PDA

View Full Version : It's like "300," but without the half-naked men...



Darkxarth
2007-11-26, 09:22 PM
Okay, my current campaign has taken a little misstep, and now there's an army of 10,000 Hobgoblins advancing on the kingdom my PCs live in. This was sort of the plan all along, but I expected the PCs to disobey the king's orders and go try to slow it down (after sending him some sort of magical message) when they found out how close the army was to the kingdom. Instead, like good little citizens, they followed his orders to the letter and returned the capital and gave the king the bad news.

The news is this: in less than 9 days (I've decided on 7, but the PCs don't know that) the army will arrive at the kingdom's border. It is approximately 10,000 warriors strong, and is composed mainly of well-trained Hobgoblin soldiers, with a few Goblin/Bugbear scouting parties, Ogre bruisers, and a couple of Trolls. The kingdom has about 2500 trained soldiers that are spread across the land, the king has informed the PCs that he can get his troops to the capital city in 5 days and to the border in 7 days.

The kingdoms army is so small because it is bordered by two peaceful kingdoms (one of Dwarves to the north and one of Elves to the south) both of which rarely speak with the king, each thinking themselves above the human. In any event, they can be reached by magical means, but there's no guarantee they'll send many (if any) troops, likely preferring to barricade themselves in and prepare their own defenses.

So, my question is this: how can a party of level 5 characters, with an army of 2500 lower-level soldiers, stop an army of 10,000 Hobgoblins with less than a week to prepare (it would take them time to return to the border).

Here are what I would consider their assets:

*One level 5 Human Knight (PC) One tough son of a gun.
*One level 5 Human Cleric (NPC party member) Good healer, great against undead.
*One level 5 Elven Rogue (PC) Fantastic stealth and alertness skills.
*One level 5 Human Bard (PC) Good diplomacy, a couple of illusion spells.
*One level 6 Human Cleric (NPC, Grand Priest)
*20+ level 1 Clerics (Lesser priests)
*One level 6 Fighter (NPC, General)
*2400+ level 1 warriors (Army Grunts)
*Less than 100 level 2 warriors (Officers, Veterans)
*Various level-appropriate magic items (Mainly Potions and Wands)
*4 mid-level magical items to be given to the PCs by an Outside Force (Who will of course not be helping fight)

I think that's pretty much it, though if someone sees something obvious they should have and don't, I may have merely forgotten it.

I'm sure the players will have a couple of ideas, but I really need something for the General, Grand Priest, or King to suggest, just in case the players can't think of anything.

Thanks.

- DX

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-26, 09:25 PM
How's the terrain?

Balkash
2007-11-26, 09:33 PM
Any forrests, and that said, any archers? Do they have any archers?

I'm thinking, if possible, use the grunts as a meat shield, then have the clerics drop area spells on the hobos.

Any siege preparations at the capital? Helms Deep? Any war machines?

Neon Knight
2007-11-26, 09:36 PM
I'm thinking, if possible, use the grunts as a meat shield, then have the clerics drop area spells on the hobos.



What sort of area spells do Level 1 Clerics have?

Back to the OP, when you say well trained hobgoblins, what do you mean by that? Level 1 dudes that are extremely loyal, follow orders well, and maintain formation, or do you mean they have lots of levels?

Dausuul
2007-11-26, 09:40 PM
How's the terrain?

Yeah, terrain is really the key here. Is there some sort of bottleneck they could use? Preferably with some other way to stack the terrain in their favor, e.g., by churning the ground outside the bottleneck to mud a la Agincourt? Hobgoblins rely mainly on javelins for ranged attacks (at least according to the one in the MM), so if your kingdom can field a good number of archers, they can rain death on the hobs as they advance, then withdraw, screened by the elite forces and the PCs.

TheElfLord
2007-11-26, 09:40 PM
What season is it?

What is the weather like?

How long are the hobgoblins supply lines and how much food do they carry with them?

Depending on the answeres any of these could be developed into a workable defense stratagy.


To echo a point mentioned about, what are the capital's defenses? castles can equalize a lot.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-26, 09:42 PM
If this kingdom is located in an area like the great plains, almost perfectly flat, dry, land then its preexisting natural defenses are minimal and any ones created by the kingdom are very important.

Now if the kingdom is surrounded on all 4 sides by 20,000 foot tall impassible mountains and only a single, small pass (100 feet wide at most) pass exists to get through then the preexisting defenses are almost impenetrable.

Blasterfire
2007-11-26, 09:46 PM
If they wait to stop them at the capitol city, do the hobgoblins ravage the outlying areas? (i.e. is it a viable strategy to execute some sort of defense in depth in the capitol city?) If this is not the case, and even if each human warrior were to make double his points back and kills 2 hobgoblins (assuming that the hobgoblins have no class levels) before dying, that still leave ~5000 for a force 100 strong to deal with. (Note that this is highly unlikely. The more likely scenario is that each warrior kills 1 hobgoblin before dying.) That being said, the characters need some way of leveling the playing field. One way to do this is to use some kind of guerilla warfare. Because open combat is similar to walking of a cliff in this case, the army needs to be small and mobile and ideally, should only try to hamper the progress of the hobgoblin army while the core of the high level characters attempt to attack on the opposite flank with aoe spells and similar. I dont know the terrain, but if its average terrain this is what I would do. If a bottleneck is available, plug it with pcs/elite knights and put the clerics on sleep rotations.

Darkxarth
2007-11-26, 09:46 PM
Terrain: Well, the border is mainly plains and low hills, but their is a small woods near one of the larger towns. However, since the PCs know there's a big Red Dragon there, they are unlikely to suggest using the woods as cover.

The capital is also surrounded by plains, but is a decent sized city, and has its own walls and a small castle (the royal palace) inside. However, making a stand at the capital means abandoning several small villages and at least one small town between the border and the capital.

Archers: There are archers on both sides. The Hobgoblins are trained in shortbows and longbows, while the king's army generally uses light and heavy crossbows.

Priests: The less priests are Clerics of Pelor, and the Grand Priest will almost definitely push to have his priests be battlefield healers, instead of blasters.

The Hobgoblins have what I described as "savage priests" which means a number of Adepts and a handful of evil Clerics.

Seige: The Hobgoblins bring no seige weapons with them, but hiding out in the castle means abandoning the rest of the kingdom to the west, which isn't likely to fly well. And, if it comes to that, there are a number of Ogres and even a couple of Trolls who could cause problems.

Helm's Deep: The border town (which is likely to be the first target) has wooden pallisades and a small town guard (20+ level 1 Warriors), but is unlikely to have the defenses to become a Helm's Deep.

The capital city, however, is well defended, and has the supplies to last for quite a while. If the Hobgoblins overrun the border defenses (or are somehow convinced to go straight to the capital) there could be a similar battle there, though it's unlikely a high level Wizard is going to show up and save the day.

EDIT:

Hobgoblins: The Hobgoblins are well-trained, but not overly powerful. By which I mean they are level 1 Warriors, but they follow commands and won't just scatter if things look bad (unless given an order to do so).

Bottleneck: There is no good place to create a bottleneck situation between the border and the capital. Or outside the border between the army and the border town.

Environment: It is late summer, so things are warm, but not too hot. There has not been any particularly heavy rain to create mud, but if this could be used to assist the PCs, I might make it rain.

Supplies: The Hobgoblins are being supplies by a great number of Goblins working underground. They are farming and crafting weaponry in caves and mines, which is being supplied to the army via defended (but not too tough) supply trains. In addition, once the Hobgoblins cross the border, they will likely take supplies from nearby towns and villages, as well as sending parties to the local woods and rivers.

Defenses: The Castle, as mentioned above, is very well defended, but the majority of the kingdom is plains, with no significant defenses. The kingdom has not had a major war in hundreds of years, and the royal army is maintained mainly to deal with Kobold raiders in the east.

Guerilla Warfare: I was kind of hoping the PCs would go for this before the army reached the border, but they didn't take the bait. So, while it could be suggested by one of the NPCs, there is not a lot of time for them to put it into action anymore.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-26, 09:47 PM
No need to know much. Get many scrolls of Solid Fog, then spam arrow barrages or orbs or some other effect of the sort.

Chronos
2007-11-26, 09:50 PM
Here are what I would consider their assets:Do they have a wheelbarrow?

Seriously, though, a few level 5 characters won't be able to do much to turn the tide of a battle vs. 10,000 soldiers. About the only hope I see for them is to infiltrate the enemy army's command structure, either assassinating generals, or intercepting and re-writing orders, and even there, you'd probably need a good dose of Deus ex DM. Do the rogue and/or bard have many ranks in Disguise, Bluff, or Forgery?

When it comes to the actual battle, the best I can recommend is Entangles from any clerics who happen to have the Plant domain, and Bless (plus your bard's Inspire Courage). This will be something of a force multiplier, but it won't be nearly enough unless your players have already managed to sow a lot of confusion in the enemy ranks.

Neon Knight
2007-11-26, 09:53 PM
Wait. They have a big red dragon sitting around?

Send the bard with a bride. Tell the dragon that they will pay him tons of money to smash up the hobgoblins. If he says, "Why don't I just take it from you?" mention that the kingdom could probably disseminate and hide its wealth all over the place, thus making the dragon have to search high and low. Being a lazy, greedy lizard, the blighter will most likely prefer to have his treasure served on a gold platter to him rather than having to look everywhere for it.

Blasterfire
2007-11-26, 09:54 PM
How big is the red dragon? A dragon old enough to fight well but relatively young and foolish enough to fall for illusion magic (hobgoblins poking about his lair etc) could put a respectable dent in an army.

EDIT: Beat by a minute. Same strategy, different implementation

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-26, 09:55 PM
The rouge needs to make a solo run. Or 10. And kill the entire command structure in one night. I suggest poison and coup-de-grace. The King should have a couple of mages working for him, and they can pull the "Book of Explosive Runes" trick. Really, cheese or running is their only hope. But, the Hobo's can be lead by idiots, and as GM, the king can be a tactical genius.

Darkxarth
2007-11-26, 10:03 PM
I was afraid my mentioning him might cause a stir.

Big Red Dragon: The problem is that he has secretly spoken to the leader of the Hobgoblin army, and has already agreed not to 'directly interfere' with the army itself. Now, though he's evil, he's already made a deal with the PCs once, and might be convinced to do so again, if there's a good price involved or he it's highly amusing. However, the PCs would have to circumvent the phrase "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" before the dragon would even consider doing anything.

That being said, there are a lot of intelligent people here and it's likely someone will think of some way to involve him, so here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon) he is.

He's a Mature Adult, so that gives him 18 Int, 19 Wis, and 18 Cha. He's unlikely to be tricked or fooled, but as I said he has a sense of humor and has already met the PCs (on as good of terms as you can have with a Red Dragon) so he might be agreeable to a deal of some sort. He's got a number of useful little magical items, but nothing that could directly deal with a 10,000 strong army. Mostly Wondrous items with a few +1 weapons thrown in, and of course a huge pile of gold, silver, platinum, diamonds, and other precious gems/metals.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-26, 10:04 PM
Option 1: Bring all of the outlieing villagers into the capital and use the villages as traps (the goblins come rushing into the place and it goes up in flames). The PC's take the higher level soldiers and at least 1 spare horse for each solider with them and harry the enemy all the way to the capital. They kill the scouts, launch a few arrows into the enemy camp, etc. Stampeding a large amount of cattle right through the goblin camp will do wonders as well.

Your forces hold at the capital where the walls and defenses actually give them a chance of winning. But keep the PC's and about 50 men outside the walls. These guys continue to harry the enemy forces who are laying siege and destroy supply lines.

Option 2: You lead the goblin force to the red dragons area and let him deal with them.

Option 3: You convince the red dragon to attack the goblin army. If it is adult or older it can likely destroy the army all on its own.

henebry
2007-11-26, 10:09 PM
Yeah, terrain is really the key here. Is there some sort of bottleneck they could use?

If (and only if) this is the case, the situation really IS like in 300. Go read the Frank Miller comicbook, the importance of terrain is made quite clear.

Darkxarth
2007-11-26, 10:12 PM
If (and only if) this is the case, the situation really IS like in 300. Go read the Frank Miller comicbook, the importance of terrain is made quite clear.

My point was that it was an extremely difficult battle, with large odds stacked against the "good guys" and little chance of victory.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-26, 10:13 PM
I would advise evacuating the entire kingdom, and pulling all of the citizens back into the capitol. Make the place look like Fort Knox. Pile up on supplies, and immediatly begin training able civilians as soldiers.

Once the hobgoblins try to siege you, use guerilla warfare. Hassle them, don't let a day go by where they don't lose goblins.

Also, I'm sure there's an alchemist or two in town. Build the biggest bombs you can and drop them on the goblins.

As a fallback position, fortify the palace heavily. If the goblins manage to breach the city, go there and hole up.

If all else fails, get all of the soldiers together and try to kill the goblins as best you can.

Alternatively: You could evacuate all of the civilians, not just to the capitol, but to the Dwarven and Elven nations. See if they would take refugees, and allow any civilian who wants to fight to become a soldier.

Once that's done, go guerilla with your army. If you decide that you can't win, you can probably escape.

EDIT:

Oh, yeah, use the dragon. See what you have available for trade.

If you can't get him to attack the army, try trading for some of his loot. It could be useful.

evisiron
2007-11-26, 10:13 PM
Crazy mission for the PC's to take out the command structure for the army.

Once that is removed, inform the Dragon that the one he made the deal with is dead. And besides... its not an 'army' as such. More a bunch of delicious hobgoblins standing together. :smallbiggrin:

Stormthorn
2007-11-26, 10:15 PM
I had an idea. If the ground was wet, like a swamp or an area turned to runny mud pits by rain, then you could slick oil over the water and light it when the first baddies get most of the way accross. Those already in the flames will be slowed down by the water and get burned up. Also, armies have huge momentum. If you do this while they charge several additional rows of soldiers will by pushed into the flames or crushed by those behind them. The fire is also good for taking out trolls and if carefully controled can make artificial bottlenecks. This tactic of course requires a lot of oil.
I would suggest a supply caravan of dwarves or gnomes fleeing fromt he advancing army. They seem like the types of races that would consider hundreds of gallons of oil somehting to saddle a big caravan with. Also might get you primitive explosives and a few tougher-than-average caravan guards to buff up your defenses.

Even without that (or perhaps in addition to that) the dragon could use his breath to turn said wet ground (Im assuming you will allow for wet ground) into boiling steaming ground that will painfully slow down and blind an advancing army, and all the dragon did was breathe fire at some water. Clearly not interfearing with anyone.

nooblade
2007-11-26, 10:15 PM
The PCs could take out hundreds of these hobos in a day, shame they didn't seem to figure that out. Especially with a Knight! This is what that guy was made for. The villagers should call them cowards when they find out the troupe decided to go back to the capitol instead of just sending a disposable messenger.

Or I don't know, don't be too hard on them if they're young. When you read about this kind of thing in books the "PCs" hardly seem to do anything.

I think it's really neat that the group doesn't have a Mage. I could think of a few ways of doing fun stuff about that, but I don't have the hours to spend thinking through all of this setting, really. Those disposables, Alchemist's Fire and similar things, those are great. Set stuff on fire, cause some havoc, it doesn't really matter if you kill all the hobos, just cause huge amounts of destruction to really send them running.

Or I don't know, it's not my setting.

Drider
2007-11-26, 10:16 PM
re-roll character as lvl 9 wizards?...

Neon Knight
2007-11-26, 10:16 PM
However, the PCs would have to circumvent the phrase "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" before the dragon would even consider doing anything.




Red dragon

Alignment: Always chaotic evil.

Seriously. If he's a standard dragon, he's a backstabbing jerk by nature. You are the DM, but I'd consider it odd behavior if I was a player if a chaotic evil dragon was a stickler to his word when offered shinies.

If he were a blue or green, that would be different. They're lawful evil.

Come to think of it, a green dragon would make alot more sense. Reds live in mountains; greens are the forest dwelling type. A green dragon would have been perfect for this situation. Probably lawful enough to force the PCs to avoid the "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" clause, but enough of a jerk to help them out if they are clever enough.

EDIT: Assuming your going with standard DND as laid out in the books unless specified.

Alleine
2007-11-26, 10:21 PM
Get the dragon to fly over them a few times at a very low altitude. Flying isn't directly interfering.
Oh, the frightful presence that sends 19/20 hobgoblins into a blind panic? An "unfortunate" side effect.

Another way to coerce the dragon is the whole "Well, they're an army of 10,000, they have to have some gold on them. Especially those delicious looking commanders. Also, we'll pay you on top of that."

Blasterfire
2007-11-26, 10:29 PM
I dont see why the dragon needs to be reasoned with at all, this is basically your no strings attached get out of jail free. Since hobgoblin Illusions to trick the red dragon are out, use illusions to trick the hobgoblins. There is no mage, but wands and such are available I assume? One night, when theyre camping next to the forest, magically trick some hobos into going near the dragons lair all riled and armored up. Id consider it likely that the rank and file hobos dont know about the dragon, and the dragon might think hes being swindled. Better yet, have the PCs actually cause havoc in the camp before hiding in the forest and using illusioned versions of themselves to lead the hobos in.they are much more likely to respond in numbers that would mean something to the dragon.

Doresain
2007-11-26, 10:31 PM
have the king open a gate to the lower planes and make a pact with some powerful demon or devil(preferably Belhifet) to fight the hobos...when said denizens of the lower planes finally turn on you/demand payment have Everard the battle-priest of Tempus heroically sacrifice himself to close the gate you created...

and if that doesnt work, then there are a number of fine suggestions listed above mine...also have the PCs and as many NPCs as possible set up a number of traps outside the castle walls and stretching out towards the direction that the hobos are coming from...Macaulay Culkin did it, and it worked wonders for him

tyckspoon
2007-11-26, 10:35 PM
Sounds like a scorched-earth situation to me. The human kingdom doesn't have the numbers to meet the enemy in open battle, so the only practical place to fight is from behind the castle fortifications. 10,000 bodies concentrated in one place can't support themselves by scavenging the land; they'll be dependent on whatever they can loot from the human settlements and their own supply trains. Have any villages in reach of the castle evacuated except for perhaps a skeleton garrison of people who are willing to risk losing their lives in order to do some damage to the army. Burn any crops that can't be quickly harvested and carried out and herd any livestock to the castle to add to the supplies for the possible siege.

Trap as much of the emptied villages as possible. If the chance arrives, make them look like fortifications going up; that'll tempt the hobs to investigate and destroy them in order to avoid leaving enemy strongpoints in their rearguard.

Have the Rogue go out along with a handpicked assortment of the stealthiest soldiers (practically speaking, this probably just means the ones with the highest Dex.) They'll hide out in the wilderness until the hobgoblins are far enough into the kingdom that their supply lines are starting to become over-stretched. They should take along as much alchemist's fire/torches/oil as they can get their hands on and use it on the supply trains. They don't need to kill the guards or even destroy the wagons/whatever is being used for transport; just burn as much of the eminently flammable foodstuffs as can be reached. Let the soldiers handle the burning while the Rogue Disable Devices the wheels of the transports. Bonus points if they manage to spook any beasts of burden into running away.

If it's possible for the Bard to personally manage the diplomacy, he should make the case for help to the Elves and the Dwarves. It shouldn't be too hard of a sell, especially if it can truthfully be said that all they need to do is show up in force to scare off the demoralized, hungry (cause you've made sure they've only got enough food for around a quarter of them, see?) hobgoblin army.

The dragon.. is going to depend on how far "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" can be stretched. Having him strafe them with fire breath is obviously out; could he be persuaded to simply fly over them on his way somewhere else so that his fear aura can scatter a bunch? Seeing your commander pissing his pants in terror after the dragon flys by a hundred feet overhead would really help wreck the discipline the hobgoblin army needs. What about screwing with the supply lines? Might the dragon agree to raid a couple of the supply trains (he gets to keep anything in them he's interested in, of course) or strike into the hobgoblin's homeland and destroy a few of those farms and mines the goblins are using as an economic base?

If another bargaining chip is needed, the dragon could be offered taxing rights over one of the outlying villages and its nearby lands. It's probably a little extreme, but it would give the dragon a stake in defending 'his' land from the hobgoblins and appeal to his pride. And when the party is high enough level, they have a ready hook to come back and free the land from the tyrannical tax rates of the dragon.

Edit:
Weather- there are two conditions that could really help the defenders: very wet and very dry. Very wet means mud, lots of it. Which means the approaching army can't march as fast, so your defenders have more time to set up any tricks they want, and if it's still muddy when it comes to the big set-piece battle, the defender's missile troops have more time to pump shots into the giant unmissable horde of hobgoblins (Protip: Give every able-bodied defender on the walls a sling, at least. They're dirt cheap, take advantage of it. Make 'em from the hides of the cows you're slaughtering to lay in as saltbeef and jerky.)

Very dry in the plains means fire, and lots of it. This is something of a desperation tactic, but it's there. Have the defenders dig out a big firebreak/killzone around the capitol defenses. Send some riders out in front and to the sides of the hobgoblin army with some lit torches and vials of alchemist's fire. Drop fire-starters and run. By the time the grass stops burning, there should be: Many dead hobgoblins and little to no available food in the wild (creatures usually have the sense to run away from wildfires.) An additional bonus is that your capitol, which was probably built on or near a permanent water source, has water, while smaller sources in the wild have dried up. It takes a stretch of continued dryness for conditions to get that bad, however, and since the conditions aren't already that way it probably won't realistically happen before the hobgoblins show up.

Mezzalli
2007-11-26, 10:38 PM
Any chance to train people? If so, then the Army of Commoners/ Horror Campaign has some ideas.

If not, I would send the more stealthy types for some assassinations of key hobgoblin leaders while others disrupt the army's supply lines. Evacuate the civilians either to the capitol or the other nations if they will take them and adopt a scorched-earth policy. An army of that size needs to be constantly resupplied or it will run out of food in a few days.

EDIT: ninja'd.

EDIT 2: I just thought of something. Why not go to the hobgoblin homeland and start a goblin rebellion. Take away their production base and force them to divert troops to deal with the rebellion. Assuming they have the time to do it, they could try.

Stormthorn
2007-11-26, 10:45 PM
I would like to point out that my "when the fighting starts" strategy can be used in conjunction with many of these other ones so that niether has to be stretched so far as to seem like your trying too desperatly to bail them out.

If all else fails: Just have the PCs run away. Have em kidnapped by very skilled bad dudes with sleep spells and wake up a week later in another kingdom if they wont go willingly.

MrNexx
2007-11-26, 10:52 PM
*One level 5 Human Knight (PC) One tough son of a gun.
*One level 5 Human Cleric (NPC party member) Good healer, great against undead.
*One level 5 Elven Rogue (PC) Fantastic stealth and alertness skills.
*One level 5 Human Bard (PC) Good diplomacy, a couple of illusion spells.
*One level 6 Human Cleric (NPC, Grand Priest)
*20+ level 1 Clerics (Lesser priests)
*One level 6 Fighter (NPC, General)
*2400+ level 1 warriors (Army Grunts)
*Less than 100 level 2 warriors (Officers, Veterans)
*Various level-appropriate magic items (Mainly Potions and Wands)
*4 mid-level magical items to be given to the PCs by an Outside Force (Who will of course not be helping fight)


Trying to evacuate the countryside will take too long. You certainly don't have the resources to do that quickly. Since the PCs do not know that the Hobgoblins have made a pact with the dragon, that would be the reasonable place to start. You might also point out that the hobgoblins are likely to have something of a war chest with them, and that he is free to raid said war chest, and eat as many hobgoblins (and their livestock... horse meat is tasty) as he likes. You might even barter those magic items with him.

Of course, he can do that ANYWAY, but you're not wagering anything by pointing out how delicious the opposing forces are... you're just losing stuff you never had. A Mature Red is going to be damn hard for hobos to beat... DR 10/magic means most arrows will bounce off, and a 23 Frightful Presence isn't bad.

If that doesn't work, your group is going to have to practice strike and fade tactics; get what horses you can, inflict casualties, and retreat. Set fires. Tell people to retreat, and burn farms behind them... an army of 10,000 is going to have to eat off the land a bit, and while burning your crops may mean a year of hungry bellies, it means a lot more to 10,000 angry warriors... they'll have their own food, but fresh food will be at a premium.

My preference would be to try to "convince" the hobgoblins that you are hiding out in the dragon's forest by consistently retreating in that direction. Your force can get away easier, and an active invasion by the hobgoblins (it seems the logical place for you to hide, and the red is known to be duplicitous) is more likely to make the red take notice.

Accersitus
2007-11-26, 10:56 PM
Any chance of sending messengers to get aid from the dwarfs or elves, then use guerilla warfare to weaken the hobgoblins/lead them to the capitol. (Even if they are well disciplined, they would most likely focus on following the enemy force, and not destroy as much of the country on the way. And they would most likely move more slowly anticipating an ambush because of the baiting strategy)Then they can endure the siege until the hobgoblin army can be outflanked by dwarf and elf reinforcements together with the human defenders attacking from the city.
Maybe keep a raiding force ready outside the siege to deal with hobgoblins going to raid villages/make the siege harder on the hobgoblins.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-26, 10:56 PM
Crazy mission for the PC's to take out the command structure for the army.

Once that is removed, inform the Dragon that the one he made the deal with is dead. And besides... its not an 'army' as such. More a bunch of delicious hobgoblins standing together. :smallbiggrin:

I strongly endorse this statement. Not only is it tactically effective, but as a DM, it saves you the hassle of having to run a very large battle (which is very difficult).

Stormthorn
2007-11-26, 11:10 PM
I strongly endorse this statement. Not only is it tactically effective, but as a DM, it saves you the hassle of having to run a very large battle (which is very difficult).

But taking out the entire enemy command structure could very well entail fighting your way through the entire enemy army.

Even if it doesnt, the only PC that will be able to participate is your sneaky guy.

And we have no garuntee magical means arnt being used to command from extreme distance (like three kingdoms over) making getting at the command structure impossible.

tyckspoon
2007-11-26, 11:14 PM
Oh, and for the extra magic items the party will be receiving: I don't know what gp level you're intending with those, but a Decanter of Endless Water would be handy. Lets the defenders make their own mudpits wherever they want and ensures they won't run out of water in case of a prolonged siege. A Lyre of Building would allow the Bard to very rapidly raise extra defensive structures; if he's creative, you could wind up with a capitol city that looks so intimidating that the hobgoblins just decide it's not worth the time (and when they're gone, the Lyre can take the extraneous walls back down, too.) I don't know what else would be immediately useful in fighting against an army; most of the magic items are intended to be used in and against small groups. Some general stealth stuff would be handy if the party decides to try for an assassination strike.

ForzaFiori
2007-11-26, 11:17 PM
fall back to the capital and reinforce it. in a properly fortified area, each defender should be able to take on roughly 10 attackers. that would put your 2400 well over the 10,000 you need to kill, especially when you add on the fact that about 100 of those 2400 are much higher level than most of those 10,000.

TheElfLord
2007-11-26, 11:21 PM
If (and only if) this is the case, the situation really IS like in 300. Go read the Frank Miller comicbook, the importance of terrain is made quite clear.

Or he could just study the actual historical event, instead of dealing with the middle man.

I think the best bet is to take the PCs and some of the better soldiers and keep them outside the walls, while the rest of the kingdom pulls a Russia and scourch earths their way to the capital. Without sieze engines the hobgolbins have to starve them out. During this time the PCs and their troops can be rading the supply lines and starving the hobgoblin army.

D Knight
2007-11-26, 11:37 PM
i might have one idea but its a risky one at that so here it goes. try to lure the hobbs away from the captial towards the Big Red's forest. and then piss Big Red off and blame the hobbs. soyou might want dozen or so of high lv wizard with greater telaport ready.

yes i did warn you befor that my idea is risky but good luck cause your PC are going to need it.

Dausuul
2007-11-27, 12:51 AM
I was afraid my mentioning him might cause a stir.

Big Red Dragon: The problem is that he has secretly spoken to the leader of the Hobgoblin army, and has already agreed not to 'directly interfere' with the army itself. Now, though he's evil, he's already made a deal with the PCs once, and might be convinced to do so again, if there's a good price involved or he it's highly amusing. However, the PCs would have to circumvent the phrase "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" before the dragon would even consider doing anything.

Smokey the Dragon says, only you can start wildfires.

If it's late summer, it's probably pretty dry. Cut a deal with the dragon to set fire to the plains all around the hobgoblins. It's not directly interfering with their army, it's just burning some grass. If the fire happens to spread to the grass the hobgoblins are walking on, that's considered an Act of God and the dragon is not responsible. :smallamused:

Deepblue706
2007-11-27, 01:14 AM
Does either side have cavalry? Can mercenaries be hired? Peasants conscripted? Is the plenty of hay available? Are the 10,000 baddies walking around in one, huge mass, or are they splitting up? Where are their supplies coming from!?

Scouts need to observe enemy forces well. Any split in forces, etc, need to be taken to mind, and having a caster who can use spells like "message", etc, might prove invaluable.

Light cavalry should attempt to raid any supply trains the invading army tries to bring in. Guerilla warfare needs to be employed at every reasonable opportunity. Take Tippy's suggestion about using villages as traps - make sure you don't leave supplies behind when getting the people out, too.

To defend cities, prepare hot oil, be ready to use fire against enemy ramparts. Rocks are nice, too. If you can get a bunch of anything that resembles what's inside a tanglefoot bag, dumping a bunch of that outside a city's entrance might make it hard for enemies to get inside.

When attacking a good fortification, I hear the rule of thumb is having three times the number of troops of those inside - if the PCs can do something to pick off enough to bring the enemy below this mark, before they reach there, the good guys have a shot, at least.

If the PCs could ever fool the enemy into entering the Dragon's domain (or manage to get him on the PCs side), that might help. They should also attempt to turn elsewhere for help, as well. Maybe not even whole nations - simply promising a bunch of land to whoever comes to fight might attract nobles, and they might just bring along some of their own, private forces.

Darkxarth
2007-11-27, 01:35 AM
Seriously. If he's a standard dragon, he's a backstabbing jerk by nature. You are the DM, but I'd consider it odd behavior if I was a player if a chaotic evil dragon was a stickler to his word when offered shinies.

If he were a blue or green, that would be different. They're lawful evil.

Come to think of it, a green dragon would make alot more sense. Reds live in mountains; greens are the forest dwelling type. A green dragon would have been perfect for this situation. Probably lawful enough to force the PCs to avoid the "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" clause, but enough of a jerk to help them out if they are clever enough.

EDIT: Assuming your going with standard DND as laid out in the books unless specified.

Hmm... I chose Red over Green because Greens "are more likely to eat intruders than deal with them" and I really didn't want to kill the PCs off in the first session. Clearly the second or third will do it though... :smallamused:

In all seriousness, I think I'm going to have the NPCs suggest guerilla warfare, retreating to the capital, scorched earth, and fortifying the remaining villages.

Also, a Lyre of Building would be a fantastic idea, and I can see it being something an Outside Force might give the PCs. Plus, it's always nice to have PC-specific magical items. I think I've got a pretty good plan there, and another couple of things are brewing around in my mind.

Thanks to all who posted suggestions/critiques. If you have any other ideas, feel free to keep posting, this session isn't for another month, I just thought I'd get some input while it was relatively fresh in my mind.

- DX

MCerberus
2007-11-27, 01:45 AM
My question is where do the druids side on this one? If they're not decided then I recommend not doing this:

Commandeer all oils/flammable liquids and set up a burn zone in likely places the hobgoblins will be moving their siege equipment if you plan to go with a capitol defense. Any ranged fire delivery system hits the burn zone and the siege equipment sets alight from the bottom and you don't have to hit the fire-treated front. This could be a fun way to deal with a covered battering ram or towers. Of course you may just think this silly and not use it, but it does feel like a 300ish ploy.

(inspired by the Brits' planned sea defenses of the island of England WW2)

Kompera
2007-11-27, 02:48 AM
[snippage and some quotes rearranged to group like items]
Terrain: Well, the border is mainly plains and low hills, but their is a small woods near one of the larger towns. However, since the PCs know there's a big Red Dragon there, they are unlikely to suggest using the woods as cover.

The capital is also surrounded by plains, but is a decent sized city, and has its own walls and a small castle (the royal palace) inside. However, making a stand at the capital means abandoning several small villages and at least one small town between the border and the capital.

Seige: The Hobgoblins bring no seige weapons with them, but hiding out in the castle means abandoning the rest of the kingdom to the west, which isn't likely to fly well. And, if it comes to that, there are a number of Ogres and even a couple of Trolls who could cause problems.That's ok, fleeing villagers should be able to move faster than a foot army. And the whole purpose of having a walled capitol city is so that all the outlying settlements can pour into it during just such an invasion.


Archers: There are archers on both sides. The Hobgoblins are trained in shortbows and longbows, while the king's army generally uses light and heavy crossbows.

Helm's Deep: The border town (which is likely to be the first target) has wooden pallisades and a small town guard (20+ level 1 Warriors), but is unlikely to have the defenses to become a Helm's Deep.

Bottleneck: There is no good place to create a bottleneck situation between the border and the capital. Or outside the border between the army and the border town.

Environment: It is late summer, so things are warm, but not too hot. There has not been any particularly heavy rain to create mud, but if this could be used to assist the PCs, I might make it rain.

Supplies: The Hobgoblins are being supplies by a great number of Goblins working underground. They are farming and crafting weaponry in caves and mines, which is being supplied to the army via defended (but not too tough) supply trains. In addition, once the Hobgoblins cross the border, they will likely take supplies from nearby towns and villages, as well as sending parties to the local woods and rivers.

Defenses: The Castle, as mentioned above, is very well defended, but the majority of the kingdom is plains, with no significant defenses. The kingdom has not had a major war in hundreds of years, and the royal army is maintained mainly to deal with Kobold raiders in the east.

Guerilla Warfare: I was kind of hoping the PCs would go for this before the army reached the border, but they didn't take the bait. So, while it could be suggested by one of the NPCs, there is not a lot of time for them to put it into action anymore.Ok, all of the above allow you to present the PCs with the opportunity to do what you wanted them to do in the first place. Lack of hills/cliffs/forests doesn't mean that no bottleneck can't be created. The border town, it's situated on a waterway of some type. Almost all pre-modern human settlements had some kind of easy access to water, and a well only provides water for a very few people. So let there be a damed stream/river providing a water reservoir for the border town. It doesn't have to be the Mississippi river. The Snake river in Montana, USA is only 3 feet across at many points, and still has natural damns which make fairly sizable lakes. The PCs break the damn, washing away some Hobs and turning the ground to mud. Then they can do some hit and run against the bogged down Hobs. Perhaps they can flank them and attack the supply trains. Then they abandon the border town (which has already evacuated) and do more hit and run along the way, as well as some trickery such as poisoned food supplies at abandoned farms in the path of the advancing Hobs, Summoned monsters ambushing Hob outriders (Summoned by the 6th Priest or via the magic items), etc.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-27, 03:14 AM
The rivers must be forded. I guarentee the PC's can find one flask of acid and one scroll of PAO. This works especially well with a moat or a swamp.


1: Pour acid into water
2: Mix. You now have weak acid.
3: PAO into strong acid. This should be permanent.
4: ???
5: Profit!

I cannot claim responsibility for this, and I have no idea how you would hint at them to do this, but it would be very helpful.

Paragon Badger
2007-11-27, 03:16 AM
Do they have to win?

The good guys don't win every time.

If the players didn't go in the direction that you expected them to go, then don't bend over backwards- have consequences.

As for Red Dragon in a forest, he could have just taken over the treasure pile of a younger green dragon for some reason or another, and coulden't carry it all with his clawy fingers.

tyckspoon
2007-11-27, 03:32 AM
The rivers must be forded. I guarentee the PC's can find one flask of acid and one scroll of PAO. This works especially well with a moat or a swamp...


I wouldn't actually recommend doing this for the reason that it would completely destroy the local ecosystem and make it nearly impossible to re-colonize after the hobgoblins are dealt with, but if it comes to a situation of extreme need poisoning the local waterways would indeed guarantee that the hobgoblins could not maintain their invasion.

Talic
2007-11-27, 03:34 AM
Plans are the first casualty of battle, true, but I would suggest funneling the enemy army towards the woods. After all, there's a dragon there, right?

Gotta be worth a few laughs to see the enemy archers laugh at stupid humans who gave up the cover of the trees to... oh what was... AAAAHHHH IT BURNS IT BURNS

Further, at proposed battle sites, use pitch and firebreaks to establish burn zones, and flaming arrows fired by archer squads (20 per squad should do) to ignite. You let the first couple waves pass, and ignite the third or fourth wave as it passes through. Wave 5 will get pushed in by momentum of the charge, chaos ensues as waves 6 and on get tangled up... Meanwhile, the front two waves, unsupported, get crushed by a concentrated defense.

Bonus points, Trolls will be very careful in future battles.

But yeah, 4 to 1 odds are not insurmountable, but it'll take more than the PC's.

Good magic item? Wand of fireball, if the rogue can UMD. Even at minimum caster level, it'll wreak havoc on formations of low level troops. Average damage 10.5 will kill most level 1 critters.

Another good one? Decanter of endless water. Muddify and swampify as needed, and doubles as a great way to have water if you do need to damage the water supply.

Neon Knight
2007-11-27, 07:38 AM
Note that these are hobgoblins, not stupid orcs. They're at least as smart as humans. Given there are 10,000 of them, at east one of them will probably end up rather bright. Too many of these plans depend on the hobgoblins being either very stupid or acting precisely the way you want them to.

The Hobgoblins have a large number of goblins operating underground. I'm willing to bet since they don't have any siege weapons prepared, they might attempt o employ a large number of goblin sappers to undermine the castle. Makes sense, after all; both Hobgobs and regular gobs have an advantage over humans in a dark tunnel. Both mining and sapping attacks should probably be employed when it comes to the castle fight.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-27, 08:22 AM
Lesse... The terrain tricks have been covered already. That one is done.

The dragon's been covered already. Done.

The capital city is covered. Done.

The supply lines seem safe on your side, and apparently attacking them is not possible to hinder the hobbo side. Done.

The Elven and Dwarven kingdoms....send the bard ipso facto. If you can only reach one, go for the elves, ranged attacks are what you need. Other than that, Done.

Siege weapons for countering...not covered. Get heavy trebuchets, LOTS of them. With 1700 HP, they'll take such a beating that by the time the hobbo's finish 'em, they'll have lost half an army. Ballista could also be good.

The magic tricks....not covered. Try for Solid Fog and Orbs of X at chokepoints to slow the hobbo's to a pace the defenders can handle, use it to boost morale... and most importantly, use illusions. Create ghost strike teams, a ghost dragon, heck, if you can get enough casters, create a whole ghost army to route the hobbo's to the place you want them to be.

And finally, the troops. Lots to do here. First off, be paranoid, traitors are common in times of trouble. Second, get everyone ranged weapons, as it has been said. Third, get lots of zappers in your army, to build immense spiked trenches, so that the hobbo's will be stopped and you can pepper 'em with arrows. Fourth, explosive weapons could make or break this, get EVERY. ALCOHOLIC. DRINK. And make it a Molotov cocktail. Get everythird or fourth soldier to carry 2 or 3 molotovs, catching on fire will destroy the hobbo's.


More than that, I can't think of. This seems like a nigh unwinnable situation (But we've won unwinnable situations before. Kythons, anyone?), but with all the tips that are yet to come and that have been, you can win the war.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-27, 08:30 AM
Hah. I should do that to my group and see what they do (they'll probably kill themselves...)

Here's what people said thus far:
1) Fortification: Bring into the castle as many citizen as possible.
2) Arches: Lots of them. Have them attacking from high places, hidden among trees, and from behind soldeires carrying shields, and walls with arrow slits.
3) Alchemical fire: If you can make enough, use it to take out large chunks of enemies. If you have stun stones, and smoke sticks to make it hard for them to see, use these too.
4) Traps: Some random holes with spikes in the bottom and covered in hay or something. Preparing large areas of oiled water/hay and throwing alchemical fire helps too.
5) Guerrilha: Look these up. You never know what you can find useful.
6) Hit and run: Make small strike squads to take out large chunks of enemies and run away. A vault filled with spikes or fire with lots of archers behind can give a good cover for retreating forces running over retractible bridges.

These can get a battle somewhat controlled. It's good to remember that every 2 or 3 archers or soldiers must take on 1 enemy soldier at once, moving to a new target every time they fell one, to be sure they are taking away as many as needed. Of course, the enemy is already majority, so you need to keep your soldiers safe. Get some cavalry running circles and hitting someone here and there and moving away. Get the hobos confused. Bards can help keeping the hit rate higher.

Have the PCs locate and take out leaders, so the troops can't rally. A good way to do it is finding out how the leaders communicate with each other, and try to prevent it.
Find a few fast moving figures, usually on light horses to run from one place to the other, carrying news of attacks and troops movement. Standards are good to instruct and rally troops, but be careful enemy soldiers won't try to take them down.

Finally, the PCs can try to maneuver enemy troops by attacking small squads, them moving away slowly. If they don't leaders to direct them to the correct path, the troops will probably move after the PCs. It's easier to take out smaller units than wading among hundreds of foes at once.
Also, make sudden attacks to the places they keep provisions and tends their wounded. It may sound mean, but it's a common tactic. Careful, though, as these places are usually well guarded. Distract them by making splash attacks against command centers with some fast soldiers, and when they move to protect the place, the PCs can take the chance to destroy their supplies.

Basically:
1) Take out small portions at a time, with minor cost (your soldiers). Use archers, splash weapons (alchemical fire), and fast units to hit and run.
2) Take out leaders to make the hobos lose direction and morale. Use strong-looking soldiers, specially cavalry, to move around them and make them get confused.
3) Attract smaller groups away from the bigger groups. Again, hit and run against leader-less troops.
4) Attack supply centers. Make fake assault to command centers to distract them.
5) Make traps for unsuspecting troops. Several smaller traps to randomly take out troops may work better than one large trap that they can try to avoid.
6) Always keep a ranged warfare going as much as possible. Split archers in groups, so one groups shots while the other reloads. A constant, never ending rain of arrows can be terrifying (have one group shooting, and the other readying actions for whenever the hobos move). Keep them behind soldiers with shields to give them.

Ossian
2007-11-27, 08:42 AM
Pretend:False sense of strength is always a good thing. That has to be done somehow whenever the hobs are closer and it involves displays of force, audacious solo attacks and other reckless things that COULD undermine a little bit their battle efficiency. Also, never forget to let the enemy hear your bagpipes and trumpets and drums and war songs.

Take down elite units: go and recruit (the bard for the charisma and the priest for the spiritual aspect) the best hunters and archers among the population. Use them to make one or two sneaky attacks and try to take down at least the orcs (for the trolls you'd need fire or a carefully placed fireball). While it should not affect that much the effectiveness in battle, it could be ablow to the morale as a loss of elite units. And no, poison arrows are not too low for the PCs to use them.

Assassin H.R.G.:I don't suggest the assassination of high ranking generals. It could work, but it's kinda cheap and the PCs could well expect that there is going to be NO war (and thus no adventure) if they succeed. If they fail, they should be executed and thus again, no adventure. Besides, they have very little time to plan it and to gather a faint shadow of the relevant information one would need to do that. Not at 5th level. Not against 10 k strong.

Clear space for archers: it was ina book by Gemmel. Have them raze to the ground a whole block of the neighborhood between the outer city and the main battlements. Force the hobs to a long charge in open field. The debris from the houses can be moved to build barricades outside the small stockade you mentioned, where you can start taking down some of them.
Not only that, but the area you clear of the houses (demolish or burn them down) must be filled with small holes, at the bottom (2 feet are enough) of which you'll place sharp objects or pointy shafts, so as to slow the charge (easier target for bettlement archers) and kill some of them, especially those that are bringing the ladders for the siege.

Fire pits: tar or other flammable and sticky napalm like stuff must fill some more holes that the hobs are supposed to cross harmlessly, some 200 meters away from the town. One torch in those trenches and you have a smoke/fire curtain behind the invaders and good archers on their front. Again, it's more panic than anything else that kills.

Evacuation:the residents of the demolished houses need to find shelter inside the wall and to be assured compensation for their property loss. Whoever cannot take arms must be trained and equipped as a stretcher carrier. Even a baker or a potter can carry a wounded man away form the battle and carry water to those in need.

Protect your symbol: you might have a really badass warrior that inspire the others by ending lives left and right. This guy MUST stay aloive. The hobs might surround him and kill him through sheer number just to take down one of YOUR elites (just like you have done with them). Don't make it too obvious, but ALWAYS keep some average level warriors, veterans with the guts and the skill to do the job, ready to rescue him at the cost of their lives while he (the symbol) keeps slaughtering hobs.

Supplies:Forget the supplies. You won't last until they need them anyway. You have to win and win soon. Perhaps a diplomat could ask the elves of the neighboring realm to do THAT kind of job.

And, of course....NEVER RETREAT! NEVER SURRENDER!!!

HA-HOO HA-HOOO!

O.

Gungnir
2007-11-27, 08:49 AM
About having the dragon scare the poop out of the hobgoblins:

It's been mentioned that dragons without shiny scales are ********s. What's to stop the bugger from flying over the good guys on his way to the hobbos?

Ganurath
2007-11-27, 08:58 AM
Does this kingdom have laws against arcane magic, or did the local mage academy just pick up and bugger off without sending apprentices as battery blasters and such? Evokers for blasting, necromancers with fear magic, even transmuters to buff the troops would be appreciated.

Also: What sort of forces will the allies be sending? Between being Good and being enemies of goblinoids odds favor dwarven aid in some form, and I don't see why the elves can't provide some scouts / skirmishers.

Edit: Scarecrow soldiers worked in ancient China. Are there any mercenary factions available other than the dragon, preferably trapsmiths?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-27, 10:18 AM
What....you said Kobolds in the east? Send the bard or some diplomat to the Kobolds and offer a treaty of some sort like giving them land or something in exchange for a couple hundred rogue trapsmiths. Great for hit and run tactics and for trapping the abandoned villages. They could be a great asset and ally and might even allow for better relations in the future.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-27, 10:29 AM
Or better, ask for a Kobold psion with lots of Knowledge (The Planes). Enjoy killing everything.

Darkxarth
2007-11-27, 10:40 AM
Does this kingdom have laws against arcane magic, or did the local mage academy just pick up and bugger off without sending apprentices as battery blasters and such? Evokers for blasting, necromancers with fear magic, even transmuters to buff the troops would be appreciated.

Also: What sort of forces will the allies be sending? Between being Good and being enemies of goblinoids odds favor dwarven aid in some form, and I don't see why the elves can't provide some scouts / skirmishers.

Edit: Scarecrow soldiers worked in ancient China. Are there any mercenary factions available other than the dragon, preferably trapsmiths?

Mages, Arcane: There are no laws against mages or arcane magic, none of the players wanted to be a Wizard/Sorcerer/Wu Jen/etc. The Cleric is an NPC too, otherwise they wouldn't even have him. As for the kingdom, well, they probably do have a high-level mage or two, and I might decide to bring one or two of them into the capital for a little Deus Ex if the PCs don't come up with some brilliant strategy.

Allies: As the situation looks more and more difficult, to me, it becomes increasingly likely that the Elves and Dwarves will be sending aid. However, Dwarves are not notoriously fast and use no mounts to speak of, so it seems to me that the Elves will be the only ones showing up within the time limit. Now, if the PCs decide to make a stand at the capital, and let the Hobgoblins overrun the border, that might give the Dwarves enough time to arrive there and be of some assistance.

EDIT:
What....you said Kobolds in the east? Send the bard or some diplomat to the Kobolds and offer a treaty of some sort like giving them land or something in exchange for a couple hundred rogue trapsmiths. Great for hit and run tactics and for trapping the abandoned villages. They could be a great asset and ally and might even allow for better relations in the future.

That would be a good idea, if the PCs hadn't just spent the last few adventures thwarting and killing Kobold raider leaders. In fact, it seems more likely that the Kobolds, upon hearing that the kingdom needed assistance (even hired mercenaries or workers), would jump at the chance to attack en masse, knowing that the kingdom could do little to prevent them and stop whatever threat was facing them.

BRC
2007-11-27, 10:47 AM
Allies will be very usefull, and hit-and-run attacks can be used to slow the hobgoblins up. Also, capture some rust monsters, let them loose near the hobgoblins, I'd like to see them fight when giant ant-things have eaten their swords!

Fawsto
2007-11-27, 10:56 AM
The problem is pretty much solved: The Red Dragon

The PCs can use him to ravage the army, severely incapacitating the hobos war machine. C'mon. An entire army of Hobos too close to my lair? I would be a freaking mad Red Dragon right now. I'd smite a few... THOUSANDS of them just for the pleasure of it! Of course... Just make the Bard go there and tell the might lizard of doom that an army of hobos is searching for his lair to steal his majestous hoard... This will simply overun any hobgoblin army... And pehaps the Hobos will kill the dragon or leave him very injured making possible to the PCs to go and kill him and finaly get his hoard.

Also, semi-scorched land will work pretty fine. Don't polute or heavily destroy the other villages or natural resources... just get all the food you can, burn what is spare and run to the capital. Wait for the Hobos with plenty of Alchemist's Fire in hand. :smalltongue:

Crow
2007-11-27, 10:57 AM
I am sure nobody is going to read this, because usually replies to these threads are just replies to the original post. But here it goes anyways, I'll keep it short.

Your 2500 soldiers are not serving you the best they can if they stay back and defend the city. There is only so many men that can fight on the walls, and more than likely the enemy is going to concentrate their force at a few key points at a time. Due to this, you have a sort of "diminishing returns" situation when it comes to defensive manpower. Also, these men are going to be eating up your supplies each day, which will already be stretched by the civilians taking shelter in the city as well.

Leave only a portion of your force to defend the city. Your city will either fall with 500 men, or fall with 2500. Your choice.

Build some mangonels, or trebuchets. You can find stats for them in Heroes of Battle, and if you load them with anti-personnel ammunition, you can take out 4-8 hobs with each shot if they land in an area where they are densely packed. Plus, you can fire them from behind the walls.

Have your citizenry take all the food they can, and destroy anything that the invading army can use. The invading army will need to rely upon the land to survive, as the further it gets from home, the cost to maintain a supply line rises exponentially.

Take your best soldiers and those who you kept out of the city and attack. He likely had to pull a signifigant majority of his troops together to launch this offensive. (If not, and he has plenty more, you will lose in the long run even if you win this one battle.) His lands will (may?) be undefended. Send scouting forays into his lands to assess the situation. Meanwhile, hit his supply lines hard, allowing your men to subsist on the supplies he is paying for. Starve his army out of your lands.

If his lands are lightly defended, attack commerce and terrorize his population while maintaining a stranglehold on his supply line. Live off of his land, but don't put it to the torch. Make him do that. Small groups of men can cause terrible havoc when cut loose behind enemy lines.

If you can, take one of his cities or lay siege to it. If you capture it, your best bet is to sack it.

I could go on, but like I said earlier, I doubt anybody is reading. :smallwink:

BRC
2007-11-27, 11:01 AM
Another Plan, Divide and Conquer, here's what I would do.
Step 1: Talk to the dragon, tell him that theres a bigger homeland elsewhere that you will help him take over (Wherever the hobgoblins are from)
Step 2: Contact a high-ranking hobgoblin, tell him that there's a dragon whose looking for keen and ambitious minions to share in vast wealth+fortune, and whose proably going to barbeque anybody who disagrees with him anyway.
Get as many of the hobgoblins as you can to side with the dragon, have them work with you to take out the rest of the hobgoblin army, if the dragon survives, the hobgoblin kingdom just lost a LOT of troops, and he now has some left over. Dragon conquers hobgoblin kingdom and loots it for money, then hangs out there with his minions collecting taxes. Since you helped the dragon out, in exchange you get a non-agression treaty with said dragon.
Now you don't have a dragon hanging around in your kingdom, and you don't have hobgoblins to worry about.

Tempest Fennac
2007-11-27, 11:24 AM
Are there any bargaining chips which could be used to get the Elves and Dwarfs to help? Also, how long would it take for 1 civilian to get 1 level of Warrior? I'd agree with the other statergies which have been suggested. Something you could try is using illusions to make the opposing army think you are setting out to attack them repeatedly at night so that they are unable to sleep (I don't know what spell you'd use for this: it would need to be able to create noise as well as appearing to be a couple of thousand people, and you'd need to keep it out of range of the enemie's archers to avoid them hitting the illusion with arrows and breaking the spell). You would probably need a relatively high level Wizard to handle this, but not sleeping properly could result in the opposing troops becoming fatigued which would help.

RTGoodman
2007-11-27, 11:27 AM
I agree with a lot of the plans above, especially trying to get the dragon to do something if he's willing.

Here's another suggestion, though - give the PCs small missions to do beforehand. You say they have 7 days. Give them a 4-day mission that involves eliminating a prominent leader in an advance scout camp or something, and completing the mission successfully slows the army by 2 days.

Then, give them another mission to get peasants/commoners/whoever to come into the main stronghold, and then let the PCs "train" them. Have them make a "training check" ([1d20 + 1/2 BAB + Cha] or something like that), where the higher the score, the more of the peasants can be used in the impending battle.

For the battle itself, the PCs should be used to take out specific targets. Start by having them save a company of troops being attacked just outside the walls by a party of trolls. Then maybe a group of enemies, led by a cleric, sneaks into the city, and they have to investigate several buildings to clear them out. At the end, the main force of the army (the couple of remaining leaders, maybe a cleric or so, and a couple of bugbears) storms the city to try to kill/take captive the King. There's your epic climax of the battle.

Just assume the PCs are handling the big problems, while the soldiers and peasants (if they trained any) are handling the enemy grunts.

Rigon
2007-11-27, 12:17 PM
i read some of the comments... and. here's my idea:
have some royal alchemist pop up with a "theory that might work". say he has a rare recipe for a poison (which works great AND only against goblinoids) but he needs about a barrel of dragon blood (and the poison would work faster if the blood was given willingly) so make the PCs go talk to red and get some blood.
AND DON'T FORGET TO BRING A BARREL.
then make an agent come into the king's office... *ahem* into the king's throne room saying that he interrogated an officer captured from a hobgoblin scouting party and now they know that the dragon "won't interfere".
so the king will order the party NEVER to mention the hobgoblin problem while on this mission especially not in front of the red one.
"we brought a present, we have a request, and a alchemist/wizard needs to fuel an experiment, he needs high quality dragon blood, he is afraid of your great might to come here in person... blah-blah".
after the bloody mission they should meet with a royal squad(3-5 ranger/rogue) and the alchemist near the border. make them poison a river (this can work as the poison affects goblinoids only and the army must refill water supplies) or place some enchanted barrels (which release the poison). after this poisoning the hobgoblin army should be reduced to 600-1000 where most of them are lvl1 footmen who's highest stat is con and some higher ranking officers (poison immunity items / drinking something else instead of water / behind the army out of the poison cloud's reach). if you want you can make a hobgoblin avenger (middle ranking officer lost his army/chance to get higher/blah-blah, and now he hates poison) who will be a recurring villain for the party. as for the distribution of the hobgoblin remnants i would say random (4-9 member/encounter) and a small army of 500-700 hobgoblins (got refill at a previous river / far behind the border out of the poisoned area).
as for the storyline you could make a plague (thousands of hobgoblin corpses do make plague)... make the party fix the plague.

EDIT:
wiping out an army of 10000 before it "enters" the homeland is something which would be respected among dwarves (they are less likely to know how the army was done in) and the elves would most likely help the humans against the plague (respect for the plan + remorse for not helping against a "most likely common" enemy). this war might help to form trade/war alliances between the 3 peaceful country.

EDIT2:
and then we could say that the alchemist was actually a necromancer and he only wanted to create an army of undead (which he does by turning the hobgoblins into zombies). after this the party could hunt this guy for a while to get rid of the problem's core then it could turn out that he just wants to kill the red dragon as he killed his <whatever dear person you can think of> and he needed the dragon's blood to make the zombies immune against the fire of that specific dragon.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-27, 01:23 PM
Are there any bargaining chips which could be used to get the Elves and Dwarfs to help? Also, how long would it take for 1 civilian to get 1 level of Warrior? I'd agree with the other statergies which have been suggested. Something you could try is using illusions to make the opposing army think you are setting out to attack them repeatedly at night so that they are unable to sleep (I don't know what spell you'd use for this: it would need to be able to create noise as well as appearing to be a couple of thousand people, and you'd need to keep it out of range of the enemie's archers to avoid them hitting the illusion with arrows and breaking the spell). You would probably need a relatively high level Wizard to handle this, but not sleeping properly could result in the opposing troops becoming fatigued which would help.
Thunderstones can help. Have some scouts running around and throwing these at the barracks and running away.

Balkash
2007-11-27, 06:29 PM
Just to ask, or note. You said they had a fair amount of access to large numbers of wands and potions. How many? As an odd side tought, an entire army of about 500 all drank inviso potions and pop out behind the hobos, with the PC's leading the slaughter? Or can you have the clerics all use the wands to area spell the hobos?

Darkxarth
2007-11-27, 06:44 PM
Just to ask, or note. You said they had a fair amount of access to large numbers of wands and potions. How many? As an odd side tought, an entire army of about 500 all drank inviso potions and pop out behind the hobos, with the PC's leading the slaughter? Or can you have the clerics all use the wands to area spell the hobos?

Uh... not that large. I just meant that the Bard and Cleric are each carrying a couple of wands and all the characters have at least 2 or 3 potions, some with a dozen or so.

Anyway, I'd like to thank everyone again for their continued comments and suggestions, I just keep getting more and better ideas.

Grimfist
2007-11-27, 06:53 PM
I really really like the idea of making the hobgoblin army fatigued, and I think I know how it could be done with the help of everyone's favorite big red dragon. Simply wait until the army is within a couple day's march from the defense point and have the dragon fly around and demand to talk to whole camps of them at once in the middle of the night. Just tell him to use his big booming voice to wake up the whole camp and keep them awake with something that is apparently very important to him. The hobgoblins will be too terrified to tell him to bugger off, and you can bet that they won't fall asleep while he's there.

Appeal to his greed too. Tell him to say that some hobgoblins stole some of his treasure and he wants it back; he could even demand coin or nice weapons from the camps in compensation.

Edit: On top of the mounds of coin you'll be throwing his way as well, that is.

Hawgh
2007-11-27, 07:03 PM
litter poorly sealed explosive potions of any sort in front of the hobbos, kill, eat & burn anything remotely edible they might come across.

Kill, eat & poison anything they might have brought with them.

build a trap for the first few waves and hope for them to break when they get a downright hostile welcome.

Example that might work with a little goodwill: place the toughest nails of the army at the point of an arrowhead pointing towards your own gates, place archers, wizards and whatnot along the lines of the arrowhead.
Then place rocks, pointy things and trecnhes around the ranged units and have them sit down and look very boring and unintimidating.
Now, if it possible, cast some sort of illusion on the aforementioned tough nails to make them appear a very tempting and ill-prepared target, praying clerics or something.

And hope for the hobbos to charge into their own untimely deaths.

Demolish any possible buildings, cliffs, canyons, trees and apathetic giants on top of them.

Chase any aggressive and unusually dangerous local wildlife towards the Hobbos, preferably their supply trains.

pour oil all over the field of battle and fry them when it's convenient.

Ganurath
2007-11-27, 07:30 PM
Do they have to win?A valid point that I agree with, as does Rich apparently.
As for Red Dragon in a forest, he could have just taken over the treasure pile of a younger green dragon for some reason or another, and coulden't carry it all with his clawy fingers.Especially likely considering how red dragons favor mountain lairs.

MrNexx
2007-11-27, 08:31 PM
*One level 5 Human Knight (PC) One tough son of a gun.
*One level 5 Human Cleric (NPC party member) Good healer, great against undead.
*One level 5 Elven Rogue (PC) Fantastic stealth and alertness skills.
*One level 5 Human Bard (PC) Good diplomacy, a couple of illusion spells.
*One level 6 Human Cleric (NPC, Grand Priest)
*20+ level 1 Clerics (Lesser priests)
*One level 6 Fighter (NPC, General)
*2400+ level 1 warriors (Army Grunts)
*Less than 100 level 2 warriors (Officers, Veterans)
*Various level-appropriate magic items (Mainly Potions and Wands)
*4 mid-level magical items to be given to the PCs by an Outside Force (Who will of course not be helping fight)


Ok, let's try something a little different.

You're the leader of an army of 10,000 hobgoblins, mixed with some trolls, ogres, and a few others. You're invading a kingdom where the the primary opposition is 2400 low-level human warriors, with more to be mobilized in a couple weeks; they're supported by a small group of priests and some local nobles (i.e. the PCs... if they can't buy a title by this point, they're very poor adventurers). To their north and south are kingdoms of dwarves and elves. In your line of march is a small forest which contains a red dragon.

What are you going to do to prepare for what they throw at you? They're bound to try to fight. What stratagems will they employ, and how are you going to counter them.

This is what your enemies are talking about as they're bearing down on your little kingdom.

graymachine
2007-11-27, 09:51 PM
I would suggest creating a quest for the players with a heavy time limit. You mentioned an elf kingdom, which the king would be well aware of. I would send the PCs on a mission to the Elf kingdom with enough money to hire a 20th level wizard. Such a wizard would have no problem destroying such a small force, built properly. You get to control your CRs, you get to describe some truly awesome scenes, and the players get to feel like heroes. Win-win all around without getting into the down and dirty of some heavy rules-exploitation and general arguing. I say that because a force one quarter of the size of its opponent is simply going to be crushed if you want to maintain a level of realism.

Atanuero
2007-11-27, 10:43 PM
Hmm, the defenders seem to be missing lots of elements that make for a good defense-a variety of troops (the main thing here is WIZARDS) and good terrain, among other things. Can you get mercenaries and try to hold the city until they arrive? Bards can cast spells to communicate over long distances, correct? If not, there has to be SOME sort of sorcerer/wizard in the large city, all you'd need to do is have him cast a Sending from a scroll or something.

If there are no mercenaries or allies, are there soldiers specialized in mounted combat among the defenders? Most importantly, how well can your men shoot a bow/crossbow from the back of a horse? Remember, this tactic alone won the Mongols most of Asia.

Even if your men can't shoot from the back of a horse (not even well enough to kill a level 1 hobbo...), but are still ok at melee mounted combat, have them hit-and-run.

Failing that: you have archers, and a bard capable of disguising them on the open plains. Have the archers thin the ranks.

Is there an alchemy shop in town? Or even a well-stocked kitchen? A large Ogre bashing down a gate still gets hurt by boiling oil or other painful food-ish things.

How smart are the hobbos? If the bard or rogue came to them disguised as a Hobbo general to convince them to wait/go away, would it work? What about as a powerful cleric of whatever god they worship?

Is there any way at all that, if it comes to straight combat or a siege, that the defenders can wipe out a sizeable chunk of enemies very quickly? Remember, if you can instill fear in your enemies, they may run away no matter how well trained.

More about demoralization tactics: if you can make a large blast of any sort, or just something to wipe out large amounts of anything, the bard could make illusions to make it seem as if this action is being repeated. That, plus the fact that the defenders are constantly killing, should work against them.

What if you drive the hobbos into the dragon's lair? This may require the whole defending force, and some sort of powerful charge at the beginning to make the Hobbo officers order a retreat. A simple cavalry charge isn't good enough-maybe something from those wondrous items you mentioned or some 'bombs' from the alchemy shops in the city. Yes, this is a costly tactic. I'd only use it if I knew it had a very high chance of working, and then only if I could get reinforcements before the hobbo-dragon battle ends. I mean, if the dragon looked past his pride, he could simply wall himself up with magic, and you have a lot of hobbos very angry very suddenly.

Can you disrupt the supply train? The PCs can do this by themselves, although the bard might want to stay with the main force because illusions are invaluable. If so, can you stop more supplies coming in? Once that happens, you can simply bog down the hobbos between the arm and the city and starve them. Once they're hungry and depressed enough, a 2-pronged attack should win this battle.

Hope I helped.

Crow
2007-11-27, 10:53 PM
Can you disrupt the supply train? The PCs can do this by themselves

The PC's can disrupt a few wagons at a time. Contrary to popular belief, a supply line is not a little thread of supplies, more like a hemp rope. You cut a few fibers and the rope still holds. You have to cut a lot of fibers before it breaks.

This is why I suggested leaving a small defending force and going on the offensive (though seriously, nobody reads these whole threads). These guys don't have a chance. If they hole up in the city, they will eventually fall unless relieved, which doesn't seem likely to happen.

I'm just curious where the GM choo-choo will take this one.

holywhippet
2007-11-27, 10:54 PM
The dragon agreed not to directly affect the incoming army. How about convincing him to go and annoy the dwarves and elves in a way that would make them send out their troops? Kidnapping some VIPs and using illusions to make it look like the hobgoblins did it? Leave a note saying "stay out of the war or the hostages get it"? Something to make them grab their weapons and head out in a killing mood.

Best way to hurt the hobgoblins and slow them down? Pick a reasonable hill and put your troops on top of it. Before the hobgoblins arrive, surround the approaching area with booby traps. Mainly think along the lines of punji (sp) like the Vietcong used to use. When the hobgoblins get in range, open fire. The hill means you've got better range and they will take damage trying to get close to you. They will take losses just trying to get close. The bard will be handy in this regard, his bard song will enhance the troops attack bonus by a bit and hobgoblins only have 6 hp. When the hill is in danger of being overrun - fall back, ideally dropping something really nasty like a fireball onto some buried casks of alchemists fire. For the rest of their troops, keep using similar ambush tactics.

Another useful slowdown tactic is to dig some long, deep trenches that they hobgoblins have to cross under fire.

Are there any druids in the area? Sending a stream of attacking critters would help.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-27, 11:30 PM
The dragon agreed not to directly affect the incoming army. How about convincing him to go and annoy the dwarves and elves in a way that would make them send out their troops? Kidnapping some VIPs and using illusions to make it look like the hobgoblins did it? Leave a note saying "stay out of the war or the hostages get it"? Something to make them grab their weapons and head out in a killing mood.

You mean stage an attack and unite the world against a common threat? I wonder how they'd take it once they discovered the truth. :smallamused:

"You bastard! You're the one responsible for the dragon attacks?! Do you have any idea how many people died during those raids?!"
"Merely .07% of the population. An acceptable loss."

Tweekinator
2007-11-28, 01:05 PM
Bleed the hobgoblins. You only have a week, so I don't know how well you could prepare, but if possible set up any sort of consecutive set of defensive positions(with that lyre of building I believe was suggested) and continuously fall back, destroying anything and everything you're leaving behind as you do so. Defend river crossings after taking out the bridge, then retreat as they begin to reach your shore. Mounted archers or at least mounted infantry would be best for this. Try to bleed them as much as you can, then smash them at the capitol city, if the capitol city is indeed their target. Just remember to have layered defenses in the capitol(if possible), so you can fall back the outer defenses are overrun. As you fall back to smaller and hopefully better internal defenses, numbers will matter less and less until you can halt their assault.

Satyr
2007-11-28, 05:27 PM
This isn't termopylae. This is Alesia, and you aren't the Gaius.

1. Burn all supply, villages, food. Late summer means it's harvesting ime. You (or the human farmers) will have time to harvest no matter what you do (e.g. because they are killed or enslaved by hobgoblins). So, you better destroy it before the enemies get it. Burn the villages as well so the advancing army has no shelter.

2. Fortificate your capital. Rally all your troops in the capital, except the cavalry. Use the cavalry for needlepoint attack against the enemy army to slow them down. In an open battle the far numerous adavantage of the enemy and his tactical and strategical superiority ( they can move silently and see in the dark... they will flank you from both sides and attack ... at night. Good bye, human army) will crush you. Therefore, you should prepare for a siege.

3. Get rid of additional mouths. Remember the harvest? You wo'n't bring it in. No matter what you do, in the winter the old and weak will die from hunger. Cast them of now, before they eat up your (probable meager and frugal) ressources. If you lose the war, they will die anyway, and now they are actively weaken your defense. This also show the enemy that you mean it seriously.

4. Defend, no matter what. With a fourth of the military strength of the advancing army, they will not be able to take the capital by assault ( you need at least ten times as many soldiers to do so. The hobgoblins will üprobably know that, and start to siege, cutting you off from your ressources. This will take a lot of time.

5. Negotiate. Send your diplomat-bard to the hobgoblins and negotiate the terms of capitulation. Offer them vassal status and annual tributes. With a bit of luck, they are reasonable, and accept that they have won a war with minimum losses and get a lot of gold for effectively doing nothing. Your losses will be higher, but at least in a reasonable frame (You can hardly win the war) and you do not die a honorable but stupid and futile death. The hobgoblins will enslave a lot of people and will press the land for taxes, but they will not wipe you out ( they are reasonable tactitians after all and you do not slaughter the goose that lays golden eggs).

6. Get allies Try to negotiate with the dwarves and elves; try to show them that they should create an alliance against the hobs, or become the next satelite states of the hobgoblin hegemony. With a bit of luck, they force the hobgoblins to retreat and secure the influence in your kingdom for themselves. Afterwards, you are not the vassals of the hobgoblin but the "trusted friends" (read: vassals) of the Elves and Dwarv es. That doesn't change that much, but at least those are nicer than the goblinoids.

Crow
2007-11-28, 05:45 PM
2. Fortificate your capital. Rally all your troops in the capital, except the cavalry. Use the cavalry for needlepoint attack against the enemy army to slow them down. In an open battle the far numerous adavantage of the enemy and his tactical and strategical superiority ( they can move silently and see in the dark... they will flank you from both sides and attack ... at night. Good bye, human army) will crush you. Therefore, you should prepare for a siege.

While you are correct about fighting an open battle, and the eventual defeat, you are wrong about pulling everybody back to the capital. The enemy doesn't need to storm the city, and can starve you out. The more troops you pack into the city, the less return you get from those troops. Your cavalry conducting those attacks, unless it has a signifigant advantage in numbers will be outmaneuvered and routed by the enemy cavalry, especially without infantry support, and that doesn't take into account arrow fire from the enemy force.

If you insist on fighting, I would pursue a "water" approach similar to what I outlined earlier. Go where his army is not. Wars aren't won by throwing away your soldiers in desperate defense actions.


5. Negotiate. Send your diplomat-bard to the hobgoblins and negotiate the terms of capitulation. Offer them vassal status and annual tributes. With a bit of luck, they are reasonable, and accept that they have won a war with minimum losses and get a lot of gold for effectively doing nothing. Your losses will be higher, but at least in a reasonable frame (You can hardly win the war) and you do not die a honorable but stupid and futile death. The hobgoblins will enslave a lot of people and will press the land for taxes, but they will not wipe you out ( they are reasonable tactitians after all and you do not slaughter the goose that lays golden eggs).

I endorse this statement. If only because you have little chance to win to begin with.


6. Get allies Try to negotiate with the dwarves and elves; try to show them that they should create an alliance against the hobs, or become the next satelite states of the hobgoblin hegemony. With a bit of luck, they force the hobgoblins to retreat and secure the influence in your kingdom for themselves. Afterwards, you are not the vassals of the hobgoblin but the "trusted friends" (read: vassals) of the Elves and Dwarv es. That doesn't change that much, but at least those are nicer than the goblinoids.

Unfortunately these allies will be unable to mobilize in time to meet the threat. More likely this would be a course you pursue in addition to the course above.

Get your soldiers out of the city and seek asylum in your allies' lands.

random11
2007-11-28, 05:46 PM
Do they have to win?

The good guys don't win every time.

If the players didn't go in the direction that you expected them to go, then don't bend over backwards- have consequences.


I second that.

Nothing like a destroyed land filled with fugitives to protect as a source of a good campaign.
After something like this, even if the horde of orcs is actually pushed away, you still have plenty of need for heroes to help and restore the land.

Darkxarth
2007-11-28, 05:47 PM
This isn't termopylae. This is Alesia, and you aren't the Gaius.

1. Burn all supply, villages, food. Late summer means it's harvesting ime. You (or the human farmers) will have time to harvest no matter what you do (e.g. because they are killed or enslaved by hobgoblins). So, you better destroy it before the enemies get it. Burn the villages as well so the advancing army has no shelter.

2. Fortificate your capital. Rally all your troops in the capital, except the cavalry. Use the cavalry for needlepoint attack against the enemy army to slow them down. In an open battle the far numerous adavantage of the enemy and his tactical and strategical superiority ( they can move silently and see in the dark... they will flank you from both sides and attack ... at night. Good bye, human army) will crush you. Therefore, you should prepare for a siege.

3. Get rid of additional mouths. Remember the harvest? You wo'n't bring it in. No matter what you do, in the winter the old and weak will die from hunger. Cast them of now, before they eat up your (probable meager and frugal) ressources. If you lose the war, they will die anyway, and now they are actively weaken your defense. This also show the enemy that you mean it seriously.

4. Defend, no matter what. With a fourth of the military strength of the advancing army, they will not be able to take the capital by assault ( you need at least ten times as many soldiers to do so. The hobgoblins will üprobably know that, and start to siege, cutting you off from your ressources. This will take a lot of time.

5. Negotiate. Send your diplomat-bard to the hobgoblins and negotiate the terms of capitulation. Offer them vassal status and annual tributes. With a bit of luck, they are reasonable, and accept that they have won a war with minimum losses and get a lot of gold for effectively doing nothing. Your losses will be higher, but at least in a reasonable frame (You can hardly win the war) and you do not die a honorable but stupid and futile death. The hobgoblins will enslave a lot of people and will press the land for taxes, but they will not wipe you out ( they are reasonable tactitians after all and you do not slaughter the goose that lays golden eggs).

6. Get allies Try to negotiate with the dwarves and elves; try to show them that they should create an alliance against the hobs, or become the next satelite states of the hobgoblin hegemony. With a bit of luck, they force the hobgoblins to retreat and secure the influence in your kingdom for themselves. Afterwards, you are not the vassals of the hobgoblin but the "trusted friends" (read: vassals) of the Elves and Dwarv es. That doesn't change that much, but at least those are nicer than the goblinoids.

1. I can agree with burning or ruining the food that cannot be harvested or taken, and I can agree with fortifying the villages, or trapping them, but I think the PCs (not to mention the King and the citizens) will have a hard time flat-out deestroying their villages.

2. Already have plans for suggesting it to the PCs, that's one of the reasons I'm giving the Bard a Lyre of Building.

3. None of the PCs (except maybe the CN Rogue) would agree to abandoning the elderly and the sick, and the King wouldn't either. Yes, it would show the Hobgoblins that we're serious about defending ourselves from a seige, but it would also be strictly against a mostly NG kingdom.

4. A good defense is in the works, but I think that a few good offensives are necessary to get the Hobgoblins to leave. With their supply trains (and theoretical access to the wilds of the kingdom) they can last quite a while as well.

5. Negotiating is probably not a desirable option for the Knight, the Rogue, and the NPC General, but the Cleric, Bard, and NPC Priest might be able to convince the King to give up the west half of the kingdom to the Hobgoblins as long as they can save the people.

6. They would be much more agreeable to receiving the aid of the Dwarves or the Elves and then being indebted to them than negotiating with the invading Hobgoblin army.


EDIT: I agree with Crow on #4 (and yes, I did read your entire post Crow) but it's not a very quick solution. They could move against the Hobgoblins supply caves and towns, but by the time that get there the enemy will already have begun attacking the capital, and will have already ravaged most of the western kingdom.

Wars aren't won by throwing everything you've got into defense, but attacking the enemies' lands at the same time they're attacking yours is not always the best solution, especially when their army vastly outnumbers your defense and your army might not vastly outnumber their defense.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-30, 09:58 PM
Don't forget to tell us how it turns out!

Alex12
2007-11-30, 10:24 PM
Caltrops. Caltrops are your friends for they are pointy and sharp and slow the enemy down.

MrNexx
2007-11-30, 10:52 PM
Caltrops. Caltrops are your friends for they are pointy and sharp and slow the enemy down.

Very good point. They're also very easy for any village blacksmith to turn out en masse (make 4 nails, spot weld their ends together; DC of 5 as a very simple item). If they break once they've been stepped on, GOOD!

The difficulty is that you have to lay them out where they're going to get stepped on.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-30, 11:05 PM
The difficulty is that you have to lay them out where they're going to get stepped on.

Well, illusion magic's out since they're too low-level to cast anything that lasts long enough, but they could do well with mundane camouflage. Throw a makeshift moat around the castle, fill it with debris (and maybe some posts to slow them down), and bury caltrops just under the surface. Alternatively, if there's a pass or some other chokepoint, you could fill that with caltrops as well. At the very least, you'll either slow them down as they either clear away the debris or leave a bunch of hobgoblins with foot wounds. Unfortunately, it's really easy to fix a caltrop wound (either spend ten minutes dressing it, toss a cure minor wounds their way, or make them walk it out for the next day), so you'll have to time this with an ambush to make much use of it.

Darkxarth
2007-11-30, 11:14 PM
Don't forget to tell us how it turns out!

I'll be sure to let you know.

Unfortunately, it probably won't happen until mid-late January. But, I've book-marked this thread and may (if it isn't past its necromancy date) revive it with a description. At the very least, I'll create a new thread and link to this one.

- DX

Anteros
2007-11-30, 11:16 PM
Well as far as the "just leave 500 men guarding the walls" theory goes, it makes no sense. Sure you may be only able to place 500 men upon the wall at any given time, but soldiers need to eat, sleep, and generally rest so there would have to be some kind of rotation of units during a seige. Not to mention several reserve units that have to be kept back at all times in order to fill any breaches. In all honesty, unless you just have oodles of extra troops, you need to leave them all on the defensive. (Except for harassing actions, attacks upon supply lines, etc.) And you don't really have to worry about a long drawn out seige, with elf, dwarf, and dragon neighbors, because all of these are eventually going to get tired of there being a huge army of hobbies on their doorstep.

Attacking enemy lands is not going to slow the enemy advance, because they will get to you long before you get to them if they are already on the march.

To those who are suggesting things like "burn your villages" and "give up your elderly" you are severely underestimating the effect of morale upon an army. A soldier is alot more likely to risk his life to defend his elderly mother than he is to defend the castle of the guy who sacraficed her. It's not a video game, and the npcs should react accordingly.

Also the "an army in a properly fortified position should be able to defend against an army 10 times it's size" is just wrong. I believe the actual number to be closer to 3 or 4 times.

As for the PCs, why not just give them free reign? That is the entire point of the game after all, and if they lose then they lose.

Also the dragon seems to be a bit of deus ex machina. If you're going to use it in the PCs favor at least make sure that they earn it.

Crow
2007-11-30, 11:48 PM
Well as far as the "just leave 500 men guarding the walls" theory goes, it makes no sense. Sure you may be only able to place 500 men upon the wall at any given time, but soldiers need to eat, sleep, and generally rest so there would have to be some kind of rotation of units during a seige. Not to mention several reserve units that have to be kept back at all times in order to fill any breaches. In all honesty, unless you just have oodles of extra troops, you need to leave them all on the defensive. (Except for harassing actions, attacks upon supply lines, etc.) In all honesty attacking enemy lands is not going to slow the enemy advance, because they will get to you long before you get to them if they are already on the march.

The problem with this is that all your guards that are not "on shift" are going to be waking up to defend your castle if the place gets stormed. Hell, they had better be. You'll probably never have 500 guards "on watch". Meanwhile, to mount an effective siege, your enemy needs to completely surround the city being besieged, or they run the risk of somebody being able to resupply your city indefinately (meaning they have to attack to take the city), or your units sallying out and hitting them or their supply trains with impunity. The result of this is that they will need to be spread pretty thin. When you attack a castle it is one thing, but cities are huge. That's a lot of ground for 10,000 men to cover. This is assuming no natural terrain features which do the enemy's job for them.

With your 1500-2000 strong force outside, ravaging their supply lines and possibly making strikes against their holdings (you may have noticed, or not, that I outlined sending scouting forays in first to gauge his defensive capabilities), you force them to spread their troops even thinner, thus weakening their siege attempt even further. In this case, you get more return on your troops, than if they had been inside the walls.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 01:40 AM
well, here is my take on the situation...

Defense is hopeless with such open terrain and such a vast army arrayed against you. If you could fight 2-1 with magical and siege support behind walls, you might be ok...but 4-1 and you are gonna lose to shear numbers. Also, when they can just wait you out...forget it...you're castle will be on fire and things will just go downhill fast.

Plans:

1: Allies - Send the elf to the elves to try and illicit aid...anything would help, tactics would depend on if they can spare anything. Since elves normally live in wooded areas and the army will need wood for siege weapons, fires, etc...it is pretty clear they will come near their lands to get supplies, and with some of the oter plans, it might be clear that they will be trying to forage their lands as well...Send the bard to the dwarves, possibly with one of the priests to negotiate for assistance. You will be needing arms and armor, arrows, more crossbows and bolts...if anything you can get supplies...if they are better, they can get an ally who will help them destroy the army...more on that in a bit. Also, the dragon is a good idea if they can find a way to work it out...if tey choose to do this, send the bard here and the cleric to the dwarves alone, or send the king with an honor guard...the fighter has other work to do. Part of their missions to the other kingdoms will be to secure permission for the citizens of the human lands to establish temporary refugee camps inside their boarders, or at least safe passage to somewhere safe through their lands. If possible, the ones who go tothe dwarves should try their best to negotiate and establish a training camp to get some able bodied peasants into the fighting later on...

2: Evacuation - all citizens and non-fighting personell need to leave and leave fast...runners need to be sent to every corner and evacuate people...if possible take supplies to the keep for a monthlong siege, but take most of them with them and tell them to go to another kingdom as refugees temporarily...they cannot be protected, save the kingdom by surviving. Livestock and crops that cannot be taken should be killed/burned. If possible, oil soak the gound and lay traps to burn the crops as the enemy comes to plunder/forage.

3: Harrassment - If the dragon can be convinced...I would have him attack the goblins...probably not the supply convoys, those will be needed. The fighter should lead men into the field along with some officers, several squads of probably 10 men each and a wizard and cleric. These should be the stealthiest men...an army that large will likely camp in sections. These sections will be the targets...the men will approach sections at night and the wizards will cast sleep (if they have wands of sleep even better), then under silence if possible, creep in and kill everyone they can while not raising any alarm. This will help whittle away the enemy and cause a morale problem for them...the bands will have to pick a rendevous and coordinate their attacks. Other groups will be used to slip behind the army and intercept any supplies they can to deliver to the men in the field. (the human army in the field will take whatever supplies they can from the villiagers being evacuated that they cannot use or can spare).

4: Showdown - the PC's should meet back at the castle to lead the defence of the castle...depending on the castle, no more than half the troops wil be necessary to defend the walls properly...any more would only be needed in the case of a breach...since a breach is unlikely too fast...there is little to fear. by now they should have an idea if they can expect help or not and when. Hopefully, someone has sending or the like for comunication so they can keep in touch. They should fight as long as they can and try to plan the next stage if help will arrive.

5: The reverse trojan horse - there will be a point where they will start to be weary and lacking supplies and will need to push hard...this is when the big part of the plan comes in. The night before, the party and the best people hide. If before the siege or during it a space can be made where everyone can hide...even better...mainly, you'll need a way to hide people in the throne room. In the night, those who can't hide (if any) will set the supplies that can't be hidden too on fire and take off through a prepared passage out to join the rest of the army in hiding. When the hobgoblins take the castle the next day, they will at a predetermined time/signal pop out of hiding and attack (might be longer). The hobgoblin leader should be in the throne room and most of the hobgoblin army should have been sent to deal with the constant attacks against their rear (which should not have stopped). With the castle secure and the defenders gone, they should have no need for a full defence. If all goes well the defenders should be able to kill the leaders and get away, or with enough of them, retake the castle while capturing whatever supplies the hobgoblins brought with them inot the castle.

5b: the rear guard - The external army should be led by the general. They should have continued to attack every convoy carrying supplies and continued night attacks against hobgoblin camps. They should also try and kill any messengers/foragers they can find. Hit and run is their game. Their second priority is to meet up with any allies that they should know are comming or not. If there are allies, the time to strike is the predetermined time when the PC's go into hiding. With allies and fighting an army that has been deprived of supplies, forrage, and any plunder and has liekly used up alot of missles and men...the combined arms of the men/dwarves/elves or combinations thereof will likely be enough to break a tired and hungry army. Especially if the leaders of the army have been killed by the PC's.

What they have to offer allies...the PC's have treasure to offer the dragon, as well as the location of a rich mine (the goblin one) that will provide the dragon with even more wealth and food...he just needs to take care of and enslave the surviving goblins. The PC's will agree to bring the dragon tribute in exchange for such help...even treasure crafted by dwarves...

Dwarves - the chance to bash goblinoid heads is pretty self explanitory, also, new contracts to supply and retrain a larger army to strike back against their enemies. Also, they can feel free to offer a share of the dragon hoard if the dwarves would also supply some bribe treasure to placate the beast for the time being to ensure that it only interferes on their behalf and noone elses.

Elves - since the hobgoblins would no doubt venture into their lands in search of food and wood given the scorched earth path that the humans will be forced to take, it is in their best interest to help...might be some other deal that can be struck...

post siege wrapup -

A - Fail: if no allies can be found, at the very least they shoul be able to kill the head and get the hell out. At that point they need to rendevous with the army and go to the king/refugees and try again to get help or start training more men. Dwarven lands would probably be best. Likely the hobgoblins will be out of supplies and not be abel to get any so they will need to leave and go to the mines and reestablish supply...leaving a great time to strike the undermanned garrison they leave behind with fresh trained conscripts.

B - Success: they get allies to help them crush and scatter the army, train men to replace the fallen and build up a good defence force to strike back against the hobgoblins...they might be back and soon...deals with the dragon should be upheld for a time so that the dragon grows complacent...when the PC's are high enough, their tribute to the dragon will be death and the horde seized to rebuild the kingdom and pay off allies if necessary.

Mix forces as necessary to do what must be done...all horses should be with the outer army and used for raids.

That is my take on it all.

Azukius
2007-12-01, 02:15 AM
Find a level one kobold, pay him lots to help you, ensure he has a high Knowledge(religion) check . . .

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-01, 02:45 AM
How would the Kobold help?

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 02:46 AM
How would the Kobold help?

a reference to Pun-Pun...the most powerful character ever to be thought up by cheesy gamers looking for an exploitable mechanic to create an infinite loop to create an infinitely powerful character.

Alex12
2007-12-01, 02:56 AM
How would the Kobold help?

Pun-Pun. Omnipotence at level 1.

EDIT:gah, ninja'd

Anteros
2007-12-01, 02:58 AM
Well certainly is an intriguing idea Crow, but I'm not entirely sure where you want the 2000 men to reside when they arent striking out at the enemy. An addition to this is, sure taking those men out of the city makes the city easier to feed, but it's a logistical nightmare to support that army. Considering the scorched earth policies that have been recommended, and the fact that most of the food will be stockpiled inside of the city, it seems a bit unlikely to expect this force to be sustained entirely from capturing enemy supply trains. Of course here we're really getting away from the spirit of the thread as most DMs probably won't bother with such details.

Also, by my comment of keeping the defenders inside of the city I was referring in regards to a drawn out seige. If the enemy is simply going at the city as one massive assault then naturally tactics change.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 03:06 AM
Pun-Pun. Omnipotence at level 1.

EDIT:gah, ninja'd

I keep missing the way you get it at level 1...I think you summon some demon and get him to give you a wish (Dm dependant but technically within the 'norm' of the demon's writup)...then you wish for something...I think you wish for a candle of invocation to summon an efreet to get 3 wishes...one of which is to make you a reptile race and other wishes to get another candle and something else...maybe transport off th eprime I think.

You use the second candle to summon a sarruk (this is why you need to be off plane, I think) and get it to use it's ability to grant you it's same ability...which you then give to your familiar...then you let the fun fly, buffing stats to godly proportions and beyond and granting every single ability under the sun. I think you can also grant spell like and supernatural abilities...of course this means, you can do anything as first level and will have as high as an ability score as you choose...

There is another trick to become a god as well, but I don't remember...

Satyr
2007-12-01, 04:43 AM
Evacuating people in a soon-to-be sieged stronghold is a great example for morally superior, but intellectual inferior tactics. You weaken your position, and make it easier for the enemy to wait until you run out of supplies.
This is war; you can chose if you want to be nice and good, or to win.



You're the leader of an army of 10,000 hobgoblins, mixed with some trolls, ogres, and a few others. You're invading a kingdom where the primary opposition is 2400 low-level human warriors, with more to be mobilized in a couple weeks; they're supported by a small group of priests and some local nobles (i.e. the PCs... if they can't buy a title by this point, they're very poor adventurers). To their north and south are kingdoms of dwarves and elves. In your line of march is a small forest which contains a red dragon.

I would advance slowly and controlled; I am in the superior position, therefore there is no need to rush into things and leave my supply lines unprotected. I sent heralds to any human noble in the country offering them friendship and life in exchange for tribute if they accept my superiority to spread discord among the enemy and reduce the number of defenders.

I sent Goblin scouts everywhere I could and collect as much information as possible. Since my Goblin Scouts are way superior to their human senses, they are rarely captured and I have quite reliable reports.
Likewise, I use elite Hobgoblin Rangers or something (I will probably have only a handful, but this shall suffice) as scout hunters, shooting the enemy blind and deaf.

With a bit of luck, I will constantly be better informed about troop strength, location etc. than the enemy.

The next step are dependant from my objectives for this war. What do I want? Money? Land for settlements? Revenge for centuries of genocide of goblinoids? In the first case, I don't want to destroy the enemies economy - how is he going to pay me if I leave him nothing to pay? Milking the cow is difficult if it's dead.
If I want free space, I want to destroy the Infrastructure, and wipe out or drive away the residents, but I want not to burn the land and make it inaccessible for my own people; that would be stupid. If I'm only there to let them suffer for the crimes towards my people, I don't care. Exterminate them, and salt the earth, so they'll never come back. Turn the land into a desert. I do not like this course, because it will probably lead to the destruction of my beautiful army.

If I am looking forward to create a constantly paying vassal state (which is probably the "normal" way of war), I want them to fear me and I want them to think that they are better of to submit than fight me. Therefore, I have to demonstrate my vast military superiority without creating pure desperation; carnages of civilians will only lead to a stronger resolve of the defenders; therefore I won't kill them all off. I will attack, and overrun in a the frontier settlements using my mercenaries as fast as possible. That way, I spread panic, because my army seems unstoppable, second, I don't have to pay the mercenaries any more. I will take the young and healthy ones (those who could come back as pesky soldiers) as slaves. The rest - the elder people, the children, the harmless ones - are send to flee to the enemy's strongholds, to spread panic and to weaken their defense buy feeding off their supplies.
I will actively hinder my soldiers from committing atrocities, and I will treat enemy officers and nobles as respected guests (and hostages). Those humans, whio submit to my rule, can stay where they are. I will let my favourite artist tattoo their faces with symbols of friendship and trust (therefore they are marked as traitors to their own kind and are better off not to betray me) and I leave a token guard of soldiers behind. I will pay bards to write great songs about the heroic struggle of both sides and praise the wisdom of the collaborators to befriend and not fight my unstoppable force.

If I'm looking for free space for settlements, I will do mostly the same thing, but with much less care for the victims. Still, I'm better off not to kill their refugees - either the defenders themselves or the hunger will do that for me. Carnages are a great waste of time and energy.

If I'm out for blood, I'll send them away in a panic as well, but I'm going for sure, that there is no place to ever come back to; I’ll destroy every hut, salt every field and burn down every wood.

If I have he magical resource to pull this off, I send two small groups of cavalrymen with a wizard to the dwarf and elf frontier and let them cloak as dwarves or respectively elves and plunder, pillage and kill as many people as possible, to make sure, that the humans are as afraid of the elves and dwarves as they are afraid of me. Divide et impera.
Likewise, hobgoblin riders (mobility is the key because the plot fails if my raiders are captured) are sent to Elfland and Dwarfland disguised as humans. If I have already human auxiliary troops I'll sent them instead.

If the enemy troops are stupid enough to engage in open battle, I will use my clerics to bolster my troops strength, and as many bards to encourage my troops as I can get. Since I'm at least superior on a 3:1 ratio, I will try to make the centre to and attack at night. My troops are absolutely fine to fight in darkness, the humans are not. fight defensively (using the remaining trolls) and let the flanks close the in. My centre is not to advance; it shall only hold. The flanks will crush them, and if the attack is well coordinated they will crush them synchronically.
If it is done right, I'll send them running in one specific direction. Their heavier armoured troops will not run very fast and therefore not very far. In the best case, I capture their staff of generals and force them to negotiate. If they refuse, I'll statute an example on them, and sent their flayed skins to the king. Either way, the military leaders are not to get freed at any costs. Killing the intelligence of the enemy weakens them more than killing their troops.

If they don't engage in open battle, and prepare to defend their capital with as many troops as possible, I will need to siege them. I will use my troops and as many slaves as I could lay hands on until now, to build a two sided defensive system of palisades, one to protect my troop's rear, and one to enclose in the sieged town. This double wall will let me protect my supplies, make it impossible for any outside forces to lift the siege and if have to exploit the slaves as hard as possible, it's not that problematic.

Every day, I will invite the king and his council to a feast. I'll offer him moderate (*hehehe*) terms of surrender - he will stay the ruler of the land (and he and his council will be tattooed as well) but he will rule in my name and through my grace. He will have to pay tribute, or, better said taxes, and I will take his children (and those of his more important nobles as "respected guests" to my homelands where hey are educated until they think and feel as hobgoblins. I will leave garrisons of troops in every city and several troops to patrol the smaller towns.
I will humiliate their priests and make sure, that their gods are shown as impotent and unnecessary. If I must, I'll pay a vast number of bards again to do so. Afterwards, I sent missionaries of my faith to the conquered land. Veterans who fought well will get own land as yeomen in the conquered country. I will to transplant a group of loyalists in the new vassal state, to make sure that a revolt of the humans is automatically confronted with said veterans.
My officers and loyal chiefs will get the fiefdoms of the slayed human nobles. There'll be a few. Craftsmen who are able to produce weapons are 'encouraged' to move eastwards into hobgoblinland. Wizards, nobles and Clerics are likewise educated at home and sent back only after I'm sure, that they are loyal. Likewise, I'll try to learn as much as possible from the humans in regard of technology and technical lore. I will educate (read: brainwash) their elite into submission and loyalty. And I'll give them the laws and juridiction of the hobgoblins. Ius hobgoblina, pax hobgoblina. There is nothing better for me than a lawful neutral society with a lawful evil ruling caste.

Now I wait a decade or three, until the humans are used to the hobgoblin rule. Both countries could regenerate, the mutual pax hobgoblina and the exchange of people have bonded both states together. No we repeat the whole lesson with those pesky elves, and make sure that the mutual military struggle of my hobgoblins and humans will bond them even stronger together. After the Elves are subjugated as well, I'll do the same with the dwarves. Or I just wipe out those goblinoid slaying little bastards.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 06:12 AM
Nice strategem for team evil Satyr. Note that with the slow cautious advance people will likely be able to retreat out of the approaching army's way and depending on how fast the scouts and rangers move might give the humans time to contact dwarves and elves first...especially if there are magical modes of communication available.

Hmm...lets see how that plan would work against the plan I proposed...

Since the goblinoid army is 7 days from the boarder, likely the word will get to the allies first and the evacuation started of all civilians along with the burning of fields and taking/burning of provisions by the civilians and army. Unless riders are swift and well ahead of the army, these refugees wil not be caught up by the advancing army and harrasment of the column should start as the goblinoid van reaches the boarder.

Protected supply lines means less troops near the front, and large numbers of skirmishers encircling the country side means widely scattered troops likely with 3.5 main bodies (ctr, left, right, rear). The separated parts of the army and small raiders will be much easier for the human army raiding group. and delay communication between parts of the hobgoblin army.

The building of a palasade around the castle would prove problematic as any troops left inside that cannot hide would have to sacrifice themselves in a ruse since escape would likely be impossible...

without civilians, the king, or nobles around to be threatened/bribed, the goblinoids would stand alone. Supply should still be shut down by the dragon destroying the mine, and any supplies en route should be intercepted and captured or destroyed...foraging should be near impossible, meaning large foraging parties with long routes into elven and dwarven territories...perfect for ambush. It would deny the enemy both food/water and wood for siege engines forcing them to find other ways.

Likely such a prudent goblinoid would send scouts to find the human force harassing them and crush them...since the majority of the humanoid force would be mounted, they could probably outdistance the main body and only fight battles with the cavalry..perhaps on even odds. If the siege lasts for too long, the human army will retreat towards elven or dwarven land to join with them (they wouldn't force them out with a hobgoblin army on their heels, not until the hobgoblins would be destroyed) and recieve supply from their ally. Give it 2-3 months, and the humans will likely be able to field an army of conscripts well provisioned and eager against a weary hobgoblin force.

The goblins are marching against a human settlement that knows they are comming and has a week to prepare before they even reach the boarder. Speed and suprise should be on their side but they are not.

Satyr
2007-12-01, 07:27 AM
Nice strategem for team evil Satyr.

Thanks, but it's mostly not my ideas. It's just the bello gallico all over again (and the hobgoblins are not lead by Vercingetorix).


Note that with the slow cautious advance people will likely be able to retreat out of the approaching army's way and depending on how fast the scouts and rangers move might give the humans time to contact dwarves and elves first...especially if there are magical modes of communication available.

I *want* the people to flee and crowd in the capital. That makes the sieging anmd starving extremely more easy. And by protecting my supply lines, I'm hopefully not dependant to pillage the land. If I were dependant, a faster deployment would be necessary. And as far as I know neither elves nor dwarves are eager to support the humans in this war (and my recommended tactics are considered to not change this).


Since the goblinoid army is 7 days from the boarder, likely the word will get to the allies first and the evacuation started of all civilians along with the burning of fields and taking/burning of provisions by the civilians and army. Unless riders are swift and well ahead of the army, these refugees wil not be caught up by the advancing army and harrasment of the column should start as the goblinoid van reaches the boarder.

Again, I have no problems with panic spreading, non-harvesting and supply-devasting refugees at all. Sure, I could use the slaves to bolster the domestic economy, but, as long as they run away and are spreading fear and act as propaganda messengers for my horde, I can live with it.


Protected supply lines means less troops near the front, and large numbers of skirmishers encircling the country side means widely scattered troops likely with 3.5 main bodies (ctr, left, right, rear). The separated parts of the army and small raiders will be much easier for the human army raiding group. and delay communication between parts of the hobgoblin army.

I have four times as many troops - I can spread them a bit, without fearing to be overwhelmed. I creep slowly across the land, every thirty or so miles, I will build a fortified camp with palisades. There I station older, non front troops. I wouldn't miss them much, and the cavalry will have to dismount to attack me and therefore can't use their more efficient tactics. The garrison troops shall suffice. The supply caravans move from encampment to emcampent and rest in protected camps. The caravans must be protected as well, but thanks to the fortified encampments, the guardians have a significant advantage over potential attackers.


The building of a palasade around the castle would prove problematic as any troops left inside that cannot hide would have to sacrifice themselves in a ruse since escape would likely be impossible...

It worked in Alesia, it will still work if you have trolls to eat the atackers. Hopefully.


without civilians, the king, or nobles around to be threatened/bribed, the goblinoids would stand alone. Supply should still be shut down by the dragon destroying the mine, and any supplies en route should be intercepted and captured or destroyed...foraging should be near impossible, meaning large foraging parties with long routes into elven and dwarven territories...perfect for ambush. It would deny the enemy both food/water and wood for siege engines forcing them to find other ways.

Where do you want to send the evacuated? The neighbours will - rightfully - assume, that this is some kind of invasion, and will ether send them back or massacre them. If they kill them, great. If they help me to herd my flocks of new helots, even greater.


without civilians, the king, or nobles around to be threatened/bribed, the goblinoids would stand alone. Supply should still be shut down by the dragon destroying the mine, and any supplies en route should be intercepted and captured or destroyed...foraging should be near impossible, meaning large foraging parties with long routes into elven and dwarven territories...perfect for ambush. It would deny the enemy both food/water and wood for siege engines forcing them to find other ways.

Under the condition, that the elves and dwarves assist you. If they don't, what do you do?

If I (as the evil hobgoblin imperator) and my generals can't overcome the enemy without having to rely on outside sources, I am stupid and therefore unfit to rule.
The dragon is in fact the greatest problem - the goblinoid army can't fight it, and if the the humans can convince it to fight for them, Im screwed. If I can convince him to fight for me, though, they are screwed. If he refuse to aid anybody, they are screwed, too. I would hate to be dependant of the assistance of a fickle red dragon... you just know that he will betray you.


Likely such a prudent goblinoid would send scouts to find the human force harassing them and crush them...since the majority of the humanoid force would be mounted, they could probably outdistance the main body and only fight battles with the cavalry..perhaps on even odds. If the siege lasts for too long, the human army will retreat towards elven or dwarven land to join with them (they wouldn't force them out with a hobgoblin army on their heels, not until the hobgoblins would be destroyed) and recieve supply from their ally. Give it 2-3 months, and the humans will likely be able to field an army of conscripts well provisioned and eager against a weary hobgoblin force.

As far as I know, hobgoblin armies almost completely consist of heavy to medium infantry. Therefore you hire Goblin Wolfriders, which are probably the best riders available (+4 to riding checks means that every stupid goblins ride as good as young knight...). And, that are hobgoblins, not stupid Orcs. Cruel, tyrannical, disciplined. I would have every warrior who breaks the line crucified.


But after all, it breaks down to the power of the plot, I fear. As far as I see, without massive outside assistance, a conditional surrender is the best the human realm can hope for.

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-01, 09:04 AM
In regards to sleep depriving the Hobgoblins, if you had access to Invisibility (and, preferable, Teleport), it would be relatively easy to get near to the Hobgoblin's camp at night before casting Ghost Sound to make it sound like there is a Dire Tiger followed by Permanency before evacuating the area (hopefully, if the Ghost sound couldn't be muted for 2 rounds, there should be enough time for the caster(s) involved to escape before doing it again the following evening).

Crow
2007-12-01, 11:49 AM
Lets get some information from the OP here and settle this thing once and for all. For theoretical purposes, what is the state of the hobgoblin army? How much do they have in reserve or back on the homefront? How many population centers do they control?

Lets get this sort of information and we can start examining this with fewer "what if" factors.

Ganurath
2007-12-01, 11:52 AM
Lets get some information from the OP here and settle this thing once and for all. For theoretical purposes, what is the state of the hobgoblin army? How much do they have in reserve or back on the homefront? How many population centers do they control?

Lets get this sort of information and we can start examining this with fewer "what if" factors.How much of this information do the PCs and their allies have access to?

Darkxarth
2007-12-01, 12:18 PM
Lets get some information from the OP here and settle this thing once and for all. For theoretical purposes, what is the state of the hobgoblin army? How much do they have in reserve or back on the homefront? How many population centers do they control?

Lets get this sort of information and we can start examining this with fewer "what if" factors.

Erm...

The state of the Hobgoblin army... umm...

1. Morale: Morale is high, as the leader is a clever and charismatic being who knows how to rile up an army. The Hobgoblins believe they are leading something similar to a Crusade against the Human kingdom, to reclaim the Hobgoblins "rightful lands." Only a significant anti-morale campaign is likely to drop Hobgoblin morale. However, constant hit-and-run tactics while the Hobgoblins sleep will hurt morale, but the leader and his priests might be able to explain it away without affecting overall morale.

2. Supplies: The individual warriors are generally clever enough to do a little hunting/foraging on their own, and of course their are a few teams of scouts who can forage for the army, but generally without the supply lines the Hobgoblin advance will slow to a halt. That of course implies that the entire supply lines have been cut, not just a few caravans delayed and captured by a small adventuring party. (Basically, the PCs can slow the advance by capturing and stop supply caravans, but they are unlikely to be able to stop the army merely by ambushing a few supply caravans.)

3. Fatigue: The army hasn't been marching for too long, and they've been taking it slowly. So while they might rather be at home not marching cross-kingdom, they're not ready to collapse from exhaustion. Not yet anyway.

On the Homefront: If I had to give a rough estimate of the defensive forces remaining in Hobgoblinland, I'd put it at 400+ Goblin warriors (level 1), 100+ Hobgoblin warriors (level 1), a half dozen Ogres or so, and a high level lieutenant (Fighter level 3). However, most of their "territory" is underground or accessible only through canyons and cliffs, so they have a distinct advantage as far as defensive position goes.

Population: Well, Goblins seem to multiply like rabbits, but Hobgoblins are a little closer to Human standards. However, if it comes down to the Hobgoblins starting a long-term war against the Humans, they've got the advantage in numbers and always will short of the Elves and Dwarves allying with the Humans.

EDIT:

How much of this information do the PCs and their allies have access to?

Just about none of it. They might be able to gather intelligence on the state of the Hobgoblin army, and a little knowledge would reveal that Goblins and Hobgoblins reproduce quickly. But as far as intimate knowledge of Hobgoblin homeland defenses and population centers, that's not something they'd have a chance of knowing without in-depth scouting and divining.

Crow
2007-12-01, 04:36 PM
2. Supplies: The individual warriors are generally clever enough to do a little hunting/foraging on their own, and of course their are a few teams of scouts who can forage for the army, but generally without the supply lines the Hobgoblin advance will slow to a halt. That of course implies that the entire supply lines have been cut, not just a few caravans delayed and captured by a small adventuring party. (Basically, the PCs can slow the advance by capturing and stop supply caravans, but they are unlikely to be able to stop the army merely by ambushing a few supply caravans.)

I am taking forage to mean living off the land and the people, so bear with me.

As a general rule, a population center can provide 1 day's worth of forage for about as many troops as there are inhabitants of the area. In more spread-out areas, families will generally have enough food to feed the whole family for many days. A good general estimate is that an army can forage a week's forage for 3 to 4 times as many soldiers as there are inhabitants in an area. As these supplies are eaten up, foragers must range further and further out to gather sufficient supplies.

Do you have a rough estimate of the poulation density of the two nations which are currently at war? This would be helpful in determining how long the hob army can maintain itself in the event of a siege, in the event supplies are disrupted.


Just about none of it. They might be able to gather intelligence on the state of the Hobgoblin army, and a little knowledge would reveal that Goblins and Hobgoblins reproduce quickly. But as far as intimate knowledge of Hobgoblin homeland defenses and population centers, that's not something they'd have a chance of knowing without in-depth scouting and divining.

Much of the plan I proposed relies upon reconaissance...

Anyhow, one of the things that always bothers me when my group does a campaign like this is that they never think to conduct reconaissance in any appreciable manner. They expect me to gift them all the information that they wouldn't have access to otherwise. Utterly ridiculous.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 04:54 PM
So, in terms of supllies, each unit in the hobgoblin army probably carries only a few days worth of food, possibly a week's worth, and some animal fodder as well (for their animals of course)...without supply or forage, they will be a very hungry army in days...this means it is vital to disrupt the supply line and to cut off the supply at the source to force a retreat or a pitched battle in which time is on the side of the defenders.

Now...an army of that size can't carry more than a day or two worth of water for each man...and the pack animals/cavalry mounts (if any) will need water as well...this means following a river, or bing near enough that runners can bring a steady stream of water to the troops. One of the best places to try and stage ambushes would be on the troops gathering water unless the entire hobgoblin army is marching along the banks.

now...there are ways, through evil magic, but hey...sometimes things like this are necessary...to befoul water. It is evil and dark, and you can only hope that you have a surefire way to reverse such magic and repair the damage it will cuse downstream later on...but if you can foul the water the enemy will need to rely on, you can stop the army in their tracks with illness and leave them unable to get any water...even with clerics to purify water, they will never have enough for everyone, and all the horses/wolves/whatever...they might be able to put everyone on very small water rations, but it will leave everyone very thirsty and in the summer, marching, in battle array...that is not worth much.

If the stream runs away from the human capitol, then they can foul the river and lakes and have the effects be downstream to the approaching army...if it runs the other way, they will need to go behind enemy lines to pull it off. And to make sure that all drinkable lakes get the same treatment...

the cleanup would be a disaster, all fish would be dead, local plants killed...once the area was cleaned (an effort that will take many men several months of work likely even with good magic) they will need to transplant wildlife into the waters of the lakes after reviving the underwater plants...the water wouldn't be back to 'normal for at least a year i think...

Decanters of endless water would be necessary to provide water to the humans if they befoul their own water to drive out the army. This method is the ultimate 'scorched earth' policy, but will be very effective if the most devastating...Not something I would recommend...however I might suggest fouling a lake or two that would be convinient for the enemy to drink from. It would hopefuly get a good portion of them sick before they realized the problem and force them to draw from further sources and lengthening their water supply line.

Of course...if they have decanters of endless water...that is all for naught...the humans need to divine some intel...

Darkxarth
2007-12-01, 05:02 PM
I am taking forage to mean living off the land and the people, so bear with me.

As a general rule, a population center can provide 1 day's worth of forage for about as many troops as there are inhabitants of the area. In more spread-out areas, families will generally have enough food to feed the whole family for many days. A good general estimate is that an army can forage a week's forage for 3 to 4 times as many soldiers as there are inhabitants in an area. As these supplies are eaten up, foragers must range further and further out to gather sufficient supplies.

Do you have a rough estimate of the poulation density of the two nations which are currently at war? This would be helpful in determining how long the hob army can maintain itself in the event of a siege, in the event supplies are disrupted.
Gah... no...

However, I will go ahead and give some seige length estimates.

1. Run!!: The villagers and townspeople merely abandon their farms and towns, taking only enough food to make it to the capital and some personal effects. In this case, the Hobgoblins could seige the capital for several months without difficulty, and the capital could last a couple of weeks.

2. Tactical Retreat: The farmers and villagers take all the food they can carry to the capital with them. The remaining food is left behind and farmlands are not destroyed. In this case, the Hobgoblins could seige the capital for a month or so without too much difficulty, but the people at the capital could also last nearly as long.

3. Scorched Earth: The farmers and villagers take all they can, burning any food that remains (or better yet, poisoning it) while burning unharvested crops and salting the fields. Woods are set on fire as soldiers gather from across the kingdom. In this case, the Hobgoblins could last only a few weeks while the capital could last several months.

This is assuming (as you said) that the Hobgoblin supply lines are totally cut, and the capital is not receiving any outside supplies either.

Now, my time estimates may not be great (you all seem to have a better grasp of population/food consumption rates, but those are the basic ratios.

1. Hobgoblins can outlast Humans.
2. Hobgoblins can last as long as Humans.
3. Hobgoblins run out of supplies first.

I just want to thank you all again for your help, this is a very interesting discussion and even when I'm not posting know that I am most definitely reading.

- DX


Much of the plan I proposed relies upon reconaissance...

Anyhow, one of the things that always bothers me when my group does a campaign like this is that they never think to conduct reconaissance in any appreciable manner. They expect me to gift them all the information that they wouldn't have access to otherwise. Utterly ridiculous.
Reconaissance is good, but it will likely have to be performed by NPCs, because my group behaves very similarly to yours. :smallwink:

Crow
2007-12-01, 05:08 PM
Whoa, who suggested salting the fields? Without a nearby source of saltwater this is going to be impossible. Besides, you want your people to use them again someday.

But if the hobgoblins were going to conquer and annihilate your people, it'd be a great way to give them a final "F*** You".

Rigon
2007-12-01, 06:17 PM
actually I'm still suggesting and recommending a "race against the clock" + "errand" + "chance for miraculous victory".
we are talking about handling PCs. enforcing the king's war tactics on them with informations and divinations will make the players just watch a movie in first person character sheet view.
this is where the "stock of elites" in the king's castle start to come with ideas for "mass hobgoblin destruction". the (good and wise) king will throw away ideas which contain "abandon people", "waste rations", "ruin the land", "poke our neighbors till they get involved". and then a "royal alchemist" pops up and tells about "a way". Whatever idea you come up with, make it really a weapon of "mass destruction hobgoblins" (or goblinoids if hobgoblin is too specific). and there comes the errand part where a component is missing. the component should be either dreaming in ethernal slumber in an abandoned ruin of a wizard or a body part (blood, nail, scale or anything non-lethally removable) of the said red dragon.
and that is how you make the PCs think that they made a difference. make them feel epic. i think that is important... except if the party is made of the not so heroic type of characters like kobolds, goblins or other normally CR half creatures.

Yeril
2007-12-01, 06:21 PM
A very cheap and effective tactic I find is one I call "Oil-Bombers"

Alchemists fire in these conditions is a good item no proficiencys requires, Even a 1st level Commoner will only have +0 to hit, but still a chance to hit the Touch AC, and since even if they miss, the attack just misses by a few squares, when your harrasing a squad/formation, your still gonner do some damage.

Heck, Halfling Commoners can have +4 to hit with these things with +2 dex and +1 throwing and +1 size.

Get a sqaud of say.. 10-20 of these guys to harrass enemys, Each hit does 2d6 damage and 2 splash damage (over 2 rounds), so if all attacks hit and spread about the formation then alot of these hobo's are gonner be torched by some commoners.

The main problem? Money, Alchemists fire is 20gp a pop so you can't afford to outfit 20 guys with 4-5 of these each.

The Solution? Oil.

At 1 silver peice each, a 20 commoners can be outfited with 10 pints of oil each for the same price as 1 bottle of alchemists fire. and with a fullround action (before battle) oil can be prepared to act just like alchemists fire (with only 50% chance of sucess sadly)

But still with 20 attacks a round, we can assume 5 do nothing (missing horribly) and 50% of the 15 that hit fail, thats still 7 hits from alchemists fire every round, enough to decimate the hobgoblins, the only disadvantage is it only takes 1 volly of archers to wipe out your commoners so Ambush is the best form for this tactic.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-01, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I'm all for scorched earth...but not salting the fields...that would make the land worthless for you should you win and the plan is to win...even if the kingdom falls, if the people survive, then one day they will be able to reclaim their land. The enemy could do it as reprisal for depriving them of forage and slavs, but then it means that they will not be staying and ensures that the humans will then attack the hobgoblin lands to make up for the lost lands due to salting.

Since the hobgoblins are about seizing the lands, they won't want to ruin the land...burning would be inconvinient in the short term, but the ash will mean a very fertile ground next season...a bumper crop to fuel the next army.

Poisoning supplies left will be good, but most should be burned. Goblinoid clerics will likely purify food and drink to any supplies they capture to the extent of their ability. Leaving a fw bottles of fine wine/ale in a good manner that is 'booby trapped' with poison will be excellent, especially if the poison is attached to the cork and only drops in if the cork is yanked...that way if it is purified before it is uncorked it is still poisoned...fine spirits would likely be taken to the officers first. A great way to target the leadership.

I still think citizens should be evacuated into neighboring kingdoms temporarily, only stopping by the capitol if prudent to deliver some supplies for the siege and then to establish a refugee colony and start training conscripts. (if the king leads the delegation and pays for the arms and supplies, he will likely get support from the dwarves if only because of their hatred of goblins and the prospect of having a hobgoblin nation on their border. The dwarves should understand the sacrifice the humans made to keep all their people safe and would likely join in defending the dwarven border at least from intrusion of hobgoblins, and probably aid them in driving them back when the time comes.

Elves are a bit more skakey about allying probably, but at the very least if they are approached, they will offer passage if not haven for fleeing citizens and rouse their own forces to their border to keep hobgoblins at bay and deter any encroachment into Elven territory. The hobgoblins would be wise to not get too close to the elves, lest the elves join the battle. The elves might not intervene for humans' sake...but if they are attacked, elven vengeance is usually complete and overwhelming. If even a single elven patrol is attacked, the elves will launch full scale hit and run raids against the Hobgoblins.

If the humans are lucky, their depriving the hobgoblins of supplies can force them to do exactly that for forage. If the humans try trickery to get the elves and hobgoblins to atatck each other, then if it is ever found out, the elves would likely never trust the human nation again for several generations of elves! That is not an option. The envoy to the elves should make the scorched earth and suply disruption plan known to the elves so that they may apologize in advance for what the hobgoblins will do once they find no forage in their path of advance. They must ask if they can help defend their border to try and spare any elven lives and prevent their tactics form harming the elven nation. If they accept then they will help train refugees that pass through them for a second front later...if not and say move out, then they will be forced to fight against the hobgoblins alone...they may not like the human's plan to force confrontation, but likely won't hold TOO big a grudge, especially if the army in the field does try their best to aid the elven defense.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-01, 06:53 PM
actually I'm still suggesting and recommending a "race against the clock" + "errand" + "chance for miraculous victory".
we are talking about handling PCs. enforcing the king's war tactics on them with informations and divinations will make the players just watch a movie in first person character sheet view.
this is where the "stock of elites" in the king's castle start to come with ideas for "mass hobgoblin destruction". the (good and wise) king will throw away ideas which contain "abandon people", "waste rations", "ruin the land", "poke our neighbors till they get involved". and then a "royal alchemist" pops up and tells about "a way". Whatever idea you come up with, make it really a weapon of "mass destruction hobgoblins" (or goblinoids if hobgoblin is too specific). and there comes the errand part where a component is missing. the component should be either dreaming in ethernal slumber in an abandoned ruin of a wizard or a body part (blood, nail, scale or anything non-lethally removable) of the said red dragon.
and that is how you make the PCs think that they made a difference. make them feel epic. i think that is important... except if the party is made of the not so heroic type of characters like kobolds, goblins or other normally CR half creatures.

No offense, but that's pretty cliched. It's a combination of a Deus Ex Machina and a MacGuffin hunt. Besides, the PCs are only around fifth level, so there's no reason the king wouldn't just send a contingent of loyal troops to recover the MacGuffin instead.

Crow
2007-12-01, 06:59 PM
No offense, but that's pretty cliched. It's a combination of a Deus Ex Machina and a MacGuffin hunt. Besides, the PCs are only around fifth level, so there's no reason the king wouldn't just send a contingent of loyal troops to recover the MacGuffin instead.

Sometimes the cliches make for great games. If the OP thinks his players would like that, then he should do it. It is all about fun in the end, right?

edit: somebody should pick a winner for "best plan" in this thread. There have been some beautiful ones so far.

Darkxarth
2007-12-02, 01:51 AM
edit: somebody should pick a winner for "best plan" in this thread. There have been some beautiful ones so far.

That's a good idea, but I don't think I can be the one to do it. I'm too involved in the campaign to make the decision. I'm using bits and pieces of everybody's ideas to formulate some sort of adventure plan.

Rigon
2007-12-02, 04:58 PM
No offense, but that's pretty cliched. It's a combination of a Deus Ex Machina and a MacGuffin hunt. Besides, the PCs are only around fifth level, so there's no reason the king wouldn't just send a contingent of loyal troops to recover the MacGuffin instead.

i agree it's really cliched. but in my opinion if this war ends within the campaign then the PCs have to make it end, no matter what ending that is. as for "loyal troops" they are lower level than the PCs as far i know.

maybe the king can order the PCs to "check on the hobo army"... then when they are there they can think out or stumble upon the solution themselves. how about abandoning the country? that would exclude the clerics from the party...

questions:
what did the hobgoblins offer to the red dragon? (maybe sabotage the delivery/completion)
what are the chances to find a high level spellcaster mercenary? (maybe a famous sorcerer)
any other dragons around (maybe even good dragons)?

holywhippet
2007-12-02, 05:35 PM
Tactically, divide and conquer would be handy if it could be pulled off. If the PCs could isolate parts of the army and take them out they'd soon start cranking up in levels. Likewise, the kings army is mainly composed of level 1 fighters. If you can get some groups of them to ambush pockets of hobgoblins and take them out, they'll start gaining levels as well. Have the low level clerics tag along for some XP as well.

You could even do some time training - have the spell casters summon monsters for troops to kill. Form an elite guard out of those with the best natural strength, give them some buffs, some training then send them hobgoblin bashing.

Rama_Lei
2007-12-02, 06:03 PM
The Red Hand of Doom module is similar to this. They give the PC's points based on their actions. If the PC's slay this general or stop this supply train, etc. They get a set amount of points. If the amount is high, the PC's win the war. If it's low, the city falls. give them new missions: Recruiting elves and the dwarves, or finding an item for the dragon. Then in the actual battle, let them have a couple of exciting fights against a general or two for bonus points, so they feel involved in the war. Those are my suggestions.

pinkbunny
2007-12-02, 06:43 PM
pitch, lots, and lots of pitch.

combined with one flaming arrow to make a hobgoblin bbq.

It could work if done right, IE-on the major road. Trap the outlying area heavily, but the road lightly, and you can ensure that they use it.

PollyOliver
2007-12-02, 07:16 PM
I skimmed the rest of the thread, but didn't read it all in depth, so if this has been mentioned/shot down, forgive me.

The first thing they're going to have to do is cut down the numbers gap and lower morale in the hobgoblin army. This would involve guerrilla warfare, attempting to attack the command structure, and recruiting allies.

I agree with whoever said upthread that any crops that cannot be harvested, livestock that cannot be herded, etc. should not be left for the enemy. But that doesn't necessarily mean burning all of it. Harvest everything you can in a day or three, poison as much of the leftovers as possible, and then burn the rest. This won't work for too long, mostly only in the outlying villages before the hobgoblins learn not to eat anything they find, but it will lower morale at least. Furthermore, trap buildings that you leave behind and undermine the supports of bridges across any rivers or ravines so they fall down once there's weight on them. Station archers on the banks, fire off a few rounds, and run like hell.

Then come guerrilla tactics. You've already (theoretically) made sure that they won't find anything to eat in your kingdom--but an army that large needs food. Harry their supply lines, and either burn any captured food or take it back to the city to support the siege. Or, send the rogue into the supply lines/food storage areas to poison their rations and drinking water. Let loose mini-stampedes of any herd animals they're bringing with them. Try and get either of the higher-level clerics close by and cast Contagion a couple times. (Can it spread in close-contact situations like an army camp?) Even if it can't spread, they'll probably think that it can and the disease will start a panic, especially if you concentrate all five possible castings in a relatively small area.

If you have any cavalry, you can use them to harass the edges of the army as they're moving. If you don't, I'd concentrate on attacking at night, burning any siege machines the enemy might have or be working on and taking out supplies. It would also be good to have your people surround them at night and light fires around their army. Even your level one clerics can cast create water to douse a good region behind them before they start, giving them time to get away. Even just sending in the rogue to pick off a few dozen hobgoblins in their sleep will screw with morale.

If they can, they should also try attacking the officers in the army. The rogue can try to sneak in to the command tent. Your bard can provide him with invisibility, or alternatively alter himself and accompany the sneaking rogue as backup. If you don't think they're capable of doing much in the way of killing in the command tent, they could at least steal some battle plans or listen in on a planning session. If you do manage to kill anyone, even a grunt, speak with dead can get you a great deal of information.

Making overtures to the dragon would also be a good idea, if they can offer him something. He can light fires a lot more effectively than anyone else, and would be a formidable ally inflicting direct damage as well. If you can reach the elves or dwarves, you might attempt to reason with them and convince them that they'll be next. The only difference is whether they want to allow this kingdom to fall and countless lives to be lost and then have to fight a bloody war on their own soil, or take the hobgoblins down before their people are even threatened.

After all this is done, though, you've probably still got a pretty big (though shaken and hungry) army heading toward you. The PCs should work on fortifications and battlefield control for the upcoming fights. Building muddy trenches, with the use of endless waterskins or just plain create water, can help direct the enemy where you want them on the battlefield. Water can also create a boggy area that it's difficult for the enemy to cross, clumping them together and slowing them down so archers can pick them off. Obscuring mist can be used to hide things, such as pits with spikes at the bottom, before the enemy approaches.

Your army can also lay stakes and possibly wire briar vines between them to trip up or at least slow progress toward the walls, and your high-level clerics can spend the night before the advance setting up a glyph of warding or two in likely locations. If the enemy archers become troublesome at any time, a wind wall from one of your high-level clerics can disrupt them long enough to either start getting your guys out of range or attempt to take them down. Stone shape before the enemy arrives can help resculpt the outer walls of any fortifications you have to make them hardier. Try to avoid a pitched battle if at all possible--if you make their lives hell for long enough, the invading army might break ranks and leave, especially if you can get to the leaders.

If you have to get into the fighting, your clerics aren't going to be all that useful as a healing force--after all, you've only got one level one cleric for every 120 soldiers. That's not going to do much. Instead you might have your low level clerics cast bless on a large group of bunched-up soldiers just before the action starts so they can at least start off strong (and not terrified), cast bane on the enemy during battle, or use obscuring mist to force the enemy to come at their position slowly, lest they run into something totally unexpected. If your pcs work it out in advance, a long object like a pole with light cast on it could be used as a battlefield signal, as one thing that consistently loses battles is not having the right information. For the most part direct damage or healing spells probably won't be all that useful for your high or low level characters--it's more important to concentrate on helping others do more damage and trying to control the battlefield as much as you can.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 07:23 PM
I'd reccommend against contagion. Sure, it's a nice way to break morale, but you're under seige. A plague is very harsh on beseiged people (at least an Evil Hobgoblin Army can leave its ill to rot a safe distance away). Remember, these guys are evil, and they might decided to load catapults with the dead and the dying as vengeance.

Satyr
2007-12-02, 07:40 PM
Contagion will likely hit you harder than them - hobgoblins are more resilient than humans...

Kompera
2007-12-02, 07:44 PM
I am taking forage to mean living off the land and the people, so bear with me.

As a general rule, a population center can provide 1 day's worth of forage for about as many troops as there are inhabitants of the area. In more spread-out areas, families will generally have enough food to feed the whole family for many days. This may be a decent rule of thumb, but in practice it would change, and radically, depending on the vocations of the local peasantry. A single family of ranchers and all of their ranch hands, say 25 people total, could be managing herds in the hundreds. Any farmers should have seed grain stocks suitable for planting their entire fields in the next season, and unless it's a hand to mouth economy they will have seed reserves even immediately after the planting season as a reserve against flooding or other issues which might cause a crop failure. Those seed reserves would be a significant energy source for the Hob army, if they'll eat grains. And, do Hobs have any problems eating any humans they may capture during their advance? That's a food source most human armies wouldn't even consider, and a significant one in terms of available meat.

Dyvim
2007-12-05, 07:53 PM
Just a few thoughts on the situation...

Attacking with 10,000 against 2,400 is a bit of a gamble. The commanding general may well be in a hurry to win this war. If i was that commander i would want to win two objectives; I'd want the capital city. I'd want the King (dead or in chains, eithers good).

Another thing is, that troops defending a prepared position should be confident of beating about 3 times their number. In this case, they should be looking to beat any force that is less than 7,200-ish.

I know its not really a very fantasy solution (and I've ignored the dragon entirely), but why not try and trick the hobgoblin general into splitting their forces?

Specifically, convince them to chase after what everyone believes is the fleeing King and his best soldiers. (In truth, illusioned/disguised peasants gaffer-taped onto horses). he could be fleeing to another prominant town to try and build an army, or maybe towards those potential Dwarven/Elven allies.

Hopefully, the attacking Hobgoblin general knows (via spies) that morale within the city has slumped and that the defenders are depleated (king has taken his best troops). Considering his position then, he's got to try and get both objectives at once. He's got to chase the "King" and take the city using his limited resorces. That or settle in for a long siege and hope that a supporting army doesn't try and relieve the capital. (I believe that i read somewhere that the hobgoblins don't have much siege equipment so they are going to have to attack the most easily taken points; low walls or the gatehouse. Making the defenders job easier).

While their first attack wave approaches your king and his greatest warriors come out of hiding. Hopefully lifting the spirits of everyone within the city just at the critical moment.
Even if the hobgoblins are not totally broken by their first failed assault, hopefully they will be severely weakened and may have to strategically withdraw.
The war probably won't be over with this chain of events and it does set up the game world rather nicely for further adventures... That said, many generals will continue throwing troops against walls long after the result is be decided. Allowing a quicker return to normal for that game world, if you'd rather.

From a fantasy point of view, I'd favour anything that can scare the opposing army. You don't want to kill 10,000 hobgoblins at once; just making them take losses as they run away will work.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter. (Sorry, if I've duplicated someone elses threat, skipped a few of the longer posts). Happy gaming!

Mewtarthio
2007-12-05, 08:33 PM
I know its not really a very fantasy solution (and I've ignored the dragon entirely), but why not try and trick the hobgoblin general into splitting their forces?

Specifically, convince them to chase after what everyone believes is the fleeing King and his best soldiers. (In truth, illusioned/disguised peasants gaffer-taped onto horses). he could be fleeing to another prominant town to try and build an army, or maybe towards those potential Dwarven/Elven allies.

Actually, that's a perfect fantasy solution, if you replace "peasants gaffer-taped onto horses" with "the PCs, who swiftly defeat the hobgoblin's best assassins once they're caught."

Zim
2007-12-06, 02:30 PM
Interesting thread. Kudos to all the armchair hobgoblins out there! :smallcool: On the surface this looks like this is set up to be a classic medieval battle, but with very advanced strategies.

The human forces are outnumbered in CR too. A hobgoblin warrior has LA +1 so they are superior troops to the human warriors. They will outperform the humans in a straight fight every time. Both hobgoblin and human sides know this.

What the defenders need to do is find ways to play on the hobgoblin overconfidence in order to be victorious. Finding ways to trick the hobgoblins into thinking they're going to get a fair fight, and then dropping a nasty ambush on them is a classic strategy. The humans just need to be creative about ways to do this. They don't need to decimate the enemy either; just break their will to fight. Not easy given hobgoblin culture, I admit.

Also, what is the situation with air superiority? I know the dragon is out there, but what about summoned/called flyers?

Darkxarth
2007-12-06, 02:48 PM
Wow!

Not sure how I've missed all the posts since before the 2nd, but once I get back this evening I assure you I'll read them all and comment on as many as possible.

Again, thanks to everyone who's posted for your gracious assistance.

- DX

Storm Bringer
2007-12-06, 06:00 PM
hmmm..... four to one odds, unknown quantiy of possible allies, no serious terrian to hide behind, and a major city to protect.


hmm.......


first off, give the hobo something worth dispacting significant numbers of troops after. the rumor of a hidden tresure site, a food stash, a hidden fort that contains several hundred troops...... anything, something that the hobos can't ignore. for example, reinforce the borader town to a few hundred men and kick out the non-coms. the hobo leader can't ignore that sort of number of men astride his supply lines, he has to take the town. he can either keep his entire force together (which slows his advance) or devide a significant number of men to lay siege (which weakens his main force). give him reason to think the dwarves are about to march on him, meaning he needs to dispatch troops to watch the boarder. send him false word of a uprising at home, making him uneasy about his supples rotue.

detach another smallish force to get at the supply lines, in particular food. ambush scavenger parties and any other isolated forces. Try and get the hobos to be unwilling to move in anything other than force. this limits thier flexabilit.

trap the roads like hell. Even if the hobs can march over the fields, the carts can't, and pack animals have limited effective range before they stop being a benifit (i.e. they've eaten as much food as thier loads weigh). every cart that gets trashed is half a ton of suppiles that is much harder to shift.

you get the idea. this is only winnable by a combination of good luck, poor choices by the hobos, and some savy NPC work, or a deus ex mechanica.

Konig
2007-12-06, 08:12 PM
Another good resource to check out is 'Bokko', where one tactical genius (from the Bokk sect of monks) organizes a fort populated only by peasants and a handful of nobles, against an invading army. For a manga, it's rather serious & well done. The first half of the series deals with a very similar situation to what you describe.

Lighting a large collection of dried brush on fire, choking the enemy, impeding their archery & forcing a retreat.

.
Tactically hitting a food reserve. An army without food has to retreat, often for as much as an entire season.

.
Traps. Can't go wrong with traps.

.
War is a battle of attrition. It is won by stomachs as much as it is won by swords, and the side that can feed itself the longest will win. It might seem strange if the human side starts establishing gardens or farmland on the back lines, but it will be invaluable, especially if the same land can be used tactically.

As for attacking...

Siege is overrated. Sapping is potent. Dig a tunnel underneath the wall, shoring it up with wooden planks. When you've excavated enough area, set the tunnel on fire & retreat, tunnel collapses, and the wall comes down with it.

Dervag
2007-12-06, 08:50 PM
As for attacking...

Siege is overrated. Sapping is potent. Dig a tunnel underneath the wall, shoring it up with wooden planks. When you've excavated enough area, set the tunnel on fire & retreat, tunnel collapses, and the wall comes down with it.Of course, if the other buggers are clever enough to detect your sapping attempt, they can sap your tunneling troops before you sap them.

Also, sapping only works correctly when performed by trained and experienced sappers. A hobgoblin army might well contain such, but there's no guarantee.

Darkxarth
2007-12-06, 08:52 PM
I skimmed the rest of the thread, but didn't read it all in depth, so if this has been mentioned/shot down, forgive me.
It has gotten rather long, you are forgiven.


The first thing they're going to have to do is cut down the numbers gap and lower morale in the hobgoblin army. This would involve guerrilla warfare, attempting to attack the command structure, and recruiting allies.
Hobgoblin morale is not going to be easy to break, as the clever and charismatic leader has convinced the Hobgoblins that they're on a holy crusade of sorts, but enough hit-and-run tactics could break it.


I agree with whoever said upthread that any crops that cannot be harvested, livestock that cannot be herded, etc. should not be left for the enemy. But that doesn't necessarily mean burning all of it. Harvest everything you can in a day or three, poison as much of the leftovers as possible, and then burn the rest. This won't work for too long, mostly only in the outlying villages before the hobgoblins learn not to eat anything they find, but it will lower morale at least. Furthermore, trap buildings that you leave behind and undermine the supports of bridges across any rivers or ravines so they fall down once there's weight on them. Station archers on the banks, fire off a few rounds, and run like hell.
Poisoning remaining resources is a bad option (as far as the kingdom is concerned) but one they are likely to have to take unless they can stop/slow the Hobgoblins quickly.


Then come guerrilla tactics. You've already (theoretically) made sure that they won't find anything to eat in your kingdom--but an army that large needs food. Harry their supply lines, and either burn any captured food or take it back to the city to support the siege. Or, send the rogue into the supply lines/food storage areas to poison their rations and drinking water. Let loose mini-stampedes of any herd animals they're bringing with them. Try and get either of the higher-level clerics close by and cast Contagion a couple times. (Can it spread in close-contact situations like an army camp?) Even if it can't spread, they'll probably think that it can and the disease will start a panic, especially if you concentrate all five possible castings in a relatively small area.
All very good ideas. And as for Contagion (which a couple of other posters right after you vetoed) a friend of mine suggested using the Blinding Sickness option. It has a 1d3 incubation time (so would have to be done quickly) but it can be spread through tainted water. So a few strikes at water barrels on the supply line would be useful.

The effects are quite nice - a hobgoblin has a +4 Fort save, so any given warrior has a 55% chance of failing a save. Each day with a failed save is 1d4 Strength damage, and the hobgoblin has a 41% chance to be blinded every time he gets damage from the disease. That's a 23% chance every day that any infected hobgoblin will be permanently blinded; if the PCs can get to the proper water sources, the army could be crippled within a week. Even if the hobgoblins have their own low-level clerics to cure diseases, there's no way they could cast enough to stop the epidemic.
Maybe not totally doable, but certainly a good way to drop morale as well.


If you have any cavalry, you can use them to harass the edges of the army as they're moving. If you don't, I'd concentrate on attacking at night, burning any siege machines the enemy might have or be working on and taking out supplies. It would also be good to have your people surround them at night and light fires around their army. Even your level one clerics can cast create water to douse a good region behind them before they start, giving them time to get away. Even just sending in the rogue to pick off a few dozen hobgoblins in their sleep will screw with morale.
These kinds of things make good short adventures for PCs, I suspect they will be doing one or two of these at least.


If they can, they should also try attacking the officers in the army. The rogue can try to sneak in to the command tent. Your bard can provide him with invisibility, or alternatively alter himself and accompany the sneaking rogue as backup. If you don't think they're capable of doing much in the way of killing in the command tent, they could at least steal some battle plans or listen in on a planning session. If you do manage to kill anyone, even a grunt, speak with dead can get you a great deal of information.
Well, they have no real information on the leader of the Hobgoblins, other than he's "unusual." I suspect they will be unable to locate him (*hint* recurring villain) but if they're clever enough they can find him and try to fight him (he'd be above their CR, but they might be able to do it).


Making overtures to the dragon would also be a good idea, if they can offer him something. He can light fires a lot more effectively than anyone else, and would be a formidable ally inflicting direct damage as well. If you can reach the elves or dwarves, you might attempt to reason with them and convince them that they'll be next. The only difference is whether they want to allow this kingdom to fall and countless lives to be lost and then have to fight a bloody war on their own soil, or take the hobgoblins down before their people are even threatened.
The Dragon has made an agreement with the Hobgoblin leader "Not to directly interfere with the army." However, he is on good terms (as good of terms as you can be with a Red Dragon) with the PCs. So they might find a loophole in his agreement and convince him to exploit it in their favor, for a price of course.


After all this is done, though, you've probably still got a pretty big (though shaken and hungry) army heading toward you. The PCs should work on fortifications and battlefield control for the upcoming fights. Building muddy trenches, with the use of endless waterskins or just plain create water, can help direct the enemy where you want them on the battlefield. Water can also create a boggy area that it's difficult for the enemy to cross, clumping them together and slowing them down so archers can pick them off. Obscuring mist can be used to hide things, such as pits with spikes at the bottom, before the enemy approaches.
Good ideas, digging holes and trenches is definitely a possibility since the soldiers can make it to the capital before the Hobgoblins. And 2400 guys can get a lot done in a day or two.


Your army can also lay stakes and possibly wire briar vines between them to trip up or at least slow progress toward the walls, and your high-level clerics can spend the night before the advance setting up a glyph of warding or two in likely locations. If the enemy archers become troublesome at any time, a wind wall from one of your high-level clerics can disrupt them long enough to either start getting your guys out of range or attempt to take them down. Stone shape before the enemy arrives can help resculpt the outer walls of any fortifications you have to make them hardier. Try to avoid a pitched battle if at all possible--if you make their lives hell for long enough, the invading army might break ranks and leave, especially if you can get to the leaders.
Lots of spell use, but there are two mid-level clerics and a dozen level 1s...


If you have to get into the fighting, your clerics aren't going to be all that useful as a healing force--after all, you've only got one level one cleric for every 120 soldiers. That's not going to do much. Instead you might have your low level clerics cast bless on a large group of bunched-up soldiers just before the action starts so they can at least start off strong (and not terrified), cast bane on the enemy during battle, or use obscuring mist to force the enemy to come at their position slowly, lest they run into something totally unexpected. If your pcs work it out in advance, a long object like a pole with light cast on it could be used as a battlefield signal, as one thing that consistently loses battles is not having the right information. For the most part direct damage or healing spells probably won't be all that useful for your high or low level characters--it's more important to concentrate on helping others do more damage and trying to control the battlefield as much as you can.

I definitely like the idea of casting Bless and Bane, those could easily turn the tide of a small battle, or significantly help a squadron of wall archers.

I also really like the idea of using Light-ed poles as battlefield signals.

Unfortunately, the Clerics of the Kingdom are all Clerics of Pelor, so the low level ones are going to probably be doing a lot of healing anyway. However, casting Bless would also easily be within range of their disposition. And, of course, they could always be ordered to by the Grand Priest and/or the King.

Long post, mostly quotes. I'll try and get caught up some more later tonight/early tomorrow morning. Thanks again.

- DX

Darkxarth
2007-12-07, 01:43 AM
Just a few thoughts on the situation...

Attacking with 10,000 against 2,400 is a bit of a gamble. The commanding general may well be in a hurry to win this war. If i was that commander i would want to win two objectives; I'd want the capital city. I'd want the King (dead or in chains, eithers good).
That's pretty much the plan. Take the capital, get the King.


Another thing is, that troops defending a prepared position should be confident of beating about 3 times their number. In this case, they should be looking to beat any force that is less than 7,200-ish.
Sounds like a lower estimate than some others were giving, but doesn't take into account a seige. Still, there are plenty of seige strategies.


I know its not really a very fantasy solution (and I've ignored the dragon entirely), but why not try and trick the hobgoblin general into splitting their forces?
The Dragon is not likely to be very helpful anyway, so don't worry about it. Also, fantasy solutions aren't always the right answer. Sometimes it takes plain ole' mundane ingenuity.

Though magic usually helps.


Specifically, convince them to chase after what everyone believes is the fleeing King and his best soldiers. (In truth, illusioned/disguised peasants gaffer-taped onto horses). he could be fleeing to another prominant town to try and build an army, or maybe towards those potential Dwarven/Elven allies.
I agree with Mewtarthio who posted directly after you. Replace peasants with PCs and it's a good plan.


Hopefully, the attacking Hobgoblin general knows (via spies) that morale within the city has slumped and that the defenders are depleated (king has taken his best troops). Considering his position then, he's got to try and get both objectives at once. He's got to chase the "King" and take the city using his limited resorces. That or settle in for a long siege and hope that a supporting army doesn't try and relieve the capital. (I believe that i read somewhere that the hobgoblins don't have much siege equipment so they are going to have to attack the most easily taken points; low walls or the gatehouse. Making the defenders job easier).

While their first attack wave approaches your king and his greatest warriors come out of hiding. Hopefully lifting the spirits of everyone within the city just at the critical moment.
Even if the hobgoblins are not totally broken by their first failed assault, hopefully they will be severely weakened and may have to strategically withdraw.
Of course he'll know, he's a clever general, he'll definitely be using scouts, spies (or something similar) and maybe even low-level divining magic. So he chases down the King, and assaults the capital. Meanwhile, PCs slaughter (or slow down/stop/avoid/etc.) the King-chasers and return to the city to help with defense and partake in the magnificent charge of the king, or sneak around the back of the army and try and take out leaders or at least supply lines.


The war probably won't be over with this chain of events and it does set up the game world rather nicely for further adventures... That said, many generals will continue throwing troops against walls long after the result is be decided. Allowing a quicker return to normal for that game world, if you'd rather.
Even if the war itself isn't over, it would be down to a manageable, background level. The PCs must now travel around the kingdom, helping individual villages/go to the Elves or Dwarves for help/travel to Hobgoblin lands and find out what started the war/etc.


From a fantasy point of view, I'd favour anything that can scare the opposing army. You don't want to kill 10,000 hobgoblins at once; just making them take losses as they run away will work.
That's always an option, plus it allows them to return if necessary, or at least pose as a threat to the PCs.


Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter. (Sorry, if I've duplicated someone elses threat, skipped a few of the longer posts). Happy gaming!

No worries! :smallbiggrin: You wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.

Darkxarth
2007-12-07, 02:25 AM
Interesting thread. Kudos to all the armchair hobgoblins out there! :smallcool: On the surface this looks like this is set up to be a classic medieval battle, but with very advanced strategies.
I just want to say, I love the phrase Armchair Hobgoblin! Fantastic!

And yes, it's a simple (looking) problem with complicated and complex solutions. Like all good problems. :smallwink:


The human forces are outnumbered in CR too. A hobgoblin warrior has LA +1 so they are superior troops to the human warriors. They will outperform the humans in a straight fight every time. Both hobgoblin and human sides know this.
Yup. Throw in there that Hobgoblins are also very military-minded and are unlikely to break ranks or retreat short of something big.


What the defenders need to do is find ways to play on the hobgoblin overconfidence in order to be victorious. Finding ways to trick the hobgoblins into thinking they're going to get a fair fight, and then dropping a nasty ambush on them is a classic strategy. The humans just need to be creative about ways to do this. They don't need to decimate the enemy either; just break their will to fight. Not easy given hobgoblin culture, I admit.
Hmm, playing on their confidence. Not a suggestion we've had yet. Similar to breaking their morale, but not quite the same. However, doing so requires some sort of big, secret, awesome plan on the part of the PCs and the kingdom. And that's just what this thread is chock full of! Go figure. :smallamused:


Also, what is the situation with air superiority? I know the dragon is out there, but what about summoned/called flyers?

Guh... air superiority?

Hobgoblin Air Troops: The Hobgoblin army has no air support to speak of. Though theoretically one of the top leaders might be a mage of some sort with access to summoning spells or Fly.

Human Air Forces: The human kingdom also has no real air forces. The Grand Priest (NPC) and the party Cleric might be able to do some summoning, but not a lot.

I think, outside of the Dragon, air superiority is pretty much not a factor. Either force could summon some air creatures, but the impact (other than for scouting) would be almost nothing because of the short summoning times.


First off, give the Hobbos something worth dispatching significant numbers of troops after. The rumor of a hidden treasure site, a food stash, a hidden fort that contains several hundred troops, anything. Something that the Hobbos can't ignore. For example, reinforce the border town to a few hundred men and kick out the non-coms. The Hobbo leader can't ignore that sort of number of men astride his supply lines, he has to take the town. He can either keep his entire force together (which slows his advance) or divide a significant number of men to lay siege (which weakens his main force). Give him reason to think the Dwarves are about to march on him, meaning he needs to dispatch troops to watch the border. Send him false word of a uprising at home, making him uneasy about his supply routes.
All very good ideas to use in conjuction with pretty much anything else on the thread. Most of the plans there involve very few troops (with the exception of using the border town) and will slow down/break up the main army.


Detach another smallish force to get at the supply lines, in particular food. Ambush scavenger parties and any other isolated forces. Try and get the Hobbos to be unwilling to move in anything other than force. This limits their flexability.
Also a good idea, takes a few more troops, but this is really something a few smal squads (cavalry or ranger-ish ones) and the PCs could do.


Trap the roads like hell. Even if the Hobbos can march over the fields, the carts can't, and pack animals have limited effective range before they stop being a benefit (i.e. they've eaten as much food as thier loads weigh). Every cart that gets trashed is half a ton of suppiles that is that much harder to shift.
Hmm, I'm not exactly sure how to "trap the roads" but I'm assuming hidden pits and the like. Unfortunately, that's only going to work a few times before the Hobgoblins start checking for the pits and using wood (or even portable bridges) to cover them enough to cross the wagons. Still, a useful idea in that it requires relatively few men, few resources, and no real combat danger.


You get the idea. This is only winnable by a combination of good luck, poor choices by the Hobbos, and some savvy NPC work, or a deus ex mechanica.
Yup, all true. It didn't start like that, but the PCs did things I didn't expect (as usual) and threw it slightly off course.

Storm Bringer
2007-12-07, 08:06 AM
well, in all honesty, i think the best place the PC's could be is on the road to the dawven/elven capital (whichever is closer), intent on convincing them to fight for the humans (or at least against the hobos). they get a task that really needs doing, it's an intresting difference form the usual hack and slash (since they need to cover the ground as fast as is inhumanly possible, both ways, then try and politic their way into to dwarfs/elves good books), and it means that you control all the improtant players at the major battles, which means you can dictate the corse of events while the players are getting help.

this is arugbly the best tool you have in order to save the party and the plot. The leader may be charaismatic, popular with his men and brave, but not inheritly a GOOD leader, or a better leader than the King and his men. Also, he may not be immune from politicing in his own ranks. Maybe have one of the hobo generals is eager to assume his bosses boots.

a good trick, if you can pull it off, is have the players fabricate evidence of a slave uprising in the hobo's home, one beyound the ability of the remaining forces thier. this would force the hobo general to detach a large part of his force to deal with the threat to his supply lines, and allows the players to directly affect the odds in a plausable way.

another good trick would be give the party the chance to attack the hobo siege engineers, the ones who know how to make the catapults, how to tunnel effectivly, etc. if they can kill them (or even just a few of them), they make it much harder for the hobo commander to take the human city by storm, if his only options are elcalade (seroisuly wastful of troops) and starvation (slow).

but, i feel, the best hope of the nation is in it's allies turning up and causeing havoc on the hobos rear. if the PC's are directly involved in getting those allies to the battle, they have saved the kingdom and avoided you using a deus ex mechanica.

WorthingSon
2007-12-07, 08:46 AM
I was afraid my mentioning him might cause a stir.

Big Red Dragon: The problem is that he has secretly spoken to the leader of the Hobgoblin army, and has already agreed not to 'directly interfere' with the army itself. Now, though he's evil, he's already made a deal with the PCs once, and might be convinced to do so again, if there's a good price involved or he it's highly amusing. However, the PCs would have to circumvent the phrase "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army" before the dragon would even consider doing anything.

That being said, there are a lot of intelligent people here and it's likely someone will think of some way to involve him, so here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon) he is.

He's a Mature Adult, so that gives him 18 Int, 19 Wis, and 18 Cha. He's unlikely to be tricked or fooled, but as I said he has a sense of humor and has already met the PCs (on as good of terms as you can have with a Red Dragon) so he might be agreeable to a deal of some sort. He's got a number of useful little magical items, but nothing that could directly deal with a 10,000 strong army. Mostly Wondrous items with a few +1 weapons thrown in, and of course a huge pile of gold, silver, platinum, diamonds, and other precious gems/metals.

So umm... he can't "directly interfere with the hobgoblin army", but who said anything about the homelands of the hobgoblins? Usually dragons don't like being told what to do by normal mortals (at least all the ones I've met in character). So mayhaps you could point out to him that the hobgoblins that have tried to limit what he can do have left their entire home for him to show them what hapends when mortals interfere with dragons.

Alternativly, he didn't say anything about the Ogers, bugbears, and goblins... just hobgoblins. Or, he could be directly interfearing wiht the ground under the hobgoblins' feet; it's not his fault that the hobgoblins are on top of it.

Meschaelene
2007-12-07, 09:57 AM
To those who are suggesting things like "burn your villages" and "give up your elderly" you are severely underestimating the effect of morale upon an army. A soldier is alot more likely to risk his life to defend his elderly mother than he is to defend the castle of the guy who sacraficed her. It's not a video game, and the npcs should react accordingly.

Also the "an army in a properly fortified position should be able to defend against an army 10 times it's size" is just wrong. I believe the actual number to be closer to 3 or 4 times.

As for the PCs, why not just give them free reign? That is the entire point of the game after all, and if they lose then they lose.

I agree with this. The 10:1 was usually used by the attacking force to win via an overrun -- and on a very late medieval fortress rather than a walled city.

Morale is an important factor -- but I think it is also imortant to consider that the civilians in this case know they will be eaten if they are captured. Warfare in D+D is not the same as medieval Europian warfare, where everyone knew that, if captured, they were likely to be left alive -- if only for ransom purposes. With few exceptions, Joe Farmer was gonna be alive at the end of the day, especially if he did not fight. That is not true here

Give the peasants spears (or sharpened wooden sticks, pitchforks, axes, etc.). 30k peasants should be able to beat 10k level 1 hobbo warriors. Best bet, be on the other side of a hill or low rise (protecting yourself from archery). Begin the charge of the peasant mob, with a few folks in the 2nd or 3rd ranks with alchemist fire flasks. They throw them just before the mob hits the hobbos to throw their formation out. Then it becomes a bar fight which neutralizes the martial training of the hobbos.

Motivation? Take a page from Joe Stalin and refuse to evacuate the women and children.

All of that is from the leader's perspective. From the PC's perspective, they need to be split out to act independently. Here is what I would do...

Half of the enemy army is headed north to a city up there. That's 5k hobgoblins. The mayor of that city is following the above advice, but is only able to field 5k peasants. As it becomes readily apparent (during the battle) that the peasants are losing, one of the survivors begs the PCs to save their children -- and he gives his life to give the PCs (and the women and children) time to escape. Now the PCs are herding a bunch of women and children behind enemy lines, being chased, and are cut off from the king and his soldiers. They escape to elven lands as refugees -- and the elves do not take kindly to refugees...

luagha
2007-12-07, 08:09 PM
You mention that the good guys have a Grand Priest.

Clerics have a number of gross army-routing battlefield spells at high levels. But they have limited ranges and take a good long time to work.

This is optimum for a PC-based adventure. Your Grand Priest spends the next seven days writing one or two 7th-8th-9th level scrolls for about 2-3000 gp each. The goal then is both to slow down, harass, and CONCENTRATE the hobgoblins. When the real battle is joined, it's the PC's job to sneak somewhere under the cover of the battle where they can use one of those scrolls (better not roll a 1) to the most awesome effect.. and STAY there for the ten minutes to an hour that it requires to use it. The hobgobs will have to try and swarm the PCs to take out the cleric who read the scroll and thus controls the effect, and the PCs have to keep him alive and controlling the spell.

Storm of Vengeance and Elemental Swarm are the kinds of spells I'm thinking of - they summon deadly killing machines/effects that the vast majority of hobgoblins and low leveled hobgoblins simply can't deal with, so you get about an hour of relentless slaughter... and then you have to escape. Gradually, the odds become even, if they can pull it off.

Crow
2007-12-07, 09:35 PM
The Grand Priest isn't always super high level. Sometimes it is a political position.

That said, if they had access to 9th level scrolls, I think it would have been mentioned by now.

GoC
2007-12-08, 10:59 AM
Now I wait a decade or three, until the humans are used to the hobgoblin rule. Both countries could regenerate, the mutual pax hobgoblina and the exchange of people have bonded both states together. No we repeat the whole lesson with those pesky elves, and make sure that the mutual military struggle of my hobgoblins and humans will bond them even stronger together. After the Elves are subjugated as well, I'll do the same with the dwarves. Or I just wipe out those goblinoid slaying little bastards.

Only problem is that elves live a very long time and are somewhat harder to conquer. Dwarfs are very traditional with an iron will and also live quite a long time.
You'd have to destroy them and that's considerably harder as the elves have a much higher number of high-level characters than you do (due to their age advantage) and dwarves are not only a bit higher level but will also live in mountains and underground in defensible tunnels.
You might be able to destroy the elves but the dwarves will be impossible to rout and will send for help from far off dwarven kin (another benefit of their extended lifespan is that far off kingdoms are more loyal to eachother).

Dyvim
2007-12-10, 09:01 AM
Just a few quick questions, but what is this charismatic leader of hobgoblins plan?

Also, you've mentioned a crusade feel to this war. What is the objective of the crusade? Is it take the human city, or is it kill all humans.

If its like the historical first crusade and they are just aiming to take the city, you could simply abandon it to them. Sure, not a politically popular option for your king (and likely to have other powerful nobles wondering if they'd be better at the job, so rebellion and civil war is a possible outcome).
The advantage of this plan though is to leave the humans in control of vast amounts of the region, but not the city. The crusade should start to loose momentum once they have won what they set out to win. If many of the hobgoblin troops have been recruited for that sole goal, then they may want to return home. (Again, in the first crusade, after the initial backslapping and congratulations, the power struggles started to break out). Eventually, the historical crusader states ended up fragmented and practically besieged. True this took a long time, but it does offer an interesting backdrop for further adventures for your party. And, who knows, given time, they might just be coming back to that city as (high-level) liberators.

Of course, if the crusade is against the King personally, than that offers some very interesting possibilities for betraying him for the greater good, and installing a new King from the leading nobles.

Oh, regarding the elves... i can see them being very reluctant to ever commit troops to this war. They have long lives and long memories. Their culture will probably be carrying the wounds of past wars from long ago, and are going to be reluctant to gain new ones. Human cultures get over such things quickly, but the Elves are unlikely to be interested in fighting a war for someone else. Especially for a human kingdom that will soon forget the aid of the Elves and may even become enemies within a few brief decades. I think if the Elves are going to help they'll send anything other than troops. They might send scrolls or wands or other magical consumables, maybe wealth in the form of carefully polished gems or silks. They are very unlikely to give items that can be used against them in the long-term. So, permanent magic items are unlikely, unless they have purely peaceful uses. (Food and water generating type items, would be helpful afterall). Of course, tempting a few foolish young things into joining some sort of "foreign legion" might work, and the elves are a chaotic society usually, so policy from an Elf King is more like guidelines than rules. But I think the Elven King leading his forces against the hobgoblins is extremely unlikely.

Zenos
2007-12-10, 09:12 AM
Maybe they could, if the hobgobbos are out to take over the human lands and are not out to slaughter everybody, surrender their country whilst the king and most important government officials are leaving, then have the king and government direct a resistance from afar, doing small scale sabotage whilst the king or PC's convince the elves and dwarves to help them. I know of no dwarves who would want gobbos as neighbours. Especially if they might come for them.

Narmoth
2007-12-10, 09:25 AM
I would start by diging dithces or moats, like the ones used in 2nd world war to stop tanks. The whole population could do that.
Cast then create water on the first line. Archers will be shooting the hobgoblins as they try to get voer the ditches, and they aer to busy swimming to be able to fire back. (firing from rafts isn't any effective either)
Then, when a large part of their army gets up, assault them with chivalery. Preferably heavy one, but light can do.
The chivalerys main mission isn't to kill all those who came to their side of the ditch, but to make them panic and drive them back into it, so they colide with the arriving troops, push a lot of them into the water in armour, sink some rafts and generate general confusion. Not to mention that it would make a retaliation against the chivalery very hard. Offensive spells would be of help here.
The chivalery then retreats to the next line of fortifications, which is ditches filled with dry branches, covered with larger pieces of wood so they can be passed, which are set on fire once the first part of the invaders have passed, separating the army in smaler bands that can be killed of more easily.
Basically, you should make defencive terrain since you ahven't got any.

Also, since this is a kingdom largely of plains, the chivalery should be adept with bows, like the mogolian hordes, the russian heavy chivalery "drushina" and the indians on the american plains.
They would be able to charge parts of the hobgoblin army with spears, kill of some of them, then retreat, firing arrows, before the hobgoblin army manages to react properly to the attack.

If you have read the Sword of Truth books, you knwo what I'm talking about.
Traps are mostly uneffective against large armies, but trapvired chests that the chiefs will want to get opened in their precense and barrels of poisoned food are all nice to lower the amount of enemies.

In the end, I think an alliance with elves or dwarfs would be more likely to work than an alliance with the dragon.

You could also train the cityzens to be able to defend themselves against the invaders, but if I was the field general, I would abandon the first town without any consideration at all.
I wouldn't even trap it, like they would expect me to do.
They would then be overconfident when they take the next abandoned city, which I would trap very extensively.

More ideas to follow later :smallwink: