High Level Monster Abilities

[Sparky McDibben]

Just listened to Mike Shea's Lazy D&D Talk Show, and he mentioned that he believes defensive abilities are overweighted for high-CR monsters. My first reaction was to think, "What are some offensive / control abilities that would have as much of an impact as Legendary Resistance?" My second thought was, "What would those abilities do to CR?"

So I figured I'd solicit some input on some off-the-wall monster abilities. I'd like to know what effect these abilities have on CR, and especially if that effect varies by tier. Unless otherwise stated, these are all actions.

Cruel Strike. Melee Spell Attack: +11 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. On a success, the target creature takes 26 (6d6 + 5) necrotic damage and cannot regain hit points by any means for the next hour.

Grasping Stone. All stone in a 20-foot radius around a point the caster can see suddenly turns to gelid mud as rotting hands reach up to drag creatures into the stone. All creatures of the caster's choice who are in the affected area when it is cast or who enter the area on their turn are restrained and must succeed on a DC 25 Strength saving throw or be dragged to a prone position underneath the mud. Affected creatures can claw their way out of the mud using their action to succeed at a DC 25 Strength (Athletics) check, provided the stone is still mud. The caster can end the spell at any time, transforming the mud back to stone.

Duplicate Selves (1x/day). The creature creates 1d6 + 1 extra versions of itself. These extra versions act on its count in initiative, each can take one action from the original creature's statblock, and each have 50 hit points. Duplicated creatures cannot duplicate themselves. When a duplicate dies, the original creature takes 25 points of psychic damage. When the original creature dies, so do the duplicates.

Reaction.

Shield of Pain. When targeted by an attack, the creature adds +5 to its Armor Class until the start of its next turn. If this causes an attack to miss it, the creature may make an attack of opportunity against the attacking creature. If the attack still hits, the attacker takes 25 points of force damage.

[JNAProductions]

Cruel Strike I wouldn't value that much higher than just its regular damage.
Grasping Stone 's save DC is way too high for an ability that can basically insta-gib PCs.
Duplicate Selves is absolutely bonkers-especially since, if original creature refers to the creature making the selves, you can chain it infinitely. Even under the more sane reading of "Original creature refers to the absolute original, not the relative one" it's still insanely good.
Shield Of Pain is a little wonky, in that it can deal more damage by being hit than by dealing its own attack successfully.

[LordShade]

I don't fully understand the premise. What does the talk show guy mean when he says that defensive abilities are overweighted? Meaning they have too much defense, or the defensive abilities "cost" a lot of CR but are useless?

[Sparky McDibben]

Cruel Strike I wouldn't value that much higher than just its regular damage.
Grasping Stone 's save DC is way too high for an ability that can basically insta-gib PCs.
Duplicate Selves is absolutely bonkers-especially since, if original creature refers to the creature making the selves, you can chain it infinitely. Even under the more sane reading of "Original creature refers to the absolute original, not the relative one" it's still insanely good.
Shield Of Pain is a little wonky, in that it can deal more damage by being hit than by dealing its own attack successfully.

Thanks, this is good feedback! Grasping Stone can be foiled by a misty step, so I think it's OK where it is. I did edit the Duplicate Selves ability because you are completely correct to point out those were abusable loopholes.

But all that is mostly a homebrew thing. What I'm really looking for here is an example of how these abilities (or similar abilities) might impact CR since these don't necessarily directly impact hit points. Or, what assumptions might need to be made about how they impact hit points. For example, should I assume Shield of Pain hits every round?


I don't fully understand the premise. What does the talk show guy mean when he says that defensive abilities are overweighted? Meaning they have too much defense, or the defensive abilities "cost" a lot of CR but are useless?

He thinks the defensive abilities cost a lot of CR, but that they really shouldn't impact CR - they're required for a major boss monster to pose a threat to high-level PCs. Ergo, we should be adding more powerful abilities to our high-level monsters to compensate.

[Keravath]

Thanks, this is good feedback! Grasping Stone can be foiled by a misty step, so I think it's OK where it is. I did edit the Duplicate Selves ability because you are completely correct to point out those were abusable loopholes.



I think I am missing something with Grasping Stone. It seems to be a save or die effect with a DC of 25 and a 20' radius - which makes it out of line with 5e design and way overpowered.

Cast Grasping Stone on the party - 20' radius covers a big area so there is a decent chance of getting everyone. DC 25 strength save or be dragged under. Most of the party will get dragged under. Even a level 20 fighter with 20 strength only has +11 so they fail on a 13 or less which is most of the time. Odds are at least 80% of the party will fail.

They all immediately get dragged under the stone.

Caster immediately ends the spell, entombing everyone so that they all suffocate and die.

They can't cast Misty Step because they can't see anywhere to teleport to. They might be able to cast dimension door if the DM rules that they can use verbal components without air or the ability to freely move their mouth or head. They can't perform somatic components being entombed and they likely can't reach any material components since they can't move. Most characters would appear to have no way out.

So maybe I am missing something but it seems to me that it would be extremely effective.

[ender241]

I think I am missing something with Grasping Stone. It seems to be a save or die effect with a DC of 25 and a 20' radius - which makes it out of line with 5e design and way overpowered.

Cast Grasping Stone on the party - 20' radius covers a big area so there is a decent chance of getting everyone. DC 25 strength save or be dragged under. Most of the party will get dragged under. Even a level 20 fighter with 20 strength only has +11 so they fail on a 13 or less which is most of the time. Odds are at least 80% of the party will fail.

They all immediately get dragged under the stone.

Caster immediately ends the spell, entombing everyone so that they all suffocate and die.

They can't cast Misty Step because they can't see anywhere to teleport to. They might be able to cast dimension door if the DM rules that they can use verbal components without air or the ability to freely move their mouth or head. They can't perform somatic components being entombed and they likely can't reach any material components since they can't move. Most characters would appear to have no way out.

So maybe I am missing something but it seems to me that it would be extremely effective.

Since it says nothing about imposing the blinded condition I assume that targets that fail the save DC are not fully submerged. I'm picturing someone in mud up to their chest. So, not able to move or attack easily, but can still see and cast spells. Still very strong, but not absurdly OP.

[False God]

Generally speaking, I agree that high-level defensive abilities are of low value. D&D is a game of offence, not defense. But playing rocket-tag was one of the leading issues with 3.5.

Typically, I add class levels to high-level monsters(That Ancient Dragon Lvl 20 Barbarian was fun), or for simplicity, just splice on offensive class abilities (the Balor with "Quivering Palm" was amusing). Yeah sure I can create my own abilities but it's typically time consuming and not really worth the investment. Adding levels is an easier way to gauge CR increases though, not 1-for-1 but easier to see the overall damage/defense increases in comparison to actual PCs rather than adding more special abilities and guessing how much stronger they make an enemy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Shield of Pain. When targeted by an attack, the creature adds +5 to its Armor Class until the start of its next turn. If this causes an attack to miss it, the creature may make an attack of opportunity against the attacking creature. If the attack still hits, the attacker takes 25 points of force damage. Some guy from Blizzard called, he is going to sue you for stealing the Diablo II paladin's Thorns aura.

[Envyus]

I think a good example of what Shea is talking about is the resistances and Immunities chart.

https://i.imgur.com/73n6rNU.png

Damage Immunity is actually a downside for calculating CR at higher levels cause it can be assumed players have ways around it by then.

[Phhase]

Since it says nothing about imposing the blinded condition I assume that targets that fail the save DC are not fully submerged. I'm picturing someone in mud up to their chest. So, not able to move or attack easily, but can still see and cast spells. Still very strong, but not absurdly OP.

Blinded condition is not the same as lacking line of sight. I took "Underneath" to mean fully submerged, as a creature partially submerged is not really underneath, is it? And "Prone" also implies a more horizontal positioning, in my reading anyway.

[ender241]

Blinded condition is not the same as lacking line of sight. I took "Underneath" to mean fully submerged, as a creature partially submerged is not really underneath, is it? And "Prone" also implies a more horizontal positioning, in my reading anyway.

I'm not sure what the difference between blinded and lacking line of sight to everything except the mud directly in front of their face would be. Fair point about the prone position though. It's definitely not super clear, but I'd rule on the side of very powerful but not totally broken in this case. But there's room for ambiguity for sure, and different DMs will likely run it different ways based on their interpretation and how bad it's crippling the party.

[stoutstien]

If defensive features aren't doing what they should why would you push more onto offense to compensate?

[Oramac]

Just listened to Mike Shea's Lazy D&D Talk Show, and he mentioned that he believes defensive abilities are overweighted for high-CR monsters. My first reaction was to think, "What are some offensive / control abilities that would have as much of an impact as Legendary Resistance?" My second thought was, "What would those abilities do to CR?"


He thinks the defensive abilities cost a lot of CR, but that they really shouldn't impact CR - they're required for a major boss monster to pose a threat to high-level PCs. Ergo, we should be adding more powerful abilities to our high-level monsters to compensate.

Overall, I would agree. Legendary Resistance (LR) and Legendary Actions (LA) are pretty much required if you want a single BBEG to compete with a party of any level. Hell, I've given low level monsters LR and LA just to make them hope to compete as a single baddie against a party that, according to CR, is a correctly weighted fight.

OTOH, I'm not sure we need to ADD any offensive abilities. Perhaps instead, set LR and LA aside as a "bonus" set of abilities for the DM to add as-needed to any relevant monster, and keep the rest of the CR calculation the same.

[False God]

If defensive features aren't doing what they should why would you push more onto offense to compensate?

Because killing the enemy is an easier way to ensure they don't hurt you than raising your AC and hoping they can't hit you. Statistically they always have a 5% chance to hit you(a crit) no matter what your defense is. But a dead enemy can't hit anyone.

[stoutstien]

Because killing the enemy is an easier way to ensure they don't hurt you than raising your AC and hoping they can't hit you. Statistically they always have a 5% chance to hit you(a crit) no matter what your defense is. But a dead enemy can't hit anyone.
YMMV and i mean sort of but we're talking about designing NPCs. the DM already has the ability to just make them instantly kill the players that they feel like it so what we're talking about is making an engaging balance between offensive and defensive capacity of said NPC.
That's why if you have certain NPCs that the defensive side is lacking enhancing their offense is moving it in the complete opposite direction you want to go. You're putting a lot of weight into when and if it even gets to act in its full capacity or it's just going to disappear. That's denial of satisfaction on a bunch of different levels.
I think the best bet is to follow the ethos of impede but do not prevent. Visual and narrative cues that they're actually making progress. If I can gain the effects of blade Ward as a bonus action every round compared to one who can cash shield at will mechanically will probably come out pretty close to each other as far as staying power but one is just a lot better feeling for the party

[MrStabby]

If defensive features aren't doing what they should why would you push more onto offense to compensate?

Yeah, this seems to be the crux of the issue.

If I want an exciting fight with elements of back and forth and lots of abilities used and needing to use the right tools a the right time and so on, I need a fight that will last more than three rounds.

If I want tension, I need something that lets the fight escalate in later rounds rather than mopping up. Personally I like to give any high level enemy access to a few spells - shield, misty step and fog cloud are common ones and hey give a bit of flexability.

I think good abilities to give high powered enemies are those that keep it alive, though without directly taking any player out of the encounter. Something that might stun the whole party for a turn is fine, something that just means a player has to sit out the sesson due to your innovative, high powered ability is not really my preferred option.

I think legendary actions are a good tool for monsters. Some healing, some mobility options, some elements of control and yes some damage adds variation to the game but without just ending someone's fun.

[Sparky McDibben]

Some guy from Blizzard called, he is going to sue you for stealing the Diablo II paladin's Thorns aura.

Behold, I have given away all my f*cks, and have none to spare for Blizzard. :smallbiggrin:


I think a good example of what Shea is talking about is the resistances and Immunities chart.

https://i.imgur.com/73n6rNU.png

Damage Immunity is actually a downside for calculating CR at higher levels cause it can be assumed players have ways around it by then.

Except it's not. None of those reduce CR, they only lower the increase; it would only be a downside if the multiplier was less than 1.


If defensive features aren't doing what they should why would you push more onto offense to compensate?

First, it's not that they aren't doing what they should, it's that they are inflating CR, causing the designers to nerf damage in response. Second, because monsters only live three rounds. Sure, an encounter might go on for more than that, but on average, monsters live three rounds once they engage the party. If (as this post assumes) these are tier 4 players, that assumption can probably be rounded down a bit to 2.5 rounds.

So if I've only got a few rounds, I don't want to waste time making some pissant little 3 points of cold damage (thanks, Auril! What a devastatingly powerful goddess you are!). I want to open big, screw with the players in the middle, and have a strong finish.

So for Vecna (assuming level 20 players), I'd probably do something like this:

Round one: Vile Speech. Vecna utters a syllable in the language of pure evil. Every creature within 120 feet of Vecna takes 150 points of necrotic damage. Creatures reduced to 0 hp by this damage are slain outright, and on their next turn rise as a wraith under Vecna's control.

Round two: Vecna's Curse. Vecna targets up to three creatures he can see. Those creatures cannot cast spells or regain hit points. Heal or wish can undo this effect.

Round three: Death Blossom. Dark fire radiates out of Vecna, engulfing those nearby and tearing away at their very identity. Any creature of Vecna's choice within 120 feet of him must succeed on a DC 21 Charisma saving throw or lose 2d10 points from an ability score of Vecna's choice. Heal or wish can undo this effect.

But again, what I'm really looking for here is to get a sense for what these would do to a creature's CR. Forget what you think about whether these are good game design, or if they fit Vecna or anything else. I'm really trying to get a grasp on what these would do to CR, otherwise I'd be posting in the homebrew forum.

[stoutstien]

Best bet is don't rely on CR to tell you more than does which isn't much. Who cares about rebalancing CR after you modify the block? We don't modify it when the environment changes or if they happen to get surprised.

[Rukelnikov]

Except it's not. None of those reduce CR, they only lower the increase; it would only be a downside if the multiplier was less than 1.

Its a downside cause its being accounted for in its CR but in practice it does little or nothing to make the creature more resilient.

As for how much would those features impact CR, its entirely creature dependant. A creature with no reactions at all, is getting almost a flat +5 to AC with the reaction you made, thats a bit above +1 CR if we follow the quick n dirty rules for monster creation in the DMG. It adds some damage on the side, either in the form of an attack or in the form of 25 psychic damage, in order to simplify this point, lets say the creatures attack also deals an average of 25 damage. So the reaction adds 25 DPR to the creature, assuming its somewhat high level, this might mean a +1 or +2 to is offensive CR, which may or may not, increase its total CR by 1.

Things will get complicated if the creature already has another 2 reactions for instance, because now this feature is competing with the others... In the end you have to eyeball it, and the impact a given feature will have will be dependant on the base creature.

As a side note, I give pretty much every monster i use from the MM/Volo's/etc +Prof to AC and +2 HP per HD. BBEGs, I tend to give "stunlock protection" if something makes it lose its action, the effect will be suppressed at the start of its next turn.

[J-H]

So for Vecna (assuming level 20 players), I'd probably do something like this:

Round one: Vile Speech. Vecna utters a syllable in the language of pure evil. Every creature within 120 feet of Vecna takes 150 points of necrotic damage. Creatures reduced to 0 hp by this damage are slain outright, and on their next turn rise as a wraith under Vecna's control.

Round two: Vecna's Curse. Vecna targets up to three creatures he can see. Those creatures cannot cast spells or regain hit points. Heal or wish can undo this effect.

Round three: Death Blossom. Dark fire radiates out of Vecna, engulfing those nearby and tearing away at their very identity. Any creature of Vecna's choice within 120 feet of him must succeed on a DC 21 Charisma saving throw or lose 2d10 points from an ability score of Vecna's choice. Heal or wish can undo this effect.

But again, what I'm really looking for here is to get a sense for what these would do to a creature's CR. Forget what you think about whether these are good game design, or if they fit Vecna or anything else. I'm really trying to get a grasp on what these would do to CR, otherwise I'd be posting in the homebrew forum.
I use the Blog of Holding CR tool, which is based on an analysis of average stats from the MM.
Round 1: Likely # of targets 3 or more, 150x3 =450. Damage budget for a CR26 is 130 DPR, so this is CR 30+ damage. It's also enough to kill most 20th level D6/D8 HD characters with a 16 or lower CON unless they've invested in the Tough feat.
Round 2 & 3: These abilities deal no damage, but shuts down all the spellcasters in a typical 4-5 player party. Technically no impact on CR because CR is based on things that deal with hit point damage. This is something that would simply require eyeballing it. If Vecna is doing no other major damage during this round then the characters who don't need magic to contribute will be busy blendering him apart. If he has the full suite of reactions, melee attacks, etc., then his CR rating would be based on that.

At the higher end, CR is a much fuzzier number based on good judgement and "Is this more or less of a threat than a couple of creatures of X CR?"

[Keravath]

I'm not sure what the difference between blinded and lacking line of sight to everything except the mud directly in front of their face would be. Fair point about the prone position though. It's definitely not super clear, but I'd rule on the side of very powerful but not totally broken in this case. But there's room for ambiguity for sure, and different DMs will likely run it different ways based on their interpretation and how bad it's crippling the party.

I agree it didn't mentioned Blinded :) ... and the wording is perhaps ambiguous but I'm not sure how to interpret "dragged to a prone position underneath the mud." as anything but submerged.

"All creatures of the caster's choice who are in the affected area when it is cast or who enter the area on their turn are restrained and must succeed on a DC 25 Strength saving throw or be dragged to a prone position underneath the mud."

In addition, it is a DC25 strength check to escape the mud. What happens when it turns back to stone with the targets either entombed or trapped? Most classes do not have a way to extricate themselves from being embedded in stone. Misty step or dimension door, if someone has the spell prepared and is able to cast it, could provide a means of escape - but that is only a relatively small subset of characters.

"The caster can end the spell at any time, transforming the mud back to stone."

[ender241]

I agree it didn't mentioned Blinded :) ... and the wording is perhaps ambiguous but I'm not sure how to interpret "dragged to a prone position underneath the mud." as anything but submerged.

"All creatures of the caster's choice who are in the affected area when it is cast or who enter the area on their turn are restrained and must succeed on a DC 25 Strength saving throw or be dragged to a prone position underneath the mud."

In addition, it is a DC25 strength check to escape the mud. What happens when it turns back to stone with the targets either entombed or trapped? Most classes do not have a way to extricate themselves from being embedded in stone. Misty step or dimension door, if someone has the spell prepared and is able to cast it, could provide a means of escape - but that is only a relatively small subset of characters.

"The caster can end the spell at any time, transforming the mud back to stone."

Yeah, it's a nasty ability. That's why I would rule that at least your head is out, so you're not blinded and potentially suffocating on top of all the other things you mentioned. But I can see a DM ruling either way on it. I just personally think it's typically going to be powerful enough without taking away misty step as an escape option and adding a time limit on getting people out because they can't breathe.

[Envyus]

Except it's not. None of those reduce CR, they only lower the increase; it would only be a downside if the multiplier was less than 1.



They artificially make the CR higher. Several monsters have their CR increased by 1 or 2 because of it, despite it not doing anything for them at the high levels. That Increase to the CR could have been used for more damage, or more HP or other useful things.

[PhoenixPhyre]

They artificially make the CR higher. Several monsters have their CR increased by 1 or 2 because of it, despite it not doing anything for them at the high levels. That Increase to the CR could have been used for more damage, or more HP or other useful things.

Or maybe the assumption that at levels 11+ everyone always has perfect ways to bypass resistance/immunity is...flawed? Also, note that the multiplier is only if the resistance/immunity is relevant. And that's supposed to be judged case-by-case. If you' have a party of all magic weapon guys, there's no defensive CR boost from having immunity to NM BPS.

For example, resistance to NM BPS nerfs mass summons hard.

Additionally, CR is a first-pass filter and guideline, not anything like an actual rule. And the calculations are only to get you into the ballpark--playtest is supposed to handle the fine-tuning.