Manifest Mind vs Counterspell

[JohnDaBarr]

Had this situation come up today: My wizard was out of sight and casting a lvl 3 spell using Manifest Mind so the enemy casters went for Counterspell. I pointed out that for counterspell to work the enemy caster has to see my wizard, but DM disagreed. Long story short DM decided to a compromise. The spell can be countered but enemy caster will roll spellcasting modifier against the spell DC.

I was generally satisfied with the compromise, still this question is now bugging me...
So asked about this in the Q&A and looks like its up to the DM...
Is there any general consensus about this in the community?


Basically, relevant Manifest Mind wording is: Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind's space, instead of your own, using its senses.

While Counterspell wording is: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell


My take on it is: since Manifest Mind isn't a creature and not the origin but just a conduit for a spell it can not be targeted by Counterspell. Also, wording on Manifest Mind doesn't bi locate your caster in two positions, the as if you were in the spectral mind's space in reference of your senses and not your location. But that is just my take on this.

[Kane0]

From what I understand, by the strict rules you are right and counterspell should not have worked.

By what sounded like how it played out at the table, I think the DM made a fair call to keep things running smoothly.

Edit: For reference, Trickery Clerics can pull off something very similar using their Duplicity

[GeoffWatson]

It says "as if you were in the spectral mind's space".
If you were there for targeting you are also there for counterspelling.

I could argue it either way.

[tKUUNK]

I think the DM's call was fair.

However, I would call it in your favor. Partly because it's a player finding a clever solution to a common problem, which I try to encourage.

But also because I don't think anything about the Manifest Mind would indicate a spell was being cast through it....therefore, no triggering condition for the counterspell.

If you believe Subtle Spell can avoid a counterspell because you're not satisfying the triggering condition (no obvious spellcasting within line of sight), Manifest Mind should probably work the same way. IMO.

[JohnDaBarr]

It says "as if you were in the spectral mind's space".
If you were there for targeting you are also there for counterspelling.

I could argue it either way.

Can't agree that it can go either way because as if you were in the spectral mind's space doesn't mean your PC is manifested there as an illusion or something, that space is occupied by a spectral object and the object doesn't indicate in an obvious way that any casting is taking place.



I think the DM's call was fair.

However, I would call it in your favor. Partly because it's a player finding a clever solution to a common problem, which I try to encourage.

But also because I don't think anything about the Manifest Mind would indicate a spell was being cast through it....therefore, no triggering condition for the counterspell.

If you believe Subtle Spell can avoid a counterspell because you're not satisfying the triggering condition (no obvious spellcasting within line of sight), Manifest Mind should probably work the same way. IMO.

Yeah, the ruling was fair.
Now the question is if you go by that ruling and my wizard was in sight and in range for counterspell but the Manifest Mind was in sight but out of range from the enemy caster would the spell cast through Manifest Mind be counterable?

[Psyren]

Reiterating my response in the Simple RAW Thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611551-Simple-RAW-for-5e-V-The-Disadvantage-Strikes-Back&p=25491806&viewfull=1#post25491806), there is no clear-cut answer here. Your DM will need to make a ruling, and it seems like they did.


Can't agree that it can go either way because as if you were in the spectral mind's space doesn't mean your PC is manifested there as an illusion or something, that space is occupied by a spectral object and the object doesn't indicate in an obvious way that any casting is taking place.

Underline is an assumption on your part that could reasonably go either way. All we know is that the spell casts as if you're standing there. If the Mind is 300ft away from you and then you cast Suggestion through it on someone another 30ft. away from it for example, they can still hear your instructions, so it's reasonable to conclude the Mind is at least capable of conveying verbal components.