High level martial caster

[Selion]

I was wandering about a detail of "find greater steed" which i have overlooked before: "While mounted on it, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target the mount".
So my idea is:

War wizard (not the strongest school, but the best users o tenser transformation IMHO)

- tenser transformation
- crown of stars (pre- long duration buff)
- Wish (find greater steed)

this offers a total of 16d12 force dmg per turn + weapons dmg including mount and rider, +50 hp on you and your mount, advantage on attacks. Additionally the war magic school offers in this form +5 to initiative, +2 AC, +2 AC or +4 TS once per turn and the ability to reflect a little dmg on multiple targets

i know that at 17 level + a wizard is not supposed to "simply do dmg" and some high level spells are just auto-win buttons, but the dmg benchmark still seems quite high and problably on par with martial classes.

Is there some other spell which could work with this weird playstyle ? In particular i'm searching for other long duration - non concentration buffs or low level non concentration buffs to activate with contingency.

Bonus: the same combo is available to bards a few levels in advance

[Jervis]

Tenser’s Trap is the worst spell in 5th edition. Actually Tenser’s Tableflip might be the worst spell in every edition it appears in. Tenser’s Tonsillectomy makes you trade your class features for being a OK fighter for a little while, but requires concentration so you can’t stack it with any other concentration spells and need to save whenever you take damage. And if you loose concentration on Tenser’s Tongue Torsion during that 10 minutes you’re in melee holding weapons you aren’t proficient with and with no bonuses to saves or temp hp to protect you. On top of that you can’t even use the armor proficiency Tenser’s Tortious-Interference gives you because it doesn’t last long enough.

[RSP]

AoA, Foresight, SB, Fire Shield, Greater Invisible, Haste, Crown of Stars

[Kane0]

Beastmasters also get the same thing with their companion, the challenge is getting good spells to apply.



Tenser’s Trap is the worst spell in 5th edition. Actually Tenser’s Tableflip might be the worst spell in every edition it appears in. Tenser’s Tonsillectomy Tenser’s Tongue Torsion Tenser’s Tortious-Interference

You got me, I laughed.

I've also homebrewed a better version of Tenser's Travesty for my table.


Tenser's Transformation
6th level Transmutation
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: S, M
Duration: 10 minutes

Until the spell ends, you cannot cast or concentrate on spells and gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost
- Your AC cannot be less than 18 regardless of what armor you are wearing
- You have advantage on weapon attack rolls
- Your weapon attacks deal an extra 2d12 force damage
- You have proficiency with all simple weapons, martial weapons and shields
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws
- You can attack twice instead of once when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.

You can choose to end this spell early as a bonus action. If you do so you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

[meandean]

Tenser’s Trap is the worst spell in 5th edition. Actually Tenser’s Tableflip might be the worst spell in every edition it appears in. Tenser’s Tonsillectomy makes you trade your class features for being a OK fighter for a little while, but requires concentration so you can’t stack it with any other concentration spells and need to save whenever you take damage. And if you loose concentration on Tenser’s Tongue Torsion during that 10 minutes you’re in melee holding weapons you aren’t proficient with and with no bonuses to saves or temp hp to protect you. On top of that you can’t even use the armor proficiency Tenser’s Tortious-Interference gives you because it doesn’t last long enough.Yeah, basically. Also, if you're an optimized 11th-level Wizard, there's a great chance that you either already have War Caster/CON save proficiency or are about to get it. Also, if you can't pre-cast the spell before combat starts, it's using up that critical first action. (I suppose it at least has a 10-minute duration, so perhaps could last through multiple combats, if they occur in quick succession and if you don't lose concentration.) Also, if you don't have an appropriate magic weapon (which presumably are being doled out first to the martials in your party), you'll often only be getting the "bonus" damage.

I'd quibble with the wording of your point about the armor proficiency... for it to be useful in most situations, you'd literally have to be able to don the armor instantly upon casting the spell, which of course you can't. Anyway, the end result is the same, i.e. the alleged granting of armor proficiency doesn't actually do anything for you. It's true that a high-level War Wizard's AC while concentrating on a spell still won't be bad... assuming a 14 DEX, 13 Mage Armor + 2 DEX + 2 Durable Magic = 17 AC all the time, or 19 when using Arcane Deflection. (And the Arcane Deflection reaction isn't much of a cost if you can't cast spells anyway. Do note that it will only deflect one attack per round, unlike the shield spell.) 17 or even 19 isn't exactly unhittable either, though. Really, you'd be better off being an archer while transformed, even though I'm sure that isn't most peoples' vision of it. But you'd still get advantage, Extra Attack, and bonus damage, and you'd usually be in less danger of losing the spell, which can be bad news even beyond the possibility of not getting much out of a 6th-level slot.

It seems like the twist OP is introducing is to twin the spell to a mount. It's a cool visual to be sure, your hulked-up pegasus, but... is it doing much for you? I suppose it shouldn't be an obstacle to make it an uncontrolled mount (required to have it attack in the first place), since it's intelligent and you can telepathically communicate with it. And it'll have a lot of effective HP. Not much motivation for opponents to target it, though -- even with the extra attack, it's averaging ~12 DPR vs. AC 17.

If you're starting at 10th level or something, and you want to give this concept a go, then sure, go nuts. If you're starting around 1st level, really think about whether you want to devote dozens of hours of gameplay towards the goal of eventually being able to do this. I suspect it won't be as fun as it sounds like. It's basically the overly convoluted way to make a gish, which is something you can easily have as an always-on thing in Tier 1, rather than a rarely-on thing starting in Tier 3.

[Eldariel]

Tenser's is fine for archers because there are very few ways to buff archery and Tenser's does it well. But yeah, you're right, normal Wizard is probably not in the market. Still, the buffs are substantial enough to make it worth considering if you e.g. need to kill a target with high levels of magic immunity or similar.

[Kane0]

Its a 6th level spell... why not swift quiver or haste or a supporting blast like storm sphere?

[Eldariel]

Its a 6th level spell... why not swift quiver or haste or a supporting blast like storm sphere?

Haste actually combines incredibly well with Tenser's (on level 13 with Simulacrum, Haste + Tenser's is about the maximum archery output you can get). Swift Quiver...well, if you're a Bard you might have the option though Swift Quiver + Haste is worse than Tenser's + Haste by a fair margin.

As for supporting spells, the whole point of an archer is to fight at a long range (Longbow range max is 600'). What's even the point of using a Longbow if the combat range is close enough that Storm Sphere actually does something? Though it should outdamage Storm Sphere fairly reliably.

[Kane0]

What's even the point of using a Longbow if the combat range is close enough that Storm Sphere actually does something?

Probably a question best asked to your party.

[Selion]

Yeah, basically. Also, if you're an optimized 11th-level Wizard, there's a great chance that you either already have War Caster/CON save proficiency or are about to get it. Also, if you can't pre-cast the spell before the fight starts, it's using up that critical first action. (I suppose it at least has a 10-minute duration, so perhaps could last through multiple fights, if they occur in quick succession and if you don't lose concentration.)

I'd quibble with the wording of your point about the armor proficiency... for it to be useful in most situations, you'd literally have to be able to don the armor instantly upon casting the spell, which of course you can't. Anyway, the end result is the same, i.e. the alleged granting of armor proficiency doesn't actually do anything for you. It's true that a high-level War Wizard's AC while concentrating on a spell still won't be bad... assuming a 14 DEX, 13 Mage Armor + 2 DEX + 2 Durable Magic = 17 AC all the time, or 19 when using Arcane Deflection. (And the Arcane Deflection reaction isn't much of a cost if you can't cast spells anyway. Do note that it will only deflect one attack per round, unlike the shield spell). 17 or even 19 isn't exactly unhittable either, though. Really, you'd be better off being an archer while transformed, even though I'm sure that isn't most peoples' vision of it. But you'd still get advantage, Extra Attack, and bonus damage, and you'd usually be in less danger of losing the spell, which can be bad news even beyond the possibility of not getting much out of a 6th-level slot.

It seems like the twist OP is introducing is to twin the spell to a mount. It's a cool visual to be sure, your hulked-up pegasus, but... is it doing much for you? I suppose it shouldn't be an obstacle to make it an uncontrolled mount (required to have it attack in the first place), since it's intelligent and you can telepathically communicate with it. And it'll have a lot of effective HP. Not much motivation for opponents to target it, though -- even with the extra attack, it's averaging ~12 DPR vs. AC 17.

If you're starting at 10th level or something, and you want to give this concept a go, then sure, go nuts. If you're starting around 1st level, really think about whether you want to devote dozens of hours of gameplay towards the goal of eventually being able to do this. I suspect it won't be as fun as it sounds like. It's basically the overly convoluted way to make a gish, which is something you can easily have as an always-on thing in Tier 1, rather than a rarely-on thing starting in Tier 3.

LOL, ok, it's all true :D
i'm already in the gish way, with two fighter levels, and selecting spells that fits the war wizard concept (evocations, wall, summons, while i'm forfeiting illusions and mind tricks,which IMHO, while effective, dont' fit the character theme).
This would not be my main tactic, which will still be crowd control/debuff/aoe dmg, i wanted to use it for fun in some dramatic situations, then i realized the mount addiction to it.
I was tempted by Tenser Transformation because everything in the war wizard theme screams synergy with it, arcane deflection comes without price, +2 AC on concentrating, some (little) bonus dmg coming from others class features... BTW the moment this supposed (anti)combo comes in line a force-cage/maze/whatever would have solved the fight the first turn without other concerns.

What will likely happen:
i'll keep playing as a naturally bulky wizard with the action surge icing on the cake, then sometimes around level 13-14 i'll use TT once, deliver a few beating in meele, and when i'll have the ability to summon a griffin (at the end of the campaign, if we ever reach that point), i'll likely use my 9th level slot for something else, unless i'd pass a full day without needing that slot, and then a free steed would be visually nice to have

[RSP]

What will likely happen:
i'll keep playing as a naturally bulky wizard with the action surge icing on the cake, then sometimes around level 13-14 i'll use TT once, deliver a few beating in meele, and when i'll have the ability to summon a griffin (at the end of the campaign, if we ever reach that point), i'll likely use my 9th level slot for something else, unless i'd pass a full day without needing that slot, and then a free steed would be visually nice to have

Having fun with a playstyle > optimization.

Don’t worry about what others think is more optimized: if you enjoy playing the Wizard who TT’s, go for it.

With the occasional day+ of downtime, you can regularly have a steed and Contingencies to help with the theme.