Vecna Playtest Notes [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-22, 12:36 AM

Dork_Forge

2022-06-22, 05:49 AM

I think Wish and Divine Intervention were really the clutch aspects here, allowing otherwise unplayable spells to largely nerf his statblock.

For the record though, Vecna does have 120ft Truesight though. I'd say that things might have gone a bit differently if Vecna would have used Scrying, particularly against the Counterspellers, to bring their vision abilities back online.

Hael

2022-06-22, 05:59 AM

ff7hero

2022-06-22, 07:22 AM

Twas a Peace Cleric 1/Lore Bard 18 actually, but excellent summary regardless.

This was a very defensive party indeed, with DF's Fighter being our hardest hitter by far. This ended up helping us out as he was able to be scary enough when Vecna arrived that TM and I were able to setup our silly long casting time spells. It also meant we could more or less ignore most of the adds to focus on taking Vecna down ASAP.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-22, 08:27 AM

That sounds about what I would expect. The party described above is exceptionally strong defensively, but less potent offensively (nova damage etc). Vecna will struggle against both sorts of extreme ends of the spectrum.

In all fairness, we were also using the Spell Point casting variant, (which while I love it), is a huge boost for the players.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-22, 10:13 AM

Circle of Power was a fantastic option, as I expected. I also would never have thought to use Druids Grove, I might have to talk that one over with our party Sorcerer since he's spent some time studying druidic magic it wouldn't be completely off for him to try wishing for it. Could be a very useful strategy.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-22, 01:09 PM

This was a very defensive party indeed, with DF's Fighter being our hardest hitter by far. This ended up helping us out as he was able to be scary enough when Vecna arrived that TM and I were able to setup our silly long casting time spells. It also meant we could more or less ignore most of the adds to focus on taking Vecna down ASAP.

I absolutely agree with this. DF’s Psi Warrior was effectively aggressive, and hounded Vecna across the map.

Psi Empowered Leap > 30’ Teleport.

Interestingly enough, despite both the Psi Warrior and Twilight Cleric having Half Cover granting powers, neither of us used one, that battle.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-22, 01:26 PM

I absolutely agree with this. DF’s Psi Warrior was effectively aggressive, and hounded Vecna across the map.

Psi Empowered Leap > 30’ Teleport.

Or in my case, why not both! It was tough to use Action Surge for Dashing, but ultimately worth it

Interestingly enough, despite both the Psi Warrior and Twilight Cleric having Half Cover granting powers, neither of us used one, that battle.

I really wanted to once Vecna showed up, but his mobility meant that I kept using my BA for mobility buffs before my PC froze. Kicking myself for not taking Mobile!

Rafaelfras

2022-06-22, 01:28 PM

Finished up a Vecna Playtest with Dork_Forge, and F7 Hero from the Playground.
The party:
17th level Lore Bard/Peace Cleric w/ Simulacrum Twin…Notable spells: Wish, Forecage, Telekinesis.
17th level Psi Warrior, with Sunblade
20th level Twilight Cleric with Couatl.

The opposition:

Geryon
MPMoM Necromancer (race: Undead)
MPMoM Conjurer (also Undead).
Vecna (arrives two rounds in)

My personal conclusion is Vecna needs Blindsight, as Vecna’s Statblock is very sight dependent.

The Bards used Telekinesis and Forecage to pen in Geryon.
On round two Vecna arrives.

The Bard uses Wish for a Druid’s Grove, which successfully evaded Vecna’s Dread Counterspell. Admittedly, Druid’s Grove is a spell, I had never paid much heed to, before.

Druid’s Grove has legs!
Essentially the spell can, (in part), block an enemy’s Line of Sight while not impeding your allies.

Druid’s Grove alone, prevents much of Vecna’s Statblock from being used.

On top of this, the Twilight Cleric used Divine Intervention to place a Hallow spell with the Extra-dimensional/Teleportation inhibiter option. Neither Vecna nor Geryon are Teleporting away, now.

The next round the Twilight Cleric casts Circle of Power, and the party eats Fireballs and Circle of Death spells for zero damage due to Bardic Inspirations helping Saving Throws and Circle of Power making Save for Half, instead Save for None.

Vecna’s attempt to Dispel Magic the Hallow or Druid’s Grove spells were Counterspell-ed by the Bard.

The Encounter lasted approximately 8 rounds.

My Thoughts:
Vecna needs some more spells, or terrain control powers.

Invisibility only twice per day, (and it is not even Greater Invisibility) and Globe of Invulnerability once per day just does not make Vecna feel like what I would expect an Archlich to play like.

Vecna’s sight dependence is also a major issue. Vecna needs both Truesight and Blindsight.

That said, it was fun. I doff my cap to Max Wilson, whom was the DM, and ran a fun session.

Thank you guys so much for this.
This illustrated the problems that I and others have pointed out over these days on 2 different threads.
Specifically for Vecna, he is weak, period.
He cannot present a decent challenge for level 20 groups.
He has low AC, doesn't have access to defensive spells (not even shield) low HP, and bad atributes. In my particular case my party has unusual size (9 level 15) he can't last a single round because my party can do more than 275 damage in a round.
The new stats blocks are constraints, period. They don't leave room for strategy. Anything different and your monster is done. You can't change tactics, you don't have more resources and you can't spend then in a different way for a better outcome. Did your 1/day spell got foiled? It's over. A stronger version would help a lot? You can't do it. And of course if you even have access to the spell in the first place, which our super achlich does not have.
These problems will become clearer and clearer the more he is tested.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-22, 01:38 PM

Thank you guys so much for this.
This illustrated the problems that I and others have pointed out over these days on 2 different threads.
Specifically for Vecna, he is weak, period.
He cannot present a decent challenge for level 20 groups.
He has low AC, doesn't have access to defensive spells (not even shield) low HP, and bad atributes. In my particular case my party has unusual size (9 level 15) he can't last a single round because my party can do more than 275 damage in a round.
The new stats blocks are constraints, period. They don't leave room for strategy. Anything different and your monster is done. You can't change tactics, you don't have more resources and you can't spend then in a different way for a better outcome. Did your 1/day spell got foiled? It's over. A stronger version would help a lot? You can't do it. And of course if you even have access to the spell in the first place, which our super achlich does not have.
These problems will become clearer and clearer the more he is tested.

Eh, having been part of two tests now (running and fighting him) I disagree with the premise that he's weak or bad. We only had an easy time of it because of creative spell use by optimising-minded players, and we had the benefit of choosing our own loot. If you don't shut down his vision, which most groups won't even think to try or even be able to do, then you'll have a much harder time with it.

Whilst I'm sure your group could probably kill him in a round at 15th level, that is because your group is abnormally large, which the game heavily favours. A single CR 26 creature is only a hard encounter for that kind of party.

I do think his spells should be a little bit different, but two uses of Shield would be adequate IMO, and even that isn't actually necessary.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-22, 02:12 PM

Eh, having been part of two tests now (running and fighting him) I disagree with the premise that he's weak or bad. We only had an easy time of it because of creative spell use by optimising-minded players, and we had the benefit of choosing our own loot. If you don't shut down his vision, which most groups won't even think to try or even be able to do, then you'll have a much harder time with it.

Whilst I'm sure your group could probably kill him in a round at 15th level, that is because your group is abnormally large, which the game heavily favours. A single CR 26 creature is only a hard encounter for that kind of party.

I do think his spells should be a little bit different, but two uses of Shield would be adequate IMO, and even that isn't actually necessary.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the game need to module encounters to 9 members party. That's my job as a DM, to change stuff to challenge them, because they are not standart.
The amount of change that I need to apply in order to challenge then give me good perspective where a monster lacks. (You need to see what I had to do to chief Ghu from SKT this weekend)
I am also not saying that every monster need to be a challenge in the first place. But when we are talking about one of the biggest baddies of D&D my bar will be very high and that's why this Vecna disappointed me so much.
He should absolutely be a hard encounter to my party, but I can't call a 1 round kill hard at all. And a cr26 absolutely need to challenge level 15 players.
He is very vulnerable to lack of vision, ranged damage dealers, party size, things that bypass or shut down his reactions, etc, etc.
It's just too many things. For a creature that should be THE lich of the game

Dork_Forge

2022-06-22, 02:37 PM

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the game need to module encounters to 9 members party. That's my job as a DM, to change stuff to challenge them, because they are not standart.
The amount of change that I need to apply in order to challenge then give me good perspective where a monster lacks. (You need to see what I had to do to chief Ghu from SKT this weekend)
I am also not saying that every monster need to be a challenge in the first place. But when we are talking about one of the biggest baddies of D&D my bar will be very high and that's why this Vecna disappointed me so much.
He should absolutely be a hard encounter to my party, but I can't call a 1 round kill hard at all. And a cr26 absolutely need to challenge level 15 players.
He is very vulnerable to lack of vision, ranged damage dealers, party size, things that bypass or shut down his reactions, etc, etc.
It's just too many things. For a creature that should be THE lich of the game

I mean, we are also dealing with the CR system, the difficulties are normally on the light side, especially with overwhelming action economy.

I guess I'm curious about this:

What makes other Liches so much better? Or Acererak*?

If you deny them their vision, in the same way it's proposed/done to Vecna, then huge swathes of their much more vast spell list just stop working. In fact, in that same situation they're even worse off, since pretty much everything they do is subject to counterspelling. Maybe adding Time Stop to Vecna would fix most folk's complaints?

*It's worth noted that this is a lopsided comparison, Acererak's block actively incorporates his artifact, where as Vecna's points to it as a damage slider.

Angelalex242

2022-06-22, 04:40 PM

Yeesh. Imagine if you'd had a paladin smiting the living daylights out of him.

Kane0

2022-06-22, 04:42 PM

Yeesh. Imagine if you'd had a paladin smiting the living daylights out of him.

To be fair, +1 Paladin is -1 something else

Angelalex242

2022-06-22, 05:05 PM

Well, my level 20 Paladin (Ancients) went toe to toe with the Red Wizard liege lord, whose name escapes me, and he was perfectly suited for the task. He had nothing against all those smites and my antimagic. And lucky in case of emergencies.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-22, 05:53 PM

I mean, we are also dealing with the CR system, the difficulties are normally on the light side, especially with overwhelming action economy.

I guess I'm curious about this:

What makes other Liches so much better? Or Acererak*?

If you deny them their vision, in the same way it's proposed/done to Vecna, then huge swathes of their much more vast spell list just stop working. In fact, in that same situation they're even worse off, since pretty much everything they do is subject to counterspelling. Maybe adding Time Stop to Vecna would fix most folk's complaints?

For me? First and foremost the spellcasting and the things that i can do with it (changing spells if you need to make then more challenging but I can think of enough strategies as it is, changing them can ramp up things very significantly)
Legendary Actions are just better then reactions, they dont need a trigger and in Acererak case give him 3 more casts of third level spells per round. This is a lot. of course Acererak 2nd level spells are arcane lock and knock but you can upcast the 1st level ones or spam animate dead or go heavy metal and give him fireball, blink, mirror image, invisibility, hypnotic pattern, go crazy. Spamming 3rd level spells as a Legendary action is crazy strong.
And last but not least

It's worth noted that this is a lopsided comparison, Acererak's block actively incorporates his artifact, where as Vecna's points to it as a damage slider.
This is a superior design as he can use the orb between his turns.

All in all Acererak is a way more rounded and better lich

Psyren

2022-06-22, 06:02 PM

I mean, we are also dealing with the CR system, the difficulties are normally on the light side, especially with overwhelming action economy.

I guess I'm curious about this:

What makes other Liches so much better? Or Acererak*?

If you deny them their vision, in the same way it's proposed/done to Vecna, then huge swathes of their much more vast spell list just stop working. In fact, in that same situation they're even worse off, since pretty much everything they do is subject to counterspelling.

This.

For me? First and faremost the spellcasting and the things that i can do with it (changing spells if you need to make then more challaging but I can think of enougth strategies as it is, changing then can ramp up things very significnly)
Legendary Actions are just better then reactions, they dont need a trigger and in Acererak case give him 3 more casts of third level spells per round. This is a lot. of course Acererak 2nd level spells are arcane lock and knock but you can upcast the 1st level ones or spam animate dead or go heavy metal and give him fireball, blink, mirror image, invisibility, hypnotic pattern, go crazy. Spamming 3rd level spells as a Legendary action is crazy strong.

Putting aside you can add spells to Vecna too (the BoVD can contain any of them), nearly all the spells you listed here require vision too. The major issue with his fight here is the issue with any caster fight where you can guarantee asymmetric vision, it shuts down 5e casting quite thoroughly.

With that said, I certainly agree that he should really have a legendary action spellcast, or at the very least be able to cast as a reaction.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-22, 10:19 PM

Yeesh. Imagine if you'd had a paladin smiting the living daylights out of him.

I don’t believe a Paladin would have been a better choice in this battle.
A Paladin would need Greater Steed to keep up with Vecna, and Vecna could easily kill or dispel the steed, thus depriving the Paladin of their mobility.

Psi Warriors can cover some ground, and the Full Court Press that DF had on Vecna, was crucial.

*It's worth noted that this is a lopsided comparison, Acererak's block actively incorporates his artifact, where as Vecna's points to it as a damage slider.

I have not used Acererak, but Acererak’s statblock looks better to me and is CR 23. The new statblocks in some cases seem weaker than the old, especially with casters. Paralysis from Acererak is ultimately more impactful then the gradual degradation from Vecna’s Afterthought.

If Vecna could make one attack with Afterthought and cast a spell, this would help the statblock, if coupled with Blindsense.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-23, 12:00 AM

For me? First and foremost the spellcasting and the things that i can do with it (changing spells if you need to make then more challenging but I can think of enough strategies as it is, changing them can ramp up things very significantly)
Legendary Actions are just better then reactions, they dont need a trigger and in Acererak case give him 3 more casts of third level spells per round. This is a lot. of course Acererak 2nd level spells are arcane lock and knock but you can upcast the 1st level ones or spam animate dead or go heavy metal and give him fireball, blink, mirror image, invisibility, hypnotic pattern, go crazy. Spamming 3rd level spells as a Legendary action is crazy strong.
And last but not least

What's stopping you from changing the spells in Vecna's block if that's part of what you like about Acererak?

This is a superior design as he can use the orb between his turns.

I wasn't even talking about his Orb, I was talking about his staff, which is what accounts for a lot of his inherent challenge in his block vs a normal Lich.

All in all Acererak is a way more rounded and better lich

Having run both, I don't personally agree. You also didn't address that vision denial stops them both massively, or that Acererak is far more vulnerable to Counterspell.

I don’t believe a Paladin would have been a better choice in this battle.
A Paladin would need Greater Steed to keep up with Vecna, and Vecna could easily kill or dispel the steed, thus depriving the Paladin of their mobility.

Psi Warriors can cover some ground, and the Full Court Press that DF had on Vecna, was crucial.

From the Psi Warrior's point of view:

I don't see being able to cover the same ground I needed to as a Paladin, and by doing what I did as a Paladin I'd be removing two-three large class features (the auras) from the party, removing a large benefit of having a Paladin in the first place.

I have not used Acererak, but Acererak’s statblock looks better to me and is CR 23. The new statblocks in some cases seem weaker than the old, especially with casters. Paralysis from Acererak is ultimately more impactful then the gradual degradation from Vecna’s Afterthought.

I don't agree that they didn't include the paralysing touch, but mainly because it feels weird for a lich to not have it. My issue with the comparison is that Acererak has two powerful magic items built into his block, whereas the reception to 'use the BoVD' has largely been negative.

If Vecna could make one attack with Afterthought and cast a spell, this would help the statblock, if coupled with Blindsense.

I'm not sure if you're referring to something different, but he can already do better than that.

Vecna can cast a spell, or use one of his non-spell actions, and then still make two Afterthought attacks. It's part of what makes his action economy so ruthlessly aggressive, and has the benefit of pressing different defenses (saves and AC) in the same turn. For example, the Wizard that uses Absorb Elements to not eat a Lightning Bolt doesn't have a reaction left to Shield the incoming dagger attacks and vice versa.

As for Blindsense, whilst it would be a nice addition, I'm not sure it makes sense for him to have it. Imo I think this is an inherent issue with the limitations of Truesight, people just complain about it more with Vecna because 'that he can see' is written into his block, rather than in a multitude of spells they then need to cross-reference.

For the thread at large I think it would be worthwhile to consider some of the practical complaints with vision:

If you effectively blind him, a lot of his block shuts down.

This is also true for Demogorgon, yet I've never heard that complaint leveled against him.

The vast majority of monsters get shut down significantly by depriving them of the ability to see you, this isn't new, this isn't unique, and this makes perfect sense. To insert something like a decent range blindsight is to make him much harder, not just for the optimising parties that pull out the strategies being talked about, but to the masses he's actually designed for.

Psyren

2022-06-23, 12:12 AM

Where I'll give Acererak the edge over Vecna is that he has legendary action casting of his at-wills. Had Vecna had this ability, he would have been able to spam up to 4 dispels per round until the Druid Grove was removed; it's unlikely that party would have been able to counter them all even if he was in range for all of them.

Envyus

2022-06-23, 12:34 AM

[I]My personal conclusion is Vecna needs Blindsight, as Vecna’s Statblock is very sight dependent.

True Sight is supposed to be just the best vision. Multiple references have been made to Truesight being an upgrade to Blindsight. The best thing is just to treat Truesight as being able to do what Blindsight does.

Envyus

2022-06-23, 12:38 AM

Vecna’s attempt to Dispel Magic the Hallow or Druid’s Grove spells were Counterspell-ed by the Bard.

Can't he Counterspell the Counterspell.

Also why did Geryon not teleport out of the Cage in the first turn. He has 4 chances to attempt it.

Psyren

2022-06-23, 12:51 AM

Can't he Counterspell the Counterspell.

The Grove kept him from seeing the bard while the bard could see him. YMMV on whether Truesight should have beaten it.

It's normally not a super-powerful spell (10 min casting time) but Wish dropped that to 1 action.

EDIT: I'm guessing the fight took place outdoors or underground as otherwise the Grove shouldn't have functioned.

Also why did Geryon not teleport out of the Cage in the first turn. He has 4 chances to attempt it.

That part I'm less clear on as I don't recall Geryon's abilities.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 01:05 AM

For the thread at large I think it would be worthwhile to consider some of the practical complaints with vision:

If you effectively blind him, a lot of his block shuts down.

This is also true for Demogorgon, yet I've never heard that complaint leveled against him.

Demogorgon and Vecna are not equals, and Druid’s Grove impacts each one differently.

Demogorgon is difficult to straight up blind. Demogorgon has a higher AC and more Hit Points then Vecna. Demogorgon also has more crowd control then Vecna.

Demogorgon, being a huge creature, would have had it’s heads over the 10’ high fog of the Druid’s Grove spell, and thus not have been shut down, like Vecna.

Demogorgon has it’s own uses of Telekineses, can Charm and Stun, and has a once a day Feeblemind spell, and the ability to spell cast off turn via Legendary Actions.

At the end of the Encounter, Hero, (The Bard), was starting to run low on spell points, due to his Counterspells, etc.

When Vecna died, from an Upcast Flame Strike, Demogorgon would have had approximately 177 Hit Points left in the tank.

Demogorgon has moves to make, while Vecna is moldering in the ground.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 01:15 AM

Also why did Geryon not teleport out of the Cage in the first turn. He has 4 chances to attempt it.

Cutting Words. The Bard stopped Geryon from making the Saving Throw to Teleport from the Forcecage. Once the Hallow effect came online, Geryon couldn’t Teleport at all.

EDIT: I'm guessing the fight took place outdoors or underground as otherwise the Grove shouldn't have functioned..

That is correct. The Scene prompt was Vecna was leading an army to conquer the kingdom….our mission was a decapitation strike on Vecna, before war commenced.
We hit Vecna at his command tent.

Psyren

2022-06-23, 01:20 AM

We hit Vecna at his command tent.

Did the fight happen inside it?

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 01:27 AM

Did the fight happen inside it?

No. Vecna was never inside the Command Tent itself, and the tent on round 1 had a huge Stegosaurus sized hole rent into one half of the tent when the Coautl ran through while in the form of a Stegosaurus.

Not much of the tent was left, to be considered a Structure.

OvisCaedo

2022-06-23, 05:51 AM

Cutting Words. The Bard stopped Geryon from making the Saving Throw to Teleport from the Forcecage. Once the Hallow effect came online, Geryon couldn’t Teleport at all.

Cutting words doesn't actually work on saving throws. Though I also thought it did for quite a while! That aside, the bigger mistake made on the Geryon's side might have been not choosing to use any of its legendary resistances to escape the cage immediately. I suppose the GM thought they'd get to keep trying and wanted to save the legendary resistances for later, though, which makes sense.

...Though looking at the Hallow spell, which I never have before, it also seems like it's supposed to offer saving throws against its additional effects every turn? Perhaps it was ruled otherwise because of being brought on by Divine Intervention? Which would be ESPECIALLY generous given that the effects of Divine Intervention are the DM's choice to begin with and out of player hands. Though, I suppose it also only makes sense for the god to choose something helpful!

ff7hero

2022-06-23, 06:09 AM

At the end of the Encounter, Hero, (The Bard), was starting to run low on spell points, due to his Counterspells, etc.

Actually it was the Simulacrum running on dregs (and even he had two more Counterspells in him). Real Bard had (iirc) 85 SP left, so 17 Counterspells, and he was happily resigned to using Vicious Mockery at that point to conserve them.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-23, 06:32 AM

What's stopping you from changing the spells in Vecna's block if that's part of what you like about Acererak?
Nothing, but that's the whole point. What is worth an npc stat block if I have to change it all?
I know exactly what I need to do in order to go from high level mook to Archlich worth of it's title, the problem is that I have to do it in the first place.
An npc block should give me less work, not more.

I wasn't even talking about his Orb, I was talking about his staff, which is what accounts for a lot of his inherent challenge in his block vs a normal Lich.

Well the staff is his weapon, is as incorporated as afterthought is for Vecna, they are different weapons with different effects, but both can be used during combat intertwined with their actions
Is the staff a better weapon? Well that's another topic but both have their weapon and an artifact. Acererack has in his block actions to use his, Vecna has a side bar with "use it or whatever"

Having run both, I don't personally agree. You also didn't address that vision denial stops them both massively, or that Acererak is far more vulnerable to Counterspell.

Vision denial stops a lott of stuff but I did address it, I said that Acererak can at least get cover himself and spam animate dead 3 times per turn, I don't remember his full list so if he has a good leve 4+ spell to use in his turn he can also do that. In that particular encounter he also can upcast his counter spell using 9th level slot and stop druid grove all together, an option that Vecna doesn't have
And I am supper ok with a spellcasting monster to be more vulnerable to counter spell, but Acererak has actions that are not spells and are good on their own, like move the orb, cursed word, etc.
If I am allowed to change his list dispell magic would be something that he would get.

The vast majority of monsters get shut down significantly by depriving them of the ability to see you, this isn't new, this isn't unique, and this makes perfect sense. To insert something like a decent range blindsight is to make him much harder, not just for the optimising parties that pull out the strategies being talked about, but to the masses he's actually designed for.

Agreed he already have a lot of supernatural abilities that are not vulnerable to counter spell, he doesn't need special treatment in the vision denial department

Psyren

2022-06-23, 08:20 AM

What is worth an npc stat block if I have to change it all?
...
An npc block should give me less work, not more.

I'd like to challenge this philosophy in particular, specifically because I seem to see it a lot around here. The notion that a statblock becomes worthless if you have to do any kind of tailoring to your group is frankly ridiculous.

First: the simple fact is that no WotC design team can possibly calibrate every CR to match every playgroup's play and optimization skill. CR determination is closer to art than science, and even that is ultimately just one component of encounter difficulty at the end of the day. Tabletop isn't a video game where the designers have absolute control of the parameters with which players will be engaging the content going in. They have no way of knowing what your rolls will be, what items you'll have, what spells you selected, the battlefield and many other factors that can have a huge impact on the encounter difficulty. As one pointed example, if the Bard's one Wish had been successfully counterspelled by Vecna, the fight would have played out extremely differently from that point onward.

Second: Whether tailoring a statblock is "more work" is ultimately relative. Is it more work than simply running an unmodified block out of the box? Sure. Is it more work than making a challenge of your own from scratch? I think most people would say no. But if you're trying to challenge the kind of party that uses counterspelling simulacra, and considers tactics like casting 10-minute spells as an action - well, chances are that no out-of-the-box WotC challenge is going to be sufficient for a group like that anyway unless you calibrate it well above the book guidelines. So if you're going to need to customize something anyway, it's safe to say that customizing an existing block gives you an easier starting point than inventing a brand new hard monster from nothing.

No. Vecna was never inside the Command Tent itself, and the tent on round 1 had a huge Stegosaurus sized hole rent into one half of the tent when the Coautl ran through while in the form of a Stegosaurus.

Not much of the tent was left, to be considered a Structure.

He was leading an army you said, and you attacked him outdoors at his tent? Where were they? Was he the only caster in it?

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 10:13 AM

He was leading an army you said, and you attacked him outdoors at his tent? Where were they? Was he the only caster in it?

The idea was to Playtest Vecna…not break out the old AD&D Battlesystem, and recreate the Battle of Five armies.

The DM was devoting an hour or Prep time to the scenario.
The limitations of people’s everyday lives, means a limited scope.

The very 1st post of this thread has the cast list.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-23, 10:27 AM

I'd like to challenge this philosophy in particular, specifically because I seem to see it a lot around here. The notion that a statblock becomes worthless if you have to do any kind of tailoring to your group is frankly ridiculous.

First: the simple fact is that no WotC design team can possibly calibrate every CR to match every playgroup's play and optimization skill. CR determination is closer to art than science, and even that is ultimately just one component of encounter difficulty at the end of the day. Tabletop isn't a video game where the designers have absolute control of the parameters with which players will be engaging the content going in. They have no way of knowing what your rolls will be, what items you'll have, what spells you selected, the battlefield and many other factors that can have a huge impact on the encounter difficulty. As one pointed example, if the Bard's one Wish had been successfully counterspelled by Vecna, the fight would have played out extremely differently from that point onward.

I haven't said that at all. In my posts I have made abundantly clear that I DM for a 9 men lvl 15 party AND am running SKT to them. I HAVE to tailor almost EVERYTHING, be the encounters (adding more monsters so it becomes more challenging) to the monsters themselves, Be Imyrith who I had to slightly change, making her more true to what Imyrith should be and not able to be defeated when she showed up in the Eye of the All father, or chief Guh who ended up being an aerial battle ( do not ask). So yeah I am used to it and I do it ALL THE TIME because i have to, there is no way WOTC will do something appropriate to 9 15th level players and I am not expecting then to do that.
The problem is when a monster is objectively weaker than it should be (and Vecna is) and objectively do not represent the kind of creature that it should be representing (and Vecna dont). For Imyrith and Ghu I had to tweak. For Vecna I would have to go deeper, look at previous iterations where his powers where better represented and the only thing making my job easier is because I have both Acererak and Halaster stats block so I can see what an epic spellcaster actually look like.
Changing ALL is not the same thing as changing, tweaking, adapting

Second: Whether tailoring a statblock is "more work" is ultimately relative. Is it more work than simply running an unmodified block out of the box? Sure. Is it more work than making a challenge of your own from scratch? I think most people would say no. But if you're trying to challenge the kind of party that uses counterspelling simulacra, and considers tactics like casting 10-minute spells as an action - well, chances are that no out-of-the-box WotC challenge is going to be sufficient for a group like that anyway unless you calibrate it well above the book guidelines. So if you're going to need to customize something anyway, it's safe to say that customizing an existing block gives you an easier starting point than inventing a brand new hard monster from nothing.

Yes but for that you need a good starting point to begin with. And thats why I am so critic of these new stats block to begin with. They are not a problem for me, because I have enough experience under my wing. Being Dming for over 20 years now and a lot of high level stuff from 3rd edition (up to 20, without the game falling apart) and now high level stuff from 5th edition I am supper used to change things. When Volo guide to monsters came out it helped a lot because I could use lots of npcs there that MM didn't had and didn't had to build then from scratch like I was doing. Cleric enemy? here goes war priest swapping an specific spell here or there, maybe a different channel divinity. Wizards? they are all there with references for the subclass abilities, warlocks too a paladin with smites and all. Good models, good starting points helps a lot. The new design, for me, are not good starting points and do not have a clear path to improve or ramp up the chalange they present, Vecna at least still have the book, but that will not get you far.

Psyren

2022-06-23, 10:31 AM

The idea was to Playtest Vecna…not break out the old AD&D Battlesystem, and recreate the Battle of Five armies.

The DM was devoting an hour or Prep time to the scenario.
The limitations of people’s everyday lives, means a limited scope.

The very 1st post of this thread has the cast list.

Yeah I get that, but questioning the premise/conditions has merit if we're to derive meaningful conclusions from the experiment.

To wit: you devised a scenario where Vecna would reasonably be caught outdoors and coverless far from any traditional base of power. That's fine, but then you consequently stripped away any reasons/advantages he might have for being in such an unconventional/compromising location. In other words, the whole point of being in a command tent is so he can, well, be near the thing he's commanding, i.e. his army. So having none of them get involved as their general fought tooth and nail for his existence for is a teensy bit questionable as intelligence/difficulty goes.

I haven't said that at all. In my posts I have made abundantly clear that I DM for a 9 men lvl 15 party AND am running SKT to them. I HAVE to tailor almost EVERYTHING, be the encounters (adding more monsters so it becomes more challenging) to the monsters themselves, Be Imyrith who I had to slightly change, making her more true to what Imyrith should be and not able to be defeated when she showed up in the Eye of the All father, or chief Guh who ended up being an aerial battle ( do not ask). So yeah I am used to it and I do it ALL THE TIME because i have to, there is no way WOTC will do something appropriate to 9 15th level players and I am not expecting then to do that.
The problem is when a monster is objectively weaker than it should be (and Vecna is) and objectively do not represent the kind of creature that it should be representing (and Vecna dont). For Imyrith and Ghu I had to tweak. For Vecna I would have to go deeper, look at previous iterations where his powers where better represented and the only thing making my job easier is because I have both Acererak and Halaster stats block so I can see what an epic spellcaster actually look like.
Changing ALL is not the same thing as changing, tweaking, adapting

Yes but for that you need a good starting point to begin with. And thats why I am so critic of these new stats block to begin with. They are not a problem for me, because I have enough experience under my wing. Being Dming for over 20 years now and a lot of high level stuff from 3rd edition (up to 20, without the game falling apart) and now high level stuff from 5th edition I am supper used to change things. When Volo guide to monsters came out it helped a lot because I could use lots of npcs there that MM didn't had and didn't had to build then from scratch like I was doing. Cleric enemy? here goes war priest swapping an specific spell here or there, maybe a different channel divinity. Wizards? they are all there with references for the subclass abilities, warlocks too a paladin with smites and all. Good models, good starting points helps a lot. The new design, for me, are not good starting points and do not have a clear path to improve or ramp up the chalange they present, Vecna at least still have the book, but that will not get you far.

There's a lot of opinions in here being prefaced with "objectively." But the main thing I wanted you to acknowledge, which you did, is that tailoring difficulty from the printed blocks is necessary - especially so if you're DMing for a 9-person optimized party. That doesn't match what you said earlier (the blanket question "what worth is a NPC statblock if I have to change it all") but this take is more nuanced at least.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 11:45 AM

Yeah I get that, but questioning the premise/conditions has merit if we're to derive meaningful conclusions from the experiment.

To wit: you devised a scenario where Vecna would reasonably be caught outdoors and coverless far from any traditional base of power. That's fine, but then you consequently stripped away any reasons/advantages he might have for being in such an unconventional/compromising location. In other words, the whole point of being in a command tent is so he can, well, be near the thing he's commanding, i.e. his army. So having none of them get involved as their general fought tooth and nail for his existence for is a teensy bit questionable as intelligence/difficulty goes.

This seems to me to be an excellent example, of demotivating the public, by being a too rigorous interlocutor.🃏

If you want to declare a scenario, that was ran on a Tuesday-ish Evening, between 4 employed adults, scattered across the globe from California to Wales, was insufficiently nuanced or realized…that is certainly your right.

From my vantage, it feels a bit tacky and crass.
I’m not trying to incite any rancor, but Psyren, you are backhandedly insulting the DM, whom put the effort in to entertain us.

I feel, obliged, to defend them.

It was a test, not a GenCon game.
Thank you for sharing your opinion, though.

Perhaps, in the future, the Playground can read an account of your Vecna, test scenario. I would certainly like to.

Be Well, good Luck, and good gaming to you all!

Psyren

2022-06-23, 12:11 PM

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-23, 01:40 PM

I... didn't say a single thing about your DM, so declaring that I'm insulting them is odd to say the least. The "intelligence" remark was about Vecna's tactics not necessarily aligning with his reputation in the fiction or his stats, not about anyone in the real world. If you or he took it that way I do apologize, but I can clearly state that wasn't my intent.

And I'm all for a fun game between adults (I've participated in several after all), but the term "playtest" - which you chose to use, not me - does imply some degree of rigor in the premise, and I don't see anything wrong with asking questions about said rigor. Had you instead said "Vecna One-Shot" for example, I would have likely calibrated accordingly.

What exactly is the difference between a one shot and a play test in your mind? They ran the statblock as presented with reasonable support for vecna, the DM is competent, at least I'm incredibly confident that Max was trying to defeat the party.

I feel like you're unhappy with the results and you're trying to diminish this into something that doesn't highlight one of the statblocks core weakness. It's not really your place to decide how rigorous a test it needs to be to yield meaningful conclusions.

Angelalex242

2022-06-23, 01:49 PM

What Paladins lack in mobility, they make up in damage. I usually have winged boots lying around so I can fly, and there's always misty step for that extra bit of movement. But the noble knight, with Holy Avenger in hand, a 22 Charisma, Ancients anti spell damage aura, spell smites and divine smites on his sword, sentinel and mage slayer to keep the enemy from running...we're talking about 100+ damage per hit, and lots of chances to use it. Throw in a belt of Storm Giant Strength, and...well...

Psyren

2022-06-23, 02:16 PM

What exactly is the difference between a one shot and a play test in your mind? They ran the statblock as presented with reasonable support for vecna, the DM is competent, at least I'm incredibly confident that Max was trying to defeat the party.

I feel like you're unhappy with the results and you're trying to diminish this into something that doesn't highlight one of the statblocks core weakness. It's not really your place to decide how rigorous a test it needs to be to yield meaningful conclusions.

Let's take a breath here; I didn't say anything about the DM's competence either. I was merely asking questions about the particulars of the fight. The OP's group did nothing wrong, but I think there's a lesson to be learned here for others who may want a more challenging fight for a future optimized party. And while everyone's definition of "optimized" likely varies, I'm fairly confident that this group might be in the upper half of that spectrum based on some of the facts/tactics that were shared. Again, this is completely fine.

animorte

2022-06-23, 02:31 PM

It's not really your place to decide how rigorous a test it needs to be to yield meaningful conclusions.

On this note I think that several tests should be made on varying degrees of difficulty. Different party compositions, different (sub)classes, different environments, etc.

Just like any test seeking legitimate results, it requires multiple factors and scenarios to make valid judgements.

ecarden

2022-06-23, 04:25 PM

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 04:27 PM

Let's take a breath here; I didn't say anything about the DM's competence either. I was merely asking questions about the particulars of the fight. The OP's group did nothing wrong, but I think there's a lesson to be learned here for others who may want a more challenging fight for a future optimized party. And while everyone's definition of "optimized" likely varies, I'm fairly confident that this group might be in the upper half of that spectrum based on some of the facts/tactics that were shared. Again, this is completely fine.

The daily XP budget for the three PCs in question is 95,000 adjusted XP.
The DMG Deadly difficulty threshold for them was 32,400 adjusted XP.

A fight against a CR 26 (Vecna), a CR 22 (Geryon), a CR 9 (Korbal Broach), and a CR 6 (Bauchelain), is 138,900 actual XP and 277,800 adjusted XP, so this fight was Deadly x 8.5, or nearly three times the expected total difficulty for three adventuring days in a single fight!

The participant breakdown was in the first post.

It certainly seems like you jumped to a conclusion that the Encounter must have been easy, based on your line of questioning, and failed to appreciate the foes.

Deadly X 8.5 Encounter. I think that is a decent baseline.
Given this, I find this quote:

“ The OP's group did nothing wrong, but I think there's a lesson to be learned here for others who may want a more challenging fight for a future optimized party”

……to be somewhat, patronizing.

Again, I’m not trying to be rancorous, I’m just attempting to convey how the posts are coming across to me.

Feel free to run a Deadly x30…would love the details.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 04:55 PM

Was there a reason he didn't fly up and out of the fog? Alternatively, choosing to succeed on the save vs hallow and dimension door out and fight the battle literally anywhere else would make this a lot harder.

Vecna was at times Restrained via Telekinesis, generally had a Psi Warrior next to them, was unable to see due to Fog, and was hemmed in by Counterspells.

I was incorrect before, when I stated the Bard was out of spells.
The Bard Simulacrum was down to 10 Spell Points according to the player.
The Bard, itself, still had plenty of Spell Points left.

I missed that Vecna received a Saving Throw for the special Hallow effect, and the table took my word. Vecna could have used a Legendary Resistance to end the Extra Dimensional/Teleport Travel Ban.

I’m not sure, it would have made much difference.
Vecna’s innate Teleports require Line of Sight, and Dimension Door and Fly were being Counterspelled.

Vecna only lived 3 more rounds after the Hallow effect went up.
If Vecna had broken the effect, it would just have sped up the use of offensive magics and Anti-Magic Field.

Envyus

2022-06-23, 05:03 PM

Nothing, but that's the whole point. What is worth an npc stat block if I have to change it all?

You just said one of the things you do with Spellcasting monsters is change out their spells.

Envyus

2022-06-23, 05:04 PM

Cutting Words. The Bard stopped Geryon from making the Saving Throw to Teleport from the Forcecage. Once the Hallow effect came online, Geryon couldn’t Teleport at all.

Four times? Geryon can teleport as a Legendary action.

Envyus

2022-06-23, 05:12 PM

Vecna was at times Restrained via Telekinesis, generally had a Psi Warrior next to them, was unable to see due to Fog, and was hemmed in by Counterspells.

I was incorrect before, when I stated the Bard was out of spells.
The Bard Simulacrum was down to 10 Spell Points according to the player.
The Bard, itself, still had plenty of Spell Points left.

I missed that Vecna received a Saving Throw for the special Hallow effect, and the table took my word. Vecna could have used a Legendary Resistance to end the Extra Dimensional/Teleport Travel Ban.

I’m not sure, it would have made much difference.
Vecna’s innate Teleports require Line of Sight, and Dimension Door and Fly were being Counterspelled.

Vecna only lived 3 more rounds after the Hallow effect went up.
If Vecna had broken the effect, it would just have sped up the use of offensive magics and Anti-Magic Field.
I still think that Truesight should allow one to see through magic fog. Everything is dependent on the fog.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 05:12 PM

Four times? Geryon can teleport as a Legendary action.

Luck is a fickle mistress.

I’ve seen a Champion Fighter crit on 5 out of 6 attacks….
….”I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... ”🃏🕊💧🌧⛈🦄

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. dO-7RguR_WyNa-LPYW7ScAHaFk%26pid%3DApi&f=1

animorte

2022-06-23, 05:17 PM

Essentially what I have gathered is that a very experienced group of players know exactly what they’re doing, very knowledgeable about how the game and their characters work.

Another thing to take into account is how familiar the players may have been with the stat lock prior to this play test, if at all.

Approaching it with both of those points in mind, imagine a group of players with a bit less experience and no knowledge of the stat block. It probably looks more difficult.

(Another note: I’m not sure exactly how relevant CR/Exp are to difficulty, as there have been other threads on the matter of newer stuff getting easier comparatively than older BBEGs of similar CR/Exp. But I don’t really care to ignite that debate, as I have used them as blurry guidelines for quite some time.)

Envyus

2022-06-23, 05:18 PM

Luck is a fickle mistress.

And he did not use a Legendary Resistance once?

ff7hero

2022-06-23, 05:33 PM

I hadn't read the stat block, but knew I'd be facing "Vecna," and did plan accordingly.

This isn't to say I built my character specifically to fight Vecna. It's actually a slightly tweaked version of a character I'm playing in a weekly game.

Dr.Samurai

2022-06-23, 05:44 PM

I only play barbarians, the strongest and coolest of all the classes, so I'm not overly familiar with the little tricks and gimmicks that spellcasters use :smallamused:.

I get the sense that Wish --> Druid's Grove is probably not going to be a common go-to for most parties when fighting BBEGs, but I'm guessing that there are probably other spells that could provide the same line of sight stuff that Druid's Grove did. Are there? The difference is that Druid's Grove essentially "blinded" Vecna while allowing the party to see normally.

Would Blindsight make all the difference here in general or is this specific to using Druid's Grove as an Action?

Psyren

2022-06-23, 05:55 PM

It certainly seems like you jumped to a conclusion that the Encounter must have been easy, based on your line of questioning, and failed to appreciate the foes.

Deadly X 8.5 Encounter. I think that is a decent baseline.
Given this, I find this quote:

“ The OP's group did nothing wrong, but I think there's a lesson to be learned here for others who may want a more challenging fight for a future optimized party”

……to be somewhat, patronizing.

Again, I’m not trying to be rancorous, I’m just attempting to convey how the posts are coming across to me.

I believe the statement you bolded - that a lesson can be learned here - is indeed factually accurate. I say that without any trace of rancor or negativity.

Whatever the numbers you calculated are, the fact remains that the fight was all-but-won with two spells, give or take several subsequent rounds of counterspell spam. I think that's valuable data and I absolutely appreciate this thread for conveying it. If that appreciation isn't coming through, I again apologize.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-23, 06:02 PM

Psyren, thank you for the post. I truly appreciate it!

KorvinStarmast

2022-06-23, 06:33 PM

But the main thing I wanted you to acknowledge, which you did, is that tailoring difficulty from the printed blocks is necessary - especially so if you're DMing for a 9-person optimized party. That doesn't match what you said earlier (the blanket question "what worth is a NPC statblock if I have to change it all") but this take is more nuanced at least. It's not the critic who counts, it's the man in the arena. I missed the play test due to RL time constraints. The three who were in on it are capable and knowledgeable. They were a three person organized party. I find a goodly portion of your critique less than helpful.

FWIW: I ran an 8 person level 8 party versus a Mind Flayer Lich last night (and of course, with the various distractions that on line play presents, never once used Shield because sometimes, if you play a high CR monster whom you have not played before, you can't get wholly in character). I had swapped out Thunderwave for Alarm (his psionic blast is way more powerful than thunderwave) and I swapped out Globe of Invulnerability for True Seeing. (He had truesight on for the whole fight).

Party lost one to disintegrate, and lost one to Finger of Death. The cloudkill broke up the party after first contact on both sides of the poisonous field. (Cave complex, not a white room).

Party defeated lich, after having dealt with a swarm of wraiths, initial contact with lich, a counter attack by undead after lich DD'd (lich took a bunch of damage and came back to try and surprise the party after the ogre zombies blocked the party for two turns). I had to decide whether or not to use PWK, but as it worked out that decision was pre empted.
I did get to use fireball as a legendary action. :smallbiggrin:

Monks. Stun. It only has to happen once.

Psyren

2022-06-23, 06:51 PM

It's not the critic who counts, it's the man in the arena. I missed the play test due to RL time constraints. The three who were in on it are capable and knowledgeable. They were a three person organized party. I find a goodly portion of your critique less than helpful.

The post you quoted was responding to Rafael's 9-person party bona fides, not the playtest.

And Envyus' post:

You just said one of the things you do with Spellcasting monsters is change out their spells.

captures what I was getting at.

(Also, I wasn't aware anyone was looking for "help" with a session that has already taken place. I was asking questions for my own understanding, not to try and... help with an event which already occurred?)

ecarden

2022-06-23, 07:52 PM

Vecna was at times Restrained via Telekinesis, generally had a Psi Warrior next to them, was unable to see due to Fog, and was hemmed in by Counterspells.

So, one player was spending their action every round to keep him restrained? And I admit to some confusion on how he was hemmed in by counterspell when he could use Dread Counterspell three times a round?

I missed that Vecna received a Saving Throw for the special Hallow effect, and the table took my word. Vecna could have used a Legendary Resistance to end the Extra Dimensional/Teleport Travel Ban.

I’m not sure, it would have made much difference.
Vecna’s innate Teleports require Line of Sight, and Dimension Door and Fly were being Counterspelled.

I mean, he could Dread Counterspell the counterspell, right? So both the Bard and the Simulacrum were losing a counterspell and their reaction on his turn in order to have a chance at actually counterspelling and therefore maybe didn't have reactions to deal with the other casters?

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-23, 08:06 PM

So, one player was spending their action every round to keep him restrained? And I admit to some confusion on how he was hemmed in by counterspell when he could use Dread Counterspell three times a round?

I mean, he could Dread Counterspell the counterspell, right? So both the Bard and the Simulacrum were losing a counterspell and their reaction on his turn in order to have a chance at actually counterspelling and therefore maybe didn't have reactions to deal with the other casters?

He only gets one reaction a turn so if one eats a dread counterspell the other goes off, of Vecna fails to counter the first then the second isn't even used.

ff7hero

2022-06-23, 08:15 PM

Dread Counterspell also requires Line of Sight.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-23, 08:27 PM

You just said one of the things you do with Spellcasting monsters is change out their spells.

Yes, changing SPELLS is not changing ALL. And some stats blocks have good spell lists so I can use them as it is. The paladin, the war priest, some of the wizards, the death knight, the hags, all come to mind as blocks that I simply used as they where and was very satisfied .

For Vecna I would need to create a spell list in the first place, because he dosent have one, his spell/day wound remain as an extra, I would also need to give him legendary actions and search for custom spells his older stats blocks may had so I could convert then to 5th and then decide if they went to spells prepared, rechargeable abilities or legendary actions. After that I would buff up that HP because there a lot of people that can do over 100+ damage in their turn, give him the damn shield spell because his AC is a joke. And then you would have something worth of the name Vecna and CR 26 and able to pose a challenge to a 20 lvl group.
To me, this is a lot, and I woundt have to do all that if I didnt find the statblock so lacking

Kane0

2022-06-23, 09:01 PM

In place of Flight of the Damned, give him Fear and a retyped Cone of Cold
In place of Rotten Fate, give him Finger of Death
In place of Vile Teleport, give him Misty Step
In place of Dread Counterspell and Fell Rebuke give him Counterspell and Hellish Rebuke

For his action, let him cast a spell plus make one attack or use an item (Afterthought, the BoVD, scroll, etc)

3 legendary actions, which can be used to cast a spell or take an ordianry action like making an attack, using an item, moving via dash, etc. Alternatively he can use legendary actions as additional reactions.

Give him an unlimited number of 5th level slots plus two or three 6ths/7ths and one or two 8ths/9ths

Special feature: can cast as many spells as he likes regardless of the BA rule and automatically succeed on concentration checks

Special feature: every time he casts a spell as a bonus action let him heal, and every time he casts a spell as a reaction let him teleport.

Would this be mostly the same, but with actual spells that you can modify and add to?

Rafaelfras

2022-06-23, 09:34 PM

ecarden

2022-06-23, 11:00 PM

He only gets one reaction a turn so if one eats a dread counterspell the other goes off, of Vecna fails to counter the first then the second isn't even used.

That's generous. I'd have required everyone counterspelling to declare it when I announce a spell is being cast. No waiting to see if the first one works. Doesn't sound like it would have changed too much though.

Dread Counterspell also requires Line of Sight.

True. And the interaction with the Druid Grove is complicated. I'd have been inclined to say his Truesight lets him see through it, but strict RAW, I don't know that that's correct.

More generally, the one thing I might have changed is, if he's arriving because he knows combat is upon him, I'd have Globe of Invulnerability already up.

Envyus

2022-06-23, 11:21 PM

Dread Counterspell also requires Line of Sight.

So does Counterspell, so how can he be Counterspelled if he's in the fog?

Envyus

2022-06-23, 11:24 PM

Yes, changing SPELLS is not changing ALL. And some stats blocks have good spell lists so I can use them as it is. The paladin, the war priest, some of the wizards, the death knight, the hags, all come to mind as blocks that I simply used as they where and was very satisfied .

For Vecna I would need to create a spell list in the first place, because he dosent have one, his spell/day wound remain as an extra, I would also need to give him legendary actions and search for custom spells his older stats blocks may had so I could convert then to 5th and then decide if they went to spells prepared, rechargeable abilities or legendary actions. After that I would buff up that HP because there a lot of people that can do over 100+ damage in their turn, give him the damn shield spell because his AC is a joke. And then you would have something worth of the name Vecna and CR 26 and able to pose a challenge to a 20 lvl group.
To me, this is a lot, and I woundt have to do all that if I didnt find the statblock so lacking

Huh. So you can just change some of Vecna's spells that's the exact same thing. Why would he need a spell list. You can just add or change spells for his spell per day. He does not need Legendary Actions.

Also you adding too much would buff him above CR 26. Vecna follows the math and is a CR 26.

In place of Flight of the Damned, give him Fear and a retyped Cone of Cold
In place of Rotten Fate, give him Finger of Death
In place of Vile Teleport, give him Misty Step
In place of Dread Counterspell and Fell Rebuke give him Counterspell and Hellish Rebuke

For his action, let him cast a spell plus make one attack or use an item (Afterthought, the BoVD, scroll, etc)

3 legendary actions, which can be used to cast a spell or take an ordianry action like making an attack, using an item, moving via dash, etc. Alternatively he can use legendary actions as additional reactions.

Give him an unlimited number of 5th level slots plus two or three 6ths/7ths and one or two 8ths/9ths

Special feature: can cast as many spells as he likes regardless of the BA rule and automatically succeed on concentration checks

Special feature: every time he casts a spell as a bonus action let him heal, and every time he casts a spell as a reaction let him teleport.

Would this be mostly the same, but with actual spells that you can modify and add to?

All of that seems annoying. Just keep him as he is. And add whatever spells you want to his per day spells. Giving him tons of slots just makes thins harder to manage.
Also most of the abilities you are recommending swapping out are weaker than what he already has, and also can be counterspelled.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-23, 11:47 PM

So does Counterspell, so how can he be Counterspelled if he's in the fog?

You've missed the required reading on Druid's Grove

Envyus

2022-06-23, 11:52 PM

You've missed the required reading on Druid's Grove

Yep I missed that.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-24, 12:03 AM

Huh. So you can just change some of Vecna's spells that's the exact same thing. Why would he need a spell list. You can just add or change spells for his spell per day. He does not need Legendary Actions.

Also you adding too much would buff him above CR 26. Vecna follows the math and is a CR 26.

If you are going to ignore everything I wrote and dismiss it as "it's all the same thing" we will have a hard time.
It's NOT the same thing.
Adding spells x/day is a constraint. You can't up cast it, you cant use it again you can't change mid battle to another set of tactics. Slots are flexible, slots allow you to cast spells in different orders of magnitude depending what you need and don't let you empty handed if you get a counter spell or dispell magic. It really isn't the same thing at all.
He absolutely does need legendary actions. It is his biggest flaw. It makes him super vulnerable to anything that don't trigger his reactions or worse things that take off reactions, he will sit there without nothing to do until his turn.
And you can buff him alright, aí don't know what math he follows but definitely he is way bellow what would be appropriate for Cr 26
As this playtest made abundantly clear.

All of that seems annoying. Just keep him as he is. And add whatever spells you want to his per day spells. Giving him tons of slots just makes thins harder to manage.
Also most of the abilities you are recommending swapping out are weaker than what he already has, and also can be counterspelled.

Thanks, but no thanks, if I wanted a high level mook that would die before turn 2 I would pick something else. If you like him as he is, more power to you, is not like WOTC will change anything anyway based on a random forum post. If I ever choose to run Vecna he will be a proper lich, and I don't think having spell slots makes things that hard to manage. What I don't like is not be able to upcast hold person and target the whole party because I can only use it twice per day for some reason.
Also I have no problem whatsoever that a spellcasting monster is vulnerable to counter spell

OvisCaedo

2022-06-24, 12:13 AM

In fairness, most conventional spellcasters would also struggle somewhat with an instant Druid Grove; massive numbers of spells and abilities rely on "target/area you can see", and the spell's fog is pretty busted in that regard.

Though I suppose with conventional slots, one would have the option of upcasting their dispel so that it is not guaranteed to be counterspelled, and a creature with legendary action spellcasting might get more attempts per round than the average party has reactions available to counterspell with.

Kane0

2022-06-24, 12:23 AM

I suppose Dimension Door is there if nothing else, you don't need to see the destination.

Envyus

2022-06-24, 03:20 AM

If you are going to ignore everything I wrote and dismiss it as "it's all the same thing" we will have a hard time.
It's NOT the same thing.
Adding spells x/day is a constraint. You can't up cast it, you cant use it again you can't change mid battle to another set of tactics. Slots are flexible, slots allow you to cast spells in different orders of magnitude depending what you need and don't let you empty handed if you get a counter spell or dispell magic. It really isn't the same thing at all.
He absolutely does need legendary actions. It is his biggest flaw. It makes him super vulnerable to anything that don't trigger his reactions or worse things that take off reactions, he will sit there without nothing to do until his turn.
And you can buff him alright, aí don't know what math he follows but definitely he is way bellow what would be appropriate for Cr 26
As this playtest made abundantly clear.

Thanks, but no thanks, if I wanted a high level mook that would die before turn 2 I would pick something else. If you like him as he is, more power to you, is not like WOTC will change anything anyway based on a random forum post. If I ever choose to run Vecna he will be a proper lich, and I don't think having spell slots makes things that hard to manage. What I don't like is not be able to upcast hold person and target the whole party because I can only use it twice per day for some reason.
Also I have no problem whatsoever that a spellcasting monster is vulnerable to counter spell

It is the same thing. You don't need to upcast it, you can just give a caster several one or two a day spells of high level or at wills. And like many monsters at this point have gotten, just say they cast the spell at a certain level. Say he can cast Hold Monster twice at a day but as an eighth level spell, there he now has high level group stunning. Also using a higher level slot can just as easily leave you empty handed after a counterspell.
The reactions are for getting him out of danger and work well for that. And if he does not do anything until his turn so what, it means he was not hit or had spells cast at him. Having a weakness is not that big an issue, you said yourself you don't mind a monster having a weakness to counterspell, so what's the issue with a monster having a weakness to having their reactions shut off.
You just don't know the Math for CRs, so the fact that you think he is weaker than a CR 26 should be, shows you have no idea what you are doing. The Playtest has also not made too much clear other than that limiting Vecna's vision can mess him up, the same as many other monsters. But there is debate on if Truesight would have allowed him to see through the magic fog that screwed him over, which is all this came down to.

Considering it took a good many turns to kill him, clearly he is not dying before turn 2. Also the way he is would probably hurt your 9 person group pretty bad (And monsters are not really built to be able to handle that many Players). Like what is the composition of your group.

Envyus

2022-06-24, 03:21 AM

Psyren

2022-06-24, 09:14 AM

I suppose Dimension Door is there if nothing else, you don't need to see the destination.

That would have likely failed to get past their arsenal of counterspells.

It also requires fighting outside, which is an odd place to encounter Vecna. I always imagine him in a tower or Tomb.

I mentioned this disconnect too, and got told I was insulting the DM for bringing it up :smallconfused:

KorvinStarmast

2022-06-24, 09:38 AM

I mentioned this disconnect too

It also requires fighting outside, which is an odd place to encounter Vecna. I always imagine him in a tower or Tomb.
Always expect the unexpected. ~Bruce Lee~

Psyren

2022-06-24, 11:08 AM

Always expect the unexpected. ~Bruce Lee~

"Thus the expert in battle moves the enemy, and is not moved by him." -Sun Tzu

(Also Sun Tzu: "Be where your enemy is not.")

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-24, 11:34 AM

I mentioned this disconnect too, and got told I was insulting the DM for bringing it up :smallconfused:

I’m sorry your feelings are hurt. I never intended for that.

Ultimately the decision to have Vecna be faced only in the deepest, darkest mausoleum, or to face a conquering Vecna at the head of a terrible army, is an aesthetic choice and arbitrary.

Part of the threat of Cosmic evil, is it at some point, it comes to you…e.g….Stranger Things.

A large battlespace, might help Vecna, given Vecna’s mobility, (and healing tied to mobility). Conversely, a small battlespace might be a detriment to Vecna.

The following thread on ENworld, (of which I glanced at the first battle), shows the pitfalls of what happens when Vecna faces off against an Adventuring Party in a 60’ Diameter room with pillars.

The party Diviner Wizard, used the pillars to block Line of Sight, to Ready Spells. It appears to have been effective, in bypassing Dread Counterspell.

Vecna was grappled, dragged into an Anti-Magic Field and burned by the PCs, using oil and flint from their Adventuring Packs.

That ENworld battle was Party vs a Lone Vecna.
Not Vecna, plus Wizards and an Archdevil.
https://www.enworld.org/threads/vs-vecna-battle-simulations.689155/

Psyren

2022-06-24, 12:31 PM

I’m sorry your feelings are hurt. I never intended for that.

Not at all "hurt," just bemused/amused at the vitriol from simple questions :smalltongue:

Vecna was grappled,

Grapple is an attack which should trigger his Fell Rebuke.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-24, 12:46 PM

Grapple is an attack which should trigger his Fell Rebuke.

I concur.

That, stated, a ruling, that a Grapple doesn’t, isn’t an infeasible proposition. I can envision someone else reaching that same RAW Conclusion.

Ultimately, it seems like it comes down to how much of a Kobayashi Maru scenario, one wants to make Vecna be.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. bu6MbVNP2mV3-xVmcunEUAHaFd%26pid%3DApi&f=1

x3n0n

2022-06-24, 12:51 PM

Grapple is an attack which should trigger his Fell Rebuke.

A shove/grapple is typically applied by replacing one of the attacks in an Attack action, but the grapple itself is not typically considered something that can "hit" (which involves an attack roll vs an AC, instead of an ability check contest).

(That is, not triggering Fell Rebuke with a grapple is a reasonable ruling, IMO, and probably what I'd rule.)

Dork_Forge

2022-06-24, 01:40 PM

In regards to the set up:

It was a way to encounter Vecna, it's not what I would personally use him for in games, but it's what the DM chose to set up for the scenario and so what we went with. Here is some detail:

We were told we could go a longer way with more, easier encounters, or a shorter way with fewer, harder encounters. We chose the harder but shorter way, which turned out to be attacking his command tent.

I don't have the dimensions, but it was pretty huge for a tent, with a throne inside, the MotM Conjurer, Necromancer and Geryon. No guards were placed outside, and there were no wards or spells protecting the area.

We used Pass without Trace to sneak into the tent to see what was up, then attacked aiming to take them out before he arrived.

Vecna arrived when an irl 60 minute timer expired, at this time he was placed on the far side of the map outside of the tent, at which point my Psi Warrior charged him to not give him any breathing room. This required me to Action Surge Dash and use my BA flight to get far enough (I needed 90ft of movement to reach him). I'm not entirely down with all detail because my PC froze, but my Psi Warrior basically just kept harrying Vecna with three Sunblade attacks and attempting to prone him.

Offer: I want to run more simulations with him, so if anyone is interested in seeing how they do against Vecna (using Roll20 for tabletop/dice and Discord for Voice) then hit me up, on the condition that you have to play in as much ignorance of his statblock as you can muster.

Psyren

2022-06-24, 03:27 PM

A shove/grapple is typically applied by replacing one of the attacks in an Attack action, but the grapple itself is not typically considered something that can "hit" (which involves an attack roll vs an AC, instead of an ability check contest).

(That is, not triggering Fell Rebuke with a grapple is a reasonable ruling, IMO, and probably what I'd rule.)

I don't disagree you could rule this way (since "hit" is not rigidly defined, and the attack rules only say to "resolve the attack") but I'm fairly confident in not doing so. Not all attacks have to hit AC to be attacks (PHB 194) and grapple is explicitly a "special melee attack" (PHB 195).

We were told we could go a longer way with more, easier encounters, or a shorter way with fewer, harder encounters. We chose the harder but shorter way, which turned out to be attacking his command tent.

Now I'm curious what the "easier encounter" would have been...

Dork_Forge

2022-06-24, 03:36 PM

Now I'm curious what the "easier encounter" would have been...

-4 Minotaur skeletons and 6 skulks

-An archway with a Symbol of Sleep on it, when it activates two earth elementals appear

- The ritual cave itself with: tw o shadar kai shadow dancers (4 beads of force each), shadar kai soul monger (with amulet for bonus action steel wind strike) under a seeming spell, with the MotM Conjurer and Necormancer from the other encounter as back up (there was also verticality and environmental hazards to this

- Presumably Vecna too

After doing the 'hard way' and seeing this one, I thought this one was harder imo

ff7hero

2022-06-24, 04:38 PM

Offer: I want to run more simulations with him, so if anyone is interested in seeing how they do against Vecna (using Roll20 for tabletop/dice and Discord for Voice) then hit me up, on the condition that you have to play in as much ignorance of his statblock as you can muster.

I'd be down for that.

Envyus

2022-06-24, 05:19 PM

I don't have the dimensions, but it was pretty huge for a tent, with a throne inside, the MotM Conjurer, Necromancer and Geryon. No guards were placed outside, and there were no wards or spells protecting the area.

My thing is just the lack of Geryon doing stuff. Like appearntly Geryon was in a bubble the whole fight, but I feel he should have been able escape, and I am unsure how he was locked down the whole time.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-24, 06:16 PM

My thing is just the lack of Geryon doing stuff. Like appearntly Geryon was in a bubble the whole fight, but I feel he should have been able escape, and I am unsure how he was locked down the whole time.

The Forcecage? Unless I've missed something I don't see mention of it dropping.

Kinda hard to escape from a Forcecage.

Envyus

2022-06-24, 07:07 PM

The Forcecage? Unless I've missed something I don't see mention of it dropping.

Kinda hard to escape from a Forcecage.

He can teleport up to four times a turn, and he has a +13 on the save to escape, and he can auto succeed on the save to escape. So I am not sure how he got stuck.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-24, 08:24 PM

He can teleport up to four times a turn, and he has a +13 on the save to escape, and he can auto succeed on the save to escape. So I am not sure how he got stuck.

Ah, I think it was probably the Hallow effect then. It also offers a save but iirc it was admittedly missed in the encounter. It might have made a difference.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-24, 08:33 PM

It is the same thing. You don't need to upcast it, you can just give a caster several one or two a day spells of high level or at wills. And like many monsters at this point have gotten, just say they cast the spell at a certain level. Say he can cast Hold Monster twice at a day but as an eighth level spell, there he now has high level group stunning. Also using a higher level slot can just as easily leave you empty handed after a counterspell.
The reactions are for getting him out of danger and work well for that. And if he does not do anything until his turn so what, it means he was not hit or had spells cast at him. Having a weakness is not that big an issue, you said yourself you don't mind a monster having a weakness to counterspell, so what's the issue with a monster having a weakness to having their reactions shut off.
You just don't know the Math for CRs, so the fact that you think he is weaker than a CR 26 should be, shows you have no idea what you are doing. The Playtest has also not made too much clear other than that limiting Vecna's vision can mess him up, the same as many other monsters. But there is debate on if Truesight would have allowed him to see through the magic fog that screwed him over, which is all this came down to.

Considering it took a good many turns to kill him, clearly he is not dying before turn 2. Also the way he is would probably hurt your 9 person group pretty bad (And monsters are not really built to be able to handle that many Players). Like what is the composition of your group.
So I have to give a caster every single spell that I may or may not want to cast, an amount of times per day if I would like to use more than once, I need also to think about the spell levels that I might want to cast said spell and also take that into account and I need to do that for every single spell I might want in an encounter just to not use spells slots that are the same thing btw but this is easier... Yeah talk about having no idea what your doing.
And no, having spell slots is precisely why you are not left empty handed, having the choice to use an even higher one or one just below it to try the same effect again.
About the reactions I am not suggesting taking then out. Having legendary actions never interfered with reactions and just because he can use more than one doesn't mean he can't have legendary actions too.
The CR thing I will not even comment. You clearly are not understanding what I am trying to say and is not trying to and is just being rude about it.
About the playtest, it took then longer because there where other high Cr creatures along with Vecna.

And no he wouldn't hurt my 9 person group
We are an evoker wizard with plenty access to magic missile, an S&B Eldritch knight with a flame tongue weapon, an aasimar life cleric, an hexblade/divine soul, an assassin rogue, an soul knife rogue, an 4 e monk, an deep stalker ranger and a toten barbarian, all of them with strong magic weapons and very capable on their own, with high ranged damage and mobility, plus a healer that can heal without casting spells if he needs to, with the ranger and the warlock able to heal too if needed and all of them capable of doing a lot of damage in a single turn.
Having being their DM for over 15 years now I am well aware of what they can pull off
Vecna would be dead before the second turn

JNAProductions

2022-06-24, 08:37 PM

So I have to give a caster every single spell that I may or may not want to cast, an amount of times per day if I would like to use more than once, I need also to think about the spell levels that I might want to cast said spell and also take that into account and I need to do that for every single spell I might want in an encounter just to not use spells slots that are the same thing btw but this is easier... Yeah talk about having no idea what your doing.
And no, having spell slots is precisely why you are not left empty handed, having the choice to use an even higher one or one just below it to try the same effect again.
About the reactions I am not suggesting taking then out. Having legendary actions never interfered with reactions and just because he can use more than one doesn't mean he can't have legendary actions too.
The CR thing I will not even comment. You clearly are not understanding what I am trying to say and is not trying to and is just being rude about it.
About the playtest, it took then longer because there where other high Cr creatures along with Vecna.

And no he wouldn't hurt my 9 person group
We are an evoker wizard with plenty access to magic missile, an S&B Eldritch knight with a flame tongue weapon, an aasimar life cleric, an hexblade/divine soul, an assassin rogue, an soul knife rogue, an 4 e monk, an deep stalker ranger and a toten barbarian, all of them with strong magic weapons and very capable on their own, with high ranged damage and mobility, plus a healer that can heal without casting spells if he needs to, with the ranger and the warlock able to heal too if needed and all of them capable of doing a lot of damage in a single turn.
Having being their DM for over 15 years now I am well aware of what they can pull off
Vecna would be dead before the second turn

You mean to tell me that a group of nine level 15 PCs can handle a Hard Encounter consisting of a single glass cannon pretty easily? That... That seems fine, given that they're clearly pretty highly equipped.

ff7hero

2022-06-24, 09:24 PM

Envyus

2022-06-24, 09:26 PM

So I have to give a caster every single spell that I may or may not want to cast, an amount of times per day if I would like to use more than once, I need also to think about the spell levels that I might want to cast said spell and also take that into account and I need to do that for every single spell I might want in an encounter just to not use spells slots that are the same thing btw but this is easier... Yeah talk about having no idea what your doing.
And no, having spell slots is precisely why you are not left empty handed, having the choice to use an even higher one or one just below it to try the same effect again.
About the reactions I am not suggesting taking then out. Having legendary actions never interfered with reactions and just because he can use more than one doesn't mean he can't have legendary actions too.
The CR thing I will not even comment. You clearly are not understanding what I am trying to say and is not trying to and is just being rude about it.
About the playtest, it took then longer because there where other high Cr creatures along with Vecna.

It is easier, giving a Caster every single spell you may or may not want to cast is the exact same thing you would do with spell slots.

While there is nothing wrong with having Legendary Actions. But if they are added on depending on what they do the whole monster will probably need to be recalculated. The CR thing you don't quite get, Vecna is a proper CR 26 monster, and he matches the math of what a CR 26 should be.

There was one other high CR creature, and appearntly he just got locked away, cause people did not know how some spells worked.

ff7hero

2022-06-24, 09:39 PM

There was one other high CR creature, and appearntly he just got locked away, cause people did not know how some spells worked.

Yup, all four players at the table missed something while parsing a dozen pieces of spread out content. It happens. FWIW, I also forgot that I had Emboldening Bond, Gift of Alacrity and probably other things that hindsight hasn't revealed to me.

Not to mention the Heroes' Feast and Freedom of Movements we were buffed with neuter Geryon pretty hard by the looks of his stat block. Also not to mention that if he had escaped the 'cage, he could have been re-caged after the Grove went up.

Envyus

2022-06-24, 09:56 PM

Yup, all four players at the table missed something while parsing a dozen pieces of spread out content. It happens. FWIW, I also forgot that I had Emboldening Bond, Gift of Alacrity and probably other things that hindsight hasn't revealed to me.

Not to mention the Heroes' Feast and Freedom of Movements we were buffed with neuter Geryon pretty hard by the looks of his stat block. Also not to mention that if he had escaped the 'cage, he could have been re-caged after the Grove went up.

I don't mean to criticize too much. I was not there so I don't know how everything worked.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-24, 10:13 PM

You mean to tell me that a group of nine level 15 PCs can handle a Hard Encounter consisting of a single glass cannon pretty easily? That... That seems fine, given that they're clearly pretty highly equipped.

Crazy right?

They could probably handle TWO Vecnas!

Yeah I do think so, their numbers get very high and they will soon be 16. I am so proud I made Imriyth able to scare them because really when she showed up one of then said "Oh is just an ancient dragon, we can kill it in 3 rounds" Ah... good laughs.

On a serious note a big problem I see with him is that his defenses are overly weak. Speaking about my player, I dont have to think in terms of 9 men party. 4 of then, at level 20 would destroy him just because his hp and ac are that low and he dosent have access to magic to defend himself

It is easier, giving a Caster every single spell you may or may not want to cast is the exact same thing you would do with spell slots.

While there is nothing wrong with having Legendary Actions. But if they are added on depending on what they do the whole monster will probably need to be recalculated. The CR thing you don't quite get, Vecna is a proper CR 26 monster, and he matches the math of what a CR 26 should be.

There was one other high CR creature, and appearntly he just got locked away, cause people did not know how some spells worked.
The spell slots give more freedom. I can think his spell list first and how I want to use then during the fight as I need.

For legendary action, nothing crazy, his at wills are enough, being able to spam 3rd level spells between players turns is very effective.
And i get the CR, I am just saying his features when taking into account for the CR they provide, gave a weak BBEG

ff7hero

2022-06-24, 10:40 PM

Vecna is a proper CR 26 monster, and he matches the math of what a CR 26 should be.

If you don't mind, I have a few questions about your methodology. Not because I doubt you, but because I planned to run Vecna through a CR calculator but haven't been able to decide exactly how to do so.

Are you assuming he uses Vile Teleport 3 times and heals a full 80 every time? Did you assume that he was tagging 2 PCs with Afterthought per turn and that they succeeded on their first save against it? I was going to ask about how he spent his Reactions, but as long as he gets to take 3, it's always 9d6 damage, so that's irrelevant.

Idk if it matters, but did you use his Attack Bonus or Save DC?

Envyus

2022-06-24, 11:06 PM

If you don't mind, I have a few questions about your methodology. Not because I doubt you, but because I planned to run Vecna through a CR calculator but haven't been able to decide exactly how to do so.

Are you assuming he uses Vile Teleport 3 times and heals a full 80 every time? Did you assume that he was tagging 2 PCs with Afterthought per turn and that they succeeded on their first save against it? I was going to ask about how he spent his Reactions, but as long as he gets to take 3, it's always 9d6 damage, so that's irrelevant.

Idk if it matters, but did you use his Attack Bonus or Save DC?

I am not assuming anything, I just imputed him in a CR Calculator.

https://iadndmn.neocities.org/CRcalc.html

Edit: How I ran him through was I counted him as having Regen 80 (Only his bonus action teleport lets him regen not his reaction ones). Had him do two Afterthought attacks and imputed the damage they would do for one round.

The_Jette

2022-06-26, 11:09 AM

***Clipped*** Maybe adding Time Stop to Vecna would fix most folk's complaints?

Okay, I haven't had time to look at Vecna, or judge him at all in 5e. So, I was a bit surprised by this.

Does Vecna not have Time Stop? That has been in his arsenal literally since he was created back in 2e D&D. Taking away Time Stop from Vecna would be like taking away breath weapons from Tiamat. It's such a part of the core of the character that it doesn't make any sense. That's HOW Vecna was even a credible threat to begin with. He would see what the threat in front of him was, then Time Stop to set up his defenses so that he was untouchable. I just don't understand why WotC would take that away from him.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-26, 11:29 AM

Anymage

2022-06-26, 11:36 AM

Okay, I haven't had time to look at Vecna, or judge him at all in 5e. So, I was a bit surprised by this.

Does Vecna not have Time Stop? That has been in his arsenal literally since he was created back in 2e D&D. Taking away Time Stop from Vecna would be like taking away breath weapons from Tiamat. It's such a part of the core of the character that it doesn't make any sense. That's HOW Vecna was even a credible threat to begin with. He would see what the threat in front of him was, then Time Stop to set up his defenses so that he was untouchable. I just don't understand why WotC would take that away from him.

It's ironic because this Vecna is listed as knowing time manipulation magic, but this is also noted as a very early version of Vecna instead of his full form. (Most notably the art all has two hands and two eyes, so before the big throwdown with Kas.) But then, the stat block also doesn't include much in the way of defensive spells or screw-with-PC-actions spells so I don't know how much he could buff up inside a TS.

It's a whole design philosophy change to move away from spell slots on NPCs. There've been a couple of other threads on the topic if you want to see people's takes.

The_Jette

2022-06-26, 12:00 PM

His block is posted in this thread. Look at it, and then we can hate it together, the problem goes way deeper than time stop

Just looking at this stat block, I'm pretty sure the level 20 Paladin I have could solo him. Vecna has never been the most powerful archlich out there (no matter what Stranger Things has to say on the subject), but this is just doing the man dirty. SMH

Dork_Forge

2022-06-26, 01:59 PM

Just looking at this stat block, I'm pretty sure the level 20 Paladin I have could solo him. Vecna has never been the most powerful archlich out there (no matter what Stranger Things has to say on the subject), but this is just doing the man dirty. SMH

I sincerely doubt that, but I'm interested in why you think so.

Envyus

2022-06-26, 03:51 PM

Rafaelfras

2022-06-26, 05:18 PM

Who is a more powerful Lich?

Larloch is a contender.

But we have Ed Greewood responded to this, about Vecna, Larloch and Acererak. I will quote from Sage Advice

Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Envyus

2022-06-26, 06:17 PM

Yeah so Vecna is overall the most powerful, but he’s not as sneaky as Larloch.

The_Jette

2022-06-26, 06:55 PM

Who is a more powerful Lich?

If you look at the things that Vecna has accomplished, he's extremely powerful. However, if you see HOW he has accomplished those things... his power becomes questionable. For instance, in his canonical fight with the circle of eight, Vecna killed the entire circle in just a few seconds. If you look at the way that the book sets up the fight, and allows him to win, though, he only wins by breaking the rules of the game. And, I don't mean he was creative with his spells. I mean, he literally broke the rules by doing things with spells that are explicitly called out as not possible to do with those spells. For instance, quick example, he uses Time Stop (love that spell). Time Stop specifically calls out that you cannot physically interact with creatures or enemies, or cast direct damage dealing spells that go off during the timeframe in which time around you is stopped. The adventure tells the DM to have Vecna break one of the circle of eight's necks during the time stop. On top of the spell not working that way, coup de grace wasn't a thing in 2nd edition, which is what the module was built for.
So, his accomplishment was defeating the entire circle of eight by himself, nearly effortlessly. But, he only accomplished this because TSR wanted to make him an imposing and deadly figure, to make him seem impossibly powerful so the players would feel more powerful by defeating him, and thus threw out their own rules in order to do so.

As a side note, I know it's a different universe but I believe that Manshoon is a more powerful Lich than Vecna. That's a hill I am willing to die on.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-26, 07:48 PM

Envyus

2022-06-26, 07:49 PM

If you look at the things that Vecna has accomplished, he's extremely powerful. However, if you see HOW he has accomplished those things... his power becomes questionable. For instance, in his canonical fight with the circle of eight, Vecna killed the entire circle in just a few seconds. If you look at the way that the book sets up the fight, and allows him to win, though, he only wins by breaking the rules of the game. And, I don't mean he was creative with his spells. I mean, he literally broke the rules by doing things with spells that are explicitly called out as not possible to do with those spells. For instance, quick example, he uses Time Stop (love that spell). Time Stop specifically calls out that you cannot physically interact with creatures or enemies, or cast direct damage dealing spells that go off during the timeframe in which time around you is stopped. The adventure tells the DM to have Vecna break one of the circle of eight's necks during the time stop. On top of the spell not working that way, coup de grace wasn't a thing in 2nd edition, which is what the module was built for.
So, his accomplishment was defeating the entire circle of eight by himself, nearly effortlessly. But, he only accomplished this because TSR wanted to make him an imposing and deadly figure, to make him seem impossibly powerful so the players would feel more powerful by defeating him, and thus threw out their own rules in order to do so.

As a side note, I know it's a different universe but I believe that Manshoon is a more powerful Lich than Vecna. That's a hill I am willing to die on.

So a few quick things, Time Stop in 2e does not have the can’t affect other creatures clause. Second the Vecna that murders the party at the start of Vecna lives is a weaker fake Vecna (The 2e rules also do allow him to murder defenceless characters with high strength), the actual Vecna is stronger than the fake that murders the circle.

Lastly Manshoon is 100% not a more powerful Lich than Vecna, one of the primary reasons why is that Manshoon is not a Lich.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-26, 09:13 PM

As a side note, I know it's a different universe but I believe that Manshoon is a more powerful Lich than Vecna. That's a hill I am willing to die on.

I wasn't aware Manshoon ever became a Lich. I can only find record of 3 instances of Manshoon, one being a Vampire, not a lich.

I'd struggle to even say he's greater than Vecna either as a different one of these Manshoon loses so badly to Halaster Blackcloak that his severed arm is made into a glorified hall monitor.

Yeah, this is true to what I know about Manshoon as well.
And why he of all the powerfull wizards of the Realms?
He isnt stronger than Elminster nor Thelamont Thanthul, Szas Than or Halaster, and if you are going to the most powerfull Larloch and Iolaun are way above him.
He was defeated by Fzoul Chembryl and of his 3 clones I know that one became a Vampire but I am not sure which one is the strongest. So that choice make me very intrigued as well.

From Ed Greenwood we have Complete Vecna > Larloch >Incomplete Vecna >>>>> some Larloch servant liches >> Acererak

Envyus

2022-06-26, 09:34 PM

Yeah, this is true to what I know about Manshoon as well.
And why he of all the powerfull wizards of the Realms?
He isnt stronger than Elminster nor Thelamont Thanthul, Szas Than or Halaster, and if you are going to the most powerfull Larloch and Iolaun are way above him.
He was defeated by Fzoul Chembryl and of his 3 clones I know that one became a Vampire but I am not sure which one is the strongest. So that choice make me very intrigued as well.

From Ed Greenwood we have Complete Vecna > Larloch >Incomplete Vecna >>>>> some Larloch servant liches >> Acererak

It’s Larloch is maybe stronger then incomplete Vecna.

ff7hero

2022-06-27, 12:01 AM

From Ed Greenwood we have Complete Vecna > Larloch >Incomplete Vecna >>>>> some Larloch servant liches >> Acererak

Does Eddie have any canonical authority when it comes to Vecna? I know that his word is still gospel according to FR, but Vecna is from Greyhawk afaik.

It's kind of like asking Stan Lee who would win in a fight between Captain America and Superman.

Hael

2022-06-27, 01:54 AM

I sincerely doubt that, but I'm interested in why you think so.

A prebuffed (for the sake of charity) lvl 20 Oathbreaker (holy weapon + dreadlord) for instance, does about an ~193 dpr nova round (a little less on round 2 b/c of divine smite slots, or about 175) with a +1 2handed sword, GWM and holy weapon. If he's on a steed, he won't have a movement problem. That means Vecna is likely dead after the paladins turn on round 2, even if the Oathbreaker doesn't have minions (he can have a CR 19 undead ally as well as animate dead slots!!!).

So the question is, can Vecna kill the paladin in 1 round + round2 reactions? That seems unlikely. He will tag the Paladin a couple times with the rebuke for ~10/round, will hit him with the ba damage (10) and he does get a bonus to his weak melee attacks from the aura. But the problem is he can't necessarily see through the dreadlord feature, or at best he is at disadvantage. 68 is the dpr for rotten fate at disadvantage, 2 afterthought attacks does ~21 dpr against AC20 at disadvantage (I give plate +1 and defensive style to the paladin) and the fell rebuke adds ~10.

So on round 1 he does 68 + 21 + 10 + 10, and another 10 on round from the rebukes. So thats ~120, which is not going to be enough to kill a 170 hp pool... Certain racials make this even more unlikely (resistance to necrotic for instance).

So again, he will need to rely on minions to *bridge* the gap, which is the running theme of this statblock or he will need to paladin to waste turns (either by the paladin losing initiative, or by the paladin not knowing what to do and not attacking). If we make the Oathbreaker a harengon for instance, he will have a +2 initiative disparity.

So overall, the basic paladin in this example has a better than >50% chance of winning this fight if he/she goes ham (and its not a guaranteed loss even if it hits extra rounds).

The fundamental problem with the statblock, is that the hp pool is basically half of where it needs to be in order to beat extremely basic lvl 20 nova. Worse, it rewards people just going caveman and dropping all their smites in a round, rather than something more careful.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-27, 03:01 AM

A prebuffed (for the sake of charity) lvl 20 Oathbreaker (holy weapon + dreadlord) for instance, does about an ~193 dpr nova round (a little less on round 2 b/c of divine smite slots, or about 175) with a +1 2handed sword, GWM and holy weapon. If he's on a steed, he won't have a movement problem. That means Vecna is likely dead after the paladins turn on round 2, even if the Oathbreaker doesn't have minions (he can have a CR 19 undead ally as well as animate dead slots!!!).

So the question is, can Vecna kill the paladin in 1 round + round2 reactions? That seems unlikely. He will tag the Paladin a couple times with the rebuke for ~10/round, will hit him with the ba damage (10) and he does get a bonus to his weak melee attacks from the aura. But the problem is he can't necessarily see through the dreadlord feature, or at best he is at disadvantage. 68 is the dpr for rotten fate at disadvantage, 2 afterthought attacks does ~21 dpr against AC20 at disadvantage (I give plate +1 and defensive style to the paladin) and the fell rebuke adds ~10.

So on round 1 he does 68 + 21 + 10 + 10, and another 10 on round from the rebukes. So thats ~120, which is not going to be enough to kill a 170 hp pool... Certain racials make this even more unlikely (resistance to necrotic for instance).

So again, he will need to rely on minions to *bridge* the gap, which is the running theme of this statblock or he will need to paladin to waste turns (either by the paladin losing initiative, or by the paladin not knowing what to do and not attacking). If we make the Oathbreaker a harengon for instance, he will have a +2 initiative disparity.

So overall, the basic paladin in this example has a better than >50% chance of winning this fight if he/she goes ham (and its not a guaranteed loss even if it hits extra rounds).

The fundamental problem with the statblock, is that the hp pool is basically half of where it needs to be in order to beat extremely basic lvl 20 nova. Worse, it rewards people just going caveman and dropping all their smites in a round, rather than something more careful.

What an outrageous (read, extremely cherry-picked and favourable) example of a Paladin solo'ing Vecna, but let's go through why it's outrageous:

- You chose an Oathbreaker, a subclass orientated towards damage. This is very unusual for a Paladin subclass, and it's explicitly for evil NPCs and in the DMG. It's a player subclass at the DM's discretion, this example is already on incredibly shakey ground.

- You assume prebuffing, one of which is an effect that lasts for 1 minute. What is reasonable to you about the Paladin pre-buffing with such a short duration ability, whilst Vecna has been standing there twiddling his thumbs?

- You seem to be assuming that the Paladin wins initiative, given that your example is likely hard dumping Dex out of necessity, this is not a fair assumption against Vecna's +3. Yeah, you can be a Harengon, but you threw that out along with a necrotic resistance race, I'd rather not play Shrodinger's race.

- Your Vecna math is wrong, you give Rotten Fate disadvantage, but it's a saving throw ability completely unaffected by Dread Lord.

- I'm extremely curious how that Paladin is doing 193 DPR on turn 1. Assuming all hit, then unless I'm missing something it would look like:

Attack 1: 2d6+9d8+21 > 7+40.5+21= 73

Attack 2: 2d6+9d8+21 > 7+40.5+21= 73

Bonus action: 3d10+5 > 16.5+5= 21.5/2 = 10

Total: 156 assuming all attacks hit with GWM so where is that extra 37 damage coming from?

- You seem very confident in wiping Vecna out in two turns, when GWM reduces the chance to hit to 45% with the main damage dealing attacks using a +1 Greatsword.

- A steed does not erase the mobility concerns, covering the initial distance+another 30ft can still outpace a steed on turn 1

- This is assuming Vecna doesn't just kill the steed from under the Paladin, with a +6 Int and +7 Wis that seems pretty likely, and leaves the Paladin up a certain creek

- You argue about undead minions for the Paladin, which isn't a given, yet you seem to find the idea of Vecna having them distasteful when creating low-level undead not only consumes part of his block, he's very good at it.

- Vecna being Invisible complicates your assumptions, given it lasts for an hour and he can do it twice a day, it seems safer he'd be invisible when combat starts than the Paladin having a 1 minute buff up when they're already lit up like a Christmas tree. Note: Rotten Fate, Flight of the Damned, Dread Counterspell, and Fell Rebuke wouldn't end Invisibility.

- Relying on a Mount makes Dominate Monster very amusing, regardless of Aura of Protection.

You paint this as a pretty trivial that a Paladin could win 1 on 1, yet even your cherry-picked example is riddled with holes and what we'll generously call 'charity bias' with prebuffing.

ff7hero

2022-06-27, 04:00 AM

Against a Paladin Vecna should leave the steed alone, since it means he'll only be taking one attack per round.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-27, 04:39 AM

Against a Paladin Vecna should leave the steed alone, since it means he'll only be taking one attack per round.

I'd say it depends how easily he can deal with the steed, an unmounted Paladin likely isn't attacking Vecna in melee at all unless he's invested into additional movespeed, which would in turn make much of the usefulness of the mount redundant.

Mobility was the first concern I had when considering whether my Paladin (a 19th level Human Redemption Paladin) might be able to solo Vecna. The conclusion I ended at was "very likely not" as I'd be forced to rely on a Steed to keep up with Vecna and I've got no method to shut down healing.

Of course there are ways I could increase my odds but it felt unreasonable to consider them. I don't just have a Holy Avenger or Weapon of Certain Death lying around, I didn't take Chill Touch from my warlock dip (a bad option in a 1v1 with Vecna anyway) and I don't already have resistance to necrotic damage to combat the rare instance of failing a Con saving throw. About the only assumptions I felt reasonable was having a Steed already and having pre cast Circle of Power, it's 10 minute duration is a little more generous.

Burst damage, healing and mobility are the strong suits of this statblock, if you can deal with all three in a way that Vecna can't simply kill or dispel you'll be taking some damage.

Hael

2022-06-27, 09:55 AM

What an outrageous (read, extremely cherry-picked and favourable) example of a Paladin solo'ing Vecna, but let's go through why it's outrageous:
- Your Vecna math is wrong, you give Rotten Fate disadvantage, but it's a saving throw ability completely unaffected by Dread Lord.

- I'm extremely curious how that Paladin is doing 193 DPR on turn 1. Assuming all hit, then unless I'm missing something it would look like:

Total: 156 assuming all attacks hit with GWM so where is that extra 37 damage coming from?

Hold on, I'm taking a lvl 20 character against a CR26 legendary encounter with *only* a +1 weapon and a +1 plate, left racials free, and you characterized that as being overly charitable and are upset b/c I granted him a prebuff round??? Come on!

A couple things.
1) The damage difference arises bc I was divine smiting off the BA attack, which is technically a melee spell attack and not a melee attack but I think that's a pretty weak ruling if the DM insists on it. You could take polearm mastery instead to guarantee it. Also its necrotic, so the 3d10 was halved.
2) I picked a damage paladin for illustration purposes, it easily works with Vengeance or Conquest. I picked the oathbreaker b/c it washes out the undead army aspect of the fight..
3) Now, the dreadlord feature is poorly written and I did make a mistake. It reads like shadow of moil as it cloaks the user in a "deeper shadow", which would prevent Vecna from seeing the target in the first place and granting heavy obscurement. But it looks like it merely gives disadvantage to hits and not advantage to hits. Since you object to the class in the first place, lets use the Conquest paladin for concreteness from now on.
4) So to be very precise, we have a Harengon conquest paladin. 18 cha/20 str, PAM/GWM with a +10 to hit CD, 19 ac and GWF. It hits for 1d10 + 6 + 7d8 (IDS + undead + 4th lvl slots) + 2d8 (holy weapon). The lvl 20 feature gives a 19 crit range, as well as 3 attacks /turn. Once it can turn a miss into a power attack hit with the CD. So on round 1 this does 220 dpr, and on round 2 it does (40 dpr less from lower smite slots and the loss of the power attack) or 179. There will be additional damage coming from potential PAM reaction attacks as well as the lvl 15 feature. The Harengons feature guarentees >50% initiative wins. Conclusion remains unchanged.. Vecna is dead in 2 rounds unless he finds a way to prevent most of that incoming damage.
5) A conquest paladin has resistance to everything which is a serious nerf to Vecnas damage output. He does 81 dpr against +3 con and +4 cha with Rotten Fate, but thats halved.. The 2 dagger attacks now do 12 dpr total. So we have 41 + 12 + 5 + 5 =63 dpr....

6) A pegasus has 90 foot flight speed. Thats more than enough to safely track Vecna bunny hopping in round 1 at the very least. On round 2, Vecna could use Rotten Fate on the pegasus I suppose (with a 30% chance of failure). Thats probably his best bet at that stage. Especially b/c he won't be able to reach the flying steed otherwise. Presumably the Paladin will have backup magic items that grant some form of movement (boots of speed, or backup mounts).

In any event, I never claimed this was a sure thing for the Paladin. I have however just demonstrated that the martial has a pretty decent shot here..

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-27, 10:56 AM

4) So to be very precise, we have a Harengon conquest paladin. 18 cha/20 str, PAM/GWM with a +10 to hit CD, 19 ac and GWF. It hits for 1d10 + 6 + 7d8 (IDS + undead + 4th lvl slots) + 2d8 (holy weapon). The lvl 20 feature gives a 19 crit range, as well as 3 attacks /turn. Once it can turn a miss into a power attack hit with the CD. So on round 1 this does 220 dpr, and on round 2 it does (40 dpr less from lower smite slots and the loss of the power attack) or 179….

Your numbers do not seem to be accurate.

The DPR for a Paladin using 3 +1 Halberd attacks, with a crit range of 19-20, using three 4th level smites and a Bonus Action 1d4+6 haft attack results in a DPR range around 150 points of damage.

If one were to use the -5/+10 option under Great Weapon Master, the accuracy penalty will actually drop your DPR to around 124 points of damage.

Invincible Conquerer, (the Oath of Conquest capstone), requires an Action to activate.

This ‘so called’ Vecna, can Scry as an action. It is odd to assume that a solo Paladin looking to Conquer Vecna, is going to have more perfect knowledge of Vecna then Vecna would have of them.

If the Paladin has pre-cast abilities, so should Vecna.
An Invisible Vecna could potentially evade this Conquerer quite easily.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-27, 12:03 PM

Against a Paladin Vecna should leave the steed alone, since it means he'll only be taking one attack per round.

As Godot said, unless the Paladin has invested in other mobility buffs, they likely can't keep up with Vecna at all and unlike other martials they don't have much of a range option.

I'd say it depends how easily he can deal with the steed, an unmounted Paladin likely isn't attacking Vecna in melee at all unless he's invested into additional movespeed, which would in turn make much of the usefulness of the mount redundant.

Mobility was the first concern I had when considering whether my Paladin (a 19th level Human Redemption Paladin) might be able to solo Vecna. The conclusion I ended at was "very likely not" as I'd be forced to rely on a Steed to keep up with Vecna and I've got no method to shut down healing.

Of course there are ways I could increase my odds but it felt unreasonable to consider them. I don't just have a Holy Avenger or Weapon of Certain Death lying around, I didn't take Chill Touch from my warlock dip (a bad option in a 1v1 with Vecna anyway) and I don't already have resistance to necrotic damage to combat the rare instance of failing a Con saving throw. About the only assumptions I felt reasonable was having a Steed already and having pre cast Circle of Power, it's 10 minute duration is a little more generous.

Burst damage, healing and mobility are the strong suits of this statblock, if you can deal with all three in a way that Vecna can't simply kill or dispel you'll be taking some damage.

Good to see an example of an actual PC high level Paladin. I agree with Circle of Power being a more reasonable precast.

Hold on, I'm taking a lvl 20 character against a CR26 legendary encounter with *only* a +1 weapon and a +1 plate, left racials free, and you characterized that as being overly charitable and are upset b/c I granted him a prebuff round??? Come on!

You didn't 'leave racials free' you very clearly threw out beneficial options without actually picking one.

And yes, I take issue with a prebuff round the Paladin is taking in front of Vecna, whilst

Vecna does absolutely nothing in return. Assuming the prebuff of a 1 minute ability is not reasonable, particularly on a character that would have awful Stealth.

Considering that on both Paladins you've cherry picked, that prebuff is a substantial part of what you're relying on for DPR, I think it makes a large hole in your argument.

A couple things.
1) The damage difference arises bc I was divine smiting off the BA attack, which is technically a melee spell attack and not a melee attack but I think that's a pretty weak ruling if the DM insists on it. You could take polearm mastery instead to guarantee it. Also its necrotic, so the 3d10 was halved.

It doesn't really matter what your houserule for that is, RAW and likely RAI, you can't Smite on it. If your claim doesn't stand in a by-the-book fight, then it doesn't matter.

PAM eats another ASI, which you were already using up all of with the dependence on maxed Str and Cha.

I did halve the damage, shown in the math I presented.

2) I picked a damage paladin for illustration purposes, it easily works with Vengeance or Conquest. I picked the oathbreaker b/c it washes out the undead army aspect of the fight..

No, you picked the damage Paladin, and the Oath least likely to actually be played. Conquest is also relying on your beyond generous prebuff round.

3) Now, the dreadlord feature is poorly written and I did make a mistake. It reads like shadow of moil as it cloaks the user in a "deeper shadow", which would prevent Vecna from seeing the target in the first place and granting heavy obscurement. But it looks like it merely gives disadvantage to hits and not advantage to hits. Since you object to the class in the first place, lets use the Conquest paladin for concreteness from now on.

Good to know your abnormally high DPR was based on even more rules errors.

Ahh yes, let's use literally the only other Paladin subclass to have a damage-orientated capstone to prop up your claim.

4) So to be very precise, we have a Harengon conquest paladin. 18 cha/20 str, PAM/GWM with a +10 to hit CD, 19 ac and GWF. It hits for 1d10 + 6 + 7d8 (IDS + undead + 4th lvl slots) + 2d8 (holy weapon). The lvl 20 feature gives a 19 crit range, as well as 3 attacks /turn. Once it can turn a miss into a power attack hit with the CD. So on round 1 this does 220 dpr, and on round 2 it does (40 dpr less from lower smite slots and the loss of the power attack) or 179. There will be additional damage coming from potential PAM reaction attacks as well as the lvl 15 feature. The Harengons feature guarentees >50% initiative wins. Conclusion remains unchanged.. Vecna is dead in 2 rounds unless he finds a way to prevent most of that incoming damage.

The flaws continue, it looks like you're assuming that any miss can be turned into a GWM hit with the CD? Are you taking into account that the CD means nothing for a 1? Are you using the expanded crit range multiplier in that math with the assumption of CD making it a hit? You took GWM, praise the CD, yet the only part of your math you actually expanded on doesn't include it? Let's go with what you actually presented:

Attack 1: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52

Attack 2: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52

Attack 3: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52

PAM: 1d4+6+9d8 > 2.5+6+40.5= 49

Total: 205 Damage assuming all hits...

So even assuming all four attacks hit, what you've provided is 15 below what you claim. So what's the discrepancy?

And assuming PAM reaction attacks also seems faulty, seeing as Vecna would be teleporting into range:

You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.

5) A conquest paladin has resistance to everything which is a serious nerf to Vecnas damage output. He does 81 dpr against +3 con and +4 cha with Rotten Fate, but thats halved.. The 2 dagger attacks now do 12 dpr total. So we have 41 + 12 + 5 + 5 =63 dpr....

It lasts for a minute, whilst his most devastating things are at will and mobility is on his side. So he can either just wait out the ability, or just... do twice as much damage in twice the time?

6) A pegasus has 90 foot flight speed. Thats more than enough to safely track Vecna bunny hopping in round 1 at the very least. On round 2, Vecna could use Rotten Fate on the pegasus I suppose (with a 30% chance of failure). Thats probably his best bet at that stage. Especially b/c he won't be able to reach the flying steed otherwise. Presumably the Paladin will have backup magic items that grant some form of movement (boots of speed, or backup mounts).

This is based on the assumption that the range to get to Vecna is no greater than 60ft. So your assumption is that the Paladin is literally at half range of his biggest attack whilst prebuffing? Do you seriously think that's reasonable?

And no, just assuming that the Paladin will have mobility boosting items isn't reasonable, they're not exactly abundant and just smack of you handwaving the Paladin's largest problem.

Why did you say Turn 2 he'd hit the Pegasus? And can't reach it otherwise? It's an Archlich with at-will Fly and a bunch of Teleport abilities, but here's the thing! You don't get to say you can just automatically reach Vecna, but the also apparently claim you're playing a ranged kiting game.

In any event, I never claimed this was a sure thing for the Paladin. I have however just demonstrated that the martial has a pretty decent shot here..

You didn't address Vecna being invisible at all, and you're still relying on cherry picking a minority subclass with a turn immediately before the fight to prebuff within 60 ft of him.

Maybe if you didn't rely on activating an action capstone to even approach what you think is necessary, this would be a more reasonable claim. It'd be even more reasonable if the +6 Int Archlich didn't twiddle his thumbs doing nothing to protect himself in the meantime.

Seriously, this is really just showing how much you're favouring the build you're presenting.

Envyus

2022-06-27, 12:31 PM

He does 81 dpr against +3 con and +4 cha with Rotten Fate, but thats halved.. The 2 dagger attacks now do 12 dpr total. So we have 41 + 12 + 5 + 5 =63 dpr....

Vecna could use Rotten Fate on the pegasus I suppose (with a 30% chance of failure).

Rotten Fate does 96 damage on average. Also Why does it has a 30% chance of failure. (And why can't it just be used in the first round instead of the second)

ecarden

2022-06-27, 01:19 PM

Rotten Fate does 96 damage on average. Also Why does it has a 30% chance of failure. (And why can't it just be used in the first round instead of the second)

I think this is based on the save? Pegasi have +3, but the maxed paladin aura ups that to +8, so he needs a 14 or higher to hit 22? But that's not failure, it's just half damage, which, when combined with the stabs (hits on anything but a natural 1), still kills the pegasus first round (48 from rotten fate, then ~15 for each stab, pegasus HP is 59). So, unless he's got boots of speed or something, I think he's still screwed. And even with boots of speed, he's in deep trouble.

ETA: So, sequencing here looks like:

1) Paladin does their thing, starting close enough to get there in one round and then close after Vecna teleports away.
2) Vecna tries to dominate the Pegasus, pretty good chance of success, then if that fails, instagibs it with the rest of multiattack.
3) Vile teleport 15 feet from paladin, get 80 health back, walk 30 feet. Now 45 feet away.
4) Paladin has to dash to get in range.
5) Vecna does signficant damage to Paladin, then repeats teleport and walk.
6) Repeat until death.

Alternatively, dimension door 500 feet away. Buff and heal up while paladin is racing towards you, gib them at range.

ETA2: If Paladin was trying to keep distance in the air, this is more doable, but they're relying real hard on Vecna not just going 'nope, bye, I'll head over there and prep for you.'

Dork_Forge

2022-06-27, 01:30 PM

ETA2: If Paladin was trying to keep distance in the air, this is more doable, but they're relying real hard on Vecna not just going 'nope, bye, I'll head over there and prep for you.'

This is also pretty unviable as Vecna's range greatly exceeds the fly speed of a Pegasus and the Paladin is entirely dependent on melee damage.

It also seems like the Paladin is relying on being able to cast Find Greater Steed the day before, to still have that 4th level slot available. Given the relatively squishy nature of the steed and it's obvious role as the Paladin's weakspot, this seems very unlikely.

ecarden

2022-06-27, 01:40 PM

This is also pretty unviable as Vecna's range greatly exceeds the fly speed of a Pegasus and the Paladin is entirely dependent on melee damage.

It also seems like the Paladin is relying on being able to cast Find Greater Steed the day before, to still have that 4th level slot available. Given the relatively squishy nature of the steed and it's obvious role as the Paladin's weakspot, this seems very unlikely.

I generally agree with the end result, though the pegasus can dash, for up to 180 feet of movement and both of Vecna's prime abilities are 120 feet.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-27, 01:43 PM

I generally agree with the end result, though the pegasus can dash, for up to 180 feet of movement and both of Vecna's prime abilities are 120 feet.

That's only a problem if Vecna doesn't actually move, normal movement + Vile Teleport hits the Dashing distance, as does just casting Fly on himself if he feels like being aggressive instead of defensive.

Going high up on a steed is just opening the Paladin up to a large amount of fall damage and prone.

ecarden

2022-06-27, 02:01 PM

That's only a problem if Vecna doesn't actually move, normal movement + Vile Teleport hits the Dashing distance, as does just casting Fly on himself if he feels like being aggressive instead of defensive.

Going high up on a steed is just opening the Paladin up to a large amount of fall damage and prone.

As I said, I tend to agree, but it's certainly superior to just getting right up into Vecna's face and trying to stay there. At least keeping your distance you may have a chance at keeping your Pegasus alive for two rounds rather than one. Though Lightning Bolt + Rotten Fate would probably do it too.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-27, 02:23 PM

As I said, I tend to agree, but it's certainly superior to just getting right up into Vecna's face and trying to stay there. At least keeping your distance you may have a chance at keeping your Pegasus alive for two rounds rather than one. Though Lightning Bolt + Rotten Fate would probably do it too.

Keeping distance would mean you shouldn't be a Paladin in this example, there's absolutely no way for a Paladin to come close to matching Vecna's DPR at range. You have to smite or he's all but guaranteed to win through attrition.

animorte

2022-06-27, 02:24 PM

On this note, what classes would best stand up to Vecna solo?

ecarden

2022-06-27, 02:54 PM

Keeping distance would mean you shouldn't be a Paladin in this example, there's absolutely no way for a Paladin to come close to matching Vecna's DPR at range. You have to smite or he's all but guaranteed to win through attrition.

Sorry, to be clear, keeping distance in this case means making use of PAM's reach to stay out of dagger stabbing range, while still being able to whack him, not kiting, as that's doomed to failure. But than again, this entire attempt is doomed to failure.

On the who would do best solo, the cheating answer is the magical know-everything army of simulacrum wizards. More generally, the real problem is anyone who can do enough damage to burn through his healing probably can't lock him down and prevent him from bailing.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-27, 03:32 PM

I think a Kensei Monk, a few different Fighters, and maybe a Soul Knife Rogue could give it a good shot.

Dr.Samurai

2022-06-27, 04:40 PM

Would Death Ward shared with the Pegasus provide enough wiggle room to make it to Round 2?

Dork_Forge

2022-06-27, 04:46 PM

Would Death Ward shared with the Pegasus provide enough wiggle room to make it to Round 2?

I'd say questionable, depends on the save and damage roll, still likely to just die in turn 1. Casting Death Ward eats into the Paladin's nova, however, which is the entire point of choosing one in this instance.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-27, 04:56 PM

Would Death Ward shared with the Pegasus provide enough wiggle room to make it to Round 2?

Well, my Redemption Paladin in the example has a good chance of keeping the Pegasus alive for a handful of turns at least, with Circle of Power and Aura of the Guardian combined the Pegasus has a good chance of surviving unless Vecna completely focus fires it. It's still pretty luck reliant, I wouldn't count on it buying more than 2 or 3 rounds if the additional damage you're taking doesn't start killing you first.

If you did combine this with Death Ward I think you can 100% guarantee an additional turn when the Pegasus would have died but at that point the equation changes to whether you can even burst Vecna down anymore.

Hael

2022-06-27, 08:43 PM

The flaws continue, it looks like you're assuming that any miss can be turned into a GWM hit with the CD? Are you taking into account that the CD means nothing for a 1? Are you using the expanded crit range multiplier in that math with the assumption of CD making it a hit? You took GWM, praise the CD, yet the only part of your math you actually expanded on doesn't include it? Let's go with what you actually presented:

Attack 1: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52
Attack 2: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52
Attack 3: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52
PAM: 1d4+6+9d8 > 2.5+6+40.5= 49
Total: 205 Damage assuming all hits...
.

Your numbers do not seem to be accurate.

The DPR for a Paladin using 3 +1 Halberd attacks, with a crit range of 19-20, using three 4th level smites and a Bonus Action 1d4+6 haft attack results in a DPR range around 150 points of damage.

Nope the math I wrote is correct (upon rechecking) (Mojo, I think you need to use a smite on the BA). Use Ludics spreadsheet b/c the interaction with crit range/GWF and GWM crit feature has some pretty significant alterations to what you might naively think (it adds nearly 30 dpr) and it is admittedly not completely obvious. With a 12 to hit against AC 18 with GWF, a crit range of 19 and the above. I get 198 dpr without using power attack or any CD. Each primary attack does about 59 dpr

To simulate the effect of channel divinity, we can approximate the solution as follows. Subtract one primary attack (so 3 to 2) which gives a 147 dpr with the BA. Ok? Now we make one additional POWER attack with a 22 to hit (+10) with -5/+10. This gives a dpr for that one strike of ~78. 147 + 78 = 225. Power attack is generally not worth it in this fight, except for this one particular attack (or if someone gives you advantage) but the crit portion of the feat actually makes a rather large difference. In reality, its going to be a bit better than this, b/c the CD is a choice. You won't waste it on a natural 1 b/c you choose to use it after you see the roll, but I didnt feel like using anydice to simulate this difference.. Conclusion remains unchanged.

I mean this is going to look not overly different if we use a Vengeance paladin + VOE + haste (less damage on round 1, more damage on round 2) ..

More generally any Paladin with PAM/GWM and 20 str is going to be right on the borderline of killing Vecna in 2 rounds. Without using any subclass feature, a paladin does about 140 dpr a nova round under the above assumptions. His subclass thus needs to manafacture enough damage to beat the heal.

Oath of redemption and oath of the crown are likely not far from doing this.

Hael

2022-06-27, 09:00 PM

Rotten Fate does 96 damage on average. Also Why does it has a 30% chance of failure. (And why can't it just be used in the first round instead of the second)

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright. Vecna needs to spend a round casting flight to actually get in melee range, so the Pegasus survives one round of Vecna guaranteed unless Vecna is prebuffed..

To peoples complaints.

Yes Vecna can scry. I know this perfectly well. He would almost assuredly have the geometry such that an undead army is in front of him and screening, so a Pegasus charge likely eats a lot of opportunity attacks (and potential grapples). He also has planeshift, and his absolute best move is to planeshift on the first opportunity, wait out what his army does (and summon new ones) and come back when things are ill prepared for a fight.

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

JNAProductions

2022-06-27, 09:04 PM

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright. Vecna needs to spend a round casting flight to actually get in melee range, so the Pegasus survives one round of Vecna guaranteed unless Vecna is prebuffed..

To peoples complaints.

Yes Vecna can scry. I know this perfectly well. He would almost assuredly have the geometry such that an undead army is in front of him and screening, so a Pegasus charge likely eats a lot of opportunity attacks (and potential grapples). He also has planeshift, and his absolute best move is to planeshift on the first opportunity, wait out what his army does (and summon new ones) and come back when things are ill prepared for a fight.

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

You say "Unless Vecna is prebuffed" when you assume the Paladin gets prebuffed, including with a one minute duration buff.

It'd make a lot more sense if Vecna was prebuffed and the Paladin wasn't-not with anything that short duration, at least.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-27, 09:05 PM

Hael, using Ludic’s sheet, assuming a 5th level smite on the B/A attack, and 4th level smites on the other three attacks, plus GWM and GWF still doesn’t result in replicating your numbers.

Are you presuming Advantage?

Using your proposed strategy, the Paladin has to kill Vecna in two rounds, else risk having not having enough resources to finish the job.

Round 1 the Paladin has expended all their 4th level slots, and half of their 5th level slots.

Vecna is going to heal at least 70 HPs per turn. See Invisibility is not a spell in a single class Conquest Paladin’s repertoire.

Vecna can conceivably ‘Rope a Dope’ the Paladin.
Round 1 Paladin blows most of their high end Smite Resources.
Round 2 Vecna turns Invisible, proceeds to use Vile Teleport, which as an ability gives no indication that it is a spell. Consequently, Invisibility is not canceled.

I think your scenario, Hael, is fairly close to Best Case territory.

If the solo Paladin has luck on their side, and rolls high damage with a Critical Hit or two…perhaps.

JNAProductions

2022-06-27, 09:08 PM

What's the exact Paladin build? I can double-check the math.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-27, 09:11 PM

I like how the argument devolved into ditching the party altogether and now we are trying to kill Vecna with just 1 character.

animorte

2022-06-27, 09:14 PM

I like how the argument devolved into ditching the party altogether and now we are trying to kill Vecna with just 1 character.

Yup, for those that felt it looks too easy. Everybody loves testing their limits. Not that it's relevant, but this is exactly how I figured out an interesting Rock<Paper<Scissors = Tiamat<Barbarian<Tarrasque.

ecarden

2022-06-27, 09:17 PM

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright.

If the Pegasus saves, it won't die outright, though half damage almost kills it. But you're forgetting Vecna's other move options, including the reaction teleport. Vecna can basically guarantee dead Pegasus by adding lightning bolt on top, or a few stabs, then teleport 30 feet away, walk 30 more feet away and you're screwed.

ETA: Note, I misread his multiattack, it's one of the first three options, not all 3 options. So, just ignore that bit. I think he's probably better off DD 500 feet away and prepping as you approach, under that structure, though dominate monster on the pegasus and send it up and away sort of screws the paladin too.

Hael

2022-06-27, 09:26 PM

On this note, what classes would best stand up to Vecna solo?

At high optimization levels. Likely a number of classes. Races like the Shadar Kai are going to do really well against him. Archers are going to do really well against him (gloomstalkers/fighters/hexbows/kensais/various sorlock/hexvoker type things).

Wizards/Bards/arcana clerics and Sorcerors will annihilate him with wish/shapechange/true polymorph/simulacrum type things given enough prep work.

Moon druids probably do well. Paladins...

The primary threat of the statblock is against low dpr or low nova classes with limited movement and melee (so clerics are going to struggle somewhat)..

Hael

2022-06-27, 09:45 PM

Are you presuming Advantage?

.

Hey Mojo. Just to be clear.. we have 1d10 + 9d8 + 6 for 3 attacks. 12 to hit against AC 18. GWM and GWF style are both clicked. Then we have one additional BA attack. 1d4 + 9d8 + 6. No advantage. No power attack. My sheet says 198 dpr. Can you confirm? Im using v2.51.

Smite slots will be a problem. one 5th lvl slot is used for holy weapon. So that leaves 1 5th and 3 4th (i used 4 4ths instead of a fifth and 3 4s). On round 2 the paladin will lose 3 3rds and a 2nd) (thats a loss of about 5d8 damage from r1 to r2, but it wasn't enough to prevent Vecnas death).

The Paladins biggest problem ultimately is getting kited.. Most of the war phase will be on how to best prepare for that eventuality (having additional mounts on the ground seems like a good idea).

JNAProductions

2022-06-27, 09:53 PM

+12 to-hit against AC 18 means that you hit on a 6+. That's a 65% hit rate, 10% crit rate, and a 25% miss rate.

Each hit does 52 damage, at 1d10+9d8+6. A crit does 98.
BA Attack does 49, 92 on a crit.

3(.65*52+.1*98)+(.65*49+.1*92) is the formula.

Which only gets 171.85 damage. How are you getting 20 more?

Anymage

2022-06-27, 10:33 PM

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

Even ignoring CAW vs. CAS, Vecna as a boss monster is something you're most likely to find towards the end of the adventuring day. As such, you're unlikely to have a full complement of resources. And that's before asking questions like the optimization level of both sides. The actual playtest results focused on action denial, and if an enemy can't take actions against you then it's just a matter of wearing it down.

I could see the point of a theoretical build designed to OTK Vecna before he can get off more than one reaction, since optimal nova DPS is intriguing in its own right. Hoping for a very specific set of circumstances to nerf him, though (you get to come in with effects while he's unprepared and just sitting in a white room, and all that happens is that you trade blows until someone hits 0HP) seems like placing your thumb on the scale pretty hard, however.

Hael

2022-06-27, 10:35 PM

Angelalex242

2022-06-27, 10:36 PM

Well...

This becomes infinitely easier with a Paladin and his Diviner Wizard pal.

"I foresee you getting 2 crit smites."

That'll do it, presuming Holy Avenger (because if you're going up against Vecna, you're not leaving home without it), and blowing every 5th level spell slot you have, including using a Banishing Smite to double up on smite damage.

JNAProductions

2022-06-27, 10:39 PM

You need to take into account GWF (and the GWM crit but thats only like 1 dpr here). Its 172.5 dpr without it, 198dpr with it

Didn't Sage Advice clarify that that's only on the weapon damage, not extra dice from Smites and Sneak Attack and the like?

Angelalex242

2022-06-27, 10:43 PM

As I recall, the dice are doubled (That's why Paladins and rogues love crits), but the bonus damage from strength and GWM is not, which makes fighters and barbarians sad.

JNAProductions

2022-06-27, 10:45 PM

As I recall, the dice are doubled (That's why Paladins and rogues love crits), but the bonus damage from strength and GWM is not, which makes fighters and barbarians sad.

GWF is RR1s and RR2s for damage.
Crits are double all dice.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-27, 10:55 PM

Hey Mojo. Just to be clear.. we have 1d10 + 9d8 + 6 for 3 attacks. 12 to hit against AC 18. GWM and GWF style are both clicked. Then we have one additional BA attack. 1d4 + 9d8 + 6. No advantage. No power attack. My sheet says 198 dpr. Can you confirm? Im using v2.51..

202.3 is the result on my end. Same version. Interesting.
One concern with bringing spare mounts, is it increases the number of potential targets for the healing buffet that is Vile Teleport.

The other issue with mounts is there is a good chance that a Conquest Paladin’s mount is going to be Frightened of Vecna, after a use of Flight of the Damned.

The Paladin, should just bring a friend with them, and resist the temptation of being a solo act.🃏

Hael

2022-06-27, 11:04 PM

Even ignoring CAW vs. CAS, Vecna as a boss monster is something you're most likely to find towards the end of the adventuring day.

Sure I dont disagree (although the playtest material didnt really include extras for the party to deal with). I mean the scenario of a solitary pc going up against a legendary lich is rather ridiculous in a team based game, and if it was to happen there would be endless scouting reports and every preperation would be completed. The PC would likely have some sort of DM granted artifact etc etc.

The point was to stress the statblock mechanically, and to show that its already stressed against a single relatively pedestrian (by optimization standards) monoclass with relatively straight forward Nova. If it struggles against this, then its probably not ideal for a real party of 3 or 4 pcs with actually strong magic items, like what you would see in a real campaign.

I know of several groups on discord who have been reporting similar results (Vecna dead on round 2), and it just seems pretty clear to me that the design team undershot the hitpoint threshold for some reason. Most of the other CR 26 monsters have nearly double the hitpoint values, I donÂ’t really understand what made them so heavily value Vecnas heal.

Angelalex242

2022-06-27, 11:16 PM

A mount is obviously within the Paladin's auras, so the mount is getting his save bonus, anti charm (if Devotion), anti magic (if Ancients) anti fear, and so on.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-27, 11:55 PM

A mount is obviously within the Paladin's auras, so the mount is getting his save bonus, anti charm (if Devotion), anti magic (if Ancients) anti fear, and so on.

Many posts have referenced using a Pegasus as a mount, which only has a +3 Constitution Saving Throw. Boosting that Saving Throw bonus to a +8, against the DC 22 of Vecna’s Flight of the Damned, certainly helps, but does not bring the likelihood of success on the Saving Throw up to a certainty.

Angelalex242

2022-06-28, 12:22 AM

It's not relevant what the save number is. Paladins, at level 10, have their anti fear aura. The save DC can be 122, and no Paladin nor anyone within 10 (30) feet of him will succumb.

Kane0

2022-06-28, 01:22 AM

Well until the Paladin is unconscious at any rate.

Angelalex242

2022-06-28, 02:41 AM

Well, if he's unconscious, he obviously lost the 'can he solo Vecna' challenge :P

Dualight

2022-06-28, 02:52 AM

Especially considering that Vecna gets enough sources of damage that he can guaranteed that unconsciousness turns into certain death after at most 1 chance at a death save. 0 chances for a death save (and thus getting back up on a 20) if the KO was outside Vecna's turn or with the first offensive act on Vecna's turn.
And then Vecna can complicate resurrection with animate dead if he feels lazy (I am sure he has nastier methods available, considering that Book of Vile Darkness).

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-28, 06:21 AM

It's not relevant what the save number is. Paladins, at level 10, have their anti fear aura. The save DC can be 122, and no Paladin nor anyone within 10 (30) feet of him will succumb.

It is relevant as Flight of the Damned is save for half damage.
The mounted Pegasus dies in two rounds. Any spare mounts may also be in the area of effect of the 120’ Cone.

Vecna also has Dominate Monster. It is a coin toss if the spell will land, but around a 50% chance to end a solo combat with one spell, is likely worth considering.

Dr.Samurai

2022-06-28, 07:15 AM

Well, if it was me fighting Vecna, I would just rip his hand off and take his eye out...

animorte

2022-06-28, 08:13 AM

Well, if it was me fighting Vecna, I would just rip his hand off and take his eye out...

Yes, very good! I was thinking the same thing. I'd likely run the alligator that snatched Hook's hand, as it has proficiency with hand snatching. So... Druid perhaps? We just need to lure Vecna to the water.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-28, 09:45 AM

Well, if it was me fighting Vecna, I would just rip his hand off and take his eye out...
I as DM would grant you a magic sword for this fight 🗡️

Dork_Forge

2022-06-28, 11:35 PM

Nope the math I wrote is correct (upon rechecking) (Mojo, I think you need to use a smite on the BA). Use Ludics spreadsheet b/c the interaction with crit range/GWF and GWM crit feature has some pretty significant alterations to what you might naively think (it adds nearly 30 dpr) and it is admittedly not completely obvious. With a 12 to hit against AC 18 with GWF, a crit range of 19 and the above. I get 198 dpr without using power attack or any CD. Each primary attack does about 59 dpr

To simulate the effect of channel divinity, we can approximate the solution as follows. Subtract one primary attack (so 3 to 2) which gives a 147 dpr with the BA. Ok? Now we make one additional POWER attack with a 22 to hit (+10) with -5/+10. This gives a dpr for that one strike of ~78. 147 + 78 = 225. Power attack is generally not worth it in this fight, except for this one particular attack (or if someone gives you advantage) but the crit portion of the feat actually makes a rather large difference. In reality, its going to be a bit better than this, b/c the CD is a choice. You won't waste it on a natural 1 b/c you choose to use it after you see the roll, but I didnt feel like using anydice to simulate this difference.. Conclusion remains unchanged.

I'm not one to check accuracy based math, I will however note that this damage certain feels high and two other users don't get the same results.

I also severely disagree with GWF really adding any form of damage, it helps insulate you from the lowest damage rolls, but to say that it adds damage in a single fight is just wrong. Doing the math this way over values the Fighting Style massively.

I mean this is going to look not overly different if we use a Vengeance paladin + VOE + haste (less damage on round 1, more damage on round 2) ..

...How is losing 2d8 radiant damage per attack from Holy Weapon, in exchange for keeping the number of attacks the same, "not overly different?" That's a potential 8d8 difference on the first turn alone and a significant portion of the damage that justifies your claim to kill him in two rounds.

More generally any Paladin with PAM/GWM and 20 str is going to be right on the borderline of killing Vecna in 2 rounds. Without using any subclass feature, a paladin does about 140 dpr a nova round under the above assumptions. His subclass thus needs to manafacture enough damage to beat the heal.

The above assumptions being?

And subclasses in general won't be doing this, they only approach being helpful if you assume they can spend an action activating their capstones, which is overly lopsidedly generous.

Oath of redemption and oath of the crown are likely not far from doing this.

And how are Redemption and Crown doing that? Redemptions damage abilities are awful in this scenario and Crown doesn't have any.

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright. Vecna needs to spend a round casting flight to actually get in melee range, so the Pegasus survives one round of Vecna guaranteed unless Vecna is prebuffed..

There's zero reasons why he shouldn't have a prebuff effect going, but it is very, very possible for Vecna to kill the Pegasus outright. Moreso: If you're intending to be so far in the air that you're difficult to reach... Vecna just has to walk the other way to deny you your attacks. Given that your assumptions rely on short duration abilities that are already running down, making it even easier for Vecna to kite you (which he can do regardless of the Pegasus) doesn't seem like a good idea.

To peoples complaints.

Yes Vecna can scry. I know this perfectly well. He would almost assuredly have the geometry such that an undead army is in front of him and screening, so a Pegasus charge likely eats a lot of opportunity attacks (and potential grapples). He also has planeshift, and his absolute best move is to planeshift on the first opportunity, wait out what his army does (and summon new ones) and come back when things are ill prepared for a fight.

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

This is false equivalence, you don't have to go into a full undead army and hiding on a different plane. People's complaints was a lack of any prebuffing or intelligence on Vecna's part at all. Standing there whilst you apply various buffs and he does nothing is a meaningless whiteroom scenario.

At high optimization levels. Likely a number of classes. Races like the Shadar Kai are going to do really well against him. Archers are going to do really well against him (gloomstalkers/fighters/hexbows/kensais/various sorlock/hexvoker type things).

They can, assuming clear line of sight that he can't break with a 30 ft teleport, I'm going to guess you're also assuming that the archers aren't immediately closed upon?

Wizards/Bards/arcana clerics and Sorcerors will annihilate him with wish/shapechange/true polymorph/simulacrum type things given enough prep work.

Prep work say, like having an undead bodyguard or being Invisible?

The primary threat of the statblock is against low dpr or low nova classes with limited movement and melee (so clerics are going to struggle somewhat)..

And a superior version of counterspell against casters.

Hey Mojo. Just to be clear.. we have 1d10 + 9d8 + 6 for 3 attacks. 12 to hit against AC 18. GWM and GWF style are both clicked. Then we have one additional BA attack. 1d4 + 9d8 + 6. No advantage. No power attack. My sheet says 198 dpr. Can you confirm? Im using v2.51.

Smite slots will be a problem. one 5th lvl slot is used for holy weapon. So that leaves 1 5th and 3 4th (i used 4 4ths instead of a fifth and 3 4s). On round 2 the paladin will lose 3 3rds and a 2nd) (thats a loss of about 5d8 damage from r1 to r2, but it wasn't enough to prevent Vecnas death).

The Paladins biggest problem ultimately is getting kited.. Most of the war phase will be on how to best prepare for that eventuality (having additional mounts on the ground seems like a good idea).

So... you're also proposing that bringing more mounts is not only a reasonable thing to do, but that a Paladin could actually make use of them?

And the assumption around GWF seems incredibly flawed.

Angelalex242

2022-06-29, 12:00 AM

Pegasus #1 is down. Noble Pegasus #2, to me!

Pegasus #6 Are you guys sure we get paid enough for this?

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-29, 12:01 AM

And how are Redemption and Crown doing that? Redemptions damage abilities are awful in this scenario and Crown doesn't have any.

1 - Yes, both of Redemptions damaging features are pretty darn useless against Vecna. Capstone could potentially be useful if you're worried about summoned chumps, but if you're worried about them you should be more worried about Vecna.

2 - I wouldn't expect anyone to have picked Redemption or Crown to have focused all of their ASI and resources into damage boosting. They're defense and support oriented subclasses, they reward team play and I can only assume the suggestion that they could even come close reads similarly to me than if the statement made was "look, a Paladin with no subclass can even do this much damage!"

I know my Redemption Paladin certainly isn't doing that type of damage, he carries a Sword of the Paruns and has feats focused in group synergy like Inspiring Leader, Gift of the Metallic Dragon and Martial Adept (Bait and Switch).

So... you're also proposing that bringing more mounts is not only a reasonable thing to do, but that a Paladin could actually make use of them?
Even ignoring the logistical aspects, the reckless disregard for the safety of them (even if they're conjured spirits) would give my Paladin pause in this.

Hael

2022-06-29, 01:42 AM

1 - Yes, both of Redemptions damaging features are pretty darn useless against Vecna. Capstone could potentially be useful if you're worried about summoned chumps, but if you're worried about them you should be more worried about Vecna.

2 - I wouldn't expect anyone to have picked Redemption or Crown to have focused all of their ASI and resources into damage boosting. They're defense and support oriented subclasses, they reward team play and I can only assume the suggestion that they could even come close reads similarly to me than if the statement made was "look, a Paladin with no subclass can even do this much damage!"
.

Redemption and Crown both have the nice aspect that they basically keep their mount alive, so the movement issue is solved for them. Vecna will take a rather large amount of damage if he goes after the mount like in the other examples for Redemption, and Crown can substitute his health for the mounts. Redemptions capstone is also pretty nasty for Vecna.

Crown does get spirit guardians, and that could be a damage upgrade over holy weapon b/c Vecna has to reenter the area to do damage (so he often takes it twice).

As far as vengeance. Haste solves the movement issue for them, VOE is a ~50% damage increase. The extra attack from Haste is about 70 dpr (b/c you can smite and power attack of it with advantage), which is more than 2d8 * 3, but you do lose some damage on the first turn due to the setup of VOE. I am not going to repeat a damage analysis at this time, but it looked comparable to some of the other damage Pallies when I was glancing at it yesterday..

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-29, 07:55 AM

Redemption and Crown both have the nice aspect that they basically keep their mount alive, so the movement issue is solved for them. Vecna will take a rather large amount of damage if he goes after the mount like in the other examples for Redemption, and Crown can substitute his health for the mounts. Redemptions capstone is also pretty nasty for Vecna.
That's not exactly true, I'm pretty sure you're only buying another turn or two at best for the mount and that's if you choose to use Death Ward as well. These mounts don't have a lot of hit points, if they fail a save against either of Vecna's abilities you'll probably be forced to spend your reaction and take the damage instead.

Taking that damage instead is also a problem, you don't want to be taking that kind of damage, especially since for both of those Aura's you can't reduce the damage at all, your resistance to Necrotic damage is pointless if the mount doesn't have it.

The capstone is also not particularly useful against Vecna because it means you aren't attacking him. You did read that part, yes? If you deal damage to him through any method other than the capstone, it's now non-functional against him. Honestly, as much a fan as I am of this feature it's almost entirely worthless against Vecna. Like I said, it's only strength is against adds, there's a decent chance you'll be able to ignore them and survive until Vecna is dealt with.

Final note on the capstone, and this is kind of a big deal, is that the damage reflection aspect only works against attacks. Even if you attempted to only heal yourself, which you might not be able to do because of Afterthought, you can't reflect the damage of Flight of the Damned, Rotten Fate or any of his spells. The only damage you can reflect is Afterthought, which is somewhere near 7 damage per hit. The lingering damage is also not reflected, and fun note, not something that Aura of the Guardian can prevent from being inflicted on the mount.

Crown does get spirit guardians, and that could be a damage upgrade over holy weapon b/c Vecna has to reenter the area to do damage (so he often takes it twice).
Concentrating on SG means you aren't concentrating on Circle of Power, which means your mount is extremely vulnerable, which means YOU are extremely vulnerable. He doesn't have to enter the range of SG either, and even if he does do it continuously if you don't have a way to shut his healing down it's not actually dealing any effective damage.

I'm also not quite sure where you've gotten the "takes damage twice" aspect. He takes damage when entering it or when starting his turn there, he does not take damage when you move the area into his space. Unless he's using his reaction teleport to enter the area off his turn, he's only ever taking the damage once per turn.

As far as vengeance. Haste solves the movement issue for them, VOE is a ~50% damage increase. The extra attack from Haste is about 70 dpr (b/c you can smite and power attack of it with advantage), which is more than 2d8 * 3, but you do lose some damage on the first turn due to the setup of VOE. I am not going to repeat a damage analysis at this time, but it looked comparable to some of the other damage Pallies when I was glancing at it yesterday..
Sure, Vengeance might be, but Redemption and Crown definitely aren't.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-29, 03:03 PM

Redemption and Crown both have the nice aspect that they basically keep their mount alive, so the movement issue is solved for them. Vecna will take a rather large amount of damage if he goes after the mount like in the other examples for Redemption, and Crown can substitute his health for the mounts. Redemptions capstone is also pretty nasty for Vecna.

Taking that damage instead is a horrible trade off for the Paladin, it can create an easier way to hurt them whilst not even saving the mount given it takes a reaction to transfer damage, the economy on that front can still favour Vecna.

Redemption's capstone only matters if Vecna goes first, and even then it only applies to After Thought, not the save-based abilities.

Crown does get spirit guardians, and that could be a damage upgrade over holy weapon b/c Vecna has to reenter the area to do damage (so he often takes it twice).

Targeting a strong save makes it worse than riding on an attack, and as already pointed out he'd only take it once.

As far as vengeance. Haste solves the movement issue for them, VOE is a ~50% damage increase. The extra attack from Haste is about 70 dpr (b/c you can smite and power attack of it with advantage), which is more than 2d8 * 3, but you do lose some damage on the first turn due to the setup of VOE. I am not going to repeat a damage analysis at this time, but it looked comparable to some of the other damage Pallies when I was glancing at it yesterday..

Let's break down the problems here:

- Every time I have run numbers I've just assumed that all attacks hit and added up the various average damages. This still made your damage claims fall short and directly conflicts with advantage being a '50% increase' since the only benefit then becomes a slightly increased chance of critting. The Vengeance Paladin is substantially behind your first two attempts.

- A Hasted Paladin is one Dispel Magic from certain death.

- A Hasted Paladin is one failed Concentration save from certain death.

- This assumes yet another prebuff with a 1 minute duration

- You're comparing Haste with Holy Weapon, the comparison should actually be comparing the Conquest Paladin you presented with Holy Weapon vs the Vengeance Paladin with Haste, since your claim was that there wouldn't be much difference.

- The attack from haste is not 70 dpr. Assume a power attack hits: 1d10+16+7d8 > 5.5+16+31.5= 53 What's the justification for the 17 point difference this time?

ecarden

2022-06-29, 03:47 PM

Haste solves the movement issue for them,

Don't think this is right. It helps, but not enough. 60 feet of move speed. So, you start on top of him, then he attacks + everything. Bonus action teleport 15 feet away, heal, walk 30 feet away. You can still get to him...for one attack, then he reaction teleports away. You can action dash to catch him again, but you're still only getting two attacks.

And again, this assumes he doesn't just dimension door 500 feet away and wait for your buffs to lapse.

Dr.Samurai

2022-06-29, 03:51 PM

Rafaelfras

2022-06-29, 05:45 PM

I think you Haste the Pegasus as well.

Ludic has a dex/paladin build that will definitely win initiative (I'm not sure PWT would work against Truesight for an attempt at surprise). Also gets Nondetection to foil scrying, and has scrying of its own. Can counterspell as well.

Not sure if any of this makes a difference. Not sure a single paladin can solo him. How did we get here again? :smallconfused:

He is weak, so when it was clear that a lvl 20 party will just destroy him someone said "my paladin can do it alone" so we went to who can kill Vecna alone and how a paladin could do it

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-29, 08:52 PM

I think you Haste the Pegasus as well.

Well, if you think pigeon droppings were a hassle.

The statblock just isn’t Vecna. It is a cool creature, but not the Whispered One. The Hand and Eye of Vecna are empowered with Vecna’s spirit.
One would think a fully hale Vecna would have access to the spells contained within the artifacts.

A demi-god of secrets, should probably have Foresight as an ability.
Why is Afterthought preventing healing, and not stealing secrets?

It seems like a creature designed to fit a formula, not to fit the lore.

The name “The Whispered One” is fairly evocative….this statblock does not match the name.

Dr.Samurai

2022-06-29, 08:58 PM

Is it possible to build a better Vecna as a PC, and then kill this pretender? :smallconfused:

Rafaelfras

2022-06-29, 11:07 PM

Well, if you think pigeon droppings were a hassle.

The statblock just isn’t Vecna. It is a cool creature, but not the Whispered One. The Hand and Eye of Vecna are empowered with Vecna’s spirit.
One would think a fully hale Vecna would have access to the spells contained within the artifacts.

A demi-god of secrets, should probably have Foresight as an ability.
Why is Afterthought preventing healing, and not stealing secrets?

It seems like a creature designed to fit a formula, not to fit the lore.

The name “The Whispered One” is fairly evocative….this statblock does not match the name.

Yes, I agree with that. 3 threads over this and really, like the model as much as you want. But this isnt Vecna.

I will use this block as a BBEG of more fighter disposition, so I can give better armor, a stronger weapon and more HP and will be very fitting for a spellblade villain

Is it possible to build a better Vecna as a PC, and then kill this pretender? :smallconfused:
Please

Hael

2022-06-30, 12:47 AM

Let's break down the problems here:

- Every time I have run numbers.

No offense, but this is getting silly. The fundamental problem is you are not actually doing the numbers, whereas i'm staring at the real thing.. Please run a reliable damage calculator..

A VOE paladin with 20 str and GWM/PAM/GWF and a +1 halberd on a round with VOE up, does 198 DPR with no power attack, and on the setup round does 163. (1d10 + 7d8 + 6 *3). Haste is only a 3rd lvl slot so it gains some smite damage actually (an extra 5th lvl slot), but its not necessary to include that difference.

If you don't like RAW, and want to run RAI (sage advice) With GWF ticked off its ~171. One could also change the build up to optimize for defense, and make him an elf/half elf/shadar kai. On the first round setting up VOE, it does 163. 198 + 163 = Vecna dead in 2 rounds over 50% of the time.

In the vengeance paladins case, he has 120 feet of fly speed with haste up, which makes the mount somewhat redundant. The lvl 15 feature also guarantees a reaction attack which is going to add up.

I'm pretty sure a Shadar Kai vengeance paladin is one of the worst matchups for Vecna amongst the paladins.

Hael

2022-06-30, 12:50 AM

Don't think this is right. It helps, but not enough. 60 feet of move speed. So, you start on top of him, then he attacks + everything. Bonus action teleport 15 feet away, heal, walk 30 feet away. You can still get to him...for one attack, then he reaction teleports away. You can action dash to catch him again, but you're still only getting two attacks.

And again, this assumes he doesn't just dimension door 500 feet away and wait for your buffs to lapse.

A vengeance paladin capstone gives him 60 feet of flight. Haste should double that. The location described in the playtest was also not an open field, but yes, the best strat remains some sort of 'Vecna run away' strat (planeshift, DD etc)

Hael

2022-06-30, 01:29 AM

The capstone is also not particularly useful against Vecna because it means you aren't attacking him. Yo
Final note on the capstone, and this is kind of a big deal, is that the damage reflection aspect only works against attacks. Even if you attempted to only heal yourself, which you might not be able to do because of Afterthought, you can't reflect the damage of Flight of the Damned, Rotten Fate or any of his spells.

Concentrating on SG means you aren't concentrating on Circle of Power, which means your mount is extremely vulnerable, which means YOU are extremely vulnerable. He doesn't have to enter the range of SG either, and even if he does do it continuously if you don't have a way to shut his healing down it's not actually dealing any effective damage.

I'm also not quite sure where you've gotten the "takes damage twice" aspect. He takes damage when entering it or when starting his turn there, he does not take damage when you move the area into his space. Unless he's using his reaction teleport to enter the area off his turn, he's only ever taking the damage once per turn.

The capstone is still nice, especially if Vecna wins initiative. You will drop it at the first opportunity of course. Good catch about the spell attack though, I did not consider that.

Circle of power is indeed a very strong consideration for your concentration, but it does push the fight outside of the nova assumptions (3 rounds to kill minimum, and the paladins survival becomes difficult, lay on hands might be necessary for a round, but unclear if that buys you much).

Spirit guardians can go off a few times tho. Consider this, you are on your mount flying 20 feet above his reach. Vecna will need to cast flight to reach you in order to use his BA heal. He could of course hit you or your mount with rotten fate every turn from a distance, but as we know, he runs out of hp too fast that way, he needs the heal in order to win the fight. So he teleports in, gets his heal off and hits you in melee a few times, he thus takes SG and then either he takes the damage the next turn or he risks an opportunity attack to escape. Actually his best use is to teleport in at 15 feet (just outside PAM reach), and then fly away. He does lose his melee damage that way though.

ff7hero

2022-06-30, 01:38 AM

If you don't like RAW, and want to run RAI (sage advice) With GWF

The GWF+Smite ruling is in the Compendium, making this a shaky claim at best.

Kane0

2022-06-30, 01:53 AM

Running a 2 round fight with one Vecna vs one Paladin 20 seems pretty straightforward, why don't you just actually run through it? This is a thread all about a playtest after all.

Hael

2022-06-30, 02:51 AM

- A Hasted Paladin is one Dispel Magic from certain death.

Yes, that is a problem, but its not certain death. Vecna is essentially trading off using his big attack for casting a spell (so he loses an action in a sense all the while making you lose your action). He debuffs you well, and he does get his melee attacks off (if he can reach you on your mount, who you should NOT haste), so its not quite a wash, but well its not the end of the world either.

Now I am actually not quite sure how to rule the following.. As you are a DM maybe you could help me. Dispel magic is usually set at 3rd lvl or lower and given they don't give slots anymore to monster spellcasters he can't upcast it, so it remains at 3rd lvl correct? So I could upcast haste to 5th lvl, and this triggers the DC check. 10 + 5 vs 1d20 + 6. Is that right? If true, it would be a pretty risky gamble for Vecna, and likely he loses the fight if he misses.

Hitting you with the big attack, seems like a more efficient use of Vecnas action and a similar concentration breaker (even against paladin aura and potential resistances depending on subclass). Hitting you in the first place is ~ 65% ( for con 16) and you would then need to make another roll. With resistances up (eg shadar kai) the big attack would trigger something like a DC 24 con save (about a 75% chance). Thats close to 50/50. (without resistances its about 63% chance to break concentration). This seems better.

Hael

2022-06-30, 02:52 AM

Running a 2 round fight with one Vecna vs one Paladin 20 seems pretty straightforward, why don't you just actually run through it? This is a thread all about a playtest after all.

Someone should code this up on dndcombat. All of these 1 on 1s look surprisingly close to me, especially for the more damage oriented pallies. I think its something that probably needs to be run multiple times.

Hael

2022-06-30, 02:58 AM

The GWF+Smite ruling is in the Compendium, making this a shaky claim at best.

Thats how Ludic's calculator runs it, so I didn't think about it. Apparently there is a lengthy back and forth of mutually contradictory statements about the subject from Mearls. *shrug*

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?445735-GWF-Paladin-Reroll-1s-amp-2s-on-Divine-Smite

animorte

2022-06-30, 05:20 AM

why don't you just actually run through it? This is a thread all about a playtest after all.

I think its something that probably needs to be run multiple times.

Yeah, this is something I suggested a few days ago. It needs to actually be run many times under the same conditions and under varying conditions to get a large enough sample size. I have yet to see evidence of this mentioned except, “I’ve heard of similar results.”

I appreciate the OP and cast for the original play test and their very detailed information. For anybody else debating: just run it.

Envyus

2022-06-30, 11:58 AM

He is weak, so when it was clear that a lvl 20 party will just destroy him someone said "my paladin can do it alone" so we went to who can kill Vecna alone and how a paladin could do it

Thing is despite saying this it's not true.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-30, 12:34 PM

Thing is despite saying this it's not true.
It is true, and denying it won't change it.
If you think a Cr 26 monster being solo'ed by a single level 20 character it's ok that's on you.
He is weak and no amount of denying will change this

Jakinbandw

2022-06-30, 01:14 PM

It is true, and denying it won't change it.
If you think a Cr 26 monster being solo'ed by a single level 20 character it's ok that's on you.
He is weak and no amount of denying will change this

Can't any cr20+ monster be destroyed by an optimized caster with access to simulacrum and wish?

Rafaelfras

2022-06-30, 01:26 PM

Can't any cr20+ monster be destroyed by an optimized caster with access to simulacrum and wish?

Then the problem is simulacrum + wish not the monster

Sulicius

2022-06-30, 02:40 PM

It is true, and denying it won't change it.
If you think a Cr 26 monster being solo'ed by a single level 20 character it's ok that's on you.
He is weak and no amount of denying will change this

I tested him. He beat a party of three armed-to-the-teeth lvl20 characters who recently finished their campaign.

There’s no denying he was fun to use and very powerful.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-06-30, 03:27 PM

I tested him. He beat a party of three armed-to-the-teeth lvl20 characters who recently finished their campaign.

There’s no denying he was fun to use and very powerful.

Could you add some details, not trying to voice doubt here, just trying to build a larger sample size of tests. Party comp would be nice, what "armed to the teeth" entails as far as magic item access, tactics the party used against Vecna, tactics Vecna used against the party.

Psyren

2022-06-30, 03:33 PM

Then the problem is simulacrum + wish not the monster

Pretty much.

He is weak and no amount of denying will change this

He is weak to a specific strategy that would neuter most casting enemies in 5e.

Envyus

2022-06-30, 03:58 PM

Sulicius

2022-06-30, 04:16 PM

Could you add some details, not trying to voice doubt here, just trying to build a larger sample size of tests. Party comp would be nice, what "armed to the teeth" entails as far as magic item access, tactics the party used against Vecna, tactics Vecna used against the party.

They were a party of three. An 18/2 hexadin with the axe of the dwarvish lords, a +1 shield and a smattering of lesser magic items. A zealot barbarian with custom made magic gauntlets that allowed him to make 3 attacks a turn, the Hand of Vecna and a charm that gave him half his prof bonus to saving throws he didn’t have a prof in. Third a fighter 1/bard19 sharpshooter who precast a bunch of great buffs, like freedom of movement, heroes’ feast and foresight. He was a substitute, and he was given some lesser magic items and an artifact, I can’t remember which he got.

The party had 2 hours to scout a dungeon and find object that could help them defeat Vecna or weaken him. They fought a few lesser creatures, like an ancient sea serpet, more set up as time wastes than actual challenging fights. The party started picking their fights. The fight started with Vecna getting the drop on the paladin alone, carrying the Book of Vile Darkness and having a Boneclaw lackey. The book gave him Mirror Image, +1AC, -2 STR, +2 Dex(so another +1 ac and attack improvement), and destroyed potions within 10 ft. I decided to ingore the resistance to radiant damage I gave the book. Vecna’s teleports kept him out of reach from quite a few attacks, zipping through narrow corridors.
He dispelled some buffs, most notably Foresight, and lasted for probably 4-5 turns until he dominated the barbarian and the other two decided to flee the battle, both at less than 50 hp. Vecna was at full health at that point, and still had contingency to dinension door to the room of unconscious captives to heal up.

The players blamed not having a 4 character. They did everything they could to kill him, and the bard was definitely built for a fight like this, while the other two were optimized but not metagamed to kill Vecna’s.

Overall it was quite fun, but I wished I lost.

Angelalex242

2022-06-30, 04:37 PM

Hmmm. Try it again, but with a Holy Avenger instead of the axe. I bet it would help.

Anymage

2022-06-30, 05:52 PM

With gear, prebuffs, and a proper build, I have a hunch I could up and OTK Vecna. That says less about his own strength than about the potential inherent in nova builds, and I don't know how you could fix that without pissing off a bunch of players.

Similarly I note that playtests among optimizers found ways to deny Vecna any meaningful actions. Which reminds me that a commoner could solo the tarrasque with enough magic arrows and a fast mount. Action denial beats pretty much anything regardless of stats.

Mid-op parties who already spend some resources are probably the target here. And while 26 does seem a touch high, he does seem like a fair villain for your average high level party.

Dork_Forge

2022-06-30, 06:26 PM

No offense, but this is getting silly. The fundamental problem is you are not actually doing the numbers, whereas i'm staring at the real thing.. Please run a reliable damage calculator..

Multiple users disagree with the numbers you've presented, one of whom used the same calculator you did.

If you have a problem with my math, point to it. I'm not using accuracy adjusted damage, I don't find it a useful metric, that is my choice.

That said, assuming that all GWM attacks hit should be a boon for your argument, yet it clearly isn't.

A VOE paladin with 20 str and GWM/PAM/GWF and a +1 halberd on a round with VOE up, does 198 DPR with no power attack, and on the setup round does 163. (1d10 + 7d8 + 6 *3). Haste is only a 3rd lvl slot so it gains some smite damage actually (an extra 5th lvl slot), but its not necessary to include that difference.

(1d10+7d8+6)*3>(5.5+6+31.5)*3= 129. So are you now claiming that the increased chance of critting and GWF is adding 69 damage?

That just seems absurd.

If you don't like RAW, and want to run RAI (sage advice) With GWF ticked off its ~171. One could also change the build up to optimize for defense, and make him an elf/half elf/shadar kai. On the first round setting up VOE, it does 163. 198 + 163 = Vecna dead in 2 rounds over 50% of the time.

As ff7hero points out, it's in the SAC, this just feels like a favourable ruling to achieve what you set out to prove, GWF should apply to the actual weapon die and nothing else.

How is any Elf/half-Elf defensive? I get the resistance on Shadar-Kai, but the others the only thing I can see is Fey Ancestry?

So, more numbers that you aren't actually explaining and that are substantially higher than the average of auto-hitting?

In the vengeance paladins case, he has 120 feet of fly speed with haste up, which makes the mount somewhat redundant. The lvl 15 feature also guarantees a reaction attack which is going to add up.

Again, relying on two 1 minute duration buffs that you want to cast immediately before the fight. Do you really think that's realistic or reasonable?

And the 15th level feature also increases Vecna's ability to weaponize his reactions...

I'm pretty sure a Shadar Kai vengeance paladin is one of the worst matchups for Vecna amongst the paladins.

Even assuming your favourable buffing, you've not reliably shown that they're actually capable of killing Vecna. And no, spouting numbers without actually working that don't match with what three different posters does not count as reliably showing anything.

A vengeance paladin capstone gives him 60 feet of flight. Haste should double that. The location described in the playtest was also not an open field, but yes, the best strat remains some sort of 'Vecna run away' strat (planeshift, DD etc)

It was literally an open field with a tent on it, which Vecna was never actual inside during the playtest.

The capstone is still nice, especially if Vecna wins initiative. You will drop it at the first opportunity of course. Good catch about the spell attack though, I did not consider that.

If Vecna wins initiative then the capstone is moot, the Paladin has slim chances of surviving long enough to do anything.

Spirit guardians can go off a few times tho. Consider this, you are on your mount flying 20 feet above his reach. Vecna will need to cast flight to reach you in order to use his BA heal. He could of course hit you or your mount with rotten fate every turn from a distance, but as we know, he runs out of hp too fast that way, he needs the heal in order to win the fight. So he teleports in, gets his heal off and hits you in melee a few times, he thus takes SG and then either he takes the damage the next turn or he risks an opportunity attack to escape. Actually his best use is to teleport in at 15 feet (just outside PAM reach), and then fly away. He does lose his melee damage that way though.

What? Vecna can teleport 5ft up, damage the Paladin for the heal, then just proceed to Rotten Fate them, or cast a spell etc. Just because he can use After Thought doesn't mean that he has to. He also just falls out of SG this way, no need to teleport away.

The GWF+Smite ruling is in the Compendium, making this a shaky claim at best.

Exactly.

Running a 2 round fight with one Vecna vs one Paladin 20 seems pretty straightforward, why don't you just actually run through it? This is a thread all about a playtest after all.

Very happy to run Vecna against a Paladin build

Yes, that is a problem, but its not certain death. Vecna is essentially trading off using his big attack for casting a spell (so he loses an action in a sense all the while making you lose your action). He debuffs you well, and he does get his melee attacks off (if he can reach you on your mount, who you should NOT haste), so its not quite a wash, but well its not the end of the world either.

I'm very confused on your point of view, the 3rd attack from Haste seemed essential for getting anywhere near the DPR you needed. Losing that attack, whilst also giving Vecna a turn to get damage in and a heal, whilst also shutting down the Paladin's healing and applying recurring damage, is just going to result in the Paladin dying. Their only hope was nova'ing him down very quickly, Dispelling Haste hard counters that strategy.

Now I am actually not quite sure how to rule the following.. As you are a DM maybe you could help me. Dispel magic is usually set at 3rd lvl or lower and given they don't give slots anymore to monster spellcasters he can't upcast it, so it remains at 3rd lvl correct? So I could upcast haste to 5th lvl, and this triggers the DC check. 10 + 5 vs 1d20 + 6. Is that right? If true, it would be a pretty risky gamble for Vecna, and likely he loses the fight if he misses.

Yes his Dispel is 3rd level, because there's no reason to assume it's cast at a higher level.

Upcasting Haste might work, but it has no upcasting clause. I can't think of any hard and fast RAW on upcasting changing the level of the spell if it doesn't have upcasting built in. So I think using a 5th level slot with it would vary DM to DM whether it would prompt a check.

That said, he's still more likely to pass it than fail, and I disagree that it makes him likely to lose if he fails.

Hitting you with the big attack, seems like a more efficient use of Vecnas action and a similar concentration breaker (even against paladin aura and potential resistances depending on subclass). Hitting you in the first place is ~ 65% ( for con 16) and you would then need to make another roll. With resistances up (eg shadar kai) the big attack would trigger something like a DC 24 con save (about a 75% chance). Thats close to 50/50. (without resistances its about 63% chance to break concentration). This seems better.

It can certainly be better, but I'm trying to not metagame the tactics, Vecna doesn't get to see the Con save modifier, features etc.

Thats how Ludic's calculator runs it, so I didn't think about it. Apparently there is a lengthy back and forth of mutually contradictory statements about the subject from Mearls. *shrug*

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?445735-GWF-Paladin-Reroll-1s-amp-2s-on-Divine-Smite

The back and forth from years ago doesn't really matter, a firm decision was made in the SAC, rerolling anything but weapon dice isn't how GWF works.

Thing is despite saying this it's not true.

Yeah, we have at least two instances mentioned in this thread of 20th level parties being defeated by Vecna.

Hmmm. Try it again, but with a Holy Avenger instead of the axe. I bet it would help.

Of course it would, the Holy Avenger is an extremely powerful magic item that might as well be nicknamed 'The Lich Killer'

Anymage

2022-06-30, 06:57 PM

Upcasting Haste might work, but it has no upcasting clause. I can't think of any hard and fast RAW on upcasting changing the level of the spell if it doesn't have upcasting built in. So I think using a 5th level slot with it would vary DM to DM whether it would prompt a check.

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level.

Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#CastingaSpellataHigherLevel)

So the upcasted Haste would have some protection. Although I do think that upcasting it because you know specifically what level Vecna's Dispel will come out at is in the same vein as having specifically anti-Vecna builds used to argue that he's a cakewalk.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-30, 07:11 PM

Pretty much.

He is weak to a specific strategy that would neuter most casting enemies in 5e.

No, he is weak because his AC, HP, INT are low and he cant defend himself against ranged attacks and is too reliant on reactions. LOS really isn't a deal breaker as it can break many things and isnt a particular of him. You can point out his lack of options to deal with it as another weak spot though

They were a party of three. An 18/2 hexadin with the axe of the dwarvish lords, a +1 shield and a smattering of lesser magic items. A zealot barbarian with custom made magic gauntlets that allowed him to make 3 attacks a turn, the Hand of Vecna and a charm that gave him half his prof bonus to saving throws he didn’t have a prof in. Third a fighter 1/bard19 sharpshooter who precast a bunch of great buffs, like freedom of movement, heroes’ feast and foresight. He was a substitute, and he was given some lesser magic items and an artifact, I can’t remember which he got.

The party had 2 hours to scout a dungeon and find object that could help them defeat Vecna or weaken him. They fought a few lesser creatures, like an ancient sea serpet, more set up as time wastes than actual challenging fights. The party started picking their fights. The fight started with Vecna getting the drop on the paladin alone, carrying the Book of Vile Darkness and having a Boneclaw lackey. The book gave him Mirror Image, +1AC, -2 STR, +2 Dex(so another +1 ac and attack improvement), and destroyed potions within 10 ft. I decided to ingore the resistance to radiant damage I gave the book. Vecna’s teleports kept him out of reach from quite a few attacks, zipping through narrow corridors.
He dispelled some buffs, most notably Foresight, and lasted for probably 4-5 turns until he dominated the barbarian and the other two decided to flee the battle, both at less than 50 hp. Vecna was at full health at that point, and still had contingency to dinension door to the room of unconscious captives to heal up.

The players blamed not having a 4 character. They did everything they could to kill him, and the bard was definitely built for a fight like this, while the other two were optimized but not metagamed to kill Vecna’s.

Overall it was quite fun, but I wished I lost.

Analyzing the fight the first thing that I can point out is that you fixed 2 of his most dire weaknesses. His low AC, (now 20 instead of 18) and his lack of any defensive abilities to deal with ranged attacks with a better dex saving throw and ofc mirror images which is a tremendous boost to him (one that I would do myself, mirror images really help bosses)
Now really the party seems to be really lacking in terms of damage and 3 members really favors Vecna as he can spend 1 reaction each, did the archer missed most of his shots?.
And yeah if you fix Vecna weak spots he will be weak no more. Nice run man and thank you very much for the data

Thunderous Mojo

2022-06-30, 07:12 PM

The players blamed not having a 4 character. They did everything they could to kill him, and the bard was definitely built for a fight like this, while the other two were optimized but not metagamed to kill Vecna’s.

Overall it was quite fun, but I wished I lost.

Thank you for sharing this account. I wager, if the Bard had Simulacrum, the party might have succeeded.

It needed one more caster.

animorte

2022-06-30, 08:24 PM

Sulicius

2022-06-30, 08:41 PM

-snip-

Of course it would, the Holy Avenger is an extremely powerful magic item that might as well be nicknamed 'The Lich Killer'

Holy Avenger isn’t that much of an improvement to the axe of the dwarvish lords. I did allow the extra damage from the “dwarven thrower” to work in melee, since I didn’t want to punish the player for going melee. I don’t remember what random additional features he got, but I think they were pretty good.

And like I said, I decided not to use the radiant resistance I had planned, which would have made the avenger less of a big deal. The paladin and the bard also already had advantage on saving throws against magic stuff, so eh.

Finally: this paladin actually earned his artifact weapon in a two year, 5-20 campaign where he didn’t just fight monsters in white rooms. That’s how you get magic items usually. Ofc you can kit a character out with the perfect items, but that is not how the game works.

Thank you for sharing this account. I wager, if the Bard had Simulacrum, the party might have succeeded.

It needed one more caster.

I mean, with the book I could make Vecna cast sinulacrum too, I just pitied the party.

No, he is weak because his AC, HP, INT are low and he cant defend himself against ranged attacks and is too reliant on reactions. LOS really isn't a deal breaker as it can break many things and isnt a particular of him. You can point out his lack of options to deal with it as another weak spot though

Analyzing the fight the first thing that I can point out is that you fixed 2 of his most dire weaknesses. His low AC, (now 20 instead of 18) and his lack of any defensive abilities to deal with ranged attacks with a better dex saving throw and ofc mirror images which is a tremendous boost to him (one that I would do myself, mirror images really help bosses)
Now really the party seems to be really lacking in terms of damage and 3 members really favors Vecna as he can spend 1 reaction each, did the archer missed most of his shots?.
And yeah if you fix Vecna weak spots he will be weak no more. Nice run man and thank you very much for the data

The difference between 18 and 20AC only really mattered to the sharpshooter valor bard, the others pretty much always hit. Actually playing a campaign at high level will make you experience the huge attack bonuses the players get with +3 weapons.
Mirror Image dodged 2 attacks, I “forgot” the third to keep the player’s spirits high.

They seem lacking in damage? What are you on about? I had a barbarian with 3 attacks that dealt 2d10 force+STR and an additional 2d8 cold damage, and +2 damage for each consecutive hit.

They each could easily pump out 100 damage a turn with a little luck.

Try playing Vecna. Try playing Vecna against an actual party that reached 20th level. Theorizing in white rooms is useless. I’d even say running the DNDBEYOND adventure is a joke, since all they want that adventure to do is make Stranger Things fans to have a fun time killing Vecna.

Sulicius

2022-06-30, 08:48 PM

Let's also take into account the battlefield at hand and catching one party member alone, even for the briefest moment. I believe both of those make quite a difference. I agree that an extra caster would have turned the tables (perhaps not entirely), acquired by whatever means. Catch somebody on your turf, it's a new ball game.

For sure! Just like a 5th member would add to the chances of the players.

The pc’s were separated because one of them was mere seconds away from solving a puzzle which would have taken away the Book of Vile Darkness from Vecna. The others were just too late getting a legendary bow from an npc in the dungeon.

So the players knew that something like this could happen, as the clock struck 2 hours and they were not together. Even then, the paladin charged towards Vecna, since we all know one paladin can solo him. /s.

Everything I did, I did to show Vecna was smart. Smarter than me as a person. Vecna wouldn’t stick around in a fight he was losing. If your pc’s are allowed to play smart with negative int modifiers, but not your lich, you’re not doing Vecna justice.

Rafaelfras

2022-06-30, 09:15 PM

They seem lacking in damage? What are you on about? I had a barbarian with 3 attacks that dealt 2d10 force+STR and an additional 2d8 cold damage, and +2 damage for each consecutive hit.

They each could easily pump out 100 damage a turn with a little luck.

Try playing Vecna. Try playing Vecna against an actual party that reached 20th level. Theorizing in white rooms is useless. I’d even say running the DNDBEYOND adventure is a joke, since all they want that adventure to do is make Stranger Things fans to have a fun time killing Vecna.

For the fight, that is , not in general. If each can pump 100 damage a turn (which is what i expect from 20th lvl players) how Vecna survived with his 272 hp? The damage during the fight was lacking.

Sure I will run him when I get the chance to reunite my party, but that dosent happen always so for now I am limited to my experience

animorte

2022-06-30, 09:55 PM

Everything I did, I did to show Vecna was smart. Smarter than me as a person. Vecna wouldn’t stick around in a fight he was losing. If your pc’s are allowed to play smart with negative int modifiers, but not your lich, you’re not doing Vecna justice.

I remember seeing things relevant to this in different areas. The ability to have the character do things that you, as a person, likely are incapable of is a strong element of immersion. This was seen in the Rick and Morty D&D comic in which the father guy (Idk, don't watch the show) was incredibly smart because he was playing a Wizard, despite being a buffoon IRL.

A thread a couple months ago mentioned that an Ancient Dragon is extremely unlikely to stand around letting the party smack him to death when he has alternative combat methods.

I love play-testing for this reason precisely. So many different results from so many different people. Oh, maybe that's just the nature of the game. Let's keep running these and update here. I should have some time eventually to run it soon and contribute results of my group.

Kane0

2022-06-30, 10:08 PM

Indeed, the elder brain dragon that we just fought at level 10 with a dozen npcs helping would have turned out very different if it didnt bother to land

x3n0n

2022-06-30, 10:19 PM

If each can pump 100 damage a turn (which is what i expect from 20th lvl players)

A 20th-level Champion with max Dex, a +3 Longbow, and the Archery fighting style is +16 to hit for 1d8+8, which is 50.2 DPR vs AC 18, so 100.4 on Action Surge turns.
In a Basic Rules game (https://dnd.wizards.com/what-is-dnd/basic-rules; Champ/Thief/Evoker/Life, Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling, very limited spells, very limited magic items), I believe that's the highest-output ranged damage in the ruleset. (A Thief with a +3 Longbow and advantage every turn gets roughly 50 as well, so also roughly 100 on the first round in which he gets two turns.)

So in the basic rules, the highest-output ranged attackers with the best items available would deal 100ish in their nova round and 50ish on a normal turn vs Vecna.

Expecting ALL 20th-level characters to deal 100 resourceless DPR vs AC 18 seems like your expectations may be higher than the base assumptions of the game.

(I'm fully aware that feats and higher-damage subclasses exist, even in the PHB, but is it fair to expect every single character to deal 2x the highest damage that is available in the basic rules?)

Rafaelfras

2022-06-30, 10:43 PM

A 20th-level Champion with max Dex, a +3 Longbow, and the Archery fighting style is +16 to hit for 1d8+8, which is 50.2 DPR vs AC 18, so 100.4 on Action Surge turns.
In a Basic Rules game (https://dnd.wizards.com/what-is-dnd/basic-rules; Champ/Thief/Evoker/Life, Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling, very limited spells, very limited magic items), I believe that's the highest-output ranged damage in the ruleset. (A Thief with a +3 Longbow and advantage every turn gets roughly 50 as well, so also roughly 100 on the first round in which he gets two turns.)

So in the basic rules, the highest-output ranged attackers with the best items available would deal 100ish in their nova round and 50ish on a normal turn vs Vecna.

Expecting ALL 20th-level characters to deal 100 resourceless DPR vs AC 18 seems like your expectations may be higher than the base assumptions of the game.

(I'm fully aware that feats and higher-damage subclasses exist, even in the PHB, but is it fair to expect every single character to deal 2x the highest damage that is available in the basic rules?)

We are not using basic rules, we are using core rules, an encounter have to be balanced for full core (PHB MM DMG) and I didn't said all, neither 100 resourceless nor DPR, I said it is expected that a level 20 character can pull 100 damage on a given turn, either going nova or getting a lucky crit or whatever method is available to them. And I think it is a fair assumption

ff7hero

2022-06-30, 10:46 PM

We are not using basic rules, we are using core rules, an encounter have to be balanced for full core (PHB MM DMG) and I didn't said all, neither 100 resourceless nor DPR, I said it is expected that a level 20 character can pull 100 damage on a given turn, either going nova or getting a lucky crit or whatever method is available to them. And I think it is a fair assumption

My Bard from the OP (who imho was instrumental in beating Vecna) would likely struggle to hit 100 DPR even when going Nova (especially vs Vecna since I'm pretty sure his best nova was Animate Objects...). Damage isn't everything, and characters can bring enough other perks to the table to overcome lack luster damage.

animorte

2022-06-30, 11:00 PM

Rafaelfras

2022-06-30, 11:12 PM

Hael

2022-07-01, 12:34 AM

Multiple users disagree with the numbers you've presented, one of whom used the same calculator you did. '

No.. No they don't. One user replicated the results exactly (he just didn't use GWF, which would give the exact desired result). Mojo and my result were off by 4dpr, and his was HIGHER.. Something like that could be explained by different smite slot usage or something trivial.

In either event, the math is correct. I'm sorry that you think its "absurd", but I don't really have anything left to add other than you are dead wrong.

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 01:18 AM

I mean, if you’re done arguing about numbers, I’d love to run the one-shot I made for Vecna for any of you.

These sterile scenario’s are nonsense in my opinion, playing D&D is way more fun!

I run on Roll20 with voice through discord. I am on CET, which could complicate things things.

ff7hero

2022-07-01, 01:34 AM

I mean, if you’re done arguing about numbers, I’d love to run the one-shot I made for Vecna.

These sterile scenario’s are nonsense in my opinion, playing D&D is way more fun!

I run on Roll20 with voice through discord. I am on CET, which could complicate things things.

That's UTC+1? Despite residing in EST land, my sleeping schedule is kind of...all over the place.

My Discord is Hero#0185 if you want to hit me up.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-07-01, 08:33 AM

My Bard from the OP (who imho was instrumental in beating Vecna) would likely struggle to hit 100 DPR even when going Nova (especially vs Vecna since I'm pretty sure his best nova was Animate Objects...). Damage isn't everything, and characters can bring enough other perks to the table to overcome lack luster damage.

Absolutely, If/When I ever manage to get my DM to run it for our Mad Mage campaign characters I'd expect that just like in our recent encounter with Klauth that my paladins presence alone makes the difference. I definitely dealt the least overall damage in the encounter but having stopped the party from taking a hit from his breath attack, disintegrate or psychic scream the damage I enabled was likely very high.

This is the part most difficult (likely impossible) to gauge in the white room dps calculations because it's all about utility and positioning.

Psyren

2022-07-01, 09:33 AM

he cant defend himself against ranged attacks

He gets a free 30' teleport whenever someone lands one, and that's not a defense to you?

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 12:17 PM

Envyus

2022-07-01, 12:23 PM

Rafaelfras

2022-07-01, 12:31 PM

He gets a free 30' teleport whenever someone lands one, and that's not a defense to you?
No?
Unless he can take cover it is just mobility, what good getting 9 meters farther (or closer) from an archer will do to you? He will just keep shooting, and since he can move the same 30 feet (or more) because is his turn and he can move between attacks he can circumvent your cover and finish his attack action, if the attack pattern is 1 big hit like a rogue or a spell (i.e. an evoker magic missile) then the teleport is completely ineffective (and yes I know, against a spell Vecna will spend his reaction on counter spell )
With low AC and HP you really need something to avoid the attack, not after the damage is done
His mobility is very effective against low mobility multihitting melee characters that's for sure, but this is a very small sect of archetypes and if you are facing more than 3 enemies you shouldn't really spend a reaction that could be better used to get off melee or stop a spell

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 12:36 PM

No?
Unless he can take cover it is just mobility, what good getting 9 meters farther (or closer) from an archer will do to you? He will just keep shooting, and since he can move the same 30 feet (or more) because is his turn and he can move between attacks he can circumvent your cover and finish his attack action, if the attack pattern is 1 big hit like a rogue or a spell (i.e. an evoker magic missile) then the teleport is completely ineffective (and yes I know, against a spell Vecna will spend his reaction on counter spell )
With low AC and HP you really need something to avoid the attack, not after the damage is done
His mobility is very effective against low mobility multihitting melee characters that's for sure, but this is a very small sect of archetypes and if you are facing more than 3 enemies you shouldn't really spend a reaction that could be better used to get off melee or stop a spell

In my test he avoided many attacks with the teleportations. Turns out his mobility is amazing and he can kite the party. 30 ft. Isn’t much, but 90 is a lot when he zooms through corridors of a dungeon. Ranged attackers do best in white rooms.

Wanna join my next test? We can play online on Roll20, you’ll have fun!

Rafaelfras

2022-07-01, 12:58 PM

In my test he avoided many attacks with the teleportations. Turns out his mobility is amazing and he can kite the party. 30 ft. Isn’t much, but 90 is a lot when he zooms through corridors of a dungeon. Ranged attackers do best in white rooms.

Wanna join my next test? We can play online on Roll20, you’ll have fun!
Oh man I would really love it! But I can't
My schedule is crazy, having kids and all and I live in Brazil
But really thank you I would have fun

Psyren

2022-07-01, 01:25 PM

Unless he can take cover it is just mobility,

If you're assuming a giant featureless empty plain then sure, it doesn't do anything. Most fights don't happen in those.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 01:41 PM

The thing about Vecna is that unless you nova his HP away super fast there is a good chance he just heals it all up.

The 80 HP heal is great, and many high damage builds want at least two attacks, which can be hard to land on Vecna.

‘Red Blasting Deck’ over the top of Vecna’s Hit Points is a single strategy, but not the only viable one.

If one can stop Vecna from healing, and escaping, then Nova damage is not required.

That is why Hero’s use of Druid’s Grove was such an excellent choice.
With a single spell, Hero shut down a great deal of Vecna’s offensive and Defensive output…and by using Telekinesis/Forcecage/Counterspell…Hero essentially denied him other critical actions.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-07-01, 02:06 PM

If you're assuming a giant featureless empty plain then sure, it doesn't do anything. Most fights don't happen in those.

The teleport is once per turn and takes one of his reactions, if he can't take cover by moving 30ft or take cover in a way that the attacker can't reposition to counter with then it doesn't accomplish much. That isn't to say there won't be times it's useful for this purpose but it's not some sort of ironclad defense. A Kensei Archer monk, just to list one example, is likely unbothered by this and definitely has enough ability to chase.

animorte

2022-07-01, 02:11 PM

If one can stop Vecna from healing, and escaping, then Nova damage is not required.

You can prevent healing for 1 round with a cantrip. Maybe a waste of action because it requires a save, but a cantrip worth 80 damage (or HP depending on how you look at it) is pretty sweet, not including the damage it will actually provide itself. Again, on a failed save of course.

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 02:50 PM

The teleport is once per turn and takes one of his reactions, if he can't take cover by moving 30ft or take cover in a way that the attacker can't reposition to counter with then it doesn't accomplish much. That isn't to say there won't be times it's useful for this purpose but it's not some sort of ironclad defense. A Kensei Archer monk, just to list one example, is likely unbothered by this and definitely has enough ability to chase.

He can and I did. Imagine a dungeon.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-07-01, 03:24 PM

He can and I did. Imagine a dungeon.

I didn't say he couldn't, I said it's not a foolproof defense against ranged attacks. In the times where he can't (which is also a possibility) the teleport is a near worthless defensive option.

In the event that he can't teleport, which was utilized in the original example, then what?

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 03:46 PM

I didn't say he couldn't, I said it's not a foolproof defense against ranged attacks. In the times where he can't (which is also a possibility) the teleport is a near worthless defensive option.

In the event that he can't teleport, which was utilized in the original example, then what?

The players metagamed to find the one spell that countered everything Vecna could do? I would congratulate the player and tell them to do something else with their wish.

What if a tarrasque can’t attack? What if a wizard can’t cast spells? Well then it’s over. Easy as that.

The problem is with the spells, not the monster. Many monster’s abilities and spells wouldn’t hold up against such tactics. Which would make it a tactic that is undeniably best with every creature that relies on sight or spells or attacks. Players can do it every time, and the DM has to change the monsters to be more complex and annoying to run.

More AC or more HP or even another 9th level spell wont change much about it.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 04:01 PM

You can prevent healing for 1 round with a cantrip. Maybe a waste of action because it requires a save, but a cantrip worth 80 damage (or HP depending on how you look at it) is pretty sweet, not including the damage it will actually provide itself. Again, on a failed save of course.

Chill Touch is an attack. The cleric build I was using had Magic Initiate, so I could have Chill Touch as an option.

I used Chill Touch on round 2. I missed…and Vecna healed for 80 hp.

The 3rd level spell Spirit Shroud also can prevent a target from healing.
(I’ve been surprised the solo Paladin tangent has not brought up the spell
as an option)

Psyren

2022-07-01, 04:02 PM

I didn't say he couldn't, I said it's not a foolproof defense against ranged attacks.

A defense doesn't have to be "foolproof" to be a defense.

In the event that he can't teleport, which was utilized in the original example, then what?

Because of a spell that doesn't work in buildings? No boss fights ever happen in those right?

ProsecutorGodot

2022-07-01, 04:03 PM

The players metagamed to find the one spell that countered everything Vecna could do? I would congratulate the player and tell them to do something else with their wish.

What if a tarrasque can’t attack? What if a wizard can’t cast spells? Well then it’s over. Easy as that.

The problem is with the spells, not the monster. Many monster’s abilities and spells wouldn’t hold up against such tactics. Which would make it a tactic that is undeniably best with every creature that relies on sight or spells or attacks. Players can do it every time, and the DM has to change the monsters to be more complex and annoying to run.

More AC or more HP or even another 9th level spell wont change much about it.

I think it's uncharitable to call it metagaming, these are epic level heroes, it should be assumed they've fought a spellcaster before. A few of them are spellcasters, they're very aware of what will typically foil magical attacks.

And you're probably right, but blindsense would, and that was the suggestion made.

Because of a spell that doesn't work in buildings? No boss fights ever happen in those right?
What an argument, fights never happen outside of those either I assume :smallconfused:

The 3rd level spell Spirit Shroud also can prevent a target from healing.
(I’ve been surprised the solo Paladin tangent has not brought up the spell
as an option)
Oh, so it does, I'd completely forgotten. Noting that down for later.

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 04:09 PM

I think it's uncharitable to call it metagaming, these are epic level heroes, it should be assumed they've fought a spellcaster before. A few of them are spellcasters, they're very aware of what will typically foil magical attacks.

And you're probably right, but blindsense would, and that was the suggestion made.

What an argument, fights never happen outside of those either I assume :smallconfused:

It was 100% metagaming. The character was made out of thin air and probably has never seen Druid’s Grove being cast. I sure haven’t. It wouldn’t even work in Vecna’s lair.

The player read Vecna’s stat block, and based on that built their character. Doesn’t get more metagaming than that.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 04:10 PM

The problem is with the spells, not the monster. Many monster’s abilities and spells wouldn’t hold up against such tactics. Which would make it a tactic that is undeniably best with every creature that relies on sight or spells or attacks.

The ‘Problem’ is the fact that so many abilities are dependent upon Sight, in 5e. I said that in the original post….Vecna needs Blindsight.

One aspect of Dread Counterspell, that I have discussed with others, is that Dread Counterspell has no range.

Give Vecna a Crystal Ball, and a blood sample of a target, and Vecna can Counterspell the target from any Prime Material Location…which could be an entirely different world.

I find that really cool. (Though I wish the Vecna block could Scry at will)

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 04:23 PM

The ‘Problem’ is the fact that so many abilities are dependent upon Sight, in 5e. I said that in the original post….Vecna needs Blindsight.

One aspect of Dread Counterspell, that I have discussed with others, is that Dread Counterspell has no range.

Give Vecna a Crystal Ball, and a blood sample of a target, and Vecna can Counterspell the target from any Prime Material Location…which could be an entirely different world.

I find that really cool. (Though I wish the Vecna block could Scry at will)

I mean, does every high CR creature need blindsight not to be neutered by the one spell? I’d rather veto the spell and not frustrate my players with blindsight shenanigans. Blindsight would be too much of a thing, and I find that having Vecna’s fight to be all about blindsight a dull encounter. Ofc I can make Vecna immune to everything the players can do, but I’d rather keep him like this.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 04:24 PM

Because of a spell that doesn't work in buildings? No boss fights ever happen in those right?

Substitute a Fog Cloud, Ever-smoking bottle, good old smoke, or a burlap sack over Vecna’s head and all achieve the same end as Druid’s Grove did…indoors.

If you think a CR 26 Wizard, that by lore, is supposed to be one of the most powerful Magic Users, (or the most powerful Magic User),on Oerth never leaves their house…sure…ok.

High Level Wizards in D&D are often depicted as traveling the multiverse.

This is an aside, I’ve always assume ‘Vecna’ is an anagram of ‘Vance’.
Jack Vance’s Wizards in the Lyonesse Trilogy go outside, and even make Clones of themselves adapted to survive on worlds that would be inimical to Humans.

Sulicius, most high CR Creatures have Truesight, including Vecna.
Not sure why Blindsight, is one toke over the line, (as the song states)?

Simple solution is to write powers that do not require Line of Sight.
Isn’t that the entire point of the new spell block, to put more of the rules right in the statblock?

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 04:27 PM

Substitute a Fog Cloud, Ever-smoking bottle, good old smoke, or a burlap sack over Vecna’s head all achieve the same end as Druid’s Grove did…indoors.

If you think a CR 26 Wizard, that by lore, is supposed to be one of the most powerful Magic Users, (or the most powerful Magic User),on Oerth never leaves their house…sure…ok.

High Level Wizards in D&D are often depicted as traveling the multiverse.

This is an aside, I’ve always assume ‘Vecna’ is an anagram of ‘Vance’.
Jack Vance’s Wizards in the Lyonesse Trilogy go outside, and even make Clones of themselves adapted to survive on worlds that would be inimical to Humans.

Wasn’t the whole point that the party DID have vision? So this is not the same at all. If the party can’t see Vecna, he can dimension door out.

Anymage

2022-07-01, 04:30 PM

It was 100% metagaming. The character was made out of thin air and probably has never seen Druid’s Grove being cast. I sure haven’t. It wouldn’t even work in Vecna’s lair.

The player read Vecna’s stat block, and based on that built their character. Doesn’t get more metagaming than that.

The tactic is effective against anything human sized and that requires sight. That's not an unreasonable expectation for Vecna. If the encounter happens indoors you could swap out for Guards and Wards. All this has more to do with how Wish can do a lot of wacky stuff more than any building around the Vecna statblock specifically.

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 04:38 PM

The tactic is effective against anything human sized and that requires sight. That's not an unreasonable expectation for Vecna. If the encounter happens indoors you could swap out for Guards and Wards. All this has more to do with how Wish can do a lot of wacky stuff more than any building around the Vecna statblock specifically.

And yet, the player chose a spell because of its mechanical interaction with the specific knowledge of Vecna’s abilities. Are you telling me it is a usual tactic that all casters of wish use against all humanoid monsters every fight?

Guards and Wards does work similarly. I’d also ask the player *not to* so we can play D&D instead of one-sided whack-a-Vecna.

I might sound like I am antagonistic against things the players can do, but remember that the DM always loses fights already. The least players can do is not to have the DM not have fun because they abuse mechanics.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 04:47 PM

Wasn’t the whole point that the party DID have vision? So this is not the same at all. If the party can’t see Vecna, he can dimension door out.

Absolutely. Tasha’s has made PC Blindsight just a feat or multi-class dip away. I try to be precise in my use of language, but alas, miscommunication happens.

The examples I gave previously were never advertised as being the same as Druid’s Grove..but to achieve the same end, Vecna can’t see. For clarity, I should have said, Similar End, as that was my intent.

Being indoors, makes Vecna wrangling more complicated, but options still abound.

ff7hero

2022-07-01, 04:55 PM

It was 100% metagaming. The character was made out of thin air and probably has never seen Druid’s Grove being cast. I sure haven’t.

That's a whole lot of ad hoc Wish nerfing.

The player read Vecna’s stat block, and based on that built their character. Doesn’t get more metagaming than that.

I never looked at Vecna's block prior to the Encounter ending. I knew I was facing Vecna and built one of the better anti-casters, sure, but it's also one of my favorite characters (its a slightly modified version of a character I'm using in an ongoing game).

Also the specific build choice you're talking about is "took Wish" which is something that is pretty much universally done as soon as it's possible.

Rafaelfras

2022-07-01, 05:00 PM

Substitute a Fog Cloud, Ever-smoking bottle, good old smoke, or a burlap sack over Vecna’s head and all achieve the same end as Druid’s Grove did…indoors.

If you think a CR 26 Wizard, that by lore, is supposed to be one of the most powerful Magic Users, (or the most powerful Magic User),on Oerth never leaves their house…sure…ok.

High Level Wizards in D&D are often depicted as traveling the multiverse.

This is an aside, I’ve always assume ‘Vecna’ is an anagram of ‘Vance’.
Jack Vance’s Wizards in the Lyonesse Trilogy go outside, and even make Clones of themselves adapted to survive on worlds that would be inimical to Humans.

Sulicius, most high CR Creatures have Truesight, including Vecna.
Not sure why Blindsight, is one toke over the line, (as the song states)?

Simple solution is to write powers that do not require Line of Sight.
Isn’t that the entire point of the new spell block, to put more of the rules right in the statblock?
That's the point we circle back again and again. The stat block is bad representation of Vecna or any epic wizard that it should represent. The point is made and I will not repeat everything again. But his lack of a proper spell list also deprives him of possible answers to cheese tactics while not letting him so vulnerable to a, in my opinion, too great number of combinations.
And yeah I don't see as a good argument in favor of his desing if he simply break if you fight him outside a dungeon

Psyren

2022-07-01, 05:11 PM

Substitute a Fog Cloud, Ever-smoking bottle, good old smoke, or a burlap sack over Vecna’s head and all achieve the same end as Druid’s Grove did…indoors.

And your allies can see through all of those to keep counterspelling him right?

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 05:23 PM

And yet, the player chose a spell because of its mechanical interaction with the specific knowledge of Vecna’s abilities.

Hero, had not seen Vecna’s stats. The Bard used is their actual PC from another game.

I had just glanced at Vecna’s stats, and moments later received the invite to Playtest. I absolutely used a Cleric to see if Divine Intervention: Hallow could be a 5e equivalent Dimensional Anchor spell.

Dork Forge, had read Vecna’s stats, which in part, explains why they went with a Psi Warrior…wether you know the stats or not…Psi Warriors will often just fly straight at something and beat it to submission….or use the ‘Force’ to grab something, bring it close, and beat it to submission.

Essentially, Sulicius, having an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules, including spells would be metagaming. Perhaps, It is…but the consequence of that definition is any competent player is guilty of metagaming.

Hero and Dork Forge are both strong players, that knew their characters, and also both have excellent timing. Having all the right resources, but using them at the wrong time, will result in failure.

To use a term from the card game Uker, showing up to a D&D session with a well designed PC, is not the equivalent to a ‘Lay down, ‘Lone hand’.

How you play it, matters.

Psyren, Vecna can’t Counterspell a Sack over their head, can they?

(There is a reason why I was so effusive about Druid’s Grove right from the start..It was an exceptional play, given the circumstances, and a Wish was used to cast it.)

Why do people want to 💩on good play?

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 05:31 PM

That's the point we circle back again and again. The stat block is bad representation of Vecna or any epic wizard that it should represent. The point is made and I will not repeat everything again. But his lack of a proper spell list also deprives him of possible answers to cheese tactics while not letting him so vulnerable to a, in my opinion, too great number of combinations.
And yeah I don't see as a good argument in favor of his desing if he simply break if you fight him outside a dungeon

In the example battle the DM allowed the Hallow spell cast with Divine Intervention, which they didn’t have to. Any DM could very easily grant the player a different boon, just so that Vecna could still teleport. And I also just read he still got a charisma save to ignore the teleblock? He could have used LR and gotten out of the area.

Vecna somehow started the turn in range of both effects, without getting a turn. So he was just tossed onto the map with a bad initiative roll. Why would Vecna do that? If I had Vecna walk into a room, I would do it *on his turn*.

Vecna lost because of a misplay of Geryon, two spells that require 24hr to cast, one of which was played wrong. I think Vecna deserves a round two.

But yeah, a lot of people have voiced their disappointment with Vecna’s statblock compared to how they imagine a lich lord. I don’t mind that much. I like that they made a monster that was very unique and fun to play. By all means, build your own lich, but I don’t think you can solve all high level spell nonsense with adding blindsight to every monster because of these edgecases.

Thunderous Mojo

2022-07-01, 05:52 PM

In the example battle the DM allowed the Hallow spell cast with Divine Intervention, which they didn’t have to. Any DM could very easily grant the player a different boon, just so that Vecna could still teleport. And I also just read he still got a charisma save to ignore the teleblock? He could have used LR and gotten out of the area.

From Divine Intervention:
The DM chooses the nature ofthe intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate.

The DM could have chose to have the 20th level cleric’s God, Gate in the Avatar of Bahmut, it they wanted to.

A Hallow spell is a tame use of Divine Intervention, in my estimation.
(The error in the handling of Hallow has been long acknowledged, BtW).

Also, Sul…this was a playtest…we all wanted to see what happened…what value is there in a DM overriding the players will, and substituting their own?

Is your intention to demonstrate the Vecna Statblock is fine?
I encourage your to run your own test and post the results…I would love to read them.

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 06:19 PM

They were a party of three. An 18/2 hexadin with the axe of the dwarvish lords, a +1 shield and a smattering of lesser magic items. A zealot barbarian with custom made magic gauntlets that allowed him to make 3 attacks a turn, the Hand of Vecna and a charm that gave him half his prof bonus to saving throws he didn’t have a prof in. Third a fighter 1/bard19 sharpshooter who precast a bunch of great buffs, like freedom of movement, heroes’ feast and foresight. He was a substitute, and he was given some lesser magic items and an artifact, I can’t remember which he got.

The party had 2 hours to scout a dungeon and find object that could help them defeat Vecna or weaken him. They fought a few lesser creatures, like an ancient sea serpet, more set up as time wastes than actual challenging fights. The party started picking their fights. The fight started with Vecna getting the drop on the paladin alone, carrying the Book of Vile Darkness and having a Boneclaw lackey. The book gave him Mirror Image, +1AC, -2 STR, +2 Dex(so another +1 ac and attack improvement), and destroyed potions within 10 ft. I decided to ignore the resistance to radiant damage I gave the book. Vecna’s teleports kept him out of reach from quite a few attacks, zipping through narrow corridors.
He dispelled some buffs, most notably Foresight, and lasted for probably 4-5 turns until he dominated the barbarian and the other two decided to flee the battle, both at less than 50 hp. Vecna was at full health at that point, and still had contingency to dimension door to the room of unconscious captives to heal up.

The players blamed not having a 4 character. They did everything they could to kill him, and the bard was definitely built for a fight like this, while the other two were optimized but not metagamed to kill Vecna’s.

Overall it was quite fun, but I wished I lost.

Is your intention to demonstrate the Vecna Statblock is fine?
I encourage your to run your own test and post the results…I would love to read them.

I did!

And yes a DM could also have Divine Intervention insta-kill Vecna, but we’re trying to challenge the players, right? It’s the responsibility of the DM to challenge the players in a way they enjoy. Of they enjou that, I’m probably gonna have a hard time being a DM for them.

Rafaelfras

2022-07-01, 08:15 PM

I did!

And yes a DM could also have Divine Intervention insta-kill Vecna, but we’re trying to challenge the players, right? It’s the responsibility of the DM to challenge the players in a way they enjoy. Of they enjou that, I’m probably gonna have a hard time being a DM for them.

Yeah but a hallow is very well within the bounds of a divine intervention.
Dispell magic which Vecna has access to (at least that) can dispel the effect if he had slots you could even upcast and skip the rolling, but allas, requiring the use of a 3rd level at will (for him) spell to end an effect gotten via the most powerful ability a cleric can summon isnt too much to ask.

Also dipel magic does not require sight so while you are at it you can dispel the druid grove or other effects too

ff7hero

2022-07-01, 09:00 PM

Also dipel magic does not require sight so while you are at it you can dispel the druid grove or other effects too

Two Counterspellers would complicate that.

Rafaelfras

2022-07-01, 09:07 PM

Two Counterspellers would complicate that.

Hahahahaha
Omg I just hate this Vecna so much...

Anymage

2022-07-01, 09:53 PM

Rafaelfras

2022-07-01, 11:03 PM

One counterspeller. Because you can see Vecna, but due to the effect he still can't see you to counter-counterspell.

And aside from turning the whole thing into a guessing game of what level slot a slot-based casting enemy uses for their Dispel *, I don't see how the outcome would be any different with a pure PHB Wiz 20.

*Or hoping that they can use some spell to run away. Which Vecna has 2x Invisibility, 2x Dimension Door, 1x Globe of Invulnerability (which makes him immune to Counterspell because it would prevent him from being targetable), and 1x Plane Shift to get away. All the above compete with his action for Dispel, and all of them are counterable. Which again, except for the guessing game of which level slot was used to cast a spell, I don't see how a slot based enemy is in any different shape.
If anything, he can upcast dispel magic, roll a dice instead of automatic failure is already an improvement. Now a lvl 20 wizard would have a wish of his own, or any other 9th level spell, true defensive abilities, like blink, force wall, mirror image, SHIELD, greater invisibility and so many others. A Wizard would also try to outrange the counter spell before anything else and then try to cast something that would prevent future counter spells

Sulicius

2022-07-01, 11:08 PM

Yeah but a hallow is very well within the bounds of a divine intervention.
Dispell magic which Vecna has access to (at least that) can dispel the effect if he had slots you could even upcast and skip the rolling, but allas, requiring the use of a 3rd level at will (for him) spell to end an effect gotten via the most powerful ability a cleric can summon isnt too much to ask.

Also dipel magic does not require sight so while you are at it you can dispel the druid grove or other effects too

Within the bounds or not, the DM would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don’t get why the DM is supposed to be stupid in this situation.

ecarden

2022-07-01, 11:19 PM

Within the bounds or not, the DM would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don’t get why the DM is supposed to be stupid in this situation.

I disagree it's stupid to allow it. There was a minor mistake in play which would have made it far less effective than hoped for, but that always happens. Vecna would have either made his save, or used an LR, as would Geryon, so they wouldn't have been nearly so locked down.

But more generally, I will say that I'm not entirely sure what standards folks are looking bosses to meet? Are they supposed to just not be soloable by level appropriate characters (outside of flukes like the Paladin rolling 3 crits in a row?) or something more? I mean, a pretty optimized and fresh level 20 party ought to be able to have a reasonable expectation of winning against any boss in the game. If they don't, then don't bother to stat the boss out.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-07-01, 11:39 PM

Within the bounds or not, the DM would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don’t get why the DM is supposed to be stupid in this situation.

I want to clarify, are you suggesting that the DM should not allow the player a largely beneficial effect for Wish or Divine Intervention if it would in any way make the encounter easier?

The DM is not a part of this fight, the fight is between Vecna and the party. Nobody at the table is being stupid here, the DM is adjudicating the rules that simulate a battle between epic heroes and an archlich. If the party is banking on the Cleric's god to provide an effect that will aid them, the Cleric who is powerful and important enough to the god that their response is guaranteed at least once, then it should be something useful regardless of how terrible that ends up for Vecna.

Sulicius

2022-07-02, 12:20 AM

I want to clarify, are you suggesting that the DM should not allow the player a largely beneficial effect for Wish or Divine Intervention if it would in any way make the encounter easier?

The DM is not a part of this fight, the fight is between Vecna and the party. Nobody at the table is being stupid here, the DM is adjudicating the rules that simulate a battle between epic heroes and an archlich. If the party is banking on the Cleric's god to provide an effect that will aid them, the Cleric who is powerful and important enough to the god that their response is guaranteed at least once, then it should be something useful regardless of how terrible that ends up for Vecna.

Yes, the DM should make decisions in running D&D that make the game most fun for everyone at the table. If Divine Intervention was intended to always make the effect of any cleric spell the player wants it to be, the ability would have said so. Instead, it says that effect of ANY cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate. The pc must call for help, not call out a specific spell to be cast with one action. The deity could grant any number of spells that have similar effects, but it is up to the DM to decide. It is not weird at all for the DM to decide that a spell cast in 24 hours will not be the effect of the intervention.

If you want to take the DM out of the equation, which is against RAW and RAI, then go play a video game. Or try write a script that runs monsters, I bet the game becomes more fun that way.

All I care about as a DM, is that my final boss isn’t put out of action before turn 3. Spending hours and hours of making a dungeon, villainous plots and story hooks just to shoot myself in the foot after that is masochistic. Maybe a DM and their group of players love having bosses die without them doing their signature abilities, but not me.