What Tactics Will the Order Use?

[Enhanced_Human]

With Elan making his way out of the discussion, I think it's fairly clear that Rich is going to skip showing us the full discussion of tactics for the upcoming fight. So, that makes me wonder, what synergies/combos/strategies do you think the team will use, or what else do you think might happen in the fight?

My favorite prediction is that Sunny will use his anti-magic cone on Bloodfeast and Belkar will get that splash panel he wanted so dearly.

[KorvinStarmast]

My favorite prediction is that Sunny will use his anti-magic cone on Bloodfeast and Belkar will get that splash panel he wanted so dearly. One can only hope that Redcloak's initial reaction is something like "What is a dinosaur doing on the polar ice cap? They are cold blooded!"

[brian 333]

One can only hope that Redcloak's initial reaction is something like "What is a dinosaur doing on the polar ice cap? They are cold blooded!"

I think Redcloak would simply Summon Water Elemental, (hey, he can use the classical elements if he wants,) and eliminate Bloodfeast and Sunny from the battle at the same time. Sunny would have to go off chasing the ice monster and Bloodfeast, or else the lizard will revert to tiny size category.

I am beginning to think Bloodfeast is Chekhov's unloaded gun. It will never be fired.

[littlebum2002]

I mean I can't see Sunny having any major part in the last battle because wouldn't it be trivial for the Order to defeat Xykon and Redcloak in an anti magic field? Sure Xykon might be able to defeat Vaarsuvius with his bare phalanges but without magic both would be sitting ducks to the melee members of the party.

[Fyraltari]

Whatever they plan to do, they'll end up making it up as they go along.

[Smoutwortel]

I mean I can't see Sunny having any major part in the last battle because wouldn't it be trivial for the Order to defeat Xykon and Redcloak in an anti magic field? Sure Xykon might be able to defeat Vaarsuvius with his bare phalanges but without magic both would be sitting ducks to the melee members of the party.

Not so trivial as it seems.
A. he's a lich and thus has resistance/invulnerability to all non-magical attacks and is thus close to invulnerable in an anti-magic field.
B. he can still use long ranged attacks to target those outside the field(like sunny) or indirectly hit those inside(throwing rocks and summoning monsters)
C. Redcloack carries an epic cloak that has in the past already defeated magic surpression.
D. MiTD is still a dark case, but seems to be pretty good at melee combat(who can hit the softest game) and at least somewhat in league with team evil.
E. It doesn't keep Redcloack from wasting his 9th level sloth out of spite.

Sure a continuously generated anti-magic field is an incredible asset against a mostly magical enemy, but against this enemy it is not enough on its own.

I myself would guess their tactics will revolve around petrifying Redcloack as fast as possible(dex based, hard to cure for the rest of the team and keeps him from wasting his 9th level slot out of spite).

[The MunchKING]

Not so trivial as it seems.
A. he's a lich and thus has resistance/invulnerability to all non-magical attacks and is thus close to invulnerable in an anti-magic field.

Damage Reduction is Supernatural (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm), and thus shuts off in a AMF.



B. he can still use long ranged attacks to target those outside the field(like sunny) or indirectly hit those inside(throwing rocks and summoning monsters)

You can't summon monsters in an AMF. I mean, they can't go in an AMF either, but you can't do the summoning if you are in an AMF either.



C. Redcloack carries an epic cloak that has in the past already defeated magic surpression.

It defeated disease, it never stopped a complete absence of magic in the area.



D. MiTD is still a dark case, but seems to be pretty good at melee combat(who can hit the softest game) and at least somewhat in league with team evil.

Which is why that would be the perfect time to turn sides.


E. It doesn't keep Redcloack from wasting his 9th level sloth out of spite.

Can you waste slots if there's no magic for you to cast?

Anyway, then you just attempt Diplomacy checks on him all day. He gets those back every day (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) you know.

[ZhonLord]

If Serini has any of those potent break-a-paladin's-saves poison darts left, hitting redcloak with one would be absolutely ideal. Oona, Xykon, Greyview, MITD, none of them have any means of curing poisons or waking Redcloak up if he get cheap-shot incapacitated. That would cut an enormous number of spells out of the enemy arsenal with a single sneak attack.

On top of that, if Redcloak is poisoned and weak, it'll be easier to capture him afterwards for a new round of convincing and diplomacy to try and get him to change plans.

[Smoutwortel]

Damage Reduction is Supernatural (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm), and thus shuts off in a AMF.




You can't summon monsters in an AMF. I mean, they can't go in an AMF either, but you can't do the summoning if you are in an AMF either.



It defeated disease, it never stopped a complete absence of magic in the area.



Which is why that would be the perfect time to turn sides.



Can you waste slots if there's no magic for you to cast?

Anyway, then you just attempt Diplomacy checks on him all day. He gets those back every day (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) you know.

a. oops didn't know that.
b. summon creature1 is a ranged spell and can thus be used to summon creatures outside of AMF. the spell description of AMF states "An anti magic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it." Apparently spells can be cast just not effect inside an anti-magic field.
c. good point.
d. Agreed, but like O'chul pointed out while spying on their camp and rebellious actions its too uncertain and thus not something a tactic the Order should rely on until they have confirmation from MiTD themself.
e. see point b. and the wasted spell slot matters, because the dark one(the one who provides the spells) has expressed discontent to his power being used for the purpose the order wants to convince redcloack to use it for, so there is a significant chance the dark one will refuse to grant 9th level sloths if there is high chance they will be used for this purpose. The strip after the one you linked to actually showcases this with "The only feedback I get is that he is still statisfied enough with my work to grand spells"

[Laurentio III]

:roy: "Fine. First spell on the field?"
:vaarsuvius: "Sunburst."
:roy: "To damage all of them?"
:vaarsuvius: "To dissipate shadows. I yearn to know the identity of the creature cloaked in darkness. Uncertainty about its exact nature is a burden on my mind."
:belkar: "..."

[brian 333]

b. summon creature1 is a ranged spell and can thus be used to summon creatures outside of AMF. the spell description of AMF states "An anti magic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it." Apparently spells can be cast just not effect inside an anti-magic field.
themself.


This is an erroneous ruling. Casting a spell is itself a magical effect. A caster could go through all of the motions of spellcasting and nothing would happen. It would not consume material components or use a spell slot. There would be no effect waiting to kick in after leaving the AMF because the spell was never cast.

A spell with a duration cast prior to entering the AMF would restart once leaving the effect, such as V's Fly spell, but attempting to cast a Fly spell within an AMF would not enable the caster to fly upon exiting the field because magic must operate to enable spellcasting.

[VanFanel]

We've already seen a Celestial Tree Sloth, now I'm eager to see the 9th level sloths, but I can't wait for Epic Level Sloths. :D

[Mechalich]

Ideally the Order would attack after Team Xykon has come out of the dungeon with their spell slots seriously depleted and their buffs run out. Xykon may have too many spells to seriously deplete his stock, but Redcloak apparently draws down hard on these outings (and further reduces his overall capability by preparing Cure spells). Redcloak is also, in many ways, more dangerous than Xykon because Xykon's spell list is largely blasting based and the Order+Allies has a lot of HP to absorb blasting damage.

If Redcloak does not have Freedom of Movement active, he's actually a good grapple target (this is an ideal use for a restored Bloodfeast), especially since the Order's ultimate endgame is greatly aided by not killing Redcloak - though, as an aside, I would absolutely love it if the ultimate destruction of Xykon could be attributed to 'allosaurus gizzard.'

[Laurentio III]

Ideally the Order would attack after Team Xykon has come out of the dungeon with their spell slots seriously depleted and their buffs run out. Xykon may have too many spells to seriously deplete his stock, but Redcloak apparently draws down hard on these outings (and further reduces his overall capability by preparing Cure spells). Redcloak is also, in many ways, more dangerous than Xykon because Xykon's spell list is largely blasting based and the Order+Allies has a lot of HP to absorb blasting damage.
The first defense against Xykon is "protection from energy drain". Mr. Clankybones LOVES to energy drain opponents, and it's a sound tactics.
A good trick is to bring immediately him into melee range while indoor. Xykon doesn't care for others, but is not going to scorch the area if it means losing allies during a fight. Just remember, HE is immune from his own Meteor Strike (magic items or talent, I don't know), but others aren't.
Plus, Roy is the main damage dealer, cast controller and damage sponge. So melee is a must.


If Redcloak does not have Freedom of Movement active, he's actually a good grapple target (this is an ideal use for a restored Bloodfeast), especially since the Order's ultimate endgame is greatly aided by not killing Redcloak - though, as an aside, I would absolutely love it if the ultimate destruction of Xykon could be attributed to 'allosaurus gizzard.'
Grapping a caster is not necessarily a good idea. Casters, and much more good planners like Redcloak, can have several contingences.
Plus, a fast Word of Recall, and he is out of range. (by several miles).

My opinion: kill Redcloak. Kill him good. And then, resurrect him.
First, killing is easier that contain, expecially during a big fight. You don't have to avoid area spells, or to roll your punches. You can go for a maximized fireball with passion.
Second, Redcloak dying means he meets The Dark One. It's almost assured, as he is his actual prophet or whatever. At this point of the plot, a brief exchange of information between the two is good for everyone.
You can even tell him beforehand. "Redcloak, we are going to resurrect you after this! Speak to your god!". You can even Send him while dead (with a marginal 5% of failure, but you just spam Sending).

[SlashDash]

The plan is actually easy and the order can win in almost a single round - Which obviously means there's no way in heck this would happen.

Truth is the order already had a pretty decent plan the first time around having Roy fight Xykon with an enchanted sword. But Xykon shattered it. That's not going to work a second time now that Roy prevents spells from being cast.

Second time around they had the same idea, only Xykon ran off by flying away out of Roy's reach.
So all they have to do is just attack him in some part of the tunnels that Xykon can't get out of. We know they block teleportation and ghost form.

So all they have to do is have Roy hide somehow (either a spell or behind Mimi) and jump instantly to be at melee range with Xykon. The guy would pretty much be toast unless he has some major buffs on.

Even then, V and Durkon can provide cover and whatever aid Serini gives them.

Getting Redcloak out is another story since Roy has to focus on Xykon. But as others said above, Serini's darts should do the trick. Or, just have the rest of the party gang up on him. Again, it's assumed they have the element of surprise.

The monster obviously will switch sides if Xykon can't do anything and O-Chul is there.

Oona is the only wild card here.

But of course, not going to happen.
My guess is that Redcloak's new friends are going to pretty much give him final assurance that the gate isn't behind any of the doors, making it unlikely that they are going into any more tunnels at all.


Whatever they plan to do, they'll end up making it up as they go along.
Not always true. Their plan at the pyramid to stop Nale worked exactly as planned.

[Peelee]

Truth is the order already had a pretty decent plan the first time around having Roy fight Xykon with an enchanted sword.

How was a mid-level fighter attacking an epic-level lich with a weapon that would not bypass the lich's damage reduction a "pretty decent" plan?

[ZhonLord]

My opinion: kill Redcloak. Kill him good. And then, resurrect him.
First, killing is easier that contain, expecially during a big fight. You don't have to avoid area spells, or to roll your punches. You can go for a maximized fireball with passion.
Second, Redcloak dying means he meets The Dark One. It's almost assured, as he is his actual prophet or whatever. At this point of the plot, a brief exchange of information between the two is good for everyone.
You can even tell him beforehand. "Redcloak, we are going to resurrect you after this! Speak to your god!". You can even Send him while dead (with a marginal 5% of failure, but you just spam Sending).

Except for two major problems.

1. If redcloak dies, the Dark One, explicitly being an evil god, may very well consider Redcloak no longer useful even if they do end up chatting. And Redcloak is unlikely to relay any information to the dark one that he considers to be a lie or deception, even info given to him via afterlife sendings.

2. The recipient of a resurrection must be willing in order to be brought back to life. So, if Redcloak is firmly in "Right all along" and the bridge has been eaten by dolphins, he certainly won't let himself be revived as their captive. Better dead than put in a situation where he has to betray what he and the dark one worked so hard to achieve.


No, if they want to properly seal this rift, they need to capture Redcloak without killing him.

[hroþila]

1. If redcloak dies, the Dark One, explicitly being an evil god, may very well consider Redcloak no longer useful even if they do end up chatting. And Redcloak is unlikely to relay any information to the dark one that he considers to be a lie or deception, even info given to him via afterlife sendings.
Why? Being Evil shouldn't be an obstacle for the Dark One to realize that Redcloak is his biggest asset, as his highest-level cleric (probably by far). If Redcloak can be raised on the spot, I don't see why the Dark One would forsake him. You can be Evil without feeling the urge to sabotage yourself by going all "my minions are expendable, yes even the most powerful ones who would still gladly serve me if I just let them".

[Rinazina]

I am convinced that Rich will surprise us as he always has, but in this conflict I would like to see:

Haley+belklar+serines do the most deceptive stunt ever, possibly against Oona or Redclock
The two super buffed paladins spam "smite evil" against xykon, protected by Roy using the spellsplinter manoeuvre. they deserve a lot of revenge from https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
Let's not forget that xykon has acquired boots of freedom of movement that it didn't have before. Let's hope they don't want to contain him before focusing their attacks?
Quinton might make them lose the surprise effect, but the surprise effect would not be just one.
Bloodfeast could be reinvigorated by buffs before being restored to its natural size.
Crimson mantle may be protecting against poisons, making the soporific potion perhaps useless against these enemies?
Haley has a bouquet of wands full of undisclosed effects that could prove useful


edit: i packed two posts together


Why? Being Evil shouldn't be an obstacle for the Dark One to realize that Redcloak is his biggest asset, as his highest-level cleric (probably by far). If Redcloak can be raised on the spot, I don't see why the Dark One would forsake him. You can be Evil without feeling the urge to sabotage yourself by going all "my minions are expendable, yes even the most powerful ones who would still gladly serve me if I just let them".

My weird theory is that the greatest sacrifice Durkon can commit, is to become the high priest of the Dark One, once redclock is defeated.

After all, he seemed very shaken by https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1231.html.

Of course, this theory has many holes: may not evil wear the Crimson Mantle? would it be appropriate for durkon to act as a guarantor and messenger for the darkone (here the question is about "who else can?") and does it mean that redclock will be defeated before cooperating and finding a compromise that saves goblinoids? (which would be a pity, but)

[The MunchKING]

How was a mid-level fighter attacking an epic-level lich with a weapon that would not bypass the lich's damage reduction a "pretty decent" plan?

Well they had a spell that was, in the narrative, framed as being a one-shot kill on Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html).

I mean NOW we know Xykon is Epic, so unless Durkon gets a LOT of XP in the next 5 minutes, Xykon has more HD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm), but still... An instant kill-spell seems like good-enough plan to me.

[Peelee]

Well they had a spell that was, in the narrative, framed as being a one-shot kill on Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html).

Not in the narrative. In the character's heads. They didn't know enough about Xykon and the plan would have failed regardless. Just as how they didn't destroy Xykon because they didn't know about phylacteries.

A character not knowing enough about an enemy and forming a plan that will not work is not what I would call a good plan. Or even a good-enough plan.

[hroþila]

I think saying that the narrative did frame it as something that would work is a fair interpretation in light of #112 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html). Sure, that's not incompatible with the Order simply being wrong, because that goblin was just a kid who didn't know any better reporting exactly what the Order had said, and Xykon and Redcloak not contradicting him doesn't really tell us much one way or the other, so this isn't a retcon. But when the narrative presents something seemingly important that goes completely unchallenged, it does make sense to take it at face value unless there's contradictory information available (like we have now).

[Peelee]

I think saying that the narrative did frame it as something that would work is a fair interpretation in light of #112 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html). Sure, that's not incompatible with the Order simply being wrong, because that goblin was just a kid who didn't know any better reporting exactly what the Order had said, and Xykon and Redcloak not contradicting him doesn't really tell us much one way or the other, so this isn't a retcon. But when the narrative presents something seemingly important that goes completely unchallenged, it does make sense to take it at face value unless there's contradictory information available (like we have now).

Fair point. However, it is trivial - not simply feasible, but trivial - for Xykon to immediately destroy the sword. When a plan has such a major hole in it, I would still hesitate to call it a good plan.

[Laurentio III]

Bloodfeast could be reinvigorated by buffs before being restored to its natural size.
So you assume an outdoor battle? Not the best field for Roy, as Xykon likes to be airborn, and Roy has... mixed experience with flight.