Most powerful Disintegrate at 12th level?

[Quertus]

What’s the most damage a 12th level character can pull off with a Disintegrate spell at 12th level? The most powerful Disintegrate that they can keep casting?

[ciopo]

With how much cheese?

the most I can think of right now is mild-cheese, early entry sublime chord (that codex arcana or whatever it's called from lords of madness onto arcana knowledge, + primary contact on listen)
wizard 8 / virtuoso 1 / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus 2 --> fit one practiced spellcaster ( sublime chord) in there, you will have 1 6th level slot, or 2 with 22 cha, and with very permissive reading of how it all combines your caster level with it will be 8+5+5, so 36d6.

sublime chord + (only one other arcane class) + ultimate magus is the one I most commonly go to if I want caster level above character level, but normally it only "takes off" from level 13th onward, and with less permissive reading it's only "+2 CL per ultimate magus level", with arcane power not double dipping and practiced spellcaster not working because you're already at CL>=HD

[sleepyphoenixx]

Probably not the limit, but it's what i could throw together in 15 minutes. So at least this much.
On the upside it's completely rules-legal - not a single questionable rules interpretation afaict.


Human Wizard 12, 1 flaw:

Feats:
Snowcasting
Frozen Magic (+2 CL to cold spells in cold weather)
Cold Spell Specialization (+2 damage/die for cold spells in cold weather)
Arcane Thesis (-1 to metamagic adjustment per feat, +2 CL)
Energy Substitution: Fire (prereq for Energy Admixture, fire to use abuse with Planar Bubble)
Invisible Spell - (Arcane Thesis fodder)
Sanctum Spell - (Arcane Thesis fodder)
Cooperative Spell - (Arcane Thesis fodder)
Energy Admixture: Fire (double damage and qualify for Planar Bubble (elemental plane of fire - free maximize and enlarge on fire spells)

Other requirements:
Frost Companion Spirit - +1 CL to cold spells
Cold Snap - +1 damage/die of cold spells and makes it cold enough for Frozen Magic & Cold Spell Specialization
Mantle of the Winter Witch (Dr#324) - +1 damage/die of cold spells
Scroll of Planar Bubble - free Maximize and Enlarge to fire spells
Summon Monster - to summon a fire elemental as a target for Planar Bubble
Metamagic Rod:Empower Spell
Create Magic Tattoo - +1 to CL
Ring of Arcane Might - +1 to CL
Ring of Mystic Fire - +1 to CL, +4d6 damage 1/day

After summoning a fire elemental and using Planar Bubble on it we're using Snowcasting to cast Invisible Cooperative Sanctum Empowered Enlarged Maximized Energy Admixture Disintegrate at CL 20.

Leading to [240 + (20d6 + 160) x 1.5] untyped damage + (240 + [(24d6 + 160) x 1.5] fire damage = ~585 untyped + ~606 fire damage or ~1191 damage.

Edit: Made a slight math mistake:

The math here is confusing me. I see:
[400 + (40d6 + 160) x 0.5] untyped damage + (440 + [(44d6 + 176) x 0.5] fire damage = ~550 untyped + ~605 fire damage or ~1155 damage. Am I missing something?

You can increase the damage further using Energy Substitution[Fire] Acid Sheath and Raging Flame. With these, I think you are at:
[480 + (40d6 + 240) x 0.5] untyped damage + (528 + [(44d6 + 264) x 0.5] fire damage = ~670 untyped + ~730 fire damage or ~1400 damage.

Anthrowhale got it right and added some improvements to the build.

[Biggus]

On the upside it's completely cheese-free - not a single questionable rules interpretation afaict.


Given the evidence of this post, I feel that "entirely rules-legal" and "completely cheese-free" are not exact synonyms :smalltongue:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Given the evidence of this post, I feel that "entirely rules-legal" and "completely cheese-free" are not exact synonyms :smalltongue:

Fair enough, i've corrected it. Cheese is a matter of perspective after all. :smallbiggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A dominant ideal ardent focusing on the destruction mantle can Empower its manifestings of psionic disintegrate for free and as many times as it wants, without spending additional power points or psionic focus to do so.

The only limits on the number of times you can apply a metapsionic feat to a power are the number of focuses you've got (obviated entirely by dominant ideal for the mantle you're focused on), the number of additional pp the feat costs (also obviated by dominant ideal), and the manifester level limits on how many pp you can spend on a single power (which is moot, since dominant mantle reduces the additional cost to nothing).

So NI damage by taking an ACF, one feat, and focusing on whatever mantle gets you the direct damage power you want -- in this case, psionic disintegrate.

You might as well take the Disintegration Finesse feat, from Lords of Madness, to give you more utility and flexibility with your manifestings of psionic disintegrate. Also, one or more means of recharging (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?604002-Recharging-power-points) power (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?264023-fastest-way-to-recharge-power-points) points (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?419258-Power-Point-Recharge-Trick) so you can manifest it as much as you want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A dominant ideal ardent focusing on the destruction mantle can Empower its manifestings of psionic disintegrate for free and as many times as it wants, without spending additional power points or psionic focus to do so.

Do you have a RAW source for allowing you to Empower a power more than once or are you just basing it on not having to expend psionic focus or extra pp?
The rules text on metapsionic feats may lack the explicit ban on applying the same feat to a power more than once, but that's not exactly permission.

By my interpretation it's still prohibited both by the the general rules on stacking (same source doesn't stack) and the rules on other power sources (RC p.137):

If an ability provided by the power source functions
like a spell, it follows the rules for spells. For example, a
psionic power functions like a spell.

And spells can't be affected by the same metamagic feat more than once.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do you have a RAW source for allowing you to Empower a power more than once or are you just basing it on not having to expend psionic focus or extra pp?
The rules text on metapsionic feats may lack the explicit ban on applying the same feat to a power more than once, but that's not exactly permission.Every single other meta- feat in the entire game explicitly prevents you from stacking meta- feats multiple times, while metapsionic feats do not. They are, however, restricted by psionic focus, which is even more restrictive in a lot of ways (dominant ideal notwithstanding). If you have a psionic focus, a metapsionic feat, a psionic power, and power points, you can apply the feat to the power by expending the focus. If you have multiple focuses, you can apply the feat multiple times.

If psionics didn't want you to be able to apply metapsionic feats more than once, it would say so. It's not at all broken -- that's reserved for the dominant ideal ACF.


By my interpretation it's still prohibited both by the the general rules on stacking (same source doesn't stack) and the rules on other power sources (RC p.137):

And spells can't be affected by the same metamagic feat more than once.I don't have the RC, so it doesn't apply. If you don't have the RC, it doesn't apply. If you don't want to use it, it doesn't apply. Whether or not it applies for you, it doesn't apply for me.

If the authors of the XPH wanted that rule to apply to psionics, they would've added it to errata, which is not pay-to-play.

Far as I'm concerned, the RC is just a way to get people to pay for really crappy "errata-that-is-not-actually-errata." It's skeevy as hell, and I won't touch it.

From everything I've read, it breaks the game at least as often as it "fixes" it, and the "fixes" tend to not make sense. I can only go off of what I've read second-hand, though, so take that as you will.

Plus, the stacking rules are only for bonuses. Empowering isn't bonus damage, so those don't apply, either.

[loky1109]

Every single other meta- feat in the entire game explicitly prevents you from stacking meta- feats multiple times, while metapsionic feats do not.
Some metabreath feats have clear permission. Other have no.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Some metabreath feats have clear permission. Other have no.Just rechecked the general metabreath rules in the Draconomicon. It has explicit rules regarding applying metabreath feats multiple times, so follow those.

And apparently, you can explicitly apply most metabreath feats multiple times, so that's one point on "some meta- feats can be used multiple times."

[Biggus]

Cheese is a matter of perspective after all. :smallbiggrin:

Absolutely. Maybe I'm being a bit conservative, but "able to do more than 14 times the expected damage" arguably qualifies :smallbiggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Absolutely. Maybe I'm being a bit conservative, but "able to do more than 14 times the expected damage" arguably qualifies :smallbiggrin:

In practice most level-appropriate enemies get oneshotted just by using the Snowcasting chain with Empower and a little CL boosting, so you're just wasting resources.:smalltongue:
The only ones that don't are generally dragons and other enemies with a lot of HD for their CR.

But yeah, not a build for an actual game. This build is strictly TO.
Though i do like Snowcasting both for damage and DC boosting, just not to this extent.

[remetagross]

@MaxiDuRarity: I'm finding this interpretation of the ACF to be a little troublesome, since it completely blows the class to smithereens. In order to see if the ACF can be interpreted in a saner way, I'm having the text of the Dominant Ideal ACF under the eyes, and something jumps at me:


Benefit: At 10th level, you choose one of your primary mantles to become the dominant ideal in your philosophy, deepening your connection to this fundamental principle. You do not need to expend your psionic focus when applying metapsionic feats to powers you manifest from your chosen primary mantle, and the power point cost of augmenting or applying metapsionic feats to these idealized powers is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0). The reduction in cost applies only to the additional power points spent on augmentation or metapsionic feats; the power's normal power point cost is not reduced.

Emphasize mine. See, it seems to me there are two ways of understanding the bolded part. Either it reduces the total power point cost of "augmenting or applying metapsionic feats" or it reduces the power point cost of each instance of "augmenting or applying metapsionic feats". Your reading seems to be the latter, in which case indeed, any metapsionic feat with a power point increase of 2 or less can be applied for free on the manifested power. However, the former reading seems equally valid to me, in which case only the first time any metapsionic feat is applied the reduction occurs, and for any other augmenting / metapsionic feat being used, there is no reduction anymore.

I guess to each his own, but that'd be the interpretation I'd go with as a GM, and wouldn't you agree that your intepretation isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it appear?

[ShurikVch]

It looks like Disintegrate, Psionic is the most powerful - even without the Dominant Ideal shenanigans: with 1 pp augmentation, Overchannel, and Empower Power it does (22d6+2d6)x1.5=36d6 damage
At 12th level it surpassing Ocular Adept's Implanted Eyeball (14d6), Sphere Minion's Disintegrate (22d6), vanilla Disintegrate (24d6), and Replacement Eye graft (26d6); Discorporating Breath of Bahamut and other known sources of Disintegrate are either don't even come online at 12th level (shenanigans aside), or duplicating already listed numbers (like Scientist's Invention - from Pulp Heroes - should do the same numbers as vanilla Disintegrate)

[sleepyphoenixx]

It looks like Disintegrate, Psionic is the most powerful - even without the Dominant Ideal shenanigans: with 1 pp augmentation, Overchannel, and Empower Power it does (22d6+2d6)x1.5=36d6 damage
At 12th level it surpassing Ocular Adept's Implanted Eyeball (14d6), Sphere Minion's Disintegrate (22d6), vanilla Disintegrate (24d6), and Replacement Eye graft (26d6); Discorporating Breath of Bahamut and other known sources of Disintegrate are either don't even come online at 12th level (shenanigans aside), or duplicating already listed numbers (like Scientist's Invention - from Pulp Heroes - should do the same numbers as vanilla Disintegrate)

It's not exactly a fair comparison if Psionic Disintegrate is the only one you apply any feats to.

[Thunder999]

Pretty sure you could have Circle Leader from red wizard by then, so theoretically could boost your way up to CL 20 and get a free maximise on it.
Easy 240 damage. Sudden Empower boosts that to 310 average damage.
You can fire off as many 40d6 (140 average) disintegrates as you have slots, but the big 310 one needs an hour of prep and a 1/day feat.

[Rebel7284]

Split ray is a very good metamagic to use with Disintegrate. +2 Slot adjustment for doubling everything? Yes please!

[Darg]

I guess to each his own, but that'd be the interpretation I'd go with as a GM, and wouldn't you agree that your intepretation isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it appear?

The same can be said for arcane thesis cheese; instead of adding everything together into a blender to get the total level reduction, you look at each individual metamagic. BUT that can't be cheesed so it couldn't possibly be right.

[ShurikVch]

It's not exactly a fair comparison if Psionic Disintegrate is the only one you apply any feats to.
Come on - 12th level: it's the highest-level spell you're able to cast at that point (certain cheese aside)
There are no higher slots to prepare metamagiced Disintegrate, and you can't even DMM it (it's 7th level in Destruction Domain)
But even if we slap Empower Spell on somehow - it's still just 36d6 (the same result as in my example)


Pretty sure you could have Circle Leader from red wizard by then, so theoretically could boost your way up to CL 20 and get a free maximise on it.
Easy 240 damage. Sudden Empower boosts that to 310 average damage.
You can fire off as many 40d6 (140 average) disintegrates as you have slots, but the big 310 one needs an hour of prep and a 1/day feat.
Not so fast: for a Circle Leader, number of participants is limited by 5 - it's +5 CL or +5 metamagic; Empowered Maximized Spell is +5; thus, 144+12d6 - i. e. 24d6+12d6=36d6, the same result as for my Disintegrate, Psionic example (if a bit more roll-independent)
Actually, it would work better if you limit it to just Empower Spell: CL 15 means (30d6)x1.5=45d6 (much better result than in my example)


Split ray is a very good metamagic to use with Disintegrate. +2 Slot adjustment for doubling everything? Yes please!
Was absolutely sure split-rays can't be aimed at the same target; but, apparently, they can...
Still, how would you apply +2 metamagic to 6th-level spell at 12th level?
Arcane Thesis?
Incantatrix?
Spelldancer?

[Thunder999]

Not so fast: for a Circle Leader, number of participants is limited by 5 - it's +5 CL or +5 metamagic; Empowered Maximized Spell is +5; thus, 144+12d6 - i. e. 24d6+12d6=36d6, the same result as for my Disintegrate, Psionic example (if a bit more roll-independent)


I was going off the DMG

The spell levels expended by the circle participants are totaled as circle bonus levels

Increase the circle leader's caster level by one for every circle bonus level expended (maximum caster level 40th).

You can do better than +1 per participant.

[ShurikVch]

I was going off the DMG

You can do better than +1 per participant.
OK (presuming you would be able to find the participants)

[Akal Saris]

On a similar note, a cleric with the Entropy domain could use similar cheese from Consumptive Field to raise their CL to 40, along with divine metamagic for empower/maximize/etc. However, in practice that means you're spending each morning trying to round up about 40 rats or goblins or w/e to sacrifice, so it's hardly a reasonable build.

[Doctor Despair]

On a similar note, a cleric with the Entropy domain could use similar cheese from Consumptive Field to raise their CL to 40, along with divine metamagic for empower/maximize/etc. However, in practice that means you're spending each morning trying to round up about 40 rats or goblins or w/e to sacrifice, so it's hardly a reasonable build.

Is it that unrealistic to breed rats in such quantity that you can sustainably cull 40 each day? We inadvertently caused communities to do that (to an even greater extent) IRL in the past by offering payment for rat tails to try to cull rat populations in the past.

[Endarire]

If you go with spells, Iron Will + Reserves of Strength gives you +3 caster level and at least +3 max caster level depending on interpretation.

You could be a Red Wizard with a CL40+ all day due to Circle Magic. Certain interpretations of Reserves of Strength will give you 86d6+ damage per cast.

There are also posts that explain how to increase caster/manifester level.

[Soranar]

You could always abuse ultimate magus/illumian and master spellthief

by using the alternate class features : spontaneous divination

Because of this, a simple wizard qualifies to become an ultimate magus (craft scroll + able to spontaneously cast 1 level spells)

1 Spellthief Practiced spellcaster (spellthief)
2 Wizard craft scroll, bonus feat traded for spontaneous divination
3 Wizard
4 Wizard
5 Wizard
6 Ultimate Magus Master Spellthief
7 Ultimate Magus
8 Ultimate Magus
9 Ultimate Magus
10 Ultimate Magus
11 Ultimate Magus
12 Wizard (bonus feat)

Tricks:

Ultimate magus states that you must progress the class with the lowest caster level at level 1, 4 and 7 but, because of illumian (+2) and practiced spellcaster (+4) at level 6 you spellthief caster level (6) is equal your wizard caster level at level 6 and once your master spellthief comes on they're always equal since they combine.

In the end your wizard caster level = 12 (11 class progression +1 from illumian)
and your spellthief caster level = 11 (1 base, 4 ultimate magus, 2 illumian, 4 practiced spellcaster)
which you combine for 23, and you could still all 3 more due to the ultimate magus arcane spellpower ability

you're still capped at 40d6 mind, so the rest of the feats should probably go to boosting sneak attack or stacking abilities on disintegrate

[Anthrowhale]

Leading to [240 + (20d6 + 160) x 1.5] untyped damage + (240 + [(24d6 + 160) x 1.5] fire damage = ~585 untyped + ~606 fire damage or ~1191 damage.

The math here is confusing me. I see:
[400 + (40d6 + 160) x 0.5] untyped damage + (440 + [(44d6 + 176) x 0.5] fire damage = ~550 untyped + ~605 fire damage or ~1155 damage. Am I missing something?

You can increase the damage further using Energy Substitution[Fire] Acid Sheath and Raging Flame. With these, I think you are at:
[480 + (40d6 + 240) x 0.5] untyped damage + (528 + [(44d6 + 264) x 0.5] fire damage = ~670 untyped + ~730 fire damage or ~1400 damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Come on - 12th level: it's the highest-level spell you're able to cast at that point (certain cheese aside)
There are no higher slots to prepare metamagiced Disintegrate, and you can't even DMM it (it's 7th level in Destruction Domain)
But even if we slap Empower Spell on somehow - it's still just 36d6 (the same result as in my example)

My build shows plenty of ways to increase the damage without increasing the spell slot. All of them are rules legal.
Even if you disregard metamagic reducers - which i'd think rather silly since it's what blaster mages tend to rely on - there's still the +4 damage/die from Cold Spell Spec, Cold Snap and the Mantle of the Winter Witch.


The math here is confusing me. I see:
[400 + (40d6 + 160) x 0.5] untyped damage + (440 + [(44d6 + 176) x 0.5] fire damage = ~550 untyped + ~605 fire damage or ~1155 damage. Am I missing something?

You can increase the damage further using Energy Substitution[Fire] Acid Sheath and Raging Flame. With these, I think you are at:
[480 + (40d6 + 240) x 0.5] untyped damage + (528 + [(44d6 + 264) x 0.5] fire damage = ~670 untyped + ~730 fire damage or ~1400 damage.

Yeah, i made a mistake calculating the effect of Empower. Accidentally multiplied the "half of 40d6" part by 1.5 again when it should've only been the bonus damage. Good catch.

[ShurikVch]

My build shows plenty of ways to increase the damage without increasing the spell slot. All of them are rules legal.
Even if you disregard metamagic reducers - which i'd think rather silly since it's what blaster mages tend to rely on
The only metamagic reducer in your build is Arcane Thesis (-1)
Energy Admixture is +4 metamagic
How?!.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only metamagic reducer in your build is Arcane Thesis (-1)
Energy Admixture is +4 metamagic
How?!.

Arcane Thesis is -1 per metamagic feat you apply. That's not a matter of interpretation, the example in the feat text spells it right out.
The only stipulation is that a spell can not be reduced below its original level. The downside is that it only applies to a single spell, unlike other MM reducers.

Invisible Spell, Sanctum Spell and Cooperative Spell are all +0 metamagics, so an invisible sanctum cooperative energy admixture spell is -4 to metamagic adjustment, or 0.

Why else did you think i took those? It's pretty much the only reason to ever take Cooperative Spell, aside from Mage of the Arcane Order.

[Darg]

Why else did you think i took those? It's pretty much the only reason to ever take Cooperative Spell, aside from Mage of the Arcane Order.

I've seen it used to good effect. It increases the base DC to the highest of the group, increases the DC by +1 per member, and increases the caster level of the spell by +1 per additional member. It is +0 to the slot so you can put it on everything and if the situation warrants blow stuff up together.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've seen it used to good effect. It increases the base DC to the highest of the group, increases the DC by +1 per member, and increases the caster level of the spell by +1 per additional member. It is +0 to the slot so you can put it on everything and if the situation warrants blow stuff up together.
And how many spellcasters of the same class do your parties usually have? How often are you in a situation where you all want to cast the same spell?
Yeah, once in a blue moon when all the stars align it can be used "to good effect". The other 99% it does absolutely nothing except take up one of your feat slots.

Opportunity cost is also a factor when choosing feats, and a feat you can't use most of the time is not a good feat even if its effect is reasonably strong.

At least when used for its own effect.
If you're using it as Arcane Thesis fodder i have no issues with it, but on its own the conditions to make proper use of it are too rare to make it worth taking.

It's a fun NPC feat, but for players it's simply too situational to be good.

[Darg]

And how many spellcasters of the same class do your parties usually have? How often are you in a situation where you all want to cast the same spell?
Yeah, once in a blue moon when all the stars align it can be used "to good effect". The other 99% it does absolutely nothing except take up one of your feat slots.

That depends on what we feel like playing at the time. There have been plenty of times where we've had multiple wizards, sorcerers, or bards in the group. There can be overlap, and we have used the feat to good effect. Remember, it's 0 cost so you can have it active and available all the time. Is it more niche than other metamagics? Can be. I see it getting more use than delay spell. We like to play more interdependent than players seem to on these boards.

[animewatcha]

What about the 1 wizard / X mystic ranger shooting star / sword of arcane order caster level-ness with a prepared sanctum disintegrate powered by reserves of strength to remove caster level limit? Is this doable?