OOTS #1260 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[kaoskonfety]

Followed immiedialty by heated speculation on the new information provided for the friendly Neighbourhood Monster in the Dark.

[RMS Oceanic]

Xykon keeping focused on the important stuff

[Shale]

Quick, everybody comb through every sourcebook you can find for references to lifecycle-related insatiable hunger!

[Beni-Kujaku]

Soooo... Are we safe to assume that Xykon has some sort of Disintegration Finesse feat?

[Precure]

Yes yes yes

[Schroeswald]

It’s the MiTD! I’ve missed him!

[RMS Oceanic]

Soooo... Are we safe to assume that Xykon has some sort of Disintegration Finesse feat?

Disintegrate's normally a green beam, maybe it's just a different spell.

[Kantaki]

Followed immiedialty by heated speculation on the new information provided for the friendly Neighbourhood Monster in the Dark.

Maybe it's gonna pupate. Or molt or something.

And Xykon's a artist. Huh. Kinda unexpected.
Neat trick though. :smallcool:

[Windscion]

Xykon knows.
He's just playing along for the lulz.

[Fyraltari]

So what are we thinking? Going through puberty/metamorphosis or is his hunger somehow tied to alignment.

Also openly contradicted Xykon about killing people, our boy is getting bolder and bolder!

Xykon keeping focused on the important stuff
Laser-focused.

[Verdruss]

I feel that's a new one for MitD. Before it was basically trying to protect O-Chul but it wasn't really clear how its other views regarding killing and stuff changed.

Now it seems O-Chul came through to it on a much mure substantial basis.

[Yxylu]

I’m not sure what the Monster in the Darkness considers a “little horn,” but can we assume he’s talking about the bugbear in panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1203.html)? He has three horns and swoopy stripes under his eyes.

[goldenPony]

Finally after 10+ years of reading I've created my forum profile!

Isn't the food thing related to a hostage scenario where Xykon keeps his prisoner aka the monster, always hungry to think less and devour more for his evil goals?

Edit: The in-comic drawing is fun but dark as hell. Isn't X letting Redcloak know he knows and he's just messing with him?

Maybe he has everyone on his "team" figured out, we still haven't seen what mind-blowing trick he's pulled off since his pocket demi-plane fortress travel, have we? He isn't empty-handed.

PD: When did he figure there were heroes sniffing around? It's kind of chilling, how much does he actually know??

[dancrilis]

Xykon is great - panel 9 may imply that he is well onto the Monster in the Darkness's shenanigans but just doesn't care.

[Windscion]

Edit: The in-comic drawing is fun but dark as hell. Isn't X letting Redcloak know he knows and he's just messing with him?
Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

[Psyren]

Xykon needs to be unmade like yesterday. There is no negotiating with that thing.

[Peelee]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

Even if that is his plan (likely not), it probably wouldn't work as he'd almost certainly be eliminated.

[Shining Wrath]

TEAM MITD: ASSEMBLE!
What creatures view dwarves as a delicacy?

Secondly: what could possibly be filling MitD up? Is it an ingredient, as Xykon seems to believe? Or has he stopped growing?

Also, how many spell slots did Xykon just go through creating rude graffitti?

[Resileaf]

PD: When did he figure there were heroes sniffing around? It's kind of chilling, how much does he actually know??

When a couple of dwarves showed up out of nowhere. He's a self-aware villain, he knows the signs of hero involvement!

[hamishspence]

Interesting look for the Demon Roaches' speech bubbles - did they have them in any previous strips - or was it always "text, but no bubble"?

[Kaed]

You know, I can't really put my finger on it but this is the first time in a while that Xykon hasn't really come across as very funny. The vibe I'm getting here isn't playful playful maliciousness so much as just that he's horrible and doesn't really care about anything except transient self gratification. But I already knew he was like that so...?

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.

[Fyraltari]

Finally after 10+ years of reading I've created my forum profile!
Welcome!


Isn't the food thing related to a hostage scenario where Xykon keeps his prisoner aka the monster, always hungry to think less and devour more for his evil goals?
No, until recently Xykon did not limit at all the MitD's access to food and he was still constantly hungry.


Edit: The in-comic drawing is fun but dark as hell. Isn't X letting Redcloak know he knows and he's just messing with him?
How so? It just shows Xykon bullying Redcloak, like he's always done.


Maybe he has everyone on his "team" figured out,
Most likely, yes.



PD: When did he figure there were heroes sniffing around?


When he stumbled on his team fighting dwarven Clerics.

[Xihirli]

Finally after 10+ years of reading I've created my forum profile!

Isn't the food thing related to a hostage scenario where Xykon keeps his prisoner aka the monster, always hungry to think less and devour more for his evil goals?

Edit: The in-comic drawing is fun but dark as hell. Isn't X letting Redcloak know he knows and he's just messing with him?

Maybe he has everyone on his "team" figured out, we still haven't seen what mind-blowing trick he's pulled off since his pocket demi-plane fortress travel, have we? He isn't empty-handed.

PD: When did he figure there were heroes sniffing around? It's kind of chilling, how much does he actually know??

My guess as to when he found out there were other heroes? Either he remembered Durkon and pretended not to, or he invisibly listened in on Durkon's meeting with Redcloak and pretended to show up later.
Xykon is smarter than he acts. How much of his "I forgot who my enemies are" does he do because it's funny / to make Redcloak underestimate him, and how much of it is genuine?


Xykon knows.
He's just playing along for the lulz.

Before, I didn't think Xykon would have had the temper to wait so long to kill Redcloak if he already knew. We know he's suspected at least since he had Tsukiko look at his half of the ritual... has he known ever since Redcloak confessed to murdering her? If so, then why trust the phylactery Redcloak gave him?
But with the suggestion that he could be planning to wait it out in his fortress... yeah, I could see that.

But he also must be planning to act fast, right? If I'm Redcloak and I see that drawing, my immediate assumption would be "jig's up, time to run off and change my... and use my actual name that I never told Xykon." Xykon turning over this card must mean he's planning to kill Redcloak next time he sees him, right?


You know, I can't really put my finger on it but this is the first time in a while that Xykon hasn't really come across as very funny. The vibe I'm getting here isn't playful playful maliciousness so much as just that he's horrible and doesn't really care about anything except transient self gratification gratification. But I already knew he was like that so...?

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.

Yeah, that's what I'm gathering. He's being unsettling here. Part of the facade is dropping. I just don't know why.



Secondly: what could possibly be filling MitD up? Is it an ingredient, as Xykon seems to believe? Or has he stopped growing?

I think it's just showing character development. I don't know if he's necessarily lying so Xykon doesn't feed him sapient creatures, but I interpreted this as a sign that he doesn't want to.


Even if that is his plan (likely not), it probably wouldn't work as he'd almost certainly be eliminated.
I don't necessarily agree that Xykon couldn't hypothetically hide in the Astral Fortress until the next world comes along, but it does seem unlikely that we're teasing that as the villain's plan when we know his phylactery isn't there. If Xykon knows everything we do, then he knows Redcloak is hiding his phylactery, maybe the only thing he truly cares about. If he knew that, Redcloak would be dead. Full stop, we saw what a panic it sent him into to just have it be in an unknown area presumably not full of hostiles. If his lieutenant betrayed him and kept secret the object needed to kill him? No, it's over. Xykon won't take chances in that situation, he kills Redcloak, traps his soul and tortures it for information.
So Xykon doesn't know that. But if he knows that Redcloak's betraying him in a more vague sense, as he seems to be hinting, and found that out just recently... does he have a plan? If he just kills Redcloak and moves on, most likely outcome is that the gods nuke the world with him on it. Or at least, his phylactery on it.

He has really enjoyed dungeon crawling. Maybe he just wants to do that for a few years.

[goldenPony]

When a couple of dwarves showed up out of nowhere. He's a self-aware villain, he knows the signs of hero involvement!

Doh, I had already forgotten about that bit in the first place and the chase to hise :smallbiggrin:



Welcome!


No, until recently Xykon did not limit at all the MitD's access to food and he was still constantly hungry.


How so? It just shows Xykon bullying Redcloak, like he's always done.


Most likely, yes.




When he stumbled on his team fighting dwarven Clerics.

Thanks for the welcome and the info! Maybe he's just hit young adulthood then.

You could say it's just random bullying but if X does know about RedCloak's plan or at least simply knows that he's obviously going to act up somehow, this is a really great way to mess with him.

Like others have said, Xykon feels much more unsettling and sinister as of late, can't help but woder if he has something else in mind when saying that the MitD would never remind him of info he wanted or something like that.

Only thing is that he hasn't been portrayed as being very smart or calculating, but he's still a murderous maniac knowing he's with another sort of maniac going for one single all powerful gate spell thingee.

Maybe he's just being an old fool but you never know, all it takes is a few moments of doubt on things he cannot risk from either the MitD or the Gobbo to start getting all paranoid and whack with mind games.

It doesn't taking being a genius to do all this, just feeling an important threat and some justified paranoida is all it takes for an average brain to get all whack with mind games.

Maybe when he says he can get rid of him and replace him with another caster he felt cozier in the middle of his gobbo keep than right now in dungeons that are challenging some days (he stated to have emptied his spell allotment before in those runs), while being surrounded.

If he feels unbeatable, what he's doing could just be an ego trip, he gets to control everyone and kick their asses in front of their noses kind of thing. That's almost textbook psycopath behavior. He's also been shown to be very bored.

All am saying is, there are plenty of possibly good reasons for Xykon to be messing with everyone right there in a sinister way and knowing so much more than he lets in, though maaaybe he's just being a murderous simpleton.

Not sure a murderous simpleton could have lasted that long though. I think he's way slicker than he lets on, think of when he lectured the dead epic wizards' souls about their lack of power.

[hungrycrow]

I think it's just showing character development. I don't know if he's necessarily lying so Xykon doesn't feed him sapient creatures, but I interpreted this as a sign that he doesn't want to.


If he just wanted to avoid eating dwarves, I don't think he'd elaborate so much on feeling this way for days.

I think the options are 1) character development is literally making him not hungry 2) the location is making him not hungry or 3) Haarko is just a really good cook.

Either way this adds fuel to the MitD threads.

[rredmond]

Quick, everybody comb through every sourcebook you can find for references to lifecycle-related insatiable hunger!
Ha ha, yes!


It’s the MiTD! I’ve missed him! and YES!

[Mic_128]

Interesting look for the Demon Roaches' speech bubbles - did they have them in any previous strips - or was it always "text, but no bubble"?

Just red speech bubbles with white text.


Even if that is his plan (likely not), it probably wouldn't work as he'd almost certainly be eliminated.

Assuming you mean by the Gods, but scheming by the IFC could disrupt things.



Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.

Perhaps it's due to things coming close to a head. Xykon's been knocking off doors and is close to the gate (he assumes) and now the heroes are here to stop him at the last minute. So, he's feeling more determined to take things serious and win.

[sengmeng]

My favorite part of the strip is that the graffiti is in the same style as the strip itself, which to me says Xykon's in-world skill level is on par with Michelangelo or da Vinci, and he just uses it for vandalization and mocking his minion.

[Fyraltari]

Interesting look for the Demon Roaches' speech bubbles - did they have them in any previous strips - or was it always "text, but no bubble"?
They point out they're new in the first panel.

You know, I can't really put my finger on it but this is the first time in a while that Xykon hasn't really come across as very funny. The vibe I'm getting here isn't playful playful maliciousness so much as just that he's horrible and doesn't really care about anything except transient self gratification gratification. But I already knew he was like that so...?

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.
I think it's intentional that he's just being sinister here, it contrasts with the MitD by reminding us how warped his sense of humor is that he thinks death and destruction are funny in themselves. The only bit I think was intended to get a laugh is his **** joke at the end, but these very rarely make me laugh.

My guess as to when he found out there were other heroes?
Pretty sure that he means the dwarves when he says "heroes sniffing around". Besides, he's got no reason to assume it's just the two of them.



Before, I didn't think Xykon would have had the temper to wait so long to kill Redcloak if he already knew. We know he's suspected at least since he had Tsukiko look at his half of the ritual... has he known ever since Redcloak confessed to murdering her?
I half-believe that Xykon kind of gave up on the Plan ages ago and is only carrying on because he can't thinknof anything more entertaining right now than tormenting Redcloak and wants to see the look on his fave when the goblin realizes it was all for nothing.


But he also must be planning to act fast, right? If I'm Redcloak and I see that drawing, my immediate assumption would be "jig's up, time to run off and change my... and use my actual name that I never told Xykon." Xykon turning over this card must mean he's planning to kill Redcloak next time he sees him, right?
Why would it? It's just a mean graffiti, it doesn't even reference the phylactery.


Yeah, that's what I'm gathering. He's being unsettling here. Part of the facade is dropping. I just don't know why.
I wouldn't say that Xykon is dropping the facade as much as the MitD is seeing him more and more for who he really is.



Full stop, we saw what a panic it sent him into to just have it be in an unknown area presumably not full of hostiles.
Correction, what sent him in a panic was his phylactery being this close to falling into the gaping maw of a reality-rending abomination.

If his lieutenant betrayed him and kept secret the object needed to kill him? No, it's over. Xykon won't take chances in that situation, he kills Redcloak, traps his soul and tortures it for information.
They've already been over this, destroying the phylactery isn't enough to kill Xykon. And Redcloak is mentally incapable of trying while the Plan is still pending. Not after what he did to Right-Eye.

Edit: Also, he already has a failsafe for goblin betrayal, he's brainwashed the MitD into eating Redcloak if he ever turns against him. Which might factor into why he wants the beast hungry, now that I think about it.

So Xykon doesn't know that. But if he knows that Redcloak's betraying him in a more vague sense, as he seems to be hinting, and found that out just recently... does he have a plan? If he just kills Redcloak and moves on, most likely outcome is that the gods nuke the world with him on it. Or at least, his phylactery on it.
Xykon isn't aware of the Godsmoot. As far as he knows, the gods haven't even tried to stop him in any way.

[Jacky720]

My guess as to when he found out there were other heroes? Either he remembered Durkon and pretended not to, or he invisibly listened in on Durkon's meeting with Redcloak and pretended to show up later.


Or it's just because Redcloak told him. (panel 5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html))

[H_H_F_F]

New MiTD info dump, or just character development? Hard to say.

Xykon's very interesting here. He's not really in his goody mood. More "power is power" mood. Wonder why...

[Mic_128]

My favorite part of the strip is that the graffiti is in the same style as the strip itself, which to me says Xykon's in-world skill level is on par with Michelangelo or da Vinci, and he just uses it for vandalization and mocking his minion.

You're not wrong. We've seen what bad art is before. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)

[Shining Wrath]

I think we should assume that Xykon believes himself to be as smart as he needs to be to achieve his goals. Which are, living forever and world domination. He may not actually be very smart in a book sense, but he may be a high-functioning sociopath, capable of deceiving everyone around him until he no longer needs them. He did not live long enough to become an epic level sorcerer without something that resembles intelligence, e.g., instinctive cunning. Therefore, I think it is likely that Xykon has figured out quite a bit more than he's letting on.

His plans almost certainly include killing Redcloak at the end of the ritual, and MitD as well. Redcloak has almost certainly figured that out, and has a plan to counter being murdered. MitD almost certainly has not figured that out.

[Psyren]

Soooo... Are we safe to assume that Xykon has some sort of Disintegration Finesse feat?


Disintegrate's normally a green beam, maybe it's just a different spell.

My guess is Scorching Ray. You can hit objects with it and you're not required to fire more than one beam, so etching graffiti into rocks is fair game.


You know, I can't really put my finger on it but this is the first time in a while that Xykon hasn't really come across as very funny. The vibe I'm getting here isn't playful playful maliciousness so much as just that he's horrible and doesn't really care about anything except transient self gratification. But I already knew he was like that so...?

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.

You were never supposed to be comfortable with him/it.


Even if that is his plan (likely not), it probably wouldn't work as he'd almost certainly be eliminated.

Right. It continues to amaze me that some people seem to think that, across all the googols of prior worlds, this notion that Xykon was the first mortal to ever come up with the idea of avoiding the reset on the Astral Plane persists, much less that he'd be the only one successful at doing so.

[Windscion]

Right. It continues to amaze me that some people seem to think that, across all the googols of prior worlds, this notion that Xykon was the first mortal to ever come up with the idea of avoiding the reset on the Astral Plane persists, much less that he'd be the only one successful at doing so.

Except that Xykon doesn't know there were more worlds than the original before this one.

[Psyren]

Except that Xykon doesn't know there were more worlds than the original before this one.

I'm not saying that he would consciously be trying to avoid that. I'm saying that anyone thinking his astral fortress would be any sort of protection (especially when the gods explicitly know about it) is likely to be wrong.

[Mic_128]

Right. It continues to amaze me that some people seem to think that, across all the googols of prior worlds, this notion that Xykon was the first mortal to ever come up with the idea of avoiding the reset on the Astral Plane persists, much less that he'd be the only one successful at doing so.

It is however also the world where the IFC have a plan involving the destruction of the world, which could keep Xykon in the game.

[Ruck]

Disintegrate's normally a green beam, maybe it's just a different spell.

Xykon's Graffiti Laser.

[Peelee]

Assuming you mean by the Gods, but scheming by the IFC could disrupt things.

Wouldn't even need to be the gods (at least, not directly). Inevitable are a thing, and having done this billions upon billions of times before, there's almost certainly some provision they have regarding plane shifters.

Not to mention that the IFCC aren't deities and are almost certainly in the "have their minds wiped" category to start with and have had it done probs quite a few times.

[Mic_128]

Not to mention that the IFCC aren't deities and are almost certainly in the "have their minds wiped" category to start with and have had it done probs quite a few times.

True, yet we know they wanted the gods to destroy the world. They wouldn't be cheering the Gods on if it meant they'd die/get their minds wiped.

[Xihirli]

Correction, what sent him in a panic was his phylactery being this close to falling into the gaping maw of a reality-rending abomination.

No, I'm counting his behavior afterwards, where he gets cold and ruthless and shouted MY FREAKIN' PHYLACTERY.


They've already been over this, destroying the phylactery isn't enough to kill Xykon. And Redcloak is mentally incapable of trying while the Plan is still pending. Not after what he did to Right-Eye.

Edit: Also, he already has a failsafe for goblin betrayal, he's brainwashed the MitD into eating Redcloak if he ever turns against him. Which might factor into why he wants the beast hungry, now that I think about it. And if Xykon thought that was enough, he wouldn't have snatched the fake phylactery away. He is not knowingly going to trust his phylactery to Redcloak again, ever.


Xykon isn't aware of the Godsmoot. As far as he knows, the gods haven't even tried to stop him in any way.

I never said he was, necessarily. Whether or not he knows about it, if there is a reveal of Xykon's new trick or his secret double-plan, if it doesn't account for the gods then it won't be threatening. Because WE still know.

[Xihirli]

His plans almost certainly include killing Redcloak at the end of the ritual, and MitD as well. Redcloak has almost certainly figured that out, and has a plan to counter being murdered. MitD almost certainly has not figured that out.

I don't think Redcloak's been expecting to survive a full round after the ritual is cast for years.

[Ralanr]

Once again, Xykon reminds me why he's one of my favorite villains. Sure, good villains can have great motives that make you think and sometimes agree, but there's a charm in a villain that's just not hiding behind a veil of "For the greater good" or "I'm doing what I believe is right."

He just embraces his desires to do what he wants and he wields enough power to make that utterly terrifying.

[Finagle]

So, what likes to eat? A lot? A larva. If you need an example, think of the Hungry Hungry Caterpillar.

But why would such a voracious creature stop eating? Easy. It's going into the pupa stage soon. That's what MitD means about not being so hungry lately, but it's fine.

And what comes after the pupa stage? The adult stage. Think of the Hungry Hungry Caterpillar becoming a full grown butterfly. The final form of MitD which will be horrifyingly powerful and make Xykon and Redcloak together look like 1st level adventurers.

Now I don't mean that MitD is literally going to pupate and build a cocoon and hibernate in it. We'll have to see what form it takes. But the larva -> pupa -> adult mirrors MitD's development as a thinking man, and MitD has always been treated as a child (larva). But as an adult? Whoo doggie. MitD will be able to make his own decisions. And boy, he's going to be super mad about what Xykon has done.

[Peelee]

True, yet we know they wanted the gods to destroy the world. They wouldn't be cheering the Gods on if it meant they'd die/get their minds wiped.

Which would be an excellent rebuttal if they knew they got their minds wiped. One would assume that the mind wipes also prevent them from knowing their minds were wiped, and thus not being prepared for it if the new world ends.

[Ornithologist]

You know, I can't really put my finger on it but this is the first time in a while that Xykon hasn't really come across as very funny. The vibe I'm getting here isn't playful playful maliciousness so much as just that he's horrible and doesn't really care about anything except transient self gratification. But I already knew he was like that so...?

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.

He normally veers between funny horrifying and just horrifying. And when things get more serious he lets the mask of funny fall off. The end of Start of Darkness comes to mind. Also, V's attack on Gobbotopia. The trend you mentioned is likely to continue as the book goes.

[Xihirli]

Which would be an excellent rebuttal if they knew they got their minds wiped. One would assume that the mind wipes also prevent them from knowing their minds were wiped, and thus not being prepared for it if the new world ends.

They're not supposed to know that there's a new world made at all, but they do. I think it's fair to assume they understand pretty much everything we do about the cosmology and process of making a new world. They have to for their plan to be threatening.

[DaOldeWolf]

I wonder why they changed the speech bubbles for the roaches. The new ones look rather nice and its a cool style but I stll have to wonder. Just stylistic changes? Will it be related to something else on the narrative? Were they made like that for the benefit of the reader?

[Peelee]

They're not supposed to know that there's a new world made at all, but they do. I think it's fair to assume they understand pretty much everything we do about the cosmology and process of making a new world. They have to for their plan to be threatening.

All of their information has come through Sabine via Nale via Shojo. I think it's fair to say they probably don't know details that were only known to the gods until well after most of their game of telephone was dismantled.

[Reboot]

I wonder why they changed the speech bubbles for the roaches. The new ones look rather nice and its a cool style but I stll have to wonder. Just stylistic changes? Will it be related to something else on the narrative? Were they made like that for the benefit of the reader?
Legibility. When all the backgrounds were flat colours, bubbleless text was no biggie. Now? Not so much.

[Fyraltari]

All of their information has come through Sabine via Nale via Shojo. I think it's fair to say they probably don't know details that were only known to the gods until well after most of their game of telephone was dismantled.

They seem to have found out about the World-Within independently of the Order. They first learned of the Gates through Nale, but I think they've got another source of information.

[gatemansgc]

I’m not sure what the Monster in the Darkness considers a “little horn,” but can we assume he’s talking about the bugbear in panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1203.html)? He has three horns and swoopy stripes under his eyes.

ooh good catch, you might be right!

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not surprised that Xykon knows, I just wish we knew HOW he knows the information that he knows, because he kind of just....
.....somehow magically knows that the goblins were planning on betraying him without him ever giving an explanation how in SoD, instead focusing everything on breaking Redcloak into being his evil minion. and this feels like a similar case. how did he figure out that Redcloak was planning this? when did he figure it out? its okay if this needs some retroactive explanation or flashback or whatever I just want AN explanation at all.

[Arkain]

I think it isn't the first time we've had this kind of conversation and it never stops being both hilarious and chilling.

"Why would you kill him?"
"Because I'm evil, super powerful and very bored."

[Psyren]

It is however also the world where the IFC have a plan involving the destruction of the world, which could keep Xykon in the game.

Why, because they're one big happy family? Screw that. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

I can't imagine they care one way or the other about Xykon staying in the game, so long as they do.

[Fable Wright]

I'm not surprised that Xykon knows, I just wish we knew HOW he knows the information that he knows, because he kind of just....
.....somehow magically knows that the goblins were planning on betraying him without him ever giving an explanation how in SoD, instead focusing everything on breaking Redcloak into being his evil minion. and this feels like a similar case. how did he figure out that Redcloak was planning this? when did he figure it out? its okay if this needs some retroactive explanation or flashback or whatever I just want AN explanation at all.

It's been built up for a long, long time.

Look at strip 700 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html). Giving his half of the ritual to Tsukiko implies he doesn't trust what Redcloak's doing.

In 829 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), Tsukiko: "He gave it to me. Said he didn't understand how it worked and I should figure it out for him." This is more explicit, it's been highlighted multiple times now that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak's ritual, and wants to know the details of it before he enters the final phase of the plan.

And then in 833 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), look at Xykon's face when Redcloak presents the ritual. Then his line: "If you had to smoke her, you had to smoke her. Hell knows I've had to off an uppity minion in my day."

Redcloak made a power play to keep his secrets. Xykon recognized that. Xykon knows that Redcloak is going to be betraying him.

I very strongly suspect that Xykon, at the final gate, is going to be asked to perform the ritual by Redcloak... and refuse.

Also drawing slapstick of kicking Redcloak's ass goes all the way back to the beginning of the comic where he views Redcloak as a kind of spineless comedic relief. I don't think this is a specific threat to Redcloak.

[Frozenstep]

Now wouldn't be a bad time to ambush Xykon, if it's possible to remotely disable the swapovers and still get to the surface. But probably still better to actually plan together, and then try to ambush Xykon within one of the caves where his flight is less of an issue and he can't teleport out.

[Xihirli]

All of their information has come through Sabine via Nale via Shojo. I think it's fair to say they probably don't know details that were only known to the gods until well after most of their game of telephone was dismantled.

Not all. They've been gathering information on Hel's plans (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html), for instance. It seems likely to me that they're keeping tabs on the Order, and we have no reason to believe that Durkon kept the nature of the world secret from anyone in the party. They seem to be able to scry on Vaarsuvius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) effortlessly, even when they're inside a Cloister.

[warmachine]

The MitD regarding dwarves as a delicacy is almost certainly a red herring. Not only could Xykon be mistaken, the comic establishes he doesn't bother with unimportant details, making misremembering likely.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not surprised that Xykon knows, I just wish we knew HOW he knows the information that he knows, because he kind of just....
.....somehow magically knows that the goblins were planning on betraying him without him ever giving an explanation how in SoD, instead focusing everything on breaking Redcloak into being his evil minion. and this feels like a similar case. how did he figure out that Redcloak was planning this? when did he figure it out? its okay if this needs some retroactive explanation or flashback or whatever I just want AN explanation at all.

Right-Eye wasn't as subtle as he thought, is all. Xykon knew he hated him and was bidding his time to betray him so he kept an eye on him while pretending he didn't notice a thing. Xykon may have a short attention span, but he's very perceptive and cunning.

[bunsen_h]

My guess is Scorching Ray. You can hit objects with it and you're not required to fire more than one beam, so etching graffiti into rocks is fair game.

Its duration is Instantaneous (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm), so it doesn't look ideal for drawing with.


The MitD regarding dwarves as a delicacy is almost certainly a red herring. Not only could Xykon be mistaken, the comic establishes he doesn't bother with unimportant details, making misremembering likely.

My feeling is that it indicates that the MitD's race is described (somewhere, in some sourcebook) as either hating dwarves (i.e. wanting to kill them and -- Xykon assumes -- eat them) or liking them (which Xykon assumes means "liking to eat").

[halfeye]

I wonder why they changed the speech bubbles for the roaches. The new ones look rather nice and its a cool style but I stll have to wonder. Just stylistic changes? Will it be related to something else on the narrative? Were they made like that for the benefit of the reader?

For me it was a real struggle to read the old roach remarks, these are much better.

[Satohika]

Xykon sounds kind of bored and tired here. Like he don't feel anything anymore and just going through motions.

[Peelee]

They seem to have found out about the World-Within independently of the Order. They first learned of the Gates through Nale, but I think they've got another source of information.

That can be obtained by looking into the rift. Not that they specifically did it, but an agent could. They also almost certainly would have seen it when they were scrying on the Order in the desert before Sabine broke their TV, so mundane (as in, non-deity) means to obtain this information clearly exist.

The fact that the gods erase the memories of all outsiders is, presumably, a little harder to come by.

[Kornaki]

Its duration is Instantaneous (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm), so it doesn't look ideal for drawing with.

The beam is instantaneous. The damage it does is obviously permanent, though I guess an enterprising rules lawyer could try to argue otherwise.

[Psyren]

Its duration is Instantaneous (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm), so it doesn't look ideal for drawing with.

What? That actually makes it perfect for drawing. Are you sure you know what that duration means? :smallconfused:

[Jervis]

The beam is instantaneous. The damage it does is obviously permanent, though I guess an enterprising rules lawyer could try to argue otherwise.


What? That actually makes it perfect for drawing. Are you sure you know what that duration means? :smallconfused:

To be fair I think he was referring to how Xykon was using it to draw while speaking instead of sending out a bunch of fire bolts. I originally thought he had a reserve feat but the only line effect one is electric damage. Not impossible but not terribly likely. Are their any spells with a duration that let you shoot off a beam each turn?

[Niveus Candidus]

Moved post to correct thread!

[Rynjin]

To be fair I think he was referring to how Xykon was using it to draw while speaking instead of sending out a bunch of fire bolts. I originally thought he had a reserve feat but the only line effect one is electric damage.

It doesn't need to be a line, it very easily could be a Ray.


Quick, everybody comb through every sourcebook you can find for references to lifecycle-related insatiable hunger!

The only one I know off the top is Barghest/Greater Barghest but that sounds like something obvious enough to have been ruled out years ago.

[Peelee]

Not all. They've been gathering information on Hel's plans (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html), for instance. It seems likely to me that they're keeping tabs on the Order, and we have no reason to believe that Durkon kept the nature of the world secret from anyone in the party. They seem to be able to scry on Vaarsuvius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) effortlessly, even when they're inside a Cloister.

Notwithstanding that we don't know how much they knew about Hel's plan before it went off (and that Hel openly admitted she had been discussing it with others, while Thor only told Durkon, and that's not a detail Durkon would need to let the Order kolnkw about.

Long story short, the end of the world means they get their minds wiped. This only doesn't happen if 1.) they are aware of this, and B.) they have a plan for this. They have given no indication of either being the case, so I am content to assume neither are the case until and unless there is reason to believe so. And, given how late in the game we are currently, I doubt any such indications will come. But hey, I may be surprised.

[RMS Oceanic]

I wonder how much of our reaction to Xykon's callousness is a shift in his portrayal, and how much a shift in MitD's perspective and reaction to that portrayal? Or both even.

[Kaed]

I think we should assume that Xykon believes himself to be as smart as he needs to be to achieve his goals. Which are, living forever and world domination. He may not actually be very smart in a book sense, but he may be a high-functioning sociopath, capable of deceiving everyone around him until he no longer needs them. He did not live long enough to become an epic level sorcerer without something that resembles intelligence, e.g., instinctive cunning. Therefore, I think it is likely that Xykon has figured out quite a bit more than he's letting on.

His plans almost certainly include killing Redcloak at the end of the ritual, and MitD as well. Redcloak has almost certainly figured that out, and has a plan to counter being murdered. MitD almost certainly has not figured that out.

There was a scene in the prequel book, Start of Darkness. I'll spare you the greater details but basically Xykon was having doubts about the plan and was ready to murder Redcloak, and Redcloak threatened to destroy his phylactery.

Xykon was not remotely surprised by this action, and seemed to have been aware Redcloak had some kind of backup plan to control him (though maybe had not known the exact details until that second) and had already planned around it.

He also revealed this contingency plan behavior at the end of the SoD, when Redcloak was forced to make a difficult choice and ended up siding with Xykon at the expense of someone important to him, and found out the entire plot he thought he was stopping was irrelevant because Xykon had been prepared for it for months in advance.

So yeah, he absolutely has some kind of plan for MitD and Redcloak that he isn't telling them, it's happened before.


Interesting note on the goal living forever, though, I don't think that Xykon ever originally had that in his plans until he met Redcloak. When the two met, Xykon was an elderly sorcerer wandering the countryside performing random mass murders without a whole lot of direction or goals. The vibe I got from him was that he was aware his death was coming and was trying to squeeze as much enjoyment out of his last years as possible. He only became a lich basically out of spite, after being wholly defeated by another epic level caster in a fight and imprisoned beneath the earth to die there. He really didn't like that and wanted revenge.

Now, that isn't to say that he doesn't value living forever now, but rather that I don't think he ever planned on doing so and has just run with the opportunity and has pretended it was his plan all along and part of his 'winning strategy' per the conversation with V during their duel.

[chy03001]

Yep, our boy MitD is a pit fiend :-D

[Fyraltari]

Interesting note on the goal living forever, though, I don't think that Xykon ever originally had that in his plans until he met Redcloak. When the two met, Xykon was an elderly sorcerer wandering the countryside performing random mass murders without a whole lot of direction or goals. The vibe I got from him was that he was aware his death was coming and was trying to squeeze as much enjoyment out of his last years as possible. He only became a lich basically out of spite, after being wholly defeated by another epic level caster in a fight and imprisoned beneath the earth to die there. He really didn't like that and wanted revenge.

Now, that isn't to say that he doesn't value living forever now, but rather that I don't think he ever planned on doing so and has just run with the opportunity and has pretended it was his plan all along and part of his 'winning strategy' per the conversation with V during their duel.

Yes, for as much **** as Xykon lays on Redcloak for making up justifications for his evil actions, I think his own little spiel about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below" is cut from the same cloth. Becoming a lich wasn't his idea, he's not happy being one but he's convinced himself it was what he wanted all along to cope with it.

[H_H_F_F]

Yep, our boy MitD is a pit fiend :-D

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Ruck]

I'm not surprised that Xykon knows, I just wish we knew HOW he knows the information that he knows

Knows what, exactly? I get the impression a lot of extrapolation has been made in this thread about Xykon knowing Redcloak is planning to betray him because of the graffiti.


My feeling is that it indicates that the MitD's race is described (somewhere, in some sourcebook) as either hating dwarves (i.e. wanting to kill them and -- Xykon assumes -- eat them) or liking them (which Xykon assumes means "liking to eat").

MitD certainly has more interest in dwarves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) than might be considered typical, anyway.


Yep, our boy MitD is a pit fiend :-D

Nah, he's a protean.

[Kaed]

Yes, for as much **** as Xykon lays on Redcloak for making up justifications for his evil actions, I think his own little spiel about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below" is cut from the same cloth. Becoming a lich wasn't his idea, he's not happy being one but he's convinced himself it was what he wanted all along to cope with it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Xykon on some level hates what he is now. It's been 27 years (thanks Fyraltari for the clarification :D) since he became a lich, and he still fairly consistently makes mention of his living body and it being torn apart in self-depreciating jokes. He is someone who has habitually used necromancy on his victims to make free minions his entire life, and clearly views undeath as an existence subservient to the living. It's also why he's even more murderous than he used to be, because on some level he has lost all sense of value to his existence and takes it out on his subordinates, along with any enemies, and any also probably any people who happen to unfortunately pass by his line of sight when he's in a bit of a bad mood.

However, he's also too much of a horrible stubborn monster to admit that he wants to die, and he's put his focus on the fact that he has this world domination goal. I doubt that he even really cares about ruling the world anymore, you need to value the esteem and/or worship of other people to want to rule the world, and all Xykon finds even pleasurable anymore is the screams of helpless mortals as he kills them, interspersed with childish acts of vandalism.

So, he doesn't want to (un)live, but he doesn't like losing even more, as we've seen from when he finally lost and got imprisoned and took the step to becoming a lich. If he gives up now and/or dies before finishing the 'rule the world' goal, then he'll have failed, and his ego can't tolerate that.

[Carl]

They seem to have found out about the World-Within independently of the Order. They first learned of the Gates through Nale, but I think they've got another source of information.

SoD shows the dinner where Redcloak first outlined the gates and the ritual to him as having Demon Roach's, and at the end they where keen to get them out of the way. My bet is thats how they found out. The Roaches that are with them
now are from the same place, probably the IFCC's spies on team Evil.

[JonahFalcon]

Demon Roach: My speech balloons are blush and bashful.
Xykon: Your speech balloons are pink and pink.
Demon Roach: Pink is my signature color.

[Envyus]

Nightmare Beast is my leading theory for MitD. Do they like to eat Dwarves?

[mehs]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

That kinda assumes that Xykon lasts in between worlds, at least for it to actually work. Between the gods already knowing about it, and it isn't like non-outsiders manage to last in between worlds, and even then the gods need to wipe their memories to prevent them from going insane.

At the end of the day, while the gods' hands may be tied while a world has been created, they sure as Hel aren't going to just let the person who kicked their last sand castle stand by in the waiting for them to kick over their next one.

[Blatt]

I'm going character development means MITD (aka MUU) doesn't want to eat the good guys and is making up stories about being full. This is consistent with the misdirecting extra crosses.

[mehs]

How did you come to that conclusion?

I believe it was a reference to Lord of the Rings, the demon thing from the mines of moria, either Pit Fiends or Balor Demons are modeled after it.

[Fyraltari]

It's been over a decade I believe since he became a lich (exact time is unclear, but at least one generation of goblins were born and grew up since)

SoD places the transformation as taking place 27 years before Dungeon Crawling Fools.

[facw]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

People seem to think that travelling to another plane will save people from the world's destruction, and Xykon might (though presumably he doesn't know about the god's' plan to destroy the world) but somehow I doubt that would actually work. If the gods go to the trouble of mind wiping the outsiders, it seems unlikely they'd let some random sorcerer or cleric stick around (especially when they are physically made of the threads of reality needed to imprison the Snarl). Perhaps just as bad, someone who can travel between planes could potentially create a way for the Snarl to reach into other planes.

I'd guess if their method of destruction doesn't automatically destroy travelers on other planes, they'd eventually do some cleanup. Perhaps not immediately given that they have centuries before they need to remake the word, so it is easier to just let most travelers die on their own, but it seems like it would be the thing to do.

[riMkrad]

Xykon is smarter than he let's on. Recall in one of the prequel books spoiler alert....





he tells red cloak to not confuse not caring with not knowing in regards to red cloak's brother.

[TRH]

People seem to think that travelling to another plane will save people from the world's destruction, and Xykon might (though presumably he doesn't know about the god's' plan to destroy the world) but somehow I doubt that would actually work. If the gods go to the trouble of mind wiping the outsiders, it seems unlikely they'd let some random sorcerer or cleric stick around (especially when they are physically made of the threads of reality needed to imprison the Snarl). Perhaps just as bad, someone who can travel between planes could potentially create a way for the Snarl to reach into other planes.

I'd guess if their method of destruction doesn't automatically destroy travelers on other planes, they'd eventually do some cleanup. Perhaps not immediately given that they have centuries before they need to remake the word, so it is easier to just let most travelers die on their own, but it seems like it would be the thing to do.

How exactly would an instantaneous Plane Shift spell create a permanent pathway from the Material Plane to somewhere else for the Snarl to slip through? Even if the Snarl was right on their heels and somehow didn't unmake them before they could escape, the spell only affects willing creatures joining hands in a circle, so it wouldn't drag any piece of Snarl along for the ride.

Honestly it seems to me the real issue in this thread is people assuming that the multiple characters who've brought up the option of surviving the world's destruction by escaping to another plane are all wrong, not the people who haven't seen anything in the text contradict the characters' assessments of their options. And I'll point out the list of characters with said belief include a cleric who was in direct communication with a god who's not only involved in the destruction process but had studied the mechanics of said destruction more carefully than most of her peers. So the folks postulating that the gods will hunt down and erase stragglers afterwards must think Hel was lying/withholding information from Greg, or else that she'd intervene to protect Greg from the other gods who would otherwise want to silence him. And if that's your argument, that's fine, but it's not exactly parsimonious.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable. Killing people isn't necessarily funny. You gotta to nail the timing.
Maybe he's got a problem with timing. :smallcool:

[JonahFalcon]

Killing people isn't necessarily funny. You gotta to nail the timing.
Maybe he's got a problem with timing. :smallcool:

The thing is, he's not Thog. He's not supposed to be funny. Rich has said that he doesn't want Xykon to have villain decay. He's not supposed to make you laugh at his evil. Check the forward of Start of Darkness: "He's kind of a [expletive deleted]".

He was casually murderous before he was a lich, but as a lich -- he offed a waitress because he couldn't taste coffee anymore.

It wasn't meant as a joke.

[MReav]

Not all. They've been gathering information on Hel's plans (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html), for instance. It seems likely to me that they're keeping tabs on the Order, and we have no reason to believe that Durkon kept the nature of the world secret from anyone in the party. They seem to be able to scry on Vaarsuvius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) effortlessly, even when they're inside a Cloister.

Well, they are Archfiends, they probably have access to the same level of scry power (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) that the Celestials do.

[chy03001]

How did you come to that conclusion?

I've suspected MitD was a Pit Fiend for some time now.

They can grow larger over time,
They can summon devils (like the cockroaches)
They can create undead, and MitD even told Red Cloak that he could do it.
They can cast teleport
And the last bit about "didn't I read someplace that Dwarves were some kind of delicacy for your kind?" is likely a nod to Lord of the Rings, where the Balrog was also known as Durin's Bane and are what Pit Fiends are modeled after.

At any rate, I've already convinced myself that MitD is a Pit Fiend and until he's finally revealed, that's what I'm assuming he is.

[bunsen_h]

To be fair I think he was referring to how Xykon was using it to draw while speaking instead of sending out a bunch of fire bolts. I originally thought he had a reserve feat but the only line effect one is electric damage. Not impossible but not terribly likely. Are their any spells with a duration that let you shoot off a beam each turn?

Yes, that's what I had in mind. It's a lot harder to draw a line picture with momentary zaps than with a drawing instrument that has persistence.


Interesting note on the goal living forever, though, I don't think that Xykon ever originally had that in his plans until he met Redcloak. When the two met, Xykon was an elderly sorcerer wandering the countryside performing random mass murders without a whole lot of direction or goals. The vibe I got from him was that he was aware his death was coming and was trying to squeeze as much enjoyment out of his last years as possible. He only became a lich basically out of spite, after being wholly defeated by another epic level caster in a fight and imprisoned beneath the earth to die there. He really didn't like that and wanted revenge.

I think that his main motivation in undergoing the transformation was to escape, to not have to spend his remaining years in that cave. Revenge was a bonus.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Xykon on some level hates what he is now. It's been 27 years (thanks Fyraltari for the clarification :D) since he became a lich, and he still fairly consistently makes mention of his living body and it being torn apart in self-depreciating jokes. He is someone who has habitually used necromancy on his victims to make free minions his entire life, and clearly views undeath as an existence subservient to the living. It's also why he's even more murderous than he used to be, because on some level he has lost all sense of value to his existence and takes it out on his subordinates, along with any enemies, and any also probably any people who happen to unfortunately pass by his line of sight when he's in a bit of a bad mood.

However, he's also too much of a horrible stubborn monster to admit that he wants to die, and he's put his focus on the fact that he has this world domination goal. I doubt that he even really cares about ruling the world anymore, you need to value the esteem and/or worship of other people to want to rule the world, and all Xykon finds even pleasurable anymore is the screams of helpless mortals as he kills them, interspersed with childish acts of vandalism.

So, he doesn't want to (un)live, but he doesn't like losing even more, as we've seen from when he finally lost and got imprisoned and took the step to becoming a lich. If he gives up now and/or dies before finishing the 'rule the world' goal, then he'll have failed, and his ego can't tolerate that.

I don't see him as being down on his current existence, nor that he thinks it's worse than being alive. He occasionally talks up the advantages that he's got, and the only disadvantage that he's mentioned (in Start of Darkness, in the diner) is frustrating to him but not a really major limitation. He may even have researched a work-around for that. His created minions were inferior to him when he was alive, but so are the minions he's created since he was transformed. I think he sees "minions are inferior to me" rather than "undead are inferior to the living".

[Xihirli]

At any rate, I've already convinced myself that MitD is a Pit Fiend and until he's finally revealed, that's what I'm assuming he is.

I thought the Balor was the similar, yet legally distinct being from the Balrog.

[InvisibleBison]

I've suspected MitD was a Pit Fiend for some time now.

I don't think the arguments you cite are particularly convincing.


They can grow larger over time,

Devils do generally grow as they rise through the ranks, true. It's not really the same as growing as you age, which is what MitD thinks he'll do, but it's similar. This is definitely the strongest of your arguments.


They can summon devils (like the cockroaches)

True, but:
A) Pit fiends can summon from a specific list of devils, which doesn't include demonic cockroaches.
B) The demonic cockroaches are demons, not devils, and thus even if there was a way for a pit fiend to expand the kinds of devils they could summon they still wouldn't be able to summon the roaches.
C)The roaches joined Team Evil before MitD did.


They can create undead, and MitD even told Red Cloak that he could do it.

You're misremembering this incident (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html). MitD offered to help Redcloak create undead, and Redcloak pointed out that MitD was unable to do so. Being able to create undead is actually an argument against something being MitD.


They can cast teleport

Like all devils, pit fiends can only teleport themselves. They can't bring others with them, and they certainly can't send others while staying put themselves.


And the last bit about "didn't I read someplace that Dwarves were some kind of delicacy for your kind?" is likely a nod to Lord of the Rings, where the Balrog was also known as Durin's Bane and are what Pit Fiends are modeled after.

I'm not familiar with early D&D, so I can't speak to whether or not this is accurate as to the origins of Pit Fiends. However, I can say that Durin's Bane didn't have any particular grudge against dwarves; he just happened to find himself in the middle of a dwarven city. If that line is intended to be a nod to Durin's Bane, it's far more inept than I would expect from a writer as skilled as the Giant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Like all devils, pit fiends can only teleport themselves. They can't bring others with them, and they certainly can't send others while staying put themselves.

FTR, it does have access to wish 1/year, which could have been used for the Escape. But otherwise, all your arguments are on point, and of course there is the additional problem that the Circus scene just doesn't work with something as instantly recognisable as a Pit Fiend.

GW

[Oromin]

Knows what, exactly? I get the impression a lot of extrapolation has been made in this thread about Xykon knowing Redcloak is planning to betray him because of the graffiti.

Personally I'm not convinced Xykon knows anything about The Plan at all. Asking Tsukiko to figure out the ritual suggests he doesn't trust Redcloak. Of course given how much Redcloak hates him, suspecting treachery isn't exactly a huge leap of logic. Heck he might plan to off Redcloak at the end just because thought it was funny. He enjoys tormenting Redcloak and I doubt the graffiti has any deeper meaning than that.

Xykon has been outraged at Redcloak in the past for "dawdling". He only cares about the Gates. He said it when they conquered Azure City. He said it again while yelling at Redcloak after V attacked. He said it at Girard's Gate when Recloak wanted to kill the Order. I don't think he does any of that if he knew the Gates were useless to him.

[JonahFalcon]

Personally I'm not convinced Xykon knows anything about The Plan at all. Asking Tsukiko to figure out the ritual suggests he doesn't trust Redcloak. Of course given how much Redcloak hates him, suspecting treachery isn't exactly a huge leap of logic. Heck he might plan to off Redcloak at the end just because thought it was funny. He enjoys tormenting Redcloak and I doubt the graffiti has any deeper meaning than that.

Xykon has been outraged at Redcloak in the past for "dawdling". He only cares about the Gates. He said it when they conquered Azure City. He said it again while yelling at Redcloak after V attacked. He said it at Girard's Gate when Recloak wanted to kill the Order. I don't think he does any of that if he knew the Gates were useless to him.

Xykon has programmed the MitD to eat Redcloak if he gets uppity.

And the MitD is probably an Amethyst Dragon.

[chy03001]

Sorry, I don't know how to manage the quote system very well:

Devils do generally grow as they rise through the ranks, true. It's not really the same as growing as you age, which is what MitD thinks he'll do, but it's similar. This is definitely the strongest of your arguments.

Actually in the 3.5 Monster Manual, Pit Fiends advance from size Large to Size Huge as they gain levels.

A) Pit fiends can summon from a specific list of devils, which doesn't include demonic cockroaches.

Good Point, I don't have a good answer for why. Let me try and track this down.

B) The demonic cockroaches are demons, not devils, and thus even if there was a way for a pit fiend to expand the kinds of devils they could summon they still wouldn't be able to summon the roaches.
C)The roaches joined Team Evil before MitD did. Ah~ good call.

You're misremembering this incident (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html). MitD offered to help Redcloak create undead, and Redcloak pointed out that MitD was unable to do so. Being able to create undead is actually an argument against something being MitD.
Actually I think this was a play on words from The Giant: Redcloak said he was "zombifying monsters" and you can create zombies with the "animate dead" spell which is a 3rd level cleric spell. If MitD is a Pit Fiend, he can cast the 6th level spell "Create Undead" which doesn't create zombies.

Like all devils, pit fiends can only teleport themselves. They can't bring others with them, and they certainly can't send others while staying put themselves.
I think someone mentioned that it could have been the Pit Fiend's "Wish" spell.

I'm not familiar with early D&D, so I can't speak to whether or not this is accurate as to the origins of Pit Fiends. However, I can say that Durin's Bane didn't have any particular grudge against dwarves; he just happened to find himself in the middle of a dwarven city. If that line is intended to be a nod to Durin's Bane, it's far more inept than I would expect from a writer as skilled as the Giant.

It's possible that Xykon wasn't referring to LotR but it fits better than anything else I've found here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the MitD is probably an Amethyst Dragon.

I can't find a growth chart for amethyst dragons, but I'm going to guess that just like most other dragons, one small enough to be MitD is not going to be strong enough to be MitD, nor have the magical powers to perform the escape. It also, like the pit fiend, has extreme difficulty explaining the Circus scene. Dragons are sold as plushies in OotS; no-one is going to say "I've never seen anything like that" when presented with a dragon that happens to look like a gem rather than a metal.

GW

[Peelee]

I've suspected MitD was a Pit Fiend for some time now.

They can grow larger over time,
They can summon devils (like the cockroaches)
They can create undead, and MitD even told Red Cloak that he could do it.
They can cast teleport
And the last bit about "didn't I read someplace that Dwarves were some kind of delicacy for your kind?" is likely a nod to Lord of the Rings, where the Balrog was also known as Durin's Bane and are what Pit Fiends are modeled after.

At any rate, I've already convinced myself that MitD is a Pit Fiend and until he's finally revealed, that's what I'm assuming he is.

Notwithstanding that we've seen a pit fiend in comic already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)?

[Larsaan]

*snip*

The main issue is that there is no such thing as a young pit fiend. All devils, with the exception of the archdevils and possibly some of their oldest generals, start out as lemures, and are then transformed into more powerful forms as they're promoted through the ranks. To become a pit fiend you have to already be a very old, very experienced devil who has committed great and terrible deeds, which obviously does not fit with the MitD's personality at all.

[Oromin]

Xykon has programmed the MitD to eat Redcloak if he gets uppity,

Ok, and? That doesn't contradict anything I said.

[Windscion]

... So the folks postulating that the gods will hunt down and erase stragglers afterwards must think Hel was lying/withholding information from Greg, or else that she'd intervene to protect Greg from the other gods who would otherwise want to silence him. And if that's your argument, that's fine, but it's not exactly parsimonious.

Greg planned to stay in his God's realm; not the same thing as an unaffiliated epic sorceror chilling by the astral sea. When I thought you were talking about Hilgya/Loki you had a valid point, since we've no idea to which plane she was planning to shift.

Finally, if Xykon's plan won't work, this is not a problem. So long as he thinks it will work, it can be a plan. It is very possibly just a precaution, anyway.

[TRH]

Personally I'm not convinced Xykon knows anything about The Plan at all. Asking Tsukiko to figure out the ritual suggests he doesn't trust Redcloak. Of course given how much Redcloak hates him, suspecting treachery isn't exactly a huge leap of logic. Heck he might plan to off Redcloak at the end just because thought it was funny. He enjoys tormenting Redcloak and I doubt the graffiti has any deeper meaning than that.

Xykon has been outraged at Redcloak in the past for "dawdling". He only cares about the Gates. He said it when they conquered Azure City. He said it again while yelling at Redcloak after V attacked. He said it at Girard's Gate when Recloak wanted to kill the Order. I don't think he does any of that if he knew the Gates were useless to him.

The thing is, Redcloak confirmed Xykon's suspicions by killing Tsukiko when she tried to investigate the ritual further. I hadn't really thought about it so deeply before, but I'm coming around to thinking Xykon has at a minimum figured out that the ritual will benefit Redcloak but not him. And honestly, so much of the two's relationship revolves around Xykon just understanding Redcloak too well, which dooms his attempts at deception to failure so long as they stem from the same mindset he's always had. He has to believe that he's puppeteering Xykon for his plan to stand a chance, so of course he'll tell himself that, but that really doesn't make it true.

[TRH]

Greg planned to stay in his God's realm; not the same thing as an unaffiliated epic sorceror chilling by the astral sea. When I thought you were talking about Hilgya/Loki you had a valid point, since we've no idea to which plane she was planning to shift.

Finally, if Xykon's plan won't work, this is not a problem. So long as he thinks it will work, it can be a plan. It is very possibly just a precaution, anyway.

The main point I was making is that we do know that several characters plan to plane shift off this plane if the worst comes, but we do not know that the gods have some roving death squads standing by to execute escapees and yet people seem to be taking that as a given for some reason.

If Xykon's plan won't work, it won't be because a dozen solars pop into his astral fortress to put him down for knowing too much or whatever.

[KorvinStarmast]

He enjoys tormenting Redcloak and I doubt the graffiti has any deeper meaning than that. Sometimes, a banana is just a banana. {1}
And the MitD is probably an Amethyst Dragon. There's a whole separate thread for that. Have not checked it in a while. Is A.D. a leading contenter?
{1} Channeling an old SNL skit

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is A.D. a leading conten[d]er?
Not really. Dragons tend to be too large to be MitD. Or rather, you can pick powerful enough to be MitD, or small enough to be MitD, but not both. This is an issue exclusive to dragons, too, because they are about the only creatures that have stats from babies to elder, so we know precisely what they can do when they are MitD's size.

GW

[Psyren]

To be fair I think he was referring to how Xykon was using it to draw while speaking instead of sending out a bunch of fire bolts. I originally thought he had a reserve feat but the only line effect one is electric damage. Not impossible but not terribly likely. Are their any spells with a duration that let you shoot off a beam each turn?

The instantaneous duration doesn't mean the delivery mechanism only lasts for a millisecond. Fireball is instantaneous and the bead has travel time. All we can say for sure is that the ray lasts no longer than 6 seconds per casting - how much drawing he could get done in that time isn't specified in the rules.

[Mic_128]

Why, because they're one big happy family? Screw that. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

I can't imagine they care one way or the other about Xykon staying in the game, so long as they do.

Oh, no, I just meant more as a side-effect of whatever they do. I would imagine something like if/when the last gate is destroyed and the snarl is freed, Xykon would TP to the astral fortress while the IFCC do whatever they do, which would no doubt occupy the God's attention.

[danielxcutter]

Y’know, Xykon’s cruelty has been somewhat played for laughs before, so I don’t think it’s just that which makes this disturbing.

Usually that’s mixed with something absurd like giving hobgoblins garnish, crackers and mustard baths, so maybe that’s why.

Also the contrast between his dialogue and the MitD, and the petty graffiti might also be factors.

[brian 333]

Some thoughts:

Always good to see TE again. And it's good to see development with MitD.

Xykon's phylactery is a holy symbol of The Dark One. No matter where it is, TDO can know. Xykon may not have thought through all of the ramifications. (Unless he made his own phylactery and didn't tell RC.)

I speculate that mortals from one world can only survive the interregnum between worlds if powered by a deity. Such a deity will surely erase the memories of the past world and replace them with memories appropriate to the new. If Xykon tries to solo the interval, he may find himself crown in phalanges before TDO begging for a crust.

Come to think of it, that may be were the souls used in the Soul Splice came from.

I think Xykon was testing MitD. Whenever he acts reasonably toward his allies it is because he caught them. For example, Tsukiko had to analyze the half-ritual. Why? Wouldn't an epic sorcerer accidentally pick up enough skill points in spellcraft to match a mid-level character? I think Xylon already knew. He assigned Tsukiko to the task to test her loyalty. Redcloak killed her, confirming that Tsukiko was disloyal and that Redcloak knew what the ritual does, and killed her to maintain the secret. He acted just as reasonably when MitD defied him. "Oh well, no big deal. Forget about it."

Except that Xykon does not forget.

[holywhippet]

I suspect Xykon wouldn't be able to survive the Gods destroying the world by hiding out on another plane if only because I suspect the planes would be wiped out as well. The only evidence I have is that the Gods create a different world each time, and not all are magical. I don't expect that magical planes like the astral will exist if the current world is technology based so I'd expect the Gods wipe them out as well.

Aside from the hunger question, whatever the MitD is, it was able to work out that the ritual piece was only half of the complete ritual. That suggests a high level of knowledge in arcana and possibly religion. A pit fiend would fit in that regard, but I don't see how it would qualify as being always hungry. Other candidates I can think of don't make sense. Hydras and ghouls are usually always hungry but they aren't magically inclined as a rule.

[Sigako]

Y’know, Xykon’s cruelty has been somewhat played for laughs before, so I don’t think it’s just that which makes this disturbing.

Usually that’s mixed with something absurd like giving hobgoblins garnish, crackers and mustard baths, so maybe that’s why.

Also the contrast between his dialogue and the MitD, and the petty graffiti might also be factors.

The technique is called "crossing the line twice" - when the cruelty or whatever else that makes the joke disturbing is exaggerated so much it sort of loops back into being funny.




Also, am I the only one quietly hoping that MitD will eat Xykon? Yes, no meat, I know, but he's surely crunchy, and sometimes you have to take one for the team (O-Chul) and chew properly. That wouldn't destroy the philactery, but his regeneration isn't instant, at least.

[Psyren]

Also, am I the only one quietly hoping that MitD will eat Xykon? Yes, no meat, I know, but he's surely crunchy, and sometimes you have to take one for the team (O-Chul) and chew properly. That wouldn't destroy the philactery, but his regeneration isn't instant, at least.

I don't know about eating him, but it at least appears strong enough to fight him, or maybe Redcloak.


Oh, no, I just meant more as a side-effect of whatever they do. I would imagine something like if/when the last gate is destroyed and the snarl is freed, Xykon would TP to the astral fortress while the IFCC do whatever they do, which would no doubt occupy the God's attention.

Even if you're right about this, how long do you think that would last? Regardless of which side would win whatever conflict might ensue, they both subsist on souls and so would want his eventually. Even moreso if the Snarl starts rampaging for eons and they have to subsist on reserve power, to say nothing of the winners eventually wanting to wipe the slate clean and remake the cosmology in their image.

Put another way - if an astral fortress were truly a means of surviving the unmaking, we'd logically see a lot more of them; enough, in fact, that Xykon could have simply co-opted an empty one instead of making his own, as tends to be his MO. More to the point, we should have seen a single non-god survivor of a previous iteration of the world in all those attempts. That we've seen neither of these does not bode well for anyone who isn't a god, even an immortal.

[Lord Raziere]

It's been built up for a long, long time.

Look at strip 700 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html). Giving his half of the ritual to Tsukiko implies he doesn't trust what Redcloak's doing.

In 829 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), Tsukiko: "He gave it to me. Said he didn't understand how it worked and I should figure it out for him." This is more explicit, it's been highlighted multiple times now that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak's ritual, and wants to know the details of it before he enters the final phase of the plan.

And then in 833 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), look at Xykon's face when Redcloak presents the ritual. Then his line: "If you had to smoke her, you had to smoke her. Hell knows I've had to off an uppity minion in my day."

Redcloak made a power play to keep his secrets. Xykon recognized that. Xykon knows that Redcloak is going to be betraying him.

I very strongly suspect that Xykon, at the final gate, is going to be asked to perform the ritual by Redcloak... and refuse.

Also drawing slapstick of kicking Redcloak's ass goes all the way back to the beginning of the comic where he views Redcloak as a kind of spineless comedic relief. I don't think this is a specific threat to Redcloak.

Okay I guess thats fair, he can simply not trust Redcloak even though he doesn't know whats going on.

[Ruck]

Personally I'm not convinced Xykon knows anything about The Plan at all. Asking Tsukiko to figure out the ritual suggests he doesn't trust Redcloak. Of course given how much Redcloak hates him, suspecting treachery isn't exactly a huge leap of logic. Heck he might plan to off Redcloak at the end just because thought it was funny. He enjoys tormenting Redcloak and I doubt the graffiti has any deeper meaning than that.

I agree with the bolded and I think that's the only real thing we can take from the graffiti scene. I got the impression other people thought it meant Xykon knew Redcloak was going to betray him, or knew he switched the phylactery out, or something like that.


Notwithstanding that we've seen a pit fiend in comic already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)?

Are we sure that's a Pit Fiend? I remember asking about this another time, because while everyone seemed to think so, I can't find any hard evidence. According to the SRD, Pit Fiends are 12 feet tall, and that creature looks much bigger. That said, I can't find a better fit among devils (especially with the wings and flames).


I think Xykon was testing MitD. Whenever he acts reasonably toward his allies it is because he caught them. For example, Tsukiko had to analyze the half-ritual. Why? Wouldn't an epic sorcerer accidentally pick up enough skill points in spellcraft to match a mid-level character? I think Xylon already knew. He assigned Tsukiko to the task to test her loyalty. Redcloak killed her, confirming that Tsukiko was disloyal and that Redcloak knew what the ritual does, and killed her to maintain the secret. He acted just as reasonably when MitD defied him. "Oh well, no big deal. Forget about it."

Except that Xykon does not forget.

Tsukiko was loyal to Xykon, though. I'm not sure how Redcloak killing Tsukiko confirms to Xykon that Tsukiko was disloyal and that Redcloak is trying to keep the ritual secret from him.

[nephilia]

The only one I know off the top is Barghest/Greater Barghest but that sounds like something obvious enough to have been ruled out years ago.

I was looking on the internet and I catched that Bulettes suffer of insatiable hunger.
Plus they likes to eat halfling and dislike dwarves and mostly elves (and this will totally come along with Xykon's lack of attention for details!)
The only problem is that I can't find anywhere something about Bulette being able to cast earthquake, as we seen long time ago in a strip... maybe a variant, or similar?

[Liquor Box]

I think Xykon probably does know Redcloak might have a sneaky plan. Every time something happened Xykon was one step ahead of him, and think Xykon is just smarter than Redcloak is.

But I don't think the picture has anything to do with that. I think he just made the picture because it's funny.

[The MunchKING]

I thought the Balor was the similar, yet legally distinct being from the Balrog.

Not surprised that WWE didn't want to pay Tolkien just for old Finn. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Should have made the other one a "The boxer from Street Fighter" reference instead of playing into the Tolkien stuff everyone was already talking about. :smallwink:

[Larsaan]

I was looking on the internet and I catched that Bulettes suffer of insatiable hunger.
Plus they likes to eat halfling and dislike dwarves and mostly elves (and this will totally come along with Xykon's lack of attention for details!)
The only problem is that I can't find anywhere something about Bulette being able to cast earthquake, as we seen long time ago in a strip... maybe a variant, or similar?

Gray renders are similiar creatures that would probably fit the bill more closely, but neither of them have overtly supernatural abilities.

[Peelee]

Are we sure that's a Pit Fiend? I remember asking about this another time, because while everyone seemed to think so, I can't find any hard evidence. According to the SRD, Pit Fiends are 12 feet tall, and that creature looks much bigger. That said, I can't find a better fit among devils (especially with the wings and flames).

The two closest fits are pit fiend and balor, and qarr is a devil summoning another devil. Sure, it's oversized, but the author plays with size all the time. That one needed to be colossal for Kubota could see it defeated, so it was colossal.

[danielxcutter]

Are we sure that's a Pit Fiend? I remember asking about this another time, because while everyone seemed to think so, I can't find any hard evidence. According to the SRD, Pit Fiends are 12 feet tall, and that creature looks much bigger. That said, I can't find a better fit among devils (especially with the wings and flames).

Well DStP was Screw The PCsTM: The Arc. Maybe it was an advanced one.

[faustin]

V de Vendetta: "Come now, Mr. Redcloak, you knew this was coming. You knew that one day, it'd be you or him."

[mjasghar]

Not surprised that WWE didn't want to pay Tolkien just for old Finn. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Should have made the other one a "The boxer from Street Fighter" reference instead of playing into the Tolkien stuff everyone was already talking about. :smallwink:

Balrog was originally meant to be the End Boss name, and the boxer M.Bison as a joke about M Tyson but they had to change it as it was too close
The facial features are a dead give away

[KorvinStarmast]

Check the forward of Start of Darkness: "He's kind of a [expletive deleted]". I didn't need to read the forward of SoD to figure out that Xykon was/is a {censored}. :smallwink:

Not really. Dragons tend to be too large to be MitD. Or rather, you can pick powerful enough to be MitD, or small enough to be MitD, but not both. This is an issue exclusive to dragons, too, because they are about the only creatures that have stats from babies to elder, so we know precisely what they can do when they are MitD's size. Got it, thanks. Been a while since I hit the MiTD thread(s) so I wasn't sure of the state of play on 'most likely' .... will go take a look. (I think protean was where I'd last thrown my guess ... not sure if I ever posted).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Been a while since I hit the MiTD thread(s) so I wasn't sure of the state of play on 'most likely' .... will go take a look. (I think protean was where I'd last thrown my guess ... not sure if I ever posted).

You catch us at an awkward moment (new thread created, but waiting on my collaborators to post their stuff, so the old one is still the active one), so I can give you the rundown here. Crusher keeps track of which suggestions have had the most adherents, and Protean remain top of the list, followed by an unpublished, now deleted from the Internet except for a copy I made in the forums, variation of the Athasian Nightmare Beast, followed by a Slaad (usually white or black, the most powerful, notwithstanding the lifecycle issues). We haven't touched on it, but honestly, I could see the "I'm full" being a reference that he is currently a white Slaad about to transition to black. Or maybe that's just me projecting because that was supposed to be my silly suggestion, and I'm just biased to see every little piece fit in that direction.

As to suggestions themselves, regardless of adherents, the most recent one "quite good fit" is a Xenocrysth, a psionic cthulhu-like creature.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

Tsukiko was loyal to Xykon, though. I'm not sure how Redcloak killing Tsukiko confirms to Xykon that Tsukiko was disloyal and that Redcloak is trying to keep the ritual secret from him.

If Tsukiko was loyal, why did she go to Redcloak first? She was trying to extort Redcloak for her own benefit with a secret a loyal minion should have taken to her patron.

If she did go to Xykon first, Xykon suggested she try to solicit a bribe; otherwise, she thought of it herself.

Xykon is lazy, not stupid. He had custody of the half-ritual for a while. If for no other reason than to have something to do on a boring afternoon, he'd have studied it. Even if he didn't know exactly what it does, he'd suspect it does not do what Redcloak says it does.

Along comes Tsukiko. Is she loyal to him or to Redcloak? Test her. Give her the half ritual and if she comes to him and confirms what he already knows/suspects, she's loyal. Then use her to find out if Redcloak knows.

But if she goes to Redcloak first, she also confirms what he knows/suspects, and at the same time demonstrates her disloyalty. She's in it for herself, no matter her freaky fantasies.

That Redcloak kills her is also confirmation that Redcloak already knows the ritual does not do what he says it does and is hiding that knowledge from Xykon.

Perhaps one has to be a paranoid to think like a paranoid, but in Xykon's mind everyone is a traitor because he is. He can't imagine they are not. Tsukiko's loyalty test proved that if Redcloak hadn't killed her, he would have had to do so himself sooner or later. He knows Redcloak will try to use and discard him, so he will be ready to turn the tables when it happens.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If Tsukiko was loyal, why did she go to Redcloak first? She was trying to extort Redcloak for her own benefit with a secret a loyal minion should have taken to her patron.

She went to RC because she didn't have the answer yet. And she thought she could bully him into giving it to her.

GW

[Fyraltari]

If Tsukiko was loyal, why did she go to Redcloak first? She was trying to extort Redcloak for her own benefit with a secret a loyal minion should have taken to her patron.
For two reasons, the first being that she was trying to impress Xykon by bringing him the full ritual. She didn't "go to Redcloak"at all, he found her ransacking his study while he was away.


If she did go to Xykon first, Xykon suggested she try to solicit a bribe; otherwise, she thought of it herself.
What bribe?


Xykon is lazy, not stupid. He had custody of the half-ritual for a while. If for no other reason than to have something to do on a boring afternoon, he'd have studied it. Even if he didn't know exactly what it does, he'd suspect it does not do what Redcloak says it does.
Xykon never received any formal training in magic. Remember that even when fighting for dear (un)life against the ghost-martyrs he kept using the wrong kind of magic attacks.
Which is why he asked Tsukiko to decypher the ritual for him. She realized it couldn't do what it was advertised as doing, but in order to know what it actually does she needed the second half. Without knowing exactly what Recloak was up to, she would only have technical jargon to report to Xykon and it'd be her word against Redcloak's.

Along comes Tsukiko. Is she loyal to him or to Redcloak?
Why would she be loyal to Redcloak? He tried to kill her on day one. She's been demeaning him and fighting him for the #2 spot ever since. Xykon knows this'


Perhaps one has to be a paranoid to think like a paranoid, but in Xykon's mind everyone is a traitor because he is. He can't imagine they are not.

Xykon is not paranoid. He's not as careless as he appears (he clearly knows Redcloak isn't loyal) but he hardly frets over who's going to betray him. He apparently hasn't realized yet that the MitD is turning against him, for example.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xykon is not paranoid. He's not as careless as he appears (he clearly knows Redcloak isn't loyal) but he hardly frets over who's going to betray him. He apparently hasn't realized yet that the MitD is turning against him, for example.

Actually, I think he works on the assumption that everyone will eventually turn against him, because that is what he would do. But also assumes they won't do it until they're powerful enough, again because that's what he would do. So most of his efforts are in making sure no minion is ever too powerful for him to handle.

And I think he cottoned on to MitD's wavering loyalty back in the desert, but chose to go along with it anyway because he doesn't think MitD is as dangerous as RC.

Grey Wolf

[dancrilis]

Xykon never received any formal training in magic.


The Giant is free to ignore this but Epic Spellcasting for an arcane caster does require a serious degree of arcane knowledge (specifically having both Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) with at least 24 ranks in both - impossible for non-epic casters).

He also has seemingly developed his own arcane spells and has no issue casting them, spellcraft checks are needed for casting them and Knowledge (arcane) determines spells per day (1 epic spell slot for every ten ranks)

Xykon may be the most knowledgable spellcaster around - and as such he might have used Tsukiko for something other then the purpose of having her research the ritual.

Or the Gaint may be ignoring the epic spellcasting rules and thereby the skill rank requirements and the implications thereof (or Xykon might have been able but just couldn't be bothered), I wouldn't outright dismiss the idea that Xykon may be pulling a con however.


Remember that even when fighting for dear (un)life against the ghost-martyrs he kept using the wrong kind of magic attacks.
That would likely have required Knowledge (religion).

[Shining Wrath]

Actually, I think he works on the assumption that everyone will eventually turn against him, because that is what he would do. But also assumes they won't do it until they're powerful enough, again because that's what he would do. So most of his efforts are in making sure no minion is ever too powerful for him to handle.

And I think he cottoned on to MitD's wavering loyalty back in the desert, but chose to go along with it anyway because he doesn't think MitD is as dangerous as RC.

Grey Wolf

An interesting point is that Xykon thinks MitD is quite powerful - capable of casually devouring RC - but doesn't seem to fear him. Does he think he can Dominate him casually? Might be a clue, that MitD has a relatively low Will save.

[kierthos]

Some thoughts:

Always good to see TE again. And it's good to see development with MitD.

Xykon's phylactery is a holy symbol of The Dark One. No matter where it is, TDO can know. Xykon may not have thought through all of the ramifications. (Unless he made his own phylactery and didn't tell RC.)

It's been a while since I've looked at D&D 3.5 rules (and Mr. Burlew is going to go for story over rules every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays), but I don't think Xykon can make another phylactery.

Okay, hear me out, and keep in mind, I could be wrong on the rules.

Creating a phylactery is part of the process of becoming a lich. You can't make multiple phylacteries for the same lich, because it's an intrinsic part of the ritual. And, from Start of Darkness, they used Redcloak's Holy Symbol because it was the only available option. So, they finish the ritual, Xykon goes from sociopathic elderly sorcerer to sociopathic lich. Even if Xykon wanted to make a "backup phylactery", it wouldn't work. Oh, he could make something that could work as a phylactery for someone else on the path to lichdom, but he's already got a phylactery.

Now, let's say the phylactery (Redcloak's Holy Symbol) gets broken. Xykon isn't immediately destroyed. Rather, once the phylactery is destroyed, if Xykon gets destroyed, he's gone, no coming back, do not pass go, do not collect 200 gold pieces.

Could Xykon, between the destruction of Redcloak's Holy Symbol and his own destruction, turn that almost a phylactery mentioned earlier into his new phylactery? In my opinion, no. Because again, creating a phylactery (and stuffing the soul of the would-be lich inside) is an intrinsic part of the ritual to become a lich. Xykon's already a lich. Again, Mr. Burlew could say "Yes, he can." and then it's a race to destroy Xykon before he completes the ritual, has a new phylactery, and becomes much harder to get rid of. Again.

[mjasghar]

We know that from the long term suggestion - Xykon can spam hypnotise him if need be.

[dancrilis]

...but I don't think Xykon can make another phylactery.


That would be correct* under the Libre Mortis rules.

However that could be read as 'humans cannot fly' which is true but magic could be designed to break that rule - and Xykon does have a lot of magic available to him, ignoring that if he moves onto being a demilich (a costly process) then he will have effectively 8 more phylacteries.

*edit: at least it is correct if the phylactery is destroyed.

[Mic_128]

Even if you're right about this, how long do you think that would last? Regardless of which side would win whatever conflict might ensue, they both subsist on souls and so would want his eventually. Even moreso if the Snarl starts rampaging for eons and they have to subsist on reserve power, to say nothing of the winners eventually wanting to wipe the slate clean and remake the cosmology in their image.

I don't know how long, I'm just saying it's possible he (And perhaps Redcloak and/or The Order) escape there to ride out the initial destruction. There's no sense looking long-term as there's far to many unknown variables. What is the IFCC's great idea? What exactly will happen when the gates fall? Even the Gods don't know about the planet in the rift, which is massively important.


Put another way - if an astral fortress were truly a means of surviving the unmaking, we'd logically see a lot more of them; enough, in fact, that Xykon could have simply co-opted an empty one instead of making his own, as tends to be his MO. More to the point, we should have seen a single non-god survivor of a previous iteration of the world in all those attempts. That we've seen neither of these does not bode well for anyone who isn't a god, even an immortal.

True, but we don't know the timeline of how things go. What do the gods do while waiting for the snarl to calm down? Do they go and hunt down the mortals that escaped their worlds destruction? Wait until the Snarl calms down? Do the mortals that escape eventually just end up dying of thirst or starvation?

Again, I'm not saying that Xykon escapes the destruction of the world and lives in his fortress for a millennia - I'm just saying that it's possible he can survive the immediate destruction.

[Jacky720]

Greg planned to stay in his God's realm; not the same thing as an unaffiliated epic sorceror chilling by the astral sea. When I thought you were talking about Hilgya/Loki you had a valid point, since we've no idea to which plane she was planning to shift.

One of the other vampires stated that, er, blue text distant relative guy would survive the destruction of the world on the demiplane of rolling down a hill painfully.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One of the other vampires stated that, er, blue text distant relative guy would survive the destruction of the world on the demiplane of rolling down a hill painfully.

Not-Thad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1163.html). And not that distant, he's Durkon's cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiancé. Practically brothers, really

:P

Grey Wolf

[Psyren]

I don't know how long, I'm just saying it's possible he (And perhaps Redcloak and/or The Order) escape there to ride out the initial destruction. There's no sense looking long-term as there's far to many unknown variables. What is the IFCC's great idea? What exactly will happen when the gates fall? Even the Gods don't know about the planet in the rift, which is massively important.



True, but we don't know the timeline of how things go. What do the gods do while waiting for the snarl to calm down? Do they go and hunt down the mortals that escaped their worlds destruction? Wait until the Snarl calms down? Do the mortals that escape eventually just end up dying of thirst or starvation?

Again, I'm not saying that Xykon escapes the destruction of the world and lives in his fortress for a millennia - I'm just saying that it's possible he can survive the immediate destruction.

I disagree that there's no sense looking long-term. We may not know exactly what happens between unmaking and remaking, but we do know the results - hard reset, no survivors/refugees remaining from the prior worlds save the gods themselves. The Giant can change that/introduce new information of course, but failing that, that's the data we have.

I agree that the most likely wrench in that will be the planet inside the rift, but Xykon doesn't have a fortress there so it's unlikely to matter for him.

[TRH]

I disagree that there's no sense looking long-term. We may not know exactly what happens between unmaking and remaking, but we do know the results - hard reset, no survivors/refugees remaining from the prior worlds save the gods themselves. The Giant can change that/introduce new information of course, but failing that, that's the data we have.


We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

More broadly, if survivors from prior worlds are rare, it's not necessarily an indication that it's impossible for mortals to survive the world that made them, but that it's really difficult for several reasons, primary of which being that the vast majority would never have learned anything about the Snarl and would therefore have no warning that what seems to just be an earthquake will escalate to a planet-destroying kaboom in thirty minutes or less. And of the few that would want to get as far away from the coming catastrophe as possible, most wouldn't have the means of doing so, especially if not every world includes characters who have access to planar travel, and so on.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

Because it was funny to make it canon that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, real in one of the billions upon billions of previous worlds. Long gone, but not forgotten (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).

Grey Wolf

[TRH]

Because it was funny to make it canon that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, real in one of the billions upon billions of previous worlds. Long gone, but not forgotten (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).

Grey Wolf

Are we sure they're long-gone, though? The party was saved in the present of DCF by a talking sorcerous fruit pie, and while I suppose the intermission strip with the movie theater snacks (which was a fair bit later in the comic than I remembered) could potentially be a thing that happened millions of years ago, well, I dunno, that just seems like an additional assumption to make this argument even less parsimonious.

[chy03001]

Notwithstanding that we've seen a pit fiend in comic already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)?

:-O You're right... same colored eyes, same speech style and even the same childish innocence...

I feel like that just further verifies that MitD is a Pit Fiend. Also, it was reported that MitD would grow much bigger and this Pit Fiend is definitely bigger.

[Fyraltari]

Because it was funny to make it canon that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, real in one of the billions upon billions of previous worlds. Long gone, but not forgotten (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).

Grey Wolf

It does seem that at least one of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) made it to the current world, though.

[hagnat]

did xykon drew a stick figure image onto the mountain, or was it a life-like image ?
would that be considered laser sculpting ?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

did xykon drew a stick figure image onto the mountain, or was it a life-like image ?

In OotS, those are one and the same.

GW

[TRH]

The thing about MitD is that its appearance is striking and unusual, going by everyone's reactions in SoD. I'd say that rules out even the epic dragons that might have the right mix of power and size to fit, because they'd still look to normal. And the same would probably go for a pit fiend, which would be far more likely to straight terrify a crowd of circusgoers rather than the weird mix of awe and other emotions they had seeing him.

[Peelee]

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

What in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html) leads you to believe it was not a brief vignette from the previous world?

:-O You're right... same colored eyes, same speech style and even the same childish innocence...

I feel like that just further verifies that MitD is a Pit Fiend. Also, it was reported that MitD would grow much bigger and this Pit Fiend is definitely bigger.

What Im saying is, who cares about a reveal of a monster we've ready seen, who has been defeated by a less powerful party? Why bother with secrecy at that point?

Also nktwithstanding that out fiends can speak and the MitD speaking was shocking to the hunters. And notwithstanding that nobody reacts to the pit fiend as they reacted in the circus scene. And also that speech style was not even similar, nevermind the same.

[Psyren]

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

1) I acknowledge the impossibility of proving the negative in this case (without being Rich of course), but I remain confident nonetheless that, regardless of whether refugees are possible or not, it won't be for Xykon.

2) Putting aside Rule of Funny for the movie theater snacks, or the possibility that we were in fact getting a glimpse into the prior world, they don't have to be refugees at all. For all we know, the gods could have had a standing agreement to remake a small group of them in this world purely for the purposes of that one gag. (The gods know they're in a comic, after all.)

[Thermophille]

It does seem that at least one of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) made it to the current world, though.

I love the implication that sentient snacks are more competent than the denizens of nearly all worlds, considering their ability to survive between kalpas like this.

[Jervis]

The instantaneous duration doesn't mean the delivery mechanism only lasts for a millisecond. Fireball is instantaneous and the bead has travel time. All we can say for sure is that the ray lasts no longer than 6 seconds per casting - how much drawing he could get done in that time isn't specified in the rules.

We know he was drawing for a bit before the panel and continued through the conversation so whatever he used either required multiple castings, had a duration that allowed for multiple turns of beams, or was some sort of multi charge spell.

For the moment i’m operating under the theory that it was a Reach Spell metamagic Scalding Touch (or similar). Yeah takes a round for him to cast but once it’s cast he has CL number of ray attacks he can make with it. Until I find a better option I think i’m going with that.

Edit: could also be thunderlance I suppose but that’s a bit unlikely since he wasn’t holding it and instead extended it from his finger.

[AnnieTheTanuki]

Right. It continues to amaze me that some people seem to think that, across all the googols of prior worlds, this notion that Xykon was the first mortal to ever come up with the idea of avoiding the reset on the Astral Plane persists, much less that he'd be the only one successful at doing so.

I'm pretty sure some earlier comics had that come up- Hilgya I think said something about Plane Shifting elsewhere if it seemed like things were exploding, and there was a joke about how some planes(the mineral ones) don't accept gold as money for obvious reasons. So clearly some of the people in the know do have plans to escape that way.

Personally I'm not so sure going to the Astral Plane or any other would actually help- the webcomic look was said to be part of this world's creation, and if those are in the same format, maybe those get reset too?

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Random speculation: could the new speech boxes indicate that Team Evil is going somewhere with a reddish background where the old text would be difficult to see (say, the IFCC lair)?

[MaverickMopete]

What in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html) leads you to believe it was not a brief vignette from the previous world?.

I actually believe it is. Remember that Soda Pop serves out "vengeance" by bisecting Pizza with a pizza cutter, which makes perfect sense if you see it as him avenging the death of Milk Dudes at Pizza's hands.

[Jervis]

Random speculation: could the new speech boxes indicate that Team Evil is going somewhere with a reddish background where the old text would be difficult to see (say, the IFCC lair)?

Or maybe the demon roaches gained a level by virtue of being technically in the party and thus took the Obtain Speech Bubble feat.

[Ruck]

Random speculation: could the new speech boxes indicate that Team Evil is going somewhere with a reddish background where the old text would be difficult to see (say, the IFCC lair)?

In theory, but I think the most likely explanation is "Book 7 art upgrade." (As someone else mentioned, the old style would be more and more difficult to read as the backgrounds have gotten more and more complex.)

[Duncun]

[QUOTE=Mic_128;25496971]Even the Gods don't know about the planet in the rift, which is massively important.

Here is my theory. I think the Gods do know about the planet in the rift. I think they built it as a lure to the snarl and then encase both in the new real planet.

[TRH]

What in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html) leads you to believe it was not a brief vignette from the previous world?


*Shrug*

Nothing about it screams flashback, so I just kind of default to thinking it was the present, or at least the recent past if it's a performance of some kind.


1) I acknowledge the impossibility of proving the negative in this case (without being Rich of course), but I remain confident nonetheless that, regardless of whether refugees are possible or not, it won't be for Xykon.

2) Putting aside Rule of Funny for the movie theater snacks, or the possibility that we were in fact getting a glimpse into the prior world, they don't have to be refugees at all. For all we know, the gods could have had a standing agreement to remake a small group of them in this world purely for the purposes of that one gag. (The gods know they're in a comic, after all.)


More and more suppositions. Maybe you misunderstand my position, because I'm not asking you to disprove a negative, I'm asking you to prove a positive, namely that planetary destruction means the extinction of everyone who originated there even if they're not on the planet at the time. And with or without the movie snacks I'd say the dearth of planetary escapees in story have other explanations. In addition to the ones I listed previously I can also add that some could have died of old age, and also that this story hasn't been plane hopping much, so we haven't been in a position where we'd necessarily expect to see such people.

And like I said earlier, Xykon's plan to escape the end of the world may or may not succeed, but I still don't see any reason to think the reason it will fail will be because it was always impossible due to some sort of divine intervention. It will probably be some combination of Redcloak's phylactery switcheroo and the Order's efforts because this is their story. Oh, and also it being academic because too much is riding on this planet surviving, so if it was truly impossible to survive the end we'd never know for sure.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think the Gods do know about the planet in the rift.

They don't (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html).

GW

[Duncun]

They don't (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html).

GW

You're right. I had forgot that. My bad.

[JonahFalcon]

Funny. Most of my elders say the pipes CAN'T stop flowing at a certain age.

[brian 333]

In the ancient days of the sixties, (1960s) comic books had rounded speech balloons for characters and rectangular speech balloons for the narrator's. Sometimes a character would narrate and the balloon would be rectangular if the scene was showing what was being narrated.

I'm not certain that that applies, but I'm assuming that the roach balloons are considered out of character.

[TRH]

They don't seem any more out of character than the roaches' dialogue usually is. At most it might be an indication that these characters have less respect for the fourth wall than anyone else in the comic.

[Psyren]

More and more suppositions. Maybe you misunderstand my position, because I'm not asking you to disprove a negative, I'm asking you to prove a positive, namely that planetary destruction means the extinction of everyone who originated there even if they're not on the planet at the time.

At such time as Rich shows us a non-god character who has survived prior iterations I'll gladly change my mind. Until then, I have plenty of evidence to indicate it's not possible, certainly more than your wagonload of nothing proving it is.


And like I said earlier, Xykon's plan to escape the end of the world may or may not succeed, but I still don't see any reason to think the reason it will fail will be because it was always impossible due to some sort of divine intervention. It will probably be some combination of Redcloak's phylactery switcheroo and the Order's efforts because this is their story. Oh, and also it being academic because too much is riding on this planet surviving, so if it was truly impossible to survive the end we'd never know for sure.

We won't ever know if it's truly possible either.

[TRH]

At such time as Rich shows us a non-god character who has survived prior iterations I'll gladly change my mind. Until then, I have plenty of evidence to indicate it's not possible, certainly more than your wagonload of nothing proving it is.


My evidence is that we have a model for how someone can survive - the Snarl is only a threat on the Material Plane, so just Plane Shift away from it and you're okay. You would need to make the case that this somehow won't work, either because the way the gods destroy the world somehow targets its residents on other planes like Familicide on steroids somehow, for some reason, or the gods go out of their way to assassinate anyone who tries it after the fact. And there's no evidence for either of those.

[brian 333]

At such time as Rich shows us a non-god character who has survived prior iterations I'll gladly change my mind. Until then, I have plenty of evidence to indicate it's not possible, certainly more than your wagonload of nothing proving it is.



We won't ever know if it's truly possible either.

Julio Scoundrel thinks it's a good bet. So does Hilgya.

[TRH]

Julio Scoundrel thinks it's a good bet. So does Hilgya.

Well to be fair, if Hilgya believes something that would be beneficial to her if true is true, then it's almost certainly false.

[hungrycrow]

At such time as Rich shows us a non-god character who has survived prior iterations I'll gladly change my mind. Until then, I have plenty of evidence to indicate it's not possible, certainly more than your wagonload of nothing proving it is.



What about this guy? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)

[bunsen_h]

Funny. Most of my elders say the pipes CAN'T stop flowing at a certain age.

As far as urine goes, there tends to be a shift to needing to pee relatively small amounts frequently, until there's loss of control. Constipation also becomes an issue.


Well to be fair, if Hilgya believes something that would be beneficial to her if true is true, then it's almost certainly false.

I'd say, rather, that if she believes that something like that is true, her beliefs are unreliable and the truth can't be inferred from them. That's she's delusional, rather than being "insane" in the Raymond Smullyan "automatically believes the opposite of the truth" sense.

EDIT:

What about this guy? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)

Though it's a snack, I don't think that's a movie theatre snack, so one can't assume that it survived from that former world.

[TRH]

Though it's a snack, I don't think that's a movie theatre snack, so one can't assume that it survived from that former world.

On the other hand, the intermission strip had a pretty broad definition of the term, to include stuff like pizza, soy lattes and nachos: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html

And as someone pointed out before, the soy latte archer even appeared later in strip 350. He might be the strongest case for an overt survivor of another world.

[brian 333]

What about this guy? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)

An humunculous created by the Sorcerer's Fruit Pie Corporation Marketing Wizards. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=XiPeDyVbLGw&feature=emb_title#menu)

[Krakius]

Always hungry . . .
Wait, I've got it! The Monster in the Darkness is a dog!

[PontificatusRex]

Julio Scoundrel thinks it's a good bet. So does Hilgya.

I don't think it applies to Julio, I'm pretty sure that he expects Elan to save the day and really is just taking a vacation in a place where it will be impossible for the Order to reach him if they get desperate.

In general, I expect that the gods are pretty good at sweeping for refugees on the other planes, it would go along with their whole "mindwiping the outsiders" process. The fact that Thor casually dropped the existence Xykon's Astral fortress instead of treating it like it was a big deal strongly implies that, in my view. Which is why I mentioned in the "Why not negotiate with Xykon" thread that having the Order tell Xykon they know about the fortress would help their position - the very fact that they know about it, and got their info from the gods who are just on the edge of wiping out the world, should be a convincing argument that it's not as safe as he thinks it is.

[The MunchKING]

Balrog was originally meant to be the End Boss name, and the boxer M.Bison as a joke about M Tyson but they had to change it as it was too close
The facial features are a dead give away

I know that, people tell me that every time I reference Balrog. The point is still they called the Boss Bison and the boxer Balrog.



Personally I'm not so sure going to the Astral Plane or any other would actually help- the webcomic look was said to be part of this world's creation, and if those are in the same format, maybe those get reset too?

I kind of got the opposite impression when Thor talked about how the Astral Plane, along with all the Outer Planes, were basically made up of enough thoughts crammed together they start thinking for themselves.

My takeaway was they weren't made with the same Threads of Reality that Prime Material was, and so they didn't need to (and possibly COULDN'T) unmake it every new go around. Which is also why they didn't want the Snarl getting lose out there.

[faustin]

In general, I expect that the gods are pretty good at sweeping for refugees on the other planes, it would go along with their whole "mindwiping the outsiders" process. The fact that Thor casually dropped the existence Xykon's Astral fortress instead of treating it like it was a big deal strongly implies that, in my view. Which is why I mentioned in the "Why not negotiate with Xykon" thread that having the Order tell Xykon they know about the fortress would help their position - the very fact that they know about it, and got their info from the gods who are just on the edge of wiping out the world, should be a convincing argument that it's not as safe as he thinks it is.


Of course Xykon´s fortress is neither safe or hidden from the Big Guys. As Eugene pointed out, Celestia has beyond epic scrying power. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html)

The gods have settled non-interference clauses because, in Odin 's words, "if everyone could play in the sandbox all the time, there wouldn't be a lot of castles left unkicked." The moment the sandbox is out, there is a absolutely zero reasons for not paying a visit to the ballsy lich who tried to blackmail them. Xykon's ultra-megafortress of doom is just another sand castle for them.

[TRH]

I too expect the gods to solve the Xykon problem even after an entire book explaining why they can't, won't and shouldn't.

[Peelee]

I too expect the gods to solve the Xykon problem even after an entire book explaining why they can't, won't and shouldn't.

The Xykon problem is "Xykon is an existential threat to the world". The Xykon problem is not "after the universe was destroyed, he is hiding out in the astral plane until the next world is created".

The gods can't, won't, and shouldn't solve the first. There's no reason they can't, won't, or shouldn't solve the second, in the incredibly unlikely event it happens.

[dancrilis]

There's no reason they can't, won't, or shouldn't solve the second, in the incredibly unlikely event it happens.

It risks creating another snarl - the gods won't know if all the other gods are fine with them moving against Xykon unless they have a meeting to discuss it (and they should probably invite the Dark One to that meeting - somehow), and trying if they are not fine risks divine intervention.

They might have already agreed to do this (so no meeting needed) but they should still likely check with the Dark One in case he shows up to fight on Xykon's behalf.

[brian 333]

Hey, that world was a good run for us, wasn't it. It sucks that we were so close to fixing it except for that Xykon guy. Anyone object if I mind-wipe him and add him to my battery stockpile?

Hel, no. He's Evil and Northern, so he falls under your purview anyway.

[Peelee]

It risks creating another snarl - the gods won't know if all the other gods are fine with them moving against Xykon unless they have a meeting to discuss it (and they should probably invite the Dark One to that meeting - somehow), and trying if they are not fine risks divine intervention.

They might have already agreed to do this (so no meeting needed) but they should still likely check with the Dark One in case he shows up to fight on Xykon's behalf.

Seeing as they mind wipe all the outsiders, any remnants of a precious world would negate that, and they presumably already have a standing agreement to eliminate remnants of previous worlds.

And, all that aside, as you point out they could just discuss and almost certainly come to agreement to end him. I doubt TDO would have any issues, seeing how Xykon treated goblinoids In general and his high priest specifically. There's no reason whatsoever for anyone to want Xykon to remain.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think there would be any discussion, in the hypothetical where Xykon survived the end of the world, Thor would just zap him and none of the gods would object, why would they? He doesn't worship any of them so his soul isn't anybody's but the fiends'.

[hungrycrow]

I don't think there would be any discussion, in the hypothetical where Xykon survived the end of the world, Thor would just zap him and none of the gods would object, why would they? He doesn't worship any of them so his soul isn't anybody's but the fiends'.

Thor was about to kill the Dark One without running it by anyone so this checks out.

[dancrilis]

Seeing as they mind wipe all the outsiders, any remnants of a precious world would negate that, and they presumably already have a standing agreement to eliminate remnants of previous worlds.
I suspect that if the Snarl breaks out they pick up their things and race to their hidey hole to wait it out - don't pass go, don't wipe the minds of the outsiders, don't destroy any castles.

Then when they create the new world they wipe the outsiders minds (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html)), but they wipe them for a reason and that reason is to stop them going nuts it might not apply to non-outsiders - whether they bother with cleanup left over by the snarl who can say, Durkon has the same info we do and his mind was put at ease by Hilgya planning to escape.



And, all that aside, as you point out they could just discuss and almost certainly come to agreement to end him. I doubt TDO would have any issues, seeing how Xykon treated goblinoids In general and his high priest specifically. There's no reason whatsoever for anyone to want Xykon to remain.

If the gods destroy the world then Hel gets what she wants and becomes queen of the north - she might decide to demonstrate her power by pissing off the good gods and keeping Xykon around (or she might think having a powerful undead creature who began before the 'dawn of time' wandering around sets the scene for her new world) - any other deity might feel something similiar.

I suspect the gods would have no issue with him getting wiped out but I suspect they wouldn't want to risk that they were wrong and get into a fight over it - and that is assuming he doesn't level up in the meantime to actually be a threat.


I don't think there would be any discussion, in the hypothetical where Xykon survived the end of the world, Thor would just zap him and none of the gods would object, why would they? He doesn't worship any of them so his soul isn't anybody's but the fiends'.

Thor probably doesn't want to empower the lower planes - leaving Xykon alone might be a net good, centuries/millennia in isolation might change his prespective on things, such as with this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfMA2nFoPF0).

[DrivinAllNight]

LoL, {scrubbed} that joke hit the mark 🤣 on all 3 points 😆

[faustin]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

[Peelee]

I suspect that if the Snarl breaks out they pick up their things and race to their hidey hole to wait it out - don't pass go, don't wipe the minds of the outsiders, don't destroy any castles.

Then when they create the new world they wipe the outsiders minds (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html)), but they wipe them for a reason and that reason is to stop them going nuts it might not apply to non-outsiders - whether they bother with cleanup left over by the snarl who can say, Durkon has the same info we do and his mind was put at ease by Hilgya planning to escape.



If the gods destroy the world then Hel gets what she wants and becomes queen of the north - she might decide to demonstrate her power by pissing off the good gods and keeping Xykon around (or she might think having a powerful undead creature who began before the 'dawn of time' wandering around sets the scene for her new world) - any other deity might feel something similiar.

I suspect the gods would have no issue with him getting wiped out but I suspect they wouldn't want to risk that they were wrong and get into a fight over it - and that is assuming he doesn't level up in the meantime to actually be a threat.



Thor probably doesn't want to empower the lower planes - leaving Xykon alone might be a net good, centuries/millenniain isolation might change his prespective on things, such as with this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfMA2nFoPF0).

Everything you say is possible but also IMO exceedingly unlikely to the point that I don't even think it's worth seriously discussing.

[Fyraltari]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

I dunno, it feels on brand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) to me.

[dancrilis]

Everything you say is possible but also IMO exceedingly unlikely to the point that I don't even think it's worth seriously discussing.

When the conversation is on what happens to Xykon after the world is destroyed but he survives I think the question of it being a discussion that will lead to a meaningful outcome might have past.

I am just not sure that 'the gods make sure to kill/destroy everyone other then outsiders' is truely supported by the text.

[chrestomancy]

(apologies for the essay)

Having read through the comments on this strip, I think I have a slightly different view of Xykon than most of the rest of the readership. First off, I don't see
Start of Darkness - Right-Eye betraying Xykon incident as proving that Xykon is smart. I mean, he was perceptive enough to see it coming, and had taken a fairly general precaution against that betrayal, but a truly smart person/creature/ungodly abomination would have removed the threat when they weren't in the middle of another potentially life-threatening battle. Xykon doesn't do this. He doesn't plan. He waits things out, sees where they go.

I loved Xykon's discussion with V during the soul splice scry-and-die attack, because it encapsulates Xykon's approach completely. He works on his own individual powers, he invests in whatever will give him an overwhelming advantage in any given fight, then... just lets things play out. He's deadly because he's been using and refining his magic to keep himself alive, with no real tactical acumen for nearly a century now, and it's pretty close to perfect. He may not be stupid, but intelligence is not the stat he relies on in battle. He is not a Wizard. He won't start thinking like one, because he hates everything they stand for. He doesn't figure out the deeply complex web of interactions and predict what people will do. He doesn't infer the capabilities and powers of others through Sherlockian feats of deduction. He simply relies upon his own combat experience and decades of practical application of sorcery to batter anything and everything into submission or death. Mostly death. He would prefer to lose while blasting his way against his opponent than to win by becoming like the Wizards he despises and who have always looked down on him.

The other key point I don't see anybody making here is, Xykon is deeply fond of Redcloak. All the comments about him preparing for inevitable betrayal seem to imply he sees Redcloak as just another expendable minion, but I don't agree. Yes, he is probably expecting Redcloak will betray him some day - as any evil minion does, eventually. But I think that Xykon would prefer to leave dealing with that until the absolute last moment. He won't act first, beyond having some spells and magic items set up in advance of the battle. Because he'd rather continue his spree as an Evil Lord for another day than improve his chances of ultimate survival by killing redcloak and handing the mantle to a random Bugbear right now.

When Xykon and Redcloak were nearly killed by the Sapphire Guard positive energy ghost army, Xykon wasn't bitter. He was reflective and understanding, and bonded a bit with Redcloak. Sure, there's been many times Xykon's been vicious, he refuses to let Redcloak heal his missing eye due to the perceived betrayal in battle, he doesn't trust him with his Phylactery, he creates comedic and insulting graffiti, but even then, Redcloak is the person Xykon is prepared to include alongside himself in his art. He is usually very direct with Redcloak, sets out the terms of their relationship, then gets on with things. When the two of them met in
Start of Darkness, Xykon was old, and had run out of minions. For the last few decades, Redcloak has been his constant companion, and the MitD has been there for a long time now also

I don't think Xykon ever expected to rule the world. When he kicked this quest off, he was looking for a legacy, a big finale before he died. He's been enjoying every step of the way, more or less. Even when he's angry, he's fully immersed in being angry and lets loose, his interest in the grand quest is completely forgotten. He has his rampages, kills things out of hand and sets up petty, twisted acts of cruelty until he feels better. He won't move against the MitD or Redcloak until they actually betray him, because they are absolutely the last links to his mortal self, and the only things he cares about.

He was never a big-picture villain, who wanted to rule the world behind the scenes. If Redcloak dies before Xykon, my guess is he wouldn't even bother with the plan any further. Sure, he'd like to rule the world, but he's not planning to do much with it when he got there beyond make a giant statue to say he'd done it, then look for ways to amusingly torture people. The Redcloak/Xykon relationship isn't one of friends, both are too far twisted to feel anything like that, but it is still an emotionally close one, and Xykon does not want to lose Redcloak. Xykon uses Redcloak's guilt to bind him, and knows Redcloak has no love for him. He inflicts whatever harm he feels is necessary to keep Redcloak on the same path, even though it may be easier to just replace him. Because most of the fun Xykon has is a result of his relationship with Redcloak. He draws on the wall to make Redcloak angry. He could have drawn himself kicking Dorukan's butt, but without Redcloak to get angry about it, it isn't as much fun. He plays games with O'Chul in the acid tank in part because he wants to make Redcloak mad. He gets to goof off while pursuing world domination because he had Redcloak there to pick up all the slack, to play the adult. And sometimes they both get to have their evil yuks at the same time.

Xykon isn't keeping Redcloak alive because it's the smart thing to do. He isn't planning a complex strategy for when Redcloak betrays him, either. He's just riding this adventure enjoying every day, and when the final battle comes, he'll throw his all into that as well. Because it will be fun, and that is all that Xykon continues through undeath for.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD. That would be giving away his secret as regards MiTD that we see in SoD

[Frozenstep]

-snip-

Fantastic write up, there's a lot I agree with there.

But I still do read Xykon as smarter than he presents himself.

He did plan for Right-Eye's betrayal, and yes, it would have been safer/smarter to take care of him before a life-threatening battle. But I think that moment of shattering the hope someone had of taking him out right at the last moment is what he was going for. He plans, but he'd rather plan it out in a way so that he ends up tricking his opponent at the last moment in a more devastating way, rather then in an earlier, safer for him way.

His plans might not be mastermind stuff or anything, but he's often had a smart and relatively simply counter to whatever trump card/strategy an enemy has. For him, that's all it takes sometimes, and he seems to relish in pulling it off right in front of them. He'd rather walk up to Roy and shatter his one-hit sword in his face rather then backing up, but only because he had the perfect counter.

[Psyren]

Julio Scoundrel thinks it's a good bet. So does Hilgya.

1) And clearly they're the first two mortals in billions of worlds to come up with the idea.

2) From their perspective it IS a good idea. Stick around on the planet and you risk the Gods being too late to save you from oblivion, as they've failed to do before. Both characters have (or at least, believe they have) cushy afterlives waiting for them, so maximizing the chances of being scooped up by the gods instead of unmade is rational.


It risks creating another snarl - the gods won't know if all the other gods are fine with them moving against Xykon unless they have a meeting to discuss it (and they should probably invite the Dark One to that meeting - somehow), and trying if they are not fine risks divine intervention.

They might have already agreed to do this (so no meeting needed) but they should still likely check with the Dark One in case he shows up to fight on Xykon's behalf.

I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins, yet he's going to go to bat for Xykon? At a point in time where the Plan would have already explicitly failed?

[dancrilis]

I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins, yet he's going to go to bat for Xykon? At a point in time where the Plan would have already explicitly failed?

It isn't really a matter of the Dark One - it could be some minor elven deity, or some southern demigod of oddness or whatever.

For that matter having an intelligent powerful non-divine creature running around the new world might allow for that creature to immediately start collecting worshippers and so ascend without the direct backing of any pantheon and so restart the Loki plan to seal the snarl forever.

Ultimately Xykon as a Lich is simply not that important on a divine level to bother destroying outside of anything other then pettiness, and him ascending might be very useful - seperately he could be useful for 'random deity here' as part of some long term scheme for the new world, and so attacking him risks intervention and a potential other snarl.

[Peelee]

I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins, yet he's going to go to bat for Xykon? At a point in time where the Plan would have already explicitly failed?

Only Plan A would have already failed. Plan B would have already succeeded. Which, ya know, doesn't bode any better for ol' X.

It
Ultimately Xykon as a Lich is simply not that important on a divine level to bother destroying outside of anything other then pettiness
The gods systematically destroy the universe to rebuild from the ground up. You're thinking of it as important enough to destroy, but everyone gets destroyed or mind wiped. You're coming at it from the wrong way. He's simply not important enough to let slip through.

Its not like Inevitables aren't a thing, and that "attempting to escape the destruction of the universe" isn't something that is right up their alley. Toss enough of those out there and Xykon will fall no problem, along with any other stragglers hiding out in the planes.

[Fyraltari]

Fantastic write up, there's a lot I agree with there.

But I still do read Xykon as smarter than he presents himself.

He did plan for Right-Eye's betrayal, and yes, it would have been safer/smarter to take care of him before a life-threatening battle. But I think that moment of shattering the hope someone had of taking him out right at the last moment is what he was going for. He plans, but he'd rather plan it out in a way so that he ends up tricking his opponent at the last moment in a more devastating way, rather then in an earlier, safer for him way.

His plans might not be mastermind stuff or anything, but he's often had a smart and relatively simply counter to whatever trump card/strategy an enemy has. For him, that's all it takes sometimes, and he seems to relish in pulling it off right in front of them. He'd rather walk up to Roy and shatter his one-hit sword in his face rather then backing up, but only because he had the perfect counter.

In general, he seems to treat most things like a game. As long as his phylactery is accounted for, he feels invincible. There's no game-over for him, only reloading a save, so he's not going to sacrifice fun in the name of caution.

[Thermophille]

*snip*

Doesn't really affect your point, but I'm like 80% certain Xykon was lying about the ring to RC.

[CountDVB]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

I wonder if Redcloak considered this possibility... that does sound like Xykon...

[CountDVB]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

I mean, at his core, he's an immature sassy brat, the same one that would've fried ants with magnifying glass and pull wings off of flies.

Really, with him like that and Redcloak as the moody angsty team refusing to own up to his mistakes, Team Evil consists of two overgrown children and a literal kid with MitD.

Wonder what this means.

[Thermophille]

I mean, at his core, he's an immature sassy brat, the same one that would've fried ants with magnifying glass and pull wings off of flies.

Really, with him like that and Redcloak as the moody angsty team refusing to own up to his mistakes, Team Evil consists of two overgrown children and a literal kid with MitD.

Wonder what this means.

That harming others is usually a result of a lack of personal fulfillment?

[brian 333]

Xykon already belongs to Hel. He's a Northerner, he is undead, and he is Evil.

He might, if anyone cared to listen, make an argument to be tossed into his Alignment Plane, but I guarantee nobody in Hel's domain will care enough to take the rare, juicy beefburger soul of Xykon and toss it out. Certainly not anyone who does not wish to be in Hel's next bowl of chili.

[dancrilis]

The gods systematically destroy the universe to rebuild from the ground up. You're thinking of it as important enough to destroy, but everyone gets destroyed or mind wiped.

The outsiders get mindwiped to prevent them going crazy - there is little reason to assume that Hel wipes the minds of any undead she has in her domain to prevent them going crazy.

That the world gets destroyed is set, that outsiders get mind wiped is set, what happens to magical beasts, humanoids*, undead, fey, etc is unknown.

*they likely morph into outsiders over a long length of time, there exist a number of outsiders with that backstory.

[Peelee]

Xykon already belongs to Hel. He's a Northerner, he is undead, and he is Evil.

Hel is the northern god of the dishonored dead. Xykon doesnt believe in an honor system, and it's unlikely that Hel's domain is in the Abyss, IMO.

[danielxcutter]

Hel is NE I think?

[dancrilis]

Xykon ... He's a Northerner

Is he?
I might be forgetting a reference can you direct me to one?

[Larsaan]

Hel is the northern god of the dishonored dead.

That is one of her domains, although mainly in relation to dwarves. She introduced herself as "Goddess of Death" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), she has exclusive dibs on creating northern vampires, and from what we've seen the rest of the pantheon consider undead to be "her" creatures. Doesn't mean Xykon's soul is automatically hers, since you usually have to worship a deity (if only reluctantly) to go to their afterlife, but I don't think any of the others would dispute it if she staked a claim.

[bunsen_h]

The other key point I don't see anybody making here is, Xykon is deeply fond of Redcloak.

I don't see that at all. Xykon finds Redcloak to be highly useful. I don't think he's deeply fond of anyone apart from himself. I'm not sure that he's capable of being fond of anyone.


The outsiders get mindwiped to prevent them going crazy - there is little reason to assume that Hel wipes the minds of any undead she has in her domain to prevent them going crazy.

That the world gets destroyed is set, that outsiders get mind wiped is set, what happens to magical beasts, humanoids*, undead, fey, etc is unknown.

*they likely morph into outsiders over a long length of time, there exist a number of outsiders with that backstory.

Seems to me that it's important that nobody gets missed, or word will get out, which will cause trouble in future cycles.

[drazen]

Funny. Most of my elders say the pipes CAN'T stop flowing at a certain age.

Depends what's going on in the pipes. A close relative of mine nearly died from a cancerous obstruction of the biliary duct. He described the aftermath, even with a stent, as "trying to pee out glue."

[brian 333]

Hel is NE I think?


...He might, if anyone cared to listen, make an argument to be tossed into his Alignment Plane, but I guarantee nobody in Hel's domain will care enough to take the rare, juicy beefburger soul of Xykon and toss it out. Certainly not anyone who does not wish to be in Hel's next bowl of chili.


Is he (a Northener)?
I might be forgetting a reference can you direct me to one?

I don't have a reference, save that his pre-undeath story appears to take place in Eugene's homeland. I certainly could be wrong, in which case Nergal gets him. I rule out Southerner because he lacks the distinct accent.

[F.Harr]

Yay! What's-his-name survives to to Zykon's absentmindedness!

He seems to be getting thoughtful.

[Peelee]

That is one of her domains, although mainly in relation to dwarves. She introduced herself as "Goddess of Death" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), she has exclusive dibs on creating northern vampires, and from what we've seen the rest of the pantheon consider undead to be "her" creatures. Doesn't mean Xykon's soul is automatically hers, since you usually have to worship a deity (if only reluctantly) to go to their afterlife, but I don't think any of the others would dispute it if she staked a claim.

I don't think she'd want him, with likely alignment differences and all, since she doesn't seem to be chaotic. He seems a perfect candidate for bog standard Abyss.


I don't have a reference, save that his pre-undeath story appears to take place in Eugene's homeland. I certainly could be wrong, in which case Nergal gets him. I rule out Southerner because he lacks the distinct accent.

Just because a god is a god of death doesnt mean they get all souls that were turned undead.

[brian 333]

I don't think she'd want him, with likely alignment differences and all, since she doesn't seem to be chaotic. He seems a perfect candidate for bog standard Abyss.



Just because a god is a god of death doesnt mean they get all souls that were turned undead.

Okay. I'm not arguing that is the only answer; it's just my opinion based on what I've read. Elves have Elf gods, goblins have TDO, monsters have Fenris, reptilians have Tiamat. These are not the only options, certainly, except in the case of dishonored dwarves, but it appears to be a trend. It seems to me that gods in charge of undeath get the first crack at dead undead.

And afterlife planes aren't exclusive based on alignment or Durkon would never have gotten anywhere near Asgard.

[Peelee]

Okay. I'm not arguing that is the only answer; it's just my opinion based on what I've read. Elves have Elf gods, goblins have TDO, monsters have Fenris, reptilians have Tiamat. These are not the only options, certainly, except in the case of dishonored dwarves, but it appears to be a trend. It seems to me that gods in charge of undeath get the first crack at dead undead.

And afterlife planes aren't exclusive based on alignment or Durkon would never have gotten anywhere near Asgard.

Good souls seem to get first crack at where they want to go. I doubt this is the case for evil souls. Also, it seems like God's responsible for undead woudlnt have any advantage over destroyed undead - most undead don't have souls to start with (eg zombies, wights, skeletons, etc) and are simply animated husks, so the undeath god has no claim over the body's former soul. Some undead still have souls in some way, eg vampires, but those souls are already created by the god and the body's original soul isn't their concern normally. Some undead still have their original souls, eg liches, but the god is irrelevant to those undead as they never had any sort of hand in creating them.

The god being responsible for the undead in their realm doesnt seem like it would have any bearing on their claims for the souls.

[brian 333]

Good souls seem to get first crack at where they want to go. I doubt this is the case for evil souls. Also, it seems like God's responsible for undead woudlnt have any advantage over destroyed undead - most undead don't have souls to start with (eg zombies, wights, skeletons, etc) and are simply animated husks, so the undeath god has no claim over the body's former soul. Some undead still have souls in some way, eg vampires, but those souls are already created by the god and the body's original soul isn't their concern normally. Some undead still have their original souls, eg liches, but the god is irrelevant to those undead as they never had any sort of hand in creating them.

The god being responsible for the undead in their realm doesnt seem like it would have any bearing on their claims for the souls.

The god responsible for Xykon's creation was The Dark One. But, as Hel's example showed, the god whose powers created the undead don't automatically get them. I don't think Hel's claim on Northern vampires would have been different had Roy been vamped instead of Durkon, but dwarves are also a special case.

Ghouls, ghasts, wights, ghosts, and virtually all other undead have the soul the dead body was born with. I don't see why a deity of death and undeath wouldn't get to claim them unless there is active worship of another deity involved. There seems to be a deity arbitration clause among the Northern deities to settle such matters.

So, we each read the same stuff and came to different conclusions. That never happens. What next? Honest politicians and burglars who put your stolen stuff back? What a crazy world!

[Peelee]

The god responsible for Xykon's creation was The Dark One.

No god was responsible for Xykon's creation. If The Dark One is "responsible" because of Redcloak then so is Frenris because he created the goblins.

Lichification does not require a cleric. Redcloak just knew how to do it while Xykon didn't, and helped.

[brian 333]

No god was responsible for Xykon's creation. If The Dark One is "responsible" because of Redcloak then so is Frenris because he created the goblins.

Lichification does not require a cleric. Redcloak just knew how to do it while Xykon didn't, and helped.

Doesn't require, but divine magic from TDO was used, and his phylactery is a TDO holy symbol. But you will note I did say that the god who created the undead wasn't necessarily the one to gain the soul when its time was up, so it is a moot point anyway. I already acknowledged that you are right before you made the point.

[Xihirli]

Good souls seem to get first crack at where they want to go. I doubt this is the case for evil souls.

Indeed, every evil soul we've seen has been brought straight to an afterlife without any nice little reception area. Lee got all of Tarquin's soldiers in his inbox, and I doubt all of them thought of themselves as Lawful Evil. And Jirix was shot straight to the legions of TDO, but that might just be because he's a cleric of TDO, so of course he's going to that afterlife.

[danielxcutter]

Doesn't require, but divine magic from TDO was used, and his phylactery is a TDO holy symbol. But you will note I did say that the god who created the undead wasn't necessarily the one to gain the soul when its time was up, so it is a moot point anyway. I already acknowledged that you are right before you made the point.

I’m fairly sure Redcloak mostly provided the feats. IIRC you can work with other casters to make items if one of you lack the prereqs or something.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon already belongs to Hel. He's a Northerner, he is undead, and he is Evil.
No he doesn't. She's only getting dwarves these days.

It seems pretty clear cut to me that the gods only get the souls of their worshippers (with The Bet being a special exception) and the people who don't worship anyone in particular, like Xykon or the Greenhilts go to the standard alignment planes.

I don't see that at all. Xykon finds Redcloak to be highly useful. I don't think he's deeply fond of anyone apart from himself. I'm not sure that he's capable of being fond of anyone.

I think Xykon is fond of Redcloak in the sense that Redcloak is his favourite chewtoy. Abusing Redcloak is simply more fun than abusing random strangers.

[MaverickMopete]

Good souls seem to get first crack at where they want to go.

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Had Roy left Elan to die, he would have been kicked into the True Neutral afterlife, and his usage of chaotic means to fulfill lawful ends almost got him bumped over to the Neutral Good afterlife.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Had Roy left Elan to die, he would have been kicked into the True Neutral afterlife, and his usage of chaotic means to fulfill lawful ends almost got him bumped over to the Neutral Good afterlife.

Yes but it does sound like the good planes give them more of a benefit of the doubt.

[faustin]

The gods systematically destroy the universe to rebuild from the ground up. You're thinking of it as important enough to destroy, but everyone gets destroyed or mind wiped. You're coming at it from the wrong way. He's simply not important enough to let slip through.

Its not like Inevitables aren't a thing, and that "attempting to escape the destruction of the universe" isn't something that is right up their alley. Toss enough of those out there and Xykon will fall no problem, along with any other stragglers hiding out in the planes.

Does that mean the Gods will have to "silence" refugees like Julia Greenhilt in order to keep the secret of the Snarl, as they have probably done countless times before? :0

[Ruck]

Does that mean the Gods will have to "silence" refugees like Julia Greenhilt in order to keep the secret of the Snarl, as they have probably done countless times before? :0

I'm confused. How is Julia a refugee?

And since the gods apparently destroy the entire world and every living mortal in order to collect their souls before the Snarl destroys them... Yeah, I would think so.

[Peelee]

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Had Roy left Elan to die, he would have been kicked into the True Neutral afterlife, and his usage of chaotic means to fulfill lawful ends almost got him bumped over to the Neutral Good afterlife.

Sure, but he still went to the gates of Celestia first for review, which fits what I said. Whether he got in or not is irrelevant.

[dancrilis]

Sure, but he still went to the gates of Celestia first for review, which fits what I said. Whether he got in or not is irrelevant.

It kindof is relevant - if he was neutral he would not be a good soul but presumedly he would still have thought of himself as lawful good and would have done the interview and failed.

This seems likely the way it works for everyone in my mind - they go where they think they deserve.

For instance Tarquin soldier #45 is neutral but they hate themselves for supporting an evil empire, and they think they are wretched and evil for not doing more to oppose or stand up for the little people - they likely go to one of the lower planes and then are kicked to the outlands as they just really aren't 'hell', 'gehenna' or 'abyss' people.

You could ask why the fiends would do this rather then capturing the free soul? - well there are possible a lot more evil people who think they are good then good people who think they are evil and if the fiends start withholding souls the upper planes may also leading to an net loss for the forces of darkness.

[Vikenlugaid]

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Had Roy left Elan to die, he would have been kicked into the True Neutral afterlife, and his usage of chaotic means to fulfill lawful ends almost got him bumped over to the Neutral Good afterlife.
If Roy would have left Elan to die, he wouldn't have been a good soul anymore, aparently.

[Mic_128]

And Jirix was shot straight to the legions of TDO, but that might just be because he's a cleric of TDO, so of course he's going to that afterlife.

That could be in part because TDO hasn't had the time/practice/inclination/place to set up a welcome landing.



I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins,

I mean, he's shown his support by implication, of Redcloak still getting magic spells from him, and second-hand, with him encouraging Jirix.

[The MunchKING]

Indeed, every evil soul we've seen has been brought straight to an afterlife without any nice little reception area. Lee got all of Tarquin's soldiers in his inbox, and I doubt all of them thought of themselves as Lawful Evil. And Jirix was shot straight to the legions of TDO, but that might just be because he's a cleric of TDO, so of course he's going to that afterlife.

That's probably like Durkon going straight to Thor. If your Big Guy puts in even a bit of effort they can prejudge you and none of the normal outsiders can really gainsay them.

[Peelee]

It kindof is relevant - if he was neutral he would not be a good soul but presumedly he would still have thought of himself as lawful good and would have done the interview and failed.

...yes? That's my point. It's not relevant whether he passed or failed the interview, he still went to Celestia to be judged first because that's where he wanted to go.

[dancrilis]

...yes? That's my point. It's not relevant whether he passed or failed the interview, he still went to Celestia to be judged first because that's where he wanted to go.

I may have misread you, I read:


Good souls seem to get first crack at where they want to go. I doubt this is the case for evil souls.

As you thinking the the souls alignment mattered in the process i.e go where you think you should go, get sent to where you should be.

Now I am thinking that you meant 'good souls get into where they likely want to get into, evil souls likely want to avoid where they are heading'.

But I have read people wrong before and I can imagine other interpretations.

[Peelee]

I may have misread you, I read:



As you thinking the the souls alignment mattered in the process i.e go where you think you should go, get sent to where you should be.

Now I am thinking that you meant 'good souls get into where they likely want to get into, evil souls likely want to avoid where they are heading'.

But I have read people wrong before and I can imagine other interpretations.

Keep in mind, I do have a theory in which the universe eyeballs alignment and calls it a day during life, and only when one gets to the afterlife to the kitty gritty details get sorted out. The universe likely saw Roy as probably Good so he went to Celestia, where he wanted to go, and where they put his life under a microscope and almost called him True Neutral. That review is unnecessary if living alignment is 100% accurate. Even if Roy was Neutral, he thought he was Good, the universe thought he was Good, and he got to interview at the Good afterlife.

I think, for example, this same scenario happened with Miko and all the rest of the Azurites. I do not think, for example, that Belkar might get to see the glades of Arborea if he had died in the war, and would have been dumped straight to the Abyss files.

[Psyren]

Indeed, every evil soul we've seen has been brought straight to an afterlife without any nice little reception area. Lee got all of Tarquin's soldiers in his inbox, and I doubt all of them thought of themselves as Lawful Evil. And Jirix was shot straight to the legions of TDO, but that might just be because he's a cleric of TDO, so of course he's going to that afterlife.

They might not have thought of themselves as LE, but they definitely thought of themselves as followers of Tarquin (a LE regime), so Lee getting first crack makes sense. Whether the inbox means the review was a foregone conclusion or it leads to the review is unclear.

To use another fictional example - all the Stormtroopers in Star Wars would probably get assigned to the same OotS intake initially, before outliers like Finn could be discovered and potentially reassigned, assuming he had died before quitting for example.



I mean, he's shown his support by implication, of Redcloak still getting magic spells from him, and second-hand, with him encouraging Jirix.

1) "Get back to work, and tell my assistant I said 'don't screw this up'" is not a whole lot in the way of "encouragement."

2) Of course he's still granting Redcloak spells, RC is still making progress on The Plan. And RC is the guy who considered trashing the current world and letting TDO have a say in the next one to be a feasible alternative. If TDO thinks even remotely along those lines then his level of care for these goblins in this world is questionable.

[bunsen_h]

Indeed, every evil soul we've seen has been brought straight to an afterlife without any nice little reception area. Lee got all of Tarquin's soldiers in his inbox, and I doubt all of them thought of themselves as Lawful Evil. And Jirix was shot straight to the legions of TDO, but that might just be because he's a cleric of TDO, so of course he's going to that afterlife.

I don't see any indication that Lee got all of Tarquin's soldiers. Some of them, yes, along with some who don't look anything like Tarquin's soldiers (so far as can be inferred from their garb).

[Fyraltari]

when one gets to the afterlife [...] the kitty gritty details get sorted out.

I believe only the Beastlands deal with those.

[Peelee]

I believe only the Beastlands deal with those.
Well, at least that's one example of my autocorrect going to a word I actually use frequently.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Indeed, every evil soul we've seen has been brought straight to an afterlife without any nice little reception area. That's only true with the "nice" and "little" qualifiers.

Roy went to a nice big reception area for processing.

The Director Lee's inbox wasn't nice, but an inbox is a reception area for things that will require further sorting. It could be that Lee can't/ doesn't want to keep all of the souls in his inbox.

[bunsen_h]

That's only true with the "nice" and "little" qualifiers.

Roy went to a nice big reception area for processing.

The Director Lee's inbox wasn't nice, but an inbox is a reception area for things that will require further sorting. It could be that Lee can't/ doesn't want to keep all of the souls in his inbox.

"Uh-oh. We've got a record here of you gently picking up a cute kitten and playing with it. Now, if you hadn't done that just to make a good appearance when you bought it, before you sacrificed it brutally in a summoning ritual, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now..."

[InvisibleBison]

They might not have thought of themselves as LE, but they definitely thought of themselves as followers of Tarquin (a LE regime), so Lee getting first crack makes sense. Whether the inbox means the review was a foregone conclusion or it leads to the review is unclear.

It's also possible that the soldiers are being sent to Lee's inbox after they've gone through the review.

[Peelee]

It's also possible that the soldiers are being sent to Lee's inbox after they've gone through the review.

Indeed, but an inbox seems roughly fitting for a Lawful Evil afterlife. The soul is treated as little more than paperwork to be efficiently sorted.

[Eric the White]

Keep in mind, I do have a theory in which the universe eyeballs alignment and calls it a day during life, and only when one gets to the afterlife to the kitty gritty details get sorted out. The universe likely saw Roy as probably Good so he went to Celestia, where he wanted to go, and where they put his life under a microscope and almost called him True Neutral. That review is unnecessary if living alignment is 100% accurate. Even if Roy was Neutral, he thought he was Good, the universe thought he was Good, and he got to interview at the Good afterlife.

I think, for example, this same scenario happened with Miko and all the rest of the Azurites. I do not think, for example, that Belkar might get to see the glades of Arborea if he had died in the war, and would have been dumped straight to the Abyss files.

Heheh I saw the "kitty gritty" and was immediately brought to mind all of the forum arguments about alignment - being like a litter box. I know that's not what you were saying but I found it really amusing anyhow. I agree with you that there's no hard rule until its time to get sorted into your final alignment location, but I think theres another factor here. The Lawful Good folks care that you want to be lawful good. Intent matters to them. The Chaotic evil gatekeepers, probably not so much. If you land on their doorstep because that was what was written on your sheet, then I imagine they're happy to take you even if you really swing toward lawful or neutral. More power for them.

[Fyraltari]

I agree with the whole "the universe does a kind of quick and dirty estimate until it's time to do a proper review" theory, but I think all the planes have to do a proper review regardless of alignment because they metaphysically couldn't take in someone who's not a match. Otherwise, the "good" planes would be unspeakably cruel by sending someone to the bad afterlives and very dumb to pass up useful soul-energy and delivering it to their ennemies/competition.

[Eric the White]

I agree with the whole "the universe does a kind of quick and dirty estimate until it's time to do a proper review" theory, but I think all the planes have to do a proper review regardless of alignment because they metaphysically couldn't take in someone who's not a match. Otherwise, the "good" planes would be unspeakably cruel by sending someone to the bad afterlives and very dumb to pass up useful soul-energy and delivering it to their ennemies/competition.

Yes, the good care about that sort of thing. I'll bet the evil doesnt. They'll go ahead and take a edge case and take the power and frankly be a bit gleeful that they got away with something.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, the good care about that sort of thing. I'll bet the evil doesnt. They'll go ahead and take a edge case and take the power and frankly be a bit gleeful that they got away with something.

So you think the good planes are being unnecessarily cruel and giving themselves a disadvantage? Why?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So you think the good planes are being unnecessarily cruel and giving themselves a disadvantage? Why?

More likely, they have to be stricter than the Evil planes because they probably get a lot more people that think they are good, but in fact have lead rather anodyne, petty lives that land them more in the neutral bag. Few people actually think of themselves as Evil, after all ("everyone is the hero of their own story" and all that). And because I'd imagine that accepting a soul whose alignment doesn't work is a waste*, the Good afterlives have to be more thorough, whilst the Evil ones just have to send back up the (presumably far smaller number of) people who somehow think themselves Evil even though they are actually Neutral (or in some extreme cases Good but brown beaten into thinking they aren't - sad, not unheard of, but not the masses of, say, racist people who think themselves Good because they are better than those people of a different complexion).

Grey Wolf

*Headcanon: it takes a small amount of energy to process soul energy, but that energy feeds its alignment plane regardless of who process it, so an Evil plane doesn't want to waste any energy processing a soul just to watch the energy end up in the Neutral plane where they should have sent the soul to start with

[Fyraltari]

More likely, they have to be stricter than the Evil planes because they probably get a lot more people that think they are good, but in fact have lead rather anodyne, petty lives that land them more in the neutral bag. Few people actually think of themselves as Evil, after all ("everyone is the hero of their own story" and all that). And because I'd imagine that accepting a soul whose alignment doesn't work is a waste, the Good afterlives have to be more thorough, whilst the Evil ones just have to send back up the (presumably far smaller number of) people who somehow think themselves Evil even though they are actually Neutral (or in some extreme cases Good but brown beaten into thinking they aren't - sad, not unheard of, but not the masses of, say, racist people who think themselves Good because they are better than those people of a different complexion).

Grey Wolf

The argument wasn't whether one side has to deal with this more often than the other, though, it was whether all the sides actually do this or whether the Evil side (and presumably some of the neutral ones) just let in whomever.

[brian 333]

So you think the good planes are being unnecessarily cruel and giving themselves a disadvantage? Why?

Good, especially Lawful Good, always takes one for the team.

But Thor's Lawful worshippers go to Asgard which is anything but Lawful, and it doesn't appear to bother anyone. Why should an Evil deity care what alignment shows up on its doorstep? After a few million lashings with firey whips, the non-evils will gladly take a turn at being the lasher. Eventually, administering regularly scheduled lashings will be the least sucky part of the day. And then the souls won't be the wrong alignment and the plane can begin to absorb them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The argument wasn't whether one side has to deal with this more often than the other, though, it was whether all the sides actually do this or whether the Evil side (and presumably some of the neutral ones) just let in whomever.

I know? I was just kinda agreeing with you, but explaining why Evil might be less strict in their procedures without them taking in Neutral souls that don't belong to them.

Or in short, I as going off on a tangent. See also the late addition footnote

GW

[Psyren]

It's also possible that the soldiers are being sent to Lee's inbox after they've gone through the review.

That's what the first part of that sentence was meant to represent.

[dancrilis]

Keep in mind, I do have a theory in which the universe eyeballs alignment and calls it a day during life, and only when one gets to the afterlife to the kitty gritty details get sorted out. The universe likely saw Roy as probably Good so he went to Celestia, where he wanted to go, and where they put his life under a microscope and almost called him True Neutral. That review is unnecessary if living alignment is 100% accurate. Even if Roy was Neutral, he thought he was Good, the universe thought he was Good, and he got to interview at the Good afterlife.

I think, for example, this same scenario happened with Miko and all the rest of the Azurites. I do not think, for example, that Belkar might get to see the glades of Arborea if he had died in the war, and would have been dumped straight to the Abyss files.

Fair enough in general but I will challenge this.


That review is unnecessary if living alignment is 100% accurate.

There would still be a point to having the review.

Lets say Roy was actually Neutral - doing the review helps him know what he could do better to be Lawful Good should he return to life, and thereby a net positive for the forces of law and good.
Lets say Roy was actually Lawful Good but dangerously close to that corner that attaches to Neutral - doing the review helps him know where he is slipping up on his lawful and good behaviour.

It benefits the Lawful Good planes to help people who want to be Lawful Good to actually be Lawful Good (or to be Lawful Good better).


Why should an Evil deity care what alignment shows up on its doorstep?

Think of it like a hostage exchange.
GroupA is LG and GroupB is CE.

Many people who should belong to GroupB somehow manage to end up in GroupA and very few people who are in GroupA end up sorted to GroupB.
GroupB has an interest in getting all its people because they represent power.
GroupA has an interest in getting all its people because leaving them to suffer goes against their very nature.

GroupA and GroupB agree to trade each others people on mass to each other.
GroupA thereby saves all their people without any effort.
GroupB ends up with more people it can use as a resource without any effort.

Both sides end up with what they want.

If GroupB breaks the agreement then GroupA might withhold the incorrectly sorted people on their end which hurts GroupB much more then it helps them.

[Mic_128]

1) "Get back to work, and tell my assistant I said 'don't screw this up'" is not a whole lot in the way of "encouragement."

No, I said he encouraged Jirix.