Assay SR and True Casting at epic levels

[Biggus]

Assay Spell Resistance (SpC p.17) and True Casting (CM p.121) give a +10 bonus to caster level checks vs SR. ASR is C4, S/W4, untyped bonus, a swift action to cast, lasts 1 round per level, and affects only one opponent. TC is S/W1, insight bonus, standard action, and only affects a single spell.

These aren't too problematic at low-mid levels because the spell slot (ASR) or the standard action (TC) represent a significant tax. But at epic levels, with Improved Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Multispell and more low-level spell-slots than you know what to do with, it can safely be assumed any caster who wants them can cast them at will without it being much of a cost.

Also, by epic levels all nonepic spells are readily available, and there are quite a few save-or-lose spells which are save: no but SR: yes, so ASR/TC mean they're basically irresistable, at least by monsters which don't have spells or magic items themselves. So I'm looking to make them a bit less powerful without making them worthless.

What I've already done:

Changed Multispell so you can only take it once.

Changed ASR to an insight bonus so it doesn't stack with TC.

Added ASR to the class list of all full casters because currently SR is trivial for epic Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards to overcome but a significant headache for other classes.

What I'm considering:

Reducing the bonus each gives to somewhere between +6 and +8.

Making ASR a standard action.

I'm not entirely happy with either of these solutions, I'd like to hear any suggestions for how to keep them useful but not just be total a "ignore SR button".

PS: I've heard various arguments that ASR and TC should stay as they are, and I'm not interested in discussing those here, because (among other things) other house-rules of mine have made some of those arguments moot.

[Dimers]

You could have one of them offer a reroll on a failed check, or a double-roll in the first place. Essentially the same thing since you can't crit, though the reroll could help you pin down the exact value of SR. Double-rolling only adds about +3 to the result on average.

Do you have any qualms about lower spell resistance, which SC surprisingly did not update to its spell vulnerability? It effectively gives the whole party +15 untyped against one creature. Its drawbacks are a longer cast time and Close range (and, like ASR, you have to be able to target the creature). The saving throw isn't a meaningful drawback since it's penalized by your entire CL.

[Biggus]

You could have one of them offer a reroll on a failed check, or a double-roll in the first place. Essentially the same thing since you can't crit, though the reroll could help you pin down the exact value of SR. Double-rolling only adds about +3 to the result on average.

Not a bad idea, I'll have a think about that, thank you.


Do you have any qualms about lower spell resistance, which SC surprisingly did not update to its spell vulnerability? It effectively gives the whole party +15 untyped against one creature. Its drawbacks are a longer cast time and Close range (and, like ASR, you have to be able to target the creature). The saving throw isn't a meaningful drawback since it's penalized by your entire CL.

I'd forgotten about that. I have less of a problem with it, as it can't be quickened unless you have Rapid Spell as well. Taking up an entire round is a significant tax, and means it can be disrupted when casting without readying an action. Also, at epic levels some creature have truly insane saving throws (the devastation vermin come to mind) so even a -15 penalty isn't necessarily a guarantee of success.

[Fero]

Taking a swift action to cast either spell imposes a significant opportunity cost at epic levels. The character could otherwise use that action to take any number of other useful actions.

[Anthrowhale]

Is Irresistible Dance an example of the sort of effect you are concerned with? Many epic challenges deal with this via immunities rather than SR.

[Fero]

Is Irresistible Dance an example of the sort of effect you are concerned with? Many epic challenges deal with this via immunities rather than SR.

I once hit a Tarrasque with Irresistible Dance. Best Game Ever. Also, I agree that SR takes a backseat to immunities at EL.

[Dimers]

at epic levels some creature have truly insane saving throws (the devastation vermin come to mind) so even a -15 penalty isn't necessarily a guarantee of success.

The -15 is only for SR -- the save penalty is uncapped. You're not wrong, though. Epic's got some pretty high modifiers.

[flappeercraft]

Overall wouldn't the easiest solution to Assay SR and True Casting be to raise the SR of monsters? Instead of changing Assay SR and True Casting to be less useful with several rules, this makes it in a single rule change and the result is pretty much the same.

[Fizban]

I cut Assay Spell Resistance to +5 (and made it a standard action). SR is in theory a roughly 50/50 roll for equal CR creatures (in practice, many creatures have lower or higher values), so a +5 from a spell even without feats increases your odds to 75%, which is huge. If you're allowing them at +10, that's already enough to go from 50/50 to guaranteed. Unless the epic SR values start at a higher base, but that also begs the question of what all your feats are supposed to have been doing (why not just take Spell Penetration?)- it's very arguable that characters at that level flat out shouldn't be able to do X without feat and even gear investment, rather than essentially free spells known.

[Biggus]

Is Irresistible Dance an example of the sort of effect you are concerned with? Many epic challenges deal with this via immunities rather than SR.

Yes, things like Irresistable Dance, Maze, Amber Sarcophagus are the biggest problems. While some of them fit the standard immunities, others aren't resisted by anything except Greater Spell Immunity as far as I know.

But more generally, the fact that most epic creatures have SR as a major part of their defences and they later printed two low/mid level spells which make it entirely irrelevant seems problematic to me.


I cut Assay Spell Resistance to +5 (and made it a standard action). SR is in theory a roughly 50/50 roll for equal CR creatures (in practice, many creatures have lower or higher values), so a +5 from a spell even without feats increases your odds to 75%, which is huge. If you're allowing them at +10, that's already enough to go from 50/50 to guaranteed.

Very interesting, did the spell still see much use after you did that?

[Fizban]

Very interesting, did the spell still see much use after you did that?
Haven't played in ages and the spell never came up then either (summoners and other classes). It's low enough that I wouldn't consider it the best way to deal with SR, which is the target. I would expect an optimizing wizard player to still take the spell anyway, and then find out later whether they actually wanted to use it. The effect is absolutely still very powerful, with obvious use-cases, but if it's weak/situational enough that people no longer want it as a first resort then that's exactly what I'm going for.

[remetagross]

Hmmm you could simply swap the standard (crappy) feats of epic monsters for Improved Spell Resistance a bunch of times.

For example, I'm looking at the Shape of Fire. It's a CR 26 monster with SR 36. But it has Alertness, Blind-fight, Lightning Reflexes, Combat Expertise and Great Fortitude as crappy standard feats. Swap all them for Improved Spell Resistance five times, and now your Shape of Fire has SR 46. This means your caster dude with CL 26 and Assay Spell Resistance still has a 50% chance to fail its spell penetration roll.

An Uvuudaum is CR 27 and has SR 39, but the crappy Cleave, Combat Casting, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (head spike), Lightning Reflexes and Epic Reflexes as standard feats. Bam, SR 51 instead.

An Elder Titan is CR 30 and has SR 40. Get rid of Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (warhammer), Improved Critical (javelin), Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (warhammer), Weapon Focus (javelin), Devastating Critical (warhammer), Epic Weapon Focus (warhammer), Epic Weapon Focus (javelin), Overwhelming Critical (warhammer), Polyglot. Bam, SR 68.

In all these cases, this is a quick and dirty way to bump the monster's SR to 20 or more over its CR, in which case the casters (which I assume are already gorged with CL-boosting abilities) will likely need Assay Spell Resistance or True Casting to get anything past these monsters.

Finally, for monsters having their own WBL, have them carry a spellblade attuned to Assay Spell Resistance and bam, they're immune to that spell. Which means the PCs have to dish out one Quickened True Casting per round.

[Biggus]

Hmmm you could simply swap the standard (crappy) feats of epic monsters for Improved Spell Resistance a bunch of times.

For example, I'm looking at the Shape of Fire. It's a CR 26 monster with SR 36. But it has Alertness, Blind-fight, Lightning Reflexes, Combat Expertise and Great Fortitude as crappy standard feats. Swap all them for Improved Spell Resistance five times, and now your Shape of Fire has SR 46. This means your caster dude with CL 26 and Assay Spell Resistance still has a 50% chance to fail its spell penetration roll.

An Uvuudaum is CR 27 and has SR 39, but the crappy Cleave, Combat Casting, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (head spike), Lightning Reflexes and Epic Reflexes as standard feats. Bam, SR 51 instead.

An Elder Titan is CR 30 and has SR 40. Get rid of Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (warhammer), Improved Critical (javelin), Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (warhammer), Weapon Focus (javelin), Devastating Critical (warhammer), Epic Weapon Focus (warhammer), Epic Weapon Focus (javelin), Overwhelming Critical (warhammer), Polyglot. Bam, SR 68.

In all these cases, this is a quick and dirty way to bump the monster's SR to 20 or more over its CR, in which case the casters (which I assume are already gorged with CL-boosting abilities) will likely need Assay Spell Resistance or True Casting to get anything past these monsters.

Finally, for monsters having their own WBL, have them carry a spellblade attuned to Assay Spell Resistance and bam, they're immune to that spell. Which means the PCs have to dish out one Quickened True Casting per round.

I have done this to some extent: I use the PF feat progression (1/2 levels instead of 1/3) and many of them got Improved SR one or more times among their extra feats, because even ASR/TC aside most epic casters will have a significant caster level bonus vs SR. But to my mind the balance problem isn't the SR of epic monsters, it's the existence of spells (and low-level spells, at that) which give such a huge boost against it. Also, I don't like the idea of making monsters' SR so high that anyone who doesn't have TC or ASR has no chance to affect them.

[Anthrowhale]

Yes, things like Irresistable Dance, Maze, Amber Sarcophagus are the biggest problems. While some of them fit the standard immunities, others aren't resisted by anything except Greater Spell Immunity as far as I know.
How do you plan to handle the SR:No Save:No battlefield control spells like Kelpstrand, Wall of Sand, Forcecage? Something like a rod Widened Forcecage shuts down nearly every opponent lacking dimensional transport, for example.

A couple other things to consider:
(a) A Spellwarp Sniper can strip a reflex save from some SR:No spells like Call Avalanche or Rain of Spines
(b) A Dweomerkeeper can strip SR:Yes off of spells via Supernatural Spell.

[Rebel7284]

I understand the desire to make SR more relevant. However, I worry that this could just lead to the party using more SR: No spells and thus actually making combat more boring as the same spells get used over and over again.

[Doctor Despair]

A couple other things to consider:
(a) A Spellwarp Sniper can strip a reflex save from some SR:No spells like Call Avalanche or Rain of Spines.

There's something funny to me about the idea of a mage pointing at someone near them and just completely burying their square in a 5x5 cube of packed snow and ice that wallops them in the face. Who needs orb of X, right?

[Biggus]

How do you plan to handle the SR:No Save:No battlefield control spells like Kelpstrand, Wall of Sand, Forcecage? Something like a rod Widened Forcecage shuts down nearly every opponent lacking dimensional transport, for example.

A couple other things to consider:
(a) A Spellwarp Sniper can strip a reflex save from some SR:No spells like Call Avalanche or Rain of Spines
(b) A Dweomerkeeper can strip SR:Yes off of spells via Supernatural Spell.

Widened Forcecage isn't a thing:


Widen Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit
You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. [...] Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.

Also, I've houseruled that a DC32 strength check can break a force effect, like the Legendary Dreadnought's Unstoppable ability except anyone can do it (they don't get the +20 bonus, obviously, but plenty of epic creatures have Str 34+ and so have a chance to do it anyway).

Wall of Sand isn't a major problem at epic because of this:


This spell conjures up a 10-foot-thick, viscous, opaque wall of swirling sand [...] A creature moves 5 feet through a wall of sand for every 5 points by which its Strength check result exceeds 10

Many epic creatures can make the DC 25 Str check to move right through it.

Kelpstrand is very strong, although many epic creatures have insane grapple bonuses. It hasn't been a problem yet but if it becomes one, I'll change it.

Spellwarp Sniper and Dweomerkeeper I'm not too worried about. The SWS can only remove reflex saves, which are generally the least problematic of the three (although there are exceptions as you mentioned), and the DK can only use their Supernatural Spell ability a few times a day until you get to really high epic levels. Also, I don't mind characters being able to overcome the usual limitations if they've invested heavily to be able to do so, it's the fact Assay SR allows anyone who has it on their spell list to do so with ease that I don't like.

Ultimately, this line of questioning isn't helping, because this isn't a change I'm making in isolation, it's part of my ongoing project to rebalance epic. Any similar issues I'll houserule as they come up if they become game-breaking.

[Doctor Despair]

Also, I've houseruled that a DC32 strength check can break a force effect, like the Legendary Dreadnought's Unstoppable ability except anyone can do it (they don't get the +20 bonus, obviously, but plenty of epic creatures have Str 34+ and so have a chance to do it anyway).


Just be aware that the standard mundane way to bypass forcecage/walls of force would be a DC120 skill check, so you're kinda trivializing the entire spell by dropping it down to something anyone can do with 34 strength and 20 rounds. As you're rebalancing epic, maybe that's not a concern for you though.

[Anthrowhale]

There's something funny to me about the idea of a mage pointing at someone near them and just completely burying their square in a 5x5 cube of packed snow and ice that wallops them in the face. Who needs orb of X, right?
At epic levels, you can even bury a colossal creature :smallsmile:

Widened Forcecage isn't a thing:

Ah, good point. That does limit the scope.



Wall of Sand isn't a major problem at epic because of this:

Wall of Sand is (S) = Shapeable. As a consequence anything which can legitimately be called a straightline and which is formed from 10x10 squares is plausibly valid. For example, at caster level 24, a 40'x60' line might be enough to slow even an epic strong monster down.

Incidentally, Ghost Trap and (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation also have a more specialized form of this flavor.



Ultimately, this line of questioning isn't helping...
Ah, apologies.

[Biggus]

Just be aware that the standard mundane way to bypass forcecage/walls of force would be a DC120 skill check, so you're kinda trivializing the entire spell by dropping it down to something anyone can do with 34 strength and 20 rounds. As you're rebalancing epic, maybe that's not a concern for you though.

I feel "trivialising" is something of an overstatement. Unless you're intending to take the target alive (a rarity in my games, YMMV) the 20 rounds isn't going to matter as it doesn't take anywhere near that long to kill an opponent, especially in a high-level game. You need Str 52 to have a 50-50 chance of escaping in a single round, and pretty much all the monsters with Str that high are too big for Forcecage anyway (not including high-epic NPCs, obviously, but they'll often have other ways round it).

Also, weakening Forcecage is entirely intentional. As I see it, a 7th-level spell being a "no save, just lose" against lots of CR 30+ opponents is completely overpowered. When Forcecage first becomes available the 1,500GP per casting is a real cost, but when the PCs are making an average of over 20,000GP per person per fight it isn't (and that's if they haven't taken Ignore Material Components to remove it completely).



Wall of Sand is (S) = Shapeable. As a consequence anything which can legitimately be called a straightline and which is formed from 10x10 squares is plausibly valid. For example, at caster level 24, a 40'x60' line might be enough to slow even an epic strong monster down.

Fair point, it would take a very high Str to get through that quickly.



Ah, apologies.

No worries :smallsmile:

[Crake]

SR is in theory a roughly 50/50 roll for equal CR creatures (in practice, many creatures have lower or higher values)

Just wanna pop in and say that 50/50 is not at all the intended mechanic. It's meant to be pseudo-similar to old school spell resistance, which was a flat % value, but instead allow it to scale based on your power with relation to the enemy, rather than forever remaining at whatever value it was to begin with.

Mind flayers, for example, had 90% magic resistance in 2e, and in 3.5 they have SR25 at level 8. A bit of a nerf, since CL8 needs to roll 17, which means it's actually only 80% magic resistance when CR appropriate, but you get the idea.

Point being, not all SR is equal with relation to CR, and that's by intentional design.

[Biggus]

Just wanna pop in and say that 50/50 is not at all the intended mechanic. It's meant to be pseudo-similar to old school spell resistance, which was a flat % value, but instead allow it to scale based on your power with relation to the enemy, rather than forever remaining at whatever value it was to begin with.

Mind flayers, for example, had 90% magic resistance in 2e, and in 3.5 they have SR25 at level 8. A bit of a nerf, since CL8 needs to roll 17, which means it's actually only 80% magic resistance when CR appropriate, but you get the idea.

Point being, not all SR is equal with relation to CR, and that's by intentional design.

Very interesting, I didn't know that SR was meant to be a direct parallel to magic resistance in that way.

However, it's also true that 50/50 SR is explicitly the default in 3.5 (DMG p.300, sidebar).