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View Full Version : The Legend of Zelda: ...meets D&D?



SilverClawShift
2007-11-26, 10:44 PM
Before anything else, I'd like to mention that this is NOT about a Zelda D20 system or anything like that. I've seen attempts at bringing zelda to the D&D table, and that's not what this is about.

No... this is more about the opposite... Bludgeoning the legend of zelda games with a titanium D20.

Lately I've been going back through the Ocarina of Time game, cause it's a freaking classic among classics, that frankly (I feel) did a great job capturing the feeling of zelda games for a 3D world and a new generation of gaming experience.
As I'm playing, it occurs to me that Link is the quintessential adventurer. A scrappy little guy with pointy ears, heading out into the world with nothing but a green tunic, a sword, and a seemingly endless bottle of liquid courage. Over the course of his adventure, he trecks through plains and forrests, goes deep into trap and puzzle filled dungeons, collecting magical artifacts from ages past and using them to defeat monstrous nightmare creatures in an effort to defeat the BBEG and save the princess while restoring balance and peace to the world for no reason other than it being the right thing to do.
*catches breath*.
Darnitalltohell, Link is THE hero. He's a hero-golem, constructed from raw distilled heroism and poured into a heroic shell and animated by pure hero. When you think "Adventurer", link's pretty much got you covered.
He fights, he uses magical items, he casts the occasional spell, he sneaks behind stuff and stabs them in the back of the neck, he even plays friggin magiocal bard songs.

But ignoring that for the time being, I was thinking about how much fun the game is to actually play. Dancing around sword swinging skeletons, doing backflips before diving with my sword or making quick jabs against their shields to keep them moving....
And it got me thinking about D&D, and D20 games (both the good old fashioned kind, and digital examples of our favorite pasttime such as neverwinter nights and baldur's gate). Which left me thinking about how fun both kinds of games are, but for such different reasons.
Neverwinter Nights, and similar games, are really only fun for two reasons. The story of the game (and any fan made campaigns), and the fact that it's one big pretty D&D character sheet to play with. The game itself isn't "Fun" to play, you click on something and your character fights it until it stops moving, and then you collect the loot. I love the game, I love playing the game, but it's not actually entertaining to sit down and do it, it's entertaining because of what lies under the surface.
Zelda, Ocarina of Time, on the other hand, is fun fun fun times to pick up the controller and stab stab stab the shambling monsters that get within slashing range. Or launching a dome of fire in every direction cause you're surrounded. Or laying down high explosives and rolling out of the way. It's just a good time. The story's good too and all, and watching your lil guy go from 3 hearts to 'lotsa' hearts is always satisfying...

But somehow I can't help but imagine the results of trying to mix the best of both worlds.

Imagine firing up a game like Zelda: OoT, but when you start a new game, the first thing you see is a character creation screen with full on D20 content. Class list, skills, feats, the works.
An action-adaption of D20 mechanics, where you're actually pressing buttons and doing stuff instead of letting the computer pick a number between 1 and 20 to determine wether or not you hit. Your BAB and what weapon you have selected could determine the types of attacks you make, and how fast you make them, shields would be something you really used, spells would be aimed with a mouse (or analogue stick or whatever)... Then make it 4-player.

Great, now I'm itching to play a game that doesn't even exist.

Oh well.
I guess there's no REAL point to this rambling, aside from whistfully dreaming of a game that could put all others to shame. I wanna plunk spider-climbing vampires with silver arrows while my friend hits a charging troll with a fireball darnit.
Anyone know of a (non-tabletop, obviously) game that might reasonably quench my thirst for action gaming AND D20 nerdism simultaneously?

Blasterfire
2007-11-26, 10:54 PM
the elder scrolls games come close, I especially enjoyed Oblivion, but they don't have any multi player. However, there may be a multi player mod, user created content being what it is.

Prometheus
2007-11-26, 11:08 PM
I've quite literally dreamt of it myself. Unfortunately I know no alternative. I think the biggest thing I like about D&D is how open it is. The system is just the mechanics, the real magic is in the fact that it is customizable from the player's perspective and original from the DM's perspective. And you don't get that anywhere else. The trick I think, is not to emulate the rules of D&D but the style of it.

You would start with a powerful MMORPG game like Everquest or Wow or Diablo II or even an adventure oriented game like Zelda, or Prince of Persia and make it designed to modded as well as being multiplayer. "DMs" could add their own items, attacks, classes, races, monsters, polygons & skins, maps - and contrary to all current MMORPG logic, the game would be less about balance, PvP, and power-gaming, and more about playing a game that is fun.

In order to support such different systems without having one ruin it all, they would have to follow one of the following routes:
A) there would have to be generous server allowance which would certainly cause the monthly rates to be high, or an addition cost to DM
B) It would have to be simple enough that a home computer could act as the Server. In which case some graphics, gameplay or multiplaying would be lost
C) It would be module based, creating the feeling of an unlimited number of games of varying quality and the DM would become a game/adventure designer rather than a describer and referee

One closing comment though is, I think that D&D is much more sociable than either MMORPGs or single player adventure games, which is a plus that a computer can never replicate.

Kyeudo
2007-11-26, 11:09 PM
I must agree that a true crossbreed between Ocarina of Time and D&D would be truly great. D&D has always been about getting in character, and being able to see through his eyes would be a great help, plus it would make killing the monsters that much more awesome.

All of a sudden I want to play that game.

Morrowwind came realy close, but there wasn't the Multiplayer fun or the truly adaptive worlds of D&D.

Hario
2007-11-27, 12:27 AM
I love the feel of games like that myself but for someone to truely feel like the main hero. It has to be a one on one game, player versus DM which can be fine. Just hard for DnD since CR is valued for a 4 person encounter. It most definatly can be done but for a game like that I'd prolly wouldn't use DnD. I'd prolly use d20 fantasy or even BESM (defiantly works if your player takes the system seriously.) If you want to stick to DnD I'd suggest allowing the Action Dice varient to add an extra feel of suspense for your player. Eberron is very much what I'd concider the closest setting to what LoZ/Indiana Jones type feeling is, so don't be afraid to take ideas from Eberron it was written for that style of gaming.

But All in all, games like that don't really work well with more than 2 people because link is a jack of all trades. (Definatly a Bard or Rogue with UMD)

Snadgeros
2007-11-27, 01:50 AM
What you're basically suggesting here is an action/adventure multiplayer game with a customizable hero and attributes. So it's a Zelda MMORPG basically. To fit with the Zelda motif, combat would have to be real-time and constant, no stupid recharge times or pauses between swings. Parries and shielding would be incorporated as well. I'm starting to like this idea. Combat in groups would be a little tricky though. It's simple if you're fighting a large group of foes, and that would require strategy, but a group of 4 against one creature would be tough. Unless it's a large creature, you'd be stumbling all over each other trying to avoid hitting yourselves.

I could see this working but it would suffer the same flaw as all MMORPGs, grinding. To support a large audience for a long enough period of time, all games resort to mind-numbing repetetive fights with the same creatures over and over. It would lack the rapid progression of monsters and unique fighting arenas that have made Zelda great. Not to mention the fact that the story would be nowhere near as enthralling or epic as a single-player Zelda experience.

While not a bad idea, the idea of combining a MMORPG with Zelda is too conflicting. Imagine if Windwaker were like this. You start off customizing your Link, cool so far. You're doing this with 3 of your friends, kind of like 4 Swords. Now you start off on Outset Island, where' you're greeted by some fairly bland NPCs and told to kill X number of Jellies and retrieve Y number of pigs. When you finally do, you progress to the next island and repeat the process. If you ultimately end up unlocking all of the islands and beating Ganondorf in a kind of anti-climactic battle (Everyone beats him at least 100 times daily) then you can go back to the islands and keep doing sidequests, all of which require you to do X and repeat it Y number of times. It's basically WoW with a Zelda motif and less boring combat. So kudos to you for a decent idea, but I don't see it working since I hate GRIND!

Project_Mayhem
2007-11-27, 12:17 PM
I think a few people are falling into the trap of assuming it has to be a MMORPG - why? .You could have an ordinary console game, or even just an ordinary multiplayer PC game. Then it could work - hell, we've all played co-op games before that were awesome before. It's essentially a single long adventure designed for multiplayer, i.e something like the Four swords game, but with the whole character customisation thing going on.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-27, 01:18 PM
Exactly Project Mayhem, making the game an MMO would kinda defeat the purpose of the game. The point would be to get AWAY from the numbers of the system, and focus on action-game-style adaptations of D20 mechanics.
It'd work best as a single player game, maybe as a co-op, maybe even allowing large groups of players if you want more of a 'battle' feel going on. But certainly not something that needed centralized game servers to support thousands of people grinding to get their character to the next level for the sake of getting to the next level.

A better explenation would be to not think of it like Zelda with D20 mechanics tacked on, but to think of it like Neverwinter Nights turned into an action game.
Launch Neverwinter Nights. Create a character (fighter, rogue, sorcerer... doesn't matter). And start fighting goblins and skeletons. Except, instead of clicking on skeletons and watching your character swing at them every 6 seconds with pre-set combat animations... you're dancing around them with z-targetting and trying to make sure their attacks hit your shield.
As your BAB gets higher, your attacks become faster and you start learning special moves or attacks that'd be harder to dodge or might hit more than one target at a time. Combat feats might give you specific attacks or increase your damage for certain strikes.
That's what I'm picturing.

Now of course, not everything could be adapted straight across. Certain elements would have to be lost or replaced, but still. Sneak attack would need to be built into the system properly, dealing extra damage if the enemy hasn't seen you yet, or under certain situations (in the middle of attacking or being attacked by something else).
Surfaces could have built in climb DCs. Your climb skill could determine how quickly you could climb that surface, how maneuverable you are while on it, or if you could even climb it at all. It would be a little simplified from the D20 mechanic, but it would still serve its purpose. Things like that.

Ideally it'd be easily modifieable/module-based. You could make your own adventures or campaigns, either a straight storytelling experience like zelda, or something with multiple possible paths (or stuff that could only be accomlpished by certain classes). Or you could even make worlds that were basically death-match style, with opposing teams of good and evil adventurers working on killing each other.

Oh well. We can keep quietly hoping that someone eventually makes the game of our dreams, right?

Telonius
2007-11-27, 01:30 PM
Remember waaaaaay, way back on the original NES? There was a game called Crystalis; I think that has some aspects of what you're talking about. Secret of Mana on the SNES had some similar attributes, too.

Project_Mayhem
2007-11-27, 01:32 PM
Sneak attack would need to be built into the system properly, dealing extra damage if the enemy hasn't seen you yet, or under certain situations (in the middle of attacking or being attacked by something else).

hmmmm

anybody played manhunt ...?:belkar:

(although I guess that would be more evil assasin than chaotic good rogue

Fiery Diamond
2007-11-27, 01:35 PM
Oooooh... Just thinking about such a beautiful concept... ahhhhhh...heaven...

- Fiery Diamond

SpikeFightwicky
2007-11-27, 01:52 PM
Remember waaaaaay, way back on the original NES? There was a game called Crystalis; I think that has some aspects of what you're talking about. Secret of Mana on the SNES had some similar attributes, too.

I was actually thinking the exact same thing. As you progressed, you could charge up your weapon to fire more powerful blasts. Damn, now I have to play it again. I still have the cart lying around somewhere :smalltongue:

I think the natural progression of 'overhead adventure games' like Secret of Mana or Crystalis is what Legend of Zelda is now. It would be great if alot of the older games were redone in this way.

To make that kind of game work with all the D&D mechanics would take alot of planning, though. Every class would have to have its own unique 'path' though since it's a videogame, balance would be easier to sort out.

Jack Zander
2007-11-27, 02:25 PM
If you had enough RAM, the computer could actually roll a d20 every time you attack, and that determines if they parry or block or not.

Kyeudo
2007-11-27, 02:39 PM
Dice in an action game suck. They just bog the game down, when what you want is your own level of skill coming into play. Button mashing replaces dice rolling in an action game.

I'm thinking the game should work like this: It has a bunch of modes: Single Player, Co-Op, Deathmatch, World Builder, and Game Table.

Single Player is fairly explanitory. It plays something like Morrowind with the story from Legend of Zelda, only more action packed.

Co-Op uses the same story as Single Player, but ajusted for multiple protagonists.

Deathmatch is your standard Multiplayer Kill-Your-Friends-For-Fun, so you can show off how much better than them you are.

World Builder is a mode where you can create your own world, with NPCs, locations, treasure, traps, and other cool stuff, kind of like the map editor mode for Warcraft 3. You can then play through your own adventure if you want.

Game Table is like D&D with a keyboard or console controller in your hands. You and a bunch of friends link up for a group game. Someone joins as the DM, loads up a world he built, and controls the monsters and NPCs from third and first person perspectives. The players build characters and play. Voice chat enables in character roleplay.

Chaos Evoker
2007-11-27, 02:48 PM
I would love to see a game like this. Heck, being a future programmer, working on a project like this sounds like a blast. But it also sounds like a massive obstacle.

One of the biggest problems I find in DMing a game, for example, is that it can be very hard to challenge optimized characters. Often times the encounters are too easy or too hard with very little middle ground. The only way to do this is to limit some choices for the players. This is even harder to handle in a limited computer game engine though. Already, many choice have to be limited because it is either impossible to program or handle in the game without making the game's system requirements way too high. Top that off with trying to make it challenging with whatever optimization remains, and this becomes a very very hard game to make.

Still, if some company was up to the project, I would love to see the result.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-27, 03:43 PM
If you had enough RAM, the computer could actually roll a d20 every time you attack, and that determines if they parry or block or not.

It's true enough, but that's exactly what I'm talking about getting away from.

In neverwinter nights, the game rolls all the dice for you. it can roll hundereds of dice and do it all behind the screen to let you get right to the action! Unfortunately, the action is left-clicking. And then left clicking something else. And then picking a spell and left-clicking a third thing.

It's just not FUN to do.

The game is fun, but it's not fun for the actions you perform. Zelda, on the other hand, make a sword-fight feel like a fight. With jumps and quick dodges and jabs and spin-attacks... And an AI that (however simple) will actually respond to and fight against you.

Now THAT'S what i'm talkin about :smallsmile:

I want to play with D&D numbers and content, classes feats and skills, but do it in a game that actually feels like I'm playing a game. Tucking and rolling and jamming my rapier into something, while my friend sends a lightning bolt into a raging werewolfs face. WHOO.
Rockin.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-27, 03:50 PM
One of the biggest problems I find in DMing a game, for example, is that it can be very hard to challenge optimized characters.

I think it would actually be easier to balance a game that was more concerned with action than numbers. Balance is so tricky in actual D&D because the game is nothing but numbers beneath everything. It's possible to face enemies that you literally cannot hit without rolling a 20, or to be spotted by something that can kill you in one unavoidable hit.

In an action game, it's as much about your skill with the controls as it is the numbers. The enemy might be able to kill you with one solid hit, so? So don't freaking get hit! :smallwink:
In D&D, with dice, the numbers tell the tale. An enemy rolling a 20 gets to say "gotcha". At least in an action game, you can try to dodge it and climb something to hit them with an arrow from the high-ground.

A level 2 fighter going up against a troll would be suicide. And in an action game, that'd still be true, you'd get massacred. But action games have the small balancing factor that you're completely in control. You might only have 2 hitpoints, but with quick enough thumb action, you might pull off a miracle.

KBF
2007-11-27, 11:29 PM
And this, my friend, is the dream.
The dream of all gamers, everywhere.

That being said, I'd buy a PS3 to play this game.
That is saying A LOT.

Blasterfire
2007-11-28, 12:11 AM
Id like to say again that what youre describing is very similar to Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. There is a skill system, as well as a hiding and sneak attack mechanic.

That or hellgate: london, which has multiplayer, a stat system, and a pretty robust (imo) feat system. The only thing it doesnt have are skills, and it tends towards fasted paced action more than an rpg element, but trying the demo couldnt hurt, right? take a look at the demo here: http://www.hellgatelondon.com/underground/hellgate-london-demo-live

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-28, 12:53 AM
Darnitalltohell, Link is THE hero. He's a hero-golem, constructed from raw distilled heroism and poured into a heroic shell and animated by pure hero.
Mind if I sig that?

More in line with the topic - it would be fantastic.

I was never a big fan of Oblivion, for some reason. It just didn't click with me. Probably because the first time I played it, my monk spent 5-10 minutes mindlessly punching a level 1 larva thing without managing to actually kill it.

What it reminds me of, actually, is KOTOR and KOTOR2. You had the feat trees, a D20 facsimile system, different classes... but KOTOR isn't quite there. Not yet. The good-evil choices were simplistic and sometimes stupid, and there wasn't enough to do during battle; the 'wizard' class would mindlessly spam their force power of choice, and the 'fighter' class would usually buff up, force jump to an enemy, whack at him until he died, and then repeat.

Still, KOTOR came the closest out of any game I've played to a true, blissful D&D-action-adventure gaming.

JettWilderbeast
2007-11-28, 07:14 AM
How about the Witcher? I bought it the other week, It's great all the fantasy you could ask for and skills attributes and the character is flashy with his sword, apparently they did over 400 hours filming real sword fighters to get the flashiness and the actual sword play PERFECT.
It's no zelda (I say that because I'm link's home boy) but it sure darn tries!

Project_Mayhem
2007-11-28, 10:46 AM
How about the Witcher?

So you rate it then? I saw the add today in Game and it looked pretty cool. What consoles is it for?

Tyrael
2007-11-28, 10:59 AM
I think it would actually be easier to balance a game that was more concerned with action than numbers. Balance is so tricky in actual D&D because the game is nothing but numbers beneath everything. It's possible to face enemies that you literally cannot hit without rolling a 20, or to be spotted by something that can kill you in one unavoidable hit.

In an action game, it's as much about your skill with the controls as it is the numbers. The enemy might be able to kill you with one solid hit, so? So don't freaking get hit! :smallwink:
In D&D, with dice, the numbers tell the tale. An enemy rolling a 20 gets to say "gotcha". At least in an action game, you can try to dodge it and climb something to hit them with an arrow from the high-ground.

A level 2 fighter going up against a troll would be suicide. And in an action game, that'd still be true, you'd get massacred. But action games have the small balancing factor that you're completely in control. You might only have 2 hitpoints, but with quick enough thumb action, you might pull off a miracle.

The closest analog to this I can think of is the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and also Hellgate: London.

gaymer_seattle
2007-11-28, 11:13 AM
All I can say is

Fable: The Lost Chapters
http://www.lionhead.com/fabletlc/index.html

originally for the Xbox, it has been out for PCs for quite a while.

You "The Hero" start off in your village learning the basics of how to control the character and build some back ground.

You spend more time growing up in an academy learning fighting techniques and magic.

Then you get to select from a series of quests to build experience, increase your fighter, wizard and rogue skills. How you fight is based on your second by second choice (no click and attacks). As you do good or evil your appearance will change and so will people's reaction to you.

Fable 2 comes out in 2008. I'm all over it

JettWilderbeast
2007-11-28, 12:50 PM
So you rate it then? I saw the add today in Game and it looked pretty cool. What consoles is it for?


Yeh It's really good, For PC would definitly say give it a go! It's basically like an RPG but a one paerson party thing! You get to choose all sorts of combat styles and skills, you can do alchemy and magic and what not. Theres people to sleep with as well. It's got everything!
It's based off a really famous polish fantasy writer apparently theres a world as deep as forgotten realms/eberron behind it!

Pyroconstruct
2007-11-28, 03:55 PM
Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2 are also games similar to what you described (which is an Action RPG). They're both awesome to boot. You have 6 "classes" (permutations of primary/secondary/tertiary abilities, which influence both stats and the skills you get. Combat is entirely real time. Especially in KH2, you get a lot of customization options, especially near the end, in terms of choosing your weapons and skills.

More on the RPG side and less on the Action side, Star Ocean 2 kind of has this feel. It's very RPG-ish in terms of stats, levels, etc, but battles are realtime 2.5d combat.

Somebloke
2007-11-28, 05:25 PM
Devil May Cry 3 has a similar system in place, whereby you gain skill in four 'styles' of swordplay- an open-ended system would be an amazing thing.