Insane stat rolling

[adb82]

Hi everyone, we are near to start a new campaign and the GM allowed us to roll stats. I got unbelievable rolls: 18, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11, so I'm here now to build something unusual. I have in mind 2 ideas, both include a Bladesinger.

1) 1 LV of monk and than all bladesinger, getting to use a quarterstaff with dex and getting crusher and PAM for push enemies in my spell's area effect, like web, sleet storm, wall of fire and so on, and getting also a second attack with a bonus action for be sure to use, at least 1 time, crusher in my turn. Unarmored defense should stack with bladesong so it seem a nice dip to me. The "problem" seem that he need many feats for work well: crusher, pam and warcaster at least, and starting with con 14 (+1 by crusher) is maybe not nice especially in the beginning with few uses of bladesong and so easier ways to lose concentration, but at the same time 16 wis give us the right unarmored defense.

Other unusual build I was thinking about is a Palasinger. Paladin 2/Bladesinger X, not necessary in this order. This is totally mad, but using my two 13 for str and cha I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int, he just need elven accuracy and maybe +2 Dex for work perfectly and he can probably easily find a +1 light armor or buy it as we can get 2 uncommon objects from the magic objects, we also gonna start from 5th LV so I'm not sure if go directly Paladin 2 or stop to Paladin 1 for get the second dip around the 8th LV character, for get extra attack asap.

The two characters are machanically very different, but I honestly like both and I'm open to any kind of character that is normally impossible to play with point buy (however, the monksinger probable work also with point buy).

What do you think about?
Have you any other suggestions for build something unusual with those stats?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hi everyone, we are near to start a new campaign and the GM allowed us to roll stats. I got unbelievable rolls: 18, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11, so I'm here now to build something unusual. I have in mind 2 ideas, both include a Bladesinger.

1) 1 LV of monk and than all bladesinger, getting to use a quarterstaff with dex and getting crusher and PAM for push enemies in my spell's area effect, like web, sleet storm, wall of fire and so on, and getting also a second attack with a bonus action for be sure to use, at least 1 time, crusher in my turn. Unarmored defense should stack with bladesong so it seem a nice dip to me. The "problem" seem that he need many feats for work well: crusher, pam and warcaster at least, and starting with con 14 (+1 by crusher) is maybe not nice especially in the beginning with few uses of bladesong and so easier ways to lose concentration, but at the same time 16 wis give us the right unarmored defense.

Other unusual build I was thinking about is a Palasinger. Paladin 2/Bladesinger X, not necessary in this order. This is totally mad, but using my two 13 for str and cha I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int, he just need elven accuracy and maybe +2 Dex for work perfectly and he can probably easily find a +1 light armor or buy it as we can get 2 uncommon objects from the magic objects, we also gonna start from 5th LV so I'm not sure if go directly Paladin 2 or stop to Paladin 1 for get the second dip around the 8th LV character, for get extra attack asap.

The two characters are machanically very different, but I honestly like both and I'm open to any kind of character that is normally impossible to play with point buy (however, the monksinger probable work also with point buy).

What do you think about?
Have you any other suggestions for build something unusual with those stats?

I'm currently playing a Paladin 2 / Swords Bard X and don't really have experience with monk, so I'll stick to commenting on your 2nd option. Broadly I'd say if you discount the MADness of your proposed build (which you basically do with those rolls) it's stronger than the Swords Bard option largely because the multi-attack on a Bladesinger is better. So, from level 8 on you'll get a lot of mileage out of resourceless attacks and your build is 'online'.

That leaves the question of what happens before that. Given that you're starting at level 5, you've only got 3 levels to worry about. I played from level 1, did both Paladin levels, then swapped over. The character played like a Paladin for the most part at early levels. I tended to cast 1 spell then start swinging; if I couldn't pre-cast I used Shield of Faith more than I planned as it's a BA. Of course I didn't get my subclass, but had extra slots vs a full Paly. One big thing that helped me was that I took PAM at level 1, so had 2 swings/ round to Smite with and nova when needed. That definitely compensated through the levels you're playing for not having either extra attack or the bigger spells; though post 8th level I'm now wondering if using the feat on that was worth it. Given that you'll be using a 2nd weapon that'll sort itself out.

In short, if this concept appeals to you I'd say do it. It seems like one that's strong but too MAD to be workable without the rolls you have.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Can I ask what you're doing with the build? IE are you planning to Tank, just Front line DPS and control, etc?

I love tanking so obviously I'm colored here BUT. If I was going to a tank Monk/Bladesinger, starting at 5th...

I'd probably start with Monk 1/Wizard 4.

You said you get 2 Uncommon Magic items? Instead of Studded Leather +1 might I suggest Amulet of Health to put you at Con 19.

Stats would be Str 13, Dex 18, Con 19(11), Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 13. AC is 18, 22 with Bladesong, 27 with Shield.

I'd take Crusher first. Because right now you have a choice of a single attack Cantrip or Attacking 2, using Flurry for the same effect as PAM. Once you hit 6 that changes, but then at 8 you can grab PAM if you really miss having that Bonus attack d4 damage.

[Sorinth]

If going Monk I would suggest going up to 3 and taking Kensei after getting Extra Attack from Bladesinger. An extra +2AC on top of Bladesinging and great stats is quite strong.

With your stats and Bracers of Defence you could be sitting at 19 AC (Unarmored Defence) +2 (Bracers) +4 Bladesinging + 2 (Kensei) for a base AC of 27 which you could pump with the Shield spell, force attacks at Disadvantage a few times per SR making you basically unhittable. Not too mention things like Haste.

[Dante]

1) 1 LV of monk and than all bladesinger, getting to use a quarterstaff with dex and getting crusher and PAM for push enemies in my spell's area effect, like web, sleet storm, wall of fire and so on, and getting also a second attack with a bonus action for be sure to use, at least 1 time, crusher in my turn. Unarmored defense should stack with bladesong so it seem a nice dip to me... Have you any other suggestions for build something unusual with those stats?

Assuming you put your 16 in Wis and the 17 and 18 in Dex/Int respectively, I don't see what Unarmored Defense is bringing to the table. It gives you a base AC of 13, but you could get that anyway from Mage Armor.

Barb 1 would be a more interesting option so you could use Con-based Unarmored Defense (so that eventually pumping Con from 16 to 20 is an AC boost and a HP boost) and so you have the option of Raging while Bladesinging (although if your DM uses the new MPMoM, Rage gets significantly worse because so many monsters' damage was converted from magical bludgeoning/piercing/slashing to other types like force/fire/necrotic/thunder--I would suggest to your DM that he ignore MPMoM and stick with Volo's/MToF).

Anyway, when I roll an unusual stat array, I typically want to make it into a PC who isn't necessarily more powerful than a PC with a more normal array but might be more unusual. For example, Hexblade 2/Shadow Monk X is pretty fun but has the downside of being quite MAD, since you want Dex, Wis, Cha, and Con. Monk/Paladin is another potentially-fun combo that requires just absurdly good stats (Str 15ish, Dex, Wis, Cha 20ish, Con).

[adb82]

I'm currently playing a Paladin 2 / Swords Bard X and don't really have experience with monk, so I'll stick to commenting on your 2nd option. Broadly I'd say if you discount the MADness of your proposed build (which you basically do with those rolls) it's stronger than the Swords Bard option largely because the multi-attack on a Bladesinger is better. So, from level 8 on you'll get a lot of mileage out of resourceless attacks and your build is 'online'.

That leaves the question of what happens before that. Given that you're starting at level 5, you've only got 3 levels to worry about. I played from level 1, did both Paladin levels, then swapped over. The character played like a Paladin for the most part at early levels. I tended to cast 1 spell then start swinging; if I couldn't pre-cast I used Shield of Faith more than I planned as it's a BA. Of course I didn't get my subclass, but had extra slots vs a full Paly. One big thing that helped me was that I took PAM at level 1, so had 2 swings/ round to Smite with and nova when needed. That definitely compensated through the levels you're playing for not having either extra attack or the bigger spells; though post 8th level I'm now wondering if using the feat on that was worth it. Given that you'll be using a 2nd weapon that'll sort itself out.

In short, if this concept appeals to you I'd say do it. It seems like one that's strong but too MAD to be workable without the rolls you have.

Yep, the concept is kinda same, going bladesinger give just better spells, better AC and better saves, but basically it work in the same way except that the one way for a bladesinger to get PAM is getting a dip in monk, otherwhise he should use str for attacks and even with my stats it would be a problem.


Can I ask what you're doing with the build? IE are you planning to Tank, just Front line DPS and control, etc?

I love tanking so obviously I'm colored here BUT. If I was going to a tank Monk/Bladesinger, starting at 5th...

I'd probably start with Monk 1/Wizard 4.

You said you get 2 Uncommon Magic items? Instead of Studded Leather +1 might I suggest Amulet of Health to put you at Con 19.

Stats would be Str 13, Dex 18, Con 19(11), Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 13. AC is 18, 22 with Bladesong, 27 with Shield.

I'd take Crusher first. Because right now you have a choice of a single attack Cantrip or Attacking 2, using Flurry for the same effect as PAM. Once you hit 6 that changes, but then at 8 you can grab PAM if you really miss having that Bonus attack d4 damage.

Well, given that in my party there are a healer asimar warlock/cleric, an hexadin, a monk firbolg and my character i was assuming they will need a wizard for sure and possibly a tank also, so probably the monk/bladesinger works better for this, now that we have solved the problem with con im considering it much more than the palasinger. From the other side i think that the palasinger is just broke lol, i just was curious to try it becouse i can't play anything like that with other stats and who knows when im gonna roll this stats again lol (i don't think i have rolled anything like that in the past...25 years :D ) and also becouse i liked the idea of the Shadar Kai elf for the bg, that would be useless in the monk build as it boost con and as it don't need elven accuracy, but im sure i can figure it out using some dragonborn with which i can choose which stat to bump and i can anyway build a nice lore and that gives me resistance to one element and an AoA x proficiency bonus with good damage without expending any other resources. Btw, if you areasking why im not using tasha's rules it's becouse it's the one my dm banned as he like the races as they are.

Do you mean start with the first lv in monk? I was thinking about it, but str is really a bad save, dex is nice but wis is kinda necessary for dont get frightened and int is anyway better than str, all at the cost of 2 hit points. So im not sure with which is better to start.

I didn't think about the amulet, thats just awesome and probably let me wait till next asi for warcaster.


If going Monk I would suggest going up to 3 and taking Kensei after getting Extra Attack from Bladesinger. An extra +2AC on top of Bladesinging and great stats is quite strong.

With your stats and Bracers of Defence you could be sitting at 19 AC (Unarmored Defence) +2 (Bracers) +4 Bladesinging + 2 (Kensei) for a base AC of 27 which you could pump with the Shield spell, force attacks at Disadvantage a few times per SR making you basically unhittable. Not too mention things like Haste.

This is also a good trick, in practice if i decide to attack with an unarmed strike instead of one of my 2 attack (3 if we include the unarmed strike as a bonus action, but in this case we need to use the attack action) with the quarterstaff i get +2 AC till my next turn, it's very strong, but i'm not totally sure it is worth the spell's and slots delay, 3 ki point's for short rest are not so much, but the dodge or disengage action in the right time of the battle helps and unarmored movement is fantastic on the bladesinger, maybe once i get sleet storm and wall of fire ill think about it becouse for sure it's interesting, i just have to think about if i want to delay 5th 6th and 7th lv spells 2 lv more.

[adb82]

Assuming you put your 16 in Wis and the 17 and 18 in Dex/Int respectively, I don't see what Unarmored Defense is bringing to the table. It gives you a base AC of 13, but you could get that anyway from Mage Armor.

Barb 1 would be a more interesting option so you could use Con-based Unarmored Defense (so that eventually pumping Con from 16 to 20 is an AC boost and a HP boost) and so you have the option of Raging while Bladesinging (although if your DM uses the new MPMoM, Rage gets significantly worse because so many monsters' damage was converted from magical bludgeoning/piercing/slashing to other types like force/fire/necrotic/thunder--I would suggest to your DM that he ignore MPMoM and stick with Volo's/MToF).

Anyway, when I roll an unusual stat array, I typically want to make it into a PC who isn't necessarily more powerful than a PC with a more normal array but might be more unusual. For example, Hexblade 2/Shadow Monk X is pretty fun but has the downside of being quite MAD, since you want Dex, Wis, Cha, and Con. Monk/Paladin is another potentially-fun combo that requires just absurdly good stats (Str 15ish, Dex, Wis, Cha 20ish, Con).

Barb don't give me access to use a quarterstaff with dex, so PAM and crusher are totally useless, and while in rage i cant concentrate on spells and that's not my concept for the character, as he want to push enemies in his own spell's area effect, especially spells that halves/reduces (i dont remember which one stacks with Spirit Guardians, but i'm sure one does) the speed, for make sort of combo with the cleric of the group and his spirit guardian.
I played a similar charatcer, the concept i suppose is very near with what you was suggesting, but it was a drow barb/warlock with armor of agathys, very fun.

About the MC you propose im gonna check what i can build fun mixing them, as i said im not interested to the more powerfull build possibile in terms of damage (or probably i should had choose palasinger directly), but something unusual to play that those stats will make really shine, but as i said in the previews post, my group is made by an healer, a monk, and an hexadin smiter, i suppose they much more need a wizard/tank than a paladin/monk or hexmonk, while both ideas are nice and are great for build a very nice lore.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Do you mean start with the first lv in monk? I was thinking about it, but str is really a bad save, dex is nice but wis is kinda necessary for dont get frightened and int is anyway better than str, all at the cost of 2 hit points. So im not sure with which is better to start.

I didn't think about the amulet, thats just awesome and probably let me wait till next asi for warcaster.

Wizard first makes better sense, I just tend to write Least level to highest. Whichever Saves and starting set up works better for you. It's either Str and Dex Saves and 8 base HP or Int and Wis saves and 6 base HP.

As an aside, If you can survive without ever getting 20 Int (so staying at +4). I would also recommend the Headband of Intellect. Which means Stats could be Str 13, Dex 18, Con 19(11), Int 19(13), Wis 18, Cha 18.

Then you can start throwing in Warlock or Paladin or Sorcerer shenanigans. :)

[Urbanmech]

With 18, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11 and wanting to do a tanky wizard, what about Tortle Bladesinger? You can go Str 18, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 11. At level 1 your AC is a respectable 18 and you have 10 HP. You can melee with a staff if anyone gets close. Once you get Bladesinging your AC jumps to 21 at 2nd level and only goes up from there. You can even choose something like a long sword or war hammer as your weapon of choice since you are using Strength to attack. The plus side of this is your spellcasting is unhindered and you will get everything at level instead of delayed by 1.

[Angelalex242]

I might've used straight monk with that. A Vhuman, initial feat observant (18 wis) take your level 4 and level 8 ASIs to hit 20 in dex and wis, and then have a monk with all the monk feats you could ever ask for. Monks with feats are rare critters. Mobility, Alert, the bludgeon damage feat which escapes me, good old fashioned Lucky...

Drop that 16 in Con and you can be a rare monk with actual HP!

[adb82]

Wizard first makes better sense, I just tend to write Least level to highest. Whichever Saves and starting set up works better for you. It's either Str and Dex Saves and 8 base HP or Int and Wis saves and 6 base HP.

As an aside, If you can survive without ever getting 20 Int (so staying at +4). I would also recommend the Headband of Intellect. Which means Stats could be Str 13, Dex 18, Con 19(11), Int 19(13), Wis 18, Cha 18.

Then you can start throwing in Warlock or Paladin or Sorcerer shenanigans. :)

Well, im not sure, but maybe it can.
Assuming a Gem dragonborn, a kor, or a vedalken, i could get 18/18/18 in wis, int and dex getting 19 in con with the amulet. There are also few other races that grants me the same but they are not so optimal if i didn't miss anything. Honestly the best would be if my GM allow me to use a pureblood switching the cha bonus to wis, but well, we'll see, the Vedalken is anyway a nice pick, even i would prefer the Yuan-ti for the lore probably.
That said, at lv 5 it needs to get Crusher, than lv 9 is for PAM, next is warcaster or +2 int.
If we start from it, is not better start with dex 20, int 18 and wis 16? Unarmored defense + dex would be anyway 18, but i need dex also for hit, while wisdom don't give me anything more than a better save as it's for dex.

About throw in lv of paladin or warlock and/or sorcerer, i suppose i can do it even without 18 cha, i have two 13, once i put them in str and cha and leave con 11 (19 with the amulet) i can easily MC paladin for two lv and smites, but as im going for the tanky and pushy way maybe get 2 lv more in monk (kensei) can be better, even im not that sure to want to delay 5th, 6th and 7th lv spells two lv more, maybe i will go for it after lv 14 of the character.

ps probably for the race, wildhunt also is a good choice, advantage on any wis check, can't be attacked with advantage and temp hit points, and anyway +2 wis and +1 dex, so is still possible to get 18/18/18/19.

[adb82]

With 18, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11 and wanting to do a tanky wizard, what about Tortle Bladesinger? You can go Str 18, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 11. At level 1 your AC is a respectable 18 and you have 10 HP. You can melee with a staff if anyone gets close. Once you get Bladesinging your AC jumps to 21 at 2nd level and only goes up from there. You can even choose something like a long sword or war hammer as your weapon of choice since you are using Strength to attack. The plus side of this is your spellcasting is unhindered and you will get everything at level instead of delayed by 1.

I think you gonna start with 17 AC, but thats not the point, as a bladesinger i would not have access to longswords and war hammers, anyway it's something to think about becouse it don't delay spells in this way and that's great, but generally im not a huge fun of tortles speaking about lore.


I might've used straight monk with that. A Vhuman, initial feat observant (18 wis) take your level 4 and level 8 ASIs to hit 20 in dex and wis, and then have a monk with all the monk feats you could ever ask for. Monks with feats are rare critters. Mobility, Alert, the bludgeon damage feat which escapes me, good old fashioned Lucky...

Drop that 16 in Con and you can be a rare monk with actual HP!

We already have a firbolg monk in the party, but i love monks. :P

[Kane0]

Hi everyone, we are near to start a new campaign and the GM allowed us to roll stats. I got unbelievable rolls: 18, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11, so I'm here now to build something unusual.

1) 1 LV of monk and than all bladesinger
2) Paladin 2/Bladesinger X, not necessary in this order

What do you think about?
Have you any other suggestions for build something unusual with those stats?


I believe the traditional response is monk/paladin, a good multiclass that is also quite MAD.

Anyways, my vote goes to option 2

[HPisBS]

Heck, with 3 great starting stats, I'd go straight Monk all the way. We typically think of Monks being MAD because they need 2 main stats: Dex and Wis, but they really want a 3rd: Con. If you're in the thick of things, you really want that extra hp.

Moreover, since you're interested in building something unusual, there's a certain neat little tactic that becomes particularly noteworthy when you have a high Con mod: Be a Dodge-Heal Tank.


First, you pick some flavor of Dwarf. (If you prefer to avoid custom lineages, then I think Hill Dwarf is the only flavor that even gets a Wis bonus.)
Then, you grab Dwarven Fortitude. Voilà. Now, after every time you get hit, you can just Patient Defense and give all enemies disadvantage when trying to hit your 18+ AC, and – most importantly – heal a good chunk of whatever damage they just dealt you.

Grab Durable after that to even your Con back up and that raises your bonus action Healing Dodge up to 8-12 hp. Or 10-13 hp if you're a non-custom Hill Dwarf.

Combine that with Way of the Long Death and you have a heck of a tank build.


TLDR:
High Con + Dwarf + Long Death Monk + Dwarven Fortitude (heal via Dodge) + Durable (minimum healing = Con mod X 2) = Constantly Healing Dodge Tank

[Gwin Thornspear]

[QUOTE=adb82;25489547]
Other unusual build I was thinking about is a Palasinger. Paladin 2/Bladesinger X, not necessary in this order. This is totally mad, but using my two 13 for str and cha I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int, he just need elven accuracy and maybe +2 Dex for work perfectly and he can probably easily find a +1 light armor or buy it as we can get 2 uncommon objects from the magic objects, we also gonna start from 5th LV so I'm not sure if go directly Paladin 2 or stop to Paladin 1 for get the second dip around the 8th LV character, for get extra attack asap.

This seems like a very cool concept, being a holy warrior that harnesses the arcane and divine through song. I might go 2 Paladin to get smite.

[Gwin Thornspear]

[QUOTE=adb82;25489547] Other unusual build I was thinking about is a Palasinger. Paladin 2/Bladesinger X, not necessary in this order. This is totally mad, but using my two 13 for str and cha I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int, he just need elven accuracy and maybe +2 Dex for work perfectly and he can probably easily find a +1 light armor or buy it as we can get 2 uncommon objects from the magic objects, we also gonna start from 5th LV so I'm not sure if go directly Paladin 2 or stop to Paladin 1 for get the second dip around the 8th LV character, for get extra attack asap.


This seems like a very cool concept, being a holy warrior that harnesses the arcane and divine through song. I might go 2 Paladin to get smite.

[Gwin Thornspear]

Other unusual build I was thinking about is a Palasinger. Paladin 2/Bladesinger X, not necessary in this order. This is totally mad, but using my two 13 for str and cha I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int, he just need elven accuracy and maybe +2 Dex for work perfectly and he can probably easily find a +1 light armor or buy it as we can get 2 uncommon objects from the magic objects, we also gonna start from 5th LV so I'm not sure if go directly Paladin 2 or stop to Paladin 1 for get the second dip around the 8th LV character, for get extra attack asap.


This seems like a very cool concept, being a holy warrior that harnesses the arcane and divine through song. I might go 2 Paladin to get smite.

[adb82]

I believe the traditional response is monk/paladin, a good multiclass that is also quite MAD.

Anyways, my vote goes to option 2

Many of you are talking about this MC, but maybe i didnt get how it work, becouse it seem to me to be kinda bad, you never have enough slots and ki points at the same time for smite, becouse you won't double extra attack, plus it's not that clear if you can smite with an unarmed strike or not, can someone tell me what i'm missing about this MC?

PS maybe adding some sorcerer over paladin 2/monk 5 can work, but as i said maybe im missing something about the build, as i think that if we leave paladin at lv 4 we dont have enough slots, as if we leave monk at 4 we don't have enough ki points, but maybe something like pala 2/monk 9/ sorcerer 9 can be nice to play finding the right levels for multiclass.


Heck, with 3 great starting stats, I'd go straight Monk all the way. We typically think of Monks being MAD because they need 2 main stats: Dex and Wis, but they really want a 3rd: Con. If you're in the thick of things, you really want that extra hp.

Moreover, since you're interested in building something unusual, there's a certain neat little tactic that becomes particularly noteworthy when you have a high Con mod: Be a Dodge-Heal Tank.


First, you pick some flavor of Dwarf. (If you prefer to avoid custom lineages, then I think Hill Dwarf is the only flavor that even gets a Wis bonus.)
Then, you grab Dwarven Fortitude. Voilà. Now, after every time you get hit, you can just Patient Defense and give all enemies disadvantage when trying to hit your 18+ AC, and – most importantly – heal a good chunk of whatever damage they just dealt you.

Grab Durable after that to even your Con back up and that raises your bonus action Healing Dodge up to 8-12. Or 10-13 if you're a non-custom Hill Dwarf.

Combine that with Way of the Long Death and you have a heck of a tank build.


TLDR:
High Con + Dwarf + Long Death Monk + Dwarven Fortitude (heal via Dodge) + Durable (minimum healing = Con mod X 2) = Constantly Healing Dodge Tank

This is interesting, as i said we already have a firbolg monk, so straigh monk was not an option, but ill think about this becouse it's a very unusual way to build a monk and i like it.


[QUOTE=Gwin Thornspear;25490405]


This seems like a very cool concept, being a holy warrior that harnesses the arcane and divine through song. I might go 2 Paladin to get smite.

Well, more than an "holy warrior" a monk is maybe an hermit and a martial art expert, which i think match very well with the bladesinger concept. Yep, he gonna get the second lv paladin once he reach lv 8, before you don't have enough slots for smite that often and you won't delay extra attack, feats, 3th and 4th lv spells, all just for an occasional smite and a fighting style i suppose.

[qube]

18, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11

The two characters are machanically very different, but I honestly like both and I'm open to any kind of character that is normally impossible to play with point buy (however, the monksinger probable work also with point buy).How about ... first ignoring the rules, and make a character concept that sounds fun? Then check how to build it. Because of the stats you'll have a decent amount of leeway.

I mean ... when I read things like


I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int

You can have any race, and still be on par with the rest of the part. Go nuts.

[Daracaex]

I don't believe any version of this with quarterstaff works because Bladesong requires a one-handed weapon (ends early if you use both hands to make an attack).

[adb82]

How about ... first ignoring the rules, and make a character concept that sounds fun? Then check how to build it. Because of the stats you'll have a decent amount of leeway.

I mean ... when I read things like


I can have a shadar Kai or a goblin with 18 Dex, 18, con and 18 int

You can have any race, and still be on par with the rest of the part. Go nuts.

Absolutly right, but all that sentence start from the fact that i would love to role a shadar-kai or a goblin that also would get unbelieveble stats, while i would like less to role a warforged for exemple.
The character concept i found for both of my build is kinda same, but thats becouse we roll for the lore and than we create a background of the character basing everything about the rolls we made about its lore. For exemple my character was grown from other race, that's already sure becouse i rolled it, so that's why i picked bladesinger: the other race are the elves. Finally both the character i posted, from a role playing point, match with what i want to role, than i thought that in my party probably they need a tank much more than other smiter, and thats why i was prefering the monk/bladesinger. Than i listen every hint and build becouse maybe i can anyway find something matching with my taste, mechanically and for the lore, and so i can can choose it istead of one of the build i was thinking about.

[adb82]

I don't believe any version of this with quarterstaff works because Bladesong requires a one-handed weapon (ends early if you use both hands to make an attack).

You can use a quarterstaff with one hand, it dont have the two handed property but the versatile property, it mean you can choose to use it with one or 2 hands, if you use it with 2 hands it deal extra damage.

[Keravath]

If going Monk I would suggest going up to 3 and taking Kensei after getting Extra Attack from Bladesinger. An extra +2AC on top of Bladesinging and great stats is quite strong.

With your stats and Bracers of Defence you could be sitting at 19 AC (Unarmored Defence) +2 (Bracers) +4 Bladesinging + 2 (Kensei) for a base AC of 27 which you could pump with the Shield spell, force attacks at Disadvantage a few times per SR making you basically unhittable. Not too mention things like Haste.

The +2 AC only applies if the Kensai makes an unarmed strike as part of their attack action. With only 3 levels in monk - this will only ever be a non-magical d4+stat attack - giving up one of the bladesinger attacks with a weapon that is likely enchanted and doing significantly more damage just for a +2 AC doesn't really seem like a good trade.

[Damon_Tor]

TLDR:
High Con + Dwarf + Long Death Monk + Dwarven Fortitude (heal via Dodge) + Durable (minimum healing = Con mod X 2) = Constantly Healing Dodge Tank

Ah yes, my Wolverine build.

Interesting note, the Beast Barbarian's claws count as monk weapons, which means they do more damage as your martial arts dice upgrade.

[Sorinth]

The +2 AC only applies if the Kensai makes an unarmed strike as part of their attack action. With only 3 levels in monk - this will only ever be a non-magical d4+stat attack - giving up one of the bladesinger attacks with a weapon that is likely enchanted and doing significantly more damage just for a +2 AC doesn't really seem like a good trade.

AC is worth more the more you have, so that +2 AC is especially valuable for this build because you would already have a very high AC. For example going from enemies hitting you on a 16 to 18 is a 50% boost. So yes you a few points of damage but it would still be worth it more often then not. And don't forget it's not like you can't change things up round to round depending on the situation depending on whether you are tanking/concentrating on an important spell or trying to deal damage.

[HPisBS]

Ah yes, my Wolverine build.

Interesting note, the Beast Barbarian's claws count as monk weapons, which means they do more damage as your martial arts dice upgrade.

I just realized it really would be Wolverine-ish since Logan's supposed to be 5'3". lol

I usually ignore Barbarian altogether, but I guess rage would help tank, if nothing else. Claws are basically just flavor, and if I wanted to be Wolverine-ish, I'd personally be satisfied with daggers. Though, I guess if you were more interested in trading attacks than stunning or frightening enemies, going Hill Dwarf with those 2 half-feats would put Con to 20, making the Barb's Unarmored Defense slightly better than the Monk's.

Rage's damage bonus would be wasted though, unless the DM provides a Str-boosting item.

[Damon_Tor]

I just realized it really would be Wolverine-ish since Logan's supposed to be 5'3". lol

I usually ignore Barbarian altogether, but I guess rage would help tank, if nothing else. Claws are basically just flavor, and if I wanted to be Wolverine-ish, I'd personally be satisfied with daggers. Though, I guess if you were more interested in trading attacks than stunning or frightening enemies, going Hill Dwarf with those 2 half-feats would put Con to 20, making the Barb's Unarmored Defense slightly better than the Monk's.

Rage's damage bonus would be wasted though, unless the DM provides a Str-boosting item.

Well on my build I wasn't super worried about AC, so I left my dex at 14 and used str as my attack stat. Of course with the OPs godlike rolls he could get 3 different stats to 18 at 1st level, so he could max out str and con and dex with enough wis to qualify for the multiclass.

[adb82]

The +2 AC only applies if the Kensai makes an unarmed strike as part of their attack action. With only 3 levels in monk - this will only ever be a non-magical d4+stat attack - giving up one of the bladesinger attacks with a weapon that is likely enchanted and doing significantly more damage just for a +2 AC doesn't really seem like a good trade.

Well, once you hit with the first attack using Booming Blade, the second attack just gonna deal 1d6 + dex + eventually the magic modifier of the weapon, thats not that different from 1d4 + dex, also becouse both are bg damage, so even i miss the first attack i can push the enemy with crusher on the unarmored strike, and so the +2 AC become a very nice boost for lose just 2/3 damage dealt. This character anyway don't care that much to deal damage, as long as he can tank and push enemies in his hazard spells for let the monk and the smiter hit easier is eveything fine. He gonna use for long time sleet storm and maybe wall of fire as main spells using concentration, later on probably he ll get whirlwind, but he gonna anyway always care much more battlefield control than damage especially having the cleric/warlock in the party that also can push enemies with eldricht blast and halve the speed of creatures over the reduction of speed from my spells with spirit guardians.

Anyway i was realizing than the amulet of health is a rare item, the gauntlets of ogre and the helband of intellect are not common, but the amulet is rare, so i can't pick it in the beginning, but i can anyway buy it once i get 5000 gc.

[Kane0]

Many of you are talking about this MC, but maybe i didnt get how it work, becouse it seem to me to be kinda bad, you never have enough slots and ki points at the same time for smite, becouse you won't double extra attack, plus it's not that clear if you can smite with an unarmed strike or not, can someone tell me what i'm missing about this MC?


I think it largely boils down to proficiency in and +Cha to all saves at Monk 14/Paladin 6. You can also play a paladin with Dex instead of Str perfectly fine, benefitting from movement, slow fall, evasion etc plus deflect arrows is a solid use of a reaction and you can combine stuns and smites or just be an archer with kensei even. With great stat rolls you can have high dex, con, wis and cha for all your class functions and also afford feats like fey touched, piercer/crusher, alert, lucky, etc.

Edit: and you absolutely can extra attack with a weapon (adding stuns and smites) then bonus action martial arts or flurry for some unarmed attacks, or just take PAM or something for your BA attacks. Fey touched and similar helps preserve spell slots for smites but depending on your monk subclass you will have to be careful with ki expenditure.

[adb82]

I think it largely boils down to proficiency in and +Cha to all saves at Monk 14/Paladin 6. You can also play a paladin with Dex instead of Str perfectly fine, benefitting from movement, slow fall, evasion etc plus deflect arrows is a solid use of a reaction and you can combine stuns and smites or just be an archer with kensei even. With great stat rolls you can have high dex, con, wis and cha for all your class functions and also afford feats like fey touched, piercer/crusher, alert, lucky, etc.

Edit: and you absolutely can extra attack with a weapon (adding stuns and smites) then bonus action martial arts or flurry for some unarmed attacks, or just take PAM or something for your BA attacks. Fey touched and similar helps preserve spell slots for smites but depending on your monk subclass you will have to be careful with ki expenditure.

Monk 14/Paladin 6 double extra attack and that's something i don't like normally as you lose a feature in practice.
About the smites, with only 6 lv of paladin you have only 2 second lv slots and 4 fist level slots, even you not gonna use any of those slots for cast spells they are too few for last all day. I honestly dont see any great sinergy here, except to play a monk with good saves, but it can be done without 6 lv of paladin. I may be wrong, but i still would play a paladin 2/monk 9/sorcerer 9 (if i would find the right spots for multiclass) getting a race that give me advantage against magic (yuan-ti for exemple) or at least adavantage on mental stats saves, instead than a paladin 6/monk 14, it don't have all saves, but it have advantage on all magic effects and spells that require a save, thats kinda same as you normally make a save against a spell effect, but you have much more slots for smite, metamagic and a tons of spells at a cost of some ki points that you recharge anyway for short rest, so 9 are probably already ok, around 3 uses for fight, the difficult part is mixing that 3 classes without being too weak during some levels.
Uhm...probably monk 5/sorcerer 3/Pala 2 can be a good start, at least you get extra attack asap, more slots than the pala/monk would get in all his life, metamagic and some nice spells and cantrips. Than i would grow sorcerer first till 9 and at the end the monk, but it's probably good also get evasion and some ki point first.

[Kane0]

Fair points, my vote is still for Pally 2/Bladesinger X as I said before. Can be largely dex focused, cantrip Extra attack couples with smites and you have almost full spell progression including rituals, plus your bonus action is largely free to activate bladesong.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Fair points, my vote is still for Pally 2/Bladesinger X as I said before. Can be largely dex focused, cantrip Extra attack couples with smites and you have almost full spell progression including rituals, plus your bonus action is largely free to activate bladesong.

I believe the OP said earlier in the thread that this combo could be 'Broke', and depending on what other players at the table are playing and how they rolled that might be the case. Once online, this character could outshine others in many/ most areas of play.

[Kane0]

That might be best discussed with the DM and group then, evening out with other's stat rolls or finding a compromise on the average optimization level at the table. Changing around a character's build will rarely account for that IMO.

That said you can just choose to play less efficiently, like picking different spells (avoiding bladetrips in particular) or playing up a character flaw.

[adb82]

I believe the OP said earlier in the thread that this combo could be 'Broke', and depending on what other players at the table are playing and how they rolled that might be the case. Once online, this character could outshine others in many/ most areas of play.

Well, once I put str 13 and cha 13 I still have Dex 18, Con 18 and int 18, it have almost full spell and slots progression, that mean it smite better than a sorcadin, it have better spells, and once it get elven accuracy and warcaster, with familiar for advantage and/or any spell creating advantage it become maybe too strong. True also that Paladin 2/Bladesinger 3 or 4 is kinda bad, as it have few slots and the 2 LV Paladin are kinda useless as it not gonna smite probably, so I was thinking maybe better start Paladin 1/ Bladesinger 6 for extra attack and than add the second Paladin lv. Once it get even just to LV 11 is a killing machine, 5 th LV spells, 6th LV slots, many uses of bladesong and the best extra attack of the game.

The other party members are anyway kinda optimizated, the asimar warlock/cleric is one of the best healer in the game, the hexdin it's kinda solid and the monk, well, it's a monk with great stats.

[adb82]

I was thinking that probably i can even mix the 2 builds lol.
monk 1/bladesinger 7/paladin 2 is not a bad split and the same we can say for get the kensei subclass for a +2 AC instead than the 2 levels of paladin for the smites, in both case he have anyway two 9th lv spells. Probably for the character i have in mind kensei would be better than paladin, as he don't care that much to deal damage as he can double the damge output of his party, but the point is, it's a +2 AC worth the delay of spells? Thinking about Bigby's hand, contingency and simulacrum probabily not, but that +2 AC keep being tempting, as on hight levels he can easly get 20 base AC, with +5 from bladesong and +2 from the kensei he gonna get a monstre AC of 26/27 +5 if he cast shield, in practice he almost can't be hitted. I honestly don't know if that 2AC points more make a big difference, but it's helpful, however getting spells earlier is probably stronger.

[Sorinth]

Given the party composition listed I would be very tempted to go with a grapple+prone based build so that your Hexadin + Monk can wail away. There's the Bard version of the grappler which would give you the arcane casting you are looking for and you have the stats for great Str+Cha while having a good Con and decent Dex score.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Well, once I put str 13 and cha 13 I still have Dex 18, Con 18 and int 18, it have almost full spell and slots progression, that mean it smite better than a sorcadin, it have better spells, and once it get elven accuracy and warcaster, with familiar for advantage and/or any spell creating advantage it become maybe too strong. True also that Paladin 2/Bladesinger 3 or 4 is kinda bad, as it have few slots and the 2 LV Paladin are kinda useless as it not gonna smite probably, so I was thinking maybe better start Paladin 1/ Bladesinger 6 for extra attack and than add the second Paladin lv. Once it get even just to LV 11 is a killing machine, 5 th LV spells, 6th LV slots, many uses of bladesong and the best extra attack of the game.

The other party members are anyway kinda optimizated, the asimar warlock/cleric is one of the best healer in the game, the hexdin it's kinda solid and the monk, well, it's a monk with great stats.

My experience with my P2/ Swords Bard combo was that it was actually better than expected (not great, but not bad) through level 5 and 6, and I'd think your character would be the same. Even though you don't have multi-attack or level 3 spells you do have a lot of options and the ability to upcast (or smite) 3rd level slots at 6th.
That said I'm realizing you don't actually have to take Paladin levels at all until Bladesinger 6 if you don't want to. Eventually you'll want Wis and Con saves anyway, and you already get the light armor from Bladesinger. You still get all martial weapons once you multi-class into Pally. Unless I'm missing something, you have options.

[adb82]

My experience with my P2/ Swords Bard combo was that it was actually better than expected (not great, but not bad) through level 5 and 6, and I'd think your character would be the same. Even though you don't have multi-attack or level 3 spells you do have a lot of options and the ability to upcast (or smite) 3rd level slots at 6th.
That said I'm realizing you don't actually have to take Paladin levels at all until Bladesinger 6 if you don't want to. Eventually you'll want Wis and Con saves anyway, and you already get the light armor from Bladesinger. You still get all martial weapons once you multi-class into Pally. Unless I'm missing something, you have options.

You are probably right, also becouse Booming Blade keep you hight with damage, but i probably prefer to go bladesinger till lv 6 or 7 (probably 6, becouse 7 would mean 8 for the asi and 9 for the 5th lv spells), as you suggested there is no reason to take Paladin first.