Has anyone tried dex based paladin rogue multiclass? [Archive]

RogueJK

2022-06-15, 05:06 PM

The thing with a DEX-based Paladin/Rogue is that you're pretty MAD. You need a 13 STR for multiclassing out of Paladin, plus a high DEX, high CHA, and decent CON. That can be tough to pull off with Point Buy or the Standard Array. You'd end up with something like this:
STR 13
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 12+2

And then you'd need to boost both DEX and CHA with your ASIs.

But if you can pull it off stat-wise, a DEX-based Vengeance or Watchers Paladin 6/Arcane Trickster Rogue X, stacking Sneak Attack with Divine Smite, could be a potent damage dealer. You'll just have to stick to utility/defensive/buff spells for your AT spells due to your low INT, like Shield, Silvery Barbs, Disguise Self, Shadow Blade, and Invisibility.

Or if you're willing to give up a little Divine Smite damage from upper level spell slots in favor of being a bit more SAD, a CHA-based Hexblade 1/Watchers Paladin 6 or 9/Swashbuckler Rogue X can also be quite handy. That's a little more doable using something like this:
STR 12+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+1

And then just boost CHA with your ASIs.

MrStabby

2022-06-15, 05:46 PM

I gather these two classes are great independently; I’m wondering how to put them together. Is it just silly or is stacking smite with SA some good Schtuff? What subclasses make sense? Any ideas out there? Thanks in advance

I mused on this one myself for a while but didn't really come out in favour.

Firstly the stats are rough. Needing 13 strength to multiclass isn't that hard but unless you have awesome stats you will be losing out on constitution or wisdom saves to get that 13. It isn't a crippling cost but nor is it something that can easily be discounted.

Rogue sneak attack is good, but it feels like it doesn't add too much to the paladin that can already do some awesome damage with smites. More and bigger smites offsets much of the benefit of trading paladin levels for rogue levels. Sure, you can use SA all day but basically this is for those fights that are easy enough that you wouldn't want to burn resources for them anyway. Kind of a "win more" type effect.

Cunning action is a really cool ability and in the right circumstances could be really cool on a paladin... but a lot of the time the Paladin can get the mobility from summon steed and the paladin levels means you get a lot less of a benefit from advantage/hiding etc..

Uncanny dodge on the other hand is great for that character that wants to go toe to toe in melee with the biggest, baddest enemy around. A lot of paladin reactions typically come from things like Pole Arm Mastery, which is unlikely if going for a dexerity build, so you should have more free reactions. With fewer rogue levels as well those reaction sneak attacks are less crucial. With halving damage, a decent charisma and a not terrible constitution this could see concentration checks being pretty reliable. The downside is you probably want at least 6 paladin levels and this is an extra 5 for rogue so you are looking pretty late on in the game for this.

The rogue subclasses make an interesting addition. Swashbuckler is the obvious with the charisma you will have as a paladin, but is it really great? Fancy footwork looks good on a rogue - less good on the kind of very tanky character this is likely to be. Rakish Audacity is a mixed bag. Intitiative rolls are maybe a bit less important - you will be doing OK anyway but a great initiaive roll on a pladin is often counterproductive (running off leaving allies outside of your save aura, closing the gap with enemies before they move forwards an giving them the first attacks etc.). On the other hand the dueling feel for being good at solo combat feels ideal - unless you already have access to Tasha's ACFs, in which case its meh. Panache is something that you probably wouldn't get till 15th level but would be awesome - given your ability to be really, really tanky this is a good ability but arguably far too late.

Arcane trickster is the other subclass I might consider to add to paladin. MOre spell slots to power you paladin spells, more spells known and from a different list (though a lot won't be that useful due to likely having modest intelligence). Mage hand actually adds something to the character, though it is a sufficiently common spell that it is moderaly likely to be covered by the party anyway, but yours is better. The dex paladin probably has sword and shield equipped so a free hand for spellcasting won't always be available (guessing the divine focus on the shield won't fly for arcane trickster spells but ask your DM). That said, the sword and shield isn't going to pack uses for a bonus action every turn so having a better cunning action is neat. I thought magical ambush would be awesome at first (even at this high level) - imagine wrathful smite but with disadvantage on the save! But no, the smite spells target you not an enemy and the number of good Paladin spells that target an enemy are a bit more limited than I thought - though possibly some judicious choice of subclass would help.

So mechanically, I think its... OK but not really worth it and there are other better options. Thematically there are a lot of cool things you could do that would make for a neat character.

Gale

2022-06-15, 06:06 PM

I have theorized a build for this before, although it admittedly borrows heavily from LudicSavant's "Swift Death to Evil" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938) build. It also assumes your DM lets you multiclass into Rogue despite having an 8 STR score. According to RAW this isn't allowed, but I think it's a reasonable exception for a DM to make.

Build

Race: Elf, Mark of Shadow

Starting Ability Scores (Point-Buy): STR 8, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16

Class Levels: Oath of the Watchers Paladin 7, Assassin Rogue 3

Fighting Style: Blind-Fighting

Feats: Elven Accuracy (+1 DEX)

Weapons: Dual-wielded Shortswords (Or a rapier and shield if your prefer.)

Strategy

The strategy is pretty straightforward. Thanks to our high dexterity, and Aura of the Sentinel, we'll likely go first in initiative; and because Assassinate gives us advantage to hit anyone who hasn't take a turn yet in combat, we can combo it with Elven Accuracy and go crit-fishing.

Next round we can cast Darkness, and use Blind-Fighting to generate continuous advantage. Simultaneously, we can use Cunning Action to hide as a bonus action, which will completely conceal our location from enemies. (Remember, being unseen doesn't mean enemies don't know where you are. You need to hide in order to gain that benefit.)

Speaking of hiding, we're also fantastic at sneaking around, so it should be very easy to surprise enemies if we wish. A Mark of Shadow elf has access to Pass Without Trace and gets to add a 1d4 to Stealth checks as often as they please. They can also cast Invisibility once per day. Combine all of this with Expertise in Stealth and it should near impossible for anyone to see us coming.

We're basically the ultimate assassin. We can sneak up on someone, attack them thrice and be basically guaranteed to hit every time thanks to Elven Accuracy, then each hit is automatically a critical hit and we can use Divine Smite and Sneak Attack to deliver massive damage. Next round, before they even have a chance to retaliate we can cast Darkness and hide again using Cunning Action. With our high Stealth, we should easily beat their passive perception, meaning they won't be able to see us at all unless they explicitly take the Search action, which would be a waste of their turn. On our next turn we can make two more attacks before hiding again. Rinse and repeat until the enemy is dead.

---

Admittedly, I haven't thought about what to do with this build beyond level 10. A couple more levels of Rogue seem tempting for the additional ASI and Uncanny Dodge. But I likely wouldn't take any more levels beyond that and instead stick to progressing Paladin in order to get 3rd-level spells and more spell slots for smiting.

Snowbluff

2022-06-15, 11:48 PM

I did it in AL up to level 20 as a Kobold of all things. I did Vengeance for Haste and AT because AT gets slots. I ended up using haste rather little.

Aura of Protection, Sword and Board, Evasion all helped me survive quite nicely. My Cha wasn't the greatest until I got some levels under my belt. The extra speed from cunning action really helped with getting around on the battlefield. Also, due to how crits work and having Pack Tactics, I ended up with some very bursty damage.

If I were to do it again, I'd probably pick something other than kobold if I were being optimized*, but in general, it worked fine. Extra Attack + Sneak Attack is simply robust, and worst comes to worse the ability to use a bow with a meaningful damage bonus is something paladins normally lack.

I am doing it again because people loved the character, Marianne the Kobold, and her ridiculous accent so much that I am playing her in a new home game. Also, I did take the blindfighting style.

Skrum

2022-06-16, 07:16 AM

I'm gonna be the voice in the other direction on this one: rogue is not a good class. Paladin is a very good class. They don't synergize well, stat-wise. I think this one is a stinker.

Any argument for rogue extends as far as level 3 *at most.* 4 skills, 2 expertise, cunning action, and maybe a very specific subclass ability like mastermind's for a battlefield commander type. Sneak attack is inconsequential. It flatly does not do enough. It doesn't do enough on a single class rogue, much less on a multiclass. You're much better off pairing paladin with a full caster class for the extra spell slots.

Are those few utility features worth spreading your stats that thin? I mean I say no.

If you want to do a Dex paladin, just make a Dex paladin. You can dump STR, get stealth from your background, and make em an orc or goblin for the cunning action-lite, or even bugbear if the few extra d6's mean that much to yah. Grab skill expert, call it a day. Having more levels in a much stronger class is going to serve you better overall.

RogueJK

2022-06-16, 08:40 AM

Sneak attack is inconsequential. It flatly does not do enough. It doesn't do enough on a single class rogue, much less on a multiclass.

While I agree that a Paladin/Rogue multiclass is a tough sell, I think you're the only person I've ever seen who's argued that Sneak Attack is "inconsequential/not enough", especially on a single-classed Rogue...

At Level 5, Sneak Attack is equivalent to the bonus damage of GWM/SS on one attack. By Level 11, it's equivalent to the bonus damage from GWM/SS on two attacks.

A Rogue with a Rapier and Sneak Attack is roughly equivalent in damage to a Warlock with Agonizing Eldritch Blast or a Fighter with a 2H weapon, which are kind of the standard baselines of good non-optimized damage output. (And you don't see folks griping about Eldritch Blast being "inconsequential/not enough".)

As a result, a Rogue's damage can outpace a non-optimized martial, and keep up with an semi-optimized martial. (And an optimized Rogue can exceed it if pairing Sneak Attack with another source of bonus damage from something like Sharpshooter plus a second attack from something like XBE or a 5 level dip.)

Skrum

2022-06-16, 09:07 AM

I think you're the only person I've ever seen who's argued that Sneak Attack is "inconsequential/not enough"...

At Level 5, Sneak Attack is equivalent to the bonus damage of GWM/SS on one attack. By Level 11, it's equivalent to the bonus damage from GWM/SS on two attacks.

A Rogue with a Rapier and Sneak Attack is roughly equivalent in damage to Agonizing Eldritch Blast, which is kind of the baseline of good non-optimized damage output. (And you don't see folks griping about Eldritch Blast being "inconsequential/not enough".)

As a result, a Rogue's damage outpaces a non-optimized martial, and keeps up with an semi-optimized martial. (And an optimized Rogue can exceed it if pairing Sneak Attack with Sharpshooter and a second attack from XBE or a 5 level dip.)

Except eb is a less resisted damage type and typically comes with leveled spells. Sneak attack IS what rogues do, while eb is what warlocks do when it's not worth dropping a leveled spell. Plan A vs Plan B.

Eb also scales on its own. Warlock 1 anything else 19, and your eb is still 4d10. Sneak attack only gets better with rogue levels, and like all martial classes, rogue gets very very little after 5th level. That's a steep price to pay for something can only be used once per turn. IMO, rogues are competitive at level 4 or less. Once the other martials get extra attack, rogues fall behind and never catch up again.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 09:17 AM

Right idea. Wrong execution.

For this build, Dex is going to cap out at 14 at lvl.1 because we're going to focus in on Str and wear Mesium Armour.

Why? Because Str 13 is wasted on a Dex build and you don't need higher than Dex 14 to get just about everything you want out of it. Add to that the fact that StRogues is very much an option and will likely synergise better with Paladin anyway and we're golden.

So here's where I'd go with it;

Race Half-Elf
Ability Scores
Str 15+1, Dex 13+1, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14+2

Lvl.1 Rogue. This gives us Dex and Int Saving Throw proficiencies, shoring up any deficiency there (remember we'll be adding Cha mod across the board later). It also gives us an additional Skill Proficiency and a better list to choose from. In addition, if it matters, it gives us a shady background to be redeemed from. More importantly we get Expertise in Athletics and (for the sake of argument, let's be a thug) Intimidation, plus Sneak Attack.

Lvl.2 Rogue Cunning Action. It's just too good.

Lvl.3 Paladin We pick up Medium Armour proficiency and Martial Weapon proficiency too. We ditch the Leather armour for Half-plate and we pick up a Whip (because we really don't care about weapon damage dice and we do care about Reach) and a Shield.

Lvl.4-10 Rogue 5/Paladin 5 After this it doesn't make a lot of odds what order you take levels in, but the salient points are grabbing Extra Attack, Uncanny Dodge amd everything in between. I would probably go Arcane Trickster and Vengeance for sub-classes and use ASI's for Sentinel (because off-turn Sneak Attacks are fun and it procs well with Reach) and I'd take Mobile, but +2 Str or Cha or something like Elven Accuracy would also be acceptable. (AT) Spells would focus on those that don't require Int; mostly buffs to improve our defenses, mobility and/or offensive capability (e.g. Enlarge/Reduce as on off-list pick, plus the standard AT picks).

After level 10, personally, I'd focus in on Rogue because I like Rogue, but you can finish out however you like, focusing on Str and Cha for ASI's. I'd recommed getting both classes to lvl.7 for their respective features, but that mid-late game becomes very subjective, depending on the campaign.

Regardless, at this point you have better Grappling than just about anyone except a Barb/Rog, you've got a Reaction for any circumstance (you're attacked? Shield or Uncanny Dodge. Someone attacks a friend? You get an attack. Someone moves? You get an attack or pursuit. etc.). You have good Saves across the board, utility options, solid consistent damage, area control/denial and excellent spike damage (without sacrificing your chances to hit), mobility out the wazoo and better than most in social encounters. The only area we fall down in is in AoE, but that's what teammates are for, right?

Skrum

2022-06-16, 09:28 AM

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 09:35 AM

What are you going to use as a weapon? This is another reason I'm low on rogues; they are sneakily (haha) the least synergistic class in the game. Sneak attack only gets better from rogue levels, and can't be used with any weapons most classes are interested in using.

A finesse weapon on a paladin? You're giving up an awful lot of damage dice (and giving up on the best melee feats) for an ability that only works on 1 of your 2 attacks. Ranged weapon? Now you're locked into using your Dex to attack, and also can't smite.

Rogues add something to just about every Class except full casters looking to maintain their spellcasting and even then going Arcane Trickster can mitigate some of that drawback. Finesse weapons can be used for Sneak Atrack using Strength to attack just fine and with all the bonus damage available, weapon damage dice really doesn't matter (what's a d4 vs. a d8 when you're rolling an additional 3d6 Sneak Attack plus a couple of d8 from Smite?). On top of that, Cunning Action gives you a resource free use of Bonus Actions to enhance your mobility and put you where you need to be when you need to be there.

From lvl.6 upwards, Rogue offers huge benefits; Expertise, Evasion, additional ASI and Reliable Talent tip the iceberg, but certainly don't sniff at simply improving your Sneak Attack damage; if you can get off-turn SA your damage will exceed anyone not taking a penalty or using a resource to do so.

RogueJK

2022-06-16, 09:38 AM

A finesse weapon on a paladin? You're giving up an awful lot of damage dice (and giving up on the best melee feats) for an ability that only works on 1 of your 2 attacks.

A Rapier has the same d8 damage dice as a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe, and like those other weapons can be paired with Dueling fighting style.

So a Finesse weapon Paladin has the same melee damage potential as any other Sword-And-Board Paladin.

Right idea. Wrong execution.

For this build, Dex is going to cap out at 14 at lvl.1 because we're going to focus in on Str and wear Mesium Armour.

Why? Because Str 13 is wasted on a Dex build and you don't need higher than Dex 14 to get just about everything you want out of it. Add to that the fact that StRogues is very much an option and will likely synergise better with Paladin anyway and we're golden.

So here's where I'd go with it;

Race Half-Elf
Ability Scores
Str 15+1, Dex 13+1, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14+2

(Note: That's 29 points. You'd need to drop WIS to 10...)

Other than that, I concur that this is likely the better path instead of just wasting the 13 STR. However, that 12 CON is going to hurt for the first several levels, both in terms of HP as well as Concentration.

Therefore, I'd likely start with 14 CON and 12+2 CHA instead, going +2 CHA at the first ASI and +2 STR at the next one.

You could do similar with your initial stat spread, going +2 CON first then +2 STR, but starting with a slightly higher CON and slightly lower CHA like I'm suggesting will likely put you in a better position in Tier 1 and you'll end up at the same stat spread eventually. There are plenty of non-CHA-dependent Paladin spells to get you by for the first few levels (like Bless), and you'll be using most of your spell slots for Smites anyway.

Skrum

2022-06-16, 09:51 AM

Rogues add something to just about every Class except full casters looking to maintain their spellcasting and even then going Arcane Trickster can mitigate some of that drawback. Finesse weapons can be used for Sneak Atrack using Strength to attack just fine and with all the bonus damage available, weapon damage dice really doesn't matter (what's a d4 vs. a d8 when you're rolling an additional 3d6 Sneak Attack plus a couple of d8 from Smite?). On top of that, Cunning Action gives you a resource free use of Bonus Actions to enhance your mobility and put you where you need to be when you need to be there.

From lvl.6 upwards, Rogue offers huge benefits; Expertise, Evasion, additional ASI and Reliable Talent tip the iceberg, but certainly don't sniff at simply improving your Sneak Attack damage; if you can get off-turn SA your damage will exceed anyone not taking a penalty or using a resource to do so.

SA does not make up for a greatsword GWM damage, not when the character also has extra attack. It does not make up for a halberd PAM damage either.

The so-resourceless damage is mostly myth. For starters, hit points are a resource. Rogues don't have a lot of them, or defense. So yah, sneak attack all day... Unless you're just dead.

Next, unless the DM contrives to have it matter, the resource just won't come up. SA is competitive, if you squint a little, with other classes. But that means it's certainly not good enough to carry the party if everyone else is spent. This is a team game. If 3/4 group members are utterly spent, the rogue still being able to SA means nothing. The party is going to rest, or it's going to TPK.

Sorry, I just don't see it. I'd rather have 10 levels of monk than rogue.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 09:54 AM

A Rapier has the same d8 damage dice as a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe, and like those other weapons can be paired with Dueling fighting style.

So a Finesse Paladin has the same melee damage potential as any other Sword-And-Board Paladin.

(Note: That's 29 points. You'll need to drop WIS to 10...)

I concur that this is likely the better path. However, that 12 CON is going to hurt for the first several levels, both in terms of HP as well as Concentration.

Therefore, I'd likely do 14 CON and 12+2 CHA instead, going +2 CHA at the first ASI and +2 STR at the next one (or vice versa).

You could do similar with your stat spread, going +2 CON first then +2 STR, but starting with a slightly higher CON and slightly lower CHA like I'm suggesting puts you in a better position in Tier 1 while you'll end up at the same stat spread eventually.

I just noticed the Ability Score discrepancy myself! Yeah, I'd drop the Wis to 10 and rely on Cha shoring up concentration at a later point when you're more likely to need it; aftee all, you're probably burning spell slots on Smite in those low-mid levels than any given spell and from Lvl.3 onwards your AC is in the top tier of teens if not 20+ plus you have the mobility to avoid unecessary attacks, so concentration isn't a huge concern (especially if, in those mid-levels you're casting the AT staples of Shield, Mirror Image or Blur, all of which avoid attacks rather than reducing damage.

Once you have Uncanny Dodge, higher Con for the HP becomes much less important. Whichever way you look at it, a single classed Rogue has more effective HP than anyone with d10 HD unless they take multiple extremely low damage hits per turn (seriously, run the numbers; a lvl.5+ Rogue is a beast when it comes to tanking damage).

x3n0n

2022-06-16, 09:54 AM

What are you going to use as a weapon? This is another reason I'm low on rogues; they are sneakily (haha) the least synergistic class in the game. Sneak attack only gets better from rogue levels, and can't be used with any weapons most classes are interested in using.

A finesse weapon on a paladin? You're giving up an awful lot of damage dice (and giving up on the best melee feats) for an ability that only works on 1 of your 2 attacks. Ranged weapon? Now you're locked into using your Dex to attack, and also can't smite.

Not that I disagree that much with your points overall, but the fact that so much of both Rogue and Paladin damage potential are wrapped up in riders (like Sneak Attack, Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite) makes the damage die of the weapon less consequential. They are both classes that I'd happily play using a whip as my primary weapon. (Say, Paladin, Dueling, whip&shield, bonus points if you're a Bugbear for Long Limbed.)

That said, the multiclassing is definitely painful. Delaying Paladin features is never fun; trading Improved Divine Smite for 2d6 Sneak Attack seems like a bad deal.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 10:03 AM

SA does not make up for a greatsword GWM damage, not when the character also has extra attack. It does not make up for a halberd PAM damage either.

The so-resourceless damage is mostly myth. For starters, hit points are a resource. Rogues don't have a lot of them, or defense. So yah, sneak attack all day... Unless you're just dead.

Next, unless the DM contrives to have it matter, the resource just won't come up. SA is competitive, if you squint a little, with other classes. But that means it's certainly not good enough to carry the party if everyone else is spent. This is a team game. If 3/4 group members are utterly spent, the rogue still being able to SA means nothing. The party is going to rest, or it's going to TPK.

Sorry, I just don't see it. I'd rather have 10 levels of monk than rogue.

Maybe my experience differs from yours but in actual play I've seen Rogues deal more consistent spike damage from Sneak Attack than any additional damage from GWM (which reminds me of the 3.5 Monk/TWF "Flurry of Misses" syndrome). I've also seen a Rogue carry a party that's either saving resources or flat out of them until a rest can be achieved. Adding Rogue to Paladin combines the best of both worlds; utility and resource efficiency from Rogue added to combat efficacy from Paladin; it's a solid multiclass if built right.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 10:04 AM

Not that I disagree that much with your points overall, but the fact that so much of both Rogue and Paladin damage potential are wrapped up in riders (like Sneak Attack, Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite) makes the damage die of the weapon less consequential. They are both classes that I'd happily play using a whip as my primary weapon. (Say, Paladin, Dueling, whip&shield, bonus points if you're a Bugbear for Long Limbed.)

That said, the multiclassing is definitely painful. Delaying Paladin features is never fun; trading Improved Divine Smite for 2d6 Sneak Attack seems like a bad deal.

1d8 seems better than 2d6 to you? Let alone anything elsr acquired in exchange. It's a strange world we live in :smallwink:

RogueJK

2022-06-16, 10:19 AM

1d8 seems better than 2d6 to you?

To be fair, it's +1d8 to each attack (2x per turn with Extra Attack). So 2d8 vs. 2d6.

That's just 2 points of damage, which isn't that impactful at Level 11+, but technically better.

The flip side is that Improved Divine Smite is only +1d8 to an Opportunity Attack or other off-turn melee attack, whereas you can potentially apply your full Sneak Attack to an off-turn attack. So Sneak Attack could come out on top there.

Plus Sneak Attack keeps scaling, whereas IDS is always +1d8 no matter how many additional Paladin levels you take. So starting in two more levels at Rogue 5, Sneak Attack's +3d6 (or more) starts to outstrip IDS's +2d8.

MrStabby

2022-06-16, 10:36 AM

SA does not make up for a greatsword GWM damage, not when the character also has extra attack. It does not make up for a halberd PAM damage either.

The so-resourceless damage is mostly myth. For starters, hit points are a resource. Rogues don't have a lot of them, or defense. So yah, sneak attack all day... Unless you're just dead.

Next, unless the DM contrives to have it matter, the resource just won't come up. SA is competitive, if you squint a little, with other classes. But that means it's certainly not good enough to carry the party if everyone else is spent. This is a team game. If 3/4 group members are utterly spent, the rogue still being able to SA means nothing. The party is going to rest, or it's going to TPK.

Sorry, I just don't see it. I'd rather have 10 levels of monk than rogue.

Yeah, I agree.

There are cases like the rogue and he monk that give what look like a lot of cool abilities but really just seem to make up for the fact that they can't quite so effectively use the full range of big martial weapons and heavy armours.

I find that more attacks also tends to scale better than sneak attack if you are playing with magic weapons, and this goes even further if you have feats that grant bonus action attacks.

And also totally agree with the party resting. I have played with someone who gradually became more and more dissillusioned and eventually left a game because of this. They thought their character would shine when everyone else was out of resources. Instead the party just rested (I guess they got to be top dog whilst the party slept).

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 10:37 AM

To be fair, it's +1d8 to each attack (2x per turn with Extra Attack). So 2d8 vs. 2d6.

That's just 2 points of damage, which isn't that impactful at Level 11+, but technically better.

The flip side is that Improved Divine Smite is only +1d8 to an Opportunity Attack or other off-turn melee attack, whereas you can potentially apply your full +2d6 Sneak Attack to an off-turn attack. So Sneak Attack could come out on top there.

Plus Sneak Attack keeps scaling, whereas IDS is always +1d8 no matter how many additional Paladin levels you take.

If, at lvl.11+, you're not getting Sneak Attack on each of your own turns, if not extra off-turn attacks, then you're doing something wrong. A Rogue with (at level 11) 6d6 Sneak Attack is ideally adding 12d6 (42) damage per round. A Paladin under the same circumstance is getting 4d8 (18) from IDS. Yes, the Paladin can add extra by spending spell slots, but that's a limited resource. Even without an off-turn SA the Rogue does more bonus damage (ignoring other factors). The difference is stark when you look at it.

stoutstien

2022-06-16, 10:38 AM

Snowbluff

2022-06-16, 11:50 AM

Rogues are soft since when? Even if they hang out in melee they have about the same staying power as a fighter or barbarian. Pound per pound they can actual best a fighter in the later tiers thanks to just having better defensive features.

Indeed having played the build, I was wanting for neither damage nor defenses. Shield, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge are all Pretty good options available to the rogue. Paladin provides shield prof, and as a dexadin, you aren't using a 2h weapon anyway.

Willie the Duck

2022-06-16, 12:17 PM

Indeed having played the build, I was wanting for neither damage nor defenses. Shield, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge are all Pretty good options available to the rogue. Paladin provides shield prof, and as a dexadin, you aren't using a 2h weapon anyway.

Fundamentally, that is going to be it. Yes, big-smacky paladins and fighters and hexblades are obvious optimal damage-dealing builds, but then that's what you are doing (in a way just as limited as rogues and monks abilities only applying to their situations). The Paladin-Rogue is not competing with the PAM/GWM paladin, they are competing with the shield/longsword and shield/rapier paladins (which are perfectly common, as there are plenty of other things upon which a paladin wants to spend ASIs). Since the MC Paladin-Rogue is extra MAD, you are pitting the things a rogue brings to the table (those expertise, cunning action, their archetype ability, etc.) against the Inspiring Leader or War Caster or Fey Touched (or rapidly maxing stats) that a single-classed sword&board paladin is doing.

Fundamentally, I think the MADness is enough that I would not suggest them for a PB game. Delayed ASIs and a 14 in Str/Dex or Cha (or 12 Con) is a bitter pill. That said, in rolled stats, it is really not hard to get a workable result with just a slightly above average roll. Roll 8, 10, 13, 13, 14, 15* (28 points if back-converted) and throw half-elf on top, and you have a very workable 13/16/14/8/10/16 rogue-dexadin. Make it 8, 10, 13, 14, 14, 15 and you have a 16/14/14/8/10/16 strogue-paladin. We don't spend a lot of time talking about rolled-stat builds on boards like these (since they are inconsistent), but lots of people do play rolled stats, so it is useful to know what to do with a slightly-high-but-spread-out outcome like this.
*and that 8 and 10 can go lower, I just left them as is from other builds on-thread.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 12:18 PM

Indeed having played the build, I was wanting for neither damage nor defenses. Shield, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge are all Pretty good options available to the rogue. Paladin provides shield prof, and as a dexadin, you aren't using a 2h weapon anyway.

Add to that Defence Fighting style for +1 AC, as opposed to the paltry +2 damage from Dueling and a Paladin/Rogue multiclass becomes nigh on untouchable with solid, reliable damage output (compared to many other builds I've seen in actual play, even those pulled from TO boards). I've played the build I posted above myself (only to level 6, admittedly; Rogue 4/Paladin 2 before the game concluded) and found it incredibly engaging in all spheres of play. I have considered a similar build using Protection or Interception as an alternative to Defence, but I differ somewhat on whether it's worth the Reaction compared to an additional off-turn Sneak Attack.

Corran

2022-06-16, 12:26 PM

... and use ASI's for Sentinel (because off-turn Sneak Attacks are fun and it procs well with Reach)
Not sure if you've got something else in mind, but the reaction attack from sentinel works only for enemies within 5' of you, making reach not idea. Reach can also be bad somtimes with OA's, as it's possible for it to deny you sneak attack with your OA (especially if you have picked up sentinel with the aim of fighting next to an ally).

Skrum

2022-06-16, 12:37 PM

I mean, I don't want to oversell my negativity. 5e is unbalanced compared to, idk, Super Smash Bros, but relatively balanced compared to 3rd edition. Plenty of builds fall short of "optimization" but are still functional, and more importantly, fun to play.

If someone wants to cram rogue and paladin together, by all means. But if you're asking to optimize rogue and paladin, I'd probably point you towards a build that does a lot of the same things but doesn't actually have rogue levels.

Just for example, since the post above me liked their rogue 4 paladin 2 build. Not trying to nay say, if it's fun, it's fun. But I don't really see what that build has over a goblin paladin 6 with skill expert and a choice background. Bonus action disengage and hide, far more spell slots, extra attack, Cha to saves, a paladin subclass (meaning channel divinity)....all that in exchange for bonus action movement, an extra expertise, and sneak attack +2d6. To each their own. But the straight paladin seems pretty unambiguously better.

Hootman

2022-06-16, 12:56 PM

Has anyone tried dex based paladin rogue multiclass?

Absolutely! That was my first 5e character, actually. Went all the way from level 1 to 14 before the game finally ran out of steam.

Variant Human
Swashbuckler Rogue / Vengeance Paladin
STR 13
DEX 15+1
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14+1

Starting Feat: Crossbow Expert (Rapier + Hand Crossbow + House rule confirming that this way of fighting was totally fine, and whether or not I could realistically reload wasn't worth worrying about.)

1. Rogue
2-3. Paladin (Mariner Fighting Style, Smite)
4+. Whatever felt right.
X. Paladin 4 ASI (Medium Armor Master, including +1 Dex)
Y. Rogue 4 ASI (+1 Dex, +1 Cha)
Z. Rogue 8 ASI (Toughness)

While I started with Rogue for the story and skills, I believe I went to Paladin 6 asap, and then started taking more levels in Rogue, eventually getting up to Rogue 8.
This character was super fun to play, switching between trying to off-tank and skirmish while I let the greatsword Battlemaster take the main frontline position. Being able to hold back and fire volleys of Sneak-bolts to harry anyone who survived the BM's slashes, then rush in to land finishing melee attacks with Sneak Attack + Smite riders was super fun. When necessary, I could hold the line for quite a while by spending time Dodging, or duel any Big Bads 1v1 and crush them Vengeance with burst damage. When necessary, I could flow through the enemy lines like water to rush their back-line mages/archers, but I spent most of my time on or near the front lines.

Early on, I suffered a bit from low HP and a careless playstyle. It became a recurring joke that it wasn't a real fight unless my character went down during combat, but I only died once during the whole campaign; I face-tanked a Balor towards the end-game, won the fight on 1hp with judicious use of critical Smites...and then the Balor exploded, dealing exactly enough damage to kill me standing when I botched the save. Naturally, I didn't have Evasion yet, but the Cleric had a diamond, so I was only dead for like 10 seconds.

Good times.

Jervis

2022-06-16, 12:57 PM

I gather these two classes are great independently; I’m wondering how to put them together. Is it just silly or is stacking smite with SA some good Schtuff? What subclasses make sense? Any ideas out there? Thanks in advance

Mechanically a Whip and Shield with Dueling isn’t as bad as you would think. The reach is actually pretty useful.

Corran

2022-06-16, 01:01 PM

I gather these two classes are great independently; I’m wondering how to put them together. Is it just silly or is stacking smite with SA some good Schtuff? What subclasses make sense? Any ideas out there? Thanks in advance
Eh. I am of the opinion that it looks better on paper than it plays out.

Positioning wise rogues are ideal switch hitters. Get into melee and draw some attention, then fall back and keep hitting stuff from range, or try to bait someone chase after you or do some hit and runs. Sneak attack essentially allows them to be reasonably effective both at melee and range. While paladins are a lot more geared to melee (good defenses, smite, auras), and other than engaging they dont tend to profit from moving around too much like a rogue would do. Because you either want to tank something and thus stick next to it, or you want to damage something and thus stick to it. Or you want to keep allies (or in some cases enemies; eg conquest or oathbreaker) within your auras, and thus stick close to them. Mobility can be important and cunning action can help with that sometimes, but generally you can count on something like a mount, teleportation (for some oaths) or sometimes you can use a spell or a CD as an action while closing the distance. Ie, cunning action's usefulness would be limited mostly to engaging stuff, as after a paladin will probably have enough better options for their bonus action since paladins dont profit too much from ping pong'ing around the battlefield (and if the fight favors some hit and running, you'll often have the option of the mount).

Paladins can profit from heavy armors (though dex based builds are not exactly bad, but you do trade stuff like PAM to go for a dex build, and S&B which is a common option if you also dont want to sacrifise defense after also probably avoiding something like PAM does not make the best of improved ranged attacks thanks to being a rogue), but this will clash with stealth.

Damage wise paladins want more attacks for IDS (and sometimes smite) stacking, while for rogues it would generally be either advantage or a second attack to maximize the chances of SA landing, and after that reaction attacks (which the paladin wont help them get).

There are a few good stuff a few-ish levels of paladins would grant the rogue. Like equipment proficiencies, mainly shield and longbow, or blind fighting, or a few spells like heroism, protection from evil and perhaps a few more would be handy to have, and extra attack is not (too) bad (even if you already have advantage;particularly if you combine it with athletics expertise for the opportunity to be decent at grappling ad shoving) to get. And smite and some CD wouldn't hurt. But there are options that will have better returns. And a few rogue levels are generally better on other classes than paladins, since paladins dont make the best use out of cunning action and since there is a clash of combat identity along with MADness.

Anyway, I am thinking vengeance/arcane trickster. Mostly because oath of enmity seems nice with sneack attack in melee and because adding cunning action might be less wasted on vengeance paladins (alhough they do get some good mobility options, so second thoughts on that one), and also because arcane tricksters are pretty good as rogue subclasses go (and would probably make the most of the added versatility added by paladin stuff likepotentially increased AC and blind fighting). Watches sounds thematically appropriate (in the sense that, to me at least, they have left me more with a roguish impression than with a paladin-y one) but I dont remember what they get.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 01:51 PM

Not sure if you've got something else in mind, but the reaction attack from sentinel works only for enemies within 5' of you, making reach not idea. Reach can also be bad somtimes with OA's, as it's possible for it to deny you sneak attack with your OA (especially if you have picked up sentinel with the aim of fighting next to an ally).

I'm not sure where you're getting the 5' thing from; my reading of the feat concerns itself with reach and OA's which by no means excludes the Reach of a whip. If you have a whip and Sentinel and someone attacks an ally within 10ft of you, you get a reaction attack.

@Corran: I agree that as a single class Rogue you can be suited to switch-hitting, but if you're MCing to Paladin then melee is probably going to be your focus, if only because that's where your auras are going to be most effective. Whilst yes, Cunning Action is great for kiting, it also allows you freedom to move where you will when you need it; whether that means Dashing or Disengaging. The additional movement, compounded by Mobility Feat if you have it, can be invaluable, particularly if enemy (or friendly) spellcasters are creating difficult terrain.

There's also no reason why a melee focused Rogue needs to even consider Stealth as an option. It's one of the great misconceptions that Rogues should or need to play to type any more than any other class has to play to their own stereotypes. On paper and in actual play, the Rogues abilities have quite a large degree of focus on staying in melee; Expertise in Athletics for grapples, good Dex Saves plus Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, the potential for off-turn Sneak Attack...it all says "front-line melee" while the only encouragement to kite or stay out of the thick of it is Cunning Action.

x3n0n

2022-06-16, 02:04 PM

If, at lvl.11+, you're not getting Sneak Attack on each of your own turns, if not extra off-turn attacks, then you're doing something wrong. A Rogue with (at level 11) 6d6 Sneak Attack is ideally adding 12d6 (42) damage per round. A Paladin under the same circumstance is getting 4d8 (18) from IDS. Yes, the Paladin can add extra by spending spell slots, but that's a limited resource. Even without an off-turn SA the Rogue does more bonus damage (ignoring other factors). The difference is stark when you look at it.

I don't disagree with any of that, but splitting the baby in half seems like a loss. (I.e., Pal 6/Rogue 5's Sneak Attack is 3d6, not 6d6.)

If I'm actually playing at all levels, every level of multiclassing before 6 delays Aura of Protection for my party. In addition, of all of the martial classes, Paladin is the one that I'm the least likely to "want out of" early in tier 2.

7: maybe. How goes is your oath aura?
8: an ASI on a MAD class
9: 3rd-level spells
10: maybe, but Aura of Courage is really good if you have other martials in the party.
11: IDS
12: another ASI
13: 4th-level spells (Find Greater Steed!)

Also, every resource spent on getting an otherwise-unnecessary 13 in Str is lost advancement on the second MADdest class in the game. As Willie described above, if you have just a little bit of help in the form of good rolls or extra point buy, that is less problematic.

Ignoring multiclass restrictions, Paladin 6/Rogue X seems fine, and Swashbuckler particularly fun. *Not* having IDS means you don't need to always be in melee, which makes the whole Dexadin thing not feel like you're leaving as much on the table.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 02:38 PM

I don't disagree with any of that, but splitting the baby in half seems like a loss. (I.e., Pal 6/Rogue 5's Sneak Attack is 3d6, not 6d6.)

If I'm actually playing at all levels, every level of multiclassing delays Aura of Protection for my party. Of all of the martial classes, Paladin is the one that I'm the least likely to "want out of".

7: maybe. How goes is your oath aura?
8: an ASI on a MAD class
9: 3rd-level spells
10: maybe, but Aura of Courage is really good if you have other martials in the party.
11: IDS
12: another ASI
13: 4th-level spells (Find Greater Steed!)

Also, every resource spent on getting an otherwise-unnecessary 13 in Str is lost advancement on the second MADdest class in the game. As Willie described above, if you have just a little bit of help in the form of good rolls or extra point buy, that is less problematic.

Ignoring multiclass restrictions, Paladin 6/Rogue X seems fine, and Swashbuckler particularly fun. *Not* having IDS means you don't need to always be in melee, which makes the whole Dexadin thing not feel like you're leaving as much on the table.

As I said earlier, Dex based Paladin/Rogue is a mistake; go Str focused. The former can work, but it's not taking advantage of the best possibilities of the MC. Paladin doesn't require Str in the same way as, say, a Barbarian MC does, but it can mitigate the MADness. As well, further mitigation of the usual considerations of such a role i.e. Higher Con for HP, is ameliorated by both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, making your HP total stretch further than you might think.

x3n0n

2022-06-16, 03:10 PM

As I said earlier, Dex based Paladin/Rogue is a mistake; go Str focused. The former can work, but it's not taking advantage of the best possibilities of the MC. Paladin doesn't require Str in the same way as, say, a Barbarian MC does, but it can mitigate the MADness. As well, further mitigation of the usual considerations of such a role i.e. Higher Con for HP, is ameliorated by both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, making your HP total stretch further than you might think.

Ok, now I've talked myself into this not being a big deal.

Both of these are eligible starting Half Elf stats for Paladin/Rogue.
16/13/14/8/9/16
13/16/14/8/9/16

Why would I prefer the first over the second for a Paladin 6/Rogue X?

The advantages I see are heavy armor, option to GWF (but no Sneak Attack then), Str saves (??), and slightly better Athletics.
The second has better initiative, better ranged attacks (in combo with Snake Attack, mitigating a traditional weakness of Paladins), better scores on Dex skills, option to avoid disadvantage on stealth.

It's not obvious to me that the first is conclusively better.

JellyPooga

2022-06-16, 03:59 PM

Ok, now I've talked myself into this not being a big deal.

Both of these are eligible starting Half Elf stats for Paladin/Rogue.
16/13/14/8/9/16
13/16/14/8/9/16

Why would I prefer the first over the second for a Paladin 6/Rogue X?

The advantages I see are heavy armor, option to GWF (but no Sneak Attack then), Str saves (??), and slightly better Athletics.
The second has better initiative, better ranged attacks (in combo with Snake Attack, mitigating a traditional weakness of Paladins), better scores on Dex skills, option to avoid disadvantage on stealth.

It's not obvious to me that the first is conclusively better.

I think you might be missing a trick on the Str focus. For one, Medium Armour offers AC comparable to Heavy (only one point difference, or two if you want the Stealth option) and if you go Sword&Board vs. GWF a one point advantage. This encourages a 14 Dex which also helps with Initiative and Ranged attacks (which, as you say, are viable due to Sneak Attack). It also grants superior Athletics (which at level 1 is only a single pojnt difference but at later levels, with focus, can be a 3pt difference or even more with magic items), which not only is useful for grapples (which can be very effective alongside Enlarge/Reduce; a spell that has both in and out of combat utility without need for Int), but for non-combat scenarios involving running, jumping, climbing trees etc.

Where a "true" martial (i.e. one that get Extra Attack) gains a lot from Rogue is Cunning Action. One of the benefits of grapple that is little realised is the ability to drag your victim to a compromising position (e.g. next to your damage dealers). The problem with this is that you only move at half speed when doing so. Cunning Action mitigates this issue by effectively doubling (or more) your speed. So you BA Disengage to run through the line, engage your target, grapple and shove prone. Your victim is immobilised. Next turn you haul that mutha all the way over to where the party Barbarian/Fighter/Other Striker can wail on them to their hearts content, but not until you've taken the opportunity to get a couple of Sneak Attacks in on the prone, vulnerable spellcaster (or other squisy) that thought they were safe behind their line of mook-squad brutes.

On the subject of Ability Scores, Con really doesn't need to be that high. A 12 is fine. As I mentioned earlier, Concentration is less of an issue for this build due to superlafive defenses and HP are less of an issue due to Uncanny Dodge (I'll again implore you to run the numbers on how UD affects your effective HP vs. having more of them; for brevity's sake essentially it boils down to (lvl x Con bonus) vs. (average enemy damage per attack per round) - assuming an enemy is dealing, on average, more than your level in damage per attack, it only takes two hits for Uncanny Dodge to equal an additional point of Con bonus (or increase in HD die type; yes, Rogues have more HP than Fighters, Rangers and Paladins) and three to beat it. Based on the assumption that you'll get hit more than twice between rests, short or long, Uncanny Dodge is increasingly more effective at staving off those Death Saves than Con bonus).

x3n0n

2022-06-16, 05:19 PM

I think you might be missing a trick on the Str focus. For one, Medium Armour offers AC comparable to Heavy (only one point difference, or two if you want the Stealth option) and if you go Sword&Board vs. GWF a one point advantage. This encourages a 14 Dex which also helps with Initiative and Ranged attacks (which, as you say, are viable due to Sneak Attack). It also grants superior Athletics (which at level 1 is only a single pojnt difference but at later levels, with focus, can be a 3pt difference or even more with magic items), which not only is useful for grapples (which can be very effective alongside Enlarge/Reduce; a spell that has both in and out of combat utility without need for Int), but for non-combat scenarios involving running, jumping, climbing trees etc.

Where a "true" martial (i.e. one that get Extra Attack) gains a lot from Rogue is Cunning Action. One of the benefits of grapple that is little realised is the ability to drag your victim to a compromising position (e.g. next to your damage dealers). The problem with this is that you only move at half speed when doing so. Cunning Action mitigates this issue by effectively doubling (or more) your speed. So you BA Disengage to run through the line, engage your target, grapple and shove prone. Your victim is immobilised. Next turn you haul that mutha all the way over to where the party Barbarian/Fighter/Other Striker can wail on them to their hearts content, but not until you've taken the opportunity to get a couple of Sneak Attacks in on the prone, vulnerable spellcaster (or other squisy) that thought they were safe behind their line of mook-squad brutes.

On the subject of Ability Scores, Con really doesn't need to be that high. A 12 is fine. As I mentioned earlier, Concentration is less of an issue for this build due to superlafive defenses and HP are less of an issue due to Uncanny Dodge (I'll again implore you to run the numbers on how UD affects your effective HP vs. having more of them; for brevity's sake essentially it boils down to (lvl x Con bonus) vs. (average enemy damage per attack per round) - assuming an enemy is dealing, on average, more than your level in damage per attack, it only takes two hits for Uncanny Dodge to equal an additional point of Con bonus (or increase in HD die type; yes, Rogues have more HP than Fighters, Rangers and Paladins) and three to beat it. Based on the assumption that you'll get hit more than twice between rests, short or long, Uncanny Dodge is increasingly more effective at staving off those Death Saves than Con bonus).

Re: Uncanny Dodge is a lot of "effective" HP, yes, for sure.
Re: Cunning Action is great for Paladins: yes, for sure.
Re: Con saves aren't that bad for Paladins: yes, for sure, especially after Paladin 6.
Re: Con +1 is enough durability to get you through to Uncanny Dodge...I'm not sure I'm convinced, but I'll go with it.

Given that, working backwards from a 12 Con, I think that opens up these two Half-Elf stat lines (using the bonuses for +1 Str +1 Dex +2 Cha):
16 14 12 8 10 16
14 16 12 8 10 16

Both characters take one of their Expertise slots in Athletics whenever Rogue 1 rolls around.

Comparing them:

The Dex>Str build is relatively +1 initiative, ranged attacks, and all Dex checks and saves.
The Str>Dex build is relatively +1 on Str checks/saves, can jump 15 feet (instead of 14), can carry 30# more, and can choose to wear splint/plate without penalties (likely net +1 vs the best AC otherwise).
They have:

the same attack mod when using finesse weapons,
the same AC (best in class) if using medium armor,
crazy high Athletics checks for their level, and
(assuming Paladin 6+) they both have very good Dex and Str saves.

Again, it's not obvious to me that the Str>Dex character in this pairing is ahead. (For that matter, of all of the stat lines I've posted, 13/16/14/8/9/16 is my favorite--its only apparent relative weakness to me is -1 on Wis checks, which can be somewhat mitigated by taking Perception as a skill (perhaps an Expertise), maybe Insight as well, and accepting crappy Animal Handling and Survival checks.)

Am I still missing something?

Edit: another reason I don't want to invest more than necessary in Str is that I would not be surprised to end up with Gauntlets of Ogre Power (or even a Belt of Giant Strength); there's no corresponding Dex item in printed materials that I'm aware of.

Corran

2022-06-16, 07:44 PM

I'm not sure where you're getting the 5' thing from; my reading of the feat concerns itself with reach and OA's which by no means excludes the Reach of a whip. If you have a whip and Sentinel and someone attacks an ally within 10ft of you, you get a reaction attack.
I read the third clause as "When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you....".
Is there an errata or an updted version?

There's also no reason why a melee focused Rogue needs to even consider Stealth as an option. It's one of the great misconceptions that Rogues should or need to play to type any more than any other class has to play to their own stereotypes.
It's just opportunity cost. Roughly in the form of, do I choose heavy armor strogue for better AC and athletics or do I choose light/medium armor (st)rogue for better stealth and initiative (and maybe ranged attacks)? I can imagine myself picking the first option, though hurting, say, stealth and/or ranged attacks, is opportunity cost. Maybe I can justify it mechanically and/or not find it appealing thematically, but it still is what it is.

I might still pick stealth expertise with a heavily armored strogue (particularly if I had access to PwT or reliable talent). Stealth is a good option regardless. It's true that rogues come to mind when you are thinking of stealth, and that may be part of tradition or themes or whatever, but the 5e rogue is given enough incentive to be stealthy. Not much reliance on STR as sneak attack does not particularly care for STR-compatible feats like GWM, PAM. Lacking access to heavy armors. Expetrtise and reliable talent are handy for checks where failing can be very bad (and stealth checks can fall into this category easily enough).

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-06-16, 09:08 PM

Inquisitors are awesome. Being able to sneak in and bring the heat before your enemies even think there's a problem is strong, even if it looks like in a stand up fight you're a little weaker. I'd say just limit the Rogue levels to 1-3 levels for max spells and smites.

JellyPooga

2022-06-17, 09:43 AM

I read the third clause as "When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you....".
Is there an errata or an updted version?Yes, the line "within 5ft of you" has been removed (you can google the errata if you want to confirm it).

It's just opportunity cost.Indeed. Building this with Str>Dex doesn't make a lot of odds, but given high AC, decent HP (and damage reduction) and auras, it makes sense not to be the typical "stealth and kiting" skirmisher that most Rogues are, double down on grapples and other close-quarter debuffs/spells (e.g. an Ancients Palaldin might exploit Ensnaring Strike) to control the battlefield and protect the party (particularly the squishies), using superior mobility to be where and when they need to be, whether that's line-breaking with the other melee PCs, assaulting the back-line or high-tailing it back to protect (or rescue!) their own back-line. For this kind of role, ranged attacks are mostly an afterthought and Initiative is always nice but not a huge focus, whereas the bonus to grapples and AC (and resisting Str Saves, which often restrict movement) is always going to be relevant.

As has been said, the difference isn't so significant so as to make one the super obvious choice over the other (at least until ASI's come along), but for the playstyle I'm advocating Str>Dex is the better (if only slightly) choice.

x3n0n

2022-06-17, 10:21 AM

Yes, the line "within 5ft of you" has been removed (you can google the errata if you want to confirm it).

The errata has just confused me further. :)

From the latest version of the PHB errata, emphasis mine: "Sentinel (p. 169). The text “within 5 feet of you” has been removed from the second benefit."

You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:

When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.

I am struggling to figure out what the second benefit's original text would have been for the erratum to make sense.

Indeed. Building this with Str>Dex doesn't make a lot of odds, but given high AC, decent HP (and damage reduction) and auras, it makes sense not to be the typical "stealth and kiting" skirmisher that most Rogues are, double down on grapples and other close-quarter debuffs/spells (e.g. an Ancients Palaldin might exploit Ensnaring Strike) to control the battlefield and protect the party (particularly the squishies), using superior mobility to be where and when they need to be, whether that's line-breaking with the other melee PCs, assaulting the back-line or high-tailing it back to protect (or rescue!) their own back-line. For this kind of role, ranged attacks are mostly an afterthought and Initiative is always nice but not a huge focus, whereas the bonus to grapples and AC (and resisting Str Saves, which often restrict movement) is always going to be relevant.

As has been said, the difference isn't so significant so as to make one the super obvious choice over the other (at least until ASI's come along), but for the playstyle I'm advocating Str>Dex is the better (if only slightly) choice.

Ok, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

That is, provided that I go to at least Paladin 6 before going into Rogue (making Str saves not much of a problem), I take Athletics as one of my first Expertise (making that a non-issue), and I am using finesse weapons anyway, I'd rather start with Dex>Str and widen that gap with ASIs.
If you prefer the additional point of AC and Str saves, I certainly won't begrudge you that, but I think I would rarely make that choice.