What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

[Jay R]

I am about to start running a 3.5e game for the first time. I've been a DM off-and-on since the 1970s, but I'm fairly new to 3.5e, and don't have a lot of systems mastery beyond the characters I've played. So you'll probably see several threads like this over the next few months.

I need a NPC lord who started out as a martial (probably Fighter), but after a few levels, he became a ruler. For the last twenty years he's been the lord of a large region, and has taken whatever class would be best for being able to rule. He is Lord Angmar.

What class (or combination of classes) would that be?

Yes, I know he could be an Aristocrat. But I don't see him as having an NPC class. I want something less bland. If a big battle comes, he will be in the thick of it, and should have a good build for that.

The world is fairly low level at present. Civilizations have grown and died many times. There are waves of Chaos (or something) that come by every few hundred years, releasing far more monsters into this plane, and then civilization is under siege, beaten back, and sometimes destroyed altogether. [This explains why there are so many ruins to explore.]

The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points.

Theoretically, Lord Angmar is the governor of a far-flung province on the outskirts of the empire. Theoretically, he is in fealty to the Emperor, and serves at the Emperor's pleasure, but in truth, he hasn't heard from the capital in twenty years, and likes it that way. So he has pretty much supreme power.

He is well-intentioned, and wants to serve his province well. He sends troops to villagers when they call for aid, but that hasn't happened much lately.

My intent is for Angmar to represent an establishment figure that is decent, fair, but not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles. He will support the PCs after the fact, but really doesn't expect to see the ogres, giants, and other monsters that will soon be coming.

So while he started as a martial type, he's been focused on governing, not battles.

I assume that he is about 8th level or so, and thus the highest-level NPC around. I have him pegged as about 4th level Fighter and then 4 levels of something that helps him rule.

So what is that class?

[RandomPeasant]

Most of the powers that help you rule are magic, and generally fairly high-level magic. Cleric is probably the best bet, especially if you're willing to shuffle him to Fighter 3/Cleric 5 for plant growth (the single most strategically-impactful low-level spell). But having healing magic and zone of truth is probably the most you can pull off at that level, plus Diplomacy as a class skill.

[Jervis]

What he said basically. I’m biased towards this admittedly but cleric is great for a ruler.
-High wisdom is a requirement and you also benefit from high charisma
-Automatic sign that a god has your back
-Plant growth and healing spells as well as the ability to pull food and water out of thin air
-Can get things like Guidance of the Avatar and Zone of Truth
-If you still want him to keep the martial them then plenty of PrCs let you do it and divine power exists

Baring that Paladin is thematic and bard is good for diplomancy.

[Zanos]

I think only having a few levels in a magic class limits the scope of powers you can bring to bear at a large scale. Personally I would think that a class that allows him to branch out into skill use would be a better fit, considering a supreme ruler is going to want to know when his advisors and diplomatic partners are misleading him(sense motive) and be able to convince people to work with him if he is somewhat benevolent(diplomacy). Spellcraft and knowledges are also useful to know that you aren't being BS'd. And half ranks probably aren't gonna cut it. A few levels in factotum would probably be good if he has decent int, so that he can branch out into useful skills and have a few inspiration points to add a decent bonus to his checks when necessary. It also won't hurt too much as far as direct combat goes since factotum is at least okay at that.

[Jervis]

I think only having a few levels in a magic class limits the scope of powers you can bring to bear at a large scale. Personally I would think that a class that allows him to branch out into skill use would be a better fit, considering a supreme ruler is going to want to know when his advisors and diplomatic partners are misleading him(sense motive) and be able to convince people to work with him if he is somewhat benevolent(diplomacy). Spellcraft and knowledges are also useful to know that you aren't being BS'd. And half ranks probably aren't gonna cut it. A few levels in factotum would probably be good if he has decent int, so that he can branch out into useful skills and have a few inspiration points to add a decent bonus to his checks when necessary. It also won't hurt too much as far as direct combat goes since factotum is at least okay at that.

Just make sure to take Improved Paranoia

[Thunder999]

Even with the fighter levels I'd be tempted by magic, 4 levels with better class skills and a few extra ranks/level isn't going to do much, and neither are most martial options.

Cleric is probably the best bet for reasons stated above, though you won't do better than 2nd level spells.

[Dimers]

Marshal is a much better fit for a ruler than Fighter is, and wouldn't be a terrible choice for all 8 levels. Wade into mass battles, yep; good social skills, yep; and at the same time, "not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles", yep.

[Palanan]

Cleric was my first thought as well. Even if you only get second-level spells, that still brings Zone of Truth, which would be exceptionally useful to a ruler.

That said, paladin might be a solid alternative to a fighter/cleric portmanteau, perhaps a paladin who feels he can best serve his cause by ruling justly and providing a stable environment for his people. The paladin’s spell progression would still fit with your idea of the character being essentially martial for the first four levels—and if he’s perhaps a little too comfortable with the status quo, and slow to understand new developments, that could make for some interesting RP with the party.

[Biggus]

There's the Noble class from Dragonlance Campaign setting, it's kind of like Aristocrat but made into a PC class. It says you have to be born into it, but if you're the DM you don't have to abide by that obviously.

If that's no good I think Dimers' suggestion of Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) makes the most sense, it's basically "military leader: the class".

[RandomPeasant]

Marshal is a much better fit for a ruler than Fighter is, and wouldn't be a terrible choice for all 8 levels. Wade into mass battles, yep; good social skills, yep; and at the same time, "not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles", yep.

A single Marshal isn't really that great on a battlefield. The aura only goes out 60ft, meaning you can't really effect much of the battle, even if you do think it's a good idea to have your head of state wade into the fray. That said, Motivate Charisma is a pretty nice, so some kind of Fighter/Marshal/Cleric mashup might be good.

[Gavinfoxx]

"So, what are the best leader classes? Generally, the Marshal, the Bard, the Archivist, the Cloistered Cleric, the Crusader, and the Warblade."

From: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9963.0

[Jervis]

From: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9963.0

No Sha’ir? SMHing my head

[AvatarVecna]

Cleric. Some of the most bang for your buck, Wisdom dependent so that can drive your good decisions, it gets Diplomacy as a class skill, it could get all knowledge skills in-class via Cloistered Cleric, and you can make yourself a "cleric of a cause", to where your power is literally derived from your devotion to serving the greater good of the people you rule over.

[Ramza00]

Fighter 4/Feat Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would be a more well rounded savant with more feats if we are only doing 8th level. Aristocratic Kings can have some Jack of the Trade energy.

Edit: Fighter 4/Monk 2/Feat Rogue 2

Edit: if the king is an inheritor position this would be totally natural where the noble would be a hostage / guest called "fostering." Besides being a hostage if necessary it also was important to have the child be trained in various arts and to have a good time creating future bonds to build alliances and marriages with. In sum a perfect opportunity to multiclass, like family B encouraged Feat Rogue and other skills over martial mastery, likewise the church / monks help awakened the inner / psionic potential of the person via study and meditation.

[Maat Mons]

I’d say make him a Cleric 8, but say he used to be a Fighter 4. With the Militia feat for proficiency in all martial weapons, Cleric 8 can do everything Fighter 4 can, plus some extra. Someone who can do everything a Fighter 4 can, plus some extra seems like a great representation of someone who was once a Fighter 4, but has since branched out.

[Jervis]

I’d say make him a Cleric 8, but say he used to be a Fighter 4. With the Militia feat for proficiency in all martial weapons, Cleric 8 can do everything Fighter 4 can, plus some extra. Someone who can do everything a Fighter 4 can, plus some extra seems like a great representation of someone who was once a Fighter 4, but has since branched out.

At that point if you’re just going for power… there’s always Ur-Priest

[redking]

Maybe factotum. You can get all the skills. Maybe even into chameleon. The leader character can appear to be a fighter, or wizard or cleric without being a 9th level casting powerhouse.

[Batcathat]

Depending on the culture, cleric (or similar) might also be good for fluff reasons. If it's a "divine right to rule" type thing, I think it makes sense for the king to have a close connection to the deity that basically put him on the throne.

[Telonius]

A multiclassed Monk could be a good class for a mundane noble that needs to stay alive. Take maybe two levels of Marshal for his military / battle leader career, and for getting all of the Knowledge skills. Then, Monk for the rest.

Monks aren't very effective, but they're really obnoxious to kill. High saves, HP isn't terrible (equal to Marshal), and Wholeness of Body can tide him over until he gets to a Cleric. If an assassin catches him in his pajamas, he's still got a decent AC. Depending on feats, he could deflect arrows. If somebody gets cute and tries to throw him out a window, he's got Slow Fall. At higher levels, he's not concerned with disease or poison, gets Spell Resistance and Evasion. If the situation gets really terrible, they are great at running away.

[lylsyly]

A good leader should have good diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate, and bluff skills, keep these maxed.

Human Bonus Feat = Able Learner to buy cross class skills at 1 for 1
Factotum 1 for every skill in the game and your max skill ranks = your ECL+3 even for cross class skills
Fighter 2 for weapon and armor proficiencies
Cloistered Cleric 6 for third level spells and the extra skill points
Leadership feat at level 9 to get his right hand man, personal guard and personal staff.

32 point buy = STR 12, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 16 He’s been sitting on a throne with his head in books for the last 20 years ;-)

Just my 2 coppers!

[Barstro]

If the character did not come from a line of rulers, then he needs high charisma, if not a charisma based class.

Fighters, even excellent ones, do not become kings; they are used by kings. Wizards become court magicians. Clerics and priests can become leaders in the church without charisma because the church has structure. If you do not have charisma, you need a different logical way to have risen to the top (coming from royal blood, so the masses feel compelled to follow).

It takes charisma to have people want to follow you. It takes wisdom to do the right things. After that, it just takes surrounding yourself with the best staff and advisors.

I agree with most prior posts for people who would be NEAR the top, or part of a tribunal/council. Maybe even as a ruler who has a much more charismatic right hand man. But if you are making someone who rose up from obscurity and now leads a people on his own, there needs to be a reason for people to follow him that is greater than a reason for him to work for someone more charismatic than him.

Unless, of course, you want fear/intimidation instead of love/loyalty to retain power. But those are charisma checks as well.

[Yogibear41]

Paladin is martial with lots of social skills for governing. Also fighter 4/Marshal 4 could work. You could maybe even use urban ranger. Really it depends on how powerful you want him to be.

[Jay R]

You’ve all given me useful information, and I know more about the game than I did. Thank you.

But I also see that I failed to communicate what I’m looking for. This is my fault, not yours; I led you astray.

Angmar was purely a Fighter for a while, not training to eventually become a leader. Then, having reached higher rank in the army, he wound up a governor, and had to learn about running a province.

Neither half is about leading in battle. So spending his whole career as a Noble or Marshal just doesn’t work.

As a Fighter, he was not looking ahead to ruling a province. He accidentally found himself in charge of the province when he slew the old governor during a minor rebellion against the empire.

And his focus is now his province, not magic, music, or a god, so wizard, bard, or cleric are not right for the second half. [No, I don't like the concept of a cleric to a "cause".] Besides, the PCs are starting at first level, and will meet him no later than second level. I don’t want him to have greater caster skills than they do. And he can’t be a Paladin, who wouldn’t refuse to help the party when I want them to face something alone.

[There has been (mostly) peace and prosperity for a long time, so there have not been many opportunities to gain experience points. By the time the PCs reach levels 6-9, they will be significant heroes of the area.]

I’m looking for a class that’s primarily about rulership. It should include Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills. He’s lived in a time of prosperity and peace. There have been a few small skirmishes or raids (and one minor rebeliion), but no major wars.

He should not be ready to deal with the kinds of problems that PCs handle. Monsters are about to start coming out of the wilderness (and other planes). He’s background support when necessary, and exposition, but not a replacement for PCs. Most especially, when something comes up that a 3rd level party needs to handle, I don’t want him and a few troops to be able to put it down easily.

If (when) a major war breaks out, he will lead his troops and do his best, but he shouldn’t be good enough that the PCs aren’t needed. His troops will face the rampaging orcs, while the PCs attack enemy casters or trolls. So I want a good build for fighting, not a great one.

He has a broken build on purpose – split into two different purposes. No PC would do this, because we plan our builds carefully in advance. We’re all focused on excellent builds. That’s why I’m having trouble creating a competent but inefficient build.

He might be a Fighter 4 / Marshal 4. He would usually have a minor aura of CHA, INT, or WIS working. But he’d only know two minor auras; they would need to be Motivate CHA and Motivate either WIS or INT. And major auras have no effect on day-to-day running a province.

Possibly Fighter 4 / Factotum 4, but the only useful Factotum ability for day-to-day peacetime rulership is Cunning Knowledge. Besides, can he even use that when he is not in an “encounter”? [“At the beginning of each encounter, he gains a number of inspiration points determined by his level.” (Emphasis added)] Yes, dealing with ambassadors is an encounter, but researching flood plains or local history is not. Arcane Dilettante also has a little value, mostly with Comprehend Language. But really, a 4th level Factotum is useful as an adventurer, but he's not a good peacetime ruler.

[We're so used to planning a complete build that it's sometimes hard to remember that this NPC probably isn't going to level up more than once.].

So thank you for helping me identify what I really need. Now that I have explained it better, is there a class that can help him rule?

[ciopo]

Why not one of the prestige classes the expand/include leadership? Legendary leader form heroes of battle and warmaster from sword and fist seems the most germane to the situation, with appropriate adapted fluff

[Gavinfoxx]

You’ve all given me useful information, and I know more about the game than I did. Thank you.

But I also see that I failed to communicate what I’m looking for. This is my fault, not yours; I led you astray.

The easiest thing to do is allow him to retrain into the class that is both the overt fighter replacement class AND an amazing leader: Warblade. Please read the handbook I linked to as to why the Fighter is one of the worst leaders in the entire game.

[Melcar]

I am about to start running a 3.5e game for the first time. I've been a DM off-and-on since the 1970s, but I'm fairly new to 3.5e, and don't have a lot of systems mastery beyond the characters I've played. So you'll probably see several threads like this over the next few months.

I need a NPC lord who started out as a martial (probably Fighter), but after a few levels, he became a ruler. For the last twenty years he's been the lord of a large region, and has taken whatever class would be best for being able to rule. He is Lord Angmar.

What class (or combination of classes) would that be?

Yes, I know he could be an Aristocrat. But I don't see him as having an NPC class. I want something less bland. If a big battle comes, he will be in the thick of it, and should have a good build for that.

The world is fairly low level at present. Civilizations have grown and died many times. There are waves of Chaos (or something) that come by every few hundred years, releasing far more monsters into this plane, and then civilization is under siege, beaten back, and sometimes destroyed altogether. [This explains why there are so many ruins to explore.]

The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points.

Theoretically, Lord Angmar is the governor of a far-flung province on the outskirts of the empire. Theoretically, he is in fealty to the Emperor, and serves at the Emperor's pleasure, but in truth, he hasn't heard from the capital in twenty years, and likes it that way. So he has pretty much supreme power.

He is well-intentioned, and wants to serve his province well. He sends troops to villagers when they call for aid, but that hasn't happened much lately.

My intent is for Angmar to represent an establishment figure that is decent, fair, but not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles. He will support the PCs after the fact, but really doesn't expect to see the ogres, giants, and other monsters that will soon be coming.

So while he started as a martial type, he's been focused on governing, not battles.

I assume that he is about 8th level or so, and thus the highest-level NPC around. I have him pegged as about 4th level Fighter and then 4 levels of something that helps him rule.

So what is that class?

I would say that a few levels of Marshal can work well. You essentially get double your charisma bonus to certain skills, like bluff, diplomacy, gather information... etc. that can be very effective. Boyond that I would say Legendary Tactician from Dragon Lance Campaign Settings is a really cool and effective class for minionmancy - if that is the way the ruler wants to go. I also think the fluff is super cool!

So, in summery, Marshal and Legendary Tactician gives a lot of bonusses to social skills and leadership respectfully!

[lylsyly]

You could keep it real simple. Use Generic Warrior (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) from UA. You get to choose any 6 skills as class skills and make sure his INT is at least 14 to get the four points you need to keep those 4 skills maxed.

Other than that the easiest is probably the fighter/factotum combo.

[Ramza00]

4 levels of a modified Bardic Sage.


Bardic Sage is an Int based Bard which has weaker durations bardic music and in return gets 1 extra spell known of each spell level yet that bonus spell known spell must be divination based. Also it is Int based for spell dcs and bonus spells. Lastly you have a poor fort and reflex save but keep the good will.


One can also do three more swaps.

Lore Song, twice a day at 4th level you can get an insight bonus to 1 attack, save, ability check, or skill check. In return no Lore Song. This is an immediate action.
Healing Hymm, lose Fascinate but you and any healing magic adds both the spells caster level and your perform ranks to the caster level until you hit the spell max. Thus if someone cast cure moderate wounds the max healing is 2d8+10 thus a 5th level cleric with you having 5 ranks of perform would hit the maximum, likewise a 3rd level cleric and 7 ranks in perform.
Inspire Awe, your enemies is less effective in combat and is shaken if it fails a will save against your perform rank. In response you lose inspire courage. Since it is a skill check it is easy to optimise around. Also you can do fear stacking like the Dreadful Wrath regional feat.


In sum you are a non fun and merry bard but the serious and gruff one who learned all his skills in a late to life career change. You started studying books, hand to hand people skills, and so on to be a reluctant leader to your people.

In 3.5 Bard at 4th level you would have bard 2 2nd level spells and 3 3rd level spells, plus 2 more divination spells if one goes Bardic Sage. That is easy to fill with spells that are not magic flavored but instead modifying the environment. For example the 1st level improvisation gives you a floating pool of luck points (make sure to take practiced spellcaster bard.). Instant of Power from Forge of War gives you an immediate action 1st level buff spell that works for almost everything not in combat but also in combat.. Stay the Hand is an immediate action spell that causes the enemy to doubt and possibly not attack / target you with a spell.

Bladeweave is a 2nd level swift cast bard spell that makes a melee bard have a chance to daze an enemy with a weapon strike. Dimension Leap is a short range teleport. Suggestion makes sense for a leader. Elation is another every ally in combat is more effective. Detect Thoughts is a divination spell which helps the leader read the room.

As you can easily see one can make a Bard who does not feel like a Bard but feels like a leader of men who is grumpy. He is not singing songs, and any performance he does is a different perform skill like perform skill oratory / rhetoric who bolsters the troops.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

"Fighter" represents the skill set of someone who is mostly just good at stabbing and not much else. By contrast, this fellow seems like a political survivor who's managed to rise above his station multiple times and become the supreme ruler of a region without even having to fight the nominal central authority. The requirements are then "martial prowess," "no magic/music/etc," and most importantly, "skilled enough to pull that off without magic/music/etc."

To that end I'd focus on classes who provide both skills and martial prowess. Martial (feat) Rogue 2/Warblade 6 taking Able Learner at level 1 works. Plenty of martial prowess, and enough skills (with some INT focus) to max out the key political skills of Sense Motive/Diplomacy/Bluff and have enough points to spread across intimidate/knowledges/spot/listen and so on. He could specialize in White Raven in combat, leading his personal retinue. He's also relatively well-equipped to fend off assassination attempts, what with improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and access to diamond mind maneuvers that replace saves with concentration checks.

[wilphe]

Depends on how your world is structured, but if you in a Human dominated land than a dip into Ranger with Favoured Enemy: Human

Not as powerful as other options but you aren't going for raw power and is easy to keep track of

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember: the Fighter class is a low powered, laser-focused, 'specific combat technique specialist', suitable primarily to be a trainer in niche combat techniques in, for example, a gladiator or armed martial arts school, but not the actual gladiator themselves, or the leader of the gladiator school or martial arts school, nor are they suitable to be an actual soldier or adventurer or general or watchman or anything else like that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you, you basically need to be a powerful spellcaster yourself; it just doesn't make any kind of sense for the person in charge not to be, since casters are easily the most powerful people in any 3.5 setting, and a mid to high level one can easily take over entire countries without too much trouble.

So if the guy isn't a dedicated spellcaster, he's the pawn of someone who is, no matter his own thoughts on the subject.

[Batcathat]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you, you basically need to be a powerful spellcaster yourself; it just doesn't make any kind of sense for the person in charge not to be, since casters are easily the most powerful people in any 3.5 setting, and a mid to high level one can easily take over entire countries without too much trouble.

So if the guy isn't a dedicated spellcaster, he's the pawn of someone who is.

I imagine kings in D&D would have the magical equivalent of Secret Service agents to look out for things like that. Not that a clever or powerful enough caster couldn't overcome that (and there's always the risk of the guards themselves conspiring against the king), but I'm not sure the king has to be a spellcaster anymore than a real life president have to be able to overpower assassins personally.

[Maat Mons]

If you’re maintaining that the order of build choices must correspond to the chronology of his backstory, you could have a problem with ability scores. If this guy spent his youth training to be a Fighter with no concern for other pursuits, he’d put all his points in Strength and Constitution, while dumping Charisma. At level 8, he would have realized he needs charisma for leading, but investing that ability increase only brings him up to 9 Cha. You said he got up to Fighter 4 before he gained any political power, so he’s missed the chance to put that ability increase in Charisma.

I’ll second the suggestion of Feat Rogue. That’s actually the class I think all town guards should have. Listen and Spot are necessary to notice thieves skulking around. Sense Motive is necessary to determine if people are lying to you. Gather Information is what you roll to question bystanders. And Intimidate helps you convince people to surrender, so you don’t have beat every suspect unconscious. Fighter doesn’t have most of those as class skills, and only gets 2+Int skill points anyway. Really, the Fighter class is only suited to putting swords into people, not keeping watch, or organizing a platoon, or any of the other non-stabby things you’d want your armed men doing.

[Gavinfoxx]

I’ll second the suggestion of Feat Rogue. That’s actually the class I think all town guards should have.

I prefer heavily ACFed Ranger. Something like one of these two:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1512349
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1245657

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
I’m looking for a class that’s primarily about rulership. It should include Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills.

I think your best match is the Noble from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which Biggus mentioned earlier. The Noble has all the class skills you indicated, plus Inspire Confidence and an ability called Coordinate, which gives a minor boost to other peoples’ checks, but only out of combat. It’s exactly the sort of ability you’d expect a thoughtful ruler to have.

The noble also has Favor checks, which he can use to get information or materials from his network of contacts, which in this case could be other nobles or leading figures in his province. Again, this is exactly the sort of thing a ruler would cultivate.

The Noble is non-magical, non-flashy, and very much at home working within stable power structures, which seems to be exactly where your accidental governor is standing.

[Berenger]

I guess the optimal ruler is some sort of high level primary caster, but that's kind of boring because it is the answer to everything.

For Lord Angmar, if restricted to core classes, I'd go with Rogue and trade away the Sneak Attack for Fighter Bonus Feats so he can stay relevant as a fighter a bit longer. Diplomacy, Knowledge (Local), Perform (Oratory) and Sense Motive should be the most important skills for a noble. Bluff, Forgery (to detect forgeries) and Intimidate might also come in handy at times. After a few levels, you can max out some of these and afford to throw a few spare skill points towards cross-class ranks in Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty).

Together, these skills should enable a lord to have a firm grasp on the laws, customs and political landscape of the land, make well-informed diplomatic and military decisions, negotiate with the king and higher nobles, inspire soldiers on a battlefield, have a chance to root out liars and conspirators, get unruly subordinates to fall in line and pass reasonably just and fair judgements in court (if so inclined).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I imagine kings in D&D would have the magical equivalent of Secret Service agents to look out for things like that. Not that a clever or powerful enough caster couldn't overcome that (and there's always the risk of the guards themselves conspiring against the king), but I'm not sure the king has to be a spellcaster anymore than a real life president have to be able to overpower assassins personally.Which is more powerful, twenty 12th level wizards and a 20th level warrior NPC class with feats fighter or a single 20th level wizard?

[Jervis]

Which is more powerful, twenty 12th level wizards and a 20th level warrior NPC class with feats fighter or a single 20th level wizard?

Depends, can one of those wizards cast anti magic field?

[Lhurgyof]

I think as far as prestige classes go, you can look into exemplar. It's out of his reach currently without cheesing skill ranks, but I think it would fit a character such as this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depends, can one of those wizards cast anti magic field?Even if they can, that would hardly help. By that level, there are lots of ways for a wizard to completely ignore AMFs, even while attacking from a completely different plane of existence.

[Zanos]

Which is more powerful, twenty 12th level wizards and a 20th level warrior NPC class with feats fighter or a single 20th level wizard?
While I agree, that's not what we're talking about. A 4th level wizard doesn't have substantially greater defenses against charm person than a 4th level fighter, other than a marginally better base will save bonus.

[InvisibleBison]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you

How exactly is charm person, which merely makes the person think of you as their friend, going to let a wizard make the king their puppet? I don't know about you, but I don't automatically go along with everything my friends suggest. You're not doing your point (which I largely agree with, incidentally) any favors with this sort of hyperbole.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How exactly is charm person, which merely makes the person think of you as their friend, going to let a wizard make the king their puppet? I don't know about you, but I don't automatically go along with everything my friends suggest. You're not doing your point (which I largely agree with, incidentally) any favors with this sort of hyperbole.It's a way to wriggle one's way in. If the king sees you as a trusted friend, that's a lot closer than a perfect stranger would get, which is an opportunity for all kinds of things. Fighters aren't really known for mental stats, Will saves, or social skills, and all wizards need are Int and Con (and sorcerers have high Cha and social skills as class skills; clerics have social skills and good reason for decent Cha; etc). Adding extra Wis and Cha on them is much easier than it is on a fighter, making the latter even more vulnerable.

Basically, even a 1st level wizard has a better than decent chance of cozying up to a high level fighter in a highly-placed political position, and unless the fighter has spellcasters of his own (which could easily take over themselves, if they so wanted; why wouldn't they want to be the power behind the throne, given how easy it would be?), even that low-level wizard can cause all sorts of problems that a spellcaster wouldn't really have issues with.

[Jay R]

I know this post is long. I’ve been re-writing it all day, as new posts came in with new ideas. There may be inconsistencies here. I’ve changed my mind based on your advice several times today.

Everybody, thank you for all your help. I’m learning a lot, even from the people whose ideas don’t match what I’m trying to do.

Evidently, I’m still not communicating to everyone. I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar a more effective leader in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall -- not in battle.

None of the Warblade’s abilities have any use except during a battle. And it doesn’t have either Bluff or Sense Motive as class skills. A Legendary Tactician has the skills I need, but its only class feature of any value when the swords are sheathed is the bonus to Leadership.

He can’t take Legendary Leader or Warmaster until after he is sixth level, because he needs to have the Leadership feat first. And Legendary Leader’s only real value is Legendary Reputation; his other class features are for battle only.

A Warmaster also requires 5 ranks of Diplomacy, which is cross-class for Fighters.

Generic Warrior is an interesting idea, but at first level, when he chose his skills, he would have chosen fighting-oriented ones, not ruling-oriented ones.

To be a Noble, you have to start life that way. Angmar didn’t.

Some people have pointed out, correctly, that I'm the DM and can relax the entry requirements if I choose. That's true, but it doesn't seem reasonable to stretch the rules for what is intended to be a non-optimal build.

Gavinfoxx, I know that Fighter is a lousy base for a leader. That’s actually the point. When he was a Fighter, he wasn’t intending to be a leader; he was focused on combat skills. Only after he found himself a governor did he start trying to build rulership skills. Fighter is the basic fighting class, which is all he was until he found himself ruling.

But the people suggesting Feat Rogue have just about convinced me. If he started as a town guard, he would likely choose Intimidate, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and maybe even a couple of levels of Diplomacy. I hate to give up the hit points, but you can’t have everything. And it seems weird to have a Rogue whose lowest ability score is DEX, but he’s not moving silently, opening locks, picking pockets, or escaping.

Still, hit points are important for a front-line fighter, and I may split the difference. With an INT and CON of 14, the fourth level Angmar could be:

Fighter 4: 28 skill points, 37.5 expected hit points, three bonus feats.
Feat Rogue 4: 70 skill points, 26 expected hit points, three bonus feats.
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2: 58 skill points, 31 expected hit points, four bonus feats.

[In my game, the first level hit points are at maximum, and other levels are at least half value, so a Fighter gets at least 5, and a Rogue gets at least 3. The average for a d10 with this minimum is 6.5, and the average of a d6 is 4.]

Fighter 4 is clearly out. So his first two levels will be Feat Rogue. Switching to Fighter for the next 2 gets him roughly 5 more hit points and another bonus feat, at a cost of 12 skill points (& uncanny dodge). And it's closer to the original concept. Hmmmm…

A little more detail: A governor at the very edge of a far-flung empire was rising up against an ineffective emperor. A military unit was sent to deal with it. Their orders were to put down the rebellion and take charge. Most of the fighting happened after they were already in the keep, and spilled into the throne room with the governor himself. Angmar was newly promoted to lieutenant, 2nd or 3rd in command, nut with no real experience yet as one of the leaders. When he saw his superiors fall, he was close enough to the governor to run forward and slay him. Then he called out, “Hold! He will never pay you again.”

He was standing over the governor’s body with a bloody sword. The dead governor’s guards looked around, unsure what to do. Angmar called out again, “But I will. I am the new governor. Swear that you did not support his treason, and that you will loyally serve me and the emperor, and you will be forgiven, and may continue as my second company of guards.” [Obviously the unit he came with would be the first corps.] They were outnumbered, and frankly, they didn’t care who ruled. They all swore.

Angmar had numerical superiority in the throne room, but not in the courtyard, and claiming to be the new governor was the only way he could think of to win the battle. He was in command of his unit now anyway, so it stood. He walked out on the balcony, announced to the courtyard that the old governor was dead, and basically repeated his offer – with the captain of the old governor’s guard at his side. Angmar became the new governor, and since the emperor was distracted, it was allowed to stand.

[In fact, the rebellion was far more widespread than they knew, and continued for years. This province hasn’t heard from the empire for years, and does not know that the emperor is dead, and the center of the empire is in the middle of a five-way civil war from five different claimants to the throne. By design, it will have no impact on the PCs’ adventures. Angmar is essentially all the government there is. I have a somewhat competent but average leader in place for the same reason that Cornelius Fudge was the Minister of Magic in Harry Potter – so the PCs will get all the adventures.]

Again, I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar more effective in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall.

The idea of a bard based on inspiring oratory is an interesting one. I’ll consider that. But his Perform skill would be low, since he only started acquiring it at fifth level. And I'm leery about losing Fort save and more hit points.

He will certainly have at least Marshal 1. The best features (for Angmar) of the first four levels of Marshal are on level 1: double CHA bonus plus skill focus (Diplomacy). Clearly, he needs that first. After that, I’m thinking either 3 more levels of Marshal or Bardic Sage 3 with Perform (inspiring oratory).

Reminder: There has been (mostly) peace and prosperity for a long time, so there have not been many opportunities to gain experience points. By the time the PCs reach levels 6-9, they will be significant heroes of the area. Compared to most 3.5 games, it’s a very low-powered world – sufficiently so that a 4th level could plausibly take over a province and hold it. There may be a very high level wizard out there somewhere, but there aren’t many, and they are not that active now.

Note also that a Marshal's will save is just as good as a wizard's.

Thanks again for all your help. Even if I don’t take your ideas now, they may help me build other NPCs.

[Gavinfoxx]

Gavinfoxx, I know that Fighter is a lousy base for a leader. That’s actually the point. When he was a Fighter, he wasn’t intending to be a leader; he was focused on combat skills. Only after he found himself a governor did he start trying to build rulership skills. Fighter is the basic fighting class, which is all he was until he found himself ruling.


What are your thoughts of Ranger with the ACF's I mentioned in those two links?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
Again, I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar more effective in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall.

At this point, it might be easier if you approached this in terms of what abilities you want, and then built something with those abilities.

I’ve read your OP and subsequent posts carefully, and in terms of classes the best possible fit I can think of is the Noble. The class description is quite specific that birth is not a prerequisite to be a Noble, at least not mechanically. But if it doesn’t feel right for you, then the question is what abilities do feel right?

If there aren’t any specific class abilities you’re looking for, then you might go for four levels in something that lets you take as many socially-oriented feats as possible. For instance, you might take the Education feat, which gives you all Knowledges as class skills and a +2 bonus on any two of them.

Other than that, I’m not sure if there is another class that emphasizes out-of-combat social interactions and kingdom-building, given the heavy emphasis in 3.5 mechanics on tactical encounters. Your best solution might be to choose the abilities you want and then design a four-level class or PrC to incorporate them.

[Gavinfoxx]

You realize, Jay R, that 3.5e begins to function better when you absolutely remove any concept of 'class as job' or 'you trained in this, and now you are a Fighter', or anything along those lines, and instead start thinking of them as collections of abilities that may or may not accurately model the concept for a specific character and what sorts of things they should be able to do?

This game is VERY VERY VERY poor at being beneficial to people who just want to pick up a level of something to get basic competency in that thing after training in something for a while. It does NOT model organic growth well AT ALL; it basically requires pre-planning a build.

[tiercel]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you, you basically need to be a powerful spellcaster yourself

Assuming that you don’t have a secret-spellcasting-service protection detail, or the possibility of a custom protection from <alignment> item (which seems like a pretty sensible thing for rulers to have, I dunno, enchanted bog-standard into the Official Circlet of Office in a world where 1st level mind magic exists), there’s always Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward. Just sayin’.

——

As for the problem of organic progression with D&D classes, I’d say in-story one way to handle this is to invoke retraining rules, so that past identity can still exist in the backstory but a somewhat-more-optimal-for-current-needs build can obtain in the present.

And I agree with Ramza00 that in general Bard is a pretty good choice in terms of giving the skills and a few nice relevant spells, and refluffing (especially Perform) is for yes: the stereotype of “you spoony bard” complete with hat-with-a-big-feather, lute, and goofy grin certainly doesn’t have to be what a bard is. (Heck, as just one example, I’d argue that while Gandalf is presented as a Wizard archetype, in D&D terms, Gandalf’s actual abilities in the Hobbit/LotR are —mostly offscreen “celestial” nature aside— arguably well modeled as a Bard.)

If this ruler isn’t so much a know-it-all as someone who’s had to pick up a lot on the fly, Bardic Knack ACF might fit well.

Heck, if once he became a ruler he hasn’t had to be on the battlefield much, arguably Inspire Awe ACF indeed might be a better fit than bog-standard Inspire Courage (intimidating oratory of Doom! Also see, literal Doomspeak [feat]). Also, if you’re concerned about Fort saves in particular, there’s Savage Bard variant (thematically fun together with Inspire Awe, but does limit him to Chaotic alignment).

Granted, the benefits of Bard Levels are better if at least some retraining is on the table.

[Jervis]

Just gonna say a single wizard level and he can qualify for Abjurant champion. Does that matter? No but it’s funny.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

None of the Warblade’s abilities have any use except during a battle.
Okay, but

When he was a Fighter, he wasn’t intending to be a leader; he was focused on combat skills.
The point of Warblade is that it replaces whatever Fighter is doing in the build while giving you more skill points. If there's no point of taking Warblade, neither is there a point in taking Fighter - which is fine! Maybe you just go Factotum 8 and ignore the SLAs, and that's half-decent martial prowess (+6 BaB, interesting combat abilities) while having excellent skill-based utility. Or maybe you get enough prowess from Ranger (possibly with some ACFs as suggested), and that's even better skill-wise than Warblade. Maybe throw in a level of Marshal to sacrifice a point of BaB for more skill pumping. But the main reason to take Fighter, for RP or other reasons, is that you need lots of fight-y feats to realize your concept. I don't see that here.

And it doesn’t have either Bluff or Sense Motive as class skills.
This is moot if you take Able Learner at level 1 and take Feat Rogue (or another class with those skills as class skills) at some point, preferably level 1.

[Ramza00]

Evidently, I’m still not communicating to everyone. I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar a more effective leader in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall -- not in battle.

Thanks again for all your help. Even if I don’t take your ideas now, they may help me build other NPCs.



And I agree with Ramza00 that in general Bard is a pretty good choice in terms of giving the skills and a few nice relevant spells, and refluffing (especially Perform) is for yes: the stereotype of “you spoony bard” complete with hat-with-a-big-feather, lute, and goofy grin certainly doesn’t have to be what a bard is. (Heck, as just one example, I’d argue that while Gandalf is presented as a Wizard archetype, in D&D terms, Gandalf’s actual abilities in the Hobbit/LotR are —mostly offscreen “celestial” nature aside— arguably well modeled as a Bard.)

If this ruler isn’t so much a know-it-all as someone who’s had to pick up a lot on the fly, Bardic Knack ACF might fit well.

Heck, if once he became a ruler he hasn’t had to be on the battlefield much, arguably Inspire Awe ACF indeed might be a better fit than bog-standard Inspire Courage (intimidating oratory of Doom! Also see, literal Doomspeak [feat]). Also, if you’re concerned about Fort saves in particular, there’s Savage Bard variant (thematically fun together with Inspire Awe, but does limit him to Chaotic alignment).

Granted, the benefits of Bard Levels are better if at least some retraining is on the table.

Some Bard Spells for their Skill and Save Bonuses, aka non combat utility.

3.5

Instant of Power 1st level, Immediate Action, All or You. You bestow a brief moment of power on your ally, granting a +4 enhancement bonus on his next attack roll, saving throw, or damage roll.
Improvisation, 1st level, Personal Buff, 1 Round per Level. You gain access to a floating "pool" of luck, which manifests as bonus points you can use as desired to improve your odds of success at various tasks. This bonus pool consists of 2 points per caster level, which you can spend as you like to improve attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks, although no single check can receive a bonus greater than one-half your caster level. You must declare any bonus point usage before the appropriate roll is made. Used points disappear from the pool, and any points remaining when the spell ends are wasted. These points count as luck bonuses for the purpose of stacking.
Heroism, 2nd level, Ally or You Buff, 10 min per level Buff, +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.


Pathfinder spells that can be adapted no change.


Tears to Wine 🍷, 1st level, Party Buff, 10 min per level. Creatures that drink the mead or wine created by this spell become sharp-witted and clear-minded, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus on all Intelligence– and Wisdom-based skill checks. This increases to a +5 bonus at caster level 9th, and to +10 (the maximum) at caster level 15th.
Moment of Greatness, 1st level, Party Buff, 1 min per level but it is individually dischargable. If the affected creature is benefiting from a morale bonus of any type, it can double that morale bonus on one roll or check, before making the roll. Stacks well with Heroism or Inspire Courage.
Timely Inspiration, 1st level, Immediate Action. All or You. Cast this spell when a creature fails an attack roll or skill check. The target gains a +1 competence bonus per five caster levels (maximum +3 bonus) on the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to make the failure a success, the roll succeeds.
Gallant Inspiration, 2nd level, Immediate Action. Ally or You. Cast this spell when a creature fails an attack roll or skill check. The creature gains a +2d4 competence bonus to the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to turn the failure into a success, the roll succeeds.


And like Tiercel was saying it does not need to be a bard as cheerful flavored, it can be perform oratory that is inspirational, or a Bard who does Perform Profanity where the leader is the grumpy Byronic Hero Scoundrel who curses the fates and his rotten luck and then suddenly the world turns around and he helps his people. Let’s make Han Solo into a King (if Solo started as a Guardsman and not a Scoundrel / Smuggler.)

Forgot about Savage Bard, guess you can mix Sage and Savage bard as well.
One last bit about Tears to Wine one can do that UA / SRD magical trait that is +1 CL for 1 Spell School -1 CL for everything else. That with Practiced Spellcaster will get you +9 to Transmutation and +7 to all other Schools thus allowing +5 to all Wis and Int Skills for non combat encounters. Your leader has Wine no let’s make it a nice glass of Earl Grey Tea, or perhaps Coffee and his mind clears being smarter, wiser, and greater perception.

[lylsyly]

@Jay R: Look it's your NPC. The only three base classes off the top of my head that have the skills you want are Factotum, Rogue and Bard. Perform: Oratory might look good but without Bardic music has no real mechanical use. You could still use Bard and ignore the spellcasting since you have made it clear you don't want it.

The thing about Fighter and Feat Rogue both is those bonus feats are supposed to come off the Fighter bonus feat list, none of which will help you grow as a leader.

A level of Marshall should definately be there for Motivate Charisma since it adds to 3 of the 4 skills you consider necessary.

You should start with a class that has all the skills you want at level 1 and take the able learner feat.
I would recommend Factotum 1 so that every skill in the game is max ranks = ECL+3.
Then Marshall 1 for Motivate Charisma and Skill Focus: Diplomacy.
After that it's all about skill points so use Feat Rogue (actually called Martial Rogue) for the 8 skill points per level, use the 4 bonus feats to emulate his previous martial prowess thus freeing up other feats for boosting leadership skills. Or use the retraining rules on those feats.

I would recommend taking it to level nine and giving him leadership at 9 to increase Cohort level (an Aristocrat may be a good choice for using the Aid Another action on his skill checks). It would also grant him a few more followers.

Bard (- spellcasting) is actually a solid choice as well. Bard has all the skills you want. Use Perform: Oratory and swap Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe. Bard 6 gives you both Fascinate and Suggestion, both thematically good for a ruler.

It's your NPC! It's not like you are going to hand your players a copy of his statblock ;-)

[Jay R]

What are your thoughts of Ranger with the ACF's I mentioned in those two links?

I think that your builds with multiple ACFs are a very clever use of the rules, to create a Ranger who doesn’t feel, act, or play like a ranger. The characters look like they would be effective, and fun to play. If somebody brought in a PC like that, I would have no objections.

But I want my NPCs to fit into the medieval milieu a little more than that. Angmar is supposed to be a medieval commoner who just wanted to be a straight fighter, and then suddenly had his life changed, and is now trying to keep up.

I understand that 3.5e “classes” aren’t classes, and that to optimize a character, one should pre-plan in a way that real people don’t pre-plan their own lives. In my own life, if I had known what my jobs would be, I’d have taken some different classes and picked up some different skills, for instance. Therefore, to create a reasonably effective PC, we all pre-plan their growth from the start.

But this is not a PC, and I’m not trying to make the most effective build possible. I’m trying to make a reasonable build, given the fact that his first four levels were not aimed at what he’s doing now. He spent four levels trying to be the best fighter he could. Then, starting from that point, he shifted gears and spent four levels trying to turn into the best ruler he can.

That’s the character conception, and it doesn’t lead to a perfect leader’s build.

Several of you have come up with very clever ways to circumvent this character conception.

[And I appreciate all of it. I am learning about a lot more than this character.]

He will not be an X 8, for any value of X, even if the first four levels could make a reasonable fighter. He will not have any leadership-based skills in his first four levels, unless I can justify them for a guardsman-only build. Yes, this is different from how we build the best PCs. That’s the point. He had no plan to be an 8th level; he had probably never met an 8th level when he was starting out.

The comment from lylsyly that the feats from Fighter and Feat Rogue will be fighter bonus feats that won’t help him rule is correct. He doesn’t choose anything to help him rule until fifth level. That means that at 8th level, he will only have one feat aimed at his governorship. It will be Leadership unless somebody comes up with something else.

lylsyly also says that Perform (oratory) won’t have any mechanical effect without bardic music. I think he’s mistaken here. Can somebody check my thinking? The Bard class description of spells states “Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).” Under Bardic Music, it states, “…a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him…” What do I need music for that another Perform skill can’t replace?

He’s not going to retrain the Fighter beginning because a good medieval leader must be ready to go to war.

Palanan, you are correct that the Noble class would be perfect for somebody in his position. But it makes some assumptions that do not fit Angmar. He is a commoner in a nobleman’s position.

The description of the Noble class says, “Noble characters are born with either wealth or long family lineage, usually both. Anyone raised in a life of privilege might be a noble, even if they are not termed nobility by society. Nobles may also gain rank and title by advantageous marriages.” Angmar fell into this rank accidentally, and had no idea that he would have it even five minutes earlier. You can dismiss that as fluff, but it also says, “The noble class may be taken only at 1st level. This reflects the idea that one is born to this class.” [This class, unusually for 3.5e, actually represents a class.]

Similarly, the Education feat is not for a common soldier. “In your youth, you received the benefit of formal schooling of some type.” That’s not Angmar.


Other than that, I’m not sure if there is another class that emphasizes out-of-combat social interactions and kingdom-building, given the heavy emphasis in 3.5 mechanics on tactical encounters. Your best solution might be to choose the abilities you want and then design a four-level class or PrC to incorporate them.

I think you’re right. My main conclusion from all this discussion is that the class I’m looking for doesn’t exist, or, like Noble, doesn’t fit Angmar’s situation. And I won’t invent a PrC for an NPC. His build doesn’t have to be perfect.

Both Marshal and Bardic Sage have all the skills I’m after, and some abilities that will help.

So unless somebody comes up with a different plan that convinces me, his first four levels (to be a good fighter) will be either:
Feat Rogue 4 (for an additional 12 skill points), or
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 (for roughly 5 more hit points and an additional bonus Fighter feat).

His next four levels, to try to become a better ruler, will be either:
Marshal 4, or
Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3.

None of these classes are PrCs. That means that I need to be careful about XP penalties. There would be a penalty for a Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3, for instance. The only possibilities without a penalty are:
A. Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 4
B. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 4
C. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3

[He’s human, so B and C are fine.]

I'm going to assume that he started out as a town guard, and so ranks in Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Intimidate make sense. He became a soldier later. When it seemed like he might become an officer, he considered a rank or two in Perform (oratory) at level 4. [Coming up with the right speech at the right time is, after all, how he became governor.

Everyone, thank you for all your suggestions. Angmar has a better design for it, and I know more in general that will affect other NPCs as well.

[Palanan]

Very glad you’ve found an approach that works for your conception of the character. And you’re right, I overlooked the text about the Noble only being available to first-level characters.

I’m curious to see your complete feat selection once you have that worked out. Like you, I’ve got ideas for several NPCs from this, and I’d be very interested in the final version for Angmar.

[Analytica]

Honestly, I can absolutely see a feat rogue 8 as fitting for a town guard. A town guard, unlike a soldier, is more focused on taking and implementing orders, keeping order (in another sense) and resolving/preventing crime or rebellion. They spend more of their time talking to townsfolks (including preventing and redirecting crowds, if needed) than they do marching in an army unit and fighting other armies. That all translates to social skills. And quickly enough they become unit leaders, officers, which translates to more leadership. I could absolutely see a town guard turned governor as a feat rogue 8 with leadership and most of those fighter bonus feats going into things like armor proficiency and so on, just based on what a guard, as opposed to like a phalanx soldier or gladiator does. Same with a bodyguard, sans the leadership.

[lylsyly]

lylsyly also says that Perform (oratory) won’t have any mechanical effect without bardic music. I think he’s mistaken here. Can somebody check my thinking? The Bard class description of spells states “Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).” Under Bardic Music, it states, “…a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him…” What do I need music for that another Perform skill can’t replace?

Hence my statement. Without at least 1 level of bard your perform skill is basically just thematic without a mechanical effect. Go look at the skills section Jay R.

At any rate, I've said my two coppers worth. Good Luck and Good Gaming!! ;-)

[Maat Mons]

With regard to Marshal, what will his Charisma be? If his Cha bonus is +1, doubling it with Motivate Charisma isn't that big a deal.

Have you given any thought to his equipment? Wealth by level for an 8th-level NPC is, 9,400 gp. That's more than enough for a Lesser Choker of Eloquence, which gives a +5 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and vocal forms of Perform. Alternately, if you don't care much about Bluff and Perform, or care about Intimidate, you could do a Circlet of Persuasion and Medal of Gallantry combo. The net effect would be +5 Diplomacy, +1 Bluff, and +3 to all other Cha-based skills.

[Gorthawar]

So unless somebody comes up with a different plan that convinces me, his first four levels (to be a good fighter) will be either:
Feat Rogue 4 (for an additional 12 skill points), or
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 (for roughly 5 more hit points and an additional bonus Fighter feat).

His next four levels, to try to become a better ruler, will be either:
Marshal 4, or
Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3.

None of these classes are PrCs. That means that I need to be careful about XP penalties. There would be a penalty for a Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3, for instance. The only possibilities without a penalty are:
A. Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 4
B. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 4
C. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3

[He’s human, so B and C are fine.]

I'm going to assume that he started out as a town guard, and so ranks in Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Intimidate make sense. He became a soldier later. When it seemed like he might become an officer, he considered a rank or two in Perform (oratory) at level 4. [Coming up with the right speech at the right time is, after all, how he became governor.

Everyone, thank you for all your suggestions. Angmar has a better design for it, and I know more in general that will affect other NPCs as well.

Something that might work for you / Angmar is the Warrior Skald prestige class. It gives you all the bardic music abilities and some extra ones but loses out on the spellcasting abilities that might not quite fit into the concept of Angmar.

You could build him as Feat Rogue2/Fighter2/Crusader1/Marshal1/Warrior Skald2 for example.

The level in Crusader gives you concentration as class skill to get into the prestige class and some ToB goodies like the bolstering voice stance to encourage all his allies (and himself) even further. Having a number of martial maneuvers at hand never hurts either.

Edit: Changed order of classes to avoid use of cross class skills.
Edit2: I have a vague memory that it clarified somewhere that perform:oratory would work as qualification for Warrior Skald but I might be wrong. It's obviously in your hands as DM to allow it anyways.

[Jay R]

Warrior Skald is a good idea, but I can't make it work. It requires 9 ranks of Perform and 6 ranks of Concentration, which would be hard to manage while trying to pump more ranks into Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Besides, Warrior Skald is not 3.5. The only version I know of is 3.0. I'll make exceptions to the rules for PCs, but not for NPCs (unless I really need it).

His Charisma started at 15, and goes up to 16 at level 8. [No, this doesn't conflict with the idea that he was training to be a soldier. He didn't choose his charisma, strength, or intelligence, anymore than you or I did.]

I've noticed one thing comparing the Marshal 4 build with Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3. Bardic Sage has 8 + INT bonus skill ranks per level compared to 6 + INT bonus for Marshal. But a Bard should pump points into Spellcraft, Concentration, and Perform (and possibly Knowledge (arcana)), leaving fewer points for the social skills than the Marshal class allows.

By the way, he will have 7 feats by the time he reaches 4th level (1st, 3rd, Human, two bonus feats from Feat Rogue, and two bonus from Fighter). Since I doubt if I will ever use him in a fight, except at the head of a company, I don't care that much what they are. My current plan is:

Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Danger Sense, Weapon Focus (longsword), and one more. Pretty basic and unoriginal, but 4th level Angmar is just that. Any recommendations for the last one? Anything wrong with the ones I've listed for a "mere" soldier?

Again, it's not necessary to optimize. What would a town guard turned soldier have chosen?

Also, at 6th level, he will take Leadership, unless somebody comes up with a better feat for a governor. His cohort will be 4th level at that time, 6th level now. What do you recommend for the one higher-level character in the province whom he can trust completely? This can be somebody properly trained for his job (which Angmar is not). [Obviously his followers will include a bookkeeper, seneschal, etc. -- provincial officers with no need for a combat background.]

[Maat Mons]

The traditional options for the cohort would be Cleric or Wizard. But I'm going to suggest Archivist. Being an Int-focused character, he'd make a good advisor. But I feel like the Cleric spell list is more desirable from the perspective of keeping the province safe and prosperous. Plus, you can give him some choice non-Cleric spells, like Plant Growth, which lets him single handedly revolutionize the agriculture of the region.

Will the cohort also have the leadership feat?

[Rleonardh]

Human cleric 5/barbarian 1/cleric 3+
H improved initiative
1 power attack
3 touch of healing
6 leap attack
9 shock trooper

Also considering this is not a player but a npc, you can add anything really, so leadership would definitely be great.


If you really want to go material class and the fighter 4 go, fighter 4/cleric 4 than just keep pump cleric. If you want the "leadership qualities than just do fighter 4 rogue 4+

Or even crazier
Human fighter 4/rogue 1/cleric 1/rogue 2+
Take able learner and than healing devotion and extra turning somewhere. After ever combat he can heal himself with the turns. Or switch out rogue for bard.
Fighter 4/cleric 1/bard3+ go with the feat mentioned before for those skills you want, trade in healing for healing devotion as free feat than extra turning.

[Yahzi Coyote]

So what is that class?
Cleric is always the best for social control.

Cure Minor Wounds - stops people from bleeding out. This is better than modern medicine can do.
Zone of Truth - pretty much ends all crime.
Remove Disease/Blindness/Deafness - stop plagues before they start, and again, better than the Mayo clinic.
Plant Growth (with Plant domain) - equal to modern fertilizer, and a single 5th level cleric can support a small city. This single-handedly rings in the Industrial Revolution, because your society has so much food it can afford to invest in craftsmen.

The ability to heal soldiers, save birthing mothers, and cure children makes for very loyal henchman. And that's at 5th level, before you can raise the people who die serving you.

[Gavinfoxx]

*Cloistered* Cleric!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depending on how active he is in military campaigns, how about society mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind)?

Not all kings sit on a throne and direct operations from behind the back lines (or just allow his heads of military to do it while he [occasionally] pretends to be useful); some are warriors and conquerors, and being able to directly link all of his generals' minds together while buffing and healing them could give a significant edge in major offensive and defensive operations.

[gijoemike]

After the fighter bit of his career, straight bard. Not for spells, or performance. But for the skills and bardic knowledge.

He begins to take lessons in oratory, aka the ability to give a speech. Very necessary for a leader of any type.
He has access to an ability to boost morale.
He has access to a good number of skill points which is fluffed by he has access to tutors and a library.
He has access to bluff and sense motive due to counselors and being in constant back and forth discussions on laws and holding court.
He now has access to knowledge of magic to prepare himself against it in the near future.
"Holy SHIZ, the wizard can control me by uttering a few words which takes less than 3 seconds! I need to defend my mind"
He now has a limited ability to learn spells which clearly indicates he didn't have proper schooling for years.
He isn't beholden to a church or deity which could turn away many possible allies.
He has access to just know stuff via Bardic knowledge. Maybe he heard it in the bar, in the soldiers tents on the battlefield, maybe from that book in the library, or maybe at the conference table.
Still able to wear a chain shirt to display I was a fighter in the trenches.


I dislike wizard as a leader for the simple reason wizards have to study for hours. at least 1 to learn spells, at least 1 to transcribe new spells, no more armor.
I dislike cleric unless we are going for a theocracy. Even when going for the concept instead of deity option.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I dislike cleric unless we are going for a theocracy. Even when going for the concept instead of deity option.You know who the best type of leader is? A cleric of the concept of "good governance."

[Alcore]

Just from the opening post (the few setting details we get) I think…


Continue with the martial class (unless he starts leading from the back i think he will lead by the sword)

However that rarely gets the skills needed for statecraft. A two/three level dip into something else is advised (and the point of the thread)


Sorcerer (some myths have the ruler of the land have a bond with the land. Can substitute with bard/druid for more wilderness kingdoms)

Cleric (especially if he wants support from a LG congregation)

Knight (an actual class; provides a number of handy skills. Still martial)

[Rleonardh]

Well if he is a Frontliner than he limited to light armor if going bard. With that being said bard definitely has some good things going for it.

Cleric with plant domain let's you be a neutral cleric that can go all the way from chaotic good to chaotic neutral in alignment which is a great chunk of population.

Bard if archery
Cleric if melee

Ehlonna can do plant and celerity domains
Celerity has haste btw.

[Berenger]

Cleric is always the best for social control.

Cure Minor Wounds - stops people from bleeding out. This is better than modern medicine can do.
Zone of Truth - pretty much ends all crime.
Remove Disease/Blindness/Deafness - stop plagues before they start, and again, better than the Mayo clinic.
Plant Growth (with Plant domain) - equal to modern fertilizer, and a single 5th level cleric can support a small city. This single-handedly rings in the Industrial Revolution, because your society has so much food it can afford to invest in craftsmen.

The ability to heal soldiers, save birthing mothers, and cure children makes for very loyal henchman. And that's at 5th level, before you can raise the people who die serving you.

Running around on a battlefield to try and save the lives of a handful wounded soldiers, acting as a court clerk and spamming Zone of Truth until the last one in a bunch of suspect cattle thieves fails his will save, healing two people per day from disease and blessing farmland 0,7 acres at a time is actually kind of nice if you are responsible for the welfare of some idyllic village.

Lord Angmar is supposed to govern a whole province of an empire. If we take something like the Roman Empire as an example, we are talking about a domain roughly the size of England with anywhere from a few hundred thousand to a few million inhabitants. If the ruler of a political entity on this scale develops a habit of wasting his time getting involved in that kind of micro-management, all is lost.

This guy should concentrate on doing his actual job, which is making political and military decisions that affect the province as a whole. This absolutely includes fostering and maintaining a good relationship with religious cults whose members can in turn provide above services to the population.

[Alcore]

To add onto what i already said i know you don't want an NPC class but you actually describe it as it being quite peaceful...

Are you sure you don't want expert?

[Metastachydium]

Hm. How about something a bit more heterodox? Start out with Warblade instead of Fighter (a good excuse to have decent INT that comes with Diplomacy, Intimidate and Knowledge (history+local) as class skills), boost CHA at 4 (justifying it with his being an officer at that point and thus needing it) and then switch over to Master ProfessionalDLCS. Master Professional gets 8+INT skill points per level, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), Sense Motive (all good skills for someone who wants to deal with diplomacy, politics (in terms of intrigue and policy making) and other ruling-related activities), Appraise (fluff it as a head for economics), Handle Animal and Ride (good for representation). Other class skills can be used for a humanising final touch: Heal, Knowledge (nature) and Survival are skills fit for a weary leader who likes to spend some time out in the wild hunting and stuff to get rid of excess steam. As for Knacks, he can take, I don't know, Fast-Talk at level 5 (fluff it as the ability to smoothly produce the white lies needed to calm down troops or crowds on the verge of panic), and (here comes the important bit) Faithful Aide at level 8, alongside pumping his CHA further for a whole freakin' extra cohort in addition to the one granted by Leadership which he took two levels earlier. (And if you're really worried about mages with mind control, make one of those cohorts, I don't know, an aasimar (not the lesser version; you don't want 'em to be humanoid) Paladin 2/Monk 3 with Mage Slayer and call it a day.)

[Maat Mons]

Nitpick: The area affected by a single casting of Plant Growth is about 0.7854 square miles, which is about 502.7 acres. In fairness, that still only lets a single caster keep about 1,800 hectares of land covered, if he's limited to one casting per day. That's a little less than 10,000 5th-level Druids (or Archivists) to handle an England's-worth of farmland.

But the trick is, you don't have 10,000 Druids (or Archivists) going around casting Plant Growth. You have 1st-level Commoners (or whatever) going around using 10,000 Hands of the Oak Father. Those are 5,000-gp items that can cast Plant Growth once per day.

But where do you get 10,000 Hands of the Oak Father? You have a bunch of 3rd-level Adepts (or whatever) with the Craft Wonderous Item feat make them. Each one takes 5 man-days to complete, so factor in however-many Adepts (or whatever) with Craft Wonderous Item you can lay your hands on, and you know how long this will take to get up and running.

You may notice that Adepts don't natively gain access to the spells that serve as prerequisites for crafting a Hand of the Oak Father. But that's okay, because those spells can be supplied from an item. And the item perfectly suited to supply those spells is … an Hand of the Oak Father. So you just need one 5th-level Druid (or Archivist) to craft a few, then you can hand them off to your 3rd-level Adepts (or whatever) for duplication.

So why did I recommend making the cohort an Archivist? Why not just get some random 5th-level Druid to help you kick this off? Well, this sounds like a pretty low-level setting, so 5th-level characters would be hard to come by. And a lot of Druids are kind of reclusive, and not very fond of agriculture. Finding an NPC both willing and able to help you get this started could be tough. Plus, the Archivist cohort has lots of other benefits.

[Gavinfoxx]

10,000 Hands of the Oak Father

You might as well start going through my Post Scarcity D&D handbook at that point!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

That said, it was a good idea and I added your idea to my handbook.

[Berenger]

Nitpick: The area affected by a single casting of Plant Growth is about 0.7854 square miles, which is about 502.7 acres.

Thanks. I was halfway into a rant about the horrors of imperial system when I realized that I just accidentally calculated the area for "Overgrowth" instead of "Enrichment".

[Rleonardh]

Not sure what book it's in but for cleric you can give up ability to spontaneously cast cure/cause wounds and instead cast domain spells from one domain you have.

That's a few castings per day of that spell.

[Yahzi Coyote]

This absolutely includes fostering and maintaining a good relationship with religious cults whose members can in turn provide above services to the population.
You mean there are already spell-casters who can do all of this?

Then it doesn't matter what his classes are, because sooner or later a cleric will replace him.

Why would anyone follow anyone else when there is a guy in the room who can bring you or your loved ones back from the dead?

[Yahzi Coyote]

Nitpick: The area affected by a single casting of Plant Growth is about 0.7854 square miles, which is about 502.7 acres.
If he only casts during one season (100 days), that's still farmland for 12,500 people.

But apparently the setting already has a bunch of casters to do this. :smalleek:

[Berenger]

You mean there are already spell-casters who can do all of this?

Then it doesn't matter what his classes are, because sooner or later a cleric will replace him.

Why would anyone follow anyone else when there is a guy in the room who can bring you or your loved ones back from the dead?

Since this is a D&D setting and we are talking about a huge area with many inhabitants: yes, I assume there are other spellcasters.

Why wouldn't everybody want a cleric as their ruler?

First, for the same reason you don't see masses of neurosurgeons or NAVY Seals become mayors, governors or presidents: because their abilities (while awesome, rare, life-saving / life-threatening and totally out of reach for an average person) don't have a strong synergy with the characteristics needed to be a competent administrator and leader. Also, because pursuit of a political career would deprive those specialists of the time and opportunity to actually use the unique abilities that make them valuable both in their respective fields and to their society in the first place.

Second, the average society in a D&D setting is polytheistic. Making the cleric of one particular god the ruler is a good way to alienate the followers of any number of rival or morally opposed gods. Those other gods likely have powerful clerics of their own. If this has led to (un)holy civil wars in the past, a country likely has widely popular laws in place against clerics as rulers.

Third, just because someone can do awesome and miraculous things, that doesn't mean he will actually do them for you. If Resurrections are hard to do, expensive and rare in the setting, the new ruler has to be very stingy with them. If they are somehow made cheap and available en masse, some chaotic good hippy cleric will already dole them out for free. Also, there are pleasant afterlifes most of the time. If my dear departed were decent people, I'm likely not doing them much of a favor pulling them back.

[Jay R]

Why would anyone follow anyone else when there is a guy in the room who can bring you or your loved ones back from the dead?

He can bring them back from the dead for 5,000 gp worth of diamonds. Even if the cleric were willing to pay for it himself, he doesn't have 5,000 gp of diamonds per person in the province. In fact, Angmar doesn't even have 5,000 gp worth of diamonds.


But apparently the setting already has a bunch of casters to do this. :smalleek:

Speaking as the DM, I have never said this, and it isn't true. Previously, I wrote, "The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points."

At 8th level, Angmar is probably the highest level character in the province. His 6th level cohort is one of the three or so at that level.

I've decided that the cohort will not have plant growth, for all the reasons that people are suggesting having it. If he had it, he'd be wandering all over the province casting it, and people would already know a lot about him (and therefore Angmar). Most of the PCs come from a little village on the very edge of the province, which has had no visitor from the government for decades. But its days of quiet isolation are about to end. [One PC has run away from her arranged marriage, and comes from further in.]

In the opening episode, there will be falling star, which will strike a mountain in the wilderness, about 15-20 miles from the village. The PCs will be asked to investigate, and after they deal with the issue, they will meet some of Angmar's men who have been sent to look into it. They will have no idea who this "Angmar" person is. Only the fleeing PC will even know who he is, and what authority he has, and she will probably assume that they are coming after her.

Therefore the cohort will not be wandering around the province making people happy about Angmar's rule.

But keep the ideas coming, if you like. I'm mining them for further ideas.

In fact, I've decided not to design the cohort until I need him, and then I will give him the abilities I need. Until then, Angmar has Schrödinger's cohort.

[Berenger]

Until then, Angmar has Schrödinger's cohort.

So, undead catfolk? :smallbiggrin:

[Rleonardh]

Pure fighters will easily be replaced unless backed by divine and arcane.

And dude all good gods get along with others only ones that will be against you will be evil aligned 😂

Honestly I'd go this if you want to stay fighter.

Fighter 4/barbarian 1/cleric 1/fighter 2
Acf barbarian pounce

H improved initiative
1 power attack
1f cleave
2f combat reflexes
3 improved bull rush
4f leap attack
6 extra turning
6cd healing devotion
6cd sun devotion
8f shock trooper

Use your turns to help fight vs undead and also at 8th level each turn = 20 hp after battle.
So healing devotion is 1
Extra turning is 4
Cleric base is 3+ cha so at least 8 at 10 cha.

Level 10 it's 30hp per turn.

Bard is good also, many skill points that you want, spells that can help role,buff, heal, summon monsters, and inspiration.

Good old hold person on a fighter = dead ruler 😉

Rogue 1/druid 7 would be even better and a better fighter to boot.
H able learner
1 improved initiative
3 natural bond
6 natural spell

[Gavinfoxx]

Speaking as the DM, I have never said this, and it isn't true. Previously, I wrote, "The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points."

At 8th level, Angmar is probably the highest level character in the province. His 6th level cohort is one of the three or so at that level.


Have you looked at my handbooks in detail? Are the amount of casters increasing? Will there be NPC casters like Magewrights, Gleaners (3rd party), Religious (ie, Domain) Adepts, Augurs (3rd party), Soulshapers (Homebrew), and the like, or just easy to train classes like Warlocks, which might be able to manage the backbone of some of these economic initiatives. A lot of the spells mentioned are QUITE low level; even there only being a lot of level 4 casters (for 2nd level spells and powers, and the item creation feats that support them) should be enough to cause a lot of prosperity.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Jay R]

Have you looked at my handbooks in detail? Are the amount of casters increasing? Will there be NPC casters like Magewrights, Gleaners (3rd party), Religious (ie, Domain) Adepts, Augurs (3rd party), Soulshapers (Homebrew), and the like, or just easy to train classes like Warlocks, which might be able to manage the backbone of some of these economic initiatives. A lot of the spells mentioned are QUITE low level; even there only being a lot of level 4 casters (for 2nd level spells and powers, and the item creation feats that support them) should be enough to cause a lot of prosperity.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

I have read the post-scarcity handbook carefully, and taken notes for use by my PCs in other games. It's very well researched and written.

This game is intended to hold onto a medieval or legendary flavor, which is opposed to post-scarcity. We are approaching a time similar to the fall of Rome or the death of Charlemagne, not the Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution. It's like Sauron is about to organize the orcs, or the White Witch is started her eternal winter.

The underground cultures and other planes are about to re-emerge. There will soon be an influx of monsters and Chaotic cultures from other planes, and the civilization will be under siege. It will be struggling to defend itself, not growing economically.

This is the dawn of an Age of Heroes, as they struggle against the rising tide of invasions from forces of Evil and Chaos. There have been Ages of Heroes before. NPCs will rise in power and levels at about the same rate that the PCs do. Soon, the highest level characters will be the ones spending all their time facing the monsters, not sitting at home researching.

Lord Angmar is designed to be able to understand threats to his realm, but not to be able to defend it against them without the PCs.

Yes, there was no way to know all this. I tried to give all the information relevant to creating Angmar, and no more.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's like Sauron is about to organize the orcs, or the White Witch is started her eternal winter.

Keep in mind, Sauron was a force of industrialization and progress against pastoral stagnancy. Look up the fanfiction novel, 'The Last Ringbearer' by Kirill Eskov for an interesting perspective on this topic.

[Rleonardh]

Than just go rogue for nothing but the skill set.
As you said a bad npc lord as no arcane or divine or so g for him.

That leaves in phb
Barbarian more hp and acf pounce, no one wants a conquer
Fighter go barbarian 1 at least, but hopefully you got people whom he can trust. But than again I cast hold person or charm person.
Monk saves only basically, be one with oneself
Rogue skillset you want, but you alienate good people as no one can trust a politician.

[Jay R]

Keep in mind, Sauron was a force of industrialization and progress against pastoral stagnancy.

Giggle. Well, yes, in the sense of fumes and pollution and destruction of lands and trees and cruel magics of fear and enslavement. I suspect that Tolkien would have agreed with this quote from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:

"But that would be putting the clock back," gasped the Governor. "Have you no idea of progress, of development?"’

"I have seen them both in an egg," said Caspian. "We call it Going bad in Narnia."

[Gavinfoxx]

Giggle. Well, yes, in the sense of fumes and pollution and destruction of lands and trees and cruel magics of fear and enslavement. I suspect that Tolkien would have agreed with this quote from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:

Tolkein was very anti industrialization. That's why I suggested that book -- it's a different perspective on the events of LotR, and it is reasonable to see the canon events of the story as having a bit of unreliable narrator syndrome. It's an interesting take, look it up! ;)

[AnonJr]

Giggle. Well, yes, in the sense of fumes and pollution and destruction of lands and trees and cruel magics of fear and enslavement. I suspect that Tolkien would have agreed with this quote from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:

Tolkien and Lewis were good friends. I wouldn't be too surprised at similar themes popping up in their works.

[liquidformat]

So here are a few options that might work for you:

First off I think Paladin of Freedom (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) might be a better option here than fighter. He starts with bluff and sense motives, he is a charismatic fighter and he would have the thematic drive to usurp the old ruler. Also you could add in Harmonious Knight ACLs and From Smite to Song feat to have more of a leader type of feel.

Harmonious Knight Paladin of Freedom 6/Feat Rogue 2 actually looks like quite a good fit for your leader all around and if he gains a level or two you could look at legendary leader or warmaster for finish things off.

On the sidenote of the issues with Noble class, you are the DM so you could simply say he qualifies for Noble once he becomes the lord and at which point he starts to undergo training as a noble. That seems pretty reasonable to me and doesn't fall to far outside the requirements for the class.

[KoDT69]

I understand a lot of the previous posters choices, but I'm gonna go against the grain, as apparently I do most of the time.

I think a level 5 to 20 Adept makes the most sense as a city leader, obviously level depending on city size and population. He would have a couple Experts and Aristocrats as close consorts. Likely a strong guard captain higher level Warrior.

I have a bunch of reasons here.

Regardless of high magic, low magic, technology level of the campaign world, a Wizard of any level has better things to do than run/own/admin a city. A Cleric has better things to do, unless his divine duty has been decided that it serves greater purpose. Even the lowly Fighter has better things to do. What adventurer dreams of running a city in place of slaying Mythic Dragons and Demon Lords? How does running that city get you more power? That is the crux of adventuring. Wealth is great but we all know gaining power is better! They took the time to create the NPC classes for a reason! I'm not saying every single city leader would be NPC classes, but it just wouldn't make sense if we had high level adventurers just settle into a city and just retire. How many opportunities to defend the city can you have before it's like:
"Ring the bell the Giants are at the gates again!"
...
"Nevermind. Mayor Elminster just teleported on the portcullis and exploded them all before we could react!"
"Ok then, call in the morgue trolley again."

Leading a city in real life sounds sweet because we don't have dragons to slay!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

He'd make a good mouthpiece for the actual ruler, at least.

[Rleonardh]

Unfortunately adapt does not have skills he wants.

Only bard or rogue does.

So fighter 4 than 4 of bard or rogue

[Zanos]

I understand a lot of the previous posters choices, but I'm gonna go against the grain, as apparently I do most of the time.

I think a level 5 to 20 Adept makes the most sense as a city leader, obviously level depending on city size and population. He would have a couple Experts and Aristocrats as close consorts. Likely a strong guard captain higher level Warrior.

I have a bunch of reasons here.

Regardless of high magic, low magic, technology level of the campaign world, a Wizard of any level has better things to do than run/own/admin a city. A Cleric has better things to do, unless his divine duty has been decided that it serves greater purpose. Even the lowly Fighter has better things to do. What adventurer dreams of running a city in place of slaying Mythic Dragons and Demon Lords? How does running that city get you more power? That is the crux of adventuring. Wealth is great but we all know gaining power is better! They took the time to create the NPC classes for a reason! I'm not saying every single city leader would be NPC classes, but it just wouldn't make sense if we had high level adventurers just settle into a city and just retire. How many opportunities to defend the city can you have before it's like:
"Ring the bell the Giants are at the gates again!"
...
"Nevermind. Mayor Elminster just teleported on the portcullis and exploded them all before we could react!"
"Ok then, call in the morgue trolley again."

Leading a city in real life sounds sweet because we don't have dragons to slay!

It's not like even a "normal" king does all the management himself. He might set overall direction of policy but any sizeable country that doesn't run on literal or figurative magic is going to have any army of bureaucrats handling the minutia.

And both in real history and in the fantasies inspired by it, kings often fought with their troops on battlefields. A lot of them died there, even.