[3.5] OA Shaman 3.5 Version

[Thurbane]

So, I do like the Shaman class from OA.

The Dragon 318 update offered some conversion notes: it gets a watered down version of Monk unarmed damage progression. It also changes which feats they can select as bonus feats. I'm really glad they didn't just say "Use the Spirit Shaman from CD as an update for this class".

One thing it doesn't touch on is the animal companion; AC worked pretty differently in 3.0, I believe. I think you had to cast Animal Friendship on your AC to begin with, and they scaled differently than in 3.5?

Would just giving the Shaman the same AC options and progression as a 3.5 Druid be the easiest option? Or would using the Ranger progression be more balanced? I don't believe the Shaman is anywhere near the power level of the 3.5 Druid, so it shouldn't need much nerfing...

Also, are there any other things that need to be tweaked to make it more 3.5 friendly? Skill-wise it looks fine, with the standard conversion that Scry is no longer a skill.

Did their spells get any updates or mentions in Spell Compendium?

Looking for any and all feedback.

Cheers - T.

[Jervis]

I’ve played Shaman in 3.5 before and my advice is to just use the Druid animal companion rules. That’s what the class used originally more or less. I would personally add animal empathy as well because it feels like an oversight but that’s just me.

Their spell list was mostly untouched other than a footnote saying that they can use the new cleric domains in SC (I think)

[animewatcha]

Spell compendium main comments are that make use of domains within the book. Also, spell list should be a blend of cleric and druid but not to have access to all of them. So I would guess, stick to animalish spells, elemental spells, poisons, diseases. Maybe curse-like debuff (bane) as well. I don't know what other category druids fall under for their spells. Keep in mind that shamans get access to a third domain and at higher levels can have two domain spells of certain spell levels.

[Biggus]

One thing it doesn't touch on is the animal companion; AC worked pretty differently in 3.0, I believe. I think you had to cast Animal Friendship on your AC to begin with, and they scaled differently than in 3.5?

Would just giving the Shaman the same AC options and progression as a 3.5 Druid be the easiest option? Or would using the Ranger progression be more balanced? I don't believe the Shaman is anywhere near the power level of the 3.5 Druid, so it shouldn't need much nerfing...


AC was very different in 3.0: you just got more HD of them as you levelled up and you could have multiple companions, they didn't gain a bonus progression like in 3.5 at all.

According to the latest version of the tier system (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!), Shamans are firmly tier 1, not very far behind Druids. Although I have to say that if your standard for "doesn't need nerfing" is "not more powerful than a Druid" very little is going to qualify :smalltongue:

As far as I can make out, Shamans got the same progression as Druids in 3.0. The language of the AC ability is identical for both, except that the Shaman has an additional sentence clarifying that a 2HD AC will stay with them at level 1 despite exceeding the normal amount for an adventurer (see the Animal Friendship spell here (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/) for details).

[Jervis]

AC was very different in 3.0: you just got more HD of them as you levelled up and you could have multiple companions, they didn't gain a bonus progression like in 3.5 at all.

According to the latest version of the tier system (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!), Shamans are firmly tier 1, not very far behind Druids. Although I have to say that if your standard for "doesn't need nerfing" is "not more powerful than a Druid" very little is going to qualify :smalltongue:

As far as I can make out, Shamans got the same progression as Druids in 3.0. The language of the AC ability is identical for both, except that the Shaman has an additional sentence clarifying that a 2HD AC will stay with them at level 1 despite exceeding the normal amount for an adventurer (see the Animal Friendship spell here (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/) for details).

To be fair I think the tier placement for Shaman assumes that it’s AC is the same as 3.5 Druid but correct me if i’m wrong.

[Biggus]

To be fair I think the tier placement for Shaman assumes that it’s AC is the same as 3.5 Druid but correct me if i’m wrong.

Looking at the original thread it appears you're right. Funnily enough Thurbane posted in that thread in 2017 asking about it, this appears to have been on his mind for some time...

[Thurbane]

Looking at the original thread it appears you're right. Funnily enough Thurbane posted in that thread in 2017 asking about it, this appears to have been on his mind for some time...

That definitely happens from time to time :smalltongue:

[Jervis]

That definitely happens from time to time :smalltongue:

I make a post asking about Sha’ir spell preparation at least once a year despite having a in progress handbook on the subject.

[DivineOnTheMind]

Also, are there any other things that need to be tweaked to make it more 3.5 friendly? Skill-wise it looks fine, with the standard conversion that Scry is no longer a skill.

Did their spells get any updates or mentions in Spell Compendium?

It's been a long time since I thought about it, and without checking notes/book, what I remember thinking was:

Animal Companion/Animal Friendship was janky. You've pointed out why.
The bonus feat list was a little weird, since some of the feats changed a lot in their 3.5 version. I don't remember details, but I remember some prerequisites being knocked out of whack.
I don't think the Dragon Magazine update to Spirit Ally is too weak, but I think it's inconsistent with how other material from OA was modified when it was put into print (See Spirit Binding in Comp Arcane v. Dragon Mag)
Polymorph Self was the big questionmark on the spell list that I don't think was mentioned in Dragon. I assume that's just Polymorph in 3.5, but that's a hell of a spell to sneak onto a spell list when there's ambiguity.


Shaman (Oriental Adventures): Shamans have a spell list that is a blend of druid and cleric, but they should not get all the spells clerics and druids do. Examine the spell lists of both those classes for good choices. Also, consider using the cleric domains presented in this book as shaman domains.
I'm a little cautious with this. I kind of think the Bite of the Were- line is exactly in the intersection of these three classes, but I'd feel dirty asking for that in a game I didn't run.

[Biggus]

So I would guess, stick to animalish spells, elemental spells, poisons, diseases. Maybe curse-like debuff (bane) as well. I don't know what other category druids fall under for their spells.

Looking at the shaman spell list, the most prominent categories seem to be:

Healing - they get the full range of cure, heal, restoration, resurrection etc spells like a cleric. Definitely their strongest area.

Defensive buffs - some but not all from the cleric list

Divinations - mostly non-combat ones

Animal

Summon/call

Alignment-based

Debuffs

They do have a smattering of other types (attack spells, offensive buffs, utility) but those seem to be the main ones.

[Fizban]

From my notes on things Clerics have that Druids and Shamans don't:

cleric vs shaman
-create water (but create spring at 2nd), light
-comprehend languages, magic weapon, remove fear
-align weapon (but honorable), consecrate, gentle repose, make whole, resist energy
-create food and water*, daylight, invisibility purge, (protection from energy present), water breathing
-death ward, dim anchor, GMW
-plane shift (sham 6), hallow, spell resistance
-forbiddence, heroes' feast*, word of recall


-also: dragon mag OA update makes no mention of shaman animal companion?
-but does add a number of spells to lists including dim lock to shaman
--but does not mention the changes to levels such as ethereal/jaunt/ness
-sham has sunbeam, why no light/daylight? or sunburst?
*shaman has sustain, much more zen: "guided meditation of fortitude"

high level shaman is basically cleric list minus the offense, but they could likely soak up some splat spells just fine (they have OA Rebuke (Med, stun 1d4+1 rounds), compare SpC/greater)
-MoF/SpC (arcane) Rebuke is daze 1/shaken+ concentration rolls at 2nd, greater cower 1d4 at 4th, final kills at 7th/daze 1 on success.

with holy smite/etc main, should have righteous smite, with a full cycle
-they might enjoy a blunt expansion into power words
-the lack of water/food out of nothing but also creating a spring suggests a more "from the earth" approach.
OA Shaman is missing less stuff compared to the Cleric than the Druid is, but still misses some stuff. If you give Druids the full 3.5 companion progress then Shaman ought to get it as well. I've got it written that bonus feats for OA Shaman can be chosen from the original or dragon mag update lists as desired (must still meet prerequisites), since they kinda took it a different direction.

They have a weird thing going on with lots of focus on alignment, with spirit stuff available, but very little else. A classical "does only x, y, and a bit of z" approach rather than the "every class get full access to one of the 2.5 lists" approach. Far more of a Cleric variant than Druid.

[daremetoidareyo]

OA Shaman is missing less stuff compared to the Cleric than the Druid is, but still misses some stuff. If you give Druids the full 3.5 companion progress then Shaman ought to get it as well. I've got it written that bonus feats for OA Shaman can be chosen from the original or dragon mag update lists as desired (must still meet prerequisites), since they kinda took it a different direction.

They have a weird thing going on with lots of focus on alignment, with spirit stuff available, but very little else. A classical "does only x, y, and a bit of z" approach rather than the "every class get full access to one of the 2.5 lists" approach. Far more of a Cleric variant than Druid.

Celestial domain, command or rebuke spirits

that is all outsiders
fey,
elementals,
and other stuff

I dislike the need to meet prereqs because stunning fist has horrendous prereqs.