MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4

If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:

1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?


Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene [Tower scene - ed] -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.

This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.


[Question: has anyone out there made a guess or come to the wrong conclusion but made you think ‘that’s better than what it really is, even for a second?]
No, because if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.


Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's first look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?

MitD enjoying the sunshine:

MitD: Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—


Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place


Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:



Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils
Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons
Lawful Good: Archons


Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons
True Neutral: Rilmani
Neutral Good: Guardinals


Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons
Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi
Chaotic Good: Eladrin



Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle
Section 1m: MitD's Species SizeWe know that MitD has not yet reached his adult size, both from MitD's recollection of a much bigger father, and from Oona's comment that he is "so small, but will grow in time". The question, then, is how much bigger we can expect the base species to be. To answer this, size categories as used in D&D must be understood to be a logarithmic scale - each size category is double the height of the previous (length for quadrupeds) - a Medium size creature is up to 8 feet tall, a Large one 16, a Huge one 32, etc. While a child-sized Large or even Huge creature could be argued for (and is the basis for the size restriction in the FBS rules in section 3a), anything beyond has generally been found to be hard to justify. In part due to the general agreement that MitD is a pre-teen (due to his attitudes towards sex & boys-only clubs), which suggests he still has some growth to do before he becomes an adult - but not a huge growth. Humans, for example, grow about 20-30% of their height during adolescence. In D&D size terms, that might push you through one size category, but not through two (which would require more than doubling your height).

A second consideration is strength - larger creatures are, of course, stronger, but children are weaker than full grown adults. In the D&D ruleset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), there exists a strength growth chart for creature size advancement that can serve as a guideline to how strength changes between sizes:

Old SizeNew SizeStrDexConNat. ArmorAC/ Attack
FineDiminutiveSame-2SameSame-4
DiminutiveTiny+2-2SameSame-2
TinySmall+4-2SameSame-1
SmallMedium+4-2+2Same-1
MediumLarge+8-2+4+2-1
LargeHuge+8-2+4+3-1
HugeGargantuan+8Same+4+4-2
GargantuanColossal+8Same+4+5-4

Dragons, as one of the few species with detailed statblocks for multiple stages of development, adhere to the above strength growth, usually splitting it across the age groups that share a size.


Version History

1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047")
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378)
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584536)
14 - MitD XIV: High In Protean (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611229)
15 - MitD XV: The Other Dark One (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615971)
16 - MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietFor most of the comic & prequel, MitD was almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)
Xykon claims he has "read someplace (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html)" that MitD's species considers dwarves a delicacy (MitD disputes this)

As of #1260 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html), MitD claims to not having been as hungry for the last few days ("not like super full, but I'm not starving. It's fine"). There is so far little consensus about the cause, but the following have been suggested as possibilities:

He is lying, not unlike the time he extemporised to stop Xykon from attacking the OotS at the desert; although this sitution feels different - for one thing, MitD doesn't know who these dwarves being offered are, and thus doesn't seem as conflicted about their impending deaths.
He is approaching some kind of developmental stage (like a caterpillar about to cocoon, or in D&D Barghest about to go Greater Barghest)
The caves are sustaining him, just like (presumably) they sustain all other powerful creatures inside them
He is in his species' preferred climate, being shown by his energy consumption being lowered


GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the far-back position of the stomp suggests he is either bipedal but crouched over, or walks in multiple 3+ legs, with some far behind the head's position.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower is nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wrack Earth (PH2)

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does not see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.


Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:

Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:

The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.


It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:

He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)


Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding tempaltes, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:

No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)


Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."

Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, and has mentioned working on the template chapter, therefore could be his creation, no real way to be sure.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.

Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.

Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).

Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the the stomp with earthquake.

Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).

Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the Tower scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.

Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.

Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.

Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:

The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 19 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:

18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon LordAs per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size/strength requirement

Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication

Cons:
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich. Post no longer exists. Closest official version (http://www.athas.org/products/loa) (Legends of Athas beta pdf) Jasdoif could find is gargantuan, and from 2008

Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking (http://img04.deviantart.net/0731/i/2013/107/3/8/glabrezu_by_vegasmike-d622krv.jpg), while not being immediately recognisable as a demon
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.

Cons: Huge by base, would require MitD to be less than half-adult sized
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Can see through magical darkness due to True Seeing
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Despite being capable of speaking any language, Proteans normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same), and is specially an issue while he sleeps, since he likely cannot spend actions to keep a face then (however, see this essay (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) giving plausible story reasons why MitD might want to keep his eyes steady, and he might be faking sleep, or his eyes are not visible at all when he sleeps and the lines drawn are for visual communication only)

Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:

CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list

Cons:

Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport (although it is not clear how he'd know where to send them)
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a science fiction character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one is Large. Black is Huge.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box, and doesn't need for MitD to be much smaller than adult to fit under the umbrella
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.


Xenocrysth (Hyperconscious: Exploration in Psionics)Pros:

Strength 43, High AC, DR
Psionic Teleport, and ability to read minds, which would allow him to pick up the destination from V's mind
Unusual appearance
Telepathic, so surprising one chooses to talk rather than "impart their thoughts directly into the mind of those with whom they wish to communicate"

Cons:
More terrifying than vomit-inducing appearance
No legs to stomp with, but the end of its tail does have a mace-like protrusion that could have been used instead
Gargantuan, although a very small gargantuan by size (30 ft in length, is actually shorter than the minimum). MitD can be argued to be a mere 25% of its standard size (two categories), which even with hefty strength penalties would still make him quite strong
Fluff suggests they are formed from psionic nightmares, rather than through reproduction, but it is vague hearsay, and possibly wrong ("Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Plea’s progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures")
Hard to reconcile with RC's difficulty in establishing if psionic rules are in place in OotS, since a Xenocrysth comes from a psionic manual, although it could be that its Catapsi Leech ability was impeding any other psionic's from properly demonstrating their abilities to RC.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a significant problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has enjoyed being in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light (see section 1a - Published Canon)
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
IT (Stephen King's IT)
Kirby(Kirby)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
Mario (Super Mario Brothers)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (https://web.archive.org/web/20200716232110/https://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
Shadowchild (Digger)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Wile E. Coyote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488) (Looney Tunes)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Continued

Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Bulette (Land Shark)Can't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
ChronotyrynLarge, and can teleport, but has low Str (26), isn't particularly revolting-looking (it's a bird with arms) and not surprising it can speak ("dual voice").
Coco, elCreature from Spanish mythology that hides in the shadows and eats (misbehaving) children. Unclear if he is strong enough, probably can't teleport, and both the shadow hiding and children eating are the opposite of MitD's
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how someone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope or painting the doors). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength below appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric". Can speak multiple languages (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), and thus would not be surprising it talked in common.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidaur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:

High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.

Cons:

Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
PrimusThe supreme modron, has a bunch of powers, including teleport, but is too unique to be MitD (more a position than a creature type), is not particularly revolting, and cannot be mind controlled.
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Tarasque, original mythological version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
No reason why he'd remember a bigger father, or why Oona would expect him to grow.
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Thread Information

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blanket ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.

Voting record

Aug-2013 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15886318&postcount=369); Result: "Size no bigger than huge" & "no immunity to mind control" added to FB requirements
Mar-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23792722&postcount=1036); Result:No change
Aug-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24081940&postcount=920); Result: No change
Jul-2020 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24618514&postcount=9); Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species



Section 4c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore. And it was 14 threads before anyone thought to suggest the xenocrysth, a remarkably good fit that you'd think would've been brought up much sooner.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).
Are templated creatures allowed?Yes and no. You can put in a guess (that will be recorded in Crusher's list of guesses post) with as many templates, class levels, HD boosts, etc as you feel is called for. But when it comes to recording suggestions (section 3), only the base creature, as described in the statblock, is listed - templates are instead classified in section 2d. The reason for this is twofold: first, as per section 2d, templates are a kind of crutch, since they can be used by any creature, so it doesn't so much explain an MitD characteristic as much as declare it is not such, since others of his species can't do what he can.

But more importantly, the number of combinations of template and creature is practically infinite. I don't want to have to insert or maintain entries for species X; species X-template A; species X - template B; species X, templates A & B; etc. - because in the end, the information all those would contain is the entry for species X, and the information under the template entries in 2d. No need to duplicate the information.

[Ruck]

As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.

The original essay is posted here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) With some minor revisions:


First, the background to my process:

Preamble

I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

Part 1: The Negative Case

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23810694&postcount=3), every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:


The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:



A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).
Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.)

It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. Or that we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.

Peelee has a theory (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24575576&postcount=404) that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:


If an ever-shifting monster is kept as a surprise, the eyes will not spoil the surprise, because that's how the universe works.

In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be.

(NobleCuriosity has a good post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23634830&postcount=58) further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.

While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19156714#post19156714)). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html): As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).

My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

Part 2: The Positive Case

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesn’t conflict with my art explanation for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

So, the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.

Part 3: The Thematic Case

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23690023&postcount=186), to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23782161&postcount=811) and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) seen signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) of his intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) about character choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right/page2&p=19193861#post19193861), I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway).

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.

Conclusion

In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITD’s scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules to work (or the rules of space and time). I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

[chy03001]

I still say MitD is a Pit Fiend. The only argument against Pit Fiend I can see is that Pit Fiends can create undead and RC says MitD can't help him with that.

However, the actual wording is that RC was "zombifying the monsters". Pit Fiends don't know the 3rd level cleric spell "animate dead". Instead they know the 6th level cleric spell "create undead" which does not actually create "zombies" but does create stronger undead like ghasts.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html

[Sir_Norbert]

Just my luck.

Seeing that the end of one thread and start of another was close, I had a great joke post planned about how MitD is obviously Yukari Yakumo from Touhou and I can't believe no-one suggested this before.

Then we get an actual MitD appearance and suddenly it doesn't seem like a great idea to be begging for attention with a stupid joke post any more. Ah well.

[b_jonas]

Section 6: Appearances of the MitD

Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.

#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) Team evil heads into Kraagor's Tomb, apparently not the first time. To know which entrances they've explored, they mark the door with paint. MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
#1189: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) Redcloak sees a lots of doors marked, concludes they've explored them quickly. Oona disagrees, but MitD takes Redcloak's side to move on from that topic and cover his trick.
#1259: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) Lien mentions MitD.
#1260: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html) MitD is no longer always hungry. Hobgoblin named Haarko feeds him stew. Xykon is surprised and doesn't like this: he needs the MitD to be able to eat the heroes. Xykon says that he read that the MitD's kind likes to eat dwarves, but MitD disagrees.
#1261: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html) MitD asks where Redcloak is. MitD can recognize Redcloak on Xykon's drawing.
#1263: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html) MitD awkwardly tries to deflect suspicion from that he made the extra marks on the door, both Redcloak and Xykon are apparently too busy to notice this. MitD hopes that he managed to delay the search for the gate significantly with that ploy, but Redcloak explains why it doesn't matter too much.
#1264: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1264.html) MitD hopes that searching the gate will take lots of time. “What gate?” joke is back as Redcloak summons Modrons with a Gate spell.
#1265: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html) MitD is disappointed because the Quinton can keep track of doors so marking them with paint will no longer be necessary.
#1266: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html) One unclear line by MitD.
#1267: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1267.html) MitD asks tricky questions from Xykon to try to confuse him into losing the word game that is the price for the Quinton's help. MitD can't remember whether he had a name.


Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.

Section 6c: Appearances in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2) and other books by the Giant. (https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) (Book 2)
#194a: unknown (I don't have the book)
War and XPs (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS03.html) (Book 3)
#415a: unknown (I don't have the book)
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2)
Page 28, in the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.

Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.
2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584536).
2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.
2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.
2020-04-29: Copied everything to MitD thread number 14.
2020-06-16: Give more context for #1039. Text was just "MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight." Describe 1189.
2020-07-17: Copied post to to thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One. It is numbered section 6 deliberately, despite that it's posted above section 5 the list of guesses, to keep section numbers stable if reasonably possible.
2020-08-19: Stubs for bonus strip #415a in book 3, and #194a in book 2.
2022-06-12: Add #1259.
2022-08-13: Copied post to thread “MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977); added #1260 to #1264.
2022-10-11: Added #1265 to #1267.

Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

[mjasghar]

Sorry to be a pain but didn’t Miko try Smite Evil on MitD? And it didn’t have much effect? That surely rules out an evil aligned species like a pit fiend which are still vulnerable to anti evil stuff if they turn good.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry to be a pain but didn’t Miko try Smite Evil on MitD? And it didn’t have much effect? That surely rules out an evil aligned species like a pit fiend which are still vulnerable to anti evil stuff if they turn good.

She did, and that's a novel point. I assume that Smite Evil can still fail if you can't get past the AC/DR? How much damage are we talking about here - a mere double the usual damage, or something ludicrous like the damage output of a 20th level backstabber?

The general explanation for "it tickles" is that his defences/DR/HP is so high that it was but a scratch (for reals, not the Monty Pythin type), but that might not apply to an Evil creature hit by a Holy Strike?


(Alternatively, he is effectively invisible, so it could be she didn't even connect, but if then she wouldn't be so shocked - I think it's more likely she did connect, with little consequence)

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

Iirc from the time she tried it on Roy she knows when it’s activated by alignment. So maybe the surprise was the MitD wasn’t Evil.

[hamishspence]

She did, and that's a novel point. I assume that Smite Evil can still fail if you can't get past the AC/DR? How much damage are we talking about here - a mere double the usual damage, or something ludicrous like the damage output of a 20th level backstabber?


1 extra point per paladin level - so, 10-14 pts of extra damage in Miko's case. Average damage for a Str 13 (minimum for her, since she often wields her katana one handed, as an exotic weapon, with a shorter sword in her off hand) character is not going to be very high - perhaps half that. So, we're looking at triple the usual damage for a hit, or so. Less if she's very high Str, and routinely Power Attacks.


Iirc from the time she tried it on Roy she knows when it’s activated by alignment.
The "attack glow" appears before the actual strike is delivered - so it's not absence of glow that clues her in, so much as inadequate damage - "My strike should have finished you off".

[Qwertystop]

She did, and that's a novel point. I assume that Smite Evil can still fail if you can't get past the AC/DR? How much damage are we talking about here - a mere double the usual damage, or something ludicrous like the damage output of a 20th level backstabber?

The general explanation for "it tickles" is that his defences/DR/HP is so high that it was but a scratch (for reals, not the Monty Pythin type), but that might not apply to an Evil creature hit by a Holy Strike?


(Alternatively, he is effectively invisible, so it could be she didn't even connect, but if then she wouldn't be so shocked - I think it's more likely she did connect, with little consequence)

Grey Wolf

Standard weapon damage for the attack plus one damage per Paladin level, and Charisma added to the attack roll; definitely possible for it to be negligible damage or sufficient AC to not deal damage.

[Shining Wrath]

You guys are neglecting the important point that Miko had negative charisma. :smallbiggrin: Not really, of course.

Assuming that Miko would put at least some effort into boosting Charisma, as it is a Paladin's casting stat, her Smite Evil probably added another 20 points of damage to the normal weapon damage of perhaps 10 to 15 points of damage, depending on strength and enchantments. If we're going with the "this scene is to show MitD is ludicrously powerful" theme, we don't know whether or not the Smite effect worked, as he could have DR of 25 or 50 or whatever.

So I don't think the failure of Smite Evil to have much effect can be used as a statement that MitD was not evil at that time.

[hamishspence]

Assuming that Miko would put at least some effort into boosting Charisma, as it is a Paladin's casting stat, her Smite Evil probably added another 20 points of damage to the normal weapon damage of perhaps 10 to 15 points of damage, depending on strength and enchantments.



High Charisma applied to Smite Evil means you hit more often, not you hit harder - a Charisma 20 1st level Paladin and a Charisma 11 1st level paladin both do exactly the same damage, all other things being equal (Str, weapon, etc).

[Lord Torath]

So... we're good to post here, now?

Regarding the Athasian Nightmare Beast, it was originally published in 1992 in Monstrous Compendium 12: Terrors of the Desert, well before Strip 100 was published.

[dancrilis]

She did

Did she? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)

I might be overlooking something but I am not seeing her declare the monster to be evil let alone trying to smite him.

[Qwertystop]

High Charisma applied to Smite Evil means you hit more often, not you hit harder - a Charisma 20 1st level Paladin and a Charisma 11 1st level paladin both do exactly the same damage, all other things being equal (Str, weapon, etc).

Except that having more of a bonus to attack from Charisma allows you to Power Attack for more damage while still reliably hitting. That may or may not apply here, though; on the one hand, "an unknown, obscured for" doesn't seem like a time to drop accuracy since you don't know how much you'll need; on the other hand, it's Miko, she can definitely be reckless like that; on the gripping hand, she planned to attack harder when she expected him to just stand there and take it (before she was unexpectedly knocked through the wall), so she didn't Power Attack for *everything* she could.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did she? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)

I might be overlooking something but I am not seeing her declare the monster to be evil let alone trying to smite him.

You are right; I misremembered that she intended to do it, but MitD went first. Should've checked. My bad. So we really don't know what would have happened had she actually got the chance to do it.


So... we're good to post here, now?
Yeah, we're good


Regarding the Athasian Nightmare Beast, it was originally published in 1992 in Monstrous Compendium 12: Terrors of the Desert, well before Strip 100 was published.
Ok, but that one doesn't fit, IIRC (given the dates, in this case because it is the 2e version that has since been updated to 3e, the question therefore being which stats would Rich have picked to use). The one in the FBS list is one that was posted a couple of months after strip #100 as a beta version of an upcoming splatbook for Dark Sun; a version I should add that never made it into said splatbook.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

You are right; I misremembered that she intended to do it, but MitD went first. Should've checked. My bad. So we really don't know what would have happened had she actually got the chance to do it.

GW

Did Windstalker get an attack, though?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did Windstalker get an attack, though?

The rules of the game explicitly call for MitD to go first, so I'm guessing not?

GW

[Kish]

I thought I posted this in the previous thread but apparently not, so:

Let the record state that I believe "used to be constantly hungry but now am not" is a genuine clue pointing to some kind of life cycle change.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought I posted this in the previous thread but apparently not, so:

Let the record state that I believe "used to be constantly hungry but now am not" is a genuine clue pointing to some kind of life cycle change.

If my silly guess (that he's a white slaad, hoping to be out of the shadows, and his character development causes him to become a black slaad made effectively of shadows) turns out to be correct, I'll never quite believe it.

Thankfully, I haven't seen anything about slaads losing their appetite when they're close to a form change.

GW

[Sigako]

Didn't MitD also eat a bunch of monsters while they were all fighting in the tunnels? In addition to all the food from bugbears it might be enough to sate him for now.
Or is he too civilized for that?

[Shining Wrath]

I think the "about to undergo some sort of metamorphosis" hypothesis is solid. But just for giggles & grins:

In the last few days MitD has crossed some sort of alignment threshold and is now neutral. If his urge to devour everything was driven by a dark god of some sort (e.g., a barghest), then no longer being evil may have diminished his drive to devour all things. And Xykon, who is perceptive if not educated, may have picked up that MitD no longer pings as "driven by evil to consume all living".

[IthilanorStPete]

Since a couple of people have brought up 1e/2e creatures - is there an explanation for why a creature from an older edition wouldn't have been caught in Dorukan's dungeon by the Talisman? I think I remember reading Word of Giant somewhere that the Talisman didn't account for every creature that didn't get updated, but I'm not sure.

[Kastor]

I can't help but interpret the text about not being super hungry to be a sign of growth- and understanding that MITD doesn't need physical food. That their hunger wasn't for physical sustenance, but something else they're getting now. They didn't get it before, so they overate to compensate. And why not? They're a child!

...not that I know which candidates this would point to, but its a thought!

Edit: Oh drat, this would almost certainly eliminate the classic "big eaters" from the running. Including my guess of old ANB!
Back to the guessing board.

[mezz-09]

I just spent an hour trying to remember my login (this is my second account having forgotten the Email address I used for my original account back in '05) to bring that up, since nobody had yet and then Kastor beats me too it. Ah well, not a contest.

But yeah, my immediate reaction to the "not hungry" thing was wondering if there was something supernatural going on with his hunger. The example that came to mind for me was nothing to do with D&D but they are now both part of hasbro so there is that... The changeling in My Little Pony are constantly hungry and feeding on "love" until they start becoming friendly and receiving love that is given freely and suddenly their hunger is sated. Perhaps something along those lines could be happening here, something emotional or magical is sating MitDs hunger such as the fact that now people that care about him are nearby (O'chul, possibly the bugbear beastmaster whose name I forget who has been treating him with what passes for compassion for a beast master to a beast)

I don't know how any of that might work in D&D or apply to creatures from it, which is why I came here hoping to find some discussion on the idea, but there has been none yet...

[Jervis]

To quote someone from the end of last thread.

Catching up:
I do like the suggestion that we ought to examine 2e monsters.
I think the idea that MitD must be a Fiend of any sort misses a few points - for starters, his personal growth, which Fiends typically don't do. By "growth" here I mean "evolving maturity of viewpoint and judgment, moving toward good alignment". Also that except for, e.g., Jubilex, the Fiends are usually not so hideous as to induce nausea.
Also, there's no record of Durin's Bane actually eating dwarves - just killing them because they were in the way.

The wizard had never seen anything like MitD. But Xykon, who is not an avid reader, thinks he's read something about MitD, and thinks he knows what MitD is. The "recognizability" of MitD's species has to lie somewhere in the middle. If it were really obscure, Xykon wouldn't know anything. If it were really common, the wizard would have seen something like it before.

I don’t think unupdated 2e monsters are the most likely. Remember all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story and we know MitD wasn’t there. That said it’s possible he was an exception but it’s worth mentioning.

I also want to revisit the whole wizard vs Xykon knowledge check thing. That was likely a low level wizard. Assuming Xykon has arcana maxed, which we know he does because Epic Spellcasting, that means MitD is likely a species identified by a Knowledge Arcana check. That narrows it down to Constructs -which don’t work for reasons already well discussed- dragons, and magical beasts. He’s likely just so high a DC that the wizard couldn’t pass it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I also want to revisit the whole wizard vs Xykon knowledge check thing. That was likely a low level wizard. Assuming Xykon has arcana maxed, which we know he does because Epic Spellcasting, that means MitD is likely a species identified by a Knowledge Arcana check. That narrows it down to Constructs -which don’t work for reasons already well discussed- dragons, and magical beasts. He’s likely just so high a DC that the wizard couldn’t pass it.

I am extremely hesitant to put any kind of trust in the whole "he needs to pass a check to know about x". It effectively means a peasant cannot possibly recognise an ancient dragon if they see one. And that's just not how knowledge works. As in, the rules say "[i]n general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."

So I understand that to mean that passing the check gives you some of the less immediately obvious details in the stat sheet. Not that you, with your 4 knowledge(whichever) skill points, cannot possibly know what the massive red flying lizard breathing fire all over your sheep is a dragon because the DC is 30+ but had it been a bit smaller, you would have a 25% chance of knowing because the wyrmling is DC 16.

(Also, "something something you cannot possibly spot the moon because it is too far" stolen from someone's signature)

Xykon maybe knows what MitD (or maybe he doesn't, and only cares that he is strong, ugly, and capable of sallowing unruly clerics), but if he does, it need not be because he passed some check. That he doesn't suspect him for the escape (whereas RC was conspicuously whisked away by the narrative) suggest he doesn't really know what MitD's species is capable of anymore than MitD himself, really.

Grey Wolf

[Jervis]

I am extremely hesitant to put any kind of trust in the whole "he needs to pass a check to know about x". It effectively means a peasant cannot possibly recognise an ancient dragon if they see one. And that's just not how knowledge works. As in, the rules say "[i]n general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."


Yes but there are a lot of dragons besides true dragons, and some of them can look pretty unintuitive. Besides that there’s magical beast in the same category of check. And while you don’t need to pass a check to know about something, it gives somewhere to look. It gives us the rare position of knowing for a fact that X character has max ranks in X knowledge knows what MitD is while a wizards of a much lower level doesn’t know anything

[littlebum2002]

To quote someone from the end of last thread.


I don’t think unupdated 2e monsters are the most likely. Remember all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story and we know MitD wasn’t there. That said it’s possible he was an exception but it’s worth mentioning.


That's a good point, but we know from Start of Darkness that the MitD IS an exception for a lot of things. It was odd for him to be in the jungle, it's odd for him to be able to speak, and it's odd for him to be so small. So him being an exception to a rule of "all 2e monsters are in Durokon's dungeon" would explain why the Big Game Hunters were surprised to see him in the jungle.

[Edreyn]

Hooray for the new thread!

Is it possible that MitD requires to eat something that is not generic food? And while earlier he wasn't getting enough of it, now he gets much more. Maybe he'll get even more of it in future strips.

So a question, what he gets now, which was missing earlier?

A specific emotion? Cold weather? Being close to someone or something?

Any ideas on a creature that eats something that isn't usual meat or plants?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes but there are a lot of dragons besides true dragons, and some of them can look pretty unintuitive.
Not relevant to my example, which used a straight-up standard red dragon. By the rules, 4 ranks will not allow you to recognize a dragon once it's HD is past 25. Therefore, I think restricting knowledge gain to getting the right roll at the right time is not, and cannot be, the only way to acquire knowledge of creatures. And because it cannot be, there is no way to know that Xykon ever used his ranks, or he just found MitD's species through other means.


That's a good point, but we know from Start of Darkness that the MitD IS an exception for a lot of things. It was odd for him to be in the jungle, it's odd for him to be able to speak, and it's odd for him to be so small. So him being an exception to a rule of "all 2e monsters are in Durokon's dungeon" would explain why the Big Game Hunters were surprised to see him in the jungle.

It would, but unlike the other exceptions you list, that's not one that we have been given. And the logic of "well, he's an exception to rule A, therefore we can assume he is also an exception to rule B" is honestly as weak as it comes.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

As a follow up to Ruck's Pros, Cons, and Themes mini essay, I would like to highlight this thought of his.

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is? This theme is nicely paralleled by the discussion Minrah and Belkar have about changing who you are, and not letting others tell you who you are (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html). She of course presents it in her own inimitable style, but the theme strikes the same chord (to me, anyway).

[Ruck]

As a follow up to Ruck's Pros, Cons, and Themes mini essay, I would like to highlight this thought of his.
This theme is nicely paralleled by the discussion Minrah and Belkar have about changing who you are, and not letting others tell you who you are (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html). She of course presents it in her own inimitable style, but the theme strikes the same chord (to me, anyway).

Thanks, and yeah, I like the parallel you've drawn here. (Or, that I guess Rich has drawn, but you've highlighted.)

The quote you posted is, I think, at the heart of where the answer lies. The clues are supposed to make it possible to guess what MitD is, but knowing that Rich has said "the reveal is a crucial part of the story," we have to remember that this is a story. And with that in mind, we have to consider why Rich would choose a particular species for MitD and what that would add to the story. Even though the Protean best fits the evidence of MitD's powers in my view, what really drives it home for me is that it's the only monster species in the FBS that I find has some thematic connection to MitD's arc.

[Niveus Candidus]

Going to summarize my "We should look at 2e monsters" suggestion.



We know that the MitD was solidified around strip #100, September 2, 2004 and that it is possible to guess, which we take to mean it was not invented just for this comic. Outside fiction aside, most of the theories have centered around 3.X monsters published before this date, though I always thought that should be extended all the way to the Monster Manual III, which not only would have been in development at the time but includes Rich Burlew as a member of the design team. But, seeing no clarity from what appears to be a clear hint made almost directly to the reader in strip 1260, I have to reconsider my MMIII thoughts. So, instead of arguing for extending the search a little further forward, maybe we need to go further backwards in time?

Spelljammer is once more a reality, with elves in space and giant hamsters. Maybe instead of focusing on the definable abilities of 3.X creatures, we should investigate 2E mobs, especially ones from the more niche settings.

Here I run into a problem--I started playing D&D in 3rd edition and spent most of my time in 3.5. I really only know about Ravenloft, Spelljammer and all the others through table stories and the occasional article on the web about the glory days of playing Dark Sun. 3.X lead me to discover Order of the Stick in the first place. I suspect that period's boom, after WOTC's new version grew Dungeons & Dragons back into popularity, not only allowed the comic's existence but also helped it be successful. If this is correct, the reason we haven't found the perfect MitD fit is because most OotS readers never sailed the cosmos with Mindflayers in living spaceships or have old 2E books laying around.

So, does anyone have access to an extensive treasure trove of beasts from the TSR days laying around that knows what monsters like to eat dwarves?

On the one hand being from 1/2e explains why goblins weren’t bothered when they saw him. There -1 charisma was the same as 24 charisma when dealing with evil creatures. But remember all the unupdated monsters were trapped in the tower from the beginning of the story. We know for a fact MitD wasn’t trapped there.


To quote someone from the end of last thread.


I don’t think unupdated 2e monsters are the most likely. Remember all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story and we know MitD wasn’t there. That said it’s possible he was an exception but it’s worth mentioning.

I also want to revisit the whole wizard vs Xykon knowledge check thing. That was likely a low level wizard. Assuming Xykon has arcana maxed, which we know he does because Epic Spellcasting, that means MitD is likely a species identified by a Knowledge Arcana check. That narrows it down to Constructs -which don’t work for reasons already well discussed- dragons, and magical beasts. He’s likely just so high a DC that the wizard couldn’t pass it.

RE: "On the one hand being from 1/2e explains why goblins weren’t bothered when they saw him. There -1 charisma was the same as 24 charisma when dealing with evil creatures."
An incredibly interesting point, especially because Rich has himself said he's strayed away from mechanical rules as the basis for the comic. The inverse of this is that when he chose the MiTD, he was deeply invested in the rules and backwards CHA rules may have been a hint we all missed for years.

RE: "all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story"
Can you point to the part of the story where this was spelled out? I remember the flumphs and such but do not remember the explanatory text. Even if it does say "This is where we locked up the 2e monsters that didn't make the 3.X cut," it actually lends credence to the Hunter scene. "Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world." It might have been too high CR to be locked away in the tower with a bunch of farting jellyfish or it was supposed to be, hence their surprise at finding one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Going to summarize my "We should look at 2e monsters" suggestion.
Absolutely no-one is stopping from looking at or proposing 2nd ed creatures.



RE: "all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story"
Can you point to the part of the story where this was spelled out?

Here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html). "Every monster in the pit was never updated". And the amulet works by targeting the will saving throw, which they do not have, thus if affects every single one of them, no exceptions.


I remember the flumphs and such but do not remember the explanatory text. Even if it does say "This is where we locked up the 2e monsters that didn't make the 3.X cut," it actually lends credence to the Hunter scene. "Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."

There is no reason to believe the SBGH would even know of the pit of 2nd ed monsters. But they do talk about others, so MitD isn't the only member of his species at large. So no, it does not "lend credence" to the hunter scene.


It might have been too high CR to be locked away in the tower with a bunch of farting jellyfish or it was supposed to be, hence their surprise at finding one.
I don't know if 2nd ed even had CR, but a dracolisk does not sound like a trivial encounter to me.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think Xykon would tolerate MitD following him around if he didn't know MitD was extremely powerful. MitD does annoy him from time to time, and Xykon's response to persistent annoyance usually involves Meteor Swarm.

So, Xykon knows something about MitD; I doubt very much he'd just take RedCloak's word for anything important.

How much he knows beyond "Creatures of this type can devour disloyal clerics" is hard to gauge. And presumably he knows MitD is an immature member of his species. About all this tells us is that MitD is a member of a species Xykon knows of, and that the base CR must be high enough that a "child" is still dangerous to RedCloak.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think Xykon would tolerate MitD following him around if he didn't know MitD was extremely powerful. MitD does annoy him from time to time, and Xykon's response to persistent annoyance usually involves Meteor Swarm.

So, Xykon knows something about MitD; I doubt very much he'd just take RedCloak's word for anything important.

How much he knows beyond "Creatures of this type can devour disloyal clerics" is hard to gauge. And presumably he knows MitD is an immature member of his species. About all this tells us is that MitD is a member of a species Xykon knows of, and that the base CR must be high enough that a "child" is still dangerous to RedCloak.

He also knows MitD is ludicrously strong, and I've argued in the past that is the crucial measure that makes him valuable to Xykon. Both Xykon and RC are primary casters; this is presumably well known by their enemies (by which I mean the unseen "other" teams they've had to dispatch in the past, such as "the time druids popped out of the potted plant"). Any team looking to prep for the fight will therefore be more easily surprised by an ace-in-the-hole that covers the one weakness in the visible team - lack of physical strength. So if someone teleports in and drops a null magic sphere (like mama dragon did to V), Xykon still has someone that can casually punch them through the nearest wall. Or the furthest, for that matter.

Beyond that fact, I doubt Xykon cares what he is*, because Xykon's philosophy is Power = Power, and in this case, power comes in the form of megaton punches.

Grey Wolf

*He'd also like him to be intimidating, but he lowered his expectations back at the start.

[Lord Torath]

In light of the most recent strip (Stew You (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html)), does anyone know any monsters that like the taste of dwarves? Bulettes like the taste of halflings (and so do athasian sloths - and the feeling is mutual), but I don't remember any that like dwarves.

As for the CitD saying "I don't... think so", as far as I can recall, he still doesn't know what he himself is, so he wouldn't know whether or not his species generally loves the taste of dwarves. Just that he personally has no interest in eating one.

[Sonofsol]

Howdy, longtime lurker chiming in: have we considered the bugbear cuisine to be the important clue here? Maybe it wasn’t just a throwaway when Greyview said in 1041: “[we] have bitter fruit of eternal despair.” It strikes me that with as little as we’ve heard about bugbear cuisine (no Hydraburger: North Branch, no gouda running gag) that this may be a hint. Is there a foodstuff that could be described as despairing? I suppose this could also feed (ha!) into the emotional-emotions-eating bit being bandied about.

I’d also like to add that I read Xykon’s comment as only narrowing down MITD’s favored habitat. The Big Game Hunters say he’s not a jungle creature, Xykon skims MITD’s Monster Manual entry to read, “underground,” and thinks, “Oh, bet he snacks on dwarves.” X knows enough to try feeding him children. Oona, presumably more knowledgeable, also seems to think humanoids are a foodstuff for MITD. What do y’all think?

[Algeh]

Howdy, longtime lurker chiming in: have we considered the bugbear cuisine to be the important clue here? Maybe it wasn’t just a throwaway when Greyview said in 1041: “[we] have bitter fruit of eternal despair.” It strikes me that with as little as we’ve heard about bugbear cuisine (no Hydraburger: North Branch, no gouda running gag) that this may be a hint. Is there a foodstuff that could be described as despairing? I suppose this could also feed (ha!) into the emotional-emotions-eating bit being bandied about.

I’d also like to add that I read Xykon’s comment as only narrowing down MITD’s favored habitat. The Big Game Hunters say he’s not a jungle creature, Xykon skims MITD’s Monster Manual entry to read, “underground,” and thinks, “Oh, bet he snacks on dwarves.” X knows enough to try feeding him children. Oona, presumably more knowledgeable, also seems to think humanoids are a foodstuff for MITD. What do y’all think?

I'm not convinced by this idea, but to run with it anyway and see where that takes me, what if the MITD's species had a typical habitat of arctic/tundra rather than underground, so he's less hungry because he's finally not having to expend as much energy on temperature regulation or is getting some typical local nutrient that was harder to come by? I suppose that would be another way to read that, and would also mesh with the idea that maybe Xykon thought he'd eat dwarves because they're also northern in this setting.

My personal reading is that the hunger thing is either telegraphing the end of a (child/larval) life stage or telegraphing something about character development rather than being anything to do with bugbear cuisine, but if I wanted to make that argument that's probably how I'd go about it.

[Crusher]

Oops, darn it. Wasn't paying attention. Well, here we are.

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses


DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day)
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Haunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) - 6/18/20
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB - 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Eric the White - Barghast (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022

I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, which I will update infrequently. If you have 1 guess, it gets 1 point. 2 ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and 3 ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. 2 non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and 3 non-ordered guesses will go 0.33/0.33/0.33. If you guess more than 3, I'll discard 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a slightly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it.

Last updated 10/21/21

Once again, roughly 15 months have passed since the last scoring update, and there have been minor alterations as most of the new entries were people changing their prior guesses. As usual, the net result has been the Protean modestly extending its commanding lead and everything else mostly staying still.

BUT, there is a new entrant to the list! The Xenocrysth was proposed (and quickly added to the FBS list) shortly after the last tally and has now arrived. If the Protean is the dominant leader and the ANB and Slaad are the closest (if still distant) primary challengers, then the Xenocrysth has emerged as a strong contender within the pack after them. The Uvuudaum remains at the lead of the secondary pack but the Xenocrysth is right at its heels just ahead of the Glabrezu.

The "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates remain in the same places and with the same scores as before. If you took all of the votes for various sorts of Dragons and Deities, and scored them both as single candidates, Dragon (which includes all types of Linnorm guesses) would come in a very solid 4th (between Slaad and Uvuudaum) and Deity would be tied with Glabrezu at 6th (or, well, 7th if we include "Dragon").

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 35.5
#2 - ANB - 12.5
#3 - Slaad - 8.5
#X - "Dragon" - 6.0
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Xenocrysth - 3.7
#6 - Glabrezu - 3.0
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#7 - Zodar - 2.8

[Jervis]

I don't think Xykon would tolerate MitD following him around if he didn't know MitD was extremely powerful. MitD does annoy him from time to time, and Xykon's response to persistent annoyance usually involves Meteor Swarm.

So, Xykon knows something about MitD; I doubt very much he'd just take RedCloak's word for anything important.

How much he knows beyond "Creatures of this type can devour disloyal clerics" is hard to gauge. And presumably he knows MitD is an immature member of his species. About all this tells us is that MitD is a member of a species Xykon knows of, and that the base CR must be high enough that a "child" is still dangerous to RedCloak.

What was the mind control spell Xykon used on MitD again? There might be a 2e monster that has immunity to mind control via items but not spells or immunity to mind control below a certain CL. That sounds exactly like the sort of jank 2e monsters would have.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

List of guesses

Oh, that reminds me, please switch me over to Protean > Slaad > Zodar. I might as well own the damn silly guess.

GW

[IthilanorStPete]

Crusher - put me down for Protean, if you could.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks, and yeah, I like the parallel you've drawn here. (Or, that I guess Rich has drawn, but you've highlighted.)
I am not a 3.x expert, unlike a lot of folks who post in OoTS threads. I am a Pre 3.x player, and a 5e player, so I can't draw on any 'feel' for what seems right. I appreciate the effort you took to put together that post, the original and any subsequent variations on that theme.

Thanks, Ruck, for the gift of your time and eloquence. :smallsmile:

[Kastor]

After taking in the new information, I've come to a conclusion-
MiTD must be:

Jason Asano (From He Who Fights With Monsters)

Pros:
-Is capable of teleporting himself and others!
-Is super strong thanks to magic, definitely strong enough to punch someone through a wall or crack weak earth.
-Affinity for darkness!
-Can easily avoid attacks that seemingly hit!
-His chin is so large it could easily make anyone nauseous!
-Unrecognizable because he's from a different universe!
-Loves to eat, even though he technically doesn't have to!
-Susceptible to mind effects, though resistant.

Cons:
-was published over sixteen years after MiTD's identity was solidified
-not actually a monster
-doubtful many people will get this gag


I'm certain this ironclad argument will win everyone over to my perspective :smallbiggrin:

[Niveus Candidus]

Absolutely no-one is stopping from looking at or proposing 2nd ed creatures.
Correct--I am asking for help from players with more extensive 2e monster knowledge than I and encouraging those whom do have this information to look into it--Especially on the dwarf eating / delicacy point.


Here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html). "Every monster in the pit was never updated". And the amulet works by targeting the will saving throw, which they do not have, thus if affects every single one of them, no exceptions.
Every monster in the pit was never updated does not mean every monster never updated is in the pit. Is a range specified? Is there a limit to how many it affects? Is part of the MiTD's uniqueness that it is immune to such abilities? Could it not reach the pit? Was it on the way, hence why it was in the wrong environment? Considering how many exceptions we know about, I think saying "No exceptions is a bit premature."


There is no reason to believe the SBGH would even know of the pit of 2nd ed monsters. But they do talk about others, so MitD isn't the only member of his species at large. So no, it does not "lend credence" to the hunter scene.
The OotS knew quite a few 2e monsters by sight. Why would the Hunters not?


I don't know if 2nd ed even had CR, but a dracolisk does not sound like a trivial encounter to me.

GW
A good point! Since we had a specific reference, I was able to look it up. Dracolisks have an XP value of 3000 and hit dice of 7+3. After some Googling to figure out what that even means, I never figured out what that means! What I can say it is far, far from the highest XP award in the 2e MM. It's in line with the weakest Yugoloth and below a Xorn. It's equal to a Wraith but above a Wyvern. Again, I don't even know if XP is a good measure for monster difficulty in AD&D, so take this for what it is--Nonsense. As I said earlier, anyone whom knows 2e more, please advise further if I am on even a close track.

While I was checking online sources for 2e, I cross referenced "Dwarves," "Dwarf" and "Dwar" in monster write ups. Bulettes came up, of course, as did Deepsawn, Ogres (With specific notation on enjoying the flesh of elf, dwarf and halflings), Peytons, Ropers and a few others.

Also while browsing monsters for an edition I don't know, I stumbled upon some interesting text when cross referencing the word "delicacy":

Sapphire Dragon
Pros: Dwarvian Delicacy misplacement
Sapphire dragons consider giant spiders a great delicacy and often hunt them. Deep dragons,
drow, dwarves, mind flayers, and aboleth are great enemies of sapphire dragons.]
The words "Delicacy" and "Dwarf" in the same text, misread by Xykon.

Unexpected it can speak
Sapphire dragons speak their own tongue and the tongue common to all gem dragons, and 16% of hatchling sapphire dragons have an ability to communicate with any intelligent creature. The chance to possess this ability increases 5% per age category of the dragon.]

Shout
Breath weapon/special abilities: This dragon's breath weapon is cone of high-pitched, almost inaudible sound, 75 feet long, 5 feet wide at the dragon's mouth, and 25 feet wide at the base. Creatures caught by the blast can save vs. breath weapon for half damage from the sound's disruption, and must make a second saving throw vs. breath weapon or be affected by fear, fleeing the dragon in panic for two rounds per age level of the dragon, plus 1d6 rounds. This is a metabolic effect, and creatures unaffected by
magical fear still suffer from the effects if they fail their save. Deafness does not protect one from the
breath weapon's damage, though it prevents fear effects. A sapphire dragon casts spells and uses magical
abilities at 7th level, plus combat modifier.

Environment
Climate/Terrain: Any subterranean

Incorrect Size


Knowledge
Intelligence: Genius (17-18)

O'Chul's Escape (Really well) and an appearance of the oft-debated Psionics

Combat: Sapphire dragons generally observe intruders before deciding what to do with them, unless known enemies such as drow or dwarves are present. If others are not actively hostile the dragon attempts conversation and spell use to determine their intentions and convince them to leave. If the dragon or its treasure is threatened, it attacks immediately with breath weapon, spells, and physical attacks. It uses psionics or other special abilities to escape if its life is in jeopardy

Psionics Summary:
Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
= HD 2/2/4 PB,EW/M-,IF = Int 200
Common powers (most sapphire dragons use psychoportive powers):
Clairsentience - Sciences: clairaudience, clairvoyance. Devotions: know direction, radial navigation.
Psychokinesis - Sciences: disintegrate, molecular rearrangement, telekinesis. Devotions: animate
shadow, control light, molecular manipulation, soften.
Psychoportation - Sciences: any. Devotions: any.

Strangely beautiful
These beautiful dragons range from light to dark blue, and sparkle in the light, even at birth.

Knowledge of MitD
Sapphire dragons are often mistaken for blue dragons, unless someone recalls the latter's preferred arid environment.

Family
Sapphire dragons treat their young well, but force them to leave and find their own territory as soon as they are young adults.

Little Tidbits

No Undead Raising Abilities noted
Neutral, Not Evil or Good
Advances and gains abilities as they age
Dragon anatomy matches the "Drawing Clues" discernible shape notations, four limbs but able to stand upright, has a neck, two eyes and a mouth
Not immune to charm or suggestion


Cons:
The largest one, despite matching quite a number of scenes and the remainder (Such as its huge strength, great defenses) easily being possible by the fact its 2e entry didn't have a state block, a misidentified dragon is still obviously a dragon.





Yellow Dragon
Pros:
Dwarvian Delicacy misplacement
Ecology: Although able to eat anything, yellows favor fresh meat. (Demi)humans are considered a delicacy, as are the unhatched eggs of brass dragons. (Yellows rarely get to enjoy this latter feast.)
Here Xykon would be correct, Demihumans should be near the top of the MitD's menu.
[B]Unexpected it can speak
Yellow dragons speak their own tongue, which is quite different than that spoken by other evil dragons. Yellows have no interest in speaking with other races, and so they learn no other languages.

Shout
A yellow dragon's breath weapon is a high-velocity blast of scorching air mixed with sand. This affects an area 50 feet long, 40 feet wide, and 20 feet high. Creatures caught within this blast must roll successful saving throws vs. breath weapon for half damage. Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they
must make another saving throw vs. breath weapon. Failure means that the abrasive sand in the breath blast has damaged their eyes, blinding them for 1d4+1 rounds.

Environment
Climate/Terrain: Desert

Incorrect Size
Size: G (36' base)

O'Chul's Escape, Rain, Reading Scrolls, Wishes don't come true
A yellow dragon casts spells and uses magical abilities at 8th level, plus its combat modifier.
Spells up to 8th level cover a lot of individual moments.

Little Tidbits

No Undead Raising Abilities noted
Evil
Advances and gains abilities as they age
Dragon anatomy matches the "Drawing Clues" discernible shape notations, four limbs but able to stand upright, has a neck, two eyes and a mouth
Not immune to charm or suggestion


Cons:
Did we mention it's a dragon? Even a dragon Although the existence of yellow dragons has long been predicted by sages (based on theories of primary colors), the first specimen was spotted only five or so years ago. is still a dragon.

Well that was fun! I'll see if I can find a Monsters of the Faerun or whatever Spelljammer had.

[Ruck]

I am not a 3.x expert, unlike a lot of folks who post in OoTS threads. I am a Pre 3.x player, and a 5e player, so I can't draw on any 'feel' for what seems right. I appreciate the effort you took to put together that post, the original and any subsequent variations on that theme.

Thanks, Ruck, for the gift of your time and eloquence. :smallsmile:

You're welcome. I should add that I'm not any kind of D&D expert - everything in my analysis of the mechanics was built on the years of work people had done before.

What I am good at are solving puzzles and the craft and structure of storytelling. The latter is a big reason I'm a big fan of this work, because Rich's understanding of those things is very strong as well. Knowing that he is a good storyteller and not a bad storyteller, I am confident he considered the story aspect when deciding what he wanted MitD to be.

In short, when both my conclusion from studying the evidence of the mechanics and my conclusion as to what would make the best story align, I go with that answer.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Every monster in the pit was never updated does not mean every monster never updated is in the pit.
"To bring all outdated monsters under the wearer's control" (emphasis mine)


Is a range specified?
MitD is living about a handful of floors down. Range is larger than that.


Is there a limit to how many it affects?
No. All


Is part of the MiTD's uniqueness that it is immune to such abilities?
No, unless you have a candidate that says otherwise, Although I can't imagine there are a lot of 2nd ed creatures with immunity to artefacts from future editions.


Could it not reach the pit?
Again: MitD is living about a handful of floors down


Was it on the way, hence why it was in the wrong environment?
No. We never see him once trying to reach it. And given MitD wouldn't be held by any cage he has been in by anything other than his manners, had he been mind-controlled to come to the pit, he would have.


Considering how many exceptions we know about, I think saying "No exceptions is a bit premature."
We know of no exceptions, and it's been more than a decade since that particular storyline concluded. There is nothing premature about basing our assumptions on what lore we already have. If, like Hilgya's return, Rich happens to revisit this particular piece of the canon, unlikely as that might be, then on the basis of the new details I'll happily revise my facts, but until then, I see no reason to do so, and thus any 2nd ed creature proposed will have as a con "it should have been in the pit".


The OotS knew quite a few 2e monsters by sight. Why would the Hunters not?
That is not what I said. I said there is no reason for them to know about the pit, and therefore there is nothing surprising to them about seeing a creature that should be in a pit they don't know about outside of said pit.

GW

[Jervis]

Howdy, longtime lurker chiming in: have we considered the bugbear cuisine to be the important clue here? Maybe it wasn’t just a throwaway when Greyview said in 1041: “[we] have bitter fruit of eternal despair.” It strikes me that with as little as we’ve heard about bugbear cuisine (no Hydraburger: North Branch, no gouda running gag) that this may be a hint. Is there a foodstuff that could be described as despairing? I suppose this could also feed (ha!) into the emotional-emotions-eating bit being bandied about.

I’d also like to add that I read Xykon’s comment as only narrowing down MITD’s favored habitat. The Big Game Hunters say he’s not a jungle creature, Xykon skims MITD’s Monster Manual entry to read, “underground,” and thinks, “Oh, bet he snacks on dwarves.” X knows enough to try feeding him children. Oona, presumably more knowledgeable, also seems to think humanoids are a foodstuff for MITD. What do y’all think?

There is a fruit in 3.5 that turns you into a tree if you fail a fort/will save that has some fluff about that, it also lets casters restore spell slots if they are at it and pass. But the DC is something stupid and I doubt that’s it.

[Niveus Candidus]

"To bring all outdated monsters under the wearer's control" (emphasis mine)
No, emphasis Nale; about the most unreliable narrator possible.


MitD is living about a handful of floors down. Range is larger than that.
If it is even working. The range might exclude the interior of the dungeon. The MiTD may be considered an "Employee" by the dungeon's rules. Or, most likely, the talisman may require a wielder to operate. It didn't seem to be doing anything floating in spot when I reread the pre-strip 100 arc. Dorukan was too busy with his Druid liaisons to sit around, daily channeling one of his many magical devices to pick up every 2e monster ever to set foot on stick world.


No. All
Again, basing your assumptions on the exposition of Nale during one of his half-cooked schemes? Nale also said the runes were what was keeping the obsolete baddies in check, not the talisman. Which Nale-note should I take more seriously?


No, unless you have a candidate that says otherwise, Although I can't imagine there are a lot of 2nd ed creatures with immunity to artefacts from future editions.
It does not need to be immune. See below. Also, the OotS wiki lists it as a Magic Item, not an artefact. Not a 100% source but the comic says it is a "Relic," not an artefact.


Again: MitD is living about a handful of floors down
Again, this assumes the talisman works when not being wielded.


No. We never see him once trying to reach it. And given MitD wouldn't be held by any cage he has been in by anything other than his manners, had he been mind-controlled to come to the pit, he would have.
It was found in the wrong environment and could have been en route to the talisman when the hunters found it. The MitD's manners being one of its defining traits, all that was necessary for the MiTD to cease its march forward was the call of the talisman stopping because Dorukan was done using it.


We know of no exceptions, and it's been more than a decade since that particular storyline concluded. There is nothing premature about basing our assumptions on what lore we already have. If, like Hilgya's return, Rich happens to revisit this particular piece of the canon, unlikely as that might be, then on the basis of the new details I'll happily revise my facts, but until then, I see no reason to do so, and thus any 2nd ed creature proposed will have as a con "it should have been in the pit".
It could have been in the pit. Or maybe it's too strong. Or perhaps it never made it. Or a dozen other reasons.


That is not what I said. I said there is no reason for them to know about the pit, and therefore there is nothing surprising to them about seeing a creature that should be in a pit they don't know about outside of said pit.

GW
The hunters do not need to know about the Pit. They only need to know that no one has seen a 2e monster for a long time.

[3Power]

I'm going to say a few things in regards to the newest comic.

First, in regards to the "dwarf delicacy" thing, you can basically take it three ways.
1. Xykon is correct, and somewhere it's mentioned that the Mitd's species likes to eat dwarves.
2. Xykon is misremembering, as he tends to do, and it's not a hint at all.
And finally, what my mind immediately jumped to:
3. They are both right, and there is conflicting information. I.e. One source (Xykon's) makes mention of it, and another (Mitd's) completely omits it.
(I should also mention that there's a sub-issue here, namely "did what Xykon maybe read actually say DWARVES specifically or just humanoids in general?" For example, if an entry says "Blorgforgs usually eat forest animals but will eat humanoids if they can get them" then Dwarves could be included as a delicacy under humanoids.)

Now what comes to mind immediately for option 3 is edition differences, which makes it beneficial that we're already discussing that. I can easily imagine one edition stating something about a creature's dietary habits, only for other editions to not mention it at all. This does not have to be an older edition in this case, necessarily, as if some 5e splatbook suddenly decided that kenkus could only talk in quotations, that would be a similar situation ripe for parody.

In any case, the following monstrous manual (2e) entries make mention of liking dwarf meat.

Specifically likes dwarf meat:
Skrag (Aquatic troll) (Devours anything they catch but prefer humanoids and have a fondness for Dwarves)

Specifically dislikes dwarf meat:
Bulette (also mentioned as always hungry)

Dwarves specifically mentioned amongst other humanoids:
Chimera (Enjoys preying upon Dwarves, humans, elves, and halflings)
Ogre (Fondness for Dwarf, Elf and Halfling flesh)
Roper (eats any meat but prefers Humans and Demihumans, Dwarves and Gnomes are common prey)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat demihumans or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Red Dragons (Maidens only, humans ok too)
Yellow Dragons ("Demihumans are delicacies", along with brass dragon eggs)
Giant Frogs
Gith (humans and demihumans are a "choice food supplement")(Not sure if these guys are related to the githyanki or not)
Hag (Prefer humans but will eat orcs or demihumans)
Harpy
Koalinth (Aquatic Hobgoblin)
Werebat (Hungry during metamorphosis... from baby bat to full batman)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat humanoids or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Blood Hawk
Jermlaine Gremlin ( Foot tall humanoid, Humanoid meat is a delicacy)
Ixitxachitl (Carnivorous Manta Ray)
Jacklwere (Were-Jackal)
leucrotta (Carnivorous horse-like creature with a panther-like face. "Legendary Ugliness")
Lycanthrope, Seawolf (Man-wolf-seal, eats lots of normal stuff plus "anyone they can sink their teeth into.")
Mist, Crimson Death (Drinks bodily fluids, "prefers humanoids"
peryton (Deer head bird)
Remorhaz (Bug worm)
Trolls
Killer Whale

Won't eat humanoids:
Hippogriff

Other:
Skriaxit (eats fear)
Orcs (Prefer non-humanoid meat)
Yellow Musk Creeper (Plant, turns humanoids into zombies)
Dragonne (Only attacks humanoids if no other food)
Aboleth (likes to eat intelligent creatures)
Argos (Ravenous creature driven by its hunger, eats anything that moves)

The above list may be incomplete. You can help by expanding it.

Oh, and as a side note, most naga don't have diets listed but the dark naga are specifically said to eat just about anything other than their own species, plant or animal, living or dead, but they especially like fresh blood.

Now, the other thing I wanted to bring up about this comic, is the idea that the MitD has finally gotten enough food to trigger a transformation, likely a size-change, an idea that others had hit upon as well.

Well, while going through the monstrous manual I found an interesting entry on something called a deepspawn. A deepspawn is a gibbering mouther/protean type of aberration creature. It will eat anything organic, and then can grow and give birth to any material plane creature. It then says it gets all the abilities of it's "creator" which I assumed was the deepspawn, but after looking up the 3e version I'm not so sure. The 3e version just says it creates spawn that copy the creature that was eaten and mentions nothing about giving those new spawn abilities like the parent.

Anyway, for a moment there I thought we had a creature that eats other creatures, spawns out psuedonatural versions of those creatures with both creatures' abilities, and then continued the cycle, but I think the description just wasn't clear, or maybe the creature works the opposite way for both editions.

[Niveus Candidus]

I'm going to say a few things in regards to the newest comic.

First, in regards to the "dwarf delicacy" thing, you can basically take it three ways.
1. Xykon is correct, and somewhere it's mentioned that the Mitd's species likes to eat dwarves.
2. Xykon is misremembering, as he tends to do, and it's not a hint at all.
And finally, what my mind immediately jumped to:
3. They are both right, and there is conflicting information. I.e. One source (Xykon's) makes mention of it, and another (Mitd's) completely omits it.
(I should also mention that there's a sub-issue here, namely "did what Xykon maybe read actually say DWARVES specifically or just humanoids in general?" For example, if an entry says "Blorgforgs usually eat forest animals but will eat humanoids if they can get them" then Dwarves could be included as a delicacy under humanoids.)

Now what comes to mind immediately for option 3 is edition differences, which makes it beneficial that we're already discussing that. I can easily imagine one edition stating something about a creature's dietary habits, only for other editions to not mention it at all. This does not have to be an older edition in this case, necessarily, as if some 5e splatbook suddenly decided that kenkus could only talk in quotations, that would be a similar situation ripe for parody.

In any case, the following monstrous manual (2e) entries make mention of liking dwarf meat.

Specifically likes dwarf meat:
Skrag (Aquatic troll) (Devours anything they catch but prefer humanoids and have a fondness for Dwarves)

Specifically dislikes dwarf meat:
Bulette (also mentioned as always hungry)

Dwarves specifically mentioned amongst other humanoids:
Chimera (Enjoys preying upon Dwarves, humans, elves, and halflings)
Ogre (Fondness for Dwarf, Elf and Halfling flesh)
Roper (eats any meat but prefers Humans and Demihumans, Dwarves and Gnomes are common prey)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat demihumans or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Red Dragons (Maidens only, humans ok too)
Yellow Dragons ("Demihumans are delicacies", along with brass dragon eggs)
Giant Frogs
Gith (humans and demihumans are a "choice food supplement")(Not sure if these guys are related to the githyanki or not)
Hag (Prefer humans but will eat orcs or demihumans)
Harpy
Koalinth (Aquatic Hobgoblin)
Werebat (Hungry during metamorphosis... from baby bat to full batman)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat humanoids or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Blood Hawk
Jermlaine Gremlin ( Foot tall humanoid, Humanoid meat is a delicacy)
Ixitxachitl (Carnivorous Manta Ray)
Jacklwere (Were-Jackal)
leucrotta (Carnivorous horse-like creature with a panther-like face. "Legendary Ugliness")
Lycanthrope, Seawolf (Man-wolf-seal, eats lots of normal stuff plus "anyone they can sink their teeth into.")
Mist, Crimson Death (Drinks bodily fluids, "prefers humanoids"
peryton (Deer head bird)
Remorhaz (Bug worm)
Trolls
Killer Whale

Won't eat humanoids:
Hippogriff

Other:
Skriaxit (eats fear)
Orcs (Prefer non-humanoid meat)
Yellow Musk Creeper (Plant, turns humanoids into zombies)
Dragonne (Only attacks humanoids if no other food)
Aboleth (likes to eat intelligent creatures)
Argos (Ravenous creature driven by its hunger, eats anything that moves)

The above list may be incomplete. You can help by expanding it.

Oh, and as a side note, most naga don't have diets listed but the dark naga are specifically said to eat just about anything other than their own species, plant or animal, living or dead, but they especially like fresh blood.

Now, the other thing I wanted to bring up about this comic, is the idea that the MitD has finally gotten enough food to trigger a transformation, likely a size-change, an idea that others had hit upon as well.

Well, while going through the monstrous manual I found an interesting entry on something called a deepspawn. A deepspawn is a gibbering mouther/protean type of aberration creature. It will eat anything organic, and then can grow and give birth to any material plane creature. It then says it gets all the abilities of it's "creator" which I assumed was the deepspawn, but after looking up the 3e version I'm not so sure. The 3e version just says it creates spawn that copy the creature that was eaten and mentions nothing about giving those new spawn abilities like the parent.

Anyway, for a moment there I thought we had a creature that eats other creatures, spawns out psuedonatural versions of those creatures with both creatures' abilities, and then continued the cycle, but I think the description just wasn't clear, or maybe the creature works the opposite way for both editions.
Thank you for the deep delve! I saw the Deepspawn but they don't fit the physical descriptions.

Now I am trying to look for Faerun, Spelljammer, Dark Sun and other settings for Monster listings. So far, the only monsters I see that can perform the MiTD feats are the two I saw, which both have issues by being readily recognizable as Dragons. If you have any idea where I could research these I would appreciate it.

Honestly, I do not know why we haven't looked at older editions more extensively, previously. GW's idea that every monster ever was trapped in the first Dungeon notwithstanding, the MiTD has eluded every researched 3.X monster for years and the closest we've come is a Hagunemnon (Protean), which is a bit of a punt of a guess--It's every monster, requires insane levels of convenience every step of the way, doesn't fit the physical characteristics at all and the few dribs and drabs we've had along the way aren't lining up.

Older editions would also explain how the MiTD was chosen before strip #100. Instead of there being only the 3 years of 3.0 (Release 2000) and the 1 year between 3.5 (Release 2003) and Strip #100, there would be literal decades of the monster's published existence. And as I said originally, OotS's start was with the 3.X crowd. It's no wonder some of the most knowledgeable players of that era look at the hints and guess not one monster but a monster designed to be every monster.

[Ortho]

Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.)

MitD's first three appearances are in strips 23, 37, and 82. Dorukan's amulet is introduced in strip 46 and destroyed in strip 59. If MitD really is a creature from a previous edition, we have an out-of-universe reason as for why he wasn't in the pit - it wasn't decided what he was until well after the amulet was destroyed!


If we need an in-universe reason, there's another way to interpret the properties of the amulet: the amulet has two powers, not just one. The first ability, if Nale in panel 5 is to be believed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), is that the amulet has the ability to passively lure creatures from past editions. The second ability, if Nale in panel 6 is to be believed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), is that the amulet grants its wearer the ability to directly control creatures from past editions. (Also note that the range of the amulet's command isn't infinite - Nale has to yell his orders out loud (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html)).

[Jervis]

MitD's first three appearances are in strips 23, 37, and 82. Dorukan's amulet is introduced in strip 46 and destroyed in strip 59. If MitD really is a creature from a previous edition, we have an out-of-universe reason as for why he wasn't in the pit - it wasn't decided what he was until well after the amulet was destroyed!


If we need an in-universe reason, there's another way to interpret the properties of the amulet: the amulet has two powers, not just one. The first ability, if Nale in panel 5 is to be believed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), is that the amulet has the ability to passively lure creatures from past editions. The second ability, if Nale in panel 6 is to be believed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), is that the amulet grants its wearer the ability to directly control creatures from past editions. (Also note that the range of the amulet's command isn't infinite - Nale has to yell his orders out loud (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html)).

That is true. It might be a passive lure but not a guaranteed effect. It might just bring in creatures within X range. For all we know it might even have a HD limit but that takes some twisting logic to make things up.

[Ruck]

Honestly, I do not know why we haven't looked at older editions more extensively, previously. GW's idea that every monster ever was trapped in the first Dungeon notwithstanding, the MiTD has eluded every researched 3.X monster for years and the closest we've come is a Hagunemnon (Protean), which is a bit of a punt of a guess--It's every monster, requires insane levels of convenience every step of the way, doesn't fit the physical characteristics at all and the few dribs and drabs we've had along the way aren't lining up.

The bolded has been brought up repeatedly and is simply not true.

Anything else I have to say about the Protean, I've already said and can be read at your leisure at the top of this thread, including the criticisms you've made.

Feel free to look through older monsters, certainly. Indeed, I encourage it because I want to try to get to the real answer here. I'm always interested if someone thinks they've found a better fit. That kind of research isn't my field, though.

[LadyEowyn]

I don’t think the MITD’s recent lack of insatiable hunger is due to a change in stew ingredients. My guess would be it’s either related to aging (the monster is no longer a child) or, somehow, to an alignment change (the monster is demonstrating real principles and thought recently, not just affection for O-Chul specifically), or to his connection with O-Chul (could there be something that causes him to need less food when O-Chul is nearby?).

There’s also an outside chance of it being related to climate (if he’s a polar being, he might need less food there than he needs to cope with adverse environments?), though it seems like that should be something Xykon would know.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, emphasis Nale; about the most unreliable narrator possible.
He is the only narrator we have, and his words match what we observe. Present better canon, or work with the one you have. "I am going to outright discard the canon because it disagrees with my idea" is precisely the reason I have the Giant's quote in my signature.


Hagunemnon (Protean), which is a bit of a punt of a guess--It's every monster, requires insane levels of convenience every step of the way, doesn't fit the physical characteristics at all and the few dribs and drabs we've had along the way aren't lining up.
No it isn't and no it doesn't, fits physically excellently, and if this is the kind of argumentation I should expect from you, I think I will call it quits now.


MitD's first three appearances are in strips 23, 37, and 82. Dorukan's amulet is introduced in strip 46 and destroyed in strip 59. If MitD really is a creature from a previous edition, we have an out-of-universe reason as for why he wasn't in the pit - it wasn't decided what he was until well after the amulet was destroyed!

To quote Rich:

Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.



I don’t think the MITD’s recent lack of insatiable hunger is due to a change in stew ingredients. My guess would be it’s either related to aging (the monster is no longer a child) or, somehow, to an alignment change (the monster is demonstrating real principles and thought recently, not just affection for O-Chul specifically), or to his connection with O-Chul (could there be something that causes him to need less food when O-Chul is nearby?).

There’s also an outside chance of it being related to climate (if he’s a polar being, he might need less food there than he needs to cope with adverse environments?), though it seems like that should be something Xykon would know.

Oi. Good summation of the possibilities right there. Which means we are back on the "why doesn't he leave prints on the snow" scenario where we end up with a half-dozen of plausible possibilities, and thus little to go on with.

Grey Wolf

[Mad Humanist]

BUT, there is a new entrant to the list! The Xenocryst was proposed (and quickly added to the FBS list) shortly after the last tally and has now arrived. If the Protean is the dominant leader and the ANB and Slaad are the closest (if still distant) primary challengers, then the Xenocryst has emerged as a strong contender within the pack after them. The Uvuudaum remains at the lead of the secondary pack but the Xenocryst is right at its heels just ahead of the Glabrezu.


I only poke my nose in here occasionally so I guess the answer could be "mind your own business" though I would feel that was at odds with the purpose of the thread. However I don't know what is meant by"Xenocryst" here. Googling only yields something presumably irrelevant, unless it is a joke answer and I am too boring to get the in-joke. There is no entry in the list of proposed solutions.

I have not heard of a Zodar either but that is much easier to track down. I mean it has an entry in the list of solutions.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I only poke my nose in here occasionally so I guess the answer could be "mind your own business" though I would feel that was at odds with the purpose of the thread. However I don't know what is meant by"Xenocryst" here. Googling only yields something presumably irrelevant, unless it is a joke answer and I am too boring to get the in-joke. There is no entry in the list of proposed solutions.

I have not heard of a Zodar either but that is much easier to track down. I mean it has an entry in the list of solutions.

I believe you may have been tripped up by the slight typo in Crusher list, but the Xenocrysth is in section 3a.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Mad Humanist]

I believe you may have been tripped up by the slight typo in Crusher list, but the Xenocrysth is in section 3a.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

Thanks. I was looking in section 3e apparently.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanks. I was looking in section 3e apparently.

You are welcome. Admittedly, it is not the most recognizable of creatures, but google will give you answers - just search for Xenocrysth d&d, if you don't want to be offered some rock type instead of the creature.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Crusher - put me down for Protean, if you could.

Certainly.


Oh, that reminds me, please switch me over to Protean > Slaad > Zodar. I might as well own the damn silly guess.

GW

Will do.

Also, Jervis, do you want to switch your guess to Linnorm? You kinda suggested a few times that you wanted to, but never quite actually said it.

Finally, thanks for noting the Xenoc... something, typo. I'll fix that.

[Jervis]

Certainly.



Will do.

Also, Jervis, do you want to switch your guess to Linnorm? You kinda suggested a few times that you wanted to, but never quite actually said it.

Finally, thanks for noting the Xenoc... something, typo. I'll fix that.

Yeah i've been thinking about it and the more i think the more i'm on the Linnorm boat until i find a better option.

[Jasdoif]

Which means we are back on the "why doesn't he leave prints on the snow" scenario where we end up with a half-dozen of plausible possibilities, and thus little to go on with.This is one of the few advantages of the Amethyst Dragon: its body equilibrium ability would allow it to walk on snow without leaving tracks (I mean, the examples given are walking on water/quicksand/spider-webs without breaking through); and as an added bonus, the ability is fully described in the book in case psionics aren't fully in play (and you're told to reference the psionic power of the same name (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyEquilibrium.htm) if they are), softening "why didn't Redcloak already know they were using psionics in this world?" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). (It's also one of the few abilities of the Amethyst Dragon that doesn't turn into an easily-recognizable Star Wars reference, but that's beside the point.)

Or maybe MitD got boots of the winterlands (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsoftheWinterlands), that specifically don't leave tracks in snow, the same way Xykon got boots of free movement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html); and this was all deliberately set up to prevent dropping visual hints from the tracks he leaves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html). Like you say, there's little to go with; and it may not even go anywhere....

[Crusher]

I'm going to say a few things in regards to the newest comic.

First, in regards to the "dwarf delicacy" thing, you can basically take it three ways.
1. Xykon is correct, and somewhere it's mentioned that the Mitd's species likes to eat dwarves.
2. Xykon is misremembering, as he tends to do, and it's not a hint at all.
And finally, what my mind immediately jumped to:
3. They are both right, and there is conflicting information. I.e. One source (Xykon's) makes mention of it, and another (Mitd's) completely omits it.
(I should also mention that there's a sub-issue here, namely "did what Xykon maybe read actually say DWARVES specifically or just humanoids in general?" For example, if an entry says "Blorgforgs usually eat forest animals but will eat humanoids if they can get them" then Dwarves could be included as a delicacy under humanoids.)

Now what comes to mind immediately for option 3 is edition differences, which makes it beneficial that we're already discussing that. I can easily imagine one edition stating something about a creature's dietary habits, only for other editions to not mention it at all. This does not have to be an older edition in this case, necessarily, as if some 5e splatbook suddenly decided that kenkus could only talk in quotations, that would be a similar situation ripe for parody.

In any case, the following monstrous manual (2e) entries make mention of liking dwarf meat.

Specifically likes dwarf meat:
Skrag (Aquatic troll) (Devours anything they catch but prefer humanoids and have a fondness for Dwarves)

Specifically dislikes dwarf meat:
Bulette (also mentioned as always hungry)

Dwarves specifically mentioned amongst other humanoids:
Chimera (Enjoys preying upon Dwarves, humans, elves, and halflings)
Ogre (Fondness for Dwarf, Elf and Halfling flesh)
Roper (eats any meat but prefers Humans and Demihumans, Dwarves and Gnomes are common prey)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat demihumans or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Red Dragons (Maidens only, humans ok too)
Yellow Dragons ("Demihumans are delicacies", along with brass dragon eggs)
Giant Frogs
Gith (humans and demihumans are a "choice food supplement")(Not sure if these guys are related to the githyanki or not)
Hag (Prefer humans but will eat orcs or demihumans)
Harpy
Koalinth (Aquatic Hobgoblin)
Werebat (Hungry during metamorphosis... from baby bat to full batman)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat humanoids or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Blood Hawk
Jermlaine Gremlin ( Foot tall humanoid, Humanoid meat is a delicacy)
Ixitxachitl (Carnivorous Manta Ray)
Jacklwere (Were-Jackal)
leucrotta (Carnivorous horse-like creature with a panther-like face. "Legendary Ugliness")
Lycanthrope, Seawolf (Man-wolf-seal, eats lots of normal stuff plus "anyone they can sink their teeth into.")
Mist, Crimson Death (Drinks bodily fluids, "prefers humanoids"
peryton (Deer head bird)
Remorhaz (Bug worm)
Trolls
Killer Whale

Won't eat humanoids:
Hippogriff

Other:
Skriaxit (eats fear)
Orcs (Prefer non-humanoid meat)
Yellow Musk Creeper (Plant, turns humanoids into zombies)
Dragonne (Only attacks humanoids if no other food)
Aboleth (likes to eat intelligent creatures)
Argos (Ravenous creature driven by its hunger, eats anything that moves)

The above list may be incomplete. You can help by expanding it.

Oh, and as a side note, most naga don't have diets listed but the dark naga are specifically said to eat just about anything other than their own species, plant or animal, living or dead, but they especially like fresh blood.

Now, the other thing I wanted to bring up about this comic, is the idea that the MitD has finally gotten enough food to trigger a transformation, likely a size-change, an idea that others had hit upon as well.

Well, while going through the monstrous manual I found an interesting entry on something called a deepspawn. A deepspawn is a gibbering mouther/protean type of aberration creature. It will eat anything organic, and then can grow and give birth to any material plane creature. It then says it gets all the abilities of it's "creator" which I assumed was the deepspawn, but after looking up the 3e version I'm not so sure. The 3e version just says it creates spawn that copy the creature that was eaten and mentions nothing about giving those new spawn abilities like the parent.

Anyway, for a moment there I thought we had a creature that eats other creatures, spawns out psuedonatural versions of those creatures with both creatures' abilities, and then continued the cycle, but I think the description just wasn't clear, or maybe the creature works the opposite way for both editions.

Thanks for doing that. Its too bad the Argos isn't stronger. An epic or near-epic version of it might be an interesting candidate.

[Hardcore]

I like the idea that MitD is still 2nd(?) Ed and is about to grow, evolve, or be upgraded to 3.5 .
The chain of events could even hold logically:
When Dorukan gather the monsters MitD is missed because he is sleeping! (BTW, this could also explain why he don't get an upgrade. )
Later, the big game hunters catches him and then strangely express surprise over two different things: his speech ability and habitat.
Knowing how much everything change between editions it is easy to see that if they expect a 3.5 monster profile, and meet 2nd/1st ed, this is a likely reaction.

Being caged at the cirkus, and later by team Evil, would also explain why he never ends up with other monsters; when we first see MitD he is hidden in the shadows and presumably free to move, but Dorukan is already dead.

[LadyEowyn]

I think that seems like an excellent direction. So we want something that, at some point prior to 3.5, spoke Common and had habitats which included the jungle, and in 3.5e did not speak Common (prob. didn’t speak anything recognizable to an average human as language) and did not typically live in the jungle.

[Sindeloke]

I think that seems like an excellent direction. So we want something that, at some point prior to 3.5, spoke Common and had habitats which included the jungle, and in 3.5e did not speak Common (prob. didn’t speak anything recognizable to an average human as language) and did not typically live in the jungle.

And potentially ate dwarves. I agree with 3Power that that Xykon's line very much hits as an edition joke, or at least some kind of meta about mis-reading the MM entry (perhaps he has confused his Monster Manual entries, and there's something known for eating dwarves that is easily mistaken for the MITD's species due to similar names or appearances).

[Eric the White]

I'd like to put down my vote for the Barghest from The Dragon #26 (1979) The version I'm referring to has an entry on the Forgotten realms wiki which is a bit different than the ones listed in the Proposed Choices.

[Jervis]

I'd like to put down my vote for the Barghest from The Dragon #26 (1979) The version I'm referring to has an entry on the Forgotten realms wiki which is a bit different than the ones listed in the Proposed Choices.

Problem is the only SLA any version of them have is dimension door, at least as far as I can tell. That doesn’t really explaining the tower scene. Plus their CR is typically on the low end

[LadyEowyn]

In my opinion, the Tower scene should probably be explained by immense strength and nothing else. Rich doesn’t follow strict D&D mechanics, and the monster wouldn’t use a special ability when he was trying to hit lightly.

No idea how that applies to the Barghest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In my opinion, the Tower scene should probably be explained by immense strength and nothing else. Rich doesn’t follow strict D&D mechanics, and the monster wouldn’t use a special ability when he was trying to hit lightly.

No idea how that applies to the Barghest.

Barghests gain strength as they eat others. "For every three suitable corpses a barghest devours, it gains 1 Hit Die, and its Strength, Constitution, and natural armor increase by +1". (source (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm))

(Once they reach 27 such corpses, they evolve into a greater Barghest, weirdly losing strength in the process).

To be clear, like I said earlier, barghest have multiple issues - no teleportation, no real explanation for the circus scene, and even at 26 corpses, it's strength is 25, which is nothing to write home about.

ETA: I am unsure what version Eric the White is talking about, but the ones in the FR wiki (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Barghest) don't seems to come with stats, so not sure how they differ from the d20 srd one which is my usual go-to for official versions of monsters.

GW

[LadyEowyn]

I don’t think they fit (the ones in the 2017 calendar are creepy-looking but not enough to fit the circus scene), but I’ll note that the Escape scene can be explained by either teleportation or Wish.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I din’t think they fit, but I’ll note that the Escape scene can be explained by either teleportation or Wish.

Yes, of course, but they have neither. The closest they have is dimension door, and that's a fairly terrible fit.


(the ones in the 2017 calendar are creepy-looking but not enough to fit the circus scene),
They also look either like wolves or goblins, so the "never seen anything like that" comment really struggles to fit them.

GW

[Ortho]

To quote Rich:

Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.

But nothing is contradicted if the amulet passively lures obsolete monsters.

[CountDVB]

While the Monster in the Darkness could just be getting older, maybe it's the Bugbears using Goodberries in their stew? Would explain why he would be feeling not hungry anymore

[Ruck]

Oi. Good summation of the possibilities right there. Which means we are back on the "why doesn't he leave prints on the snow" scenario where we end up with a half-dozen of plausible possibilities, and thus little to go on with.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, that's why I haven't considered the "not as hungry anymore" item from this strip as a clue yet. I can't dispute that it could be; it almost certainly seems to mean something. But since I don't know why it's happening, or that I've even found any monster species that this might point to, I can't say what it might mean more specifically.

[silversaraph]

My god, we are going to find out.

The end is near.

All shall be revealed.

[RandomToon]

So, let's consider for a moment, that it is something that is working backwards. Akin to a Nilbog, but older. Let's go all the way back to "Inverse Monster". It was one of the first "templates" ever given to a monster and goes back to White Dwarf #10 from 1978.

In short, you can apply it to anything. It makes the monster do things it should not be able to do. I can post it here if people want to look at the text, but the gist is that does stuff backwards. For example...if it tries to hit "very lightly" then it produces a slam that will knock someone out of a city; but it specifically says that its damage is unchanged, so they would survive the landing since only does whatever damage it normally would. If it can "teleport self at will" it could instead "teleport other when teleport is restricted" like if it was under a Cloister spell. The other thing about it is that the weaker the monster is, the harder it is for high level parties to fight it - so it is the ultimate trump card against epic heroes. If it had an AC of 2 (in 3.5 terms, so very bad) then it would only be hit by a 1. If it was only hurt by magic weapons, magic weapons would heal it instead (making them "tickle"). If he was super cute, he would make people retch (circus scene). If he has the ability to see things other dimensions (astral or ethereal sight) then not seeing the gates would be explained because he can't see things linked to other dimensions.

Redcloak would know what he is, because he is a cleric and goblins are most affected by becoming a Nilbog. I do not suppose it is a goblin though. In other sources, goblins are specifically resistant to the effects of inverse monsters (Nilbog's) so could explain why RC thinks he is scary as moldy bread, and that RC and family were not affected the same way at the circus. They got their vaccinations, basically.

I think it is something small and cute, that can grow into something huge. Something teleport self at will, and the ability to see\travel into the astral. I do not have a guess as to what the "base" monster would be though.

I have no idea how he would make it rain though.


Barring that, I still say it is the baby grue from Wishbringer. I can't support it, because that game is pure chaos, but I am holding out for it.

Either way, I think we should know everything we are meant to know about the MitD by the end of 2023. Maybe.

[Peelee]

I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, which I will update infrequently. If you have 1 guess, it gets 1 point. 2 ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and 3 ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. 2 non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and 3 non-ordered guesses will go 0.33/0.33/0.33. If you guess more than 3, I'll discard 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a slightly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it.

Super minor proposed update to the scoring system: if the MitD does, in fact, turn out to be Wile E. Coyote, I get ten billion points. I feel this is fair because it was a really silly write-up and won't happen.

Plus even if you say no and it is him I'll still get the points in my heart.

[Jervis]

In my opinion, the Tower scene should probably be explained by immense strength and nothing else. Rich doesn’t follow strict D&D mechanics, and the monster wouldn’t use a special ability when he was trying to hit lightly.

No idea how that applies to the Barghest.


I don’t think they fit (the ones in the 2017 calendar are creepy-looking but not enough to fit the circus scene), but I’ll note that the Escape scene can be explained by either teleportation or Wish.

I meant the escape scene but my mind blanked.

[Taelas]

I don't think it's particularly relevant whether there are published stats for whatever type of creature the MITD is. Even if it's an unupdated 1e/2e creature, it could have been "updated" in-universe, even if there are no official 3e or 3.5e stats.

More likely, I think, is a relatively obscure monster that isn't a D&D creature at all. Relatively obscure because it hasn't been narrowed down to one that happens to fit. I don't have a suggestion myself, it just seems far too narrow to focus on creatures from D&D when I don't think any of the requirements warrants it.

Then again, most such monsters have probably "inspired" D&D monsters at one point or another...

[Ruck]

I don't think it's particularly relevant whether there are published stats for whatever type of creature the MITD is. Even if it's an unupdated 1e/2e creature, it could have been "updated" in-universe, even if there are no official 3e or 3.5e stats.

More likely, I think, is a relatively obscure monster that isn't a D&D creature at all.

If it's not a D&D monster, under what criteria could we consider it "possible to guess"? A big reason for focusing on D&D 3.5 is that those are the rules OOTS operates under, and so we can readily study various monsters' powers under those rules to see if they fit what we've seen from MitD. If it's not a D&D 3.5 monster, perhaps it could be guessed, but far more would be open to interpretation about how its powers would translate into this setting.


Relatively obscure because it hasn't been narrowed down to one that happens to fit.

If this thread led us to be certain on a clear and obvious answer, then Rich would've given us too much information and ruined his planned reveal, which is "a crucial part of the story."


I don't have a suggestion myself

And that's the flipside of it, really. It's easy to poke holes in various cases for monsters, but it's much harder to come up with a better fit than what's been proposed already.

Aside, since I'm thinking about it: Are there any creatures with Wish as an extraordinary ability? Part of me thinks that's the best fit for the Escape, since V and O-Chul literally land on top of Hinjo, and it's very easy for me to picture MitD wording a Wish like "I want to send O-Chul and his elf friend back to their paladin friends." Of course, it's also not too hard to picture MitD using detect thoughts or some other similar ability to read V's mind to figure out where they came from, then use Greater Teleport or what have you, and the direct landing is just an extra punchline.

[Crusher]

Super minor proposed update to the scoring system: if the MitD does, in fact, turn out to be Wile E. Coyote, I get ten billion points. I feel this is fair because it was a really silly write-up and won't happen.

Plus even if you say no and it is him I'll still get the points in my heart.

I feel like that's reasonable. I'll even put them in a little bag for you. If you want to put them in your heart, that doesn't seem like a great idea, especially with the bag, but I'm not a cardiologist so maybe its fine.

[GrayGriffin]

For example...if it tries to hit "very lightly" then it produces a slam that will knock someone out of a city; but it specifically says that its damage is unchanged, so they would survive the landing since only does whatever damage it normally would. If it can "teleport self at will" it could instead "teleport other when teleport is restricted" like if it was under a Cloister spell.

Are those actual examples given in the template entry? Or just you extrapolating from it?

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards. But the "about to metamorphosize" theory also makes quite a bit of sense.

[Ruck]

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards.

This one makes the most intuitive sense to me, particularly once you consider "Sometimes, I eat to fill the loneliness. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html)"

I'm not confident enough to have certainty about it, and I'm open to other explanations and if further details reveal more, but it makes sense to me just on that level.

[Taelas]

If it's not a D&D monster, under what criteria could we consider it "possible to guess"? A big reason for focusing on D&D 3.5 is that those are the rules OOTS operates under, and so we can readily study various monsters' powers under those rules to see if they fit what we've seen from MitD. If it's not a D&D 3.5 monster, perhaps it could be guessed, but far more would be open to interpretation about how its powers would translate into this setting.
Possible is a long way from being easy. The context for that quote was, "I.e. I didn't make it up." As long as its abilities are based on lore about the creature, it fits just fine.


And that's the flipside of it, really. It's easy to poke holes in various cases for monsters, but it's much harder to come up with a better fit than what's been proposed already.
But that's the main problem. There is no good fit. Protean is a copout, since it doesn't actually have any innate ability that it could "dig deep and find" to help the escape—aside from what is basically a mulligan—and completely ignores the main physical characteristics the creature possesses in order to jump through hoops in to try and make it fit. Protean is just the most malleable creature that can be massaged to cover the most bases.


Aside, since I'm thinking about it: Are there any creatures with Wish as an extraordinary ability? Part of me thinks that's the best fit for the Escape, since V and O-Chul literally land on top of Hinjo, and it's very easy for me to picture MitD wording a Wish like "I want to send O-Chul and his elf friend back to their paladin friends." Of course, it's also not too hard to picture MitD using detect thoughts or some other similar ability to read V's mind to figure out where they came from, then use Greater Teleport or what have you, and the direct landing is just an extra punchline.
There are several, but for various reasons, they don't fit. It's through shapeshifting into one of them that Protean gets around the escape scene. I fully agree that wish or miracle is the best fit for the escape, but just like Protean, they're also the most broad. It's somewhat better, though, since they wouldn't be finding a different ability somewhere else, and there isn't any other ability that really fits that we know of.

[Ruck]

But that's the main problem. There is no good fit.

It's not supposed to be so obvious that we all figure out what MitD is years before the reveal. If you find a good fit, propose it. Until then, I'm putting my money on the best fit I've found given the possibilities I know.


Protean is a copout, since it doesn't actually have any innate ability that it could "dig deep and find" to help the escape—aside from what is basically a mulligan—

That ability-- to "assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action" and "[gain] the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics"-- is an innate ability. It doesn't not become one because you think it's too powerful or broad. I mean, the Monster in the Darkness is supposed to be preposterously powerful, given how two quite powerful creatures themselves in Xykon and Redcloak speak of him.


and completely ignores the main physical characteristics the creature possesses in order to jump through hoops in to try and make it fit.

How so?


There are several, but for various reasons, they don't fit. It's through shapeshifting into one of them that Protean gets around the escape scene.

I just wanted to make sure they existed, because then my thoughts on the most likely specific explanation as to how the Escape scene played out also fits for a Protean.

EDIT: Apparently this is far from the first time I've inquired on this topic. In fact, it was one of the very first things I asked about in my early days posting here, after getting caught up on the MitD discussion:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20649350&postcount=1283

[Schroeswald]

To this day the only argument against the protean that has actually been convincing to me is that getting that teleport ability is awkward and it’s not a perfect fit. However every other possibility has a a stronger argument against it than that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

More likely, I think, is a relatively obscure monster that isn't a D&D creature at all. Relatively obscure because it hasn't been narrowed down to one that happens to fit. I don't have a suggestion myself, it just seems far too narrow to focus on creatures from D&D when I don't think any of the requirements warrants it.

We are not "focusing" on D&D creatures at all. You are free to propose any creature you want. We have a non-D&D creature in the FBS list, for Heaven't sake.

GW

[Ruck]

To this day the only argument against the protean that has actually been convincing to me is that getting that teleport ability is awkward and it’s not a perfect fit. However every other possibility has a a stronger argument against it than that.

Right. I mean, I'm fine with it because an explanation exists that fits into the rules as written, but the bolded is really important. So much more has to be stretched or even outright discarded for every other candidate to fit. (And that's before we get to the thematic resonance to the story, where the Protean is really the only monster I've found that actually carries any such resonance with the Monster's character arc.)


We are not "focusing" on D&D creatures at all. You are free to propose any creature you want. We have a non-D&D creature in the FBS list, for Heaven't sake.

GW

And that's the other thing. People are free to propose and suggest whatever they want. It's hard to find good fits, but no one is stopping anyone from trying. It's certainly easier to say what you think it can't be than what you think it can, though. And there's probably a reason, at this point, why it's so hard to find good fits that haven't already been proposed.

My position is pretty simple. I've found the Protean to be by a significant margin the best fit for the MitD, and I've explained why at length. I'm open to hearing new ideas if someone finds a genuinely good fit. I'm open to responding to arguments or evidence against the Protean or against the ideas I've laid out as to why I think that's the answer.

But I don't put too much stock in people simply asserting it's a bad fit without argument or evidence. Or people declaring it doesn't "feel right" to them for some reason that has nothing to do with the criteria we know ("it's too powerful," "it's not iconic / instantly recognizable enough," "it will be obvious when we figure it out so we must not have figured it out yet," etc.). Or people outright misrepresenting what it can do (the repeated cases of people insisting it's a complete shapeshifter that can do anything, for example).

[Chronos]

Most people keep on focusing on monsters published in D&D sourcebooks, and I really think that's a dead end, especially with regards to the more obscure D&D monsters. Rich never said that Monster-San existed in D&D before he put him in the story; he just said that he existed. And he's been working for a long time at making the comic accessible to folks unfamiliar with D&D: When Monster-San is eventually revealed, it's going to be something that most of the readership, not just the D&D players, will be able to go "Oh, OK, it's <one of those>!". Now, some monsters that pre-existed D&D have made it into the rulebooks, but those are mostly going to be found in the first volume, and I think we've pretty well settled that none of those are a good fit. So I think it's likely that he's not in any D&D rulebook at all.

[Schroeswald]

Of the three biggest scenes of evidence on what the MiTD is the Protean is far and away the best fit for two of them. Nothing comes close to working as well in the circus and we’ve found nothing that is all that close in strength to the protean, especially at the size the MiTD currently is, making it the best fit for the tower scene. While I am inclined to label the Escape Scene as more important than those the Protean still fits okay enough there as well.

[Eric the White]

Barghests gain strength as they eat others. "For every three suitable corpses a barghest devours, it gains 1 Hit Die, and its Strength, Constitution, and natural armor increase by +1". ([snipped link]
(Once they reach 27 such corpses, they evolve into a greater Barghest, weirdly losing strength in the process).

To be clear, like I said earlier, barghest have multiple issues - no teleportation, no real explanation for the circus scene, and even at 28 corpses, it's strength is 25, which is nothing to write home about.

ETA: I am unsure what version Eric the White is talking about, but [snipped link] don't seems to come with stats, so not sure how they differ from the d20 srd one which is my usual go-to for official versions of monsters.

GW

That is the version/source I'm talking about, but you can also see Dragon issue 26 in a PDF scan online. I think it works because seeing something that looks like you turning into a wolf like creature can be disturbing. Think about how humans feel about the scenes where we see them turning into werewolves. He's particularly disturbing to a audience of goblins. He might not get the same reaction from a group of adventurers, or us when we finally see his form and fail to be repulsed just due to the limits of the medium. Also in that source it says they get access to numerous spell like abilities, but don't list them all. One could be teleportation. The source also talks about a greater barghest (which the MitD's father would have to be given the life cycle) needing to be housed in a holed out mountain because he's so big, yet the lesser ones are medium. I think the lack of stats actually helps the case here because the strength can be whatever the Giant wants it to be without him breaking the published "rules."

Sorry for the lack of links, I dont have that permission yet.

[Crusher]

That is the version/source I'm talking about, but you can also see Dragon issue 26 in a PDF scan online. I think it works because seeing something that looks like you turning into a wolf like creature can be disturbing. Think about how humans feel about the scenes where we see them turning into werewolves. He's particularly disturbing to a audience of goblins. He might not get the same reaction from a group of adventurers, or us when we finally see his form and fail to be repulsed just due to the limits of the medium. Also in that source it says they get access to numerous spell like abilities, but don't list them all. One could be teleportation. The source also talks about a greater barghest (which the MitD's father would have to be given the life cycle) needing to be housed in a holed out mountain because he's so big, yet the lesser ones are medium. I think the lack of stats actually helps the case here because the strength can be whatever the Giant wants it to be without him breaking the published "rules."

Sorry for the lack of links, I dont have that permission yet.

Eh. MitD is particularly *not* disturbing to the goblins. The human-looking folks are the ones feeling weird and queasy while the goblins are cheering. Maybe because they’ve seen him repeatedly, but we don’t know. Also, lack of published stats is a double-edged sword. Sure, you can interpret it however you like, but it makes getting the fluff dead-on accurate really important, because that’s all you’ve got, right? The MitD isn’t “strong”. It’s “awesomely, earth-shatteringly strong”. So if you lack stats and the description says the creature “can get really strong”, convincing people that it’s even in the ballpark is going to be a heavy lift, so to speak.

Worth noting that a Greater Barghast can have a STR of 29, which doesn’t quite get there but is close.

[Eric the White]

Eh. MitD is particularly *not* disturbing to the goblins. The human-looking folks are the ones feeling weird and queasy while the goblins are cheering. Maybe because they’ve seen him repeatedly, but we don’t know. Also, lack of published stats is a double-edged sword. Sure, you can interpret it however you like, but it makes getting the fluff dead-on accurate really important, because that’s all you’ve got, right? The MitD isn’t “strong”. It’s “awesomely, earth-shatteringly strong”. So if you lack stats and the description says the creature “can get really strong”, convincing people that it’s even in the ballpark is going to be a heavy lift, so to speak.

Worth noting that a Greater Barghast can have a STR of 29, which doesn’t quite get there but is close.

Man I was misremembering that scene. I was thinking it was all goblin attendees. good catch. On the other stuff, I suppose I may have a slightly different expectation of how "perfect" the Giants reveal is going to be. He's never really shown a huge fidelity to the rules of D&D. I don't think the monster is going to perfect in the sense that it was this thing that (1)we all know about and (2)matches the published rules perfectly and (3)few/none of us guessed it. There's going to be some slop in one or more of those things. I don't believe he will be able to show us something that causes us to "recoil in abject horror" both because of the cartoon nature, and because we the readers generally view him favorably and will judge him based on that, as well as his appearance. I expect similar grey area in his stats/rules/ and how well the monster matches the big scenes.

I what I do expect is that his reveal will be pretty epic and will serve the story and not some sourcebook.

[halfeye]

Of the three biggest scenes of evidence on what the MiTD is the Protean is far and away the best fit for two of them. Nothing comes close to working as well in the circus and we’ve found nothing that is all that close in strength to the protean, especially at the size the MiTD currently is, making it the best fit for the tower scene. While I am inclined to label the Escape Scene as more important than those the Protean still fits okay enough there as well.

The biggest problem with the protean is the eyes. The MitD has two eyes in the same place all the time. The protean boils, and grows eyes all over at random. That is not a good fit.

[Carl]

For the voting put me down for Neh-Thalggu for now. I may change my mind later.

Now to engage in a bit of "throwing mud at the wall" on other possibilities:

I also like the suggestion of an Inverse Template earlier, I've suspected he's some kind of template for a while but i've never seen a template monster combo i like enough to go "thats it".

Also random aside question, what happens to gods when they die in D&D, are there any remenant types that could produce somthing like the MitD?

[Darth Paul]

Gee, #1260l (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html) got me flustered.

So, should we or should we not start looking for creatures who prefer eating dwarves? Xykon "thought he read it somewhere" but MitD himself doesn't think he finds dwarves a delicacy. Then again, there are a lot of things he doesn't know about his own species (including what species he is).

Is this a clue, or not?

There's also the "feeling that something has changed" as far as his constant hunger. Does this or could this mean he has been eating all this time to build mass for some impending growth spurt or tranformation? That might argue towards being a Slaad of some kind, even though many other factors seem to point away from that creature.

I'm so confused.

[Squire Doodad]

The biggest problem with the protean is the eyes. The MitD has two eyes in the same place all the time. The protean boils, and grows eyes all over at random. That is not a good fit.

As has been explained, there is a mechanical method by which the Protean can avoid this and a thematic reason for MitD to be doing that. It's a relatively minor issue compared to, say, the Uvuudam.


On the "liking dwarves" line:
I think we should relegate it to being a bonus point if it's included in a creature, but negligible if not. Like how we don't take points off if a monster lacks a shout-centric ability, but it's a point in favor if it can.



There's also the "feeling that something has changed" as far as his constant hunger. Does this or could this mean he has been eating all this time to build mass for some impending growth spurt or tranformation? That might argue towards being a Slaad of some kind, even though many other factors seem to point away from that creature.
On one hand, this is most likely a variation of the "MitD eats to fill the loneliness, but now he has more important things to do than eat" argument - but I wouldn't be surprised if MitD's species has an obscure growth spurt fluff somewhere that he's on the verge of.

[Peelee]

Are those actual examples given in the template entry? Or just you extrapolating from it?

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards. But the "about to metamorphosize" theory also makes quite a bit of sense.


This one makes the most intuitive sense to me, particularly once you consider "Sometimes, I eat to fill the loneliness. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html)"

I'm not confident enough to have certainty about it, and I'm open to other explanations and if further details reveal more, but it makes sense to me just on that level.

This is in line with my thoughts. MitD ate due to immature boredom and lack of interest in actually doing other things. IMO the loss of permanent appetite is indicative of him growing as a person, not biological changes.

[RandomToon]

Are those actual examples given in the template entry? Or just you extrapolating from it?

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards. But the "about to metamorphosize" theory also makes quite a bit of sense.

I am extrapolating in part on the actual monster entry, and on how versions of it have been presented over the course 5 editions. Examples that specific are unlikely - I can post the actual text, if you want.

I agree about the hungry part.

[Jaziggy]

Are there any creatures with Wish as an extraordinary ability? Part of me thinks that's the best fit for the Escape, since V and O-Chul literally land on top of Hinjo, and it's very easy for me to picture MitD wording a Wish like "I want to send O-Chul and his elf friend back to their paladin friends." Of course, it's also not too hard to picture MitD using detect thoughts or some other similar ability to read V's mind to figure out where they came from, then use Greater Teleport or what have you, and the direct landing is just an extra punchline.

100% agree, and I think most would, that Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision is the tidiest fit for the escape. Sending people away in exactly that fashion is a listed effect of those spells. MITD is not a caster, so your instinct that it should be an extraordinary ability is also shared by pretty much everyone.

This is what led me to look at literally every sourcebook I could find, hunting for Wish/RR critters. I never found any, and the closest I came was the xenocrysth, which is an interesting idea but certainly not as deeply satisfying as some kind of psionic sorcerous super-ogre big boss loitering at the back page of a Forgotten Realms epic level adventure kit.

I'm inclined towards Reality Revision because there's a quality of 'he wants it bad enough and makes it happen' to the scene. But even incorporating Wish and Miracle, the list of critters in mainstream books is very, very short.

Dragons
Genies
Glabrezu and some other demons
Zodar
Protean (via it's ability to assume a form of some creature that can Wish)

There's nothing else (I'm probably missing a couple) in the main manuals you'd want to look at- epic level handbook, monster manual, expanded psionics handbook, etc. Of course you can get to Wish/Reality Revision quite easily with classes or templating critters, but that's frowned upon around here since you can template up pretty much anything Large or smaller and get there- it's a phrenic psuedonatural paragon kobold... no wait it's a phrenic psuedonatural paragon awakened chicken... no wait it's a phrenic... you get the idea. Besides if it's going to be that it's going to be a phrenic psuedonatural paragon Hollyphant because that would be the most hilarious possible thing.

There are things that can Wish or Reality Revise as a SPELL- a lich, a demilich, and your more classable and humanoid psionic or sorcerous creatures: Githyanki, Illithids, some epic-level Maenad.

Overall we've got three sort of broad categories of being:


Heavies who seem MiTD like in many ways but lack the magical skillsets
Creatures with all the power checkboxes but who are either way too big or don't have the right number of eyes and limbs
Creatures of the right size and power but who don't fit with MiTD's unique personality


I do not think there is a creature that fits neatly. So we're left considering ways in which you might fudge the gaps in this list- can we give a protean two eyes and a mouth? Can we shrink down an amethyst dragon? Can we stack a couple templates on a Hollyphant? Can we fudge the teleport rules enough to get O-Chul where he needs to go with a level 4 spell?

It's a fun game, although I suspect it will sadly come to an end in the next few months. Until then, though, we speculate wildly!

[littlebum2002]

100% agree, and I think most would, that Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision is the tidiest fit for the escape. Sending people away in exactly that fashion is a listed effect of those spells. MITD is not a caster, so your instinct that it should be an extraordinary ability is also shared by pretty much everyone.

I agree that those 3 fit the scene the best, but V's Dimensional Anchor that missed just seems to out of place to not be relevant. The MitD teleporting V and O-Chul while not taking himself due tot he dimensional anchor doesn't fit as well as those 3 but it would be a very clever way to do it.

[Niveus Candidus]

Question for Rich, if he ever glances at these sprawling threads, if we found a something big--One of the pivotal scenes upon which we base our musings--that was wrong, would he lampshade the error in the comic? A throwaway line that "Really? Dimension Door requires the caster to go with the target? Someone find the retcon button for the script!" would help a lot with the Escape Scene. I know it might be too obvious but it would save a lot of teeth gnashing when the reveal does come to pass.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Protean (via it's ability to assume a form of some creature that can Wish)

(We have never found a creature that has wish as an Ex ability; at current, protean relies on Greater Teleport as its explanation for the escape. It is surprising we even found that, since the Ex abilities are consistently the weakest of the three)

GW

[Ron Miel]

Several years ago I suggested The Pooka as a candidate for MITD's identity. I didn't list my reasons in any detail at the time, and it passed almost unnoticed. After several years I've finally got around to noting why I think its a good candidate. Note that I'm basing it on real-world legends, rather than any D&D sourcebook.


-------------
Traditions
-------------


The Pooka is the subject of widespread mythology. There are legends from many countries across Europe. He is also known in various countris as Púca, Pwca, Phouka, Phooka, Poque, Bucca, or Puck. I favour the English spelling Pooka over other languages because this is a English language comic.

Pookas are fairy creatures, with the ability speak the language of humans, and to cast magic spells.

Pookas are shapeshifters. They can take many different forms, usually appearing in the form of animals including dog, cat, goat, bull, ass, etc. It has several favourites. One favourite form is a goblin, so hideous in appearance that milk will curdle just in his presence. A common form is a rabbit or hare the size of a tall man that walks walks upright. He most often appears as a magnificent horse. He sometimes appears in human form, but often gets a detail wrong, such as having animal ears or a tail. When appearing in many of his various animal forms he will be covered in black hair, and have yellow eyes.

Accounts vary. Different countries have different views of his nature. In some traditions, the Pooka is a benign guardian spirit, who will protect a particular village, or a particular person. Other traditions see him as a force of destruction who needs to be placated. In some versions Pooaks are said to devour people whole.

In other versions he is a prankster who will play frightening, but harmless tricks. A story told about the Pooka is how he appeared in Horse form to a drunken man, walking home alone after the pubs shut. The Pooka invited the man to ride upon his back. He then took the man for a terrifying ride, flying at high speed above the treetops for hundreds of miles, before eventually returning him home. Only the legendary warrior king Brian Boru was permitted to ride him like a normal horse.

All traditions see him as potentially destructive, if he gets upset, or protecting his favourite person place.

In all versions of the legend, the Pooka has a ravenous appetite. Farmers harvesting their crops leave a share for the Pooka. Even a benign Pooka can unleash a terrible destructive force If he doesn't get his share.

Some Pookas are said to feel lonely, and will seek out friends to talk to. Sometimes a Pooka will put on human form then knock at the door of an old house and tell the current resident that the Pooka used to live in this house, just to start a conversation. In Ireland people often put a Pooka's seat outside the house in case the Pooka calls, so they can sit down and shoot the breeze.

Pookas will sometimes rescue people in danger. They might intervene to prevent an accident, to warn of oncoming danger, or to lead people out of a trap. One tale tells of people lost in a swamp, where one false step could get them sucked down to a watery grave. They were guided along the safe path by a Pooka.

----------------
Matches MITD ?
----------------

I think the various legends of the Pookas fit MITD pretty closely. Consider:
- Some pookas are said to devour humans. Others don't. Xykon keeps trying to get MITD to devour people, but MITD is reluctant. It fits.
- Ravenous appetite - check
- Destructive force if he doesn't get his share - check
- Yellow eyes - check
- Black fur - maybe. Perhaps it isn't just darkness under the umbrella.
- Lonely, seeks friendships - check.
- speaks Common - check

A Pooka isn't one of any 'impossible' creature types. Nor is it subject to copyright restrictions.

A Pooka's shapeshifting can expain a lot. When captured in the jungle, I speculate he was wearing horse form. The hunters ould be surprised to see a horse in the jungle. Horses live on the plains. They would have been even more surprised to hear a horse speak. At the circus, I speculate that he wore Ugly Goblin form. This could have upset the human audience, but pleased a Goblin family.

Being a shapeshifter will mean that Rich doesn't have to actually draw a hideously ugly creature. Once he discards the umbrella he can take a more handsome form.

Does it explain O-Chul's escape? Maybe. Pookas sometimes help people escape from daner. Pookas are known to be magic users. I haven't found ny specific legend where they teleport people, but it's not too far from known lore. This, I have to admit, is the weakest link in the argument. Even so, it sort of fits.

Does match the Tower scene? Possibly. Pookas can be a destructive force. Presumably they are both very strong and damage resistant.

------------
Final word
------------

A great warrior is occasionally allowed to ride a Pooka. I note that O-Chul is in need of a paladin mount. I speculate that MITD will volunteer to be O-Chul's mount, in horse form, and happily ride off to face battle with him.

--------
Sources
--------

https://symbolsage.com/pooka-celtic-horse-goblins/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%BAca

https://www.theirishroadtrip.com/the-puca/

http://www.irelandseye.com/paddy3/preview2.htm

https://www.connollycove.com/pookas/

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/irish-legend-pooka

https://www.yourirish.com/folklore/irish-pookas

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When captured in the jungle, I speculate he was wearing horse form.

A horse is not the kind of creature that you can sell for so much profit it can pay for a curse removal, I don't imagine. The SBGH reaction suggests tht MitD is rare but not unique, not a commonplace animal worth a couple hundred gp.

As to the rest, I'd need far better support for the Escape scene before I'd buy into this. My experience with the kind of tale this pooka might show up in suggests that escapes might involve paths through the fey lands or magical objects (strangely frequently but not always common objects that when thrown grow into large obstacles), but never outright teleportation.

Also, I fail to see how this pooka is different from any of a dozen other fey and fey-like creatures from folkstales; plenty of them are friendly sometimes nd dangerous in other (or sometimes the same!) tale, displaying enormous strength at times, enormous appetites at times, etc. I'm no expert, mind you, but one gets the feeling they're the same tales told all over, recycled to slot the local names for the pixies in each region, of which this pooka looks to be one such name, but with no actual solid lore behind it, so that it fits any tale that requires a mysterious creature to fill the antagonist/assistant role.

(speaking of, it only just clicked that the linnorm is a weird variation on the lind worm, which is another "slot here creature" for tales that call for a dragon-like antagonist, as explained by Red in this great video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F24DV_Og5ug))

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

My gut feeling is that the Stew bit indicates that MITD has now...If not stopped growing, at the very least, reached close enough to his full adult size. Basically, his hunger was the result of a continual growth spurt he's just gotten out of.

[Eric the White]

My gut feeling is that the Stew bit indicates that MITD has now...If not stopped growing, at the very least, reached close enough to his full adult size. Basically, his hunger was the result of a continual growth spurt he's just gotten out of.

Agreed. Unless the author is deliberately trying to throw people off with that info, Conservation of Detail indicates that they would not spend half a page talking about something that effectively has no meaning.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agreed. Unless the author is deliberately trying to throw people off with that info, Conservation of Detail indicates that they would not spend half a page talking about something that effectively has no meaning.

It has plenty of meaning. It is further character development of MitD in his personal journey towards the heel face turn.

What it need not be is a clue for the guessing game.

GW

[Peelee]

Agreed. Unless the author is deliberately trying to throw people off with that info, Conservation of Detail indicates that they would not spend half a page talking about something that effectively has no meaning.

Notwithstanding that I disagree that it has no meaning unless it's regarding a biological change for the MitD...
Conservation of Detail is overrated.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The biggest problem with the protean is the eyes. The MitD has two eyes in the same place all the time. The protean boils, and grows eyes all over at random.

... unless he expends half his actions NOT changing. Because, say, he is trying to fit in with his friends, none of which constantly change. Which would be seen by those around him unaware of the effort it requires as laziness, since it takes him twice as much time to get anything done as it would for anyone else.

All of which has been stated before, in this thread, in response to this very assertion, without ever being contested.

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

Notwithstanding that I disagree that it has no meaning unless it's regarding a biological change for the MitD...

Overrated is not the same as irrelevant, though. And I think the Giant is likely to be more concerned with conservation of detail specifically in regards to the MitD, because he's built up this mystery/guessing game about the MitD's identity.

[Peelee]

Overrated is not the same as irrelevant, though. And I think the Giant is likely to be more concerned with conservation of detail specifically in regards to the MitD, because he's built up this mystery/guessing game about the MitD's identity.

It's not the same, no, but given how the author has said its overrated, making theories based on it seems like a poor basis to use.

Again, notwithstanding that I disagreed with the premise that it was meaningless if not related to biological change to start with.

[3Power]

While the Monster in the Darkness could just be getting older, maybe it's the Bugbears using Goodberries in their stew? Would explain why he would be feeling not hungry anymore

That would be one heck of a herring, but I like the idea.


There are things that can Wish or Reality Revise as a SPELL- a lich, a demilich, and your more classable and humanoid psionic or sorcerous creatures: Githyanki, Illithids, some epic-level Maenad.Also creatures with inherent spellcasting as a sorcerer or cleric, such as ha-nagas or angels.

Heavies who seem MiTD like in many ways but lack the magical skillsets
Creatures with all the power checkboxes but who are either way too big or don't have the right number of eyes and limbs
Creatures of the right size and power but who don't fit with MiTD's unique personality

I do not think there is a creature that fits neatly. So we're left considering ways in which you might fudge the gaps in this list- can we give a protean two eyes and a mouth? Can we shrink down an amethyst dragon? Can we stack a couple templates on a Hollyphant? Can we fudge the teleport rules enough to get O-Chul where he needs to go with a level 4 spell?I think people are too married to the initial presentation of the MitD as a threat. We are introduced (off camera) to what is portrayed as physical prowess when he "hits" Miko, and are then subsequently shown MitD lightly tapping the ground and creating an earthquake, which can easily track as physical strength. Then the escape happens, and happens in a way which strongly implies Wish, and the concept is turned on its head, because now we are left with a creature who is not only supremely strong, but supremely magical, a venn diagram for which there are little to no overlapping creatures. However, if you then go back and look at the tower and earthquake scene with the mindset that there is a magical explanation for both, such as the telekinetic thrust mode of telekinesis and earthquake, then I think there are more satisfying solution. However, as I said, people seem married to the initial strength based explanation and would rather downplay the scale of the magic used in the escape scene to allow for a very physically strong creature to be the candidate, rather than consider that the creature used magic to perform those feats.

On a related note, I decided to look up discussions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587475-Readied-Dimension-Anchor-vs-Teleport)on "what happens if a dimensionally anchored creature tries to teleport someone else," and the consensus on RAW seems to be that because the spell "brings people along," if the caster doesn't go, nobody goes.


... unless he expends half his actions NOT changing. Because, say, he is trying to fit in with his friends, none of which constantly change. Which would be seen by those around him unaware of the effort it requires as laziness, since it takes him twice as much time to get anything done as it would for anyone else.

All of which has been stated before, in this thread, in response to this very assertion, without ever being contested.
It's been contested, both because it loses in occams razor to him actually having those eyes without having to do anything to maintain them, even when asleep, and that maintaining the same form constantly goes against their fluff.

The protean is specifically mentioned as:
"Always appearing in flux"
"Rarely does any attribute last for more than a minute"
"Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing."
"Imbued with hatred for all non-shapechanging beings"
"Looking down at even other shapechangers for staying in the same form for hours"
"Constantly traveling, looking for other creatures to duplicate and abilities to assume, often killing them afterwards."

I don't know how anyone can read that passage and come to the conclusion that it describes a creature who "always wants to stay the same to make friends with non-shapechangers and is too lazy to not use an action to not transform."


Conservation of Detail is overrated.Context?

[Peelee]

Context?

I conveniently made sure to include the post ID so you can click the button in the quote block to be directed to the full post.

[Squire Doodad]

I think people are too married to the initial presentation of the MitD as a threat. We are introduced (off camera) to what is portrayed as physical prowess when he "hits" Miko, and are then subsequently shown MitD lightly tapping the ground and creating an earthquake, which can easily track as physical strength. Then the escape happens, and happens in a way which strongly implies Wish, and the concept is turned on its head, because now we are left with a creature who is not only supremely strong, but supremely magical, a venn diagram for which there are little to no overlapping creatures. However, if you then go back and look at the tower and earthquake scene with the mindset that there is a magical explanation for both, such as the telekinetic thrust mode of telekinesis and earthquake, then I think there are more satisfying solution. However, as I said, people seem married to the initial strength based explanation and would rather downplay the scale of the magic used in the escape scene to allow for a very physically strong creature to be the candidate, rather than consider that the creature used magic to perform those feats.

I believe we've had this discuss before; the only appropriate means of magically doing the Tower Scene that we've found are far too weak or have other prerequisites that screw with the plausibility. And even saying "well what if he goes full throttle by mistake" won't work if the limit is too weak, and performing an entirely different, high-powered option makes as much sense for a telekinetic creature as the "headbutting an egg" analogy.
Things like magic EQ exist and are noted as beneficial when they come up, but despite our best attempts we just haven't found much with a magical solution within the constraints of the big scenes.

I think either something where their telekinesis has special fluff about being wildly unpredictable when young, or especially if a Critical Failure/Success causes a different effect than normal, would be satisfactory. Not to mention something that simply has an absurd custom weight limit on its telekinetic powers. But, either way, nothing that meaningfully achieves this has been found.

[3Power]

I believe we've had this discuss before; the only appropriate means of magically doing the Tower Scene that we've found are far too weak or have other prerequisites that screw with the plausibility. And even saying "well what if he goes full throttle by mistake" won't work if the limit is too weak, and performing an entirely different, high-powered option makes as much sense for a telekinetic creature as the "headbutting an egg" analogy.
Things like magic EQ exist and are noted as beneficial when they come up, but despite our best attempts we just haven't found much with a magical solution within the constraints of the big scenes.

I think either something where their telekinesis has special fluff about being wildly unpredictable when young, or especially if a Critical Failure/Success causes a different effect than normal, would be satisfactory. Not to mention something that simply has an absurd custom weight limit on its telekinetic powers. But, either way, nothing that meaningfully achieves this has been found.

Any discussion about what is too strong or too weak for the tower scene is subjective.

The question is "is there a method by which someone could magically launch a creature at high speed?"

The answer is "yes."

[Squire Doodad]

Any discussion about what is too strong or too weak for the tower scene is subjective.

The question is "is there a method by which someone could magically launch a creature at high speed?"

The answer is "yes."

You can say that, but when the weight limit isn't enough to lift an armored person without even considering chucking them through a wall, it becomes a major nonstarter no matter how much subjectivity you put in.

[3Power]

You can say that, but when the weight limit isn't enough to lift an armored person without even considering chucking them through a wall, it becomes a major nonstarter no matter how much subjectivity you put in.
First of all, armored humans are easily under 375 pounds. The problem was the horse.
Second, I doubt the Giant cares about weight limits. (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/4/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/e30%3D/1.png?token-time=1657324800&token-hash=TolNG3Z2t3Q3oQ1tHMk-OrKwZ9Mn0iGVYHJdE-1My4M%3D)

[Darth Paul]

On one hand, this is most likely a variation of the "MitD eats to fill the loneliness, but now he has more important things to do than eat" argument - but I wouldn't be surprised if MitD's species has an obscure growth spurt fluff somewhere that he's on the verge of.

This is an angle I hadn't thought of, put it down to fatigue (I had just got out of physical therapy). I tend to agree with this, or the possibility that he has actually finished growing to Adult size. Or both.


... Which would be seen by those around him unaware of the effort it requires as laziness, since it takes him twice as much time to get anything done as it would for anyone else.

Grey Wolf

Waddya know, that's exactly the reason I'm doing physical therapy!

[Ruck]

I what I do expect is that his reveal will be pretty epic and will serve the story and not some sourcebook.

Indeed, "the reveal is a crucial part of the story. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?411301-Interview-Questions-For-Rich/page2&p=19160428#post19160428)"

And I don't think "crucial" means that we the readers finally know what he is; I think it's going to be a pivotal scene to the climax in some way.

[Schroeswald]

If we’re expecting the MiTD’s species to be easily recognizable to an average OOTS reader its the slaad and we can call it a day because they remain the only remotely iconic monster that’s a good fit.

[Shining Wrath]

Ruck just made me think of something - can you teleport to an occupied space? The 3.5 spell description doesn't actually say "No", so I guess it's possible. I think they fixed that for 5e.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ruck just made me think of something - can you teleport to an occupied space?

I believe that'd fall under the % chance of "mishap (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm)" (where you take a bit of damage, and roll again)?

GW

[Crusher]

... unless he expends half his actions NOT changing. Because, say, he is trying to fit in with his friends, none of which constantly change. Which would be seen by those around him unaware of the effort it requires as laziness, since it takes him twice as much time to get anything done as it would for anyone else.

All of which has been stated before, in this thread, in response to this very assertion, without ever being contested.

Grey Wolf

I don’t entirely disagree, but didn’t he consistently have two yellow eyes when caught by the SBGHs? Who was he fitting in with then?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don’t entirely disagree, but didn’t he consistently have two yellow eyes when caught by the SBGHs? Who was he fitting in with then?

Whomever he was trying to become friends with pre-SBGH post-parental abandonment. He was never antagonistic - it's why he tried to politely request to be let go instead of just tapping the SBGH's box and being on his way. He has always tried to fit in, and even in the jungle, almost everything around him would have had the fairly standard binocular vision setup.

As to "consistently", we have no idea. The scene starts practically in media res. For all we can tell, he had just deluded himself into thinking he had made friends with a tiger. But maybe the day before he had thought himself friends with some four-eyed D&D jungle creature, and he had four eyes for a few hours.

GW

[Eric the White]

It's not the same, no, but given how the author has said its overrated, making theories based on it seems like a poor basis to use.

Again, notwithstanding that I disagreed with the premise that it was meaningless if not related to biological change to start with.

That's a very fair point, I just don't really see this a heel-face turn. The MitD has always been childlike and good. He remains so now. Where he is developing is in realizing that not all people that claim to be your friends actually have your best interests and wellbeing at heart. That's been shown much better through his actions in helping in the escape and by painting the doors.

I don't think that his lack of hunger stems from the fact that he no longer feels lonely as some have suggested. My personal thought (based on my choice of Barghest) is that the bug bear cook figures he must need humanoid food and has been putting it in the stew. Consequently he's getting ready to become a greater Barghest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MitD has always been childlike and good.

MitD heartily joined on the evil laugh (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) after hearing Xykon's plans, and has until now had no issues with eating sentient creatures as long as they were not babies (and explicitly, the babies compunction applied to all creatures, sentient and non-sentient alike).

He was perfectly fine with evil actions until he started talking to O-Chul.

GW

[Taelas]

Ruck just made me think of something - can you teleport to an occupied space? The 3.5 spell description doesn't actually say "No", so I guess it's possible. I think they fixed that for 5e.

That's covered under Conjuration: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

Come to think of it, that's another point against the Escape scene being teleportation of some kind, as they appeared mid-air above Hinjo (though not a solid one, as V has teleported while flying—though that was using epic teleport).

[Chris Mass]

Hi all. Long time lurker who always follows this thread with interest. Just had a random thought occur and wanted to throw it out there in case it's remotely helpful.

Saw some talk up thread that the thing about MitD eating Dwarfs being some sort of oblique reference to Red Dwarf. Someone else posted about the Polymorph episode, but I sincerely doubt there's anything much there.

However, as I'm sure many of you know, a ton of D&D monsters originated in the Fiend Factory articles in *White* Dwarf.

Seems a lot more plausible if this is some sort of clue, that it's pointing towards a monster that first showed up there. I know many things made it into the original Fiend Folio back in the day and are well known D&D creatures even now, but presumably a lot of stuff didn't.

Not sure if this is old news and somebody has combed over an archive of those old articles for candidates long ago, but figured I'd give it a mention. Apologies if this is redundant

[Ruck]

I don’t entirely disagree, but didn’t he consistently have two yellow eyes when caught by the SBGHs? Who was he fitting in with then?


Whomever he was trying to become friends with pre-SBGH post-parental abandonment. He was never antagonistic - it's why he tried to politely request to be let go instead of just tapping the SBGH's box and being on his way. He has always tried to fit in, and even in the jungle, almost everything around him would have had the fairly standard binocular vision setup.

As to "consistently", we have no idea. The scene starts practically in media res. For all we can tell, he had just deluded himself into thinking he had made friends with a tiger. But maybe the day before he had thought himself friends with some four-eyed D&D jungle creature, and he had four eyes for a few hours.

GW

Somewhat related, if you don't really like the "he's maintaining a face to fit in" idea, idea, I found a post by Peelee (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24575576&postcount=404) in an old thread that offers another explanation without resorting to that:


You may call "he always has two eyes when the camera is on him" cheating. But in a world that literally runs off dramatic convention, where a one-in-a-million chance that an imp summoning help will get him a massive, super-powerful demon, where a warlord is able to conquer an entire continent based solely on his grasp of the narrative, I would say that it is perfectly in line with how the rest of the world works.

I do not think the MitD is taking standard actions to have his eyes be in their positions constantly. I think that in one shot, he has two eyes by each other in the same mass, in another shot he has one eye in the same place and another on a tall eyestalk with a low base, in another shot a tentacle with an eye on it and an eye on the top of his low head and another in the back but we don't see it because we only see the front, every time with the eyes positioned so that it appears they are in the same position, and more or fewer or displaced eyes off-camera, because the fact that he is kept as a surprise means the universe itself will work with that fact. Because that's how this universe explicitly works. If you tell another character a plan on-camera, the plan will not work regardless of how good it is, because that's how the universe. If an ever-shifting monster is kept as a surprise, the eyes will not spoil the surprise, because that's how the universe works. Or, if you prefer, the odds of us only ever seeing MitD's ever-shifting eyes always in the same position and same count are one in a million - or, in other words, a sure thing.

Because that's how this universe works.

(In fact, I might need to edit my essay to include a link to this.)

Or, another way to see it is, we don't really know what is going on in the darkness. Maybe there are a bunch of other occasionally forming eyes we don't see. Maybe what is actually different eyes moving around and sprouting from different places we just end up only looking at MitD when they're both in that standard position. Or heck, maybe the magical (I think?) darkness purposely makes MitD appear that way outwardly because Xykon and Redcloak don't want to have to look at a bunch of moving eyeballs.

[DavidBV]

A rambling unrelated to the last strip.

Since I failed in finding a D&D creature that matches the given clues to my entire satisfaction, and since I feel the same about candidates proposed, I was looking into greek mythology. MitD could be linked to the disappeared Eastern Pantheon... and maybe even be a descendant of Typhoon, called the "Father of all Monsters", and son of Zeus himself. Typhoon was the father of the Medusa, the Lion of Nemea, the Sphynx, Cerberus, the Chimera... all his offspring seems to be a monstruous celebrity.

The appeal I find in this idea is that plot-wise, this could make the MitD part of the "solution", as a remnant of the pantheon's color. The only "small problem" I have is... I haven't found yet any good match :P but I keep searching. Maaybe someone with better knowledge of greek mythology has already discarded this path, but at least I am learning fun stuff...

[Jervis]

A rambling unrelated to the last strip.

Since I failed in finding a D&D creature that matches the given clues to my entire satisfaction, and since I feel the same about candidates proposed, I was looking into greek mythology. MitD could be linked to the disappeared Eastern Pantheon... and maybe even be a descendant of Typhoon, called the "Father of all Monsters", and son of Zeus himself. Typhoon was the father of the Medusa, the Lion of Nemea, the Sphynx, Cerberus, the Chimera... all his offspring seems to be a monstruous celebrity.

The appeal I find in this idea is that plot-wise, this could make the MitD part of the "solution", as a remnant of the pantheon's color. The only "small problem" I have is... I haven't found yet any good match :P but I keep searching. Maaybe someone with better knowledge of greek mythology has already discarded this path, but at least I am learning fun stuff...

Only issue is that the Greek pantheon died off worlds ago so you would need MitD’s family to have either survived all that for a million worlds or he would have to come from the snarl world. And as far as we know nothing would have been able to cross over. The flashback that told us about the snarl mentioned that it attacked someone from a rift but i’m not sure something could cross over then. He would also be the son of a god which in dnd terms makes him divine rank 0, which gives him mind effecting immunity.

That aside, I do like the idea thematically though it would make the task of making peace with the dark one somewhat redundant. Some kind of son of Zeus might be neat but there aren’t a lot of monsters directly related to him that fit the bill. If it wasn’t for divine ranking making him immune to mind effecting I’d say any kid of Zeus might fit the bill.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

thematically

Thematically, I think that the chances of the plot being resolved by the sudden re-emergence of the green divine quiddity, therefore sidelining the need to collaborate with RC and DO to be rather small.

Also, originally RL greek monsters do not require green quiddity to be formed - we have seen a medusa in the comic. And without the gods to pray to, even if somehow a green quiddity creature had survived (making it in fact the most real thing in the universe together with the snarl, since both would be 4-colour creatures) would still not help because what they need is green spellcasting, not just the creature itself.



In thread news, I was fixing a couple of typos in the OP (thank you, VanFanel!) and I went ahead and sketched the latest clue into 2a: diet. It is probably too early for it, but I can always edit it later if it turns out to lead somewhere.

GW

[Jervis]

Thematically, I think that the chances of the plot being resolved by the sudden re-emergence of the green divine quiddity, therefore sidelining the need to collaborate with RC and DO to be rather small.

Also, originally RL greek monsters do not require green quiddity to be formed - we have seen a medusa in the comic. And without the gods to pray to, even if somehow a green quiddity creature had survived (making it in fact the most real thing in the universe together iwth the snarl, since both would be 4-colour creatures) would still not help because what they need is green spellcasting, not just the creature itself.


To me it all comes down to redcloak. He’s all about the sunk cost fallacy. From his perspective he’s gone to far to turn back now and he won’t do anything to go against his game plan. How in character would it be for him to be so wrapped up in his autoterminal sunk cost thinking that he burns up the dark one and goblin kind as a whole’s chance to get in good with the other gods because of it? My opinion is very. We’re all assuming a character arc that ends with him seeing the error of his ways but to me he’s going very far in the other direction. Especially after Tarquin showed us that thinking with narrative structure isn’t always the answer. That doesn’t mean that dark one and goblins in general need to keep getting the short end of the stick, but I don’t see redcloak being the answer here.

Juxtapose that with MitD, who’s character development has been going toward being helpful to the heroes in the end. I could totally see him being willing to help while redcloak is trying to hold the world ransom and negotiate. As a result he finds his bargaining power evaporate into nothingness and and we get some kinda lesson about hubris while the conclusion is going down.

There’s also the question of if the snarl rift spot welding will even happen. The world inside the snarl is almost certainly a four color world that formed from the snarl. We’ll probably still need four colors for something but I can’t be sure what.

[Darth Paul]

There’s also the question of if the snarl rift spot welding will even happen. The world inside the snarl is almost certainly a four color world that formed from the snarl. We’ll probably still need four colors for something but I can’t be sure what.

It's hard for me to imagine, after all the pages spent on it, Thor's plan coming to nothing- but I've very often been wrong before. But it almost certainly won't happen exactly as planned, either.

If the Snarl is intelligent, and aware of the world inside, could its lashing out be a primal attempt to protect that world? Instead of a villianous Macguffin, might it be a protagonist of some kind in the end? (Or at least be persuaded to make peace with the protagonists?)
PS- I'm sure this question isn't original with me, but I don't read enough of the forums to know how manytimes its been asked....

[Crusher]

Hi all. Long time lurker who always follows this thread with interest. Just had a random thought occur and wanted to throw it out there in case it's remotely helpful.

Saw some talk up thread that the thing about MitD eating Dwarfs being some sort of oblique reference to Red Dwarf. Someone else posted about the Polymorph episode, but I sincerely doubt there's anything much there.

However, as I'm sure many of you know, a ton of D&D monsters originated in the Fiend Factory articles in *White* Dwarf.

Seems a lot more plausible if this is some sort of clue, that it's pointing towards a monster that first showed up there. I know many things made it into the original Fiend Folio back in the day and are well known D&D creatures even now, but presumably a lot of stuff didn't.

Not sure if this is old news and somebody has combed over an archive of those old articles for candidates long ago, but figured I'd give it a mention. Apologies if this is redundant

Hmm, interesting. Looks like White Dwarf regularly put out D&D monsters up to #100 or so at which point they switched entirely to Warhammer and other stuff, though most of the stuff after #50 is either silly or popular book monster conversions. As you'd imagine Enworld has been on this, though only intermittently over the years. A bunch of them ended up in Field Folio but apparently a bunch didn't and there were quite a few monsters overall (maybe 250, ballpark).

[Carl]

Thematically, I think that the chances of the plot being resolved by the sudden re-emergence of the green divine quiddity, therefore sidelining the need to collaborate with RC and DO to be rather small.

Also, originally RL greek monsters do not require green quiddity to be formed - we have seen a medusa in the comic. And without the gods to pray to, even if somehow a green quiddity creature had survived (making it in fact the most real thing in the universe together iwth the snarl, since both would be 4-colour creatures) would still not help because what they need is green spellcasting, not just the creature itself.



In thread news, I was fixing a couple of typos in the OP (thank you, VanFanel!) and I went ahead and sketched the latest clue into 2a: diet. It is probably too early for it, but I can always edit it later if it turns out to lead somewhere.

GW

Theoretically if his species lives on the astral plane or some other such place normally they could have survived since way back when. I agree on the point about needing divine magic though.

On the template line of thinking. does anyone know the lore behind the Paragon Creature Template? Whilst i don't really have any good candidates to apply it to it's a perfect example of a template type that solves a lot of problems as it gives some solid defences and 15 extra attribute points across the board. That puts a lot of options that where previously dismissed because of low strength back into contention for example. No idea if the lore behind it makes sense and it's just an example honestly, ut one i figured i'd ask questions about.

[Jervis]

It's hard for me to imagine, after all the pages spent on it, Thor's plan coming to nothing- but I've very often been wrong before. But it almost certainly won't happen exactly as planned, either.

If the Snarl is intelligent, and aware of the world inside, could its lashing out be a primal attempt to protect that world? Instead of a villianous Macguffin, might it be a protagonist of some kind in the end? (Or at least be persuaded to make peace with the protagonists?)
PS- I'm sure this question isn't original with me, but I don't read enough of the forums to know how manytimes its been asked....

:elan: Keep in mind, plans said on panel never work.

[Crusher]

Theoretically if his species lives on the astral plane or some other such place normally they could have survived since way back when. I agree on the point about needing divine magic though.

On the template line of thinking. does anyone know the lore behind the Paragon Creature Template? Whilst i don't really have any good candidates to apply it to it's a perfect example of a template type that solves a lot of problems as it gives some solid defences and 15 extra attribute points across the board. That puts a lot of options that where previously dismissed because of low strength back into contention for example. No idea if the lore behind it makes sense and it's just an example honestly, ut one i figured i'd ask questions about.

My understanding is that a Paragon creature is a (the?) utterly perfect version of a particular type of creature. It is the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest, etc etc troll or orc or hydra or flumph or whatever. I've only ever seen it used once, in the mega dungeon Slumbering Tsar there's a (the?) paragon troll named Three-Fang. It only appears when certain events happen, which gives the party some warning its coming. And they better be ready, because its a buzzsaw.

Also, I've found a source for the Fiend Factory monsters and they are quite something. 1e so its hard to extrapolate, but its fun to see the original incarnations of old favorites like Githyanki and Hook Horrors. A decent number of them are intentionally ridiculous (like the Stair Stalker which is a monster obsessed with walking up and down stairs, and the Dahddy which is a mummy that's out wandering around because it stayed out too late carousing and got kicked out by the "Mummy" which was waiting up for it at the tomb. The Dahddy's facial bandages are slightly peeled back, revealing the black eye it apparently got the night before), but there are some potentially interesting ones like the Shadow Demon (which, iirc is immune to attacks from non-magical weapons and takes half damage from everything when its in complete darkness) and the Tacharanid which is... kind of wild.

Here are the ones I thought were interesting for various reasons:

Tacharanid: It involuntarily changes shape *every* time its hit by an attack, has a spell cast on it, or suffers "any other adverse action". Its shapes all have a consistent theme (which the DM picks and is encouraged to be creative with) so the various shapes should all be roughly the same size and body type (if its a quadruped to start, its shapes should all be more or less quadrupedal) and every time it changes shape it alternates between strong monsters and weak monsters. Its also got weird magic resistance in that it ALWAYS has a chance to save vs effects even ones that don't normally allow a save like Power Word: Death. Also, it can 100% heal itself once/day.

Since its monster theme is entirely up the DM, it has no stats, because they're whatever the DM thinks they should be based on what its theme will be. So, it might be a dragon themed one and starts as a Wyvern, and it gets hit and it turns into an Ancient Red Dragon, then gets hit again and turns into a Young White Dragon, then gets hit again and turns into something strong, etc. etc. I'm a little daunted trying to think how to even go about scoring this thing as a candidate but I'm sure you can see the possibilities.

Grey Sqaargs: Basically stone golems, but VERY hard to hit and their STR is always equal to the combined STR of everything on the other side of their current fight. In 3.5 a Heavy Warhorse has an 18 STR so, Windstriker + Miko is probably over 30.

Loculi - Hmm. This might actually be something. So, Loculi are a race of semi-humanoid reptile monsters with an age power-progression chart just like dragons. They don't look crazy-weird but they aren't something you see every day, kind of like a cross between a lizard man and an armadillo. They have 6 legs, a pair of useable arms and a heavy, bony ankylosaurus-like tail. Their back and limbs are heavily armor plated which get tougher as they get older, their young are pretty fragile but they get sturdier as they get older, really old ones can use magic and psionic abilities and, the piece de resistance: they'll eat just about anything but they particularly enjoy eating gnome and dwarf meat (they get along fine with elves and humans, but they hate dwarves and gnomes).

Ok, so, babies are 6" tall while freakishly ancient ones are 10' tall, but I'm going to focus on just regular, run-of-the-mill ancient ones (a d100 roll of "99" rather than "100"). A 511-800 year old Loculi is 7' 4" tall, the armored parts are AC1 (roughly equal to platemail plus a shield), its got 9d8+8 hp (which is in the ballpark of an adult or even old red dragon in 1E AD&D, the version when the Loculi was introduced), the only stat they list is INT (14, which isn't bad. There are deities with 18s and below for stats) but its tail-smash hits for 2d12+2 and its bite hits for 2d10 which is nearly ancient dragon territory so its probably extremely strong. They have a range of psionic and magic-user/illusionist spells though nothing is analogous to Teleport or Wish. I might actually do a proper presentation of it later.

Sodger O Caber - An unusually tall, green, buff, good-looking elf made out of wood (its living, basically Fey). Lots of health and very hard to hit, and when in serious trouble can teleport itself (along with its mount and anything on the mount) back to Pine Island (which in theory might be the abandoned elven island. Actually, that works with their fluff better than I initially thought). Really excellent stats across the board but not strong enough, even translating from 1E.

[Jervis]

Grey Sqaargs: Basically stone golems, but VERY hard to hit and their STR is always equal to the combined STR of everything on the other side of their current fight. In 3.5 a Heavy Warhorse has an 18 STR so, Windstriker + Miko is probably over 30.

Loculi - Hmm. This might actually be something. So, Loculi are a race of semi-humanoid reptile monsters with an age power-progression chart just like dragons. They don't look crazy-weird but they aren't something you see every day, kind of like a cross between a lizard man and an armadillo. They have 6 legs, a pair of useable arms and a heavy, bony ankylosaurus-like tail. Their back and limbs are heavily armor plated which get tougher as they get older, their young are pretty fragile but they get sturdier as they get older, really old ones can use magic and psionic abilities and, the piece de resistance: they'll eat just about anything but they particularly enjoy eating gnome and dwarf meat (they get along fine with elves and humans, but they hate dwarves and gnomes).

Ok, so, babies are 6" tall while freakishly ancient ones are 10' tall, but I'm going to focus on just regular, run-of-the-mill ancient ones (a d100 roll of "99" rather than "100"). A 511-800 year old Loculi is 7' 4" tall, the armored parts are AC1 (roughly equal to platemail plus a shield), its got 9d8+8 hp (which is in the ballpark of an adult or even old red dragon in 1E AD&D, the version when the Loculi was introduced), the only stat they list is INT (14, which isn't bad. There are deities with 18s and below for stats) but its tail-smash hits for 2d12+2 and its bite hits for 2d10 which is nearly ancient dragon territory so its probably extremely strong. They have a range of psionic and magic-user/illusionist spells though nothing is analogous to Teleport or Wish. I might actually do a proper presentation of it later.

Could a Sqaarg count everyone in the city as an enemy, thus getting near arbitrary strength when the earthquake scene came up?

[Crusher]

Ok, its been a while so I'll probably forget some stuff, but I present for your consideration the Loculi.

The overview is basically what I just said in the post before this one. Kind of weird-looking lizard people that get more powerful as they get older. AFAIK they were only ever stat-ed in 1E AD&D so this will be a bit of an adventure. Specifically, we're looking at a 511-800 year old Ancient one (a roll of a 99 out of 100).

Escape Scene - None, off to a bad start. However, this is AD&D 1E. The entire list of monsters in the Monster Manual that can Teleport are the powerful Demons and Devils. That's it. Nothing else can. They have a bunch of psionic abilities, can cast like a 5th level Magic User/Illusionist, and Ancient Ones can use, and typically have, scrolls, potions and other magic items. That's normally a cop-out, but the monster write-up specifically gives an ancient one a 60% chance of having 1-4 scrolls, a 50% chance of 2-5 potions, and a 25% chance of having another magic item on them so they might have something up their sleeve. Finally, most monsters got a power upgrade from 1E to 2E and a much bigger one going to 3E. So... maybe?

Tower Scene - Its got the HP of an Old Blue Dragon or Adult Red Dragon (roughly) and a better AC than any chromatic dragon except Red (I suspect Blues were supposed to be AC 1, but they're AC 2). Punches about as hard as a 1E Stone Giant and that's not even its good attack. It bites like a Green Dragon and its tail-smash is in the ballpark of a Red Dragon's bite. Looking at the 3.5E of these various monsters, we're looking at stuff with STR scores ranging from 27-33 so its in the ballpark of the bottom of the potential scale (that's understating things slightly. The Stone Giant is 27, *everything* else is a 33). Its tough, but is it tough enough to simply laugh off a round of attacks from Miko or Belkar? Maybe? Depends on how it would scale into 3.5E. However, they love heat, are immune to fire damage, and actually regenerate from taking fire damage. If it was standing on a campfire while the attacks happened, then maybe.

Circus Scene - Yeah, its actually pretty weird looking. Big spiky tail, armored body, six legs, fairly conventional lizard person head and arms mounted on the front of it (they don't walk upright). It actually looks very slightly like a Xenocrysth. You wouldn't confuse the two, but it wouldn't be a shock if they were related (they're not, afaik). But Loculi aren't "monsters" per se. They're Lawful Neutral decently intelligent social creatures that are friendly with elves and halflings, often trading with them, and they tolerate humans and half-orcs, so it might be tough to have a bunch of theoretically friendly creatures point and laugh at them.

Not an impossible category - Its not stated what their monster type is (that wasn't a thing in 1E, I guess). I'd guess magical beast, but humanoid is at least possible. It needs to eat (mostly. See below), sleep, etc.

Around before strip #100? - Published December 1982

Size/Strength requirement - Its an octoped (Probably. I just noticed the picture shows it having 6 legs plus 2 arms, but the fluff says it only has 4 legs plus 2 arms) so it probably counts as Large but its certainly not Huge and it *probably* has a STR of 30 or higher.

Vulnerable to Mind Control - Yes, it is.

Pros:
- Dwarf meat is a delicacy for it.
- I intentionally didn't pick its biggest and strongest size category so it could indeed get bigger.
- It needs to eat (and it'll eat almost anything) and sleep, but if it gets enough heat it can cut back on its eating and in extreme conditions can stop eating and drinking entirely.
- Little immature ones are pretty stupid (INT 7) but Ancient ones get pretty smart (14-16 INT)
- 1E was easily the lowest power version of AD&D so its power level would scale up a lot going to 3.5E. A Very Old Blue Dragon (roughly comparable power-wise in 1E) in 3.5E is AC 37 with DR15/magic (which probably isn't adequate but isn't far off).
- The age category I'm talking about could heal itself via Psionics and its a least arguable that some Loculi could have Psionic Teleport. This is kind of maddening, because Psionic Teleport is on the overall list of abilities they could have, and it *should* be on the list of abilities they do have (because they're considered Magic Users/Illusionists and that's the only group that can get Psionic Teleport) but its not there. Grand Matrons can get it, but they're only female (I assume).
- Typical communication for this age category is via "semi-telepathic empathy" using no actual sound, though younger ones do talk and most understand Common.
- Their bodies are a little odd so they aren't super flexible and are a little clumsy.

Cons:
- Translating everything from 1E is kind of a mess so there's huge error ranges around all of this.

[Crusher]

Could a Sqaarg count everyone in the city as an enemy, thus getting near arbitrary strength when the earthquake scene came up?

Good news and bad news. The good news is that it gets the STR of *everyone* on the other side, and it specifically includes people who are fighting at range and haven't hit it yet. The bad news is its STR caps at 40. Though that's 40 in *1E* which is pretty freaking gigantic. A Pit Fiend is 18/00 and a Hill Giant is 19.

[Squire Doodad]

Ok, its been a while so I'll probably forget some stuff, but I present for your consideration the Loculi.

So what I'm hearing is, while the actual 1E version is not feasible due to Dorukan's amulet as well as major rounding errors, it is not impossible that a hypothetical official 3e version could have the stats given its power relative to other monsters of its time, and while teleporting monsters aren't really a thing in 1E, its Psionic powers mean that it could plausibly have Psionic teleport.
If anyone happens to find a powerful 3e edition of it, send it here, it sounds like an interesting candidate. Very long list of "well, I'm pretty sure" though.

[Crusher]

So what I'm hearing is, while the actual 1E version is not feasible due to Dorukan's amulet as well as major rounding errors, it is not impossible that a hypothetical official 3e version could have the stats given its power relative to other monsters of its time, and while teleporting monsters aren't really a thing in 1E, its Psionic powers mean that it could plausibly have Psionic teleport.
If anyone happens to find a powerful 3e edition of it, send it here, it sounds like an interesting candidate. Very long list of "well, I'm pretty sure" though.

Yeah, that’s about right. I was kind of impressed a 1E monster did as well as this, all things considered. A Grand Matron one is tougher and stronger and better but it presumably has to be female and also then there isn’t a bigger version for it to grow into.

The real problem, mechanically, is the AC. Even if we downpower Miko to level 10, say, and give her a +1 sword, she’s going to hit AC 1 often enough and hard enough (even though she’ll have fewer attacks) that the MitD wouldn’t just ignore it. He could heal the damage back, but it’s be more than he’d casually shrug off.

[yokyok]

I'm surprised that at this point people are still seriously considering monsters from monster books and building cases for them primarily based on the fact that it doesn't contradict the major scenes has fewer cons than the others that the MitD thread defines as plausible.

Most of these, if true, seem to me the equivalent of what the author said he wouldn't do: "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!"

The OOTS comic is especially good with foreshadowing. All important reveals - even unimportant ones, even throwaway jokes - have been foreshadowed, very satisfactorily. This rules out all options for which there is no foreshadowing. The MitD being a protean,1 for instance, is not only improbable, it is impossible. It defies all narrative sense.

I think the only possible answer to the MitD question has to come from the comic, not from obscure monster books. Suggestions like an eastern god, or a Snarl-like entity (which I personally favor), would at least make sense. Minor objections to them can be handwaved; a total blank on information about the MitD's species until the big reveal cannot.

1 This (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977-MITD-Sweet-XVI-and-Never-Been-Guessed/page2&p=25497354#post25497354) parallel, by the way, only weakens that case, I think - it's a reminder that following your heart is not defined by your species type. You don't need to be a protean to follow your heart. Durkon might disagree.

[Chris Mass]

Well, I'm happy my random vague suggestion turned up some interesting info. Honestly I was thinking less along the lines of "is there some weird hyper obscure old monster nobody has found yet?" and more "did any of the popular guesses originate in an old White Dwarf article?", but having a cursory dig myself it doesn't look like it.

On the extremely small chance it does turn out to be a Loculi though, I will be extremely chuffed.

[ETA] oh, actually, there sort of is a candidate that originated there. The Slaad first appeared in Fiend Factory (as submitted by future sci-fi novelist Charles Stross), and whilst the fact we've seen Slaad portrayed in the strip already which is a big point against them, I do have some love for the idea MitD could be a Black Slaad. If only because it coming out of the darkness just to be a big shadowy blob would be pretty funny.

That said, IIRC Black Slaad are about as powerful as a Slaad can get short of becoming a Slaad Lord, so there's a lot there that doesn't really fit very well. Not one I'd want to stake my life on.

[Chronos]

I think that the biggest argument against Protean is that it's not falsifiable. No matter what we see, anything could be a Protean. The mamma black dragon could be a Protean. Redcloak's niece could be a Protean. Roy could be a Protean. There will never come a time, even when he's finally revealed, when we can say "Ooh, yeah, that's definitely not a Protean". Which makes it a very unsatisfying solution to the puzzle.

[Peelee]

I think that the biggest argument against Protean is that it's not falsifiable. No matter what we see, anything could be a Protean. The mamma black dragon could be a Protean. Redcloak's niece could be a Protean. Roy could be a Protean.

That's not how proteans work.

[Schroeswald]

We’ll be able to tell when it’s a protean if it looks a boiling mound of flesh and tentacles shifting every panel.

[Peelee]

We’ll be able to tell when it’s a protean if it looks a boiling mound of flesh and tentacles shifting every panel.

Indeed.

We can state with absolute certainty that none of the creatures out of the shadows have been a Protean. It is very falsifiable.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm surprised that at this point people are still seriously considering monsters from monster books and building cases for them primarily based on the fact that it doesn't contradict the major scenes has fewer cons than the others that the MitD thread defines as plausible.

Most of these, if true, seem to me the equivalent of what the author said he wouldn't do: "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!"

The OOTS comic is especially good with foreshadowing. All important reveals - even unimportant ones, even throwaway jokes - have been foreshadowed, very satisfactorily. This rules out all options for which there is no foreshadowing. The MitD being a protean,1 for instance, is not only improbable, it is impossible. It defies all narrative sense.

I think the only possible answer to the MitD question has to come from the comic, not from obscure monster books. Suggestions like an eastern god, or a Snarl-like entity (which I personally favor), would at least make sense. Minor objections to them can be handwaved; a total blank on information about the MitD's species until the big reveal cannot.

1 This (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977-MITD-Sweet-XVI-and-Never-Been-Guessed/page2&p=25497354#post25497354) parallel, by the way, only weakens that case, I think - it's a reminder that following your heart is not defined by your species type. You don't need to be a protean to follow your heart. Durkon might disagree.

I don't agree that MitD's identity needs to be foreshadowed, because his identity is not narratively relevant. MitD's character arc is about him learning to be his own person and think and act for himself; it doesn't actually matter to the story what kind of creature he is. It would be entirely possible for the Giant to satisfactorily conclude the story without ever revealing what MitD is. The guessing game about MitD's species is not part of the story, and so a lack of foreshadowing can't rule out a suggestion.

[yokyok]

I don't agree that MitD's identity needs to be foreshadowed, because his identity is not narratively relevant. MitD's character arc is about him learning to be his own person and think and act for himself; it doesn't actually matter to the story what kind of creature he is. It would be entirely possible for the Giant to satisfactorily conclude the story without ever revealing what MitD is. The guessing game about MitD's species is not part of the story, and so a lack of foreshadowing can't rule out a suggestion.

But it is narratively relevant. Leaving aside the MitD's own desire to step out of the shadows, O-Chul is shown actively researching its identity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (at least that's what I think he's doing there), and he has formed a theory (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) that is so unbelievable that he thinks Lien and MitD himself wouldn't believe it. (If a Snarl-like identity for MitD is correct, possibly O-Chul's reticence about revealing his theory is due to his Sapphire Guard oath to keep secret everything related to the Snarl.)

I agree the MitD would be a fascinating character even without the mystery surrounding him, but the mystery is very much a part of the story.

[Peelee]

But it is narratively relevant. Leaving aside the MitD's own desire to step out of the shadows, O-Chul is shown actively researching its identity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (at least that's what I think he's doing there), and he has formed a theory (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) that is so unbelievable that he thinks Lien and MitD himself wouldn't believe it. (If a Snarl-like identity for MitD is correct, possibly O-Chul's reticence about revealing his theory is due to his Sapphire Guard oath to keep secret everything related to the Snarl.)

I agree the MitD would be a fascinating character even without the mystery surrounding him, but the mystery is very much a part of the story.

I agree with all of this. Which is interesting because I disagreed with all of your previous post.

[catagent101]

I'm surprised that at this point people are still seriously considering monsters from monster books and building cases for them primarily based on the fact that it doesn't contradict the major scenes has fewer cons than the others that the MitD thread defines as plausible.

Most of these, if true, seem to me the equivalent of what the author said he wouldn't do: "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!"

The OOTS comic is especially good with foreshadowing. All important reveals - even unimportant ones, even throwaway jokes - have been foreshadowed, very satisfactorily. This rules out all options for which there is no foreshadowing. The MitD being a protean,1 for instance, is not only improbable, it is impossible. It defies all narrative sense.

I think the only possible answer to the MitD question has to come from the comic, not from obscure monster books. Suggestions like an eastern god, or a Snarl-like entity (which I personally favor), would at least make sense. Minor objections to them can be handwaved; a total blank on information about the MitD's species until the big reveal cannot.

1 This (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977-MITD-Sweet-XVI-and-Never-Been-Guessed/page2&p=25497354#post25497354) parallel, by the way, only weakens that case, I think - it's a reminder that following your heart is not defined by your species type. You don't need to be a protean to follow your heart. Durkon might disagree.

Wouldn't the various clues we've gotten about MitD's identity count as foreshadowing though?

Or are you thinking something more along the lines of Knox's 1st commandment of mystery writing ("the criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story"), and think that pulling a monster out of the MM would be unfair in that respect?

[hroþila]

I used to think his species wouldn't matter beyond the out-of-universe guessing game, i.e. that the reveal would be climactic only because of the way it would happen and for the plot relevance of his character development, and that his species wouldn't play any narrative role. But what yokyok said (especially about O-Chul's words) makes all the sense in the world to me. As a non-D&D player, I don't think any of the D&D monsters that are a semi-decent fit is iconic enough for his species to actually matter during the reveal, so I guess that means I don't believe it's going to be a D&D monster at all. Not that any non-D&D monsters proposed so far seem to fit the bill all that well, though.

Like, I guess O-Chul's words could still be setting it up as something more important than a mere guessing game for the hardcore D&D audience, but at the same time, The Giant has spent many years very consciously steering away from hardcore D&D plot elements (I mean, hardcore D&D easter eggs and jokes are still fine, central plot elements not so much). But I dunno.

[Carl]

My understanding is that a Paragon creature is a (the?) utterly perfect version of a particular type of creature. It is the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest, etc etc troll or orc or hydra or flumph or whatever. I've only ever seen it used once, in the mega dungeon Slumbering Tsar there's a (the?) paragon troll named Three-Fang. It only appears when certain events happen, which gives the party some warning its coming. And they better be ready, because its a buzzsaw.

Cheers, so certainly possibble with the MITD as there doesn't seem to be any attached issues. Though i still don't have a specific combo in mind. TBH i think a template that solves the escape scene and other magic hints is more likely. MitD is supposed to be big and scary and Xykon never connected the MitD to the escape despite clearly having at least a vague idea of what he is. Also the Magic stuff not being innate provides another possibble explanation to him being separated from his parents.

[Peelee]

I used to think his species wouldn't matter beyond the out-of-universe guessing game, i.e. that the reveal would be climactic only because of the way it would happen and for the plot relevance of his character development, and that his species wouldn't play any narrative role. But what yokyok said (especially about O-Chul's words) makes all the sense in the world to me. As a non-D&D player, I don't think any of the D&D monsters that are a semi-decent fit is iconic enough for his species to actually matter during the reveal, so I guess that means I don't believe it's going to be a D&D monster at all. Not that any non-D&D monsters proposed so far seem to fit the bill all that well, though.

Like, I guess O-Chul's words could still be setting it up as something more important than a mere guessing game for the hardcore D&D audience, but at the same time, The Giant has spent many years very consciously steering away from hardcore D&D plot elements (I mean, hardcore D&D easter eggs and jokes are still fine, central plot elements not so much). But I dunno.

Here's the thing about that though.

1.) The monster was decided early on in the strip when it was still very D&D heavy.
B.) If it was iconic enough for whatever, it would have been guessed long, long ago. It is probably not "iconic".
iii.) Non-D&D creatures have been proposed. Nothing and nobody prevents anyone from proposing them. The problem is that it's not terribly common for non-D&D creatures to actually be a strong contender. For every time I see people claim that we should look at non-D&D creatures, I see someone who is not putting for any actual suggestions for a non-D&D creature. I, for one, welcome any and all suggestions regardless of their relation to D&D. It's just that such suggestions that come even remotely close to fitting are few and far between. And, I have to note, on this specific subset of this topic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488)...:smallamused:

[hroþila]

Here's the thing about that though.

1.) The monster was decided early on in the strip when it was still very D&D heavy.
B.) If it was iconic enough for whatever, it would have been guessed long, long ago. It is probably not "iconic".
iii.) Non-D&D creatures have been proposed. Nothing and nobody prevents anyone from proposing them. The problem is that it's not terribly common for non-D&D creatures to actually be a strong contender. For every time I see people claim that we should look at non-D&D creatures, I see someone who is not putting for any actual suggestions for a non-D&D creature. I, for one, welcome any and all suggestions regardless of their relation to D&D. It's just that such suggestions that come even remotely close to fitting are few and far between. And, I have to note, on this specific subset of this topic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488)...:smallamused:
α.) Sure, but while The Giant probably couldn't change what the MitD is without contradicting a bunch of earlier hints, he could go all "you know what, the species itself doesn't need to be important for the reveal, I can just make it 100% character-driven and leave the guessing game as just that, a game with no narrative significance".
۲.) "More recognizable than some obscure D&D monster" is a distinct possibility though.
ג.) This is kinda redundant isn't it? I did say myself that no non-D&D proposal so far seemed to be a very good fit anyway, but also, the point of my rambling was not "you should focus on non-D&D monsters y'all, don't shut down the discussion of non-D&D monsters, you fascists", but rather "that's an interesting conversation about whether or not the species itself will be an important part of the reveal, here's my thoughts on it".
iiii.) as for your proposal, still genius

[Peelee]

α.) Sure, but while The Giant probably couldn't change what the MitD is without contradicting a bunch of earlier hints, he could go all "you know what, the species itself doesn't need to be important for the reveal, I can just make it 100% character-driven and leave the guessing game as just that, a game with no narrative significance".
۲.) "More recognizable than some obscure D&D monster" is a distinct possibility though.
ג.) This is kinda redundant isn't it? I did say myself that no non-D&D proposal so far seemed to be a very good fit anyway, but also, the point of my rambling was not "you should focus on non-D&D monsters y'all, don't shut down the discussion of non-D&D monsters, you fascists", but rather "that's an interesting conversation about whether or not the species itself will be an important part of the reveal, here's my thoughts on it".

The latter two I think we agree on without issue. For the first, though, sure, that's possible, but I have no reason to suspect he changed what the monster is, and think it's not a coincidence that he decided on what it actually was when he mapped out the plot.

And thank you, I'm blushing. :smallwink:

[Crusher]

I used to think his species wouldn't matter beyond the out-of-universe guessing game, i.e. that the reveal would be climactic only because of the way it would happen and for the plot relevance of his character development, and that his species wouldn't play any narrative role. But what yokyok said (especially about O-Chul's words) makes all the sense in the world to me. As a non-D&D player, I don't think any of the D&D monsters that are a semi-decent fit is iconic enough for his species to actually matter during the reveal, so I guess that means I don't believe it's going to be a D&D monster at all. Not that any non-D&D monsters proposed so far seem to fit the bill all that well, though.

Like, I guess O-Chul's words could still be setting it up as something more important than a mere guessing game for the hardcore D&D audience, but at the same time, The Giant has spent many years very consciously steering away from hardcore D&D plot elements (I mean, hardcore D&D easter eggs and jokes are still fine, central plot elements not so much). But I dunno.

Something I think that gets missed re: foreshadowing for MitD’s race is that *the story isn’t done yet*. I suspect when the reveal gets closer (and while the reveal is probably close in terms of OotS days, I don’t think it’s very close in terms of strips, it’s just closer than it was) we’ll get more and more foreshadowing. So right now, I doubt there’s a single monster the denizens of this thread would see in the strip and say “oh, obviously from the clues it was an X” (other than maybe Protean), much less the average reader. But as we get closer I’m pretty confident there will be more and more foreshadowing. When the reveal actually happens, I trust the Giant as a storyteller enough that I feel confident that we’ll all go “Oh, yes, of COURSE!” And it’ll be clearly tied into the plot in a way that isn’t obvious now because he hasn’t done the foreshadowing yet.

[WanderingMist]

Has anyone suggested a Cildabrin yet? My brain went to arachnids for things that could normally be considered disgusting.

They're horrifying spider-scorpion monsters which are normally incapable of true speech that typically live in deep, dark caves whose preferred meal is dwarves. Its natural spell-like abilities are darkness, silence, and spike stones, but since the monster is cloaked in magical darkness by Xykon rather than by his own power, perhaps darkness could have been swapped out for a teleport-like spell to explain escape.

AC: 19 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +7 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Hit Dice: 11d8+55 (104 hp)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +7

Abilities: Str 24, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 13

Not a DnD expert so no clue if these would be considered "good" defenses.

Comes in two sizes as well to explain the difference in size between it and its father:
Advancement: 12-21 HD (Large); 22-33 HD (Huge)

Also may be an artificially-created race, so his father might not even be the same species, just something that created him.

Getting my info from these two sources:

https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Cildabrin

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Cildabrin

[Ruck]

My position is pretty simple. I've found the Protean to be by a significant margin the best fit for the MitD, and I've explained why at length. I'm open to hearing new ideas if someone finds a genuinely good fit. I'm open to responding to arguments or evidence against the Protean or against the ideas I've laid out as to why I think that's the answer.

But I don't put too much stock in people simply asserting it's a bad fit without argument or evidence. Or people declaring it doesn't "feel right" to them for some reason that has nothing to do with the criteria we know ("it's too powerful," "it's not iconic / instantly recognizable enough," "it will be obvious when we figure it out so we must not have figured it out yet," etc.). Or people outright misrepresenting what it can do (the repeated cases of people insisting it's a complete shapeshifter that can do anything, for example).

Woke up this morning to discover new posts that covered the entirety of the second paragraph here.

[Yendor]

α.) Sure, but while The Giant probably couldn't change what the MitD is without contradicting a bunch of earlier hints, he could go all "you know what, the species itself doesn't need to be important for the reveal, I can just make it 100% character-driven and leave the guessing game as just that, a game with no narrative significance".

From one of the Patreon answer posts: (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-may-39917949)


No, because if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.

[silversaraph]

I don't know if I've ever officially voted other than Snorlax, but I'll go for baby or young nightmare beast.

[silversaraph]

Has anyone suggested a Cildabrin yet? My brain went to arachnids for things that could normally be considered disgusting.

They're horrifying spider-scorpion monsters which are normally incapable of true speech that typically live in deep, dark caves whose preferred meal is dwarves. Its natural spell-like abilities are darkness, silence, and spike stones, but since the monster is cloaked in magical darkness by Xykon rather than by his own power, perhaps darkness could have been swapped out for a teleport-like spell to explain escape.

AC: 19 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +7 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Hit Dice: 11d8+55 (104 hp)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +7

Abilities: Str 24, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 13

Not a DnD expert so no clue if these would be considered "good" defenses.

Comes in two sizes as well to explain the difference in size between it and its father:
Advancement: 12-21 HD (Large); 22-33 HD (Huge)

Just from experience owning disgusting tarantula they do stop eating when they are about to molt/grow/change into adult. To me that feature could easily be used as a clue for many guesses though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Cildabrin

Based exclusively on what you’ve posted (I.e. haven’t done any research of my own) it’s defenses are too weak, as is it’s strength. And I’ve never bought this idea that Rich would just give it powers it lacks. What’d be the point of it? He knew he needed a creature that could teleport V out of trouble, he had near infinite choices, why pick one without teleport when he could pick one that did?

Grey Wolf

[yokyok]

Wouldn't the various clues we've gotten about MitD's identity count as foreshadowing though?

Or are you thinking something more along the lines of Knox's 1st commandment of mystery writing ("the criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story"), and think that pulling a monster out of the MM would be unfair in that respect?

I was thinking more in terms of the comic's writing style, not as a universal rule for guessing games. For example: First we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon. Then we learn Malack is a vampire. Then Durkon becomes a vampire. Then (the punchline): Durkon* worships Hel. I'm expecting that the MitD's reveal will put together facts from the comic in a logical way. If MitD is a protean, the structure would be: MitD has X property, protean has X property, MitD is protean. If the second part is available in a MM but not in the comic itself, the reader of only the comic doesn't get the satisfaction.

Since I already started hinting at guesses, I might as well write up my current pet theory. I'm not sure how much of this has been brought up already (I haven't read most of the discussion threads), but here are some points in favor of a MitD related to the Snarl:


O-Chul seems to have recognized what the MitD actually is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html). As the person who knows the MitD best, he is probably right about it, too, whatever his guess is. So he has to have the information necessary to know. He may have learned about any number of monsters in his research, so this can't absolutely rule out any one option, but one entity that we know he knows about is the Snarl, since it's part of the Sapphire Guard secret lore.

The Snarl is literally the threat that the Sapphire Guard is defending against. All Sapphire Guard actions were ultimately for the purpose of defending against the Snarl. But if the MitD is a Snarl, and the MitD is not actually the evil threat he was believed to be, then neither is the Snarl - the whole purpose of the Sapphire Guard was moot. Who better than O-Chul to realize that the bad guy was not bad after all (as in his friendship with MitD and his prequel)?

Accepting that MitD is a kind of Snarl ("Snarl Jr.") probably means that there are multiple Snarls, because the MitD remembers a dad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html). Either generated by another Snarl in the rift, or in the same way as the previous Snarl, by an argument, such as that between the Dark One and Thor (which would be pretty cool - the MitD would literally be the incarnation of the goblins' and other races' grievances against each other; there's another argument in Start of Darkness; note MitD's first appearance postdates both). But what the Snarl actually is is in doubt, as at least V and Belkar realize. The secret lore can't explain the planet and the sea in the rifts, which even Thor doesn't know about (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html). It seems only the fiends (and Tiamat) know more than everyone else. All we know is that the Snarl is not going to turn out to be what we thought it is, probably less sinister than originally portrayed.

The first post of the thread, discussing the Snarl Jr. idea, dismisses it because of Rich Burlew's statement "it isn't something I just made up for the story." Admittedly, by this theory, he could have been more precise. But he did also say within the same breath "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one," and he may have just meant that it wasn't made up for what the MitD is, without any existence outside of its role as MitD.

Some more parallels and miscellaneous theories:

Both are caged in the dark. The gods were able to trap the Snarl because it is "a thing born of chaos (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)" and doesn't understand the order surrounding it, which is in fact its cage. Neither does the MitD seem to notice the gate (the Snarl's captivity) or even the fact that it itself is in captivity, apart from not liking the dark. He thinks Xykon is a guy he hangs out with. What if the Snarl is like that too?

Compare the shape of the MitD's eyes on its first appearance (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) with the Snarl's eyes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html). (The strip is pre-100 but the parallel is post-100).

Both are horrible: MitD is described so in the circus, the Snarl destroys things. And beautiful: MitD in the circus, the rift to Blackwing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html).

Miko and Belkar can't do it any damage at all. Miko thinks this is damage resistance. But could it be because his multiple quiddities make him untouchable to mortals (and gods)?

Teleporting V and O-Chul is easy. Gods have that power and give it to clerics. A Snarl would have that power without all the god rules preventing him from using it.

[Peelee]

pFirst we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon.

When did we learn that about Hel?

[hamishspence]

I was thinking more in terms of the comic's writing style, not as a universal rule for guessing games. For example: First we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon. Then we learn Malack is a vampire. Then Durkon becomes a vampire. Then (the punchline): Durkon* worships Hel. I'm expecting that the MitD's reveal will put together facts from the comic in a logical way. If MitD is a protean, the structure would be: MitD has X property, protean has X property, MitD is protean. If the second part is available in a MM but not in the comic itself, the reader of only the comic doesn't get the satisfaction.


When did we learn that about Hel?

Death, not Destruction, is the role that they both share:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

[Peelee]

Teleporting V and O-Chul is easy. Gods have that power and give it to clerics.

Clerics can't cast teleport unless they get it thorough a specific domain.

[InvisibleBison]

Even if we accept that MitD's species needs to be foreshadowed (which is becoming more and more plausible the more I think about it), I don't think our inability to identify that foreshadowing necessarily means anything. After all, good foreshadowing is often only apparent in retrospect. Take, for instance, this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) - knowing what we do about subsequent events, it's clearly setting up Hel's scheme at the Godsmoot, but who would have been able to figure that out when it was first published? I expect something similar is happening with MitD - once his species is revealed, we'll recognize that various things we didn't even realize were meaningful were actually hints as to his identity.



a MitD related to the Snarl

It seems to me that "Snarl Jr." is the archetypal example of something the Giant made up for the story.

[Jaziggy]

Ok, its been a while so I'll probably forget some stuff, but I present for your consideration the Loculi.



Kind love this idea. Feels very Rich Burlew. We've got one of the oldest dogs of D&D sitting at his computer screen thinking 'man, what am I gonna make this thing that will be interesting'. I could see him going for a deep cut boss-level 1E monster. It's hugely flexible because it has to get scaled up to 3.5, but broadly it has psionic powers, a high level, lots of physical strength, is definitely gross. And then this dwarf thing...

I'm going to chew on it but I like this idea a lot.

[yokyok]

When did we learn that about Hel?

I misspoke, substitute death for destruction, as hamishspence noted.


Clerics can't cast teleport unless they get it thorough a specific domain.

Or miracle.


Even if we accept that MitD's species needs to be foreshadowed (which is becoming more and more plausible the more I think about it), I don't think our inability to identify that foreshadowing necessarily means anything. After all, good foreshadowing is often only apparent in retrospect. Take, for instance, this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) - knowing what we do about subsequent events, it's clearly setting up Hel's scheme at the Godsmoot, but who would have been able to figure that out when it was first published? I expect something similar is happening with MitD - once his species is revealed, we'll recognize that various things we didn't even realize were meaningful were actually hints as to his identity.

Indeed, but in my opinion this is still the key, the method that makes it "possible to guess" as Rich Burlew said it was.


It seems to me that "Snarl Jr." is the archetypal example of something the Giant made up for the story.

It's not my theory's highest point but it depends on how likely you think my interpretation of the statement is and how much weight you put on the "blurred line" comment.

[hroþila]

It's not my theory's highest point but it depends on how likely you think my interpretation of the statement is and how much weight you put on the "blurred line" comment.
I must admit I don't really understand the logic behind your interpretation of that line. Could you elaborate?

Teleporting V and O-Chul is easy. Gods have that power and give it to clerics. A Snarl would have that power without all the god rules preventing him from using it.
Why would the Snarl have that power?

[halfeye]

I'm not sure how much of this has been brought up already (I haven't read most of the discussion threads), but here are some points in favor of a MitD related to the Snarl:

This comic shows the snarl still as non-communicative and destructive as ever:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html

[OvisCaedo]

Out of curiosity, what exactly did the hunters say about the MitD when they encountered him? Some posts I've seen seemed like they suggested they knew what he was exactly, others just as something clearly rare.

[Fyraltari]

Out of curiosity, what exactly did the hunters say about the MitD when they encountered him? Some posts I've seen seemed like they suggested they knew what he was exactly, others just as something clearly rare.

Jenkins: Succes!
Not-Jenkins: Yes, looks like we bagged it. Good work, Jenkins.
MitD: Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn't seem to be a latch on the inside.
Not-Jenkins: My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!
Jenkins: Unbelievable!
MitD: Um, yeah, I can speak. So about this box...
Not-Jenkins: Well that will surely fetch a fine price.
Jenkins: Indeed!
MitD: OK, I know you can hear me, so... I'd really like to discuss the box situation.
Not-Jenkins: I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world.
Jenkins: Quite!
MitD: Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, "please" and "thank you." And "sorry about the smell."
Not-Jenkins: Once-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins! We'll be the talk of the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters lodge for weeks!
Jenkins: Smashing!
MitD: Stop ignoring me!
Not-Jenkins: A find like this might even be enough to pay the witch to remove the horrible curse that forces you to speak only in one-word exclamations.
Jenkins: Finally!
MitD: Ok, how about we bargain? You let me out of here, and I'll... uh... braid your mustaches?
Not-Jenkins: Tell Marlow to bring the boat around, we'll load it into the cargo hold.
Jenkins: Immediately!


Not that while they don't look inside the box, it looks like they baited him specifically, which means they might have gotten a good look at him, if only from a distance, before.

[ReaderAt2046]

I was thinking more in terms of the comic's writing style, not as a universal rule for guessing games. For example: First we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon. Then we learn Malack is a vampire. Then Durkon becomes a vampire. Then (the punchline): Durkon* worships Hel. I'm expecting that the MitD's reveal will put together facts from the comic in a logical way. If MitD is a protean, the structure would be: MitD has X property, protean has X property, MitD is protean. If the second part is available in a MM but not in the comic itself, the reader of only the comic doesn't get the satisfaction.


IMO, that's actually one of the advantages of the protean. When the time does come for the MITD to reveal itself, the basic idea of what a Protean is and how its abilities work can be conveyed simply by showing the MITD unmasked for two or three panels, which is not really true of any other FBS creature.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was thinking more in terms of the comic's writing style, not as a universal rule for guessing games. For example: First we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon. Then we learn Malack is a vampire. Then Durkon becomes a vampire. Then (the punchline): Durkon* worships Hel. I'm expecting that the MitD's reveal will put together facts from the comic in a logical way. If MitD is a protean, the structure would be: MitD has X property, protean has X property, MitD is protean. If the second part is available in a MM but not in the comic itself, the reader of only the comic doesn't get the satisfaction.

And how much satisfaction did this hypothetical reader get from the fact that Malack's species was a yuan-ti*? And why would you assume that MitD's species needs to be more "satisfactory" than Malack's? As opposed to the satisfaction being derived from the completion of MitD's personal journey of self-discovery?

Readers of this comic regularly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1245.html) encounter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1247.html) creatures (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1248.html) they have no means of naming or understanding without access to the MM. "Yet another D&D species no-one knows" is the comic's writing style. MitD need not be any different, so long as the comic establishes what it can do. Which it has been doing over an over, in what we call "clues" and to the regulr reader is just "MitD's species abilities".

And of course, as other and yourself have pointed out, all this is before we even get into the obvious problem of needing to completely disregard the author's assurance that he did not create MitD's species for the story, and the snarl being something Rich very much create for the story.

GW

*Or whatever he actually was.

[siprus]

I noticed one detail about the MITD escape sequence. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned. I think wish type spell best explains the mechanics of the escape scene.

At beginning of the escape Chul says "Agreed we must - " and is cut off. He could possibliy finnish the sentance with xykons hand in his mouth making it unintelligble, or it might be enough for him to Focus on the wish. The whole sentance judging Chul's character would have likely been "Agreed we must report back to hinjo as soon as possible".

In the next comic we see Chul and V they drop on top of hinjo. As he's rising up he immediately proceedes to reporting to Hinjo where he's been and what has happened. This is very soft indication that reporting to Hinjo was first thing on his mind as he was teleported.

Lastly how would MITD know where to spesifically teleport Chul. In general teleportation cannot target space above certain person, especially if MITD doesn't know his location. By reading Vs mind he could have gotten his approximate position, but not exact.

Because of these details I think it's likely that MITD was spesfically granting wish to O-Chul instead casting greater teleportation or similar spell.

[Precure]

Agreed. It can't be anything but wish.

[Ruck]

Here's something I was thinking about revisiting some old threads and posts in preparation for the new one and my own revisions:

We discussed it briefly at the time (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615971-MitD-XV-The-Other-Dark-One&p=24639322&viewfull=1#post24639322), but despite my stance at the time, upon revisiting the topic I think it might actually be useful to add part of Rich's answer on the MitD from the answers post two summers ago (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-may-39917949) (question 3) to the OP section 1a ("Directly from Rich"). I don't think we need the whole thing, but this line in particular I think offers some clarity:


It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story.

I feel like the emphasis that MitD's species is part of the story, that's it's not just a guessing game for fun, is important. There have been some arguments made in the past that it's not really that important to the story, or that Rich didn't choose it with the whole of the story in mind.

Now, this is where my perspective might be tainted from reading those old threads recently, because I don't recall offhand if that idea has become generally accepted and the arguments that MitD's species is not necessarily part of the story have been dropped. Could be that some of the arguments I've been reading are older and generally have been forgotten or dropped. But I do think it's an important point to keep in mind when forming speculation, so I'm bringing it up for possible inclusion.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[yokyok]

I must admit I don't really understand the logic behind your interpretation of that line. Could you elaborate?


I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

Translate the first sentence of the second paragraph as "It's not something I made up just for MitD's character arc." I think it's possible in context: that sentence is itself the beginning of a restatement of "it is possible to guess" (=not known only to my mind), he reiterates afterwards it's not "something I invented just for one purpose" (=but rather with other roles in the story), and "the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one" (=in a way it's something I did make up). It's still a stretch, though, and by this theory he really wasn't as precise as he should have been (if he could have imagined how much its exact wording would be analyzed!).

Alternatively, since we don't know what the Snarl is anyway, it could turn out in the end that the Snarl isn't something totally invented by him, in which case that line could be taken literally. That would make my guess two steps removed from the actual essence of what it is (MitD is like the Snarl which is a ___) and require one more step to fill in the blank.


Why would the Snarl have that power?

Because the gods have it and the Snarl is made out of divine quiddities. The rest is technicalities but of the things the gods need, the Snarl has at least souls (of mortals and gods) and belief (by gods).


And how much satisfaction did this hypothetical reader get from the fact that Malack's species was a yuan-ti*?
None. That fact was not highlighted or even revealed in the comic, and it makes no difference to the story. By contrast, the fact that Malack was a vampire is important, was foreshadowed (bloodwart tea), and makes a difference (he turned Durkon into a vampire). The MitD is in the latter category.


And why would you assume that MitD's species needs to be more "satisfactory" than Malack's? As opposed to the satisfaction being derived from the completion of MitD's personal journey of self-discovery?
Because the MitD's species is a central part of its story. The fact of it being unknown and purposely concealed is highlighted from the very beginning until now. There is a reason why there are 16 MitD threads, and it's not a detached intellectual exercise in zoology.

Or if you prefer dogma, Section 1a has an explicit quote from War and XPs (PDF, R4-B) that the reveal will be satisfactory.

[Precure]

O-Chul's comment made me think that it's not a thing you supposed to see aligned with evil. Maybe sonmething angel-like.

[Ruck]

I still think this is just about the best explanation of "fine line":


The fine line comment makes perfect sense.

Question: Who invented the character Thor in OOTS?
Was it the ancient Norwegians who created the original Thor mythology?
Was it Stan Lee, who created the comic book character and many of our modern concepts of Thor?
Or was it Rich, who adapted both of their ideas of Thor and changed them to make his own?

It's a fine line. Neither of these three completely created this character, it was Rich building off the other 2, so you really can't say this character was created by any one person, can you?

[Jaziggy]

Ok, its been a while so I'll probably forget some stuff, but I present for your consideration the Loculi.



I've been mulling this over for a couple days. I'm going to lead with strength- the narrative.

The most satisfying creature would be something that by virtue of what it is drives forward the story. The story is about an effort to repair a devastating structural defect in the universe before the Gods can unmake it for the nth time. The First Edition may well be a time before the Snarl. A First Edition monster may have some essence- the lost divinity color, pre-Snarl purity, etc- which renders it essential to resolving the plot and destroying, imprisoning, or untangling the snarl. This would be deeply satisfying, totally within the rules of the guessing game, and delightfully meta in a way that is just signature Giant. It also explains a clue so thorny we basically just don't talk about it any more. MiTD can't see the gates.

Every weapon the Order might use, every spell, every God- they are all in their essence part Snarl. Except, maybe, this one. The MiTD has a quality of purity that makes him the only thing that can truly counter the Snarl because he's the only thing remaining in the universe that isn't made out of the Snarl. This also would explain his curious other-ness, his naivete, his lack of understanding how the world works. He's not a child or a fool- he's an alien from a different universe, with different rules, trying to understand this new one he's found himself in. If the MiTD is a 1st Edition Loculi, that fact could make him the deus ex umbrella that he is meant to be.

It's also deeply satisfying to the challenge of the game. This is the deepest of deep cuts, a boss-level monster from 1982, a back issue of White Dwarf. It's not iconic, but it is an absolute classic.

Next to evaluate is looks, size, alignment, creature type, that sort of thing. This creature fits. He fits in the box. He's gross looking. He's got four legs and arms. Two eyes, a nose, a face, and a mouth with teeth. He could gobble up a goblin. He's not intrinsically tied to some merciless evil or extraplanar identity that makes it hard to believe him as the sweet gentle soul that he is. The guide posts even say that the stomp is positioned in a way that suggests four legs on the floor. This crazy, modestly sized, lizard-toad-dragon-centaur of the deep is a perfect fit physically.

He's not one of the prohibited categories. He's not from the jungle. His dad would be bigger than him. He's not immune to mind-affecting spells. He's a 'one of these'. He'd leave extremely weird tracks.

He's obscure, rare, and likely to be misidentified or misunderstood by all but the most sophisticated experts taking 20 in their skill. Even those experts are likely to miss things about it or disagree. He's not something anyone in the circus scene would have ever seen before. The White Dwarf entry for the Loculi states "communication is by semi-telepathic empathy of great range but no actual sounds would be heard" - quite surprising for one to talk. Xykon could have read somewhere he likes to eat dwarves- "they gratefully eat animal flesh whenever they can, favouring dwarf and gnome in particular" is straight out of White Dwarf.

Now to power level- we all love the numbers here and this makes this nominee frustrating, because there's no 3E entry for a Loculi. However, if I'm right about the 1st Edition thing, it's necessary for the story that there not be. It also gives the Giant a lot of leeway in terms of designing and scaling up this creature. An Age category 9 or 10 Loculi is right in the same power level as a very old or ancient dragon, which have CRs in the low 20s. Natural psionics in those CRs in existing sourcebooks include a Paragon Mind Flayer (STR 27, Psionics at 23rd level, DR 20/+6, SR 35) Ancient Gem Dragons (we've been over them, stats work great, way too big). These are creatures that could easily have access to Reality Revision at the DMs discretion as he's porting a 1E over into more modern systems, and would definitely be able to cobble together one of the lesser teleportation schemes. [ETA]: Giant updating the creature for 3E also fits with his more cryptic comments about where the line is between making something up for the story (porting a 1E to 3E and giving it just the right powers) and not making it up (the original creature was created by someone else).

The Loculi has the right physical qualities, has the right game mechanic qualities, fits the way the author likes to tell stories, would be a satisfying reveal that was important to the story, and the 1st Edition aspect of it would be hilarious.

Crusher has identified a remarkably good guess, a stunningly good bit of historical detective work, and I'm going to get on board the S.S. Loculi. Change my vote to Loculi!

[Shadowknight12]

I assume all of these have been brought up before, but since people were mentioning bringing up concrete examples of non-D&D monsters (that would be recognizable to a mostly American audience almost 20 years ago), I figured I'd at the very least get a post down for posterity's sake:

Bigfoot/Sasquatch - (large but not too large, bipedal, strong, its extreme elusiveness could be interpreted as a teleportation ability, could be seen as tough)

Jersey Devil - (appearance sure is weird, large but not too large, strong, tough, "It has been reported to move quickly and is often described as emitting a high-pitched 'blood-curdling scream'", could be reinterpreted as teleportation + a roar)

Bogeyman - (nigh-universal monstrous figure that is often associated with the darkness (one could even see it as THE monster in the darkness), size varies, bipedal, powers are extremely varied, same goes for its strength/toughness)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Translate the first sentence of the second paragraph as "It's not something I made up just for MitD's character arc."
That is not a "translation", that is a rewrite with barely anything to do with the original. Rich said he did not create MitD's species for the story. Snarl was created for the story. Therefore, MitD is not the snarl, a piece of it, its child, etc. Which should be obvious, since it is impossible to tell if the Snarl can even have children, spuds, etc because it was created for the story, and cannot be guessed from MitD's actions because we have absolutly no idea of what the snarl can and cannot do.


(=but rather with other roles in the story)
And this "translation" is literally the opposite of what Rich is saying. By this "logic" there was no need to make any clarification at all, since by definition anything he invented for the story would have "other" roles other than being the solution to the guessing games. A therbelwerkasaurus would also fit "other roles". Therefore, this is not what Rich meant.


(=in a way it's something I did make up)
No. The fine line clearly acknowledges that all D&D creatures are made up, and that to the average reader it doesn't make much of a difference if it was Rich Burlew or Richard Garfield the one that created it. They are all made up. But Rich chooses to make the distinction, fine as it is, and therefore the Snarl, his own creation, is out of the question.


since we don't know what the Snarl is anyway,
And this is just admitting that the Snarl is indistinguishable from a therbelwerkasaurus. We do not know what the Snarl is, therefore Rich cannot possibly expect us to figure it out.


Because the gods have it and the Snarl is made out of divine quiddities.
So is everything else. Being made of quiddities hasn't given Roy any teleportation powers.


None. That fact was not highlighted or even revealed in the comic, and it makes no difference to the story. By contrast, the fact that Malack was a vampire is important, was foreshadowed (bloodwart tea), and makes a difference (he turned Durkon into a vampire). The MitD is in the latter category.
You don't know that "MitD is in the latter category". There is no reason to assume that a satisfactory reveal of MitD requires anyone to recognize the species, and the fact that Rich set out to make it into a difficult guessing game strongly suggests he is NOT going to depend on anyone recognizing it even after the release. There is every reason to believe that it will be satisfactory because it will fit the clues, but that is not the same thing.

And once again, since we don't know what the Snrl can and cannot do, it cannot possibly be a satisfactory reveal even by your extremely loose standards.


Because the MitD's species is a central part of its story. The fact of it being unknown and purposely concealed is highlighted from the very beginning until now. There is a reason why there are 16 MitD threads, and it's not a detached intellectual exercise in zoology.
He is not "central" to the story. He is a secondary character at best. And the reason there's been 16 threads has nothing to do with how important MitD is and everything to do with the fact people like to talk about stuff while waiting for the next comic.


Or if you prefer dogma, Section 1a has an explicit quote from War and XPs (PDF, R4-B) that the reveal will be satisfactory.
And do you have another quote that explicitly says that the reveal will be satisfactory because anyone will be able to recognize the species? Because I don't know of any. I know he has planned the reveal for a long time, I strongly suspect the reveal will be part of a satisfactory heel face turn, and I know that Rich says that MitD's species will fit the clues. Heck, that quote suggests that Rich expects the reveal to be satisfactory despite the effort we have put into figuring it out. That even though this topic has been chewed to fine paste, it'll still be satisfactory, which if anything strongly suggests that the species is practically irrelevant to the satisfaction of the reveal.


We discussed it briefly at the time (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615971-MitD-XV-The-Other-Dark-One&p=24639322&viewfull=1#post24639322), but despite my stance at the time, upon revisiting the topic I think it might actually be useful to add part of Rich's answer on the MitD from the answers post two summers ago (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-may-39917949) (question 3) to the OP section 1a ("Directly from Rich").

Added.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I've been mulling this over for a couple days. I'm going to lead with strength- the narrative.

The most satisfying creature would be something that by virtue of what it is drives forward the story. The story is about an effort to repair a devastating structural defect in the universe before the Gods can unmake it for the nth time. The First Edition may well be a time before the Snarl. A First Edition monster may have some essence- the lost divinity color, pre-Snarl purity, etc- which renders it essential to resolving the plot and destroying, imprisoning, or untangling the snarl. This would be deeply satisfying

This would be deeply unsatisfying. If the MitD was the key all along, why did I bother wasting my time reading about systemic goblinoid oppression and The Dark One and all that jazz? None of that would have actually mattered, and that makes for a pretty poor story.

Ignoring, if course, how unsatisfying it would be if the author said, "yeah, it's something I created myself, but not for the story. Gotcha!" Ignoring now in this case, it would even have been something he created for the story.

[Jervis]

Mechanically I wouldn’t say that the Snarl is a god. It’s
More like an Abomination.
Made by one or more gods? Check
Super powerful? Check
Dangerous to everyone around it? Check

Abominations are usually controlled by the god that made them but that’s not always the case. Notable that abomination as a type is usually a indicator that said thing is a non-deity that can pose a problem to deities. Basically it’s how you stat something that doesn’t have the abilities granted by divine rank but can still punch up hypothetically speaking.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mechanically I wouldn’t say that the Snarl is a god. It’s
More like an Abomination.
Made by one or more gods? Check
Super powerful? Check
Dangerous to everyone around it? Check

Abominations are usually controlled by the god that made them but that’s not always the case. Notable that abomination as a type is usually a indicator that said thing is a non-deity that can pose a problem to deities. Basically it’s how you stat something that doesn’t have the abilities granted by divine rank but can still punch up hypothetically speaking.

I agree that if there was a stat block for the Snarl, it would probably be an abomination (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm). But just like with deities, it is a "build your own" set of rules, rather than anything that can be nailed down. But more importantly, I doubt there is even a hint of a stat block for the snarl. Rich isn't intending for his D&D group to fight it, so there is no reason for him to actually use those, or indeed any other, building rules. More than anything else in the comic, the snarl does what Rich needs it to do, unconstrained by any D&D rules.

GW

[InvisibleBison]

More than anything else in the comic, the snarl does what Rich needs it to do, unconstrained by any D&D rules.

GW

This makes sense in-universe as well, since the Snarl predates all the worlds except perhaps the very first, and it's not clear whether any of the previous worlds used D&D rules. So if the Snarl is a surviving entity from a time when the multiverse didn't operate under D&D rules, it may well not have any D&D stats, like how the unupdated 2e monsters didn't have Will saves.

[Ruck]

All right, I've got a fun new idea (YMMV on "fun" and "idea"):

MITD is Meatwad from Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

All the clues are there:


childlike nature that obscures hidden depths
can partially shapeshift to manifest limbs as well as other things (mostly things made of meat). he usually manifests arms so it is unclear if he realized he could manifest a foot to stomp with before the earthquake scene
moves around by rolling himself on the ground, which would leave confusing tracks
but also his face stays in the same place while he's rolling around, explaining why MITD's eyes do not move
spends all his time hanging out with a haughty jerk (Master Shake) and an exasperated, put-upon smart guy (Frylock), explaining why he fell in so readily with Xykon and Redcloak
the Aqua Teens and some of their enemies have access to futuristic technology, explaining how he got from New Jersey to OOTS-world. possibly also explaining the Escape scene
dumb enough that he could try to hit someone as lightly as possible and accidentally create tremendous damage
dumb enough to either not know what a gate is or not recognize one when he sees it
a talking lump of ground beef could be nauseating to some and beautiful to others. possible a wizard has "never seen anything like it" as it is from another universe, and as far as I recall the closest thing we've seen to ground beef in OOTS is hydra-burgers, which are not the same

Heck, after reading points 2-4 again, now I'm wondering if MITD is a Protean with a Meatwad template. Or maybe he watches a lot of Aqua Teen on the TV and thought it was cool how Meatwad did the thing with his face staying in the same place, so he tried to mimic that.

[Precure]

Skywarp or some other decepticon similar to him.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Skywarp_(G1)

Can teleport himself and others
Decepticons has enough strength and power
Made out of hard material
Transforming abilities explain all the reactions
Use family terms despite of being asexual
Can be hypnotized, so vulnerable to mind affect
Existed well before the strip 100

[Jervis]

This makes sense in-universe as well, since the Snarl predates all the worlds except perhaps the very first, and it's not clear whether any of the previous worlds used D&D rules. So if the Snarl is a surviving entity from a time when the multiverse didn't operate under D&D rules, it may well not have any D&D stats, like how the unupdated 2e monsters didn't have Will saves.

we know some worlds used ironclaw rules

[Crusher]

Skywarp or some other decepticon similar to him.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Skywarp_(G1)

Can teleport himself and others
Decepticons has enough strength and power
Made out of hard material
Transforming abilities explain all the reactions
Use family terms despite of being asexual
Can be hypnotized, so vulnerable to mind affect
Existed well before the strip 100

Serious question: do transformers eat anything? Do they need to get gas?

[Jasdoif]

But I don't put too much stock in people simply asserting it's a bad fit without argument or evidence. Or people declaring it doesn't "feel right" to them for some reason that has nothing to do with the criteria we know ("it's too powerful," "it's not iconic / instantly recognizable enough," "it will be obvious when we figure it out so we must not have figured it out yet," etc.). Or people outright misrepresenting what it can do (the repeated cases of people insisting it's a complete shapeshifter that can do anything, for example).The problem with the case of the protean is that it's too convenient. Not the case, the protean. Anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities, a protean could similarly accomplish by virtue of its extraordinary ability to assume the extraordinary abilities of other creatures. And most of the identifiable traits MitD has, fall well within the expectations of extraordinary abilities. A protean will look like a passable fit no matter what MitD is.

Not that this is the protean's fault specifically, it's kind of a general issue with any "use something else's powers" in a system whose entire mechanics/marketing strategy is centered around incrementally introducing "feels new" elements within the established structures, you rack up a lot of viable options and get a lot of flexibility when you can choose any of them (see also polymorph and friends, prepared spellcasting, wish and friends....).

To get a solid case with that kind of upper bound, you'd need a squeeze-theorem-esque approach showing that the protean cannot do what MitD also fails at doing. This works with the broad animate dead (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) point, but not with the much more precise attempt to recreate the escape (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html). (This is probably the most interesting part about the Glabrezu proposal; the restrictions on use of the overly dynamic wish ability fit the scenario quite well.) Most of the explanations rely on appealing to the MitD's personality...which doesn't do a particularly convincing job. Even overlooking how that's a different axis than abilities and thus there's little actual "squeezing" going on, those are the MitD's personality traits; they would apply whether the MitD is a protean or not.


All this stuff about a protean's ability to assume other creature's extraordinary abilities would of course be irrelevant if the protean's own abilities were adequate for explaining MitD...unfortunately they're not: The protean relies on picking up greater teleport through shifting into the form of an umbral blot, to be able to explain the escape.As much as it would amuse me to find that Psteve is a hidden hint that psionics in OotS-world are mashed between 3.0 rules and 3.5 rules, the "conversion" mentioned in the FBS block to gain psionic teleport wouldn't actually work that way: Since the protean has a Psionics ability, it's considered to already be psionic, and it retains its powers instead of getting new ones (other than psionic attack and defense modes that structurally resemble powers). And for the sake of accuracy, that conversion is mentioned in the (3.0) Psionics Handbook, not the (3.5) Expanded Psionics Handbook. (The XPH's idea of conversion is adding the psionics subtype and making Psionics "psi-like" instead of "spell-like".)

From the opposite direction...a protean could certainly get extraordinary abilities from creatures ineligible to be MitD themselves (size, immunity to mind-affecting affects, etc.) to add onto their own; but doing this deliberately is an esoteric form of the "abilities augmentation" mentioned in section 2d in the opening posts, with all that entails. (I suppose that could apply to any use of extraordinary abilities on a protean's part, but trying to dismiss the whole proposal on the basis of an ability that can't be freely disabled seems more convenient than appropriate.)


tl;dr The protean looks like a good fit for MitD because the protean's flexible abilities make it a good fit for a wide range of scenarios, rather than being a good fit for MitD in particular; MitD benefits from selection bias because of the guessing game. This does not change even if the MitD is, in fact, a protean.

[Jervis]

Serious question: do transformers eat anything? Do they need to get gas?

They consume energon, basically magical space energy blue crystal cubes. Depending on the continuity I do believe they can create energon using other forms of energy so hypothetically they could make energon by processing food. That’s not something common to most continuity by any means though. I think the animal based transformers like predicons and maximals can get energy from proper food though in some continuities but don’t quote me on that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

tl;dr The protean looks like a good fit for MitD because the protean's flexible abilities make it a good fit for a wide range of scenarios, rather than being a good fit for MitD in particular; MitD benefits from selection bias because of the guessing game. This does not change even if the MitD is, in fact, a protean.

As far as I can recall, the protean suggestion invokes its copying of Ex abilities to explain one thing: the escape. Everything else the protean explains using all its other characteristics (including, yes, the Alter Shape power, but crucially NOT to copy Ex powers from elsewhere). So I am mightily confused as to what you mean by "anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities", because I cannot think of anything else. Heck, the only one I can think of is Detect Thoughts, assuming that's an Ex for anything else, and that one the Protean has by base. Circus? Alter Shape & fluff. Tower? Strength 45-53 & regen 50. Fit under the umbrella? Base size, maybe slightly smaller due to being young.

So yeah, what other thing does the Protean explain by borrowing Ex powers other than the Esacape? The lack of snow tracks?

Grey Wolf

[Jaziggy]

This would be deeply unsatisfying. If the MitD was the key all along, why did I bother wasting my time reading about systemic goblinoid oppression and The Dark One and all that jazz? None of that would have actually mattered, and that makes for a pretty poor story.

Ignoring, if course, how unsatisfying it would be if the author said, "yeah, it's something I created myself, but not for the story. Gotcha!" Ignoring now in this case, it would even have been something he created for the story.

I don't think the plotlines would be at all mutually exclusive. Maybe it's the combination of pre-Snarl and a new quiddity that does it, or maybe the strong points Red Cloak is making come into play in a different way. The Snarl has stymied the Gods themselves for uncountable eons, it's going to take every sort of extraordinary thing to overcome it.

[Ruck]

tl;dr The protean looks like a good fit for MitD because the protean's flexible abilities make it a good fit for a wide range of scenarios, rather than being a good fit for MitD in particular; MitD benefits from selection bias because of the guessing game. This does not change even if the MitD is, in fact, a protean.


As far as I can recall, the protean suggestion invokes its copying of Ex abilities to explain one thing: the escape. Everything else the protean explains using all its other characteristics (including, yes, the Alter Shape power, but crucially NOT to copy Ex powers from elsewhere). So I am mightily confused as to what you mean by "anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities", because I cannot think of anything else. Heck, the only one I can think of is Detect Thoughts, assuming that's an Ex for anything else, and that one the Protean has by base. Circus? Alter Shape & fluff. Tower? Strength 45-53 & regen 50. Fit under the umbrella? Base size, maybe slightly smaller due to being young.

So yeah, what other thing does the Protean explain by borrowing Ex powers other than the Esacape? The lack of snow tracks?

Grey Wolf

Aye. Exactly what I would've said, more or less. For all the talk about the Protean's Alter Shape ability to mimic Ex abilities being able to "explain anything," there is exactly one scene in the comic that actually relies on that ability. The rest can be explained by the Protean's base stats and appearance.

(And, since we just added the quote to the first section to emphasize that MITD's species is part of the story and not just a guessing game: I'll add that Protean has by far the most thematic resonance with MITD's character arc, a quality that I, at least, have not been able to find in any other species.)

[Precure]

Serious question: do transformers eat anything? Do they need to get gas?

Apparently they can eat both organic and inorganic stuff.

[Jasdoif]

As far as I can recall, the protean suggestion invokes its copying of Ex abilities to explain one thing: the escape. Everything else the protean explains using all its other characteristics (including, yes, the Alter Shape power, but crucially NOT to copy Ex powers from elsewhere). So I am mightily confused as to what you mean by "anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities", because I cannot think of anything else.Well, that's easy enough to explain: I'm not using "MitD" and "protean" as synonyms. Not every creature's natural abilities can account for everything MitD does, and I'm not going to assume I've interpreted every panel well enough to know that presentations of the protean's natural abilities are in no way distinguishable from some other creature's specialized abilities...especially since I haven't seen all the panels; the comic isn't over and the reveal hasn't yet happened.

My point is that the protean will continue to look good (great?) even if the MitD isn't one. I'd find the proposal much more moving if something showed the protean's more distinct natural abilities or its limitations, but I accept that's unlikely to happen before the reveal (Destabilize Form would be a giveaway, I don't expect we'd see the perfect regeneration through the darkness; and we're extremely unlikely to see failures based on the type or number of abilities involved).


So yeah, what other thing does the Protean explain by borrowing Ex powers other than the Esacape? The lack of snow tracks?Honestly? With as cheap preventing tracks in snow (and more!) is (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsoftheWinterlands), I can easily believe that it's a feature of his new umbrella (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html).


(And, since we just added the quote to the first section to emphasize that MITD's species is part of the story and not just a guessing game: I'll add that Protean has by far the most thematic resonance with MITD's character arc, a quality that I, at least, have not been able to find in any other species.)I dunno, I feel like "You aren't where you came from" could also apply to the ANB, the glabrezu, the hunting horror, the carbosilicate amorph, the slaad, the uvuudaum, the xenocrysth....And all that's assuming some pithy phrasing of a basic component of character-driven fiction (internal change in response to external circumstances), rather than some other facet of the MitD's journey through the comic, is what the Giant believes is the core element of the MitD's character arc; and that MitD is deliberately a manifestation of that specific element.

That's kind of the issue with trying to use themes for justification when you're in the audience: interesting characters are multidimensional and the events in their lives are non-trivial; it's not hard to see a theme whether it was intended or not, and to see it applied whether it was intentionally applied or not.

[Ruck]

I dunno, I feel like "You aren't where you came from" could also apply to the ANB, the glabrezu, the hunting horror, the carbosilicate amorph, the slaad, the uvuudaum, the xenocrysth....And all that's assuming some pithy phrasing of a basic component of character-driven fiction (internal change in response to external circumstances), rather than some other facet of the MitD's journey through the comic, is what the Giant believes is the core element of the MitD's character arc; and that MitD is deliberately a manifestation of that specific element.

I mean, the ideas you're talking about could apply to basically any monster-- and I don't mean that as disagreement. I like the Protean because it's the one that can manifest external change that reflects the internal change.

(and because it's the only FBS monster whose strength I'm confident in for the Tower scene, and because I think it completely laps the field on the Circus scene.)

[WanderingMist]

Having now read the protean theory, I find it well thought out and plausible, therefore I want it to be wrong out of sheer spite.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My point is that the protean will continue to look good (great?) even if the MitD isn't one. I'd find the proposal much more moving if something showed the protean's more distinct natural abilities or its limitations, but I accept that's unlikely to happen before the reveal (Destabilize Form would be a giveaway, I don't expect we'd see the perfect regeneration through the darkness; and we're extremely unlikely to see failures based on the type or number of abilities involved).

Like Ruck says, I feel like a protean would have displayed it's "natural" abilities plenty in both the circus and the tower. But even beyond that, your argument boils down to the statement that, despite Rich's assurance that his pick for MitD fits better than anything else, the protean will fit too well because it could potentially explain anything with Alter Form, even though it mostly cannot because Ex abilities, being the weakest of the three, just can't do what Su and SLA can, and despite the fact that we do not in fact rely on the alter form Ex copies for any actual clues?

I'm sorry, as argument go, that is rather weak. Maybe if we were in fact invoking the Ex copies for a bunch of the clues, but the reality is that we don't. What most people like bout the protean is not that he can copy Ex abilities, it is that it is strong, disgusting, weird, etc.

Grey Wolf

[Jervis]

Having now read the protean theory, I find it well thought out and plausible, therefore I want it to be wrong out of sheer spite.

I’m still team Linnorm. The only argument against it that I’ve found is that redcloak thought he can’t cast cleric spells. But remember knowledge checks only give partial information. Yeah red cloak has used MMs before but that doesn’t mean he was able to find Linnorms specifically. IIRC Monster Manual 2 is one of those he’s never used. Also noteworthy is that RC met MitD he was possibly using 2e stats which where from issue 183 of dragon magazine. He may have not been updated yet.

[Crusher]

I mean, the ideas you're talking about could apply to basically any monster-- and I don't mean that as disagreement. I like the Protean because it's the one that can manifest external change that reflects the internal change.

(and because it's the only FBS monster whose strength I'm confident in for the Tower scene, and because I think it completely laps the field on the Circus scene.)

A slaad evolution would probably be the single best representation of that, but Protean would probably be second best since nothing else really changes, I think.

[Qwertystop]

Like Ruck says, I feel like a protean would have displayed it's "natural" abilities plenty in both the circus and the tower. But even beyond that, your argument boils down to the statement that, despite Rich's assurance that his pick for MitD fits better than anything else, the protean will fit too well because it could potentially explain anything with Alter Form, even though it mostly cannot because Ex abilities, being the weakest of the three, just can't do what Su and SLA can, and despite the fact that we do not in fact rely on the alter form Ex copies for any actual clues?

I'm sorry, as argument go, that is rather weak. Maybe if we were in fact invoking the Ex copies for a bunch of the clues, but the reality is that we don't. What most people like bout the protean is not that he can copy Ex abilities, it is that it is strong, disgusting, weird, etc.

Grey Wolf

I don't *think* that's the argument? My read on Jasdoif's argument is more something like... The Protean is versatile enough to be hard to falsify as a theory. A creature that works because it can do just about anything in a broad category is going to fit well to any set of observations that doesn't go pinning down things that the target definitely can't do. It's not quite the null hypothesis, but it's something like it, I think? It seems hard to come up with plausible things that might happen in the story that would prove that MitD isn't a Protean, and a Protean would in general fit a lot of other scenarios than the ones we've seen, and so the fact that a Protean fits feels more like coincidence than that it fits our particular situation especially well.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily a good metric to use for judging potential solutions to this kind of guessing game, and I'm not sure whether I agree that this is a problem the Protean has, but I don't think the point Jasdoif is making is quite the one you're dismissing. Though I'm pretty tired, and not sure I'm articulating clearly what the difference is, so maybe this is just my brain making random sparks.

[Jasdoif]

I don't *think* that's the argument? My read on Jasdoif's argument is more something like... The Protean is versatile enough to be hard to falsify as a theory. A creature that works because it can do just about anything in a broad category is going to fit well to any set of observations that doesn't go pinning down things that the target definitely can't do. It's not quite the null hypothesis, but it's something like it, I think? It seems hard to come up with plausible things that might happen in the story that would prove that MitD isn't a Protean, and a Protean would in general fit a lot of other scenarios than the ones we've seen, and so the fact that a Protean fits feels more like coincidence than that it fits our particular situation especially well.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily a good metric to use for judging potential solutions to this kind of guessing game, and I'm not sure whether I agree that this is a problem the Protean has, but I don't think the point Jasdoif is making is quite the one you're dismissing. Though I'm pretty tired, and not sure I'm articulating clearly what the difference is, so maybe this is just my brain making random sparks.Pretty much.

Most of the time capability alone is a valid heuristic, as if a creature can't do what MitD does there's not much point in looking at it further...but with open-ended access to other creatures' abilities, a protean has a natural advantage against nearly all other creatures to when it comes to how close it can resemble MitD without actually being MitD (basically solving the test itself, instead of what's being tested for); it'll be highly ranked in whatever standard serves as an estimate of...MitD-ability? And if we haven't found what MitD is, then protean could very easily be at the top of that list...and not having found MitD in that situation, we'd be left with protean as the best fit of the options we knew.

So fitting what MitD has failed to do, as well as what MitD is capable of, becomes particularly important for the protean; in much the same way as a proposal involving "obviously the escape (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) was wish" needs more than "obviously he could have used wish later (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) but he just didn't" to be believable. Of course, as Grey_Wolf_c has mentioned Alter Shape is much milder in potential than access to wish is; so this is more of a "where do you, personally, put the line on 'close enough to warrant making a claim'" rather than an argument against MitD being a protean...because it's certainly possible that MitD is, in fact, a protean.

[Ruck]

A creature that works because it can do just about anything in a broad category

And if this is the argument, as Jasdoif seems to confirm, then it again is a repetition of the same thing we've brought up before: The Protean cannot do just about anything. We've covered this, and we're just circling around misrepresentations of what a Protean can do again.


Having now read the protean theory, I find it well thought out and plausible, therefore I want it to be wrong out of sheer spite.

Wouldn't be the first time I got this reaction. But I think Rich knows what he's doing as a storyteller and is going to pick something that makes sense for the story.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I’m still team Linnorm. The only argument against it that I’ve found is that redcloak thought he can’t cast cleric spells.

Linnorms are also too large and, because of that, too weak to be MitD. And the best of the lot, dread, who uses psionic powers, thus skirting the undead creation business, also has the wrong number of eyes.


Also noteworthy is that RC met MitD he was possibly using 2e stats which where from issue 183 of dragon magazine. He may have not been updated yet.
Updates are not optional, and happen backwards in time - which is to say, Xykon is a sorcerer even in the past. Because of that, there is no "yet". If the species is updated, Rich uses the 3/3.5 version.

GW

[Jervis]

Linnorms are also too large and, because of that, too weak to be MitD. And the best of the lot, dread, who uses psionic powers, thus skirting the undead creation business, also has the wrong number of eyes.


Updates are not optional, and happen backwards in time - which is to say, Xykon is a sorcerer even in the past. Because of that, there is no "yet". If the species is updated, Rich uses the 3/3.5 version.

GW

The first issue literally has the characters update to use 3.5 stats. So we know prior to that moment everything was using 3.0 stats. Likewise there are characters described as 1E rogues and commoners who remember 1E rules. This means that in universe there are lines drawn between not 3.5 and 3.5 and there is precedent for them changing to use 3.5 stats. As for the size Grey is just huge and we know MitD isn’t full grown. People assuming that RC has perfect knowledge on MitD just because they know what he is could be looking over something for reasons I’ve already described.

And there’s the fact that we factually know that Xykon has either maxed or just very high ranks in Know Arcana which is that stat used for dragons. Yes knowledge isn’t the only way a creature can know about something but it gives us a reason why someone so understudied as Xykon would know what MitD is. And knowledge or not nothing but reading the MM entry will tell you everything about a creature. We know that RC is a metagamer but the only two places where this entry would exist are in a issue of dragon mag and the eventual MM2. And again MM2 wouldn’t be in play yet because we know the update to 3.5 happened later.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The first issue literally has the characters update to use 3.5 stats. So we know prior to that moment everything was using 3.0 stats. Likewise there are characters described as 1E rogues and commoners who remember 1E rules. This means that in universe there are lines drawn between not 3.5 and 3.5 and there is precedent for them changing to use 3.5 stats.
They have memory of it, sure. But Xykon would not have been a sorcerer if MitD was somehow 2nd ed, and yet Xykon was a sorcerer before MitD even showed up.


As for the size Grey is just huge and we know MitD isn’t full grown.
OK, pick one. You cannot keep just switching between linnorn subtypes as if it didn't matter. Grey doesn't have access to any form of escape explanation Grey has STR 24, and can create undead. Corpse tearer is gargantuan and can create undead (it's propensity to do so gives it its name!). Dread is colossal and has too many eyes. And the latter two have decent STR, but due to their size are too weak if they are so young they are MitD-sized.

(ETA: various corrections from looking it up in the MM2 rather thn relying on my memory)


People assuming that RC has perfect knowledge on MitD just because they know what he is could be looking over something for reasons I’ve already described.
Weird you insist on this even though I didn't mention it. But since you brought it up anyway: no, it would be weird if RC, who is an absolute nerd, hadn't fully researched what MitD can do so he could make best use of him.


And there’s the fact that we factually know that Xykon has either maxed or just very high ranks in Know Arcana which is that stat used for dragons. Yes knowledge isn’t the only way a creature can know about something but it gives us a reason why someone so understudied as Xykon would know what MitD is.
We do not know that Xykon actually knows what MitD is. MitD himself isn't sure, and even in the latest comic, "Xykon thinks MitD is some other creature" remains a plausible scenario.


And knowledge or not nothing but reading the MM entry will tell you everything about a creature. We know that RC is a metagamer but the only two places where this entry would exist are in a issue of dragon mag and the eventual MM2. And again MM2 wouldn’t be in play yet because we know the update to 3.5 happened later.
"Later" than the undead creation scene? No.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

Some arguments against the protean, which I still consider a pretty good choice, but since we're doing this:


The alignment is always chaotic neutral. Xykon and RedCloak seem to take MitD being evil as a given, and he joins in an evil laugh almost the first time we see him.
The environment is any. The Stereotypical Big Game Hunters may have been surprised to see "one of those", but should not have remarked upon seeing him in a forest.
No mention is made in the stat block of telepathy, although the Protean can Detect Thoughts. In fact, no mention of language is made at all. Surprise that MitD speaks Common doesn't really fit.
The Will Save is +32 and spell resistance is 39. It is not a "gimme", even for Xykon the epic level sorcerer, to overcome MitD's will and charm him.
The AC is 50. Attacking MitD in the darkness Miko (probably around +20 to 25 attack bonus from BAB and strength) likely wouldn't have hit at all, rather than "tickling" him. Rule of funny may apply here.
We have never seen MitD use any of the at-will psionics.
MitD sleeps. A sleeping creature cannot take actions (per sleep spell, "helpless"). While he sleeps, MitD's form should "boil", and since it is possible for him to take on a form up to 200 feet in length, he absolutely would have burst his cage asunder at some point. No amount of innate politeness or desire to be like his friends should prevail while he sleeps, and it's a pretty big hand-wave to ignore this. He sleeps; he can't take actions while he sleeps; his form should change constantly, including changes in size.
O Chul believes he knows what MitD is. What are the odds that a man of O Chul's limited education would recognize a protean? Awesome though he may be in his toughness, we have no reason to believe he knows more about aberrations than a wizard who has "never seen anything like it".
Oona likewise is of limited educational attainment, although she may have come across MitD's kind while hunting. However, she's not epic level so far as we know, so if she had come across a protean while hunting, she probably wouldn't have lived to tell about it.
Xykon, while coaching MitD for his big reveal in the first dungeon, paid a lot of attention to his words, but made no mention of his form. MitD appearing as a combination flea / rat / goblin would not have scared anyone.
Proteans are solitary creatures, but MitD knew his father, who was quite a bit larger and ate a lot.

[Fyraltari]

O Chul believes he knows what MitD is. What are the odds that a man of O Chul's limited education would recognize a protean?
Rather low. But considerably higher after consulting with Azure's city most learned scribe (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).


Oona likewise is of limited educational attainment, although she may have come across MitD's kind while hunting. However, she's not epic level so far as we know, so if she had come across a protean while hunting, she probably wouldn't have lived to tell about it.

I don't recall Oona claiming to know what MitD is, just that he is obviously powerful and that adding such a beast to her rooster would reflect well on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html).

[Shining Wrath]

Rather low. But considerably higher after consulting with Azure's city most learned scribe (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).



I don't recall Oona claiming to know what MitD is, just that he is obviously powerful and that adding such a beast to her rooster would reflect well on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html).

I took Oona saying that he is small and will grow as indicating she's seen a mature specimen. And I did have the timeline reversed on O Chul's knowledge, so that point no longer stands, and I'll cheerfully concede it. Not gonna get mad at anyone with any theory about MitD, it's supposed to be a mystery.

If MitD is a protean, I wonder if he knows he is capable of taking on multiple forms and gaining extraordinary abilities? He can't see himself, does he even know he changes size and shape?

Another note: have we ever seen him use darkvision? Or, contrariwise, not be able to see in the dark?

EDIT: if someone wants to argue with me, I shall use the wisdom of Greyview. "Nod. Get treat." Have your treats prepared.

[hroþila]

The thing with Oona's statement is that sure, it could be that she's familiar with his species, she knows he's not a mature specimen and therefore she knows he'll grow. Or it could be that she thinks he's a juvenile because of his personality, so she expects him to keep growing merely on that basis. So while it's likely that the MitD is indeed a juvenile, there's no guarantee that Oona knows what the MitD actually is.

[Crimsonmantle]

Oona seems to have at least a general idea what MitD is, but why do we think she is of "limited educational attainment"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The alignment is always chaotic neutral. Xykon and RedCloak seem to take MitD being evil as a given, and he joins in an evil laugh almost the first time we see him.
RC recruited/shanghaied him to guard his brother's village. At that point, Chaotic Neutral was probably fine. And CN doesn't mean "never does anything Evil".


The environment is any. The Stereotypical Big Game Hunters may have been surprised to see "one of those", but should not have remarked upon seeing him in a forest.
It's a creature from the outer planes. Finding it anywhere in the Material plane, not close to a portal, breach or the like, is surprising.


No mention is made in the stat block of telepathy, although the Protean can Detect Thoughts. In fact, no mention of language is made at all. Surprise that MitD speaks Common doesn't really fit.
Fluff makes it clear that proteans have a language of their own that evolves so quickly that it sounds effectively like nonsense to everything else. To a SBGH, who learns from observation rather than books, that probably is equivalent to not having a language at all. And yes, they can in fact speak every language, but fluff also makes a point of saying that proteans are extremely xenophobic and refuse to talk to any non-protean, so MitD speaking at all, and in common no less, fits the protean like a glove.


The Will Save is +32 and spell resistance is 39. It is not a "gimme", even for Xykon the epic level sorcerer, to overcome MitD's will and charm him.
So? Xykon is a sorcerer. His approach to overcoming SR and Save is "spam the spell". And he's probably boosted his own spell DC and DR penetration, what with those being the fundamental obstacles to his own powers.

ETA: also, see V's complaint regarding probabilities, harlots and copper pieces.


The AC is 50. Attacking MitD in the darkness Miko (probably around +20 to 25 attack bonus from BAB and strength) likely wouldn't have hit at all, rather than "tickling" him. Rule of funny may apply here.
What happens when you don't reach the AC does not mean "miss completely". It means whatever the DM/author wants first and foremost, but "you made contact, with no effect" is a very common way of interpreting it. That is what happens if you hit an opponent in full plate armour and don't hit any joints -you might as well have tickled them with a feather.


We have never seen MitD use any of the at-will psionics.
"Powers he doesn't know he has", which applies to pretty much every creature. Although I'll point out that detect thoughts has been offered as an explanation for both the ritual knowledge and the escape destination, and it's not like he'd have much reason to use the others (how many locked doors has he needed to Knock open?), or in some cases, we couldn't possibly tell if he had.


MitD sleeps. A sleeping creature cannot take actions (per sleep spell, "helpless"). While he sleeps, MitD's form should "boil", and since it is possible for him to take on a form up to 200 feet in length, he absolutely would have burst his cage asunder at some point. No amount of innate politeness or desire to be like his friends should prevail while he sleeps, and it's a pretty big hand-wave to ignore this. He sleeps; he can't take actions while he sleeps; his form should change constantly, including changes in size.
No. His base size is Large, which fits in the box, even more so if he is not fully grown. There is no reason to think that he can mutate outside that size passively - i.e. if he wanted to use Alter Form to give himself the poisonous tail of a colossal creature, sure that tail might be 200 feet long (the max), although as far as I can tell it'd still have a reach of 10 ft, so make of that what you will. But otherwise, passively while asleep, I'd assume it'd be just be random forms rather than the specific Ex appendages.

But yes, the fact his eyes don't change while asleep is the most obvious issue with the protean, and is listed as such in the OP.


Xykon, while coaching MitD for his big reveal in the first dungeon, paid a lot of attention to his words, but made no mention of his form. MitD appearing as a combination flea / rat / goblin would not have scared anyone.
Again: that is not what a protean does. The "base" body is still a protean's. It might add the wings of a flea, the tail of a rat and the left foot of a goblin to its body, but otherwise, it is still an mass of boiling flesh... which happens to have flea wings (presumably granting him flight), rat tail (possibly sticking from a random place) and a green foot between his eyes. That is plenty scary on its own right, and given MitD's proclivities, it is clearly better not to have him "improve" on that, or you are liable of ending with a less scary shape than if you left his body to its own devices.


Proteans are solitary creatures, but MitD knew his father, who was quite a bit larger and ate a lot.
"Solitary" means "if the party is going to fight it, he won't have friends". It does not mean "no two creatures of this species can ever be seen in the same place at the same time". "Solitary" is like "Always Evil" - meant to assist the DM in the campaign design, not a biological imperative.


Oona seems to have at least a general idea what MitD is, but why do we think she is of "limited educational attainment"?
You think there is a university hidden away the next ice-flow over? She and her tribe are hidden away, and exist at subsistence level (because the gods dealt them a terrible hand). Her chances to obtain an education beyond what she and her small tribe can figure out themselves are extremely limited. Admittedly, she will know a lot simply from practical observation of the menagerie in the caves, but she can't have access to much knowledge she didn't gather herself one hunt at a time.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I do not think there is any reason to believe Oona's words indicate any particular knowledge. Beyond that she probably has enough basic spacial awareness that after she said "so small, though!" Rich is not going to reveal that in fact the creature in the darkness was supposed to be already Gargantuan as of the strip where she said that.

[Jervis]

They have memory of it, sure. But Xykon would not have been a sorcerer if MitD was somehow 2nd ed, and yet Xykon was a sorcerer before MitD even showed up.


There was a massive room full of unupdated 2e monster, it’s clear that updates to statblocks happened as those sourcebooks come into existence. And to go slightly meta with this Xykon and Redcloak were both single class, so this could be early 3.0 before any good PrCs existed. And before MM2 which updated Linnorms.



OK, pick one. You cannot keep just switching between linnorn subtypes as if it didn't matter. Grey doesn't have access to any form of escape explanation. Corpse tearer can create undead (it's propensity to do so gives it its name!). Dread has too many eyes. And the latter two are too big, and therefore too weak if they are so young they are MitD-sized.

What is miracle? Grey has cleric casting. And, again, as I’ve explained many times before knowing what a creature is does not mean you know everything about it. I’ll explain why that’s isn’t a contradiction to the create undead scene in a minute.



Weird you insist on this even though I didn't mention it. But since you brought it up anyway: no, it would be weird if RC, who is an absolute nerd, hadn't fully researched what MitD can do so he could make best use of him.


We do not know that Xykon actually knows what MitD is. MitD himself isn't sure, and even in the latest comic, "Xykon thinks MitD is some other creature" remains a plausible scenario.


"Later" than the undead creation scene? No.

Grey Wolf

Again have we seen MM2 or Dragon 183 in Redcloaks collection? We’ve seen him use sourcebooks before but I don’t believe those were among of them. As such it’s possible he doesn’t have those and needs to rely on knowledge checks, which give incomplete information and do not guarantee the knowledge “casts as a cleric”.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There was a massive room full of unupdated 2e monster, it’s clear that updates to statblocks happened as those sourcebooks come into existence. And to go slightly meta with this Xykon and Redcloak were both single class, so this could be early 3.0 before any good PrCs existed. And before MM2 which updated Linnorms.
Irrelevant. MM2 came out before SoD.


What is miracle? Grey has cleric casting.
Then it can create undead.


Again have we seen MM2 or Dragon 183 in Redcloaks collection? We’ve seen him use sourcebooks before but I don’t believe those were among of them. As such it’s possible he doesn’t have those and needs to rely on knowledge checks, which give incomplete information and do not guarantee the knowledge “casts as a cleric”.

He's literally holding MM2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). Which if you had bothered to do even a minimum of your own research instead of piling it on me to do, you would have known.

And you know, I am rather tired of doing the footwork of your case for you. I'm pulling out of this conversation. As far as I can tell, the issues with the linnorms listed in the OP are still perfectly valid.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

RC recruited/shanghaied him to guard his brother's village. At that point, Chaotic Neutral was probably fine. And CN doesn't mean "never does anything Evil".

In addition to this, he refused to eat babies and hasn't really done much, if any, actual Evil regardless. I don't think "joining in an Evil laugh" is a scathing indictment of alignment.

Ignoring how "always" doesn't mean "always" in alignment blocks anyway.

[Jervis]

Irrelevant. MM2 came out before SoD.


Then it can create undead.



He's literally holding MM2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). Which if you had bothered to do even a minimum of your own research instead of piling it on me to do, you would have known.

And you know, I am rather tired of doing the footwork of your case for you. I'm pulling out of this conversation. As far as I can tell, the issues with the linnorms listed in the OP are still perfectly valid.

Grey Wolf

I was misremembering that one as a different book. On the topic of release dates, it doesn’t matter if a book existed when a story was written just if it existed when it was set. As I said before we know books come into existence in universe and we know that things happening before a certain point use different rules. We know everyone in SoD is using 3.0 rules for example or else things loose internal consistency.

That said I do agree knowing that RC has MM2 makes MitD being a linnorm less likely. I still say it’s a better fit than Protean and a EX greater teleport/planeshift but I need to start looking for other candidates

[LadyEowyn]

Based on a reread of the latest comic, I’m feeling like MITD’s lack of hunger is related to O-Chul’s presence. MITD specifically says it’s a change in the last few days.

It’s not something related to the Arctic, since they’ve been there for at least a couple weeks. It feels too convenient for him to judt have coincidentally reached maturity a couple days before the big battle. There’s nothing new about his diet. And his alignment shift has happened gradually, there’s nothing to make a few days ago be an inflection point.

What happened a few days ago was the paladins showing up.

…does anyone know if paladin mounts need less food than other creatures? In cases where the paladin mount is a real-world being, if that’s possible?

[Jervis]

Based on a reread of the latest comic, I’m feeling like MITD’s lack of hunger is related to O-Chul’s presence. MITD specifically says it’s a change in the last few days.

It’s not something related to the Arctic, since they’ve been there for at least a couple weeks. It feels too convenient for him to judt have coincidentally reached maturity a couple days before the big battle. There’s nothing new about his diet. And his alignment shift has happened gradually, there’s nothing to make a few days ago be an inflection point.

What happened a few days ago was the paladins showing up.

…does anyone know if paladin mounts need less food than other creatures? In cases where the paladin mount is a real-world being, if that’s possible?

Only think I can think of is share spells. Was o chu hit with a spell that makes it so he doesn’t need to eat? Is there a Paladin spell that can do that which he could have cast on himself? I know rules for alternate Paladin mounts exist based on CR but I don’t know if those apply here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Based on a reread of the latest comic, I’m feeling like MITD’s lack of hunger is related to O-Chul’s presence. MITD specifically says it’s a change in the last few days.
I don't disagree with your conclusion, but please be aware I'll be playing devil's advocate in this post:


It’s not something related to the Arctic, since they’ve been there for at least a couple weeks.
It could be that's how long it's taken him to "catch up". Sort of how after a lengthly period of actual RL hunger you can't just gorge yourself and be back to normal, you have to build up gradually.


It feels too convenient for him to judt have coincidentally reached maturity a couple days before the big battle.
XP is awarded in chunks, though. And for character development (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html).


There’s nothing new about his diet.
That is not true. We know he is being fed by Oona's tribe, rather than RC's goblins. Given the massive influx of extra meat resulting from XYkon's cave expeditions, it might just be that they do have all-you-can-eat even by MitD's standards, and that might make all the difference.


And his alignment shift has happened gradually, there’s nothing to make a few days ago be an inflection point.
True but, again, the universe delivers XP in chunks, and sometimes it takes you checking, at that.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

Just a reminder that Redcloak being incredulous that MitD can create undead does not mean MitD can not create undead.

MitD has expressed that he should be able to do certain things (I.E. "hope" really hard so that O-chul escapes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)) to similar incredulity before.

[halfeye]

Just a reminder that Redcloak finding it incredulous that MitD can create undead does not mean MitD can not create undead.

MitD has expressed that he should be able to do certain things (I.E. "hope" really hard so that O-chul escapes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)) to similar incredulity before.

In English, which I presume is not 3Power's first language, Redcloak could find it incredible, or Redcloak could be incredulous, though the latter is more rarely used. The root word is "credit", meaning "believe".

[InvisibleBison]

Just a reminder that Redcloak finding it incredulous that MitD can create undead does not mean MitD can not create undead.

Then what does it mean?

[Jervis]

I keep pointing it out but we shouldn’t assume RC has full knowledge of what MitD can do. Him having MM2 shoots linnorm is the foot a little bit, but knowing what something is in know way implies that he has full knowledge of his capabilities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I keep pointing it out but we shouldn’t assume RC has full knowledge of what MitD can do. Him having MM2 shoots linnorm is the foot a little bit, but knowing what something is in know way implies that he has full knowledge of his capabilities.

And I keep pointing out that RC is a nerd with access to all the monster manuals who has even studied chemistry in a medieval fantasy world and therefore can be relied to be the author's mouthpiece for accurate, if sarcastic, info dumps.

ETA: Also:

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
So, how about instead of assuming that RC doesn't know what he is talking about and base your suggestions on that, you just chose to assume that RC does know what he is talking about?

Grey Wolf

[LadyEowyn]

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but please be aware I'll be playing devil's advocate in this post:


It could be that's how long it's taken him to "catch up". Sort of how after a lengthly period of actual RL hunger you can't just gorge yourself and be back to normal, you have to build up gradually.


XP is awarded in chunks, though. And for character development (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html).


That is not true. We know he is being fed by Oona's tribe, rather than RC's goblins. Given the massive influx of extra meat resulting from XYkon's cave expeditions, it might just be that they do have all-you-can-eat even by MitD's standards, and that might make all the difference.


True but, again, the universe delivers XP in chunks, and sometimes it takes you checking, at that.

Grey Wolf

Is any of that possible? Sure. But does it fit neatly with the evidence we’ve been given? If something important about MITD changed due to to a specific moment of XP gain or alignment shift, but we never saw or heard reference to that moment, would that be satisfying? Ditto for the Arctic and the changes in food - they’ve been going on for weeks, not the last few days.

So personally, I’m going with the one possible relevant thing that did change in the last few days - the arrival of O-Chul - unless I see a better suggestion.

(On another topic, the MITD identity hint I’m most curious about is “how does the MITD know what the astral plain looks like?”.)

[Crimsonmantle]

You think there is a university hidden away the next ice-flow over? She and her tribe are hidden away, and exist at subsistence level (because the gods dealt them a terrible hand). Her chances to obtain an education beyond what she and her small tribe can figure out themselves are extremely limited. Admittedly, she will know a lot simply from practical observation of the menagerie in the caves, but she can't have access to much knowledge she didn't gather herself one hunt at a time.

Grey WolfNo, I meant not to underestimate the knowledge of oral cultures. Especially not their specialists.

As to Redcloak and D&D sourcebooks... he clearly has read a lot but he himself doesn't know if he's read them all:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

[Fyraltari]

they’ve been going on for weeks, not the last few days.


If I recall correctly, they can't have been there for much longer than a week. The Godsmoot was three days after the pyramid. Then two days (I think?) to get to Firmament and two days to get to Monster Hollow.

[LadyEowyn]

Oona’s statements indicated that she recognized him and had expectations for what his size would be (i.e., a typical juvenile of his species would be larger than he is now).Given that she’s a beastmaster who lives next to a dungeon of high-level monsters, I’m going to conclude she knows what she’s talking about.

As far as alignment goes - Redcloak took one look at him and expected he’d be on their side, so I’d expect that his species’ typical alignment is, at the least, Usually Evil.


If I recall correctly, they can't have been there for much longer than a week. The Godsmoot was three days after the pyramid. Then two days (I think?) to get to Firmament and two days to get to Monster Hollow.
Fair point, I haven’t been tracking the dates exactly. Regardless, MITD’s sudden reduction in hunger didn’t occur at the same time as the move to the Arctic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Redcloak took one look at him and expected he’d be on their side, so I’d expect that his species’ typical alignment is, at the least, Usually Evil.

"Their side" was, at that point, a peaceful goblin village lead by his True Neutral (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) brother. Anything Not-Good would probably have done for the original intention.

GW

[LadyEowyn]

When Redcloak went to recruit MITD, it was with the goal of getting him to join the Plan.

Redcloak only decided to stay in Right-Eye’s village after the escape attempt, and Xykon immediately showed up and put the kibosh on that.

[Peelee]

I keep pointing it out but we shouldnÂ’t assume RC has full knowledge of what MitD can do. Him having MM2 shoots linnorm is the foot a little bit, but knowing what something is in know way implies that he has full knowledge of his capabilities.

I've stopped trying to convince people of what MitD is (aside from Wile E. Coyote, which you should be completely convinced of), but this is an issue. We're not looking at a record of actual events. This is a scripted work. Every interaction, every conversation, every word and action is deliberately put in place by the author. Which means we have to ask, if a scene takes place in which Redcloak comments on MitD's abilities, what purpose is there in Redcloak being wrong? There's no narrative purpose that I can see. If MitD wasn't going to raise the dead, why bring it up at all? There's plenty of jokes that could be made without also hinting at its abilities, but the author didn't write those. The author wrote a joke that did hint at its abilities. Sure, characters can be wrong, but there's always narrative reason for them being wrong. Characters being wrong advances the story or fleshes out the character more or sets things up for later. None of that happens here. It's just a simple, one-off joke that hints at the monster's abilities. I see no reason whatsoever why we should assume this might not be correct.


As far as alignment goes - Redcloak took one look at him and expected heÂ’d be on their side, so IÂ’d expect that his speciesÂ’ typical alignment is, at the least, Usually Evil.

Right-Eye was on Redcloak's side and waa confined True Neutral.As such, I don't think that is any sort of indicator of a specific person's alignment.

[Shining Wrath]

So? Xykon is a sorcerer. His approach to overcoming SR and Save is "spam the spell". And he's probably boosted his own spell DC and DR penetration, what with those being the fundamental obstacles to his own powers.


No. His base size is Large, which fits in the box, even more so if he is not fully grown. There is no reason to think that he can mutate outside that size passively - i.e. if he wanted to use Alter Form to give himself the poisonous tail of a colossal creature, sure that tail might be 200 feet long (the max), although as far as I can tell it'd still have a reach of 10 ft, so make of that what you will. But otherwise, passively while asleep, I'd assume it'd be just be random forms rather than the specific Ex appendages.

But yes, the fact his eyes don't change while asleep is the most obvious issue with the protean, and is listed as such in the OP.

Grey Wolf

In the scene where Xykon lays a Geas upon MitD, it works on the first try. Which it had better; a lot of creatures react violently to a failed attempt to mess with their minds. Consider what violently would mean: a protean gets 5 attacks at +54, +49, +44, +39, and +34; Xykon's AC is unlikely to be above 30. He's not wearing armor, he gets a +5 from being a lich plus maybe 3 +5 items (ring, cloak, amulet). Each hit will do an average of 28 points of damage. Xykon has maybe 25 D12 = 163 HP. It's not impossible for a protean to one-round him if it rolls well (and it gets a critical on a 19, so a 50-50 chance of a crit, too). I think Xykon values his own bones too much to risk that. I'll concede he's arrogant, though.

Per RAW:


In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks).

You argue that a form that constantly boils, and requires an action to not change, will never randomly change to be anything but size Large? I have my doubts. It's certainly not called out that the protean always chooses the new forms. It can choose, but that doesn't say that if it makes no choice nothing happens - in fact, I'd say quite the opposite. It's implied that the protean can only take the forms of things it has seen (sort of druid-like), so perhaps MitD has seen very few creatures larger than itself - or at least not until they reached Kragor's dungeon. That might be a pending plot twist.

BTW, the protean adopting different sized creatures does affect reach - you were wondering about that above.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In the scene where Xykon lays a Geas upon MitD, it works on the first try.

So does Haley's shot to break the amulet. How unlikely it is is meaningless beyond "it was not literally impossible". Rich needed Xykon to establish himself as top boss again, and that was a good shorthand way to do it, it seems.

GW