How effective would am armored monk be?

[samcifer]

So the concept is a monk wearing heavy armor with 2+ levels of fighter for armor, better weapons, action surge and the unarmed fighting style to compensate for the loss of the martial arts die. Main stats would be strength and wisdom.

On monk subclasses I'm thinking open hand for more things to do when attacking and if I go 3+ on fighter, I'd go battle master for the same reason.

Has anyone played an armored monk? Looking for advice on how to run one effectively.

[ImproperJustice]

Hmmm, have you considered the Psi-Warrior as getting closer to what your seeking?

Alternatively, a Barbarian who acheives a “Zen state or total focus” instead of rage makes a great weapon based Monk or Samurai.

[Psyren]

Treantmonk did a couple videos on this concept if you're looking for ideas: Part 1: the concept (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opqqDSZqHzk) (explaining in depth what you gain and lose as a monk for wearing armor, including each subclass), and Part 2: the build (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C9_SujMc3k) (actually making the armored monk character.)

(GitP Disclaimer: Treantmonk videos may contain Treantmonk)

To summarize the former, since you're now strength-based you can pick a weapon like a maul that qualifies you for GWM. With the higher damage, Long Death becomes more interesting because you should be dropping creatures more often than normal, and Shadow becomes more interesting because it covers for the speed and stealth you lost by wearing heavy armor.

I'd second the "probably just be a Psiwar" suggestion in any event.

[Daracaex]

I don't really understand what the point would be. Monk can get up to 20 AC anyway once they max out Dex and Wis. Why ignore a bunch of class features to wear heavy armor rather than just being a fighter or whatever in the first place?

[sithlordnergal]

Its actually pretty effective. The only thing you really end up losing is Unarmed Defense, Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement. Outside of that, you keep all of your Monk abilities and subclass abilities. Now, a few things to note:

1) You are now Strength Monk, not Dex Monk, keep that in mind when selecting ASIs and Ability scores.

2) You either way a natural weapon, like from the Lizardfolk, or Unarmed Fighting Style. Both of these will give you an unarmed strike you can use for Flurry of Blows

3) Snag Mobile to fix your lack of extra Movement.

4) The "you keep all of your Monk abilities" applies to Ki features and Stunning Strike. Stunning Strike also works with any melee attack, including non-monk weapons. So you could use a Greatsword and stun them with it. It also means you can go Defense Fighting Style, take a Longsword and Shied, buy Full Plate, have a 21 AC, and Dodge as a Bonus Action while attacking with your Action.

[sithlordnergal]

I don't really understand what the point would be. Monk can get up to 20 AC anyway once they max out Dex and Wis. Why ignore a bunch of class features to wear heavy armor rather than just being a fighter or whatever in the first place?

You only ignore 3 abilities, and by going Fighter you can get up to 21 AC without magic equipment and minimum ASI investments. With magic gear, even if its just +1 armor and a Ring of Protection, we're looking at 24 AC, and the ability to Dodge as a Bonus Action.

[DarknessEternal]

You shouldn't even punch. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635027-Great-Weapon-Master-Monk-build&highlight=lizardfolk+monk)

[MrStabby]

A while ago I played a shadowmonk with a level of war cleric that did this and was quite effective. Great weapon mastery works well with shadowstep, and shadowstep itself helps keep you very mobile. Some extra attacks from the war cleric dip lets you go to town on an enemy for quite a lot of damage. And a little spellcasting helps round out the characters capabilities.

I think it does highlight one of the weaknesses of monk - it gets a whole load of juicy looking class abilities but mostly they just bring you up to par with what other classes get from say armour proficiency or being able to proficiently use a weapon with a higher damage die.

[LumenPlacidum]

May I plug my previous guide?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628738-Breaking-Face-A-Guide-to-Strength-Monks

[strangebloke]

It's not worth it.

Like, you can do it, technically. You end up with good AC and access to GWM for good damage in combination with focused aim (EDIT: NOT KFA, that only works with monk weapons) and you aren't as MAD because you don't need to boost DEX to raise AC.

but you have to be strength focused, which means you're giving up stealth and intitiative. You're weaker to AOE spells. You give up unarmed movement which means monk's one saving grace, their consistency at getting into melee, is rendered moot. A lot of subclass features are turned off or rendered moot.

And ultimately, if you're willing to play against type, why aren't you using sharpshooter? It's the better option for fighters, its the better option for you as well. You'll have WAY better damage, you'll be safer, and you'll still be able to run in and stun or use patient defense in a pinch. You'll get to be Dexterity focused.

It's not a bad build, to be clear. You will have really good damage or AC. I just don't see the appeal personally.

If you want to optimize damage and defense in melee, I would dip githzerai war cleric or go tortle barbarian monk.

[RogueJK]

And a STRonk who dips Fighter or Cleric is also even more MAD than a regular Monk, now needing 4 good stats: A high STR, 13ish DEX and WIS (for multiclassing), and a decent CON.

[strangebloke]

And a STRonk who dips Fighter or Cleric is also even more MAD than a regular Monk, now needing 4 good stats: A high STR, 13ish DEX and WIS (for multiclassing), and a decent CON.

This is true, but you also don't have to max any of these stats, so its less MAD in another sense. Mountain Dwarf lets you start with something like 16/13/12/10/16/8. It's not ideal at all but with AC covered you won't feel terrible if you don't boost your other stats.

[Psyren]

I don't really understand what the point would be. Monk can get up to 20 AC anyway once they max out Dex and Wis. Why ignore a bunch of class features to wear heavy armor rather than just being a fighter or whatever in the first place?

Not all games get to the max unarmored AC point. IIRC the "armored monk" with a heavy weapon comes out ahead both in AC and damage in the 7-12 range or so, and every swing can be a stunning strike.

(Please note that I'm not cheerleading the concept of an armored monk - but remember too that just because your sheet says "monk" doesn't mean that's what you have to be in-universe either. A Long Death or Shadow "monk" wearing armor could just be a creepy death knight kind of character.)



3) Snag Mobile to fix your lack of extra Movement.

Note too that you can still Step of the Wind for bonus action Dashes when needed. But Shadow is interesting here too for the 60ft bonus action teleports that give you advantage on your first swing.

[RogueJK]

This is true, but you also don't have to max any of these stats, so its less MAD in another sense. Mountain Dwarf lets you start with something like 16/13/12/10/16/8. It's not ideal at all but with AC covered you won't feel terrible if you don't boost your other stats.

12 CON is a bit low for a frontliner armored STRonk. (I think your Point Buy is a little off anyway, as that's only 25 of 27 points.) You could do this with Mountain Dwarf instead:
STR 14+2
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 9
WIS 14+2
CHA 8


But if I were to attempt to build an Armored STRonk, I think I'd rather do it with a MotM Minotaur:
Minotaur Fighter 1/Long Death Monk X
STR 14+2
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 14+1
CHA 8
Defense Fighting Style
ASIs: 18 STR at 4 and then either 14 DEX/16 WIS or Fey Touched/Skill Expert for 16 WIS at 8, then take GWM, 20 STR, and/or 18 WIS from there.

Minotaur not only gets you a boosted 1d6 Unarmed Strike to help blunt the pain of missing out on the scaling Martial Arts dice on your Flurry of Blows, but also gives you a useful Bonus Action shove effect from Hammering Horns to use on turns when you're not Flurrying. (And unlike Lizardfolk's Hungry Jaws BA that is only usable PB times per day, the Hammering Horns BA has no limit.)

[Unoriginal]

The major question when answering OP's question is: which subclass?

As pointed out, wearing heavy armor affects your movement bonuses, your unarmed attacks, and your number of attacks (as well as your WIS-to-AC, obviously), but not your subclass abilities or your ki powers.

So, you could go:

-Fighter/Long Death Monk

-Fighter/Four Elements Monk

-Fighter/Shadow Monk

-Fighter/Sun Soul Monk

-Fighter/Ascendant Dragon Monk

While using your full subclass kit, and the others (aside arguable from Kensei) would just require the Unarmed fighting style to not be penalized by the multiclass.

Now I'm not sure if it's *worth* it, because you're trading Fighter Health, Fighter ASIs, Fighter Extra Attacks and Fighter subclasses abilities for Very-Slightly-Better-than-Monk Health, at-least-one-level-slower-Monk-ASIs, Monk-subclasses-abilities-but-at-least-one-level-slower-than-a-full-Monk and at-minimum-1-ki-less-than-full-Monk, with a build still expected to do Armored STR Fighter stuff.

Still it could be interesting/fun. Heavy Armor Ascendant Dragon, for example, using AoE breaths and dodging and flying while being an armored knight.

[Amechra]

It's not worth it.

Yeah. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. This goes double if you're starting at low levels — the fact that you "only" lose three abilities hurts a lot more when those abilities are most of what you get over your first few levels of Monk (since, you know, you only get Martial Arts and Unarmored Defense at 1st level).

[strangebloke]

Yeah. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. This goes double if you're starting at low levels — the fact that you "only" lose three abilities hurts a lot more when those abilities are most of what you get over your first few levels of Monk (since, you know, you only get Martial Arts and Unarmored Defense at 1st level).

Yup.

And the benefits aren't really that large. A vanilla monk has 17-18 AC by level four and gets to 18-19 AC at eight. They're going to have a 1d10 weapon with an ma bonus attack for damage. 2d10+1d6+3*5=29.5 at level 8.

You can beat that with an MC build if you go s&b. chainmail+shield+defense gets you 19 at level 1, and gets up to 21 AC by level 8. You get 1-2 points ahead of a normal monk. But if you're doing that your damage is going to be way worse than a vanilla monk. At level 8 you're looking at 2d8+10=19.

If you go gwm instead, your damage is considerably better, but your AC isn't much better than a monk.

A gunk/kensei sniper is literally going to be better at everything than a heavy armor stronk, except specifically survivability when compared to the s&b build, which it massively outdamages.

If you want to stronk just play a tortle.

[Unoriginal]

They're going to have a 1d10 weapon with an ma bonus attack for damage.

Not many vanilla monks can get an 1d10 weapon, though. Well not at low level.

[RogueJK]

Not many vanilla monks can get an 1d10 weapon, though. Well not at low level.

A monk can wield a Longsword/Battleaxe/Warhammer as a monk weapon via the Dedicated Weapon ability from Tasha's. This comes online at Level 2. You then use it two-handed for 1d10 damage.

[strangebloke]

Not many vanilla monks can get an 1d10 weapon, though. Well not at low level.

Any monk with racial weapon proficiencies can via Tashas, so it's more broad than you'd think. Half elves, elves, dwarves, old hobgoblins. And then on top of that all kensei. Weapon master is also a half feat you can fit into your build pretty easily.

... And for slightly non vanilla monks, all monks that mc to fighter or war cleric will have natural weapons.

[x3n0n]

A vanilla monk has 17-18 AC by level four and gets to 18-19 AC at eight. They're going to have a 1d10 weapon with an ma bonus attack for damage. 2d10+1d6+3*5=29.5 at level 8.

I'm trying to find a typical/vanilla Monk with 18 AC by lv4; is there any way to do that in point buy other than the starting 17/17 Dex/Wis Mountain Dwarf?

[strangebloke]

I'm trying to find a typical/vanilla Monk with 18 AC by lv4; is there any way to do that in point buy other than the starting 17/17 Dex/Wis Mountain Dwarf?
Warforged. Vhuman dual wielder.

But mountain dwarf is just the best non mmotm race in general and for monks especially.

[arnin77]

Would straight Kensei strength monk with heavy armor be good? I’m not a fan of playing monk usually but I like the idea this presents…

[strangebloke]

Would straight Kensei strength monk with heavy armor be good? I’m not a fan of playing monk usually but I like the idea this presents…

I mean... You can play mountain dwarf, take heavily armored at 4, them take gwm at 8.

It won't be actively bad but it won't be much good either.

[Unoriginal]

A monk can wield a Longsword/Battleaxe/Warhammer as a monk weapon via the Dedicated Weapon ability from Tasha's. This comes online at Level 2. You then use it two-handed for 1d10 damage.

Only if they have the weapon proficiency.


Any monk with racial weapon proficiencies can via Tashas, so it's more broad than you'd think. Half elves, elves, dwarves, old hobgoblins.

Also Githyanki. Still, it's not very broad.




And then on top of that all kensei.

Wouldn't consider a subclass a "vanilla [class]", personally.



Weapon master is also a half feat you can fit into your build pretty easily.

Never seen anyone argue that Weapon Master was worth the ASI.



... And for slightly non vanilla monks, all monks that mc to fighter or war cleric will have natural weapons.

Well those are just as vanilla as the heavy armor monk.

[x3n0n]

Warforged. Vhuman dual wielder.

But mountain dwarf is just the best non mmotm race in general and for monks especially.

Eyeroll about Dual Wielder, but good reminder on Warforged--thanks. :)

I think there's a reasonable argument for any of V.Human, C.Lineage, Half-Elf and variants, or Wood Elf for being at least competitive with Mountain Dwarf for Monks.

[strangebloke]

.
Never seen anyone argue that Weapon Master was worth the ASI.
+1 damage on a half feat and better access to magic items is worth it.

Generally people don't take it because multiclassing to cleric or fighter is better, but if those aren't in play it's a fine feat for monks and also for rogues who want to use whips.


Well those are just as vanilla as the heavy armor monk.

Eh, there's a scale. You're still using all your class features, not just ki. Still would not call it vanilla though, I'll agree with that.

[samcifer]

Okay, here's a related question on a sun soul. Does the radiant sun bolt damage die increase with monk levels even when in armor?

[RogueJK]

Okay, here's a related question on a sun soul. Does the radiant sun bolt damage die increase with monk levels even when in armor?

Yes. You lose the ability to substitute the scaling Martial Arts dice for your unarmed strike damage when wearing armor, but there's nothing preventing the scaling dice from being applied to other abilities, like Radiant Sun Bolt, Quickened Healing, Breath of the Dragon, Deft Strike, or Hands of Healing/Harm. None of those other abilities include any language about them only functioning when not wearing armor/shield, like the Martial Arts ability does.


The big downside with a STR-based Sun Soul Monk would be that Radiant Sun Bolt is specifically DEX-based. You don't have the option to use either STR or DEX for its attacks like you do with unarmed strikes.

[Corran]

but you have to be strength focused, which means you're giving up stealth and intitiative.
Well, what good is a scout who can do nothing else? You cannot hurt anyone with a nukachu. You need a big boy weapon to do big damage. Enter the greatsword. Now, with a sword that's about 5 feet long you might get spotted more often, and anyone seeing you carrying that weapon is going to perceive you as a serious threat and will attack you. And here's where it gets tricky. You could really use the AC, but if you don the armor you'll lose speed, and thus you wont cut it as a scout. AC is reactive thinking though. You must think proactively. Take GWM feat so that you can destroy your enemies before they hit you. To sum up, greatsword yes, GWM yes, STR based yes, armor no.

ps: Bradley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA) the monk is also amphibious.

[Dante]

ps: Bradley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA) the monk is also amphibious.

Wow, that was amazing. : )

[strangebloke]

Well, what good is a scout who can do nothing else? You cannot hurt anyone with a nukachu. You need a big boy weapon to do big damage. Enter the greatsword. Now, with a sword that's about 5 feet long you might get spotted more often, and anyone seeing you carrying that weapon is going to perceive you as a serious threat and will attack you. And here's where it gets tricky. You could really use the AC, but if you don the armor you'll lose speed, and thus you wont cut it as a scout. AC is reactive thinking though. You must think proactively. Take GWM feat so that you can destroy your enemies before they hit you. To sum up, greatsword yes, GWM yes, STR based yes, armor no.

ps: Bradley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA) the monk is also amphibious.

Pentagon Wars is a very apt point to bring up here.

Heck, even the goat testing skit works, considering how whack some of these arbitrary test gauntlets people use are.