Optimization When playing a Paladin - what are your reasons NOT to multiclass? [Archive]

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Wasp

2022-06-20, 06:09 AM

NeffariasBredd

2022-06-20, 06:14 AM

Jerrykhor

2022-06-20, 06:18 AM

The awesome auras of course. 6 gets you flat bonus to all saves, and 10 gets you immunity to Frightened. Lots of big monsters at higher levels spam Frightened condition on the whole party. 11 gets you Improved Divine Smite, which is decent, and 13 gets you Find Greater Steed.

Beyond that, its hard to justify staying Paladin, depending on your Sacred Oath feature i guess.

nickl_2000

2022-06-20, 06:23 AM

-18th level aura distance is cool.
-Find Greater Steed is really cool
-Cleansing Touch is quite powerful
-For RP reasons, making a pact with a potentially evil entity doesn't fit the characters personality.

ender241

2022-06-20, 06:29 AM

Find Greater Steed at 13, 30 foot auras at 18. Build 2 here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds) is a good example of the potential of a straight class paladin. It's definitely more doable if you have access to Str-boosting items.

Mastikator

2022-06-20, 06:29 AM

TBH I'm not 100% convinced multiclassing a paladin into sorc is better than single class. 1 level hexblade dip I can agree with.

However buying power from a sentient weapon or some raven queen or whatever is not very paladin-y so I feel the onus to explain is on the hexadin moreso than the single classed paladin.

Another thing to consider is that multiclassing almost always delays ASIs and paladins are MAD so that's very expensive, it might make sense for a character with really good rolls, on a point buy it's harder

Chaos Jackal

2022-06-20, 06:38 AM

Paladin is one of the most compelling non-full casters to take to 20, frankly. The base class has goodies for at least 14 levels (Aura of Protection, Aura of Courage, find greater steed, Cleansing Touch, circle of power later on), decent passive scaling in higher levels thanks to Improved Divine Smite (second only to the fighter's third attack as far as tier 3 martial scaling goes) and slower but still existent spell level progression and the subclasses often offer really good stuff, particularly the extra aura at lv7 most of them get but also in many cases a solid lv15 feature and some of the best capstones in the game.

You can actually see that a lot in the popular paladin multiclasses; there's a lot of potential breakpoints. Some will take just two levels for smiting, others 6 for the aura, 7 for the second aura if the subclass offers one, 10 for the third, 11 for IDS, 13 for the steed... there are even those who'll make do with a couple Hexblade levels only. It's a really flexible multiclass precisely because there will nearly always exist something you might want.

Unlike something like a fighter or a barbarian, where you often get practically nothing of interest in tier 3 and tier 4 until the capstone, especially when it comes to the base chassis (but also plenty of subclasses), the paladin does have stuff to look forward to across most levels. Going paladin 20 is pretty good throughout its career, even from a strictly optimizing standpoint.

Guy Lombard-O

2022-06-20, 06:51 AM

I think paladins are just pretty strong and progress nicely overall. Since my games have never gone past 13, I'll list my reasons from 6-13.

All levels: LoHs pool improves with each level 35+ HP of healing with one action can feel like a decent choice even in combat.

7: paladin auras. Some are good, some are meh but combo well with certain build choices or feats. For instance, you can build a good first-strike dexadin with Watchers, or a semi-skirmisher with Vengeance + PAM (especially if your DM lets your Steed use the reaction movement).

8: ASI. On a straight paladin, you're so ASI hungry it hurts. Each additional +1 to your auras is a bonus to the whole party, and delaying them can feel almost selfish.

9: 3rd level slots, and the actual 3rd level spells to go with them. The paladin list isn't fantastic here, but it's solid. Spirit Shroud, Aura of Vitality and Revivify are all good picks and uses for your concentration. Also a few subclass standouts.

10: Aura of Courage. If you're fighting dragons, this at least keeps you in the fight. Maybe your closest (in fireball/breath weapon formation) allies as well? Or at least, it helps give your allies time to pull their sh*t together while you hold the line. Situational? Yes. Too situational? Depends upon the campaign & DM, but it shouldn't be. Strong? Absolutely.

11: Improved Divine Smite: I mean, we all know it's good. Pairs well with the best martial feats like PAM and (to a lesser extent) GWM.

12: ASI again. Your third (and likely final) one. You get it before the game peters out. Maybe take Mounted Combatant, in anticipation of....

13: You made it to the BBEG boss fight! Fly around at top speeds without concentration on your FGS! (Oh, and you have 4th level smite slots now).

Is it flat out better than Sorcadin? Dunno. For levels 7-11? I'd say probably yes IMHO, unless you really just like Smiting all the time. Is a 1-2 level dip in Hexblade always tempting and probably an upgrade mechanically. Probably yes. But it really, really isn't mandatory.

Chronos

2022-06-20, 06:53 AM

So as not to miss the obvious:
You might stay pure paladin because your table doesn't use multiclassing.

Alternately, your table might allow multiclassing in general, but ban Hexblade, or Hexblade multiclasses, because multiclassing Hexblade is just brokenly good (mechanically, at least). As an aside, in a game that doesn't allow multiclassing, Hexblade is decent, but not broken.

Selion

2022-06-20, 07:08 AM

Kane0

2022-06-20, 07:41 AM

I want fighting style and smites
Then I want an ASI
Then I want Extra Attack and second level spells
Then I want Aura
Then I want my subclass feature
Then i want another ASI
Then I want third level spells
Then I want improved divine smite

Then the campaign is probably close to the end, but an extra ASI and 4th level spells are juicy too

Willie the Duck

2022-06-20, 08:02 AM

Fundamentally, I think the primary reason* is that the MC builds work a lot better when you get to create them at level X than when you actually have to play through all the levels and deal with jankiness, levels which don't add much, etc.
*outside of non-optimization reasons like roleplaying ones, table not using multiclassing, not wanting everyone to think you are just making an internet prefab optimized build, etc.

Let's say you are doing a bog-standard traditional half-elf Vengeance paladin6/divine soul sorcerer 14 (starting attributes 16 10 14 8 12 16). At Pal6, instead of going to Pal7, you take sorc1. You get two less HP ; 5 less lay on hands; no relentless avenger; favored of the gods; cure wounds, 4 cantrips, and 2 1st level sorcerer spells; and the same spell slots. Sure, that probably means you now have a ranged cantrip, shield, and absorb elements (and a paladin spell that can be swapped in now that you always have cure wounds memorized), but in all likelihood you (and your party) have already had to figure out how to live with you now having great ranged options, you have a good AC, and your saves are pretty good as well. At level 8 you now have slots like a 5th level caster (so 3rd level slots), but are now an ASI behind, so it isn't clear if you are ahead. At level 9, you get sorcerer level 2 spells, but actively lose paladin level 3 spells. You don't get level 3 spells (such as haste) until 2 levels later at level 11 (at which point you're doing +1d8 extra per attack without even smiting). The sorcadin gets L4 spells at 13, same time as the paladin. Honestly, after the level 1 dip for cantrips/shield/absorbE, it isn't really obvious that a sorcadin gets something a paladin doesn't get until level 15* when they finally get L6 spells
*Less if you don't go to L6 in paladin, but in that case the opportunity costs should be straightforward

TBH I'm not 100% convinced multiclassing a paladin into sorc is better than single class. 1 level hexblade dip I can agree with.
Yeah, I mean, there's not much to say about this. Everyone knows this exploit, and if your table includes it, it's hard to ignore from an optimizations perspective(unless you are doing a 2H weapon build, as a 3-level dip can be prohibitiv).

RogueJK

2022-06-20, 08:48 AM

While I don't think every Paladin needs to multiclass completely out of Paladin after any certain level, I do think just about any Paladin benefits from dipping 1 level of Sorcerer or Warlock (not necessarily Hexblade alone, although that has extra synergy). This is best taken at Level 1 (if you don't want/need Heavy Armor and aren't starting at Level 1), Level 3 (after Paladin 2's spellcasting and smite), or Level 7 (after Paladin 6's aura). I tend to dip at Level 1 or 3 most of the time.

1) It adds access to CHA-based ranged cantrips, which shores up a noticeable weakness of Paladins when it comes to ranged/flying enemies. Unless you're playing a DEXadin, it can be frustrating to be trying to hurl Javelins at Disadvantage at ranged/flying enemies. (This positive is slightly offset now that Paladins have access to the Blessed Warrior fighting style, although Eldritch Blast/Chill Touch are superior choices to Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead in most situations.)

2) It adds access to defensive spellcasting, such as Shield/Absorb Elements/Armor of Agathys, all of which are great on a melee Paladin.

3) You have access to Booming Blade, which can combos nicely with Warcaster on a Paladin to make them tanky/sticky, plus helps carry a Paladin over for the extra level delay in their Extra Attack if they dip before Paladin 5.

4) You have access to additional utility spellcasting. Something like Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Minor Illusion, Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, or Silent Image can come in clutch at certain times.

5) You get additional handy subclass abilities, since both Warlock and Sorcerer get their subclasses at Level 1. These run the gamut from fun and flavorful (Great Old One, Archfey, Genie, Aberrant Mind, etc.) to powerful and useful (Hexblade, Fathomless, Undead, Clockwork Soul, Divine Soul, Shadow, etc.) And many of these scale based on Proficiency, not Sorcerer/Warlock level. Hexblade, Undead, and Divine Soul have the most synergy with Paladin.

6) You can potentially start at Sorcerer 1 for CON save proficiency, which is extra nice on Concentration-heavy caster Paladin subclasses like Conquest.

RogueJK

2022-06-20, 09:17 AM

However buying power from a sentient weapon or some raven queen or whatever is not very paladin-y

Depends on the Paladin. Keep in mind that in 5E, Paladins are no longer shoehorned into being strictly "Mr. Lawful-Good-y-Two-Shoes" like in previous editions. And even if they were... as the old saying goes: "Good isn't always Nice".

It's relatively easy to see a Conquest or Vengeance Paladin striking a bargain with a sentient weapon or any other patron for extra power to achieve their goals

The Celestial patron is easy to fit in with the traditional "Lawful Good Holy Warrior Paladin" trope, if that's what you're wanting to play.

Ancients Paladin and Archfey Warlock also mesh nicely, and there are good-aligned Archfey like Titania, Oberon, or Lurue.

And there are good-aligned Genies as well. Like most Djinn, for example, though there can be good-aligned examples of other types of Genies too.

Even the Undying patron can fit with a traditional Good Paladin. While the flavor text is about an evil undead patron, the actual Undying class abilities are counterintuitively geared more towards dealing with the spirits of the dead, combatting undead, and healing. There are non-evil undead out there, like Baelnorns, and there are other ways to become immortal/undying besides being undead. Or you could stretch it even further and have their patron be some emissary of the Good/Neutral God of the Dead. The "evil undead lich/vampire patron" subclass is now the Undead patron, rather than the Undying patron. In my mind, Undead is to Undying as the cleric Death Domain is to Grave Domain.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-20, 10:04 AM

Level 6, 10, 11, and 18 are good reasons. Levels 7, 15 and 20 are good depending on your subclass. Auras in particular are the biggest reason, many of them are character defining traits.

Paladin has a strength that few other classes have in that there are no dead levels, they're always gaining something useful, and the features they gain are usually meaningful improvements of existing abilities.

Hexblade is a really powerful dip for Paladin and it gives the Paladin parts of the multiclass more power. Sorcadin tend to focus more on casting for the noticeable power increases and it ends up being more of a Sorcerer than a Paladin unless you go for a heavy dip of 6+ levels into Paladin.

strangebloke

2022-06-20, 10:07 AM

Because your DM nerfed/banned hexblade for being a stupid one-level dip that doesn't fit flavor and is also overpowered, and other MC options usually aren't much better than straight paladin.

Ionathus

2022-06-20, 10:21 AM

Numbers aside, I think it's kind of fun that Paladins are all about "stick to your oath" and therefore, flavor-wise perhaps make the least sense to justify a multiclass, but seem to be one of the most MC'ed classes in practice.

I'm almost certain that it's giving WotC too much credit to suggest they intentionally designed paladin with all of these breakpoints where you'll be tempted to stray...but it's still an interesting harmony of flavor and mechanics.

Demonslayer666

2022-06-20, 10:21 AM

I would likely stay in paladin for roleplaying reasons, rather than for a particular paladin feature.

nickl_2000

2022-06-20, 10:24 AM

I would likely stay in paladin for roleplaying reasons, rather than for a particular paladin feature.

That was my plan with mine (although the DM got bored after level 5, he loved Dragonheist, hated Mad Mage). Sure I theorycrafted to see what would happen, but the character just wasn't the type to make a pact or focus on magic powers. He enjoyed smashing things with his hammer to much.

OldTrees1

2022-06-20, 12:33 PM

Paladin is a really well designed class. Every level of Paladin of Ancients from 1st to 14th has something I want that feels like a level appropriate feature. Multiclassing sacrifices the features of some high level in exchange for the, hopefully more synergistic, features of some low level.

Consider a Paladin 12 choosing between Paladin 13 or Paladin 12 / Hexblade 1. They are choosing between permanent flight and 4th level spells vs all of Hexblade 1's goodies. Honestly Paladin 13 is really tempting.

This is how multiclassing can be balanced, you make high level features be valuable. 5E struggles with that in Tier 3-4 but Paladin gets to 14th level before my pessimistic judgement finds them wanting. (For context Fighter/Rogue only reach 11th and Warlock only gets to 9th).

When playing a Paladin I would need a reason TO multiclass. I have a couple reasons*, but the default is single classed Paladin because Paladin was that well designed for 1st-14th.

* I admit Paladin/Warlock had nice thematics for a Paladin going insane while staying true to their warping convictions. It also allowed me to convert a 1/2 divine daily caster into a 1/3 divine short rest caster (I don't like daily abilities).

Corran

2022-06-20, 01:05 PM

Hi everyone

There seems to be some agreement that people who like to optimize their character tend to want to multiclass out of Paladin at some point (dip Hexblade or take Sorcerer levels after Pal6 or similar) to optimize their character.

What are or would be reasons for you to NOT multiclass out of Paladin if multiclassing is allowed?

If there are already features or subclasses that make you consider staying Paladin, I would love to hear them.

And if there aren't any reasons that would make you want to stay Paladin with the existing stuff, what would a Paladin (subclass) need to offer for you to consider playing as one till the end?
Well, mostly th aesthetics and feel I'd want out of a given character. But putting that aside, in order not to multiclass I've got to get or at least aim for something that makes up for what I would be giving up by not multiclassing.

Main reasons to multiclass? Depends on the multiclassing. There are lots of options but I'll stick to what I think of as the strongest. Three cases. 1) Small hexblade dip. 2) Considerable sorcerer mc. 3) 1&2 combined.

1) Hexblade. In order of significance. Gives you a strong ranged attack which paladins were lacking before relatively recently. Now they get a fighting style for that, it's not as good, but at the same time it helps you stick to the main class. Still, EB along with invocations is plenty good. Secondly, the shield spell. That's a lot of (carefully applied) durability that can really make a difference. It comes with rechargable spell slots that make you not mind that pact magic does not play well with spellcasting, cause these 1st level slots are that crucial to you simply because shield (along with a few more spells that try to come close) use these slots. Thirdly, SADness and access to scagtrips makes for a cost effective way to build for offense while letting you boost defense (and control/debuffing/buffing in case you also throw sorcerer in the mix) with the spare points. If you can do comparatively well with scagtrips compared to what a far more offensively optimized build can do (IDS, PAM, maybe sentinel or GWM depending on the oath), and you can do that with minimal investment, while using the spare build points to add a considerable amount of defense and something else, well, that's very tempting.

2) Sorcerer. Similarly to warlocks you get a ranged attack (not as good as EB + invocations), but still, a considerable upgrade to what paladins used to have. Again, this becomes less important since now you technically have the option to spend a fighting style for something comparable (but not as good IIRC) as, say, a chill touch. Secondly, shield. Same as above. Along with other cheap defense and combat utility/maneuvrability options (eg absorb elements, isty step, etc). Third, scagtrips, same as above. Cost effective offense options allow you to spend your build points for other things, like AoE's (eg fireball), additional anti-caster abilties (eg counterspell as a backup to smite, or vice versa), debuffing options (eg polymorph), buffing options (eg polymorph again), control (eg hypnotic pattern). And then there are synergies, between stuff like CD's, spells and metamagic options, which make for decent tactics. Stuff like the much discussed quicken an upcast hold person and smite (to deal with mutiple very dangerous humanoids). Or slightly less niche stuff, like using a crown paladin's champion's challenge to (attempt to) keep lots of opponents focused at you, is a very nice pair with the likes of blur/shield/(sanctuary if ds). Or if you are a conquest paladin and you use conquering presense, then following that up with a quickened web or spirit guardians (depending on who wa freightened and who was not) is extremelly nice (same if pairing fear with careful on that same character, assuming your DM does not rule very favourably on how aura of courage interacts with fear effects that have already landed). Or if you are a vengeace GWM paladin then quickening a bless is very desirable, or better yet, twinning a haste (assuming the risk is worth it) if you are anyway using haste and you've got a rogue or another ally in the party who can make a great use of the buff (either for damage or for added mobility). Etc etc.

3) It combines 1&2. There are diminishing returns (eg ranged attack impovement and shield accessible by both options), though if you are hungry for a very good ranged attack (with some control on top of it) and some added defense fuel (pact magic slots) you may not mind.

This is the most common reason why paladins mc away, and although the bump in smite fuel is noticeable -but not amazing- at the lower levels, it's mostly about a matter of patience IMO. Because single class paladins catch up and go beyong what multiclassing will get you. IDS along with PAM (and probably sentinel or GWM depending on the oath picked) is the way to go for smiting IMO, with vengeance and I think glory being somewhat better a supporting this approach. And if you go up to paladin 11 and you are intent on smiting, it's hard not to go after the greater steed which will allow you some very necessary mobility for being in and out of melee as needed so you can smite better (even if better in some cases means at less cost to your HP; other times it means just giving you the option to smite while you wouldn't be able to). And if you are at paladin 13 and you've already decided on a melee-smite approach as your go to thing in combat, multiclassing becomes less important than going for the higher level paladin benefits (because they are closer and thus more easily justified to get since investing in another class means playing with a lower ceiling, also because those other stuff that another class can give you are not going to be that important if you are mostly smiting anyway). Along the way you get more stuff that will be mre useful for a melee character (eg more HP, more lay on hands points, more fightery options -eg oath features and spells like holy weapon- than you would if you were start taking caster levels -with some notable exeptions like the shield spell, but the mobility of a mount may counteract that to a small extent.

Anyway. In a vacum it's hard to say if the multiclassing options are better. Because in a vacuum you dont necessarily know how much you'll need a strong ranged attack, or the shield spell, or anything else you could get by multiclassing but not by a single class build. If say, you are playing in a party where everyone is an archer of some sort, then you'll really need a strong ranged attack (so that you can contribute significantly to engaging with the whole party in range) and/or you'll need the added durability packed into the shield spell as a minimum for tanking on behalf of everyone and/or you'll need some spells like expeditious retreat/ blur/ web/ banishment for skirmishing, defense, control, threat removal, etc. And even if the paladin can get you something that can try to imitate such things, you'll probably want the imporoved versions. And if the paladin can get you some of these things at a high level (eg find steed, banishment, etc), they are important enough that you'd want them sooner.

Conversly, if you are playing with a party where none of these things are as important, then they can still be useful but nowhere near as before. In such case it might be far more preferable to aim for a better dpr (via IDS and feats), or aim for a greater steed (that you may want for either aggressive -most likely for you though it can be useful for allies too- or defensive -most likely allies though it can be useful for you too- mobility, or more lay on hands points, 5th level spells, etc.

In a vacuum more rounded is better. And in practice it's not that infrequent that more rounded is better, but not always. Better in this context does not translate to a better average performance, it means less likely to "lose". A lot of it comes down to how people like short terms benefits over longer term ones (even if the waiting is worth it). Also some of it certainly came down to people liking to experiment with a new system that does offer some character customization but multiclassing is certainly a big proponent of said customization (searching for synergies and gimmicks and trying them out to see if they are as good as you thought them to be can be fun, sometimes in a frustrating sort of way, but still fun).

I've played a fair share of sorcadins, but ultimately the power difference compared to a singleclass paladins would only be felt by me if I could use the added customization to build around needs created by the party set up. As characters in a vacuum they are comparable. My main reasons for sticking (character aesthetics aside) to a single class build have been the following:
1) Party and usual encounter set up didn't make me want to optimize functions that are satisfied better by muticlassing (eg ranged attacks, defense, AoE damage/control and perhaps quicker access to a strong single target CC - in some very extreme cases maybe buffing too).
2) Party set up made me want to rush paladin 9 (aside: I always thought a minimum of paladin 6 to be a given) for revivify and aura of vitality (in some cases dispel magic and some oath specific spells; most oaths have at least one 3rd level spell that is maybe worth going after through paladin levels).
3) After paladin 9 it gets trickier staying invested. IDS and fnd greater steed are the two main motivators, eventually along with 5th level spells (some good options there, upcast banishment included) and maybe some oath features. Though IDS loses some of its appeal since cantrips (EB, scagtrips) offer a very good progression at low build cost, so unless you are really optimizing for damage it may not be that essential.

The way to make single class more appealing IMO, is to throw in a few more carrots. You dont have to overdo it, IMO singleclass paladins are plenty strong. You just need a few select things. Like the new fighting styles. Having the option to pick up a fighting style that makes you better with thrown weapons is a good way not to find yourself desperately needing to multiclass for a decent ranged attack. Throwing weapons does not have to be as good as cantrips (though cantrips should probably be scaled down a nocth, but that's a different conversation), since picking it up means that you get to advance in your main class, which if alluring enough (ie a few more carrots down the line), it's going to be enough to make up for spending a fighting style insead of a level or two away from your main class. Same goes with the fighting style that allows you to pick up a cantrip (eg sacred flame, toll the dead). Though I dont like thematically the idea of having my paladins spam cantrips, the idea is sound mechanically. Maybe they should add another fighting style allowing you to unequip/equip a shield faster so you can use bows more readily.

Another way to make single class progression more desirable, is to lower the value of shield on gishes. Simple as that.

Another way to make singleclass more desirable, is to make IDS more important. Not by powering it up, it's fine as it is. But by making cantrips weaker (lower scaling or something else, I dunno), you are essentially reducing the value of the alternative to IDS, which is a much more cost effective at will dpr (EB, gfb) along with significantly imporved OA's (BB).

Then probaly add a few more things in the 4th level paladin spells. I am definitely forgetting something, but I cannot recall any options that stand out too much.

Increasing the aura radius even further than 30 feets could also be nice (though it might step a little in the toes of inspiration).

Otherwise, and I am allowing me some room for error here cause I've mosty thought about them and not played them as much, the capstones are very nice and they are quite tempting for hitting level 20. You could lay a few more carrots along the way, but giving alternatives to ranged attacks (like the thrown weapon fighting style) can be enough as paladins are quite strong already and they wouldn't necessarily need better 4th level spells. It's mostly a case of devaluing things like shield, EB and scagtrips (or cantrips in general) that would carry most of the load. And even with these in play, singleclass paladins arenot necessarily weaker (though they will be if what you should be after because of party/usual encounters set up is something you easily/cheaply gain only by multiclassing). So, my bottom line. Even something as frontloaded as the hexblade dip is not necessarily leading to a more powerful character. But, it's frontloaded enough and offers you with options that are either clear imporvements and at the same time extremelly cost effective, or offers you options where you had none (and going from 0 to 1 can be extremelly important), that a lot of the time dipping (even late in the game) is going to be better than staying singleclass. Not always, but often. It's not a hige problem, and both IME and IMO it's nowhere near the problem people are making it out to be, but the fact is that some reworks in things like the shield spell, EB and genrally cantrips could be worth doing anyway. And if you do them, then it will just happen to make singleclass paladin the better option more often than they are now.

10: Aura of Courage. If you're fighting dragons, this at least keeps you in the fight. Maybe your closest (in fireball/breath weapon formation) allies as well? Or at least, it helps give your allies time to pull their sh*t together while you hold the line. Situational? Yes. Too situational? Depends upon the campaign & DM, but it shouldn't be. Strong? Absolutely.
Risky, but sticking to "fireball" formation could pay off against a dragon. In theory, aura of courage will neutralize firghtful presence entirely, and baiting a dragon to breathe on all of you could be a good thing if there's time to ready something like a wall of force. With these two abilities spent, the dragon is just a big bag of hp that strikes hard and the only thing that's left to do is just to keep it in engagement distance (and try to bring it down before the breath recharges if you want to avoid HP loss or if taking up on the dragon at lower levels than you should).

Of course such a thing carries plenty of risk simply by initiative being what it is on a d20 system, but there are enough already good caster options you would probably want to pick up anyway that will mitigate this risk. The real problem is finding a dragon that is young/inexperienced enough to fall for such tricks. But this is probably more table/DM dependent than dragon dependent anyway.

Pixel_Kitsune

2022-06-20, 01:09 PM

Honestly, Paladin is my favorite Martial. I've never seen a point to MCing beyond flavor or fluff with the exception of the Hexblade dip.

That said, I've played 2 Paladins to high levels. One I never went MC. I briefly pondered Fighter Dips for Action Surge and another fighting style, but ended up not doing it.

The other was a MC with the Hexblade Warlock. But it wasn't out of "Ooh look at the cool powers" It was because I was creating something like a Knight Radiant from Stormlight and one of their key flavor pieces is a bound spirit that can manifest as an ever changing weapon. So getting Pact of Blade was important.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-20, 01:14 PM

Progression is solid throughout 1-20, I prefer Dexadins and MCing makes that a pain with the Str 13 pre-req.

MrStabby

2022-06-20, 01:20 PM

I am honestly surprised there is not more love for cleansing touch. That level 14 ability is awesome, though I say this as a DM that throws a lot of spells at the party. Often it is like a dispell magic with no chance of failure.

Having got those sweet level 4 spells I would find it hard not to take... and if I got the ASI at 12 I would find it hard to say no to level 4 spells... and if I got IDS at 11 I am sure I could pick up a feat or stat increase I would love at 12... and if I got the no-fear aura at 10 then I would be hard pressed to find something I wanted more than IDS for the next level.

I think levels 7, 9 and 10 are possibly the only ones I might ever be tempted to skip out at. Even then 7 would be mandatory for some oaths, 9 would be important if the party had a weakness a spell would cover (like dispel magic, fear, counterspell or aura of vitality). 10 would depend on campaign style and party makeup (if I have a party nearly all proficient in wisdom saves it drops down the priority list.

The paladin is very overtuned, especially for T2.

x3n0n

2022-06-20, 01:39 PM

The paladin is very overtuned, especially for T2.

"Overtuned" meaning "stronger than it should be"/"deserves a nerf"?

I think of base Paladin as almost exactly where I want my power curve, especially in its "smoothness" and in its thematic richness and consistency.

RogueJK

2022-06-20, 02:17 PM

I think of base Paladin as almost exactly where I want my power curve, especially in its "smoothness" and in its thematic richness and consistency.

I agree on the smoothness and consistency. I wish that same power curve were present in every class (especially the martials, since that's already partly baked into spellcasters with spell level progression, even though that's not always the smoothest itself).

However, compared to other classes, one does have to admit that Paladin features lots of strengths and very few weaknesses/deficiencies.

In my experience, Paladins only have a couple of areas where they can struggle in combat - namely when dealing with hordes of mooks or ranged/flying enemies - and one or both of those can be addressed using specific races (Levistus Tiefling, MotM Kobold, Fizban's Dragonborn, Winged Tiefling, etc.), Blessed Warrior Fighting Style, and/or a 1 level Sorcerer/Warlock dip.

Angelalex242

2022-06-20, 02:48 PM

If you aren't multiclassing, it's because you saw those level 20 capstones and want to see how awesome they are.

Paladins have capstones worth using. Few other classes can say the same.

RogueJK

2022-06-20, 02:50 PM

Paladins have capstones worth using. Few other classes can say the same.

And fewer players/campaigns make it all the way to Level 20. So that's not as much of a concern in many situations.

I enjoy builds that have benefits that pay off early, over a larger portion of their adventuring career, rather than those that are potentially really cool once they finally come online in Tier 4 (if you get there).

MrStabby

2022-06-20, 02:50 PM

"Overtuned" meaning "stronger than it should be"/"deserves a nerf"?

I think of base Paladin as almost exactly where I want my power curve, especially in its "smoothness" and in its thematic richness and consistency.

I think whether you consider the palading well designed or poorly designed really depends on how much context you add.

Within the context of other characters that people might want to play at T2, it is well out ahead... indeed so far ahead it makes so many other options unattractive.

If there was inter-class balance to look at then I would say its very smooth and rich with abilities and is a nice design (say for an all paladin party).

The other class I would say this of is the rogue - though there it's weak relative to other classes but otherwise still doesa good job of having all the pieces come together into a nice package.

x3n0n

2022-06-20, 02:55 PM

I agree on the smoothness and consistency. I wish that same power curve were present in every class (especially the martials, since that's already partly baked into spellcasters with spell level progression, even though that's not always the smoothest itself).

However, compared to other classes, one does have to admit that Paladin features lots of strengths and very few weaknesses/deficiencies.

In my experience, Paladins only have a couple of areas where they can struggle in combat - namely when dealing with hordes of mooks or ranged/flying enemies - and one or both of those can be addressed using specific races (Levistus Tiefling, MotM Kobold, Fizban's Dragonborn, Winged Tiefling, etc.), Blessed Warrior Fighting Style, and/or a 1 level Sorcerer/Warlock dip.

I like that its trademark T2 features are the L2/3 spells and the Auras, many of which are at their best improving the party rather than just yourself, and that fixing the solo weaknesses takes real tradeoffs (like multiclassing or abandoning a "real" fighting style or a precious ASI). In addition, none of the remedies overshoot the mark to accidentally overshadow someone who specialized in that thing. (For example, a straight-classed Paladin will never be a better archer than a straight Fighter or Ranger with the Archery style...and that's good!)

It does what it says on the tin. :) If a new player said they were interested in a Paladin-like character, I would unreservedly recommend a Paladin as the best way to do that. There are not many concept/class pairings about which I would say that.

Angelalex242

2022-06-20, 03:04 PM

And fewer players/campaigns make it all the way to Level 20. So that's not as much of a concern in many situations.

I enjoy builds that have benefits that pay off early, over a larger portion of their adventuring career, rather than those that are potentially really cool once they finally come online in Tier 4 (if you get there).

Now now, I've played Paladins 1-20. Other than level 1, I'm quite happy with it.

Yakmala

2022-06-20, 07:12 PM

Waazraath

2022-06-22, 07:32 AM

In addition to all the good features that paladin has, and features that grow with paladin levels (Lay on hands), a reason is that multiclassing might get better somewhere in the future after X levels, it very rarely is at the level you start multiclassing. Assuming paladin as a starting point:
- you really want to go to lvl 5 for extra attack in one go;
- at level 5, you definitely want the saving throw aura bonus;
- at level 6, you most likely want the other aura at 7 (depending on subclass though
- at level 7, you want that ASI or feat at 8
- at 8, you want those lvl 3 spells known (unless you really spent everything on smite)
- after that, improved smite and find greater steed are getting in sight.

Continuing is better than switching, almost always. In other words: pally 6 is in general better than pally 5 / sor 1, and pally 8 is better than pally 5 / sor 3 (bar specific builds of course).

Dork_Forge

2022-06-22, 08:31 AM

Waazraath

2022-06-22, 09:17 AM

This is an excellent illustration of how tempting Paladin progression is. I'd hazard that the only class that might even tempt you in this way would be Fighter, given the die size and the severe front-loaded nature.

Thanks, and yeah, fighter is always tempting (especially a BM 3 dip for any character that wants to do weapon damage) - though in this case even fighter hurts a bit, cause the level 1 gains (fighting style and second wind) aren't all that, and you already have armor and shield proficiency. The one exception I forgot to mention in my previous post is Hexblade btw, cause making the pally single stat dependent is worth delay of class features, especially with some nice spells known and smite slots added for good measure.

KorvinStarmast

2022-06-22, 01:22 PM

The campaign doesn't last long enough to get to a spot where MC is a good idea.

animorte

2022-06-22, 05:02 PM

Assuming paladin as a starting point:
- you really want to go to lvl 5 for extra attack in one go;
- at level 5, you definitely want the saving throw aura bonus;
- at level 6, you most likely want the other aura at 7 (depending on subclass though
- at level 7, you want that ASI or feat at 8
- at 8, you want those lvl 3 spells known (unless you really spent everything on smite)
- after that, improved smite and find greater steed are getting in sight.

This was a wonderful example of class progression in 5e. It’s something they improved from 3.5e, in which there were a fair amount of dead levels.

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-06-22, 05:19 PM

Simple. 30’ aura > 10’ aura. You no longer need to have the entire party in fireball formation to get the benefits of your auras. And if you are already an 18th level Paladin, you might as well stick it out two more levels for the level 20 capstone ability, many of which are pretty good.

I wonder why this progression isn't more linear, like at least a 20' aura somewhere along the way. It could even be in 5' increments. These spikes are why people often multi-class out at the same levels.

Yakmala

2022-06-22, 05:55 PM

This is an excellent illustration of how tempting Paladin progression is. I'd hazard that the only class that might even tempt you in this way would be Fighter, given the die size and the severe front-loaded nature.

I'd say the Monk has just as many or even more temptations. I know the Monk class catches a lot of flack on these forums, but it's one of the best classes in the game when it comes to getting something new at nearly every level.

L1: Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts
L2: Ki, Unarmored Movement, +10 ft. movement
L3: Sub-Class Feature, Deflect Missiles
L4: ASI, Slow Fall
L5: Extra Attack, Stunning Strike
L6: Sub-Class Feature, Ki-Empowered Strikes, +15 ft. movement
L7: Evasion, Stillness of Mind
L8: ASI,
L9: Unarmored Movement Improvement
L10: Purity of Body, +20 ft. movement
L11: Sub-Class Feature
L12: ASI
L13: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
L14: Diamond Soul, +25 ft. movement
L15: Timeless Body
L16: ASI
L17: Sub-Class Feature
L18: Empty Body, +30 ft. movement
L19: ASI
L20: Perfect Self

There's almost always a good reason to get the next level of Monk.

bkwrm79

2022-06-22, 09:13 PM

I'm playing (and loving) a Vengeance Paladin, only level 6 so far but looking down the list... there's neat stuff almost every level. Sure, I'm not sure the level 7 power will be that useful... but before and after that every level has a neat ability (Aura of Courage, Improved Divine Smite, Cleansing Touch), an ASI, or access to new spells, all the way up to a level 20 capstone that certainly sounds cool.

I'm not convinced that smiting a bit more via some Sorcerer levels would be worth the mechanical trade-off, even if it fit my character, which I don't think it would.

A level or two of Hexblade might have been worth considering before I bumped up my Strength, but I'm happy with the single-class route I'm following.

Also, while I love smiting (especially undead), the Paladin has access to some fantastic spells, including some that open up at higher levels.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-23, 08:51 AM

I'd say the Monk has just as many or even more temptations. I know the Monk class catches a lot of flack on these forums, but it's one of the best classes in the game when it comes to getting something new at nearly every level.

L1: Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts
L2: Ki, Unarmored Movement, +10 ft. movement
L3: Sub-Class Feature, Deflect Missiles
L4: ASI, Slow Fall
L5: Extra Attack, Stunning Strike
L6: Sub-Class Feature, Ki-Empowered Strikes, +15 ft. movement
L7: Evasion, Stillness of Mind
L8: ASI,
L9: Unarmored Movement Improvement
L10: Purity of Body, +20 ft. movement
L11: Sub-Class Feature
L12: ASI
L13: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
L14: Diamond Soul, +25 ft. movement
L15: Timeless Body
L16: ASI
L17: Sub-Class Feature
L18: Empty Body, +30 ft. movement
L19: ASI
L20: Perfect Self

There's almost always a good reason to get the next level of Monk.

I agree with you, one of the things that irritate me about people criticizing Monk features is that most classes don't even get anything to compare it to, it's essentially gravy features.

IMO the best examples of hard to depart progression in the game are probably the Artificer, Monk, and Paladin.

Gtdead

2022-06-24, 09:35 AM

For me it depends on mounted combat rules. If the mount can act on my own turn, which is my reading of the RAW, then single classed Paladin with a mounted style build is fairly good all around. I'm very fond of Vengeance Paladin with such a playstyle, cause mount + haste = lots and lots of movement that can be used to hit and run, chase after enemies in the back/break lines etc.

If the mount can't act on my own turn (another very popular reading of the RAW), then I don't really see any reason to stay as a single classed Paladin. The hexblade dip for EB is just too good on a mostly low mobility character, along with access to shield and CHA based attacks.

The sorcerer MC is a bit more involved. The Sorlockading variation is the cookie cutter currently, but it's a higher level build, so I don't care too much about it. Paladin 2-6/Sorcerer X is another build that I've played and I quite like it as a frontliner, due to the extreme defenses from access to shield, absorb elements and blur. A great duelist and depending on party needs, it can come fully online at level 5. Generally speaking though, the Hexblade dip is just too good to pass up, so I don't think I will play that one again any time soon.

Skrum

2022-06-24, 10:31 AM

I multiclass because I like multiclassing. If a build doesn't have some semi-unique pairing, a gimmick really, than I'm not very interested in playing that build.

I like playing builds that I feel like are "mine." Single class characters don't really do that for me.

Sception

2022-06-24, 12:16 PM

I mistly play Conquerors, and while they do multiclass well, they also have relevant features at most levels that make multiclassing a tough choice and justify going single classed instead.

Heavy armor proficiency at level 1
Divine Smite, Bless, and Wrathful Smite at level 2
Conquering Presence and Armor of Agathys at level 3
ASI at level 4
Extra attack, Find Steed, & Spiritual Weapon at level 5
Aura of Protection at level 6
Aura of Conquest at level 7
ASI at level 8
Spirot Shroud and Fear at level 9
Aura of Courage at level 10 - a ribbon for most paladins, but with conquerors liking to throw party unfriendly Fear cones around this is a bigger deal
Improved Divine Smite at level 11
ASI at level 12
Improved Find Steed at kevel 13

So its not till level 14 where you get what feels like an actual dead level, and most campaigns are done before then. Sure some of this you can get from a multiclass, but it comes with delays.

Yeah, you can get asi's elsewhere, but unless you jump out at 4, 8, or 12 you're delaying those orecious ASIs by doing so, and 5, 9, & 13 all have particularly nice stuff you'd be missing.

Yeah, you can get Fear from a multiclass to use with Aura of Conquest, but AoC is at level 7, fo Fear is only 2 paladon levels away, where you'd have to wait for 5 levels of sorcerer or warlock.

Again, that's not to say multiclass conqueror is bad or doesn't work. A hex dip solves some of the build's long term stat issues, while also helping out with encounter resources & damaging fear immune foes, while multiclassing out into clockwork sorcerer gives you tools to cancel enemy advantage on saves vs your frighten effects, or even to create disadvantage. But paladin levels are consistantly good enough for long enough that if you don't want to bother with multiclassing you're not making an obvioud mistake of any kind.

Other Paladin subclasses vary though. They often have features as strong or stronger than conquest, but rarely as consistent. Eg Vengeance has an amazing channel divinity & fantastic oath spells, arguable better than conquest by a fair bit. But that level 7 feature isn't doing much, so are you sure you don't want to multiclass out after level 6?

Angelalex242

2022-06-24, 02:37 PM

14 Isn't a dead level! Cleansing Touch removes practically every negative status, by touch. It's extremely useful against all the shenanigans high level monsters can do!