Anyway to justify Disguise Self not working with Assume Supernatural Ability?

[wefoij123]

This all starts with Minor Change Shape working with Assume Supernatural Ability so lets get that over with first.


You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.

When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature

Since Minor Change Shape lets you assume the form of creatures and Assume Supernatural Ability requires you to assume the form of creatures, Minor Change Shape works with Assume Supernatural Ability.


Counter Claim 1: Racial Emulation is a mistake.

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a full-round action.

A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shape has the shapechanger subtype.

A creature of the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Changing Forms
...
A Thousand Faces
At 13th level, a druid gains the supernatural ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the disguise self spell, but only while in her natural form. This change affects the druid’s body but not her possessions. It isn’t an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of the druid’s appearance, within the limits described for the spell.

This is not a mistake. Minor Change Shape is intentionally a form altering ability. It lets you assume the form of other creatures. And Racial Emulation just made it all official. It did not add any new rules and it does not conflict with any existing rule.

I will not be entertaining anyone who claims Racial Emulation is written by a strung out overworked WotC employee who mixed up his vocabulary.

Counter Claim 2: Assume Supernatural Ability requires you to use something specifically similar to Polymorph.
First and foremost, Occam's Razor: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25500209&postcount=30

But lets assume the opposite. Lets assume that the feat is asking for something specifically similar to polymorph.


Alternate Form: Shauganttha can assume the form of a Tiny to Large viper (see the Snake entry in the Monster Manual). This ability is similar to a shapechange spell cast by a 19thlevel sorcerer but allows only viper forms. He uses the viper’s poison since he has no poison attack of his own.


Alternate Form (Su): At 2nd level a barghest can assume the form of a goblin or an unusually large wolf as a standard action. This is similar to using the polymorph self spell but allows only these two forms.


Alternate Form (Su): A rakshasa can assume any humanoid form, or revert to its own form, as a standard action. This ability is similar to the alter self spell cast by an 18th-level sorcerer. A rakshasa can use this ability the indicated number of times per day at the indicated duration. Eventually the rakshasa can remain in an alternate form indefinitely
This is 3 quotes in Savage Species that directly says the Alternate Form is an ability that is similar to Shapechange, Polymorph Self, and Alter Self.

This is 3.0 Alter Self

The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. The character's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and the character's weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected has wings, The character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, the character can breathe underwater.

The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of the spell. If the character is slain, the character automatically returns to the character's normal form.

If the character uses this spell to create a disguise, the character gets a +10 bonus on the character's Disguise check.
Which is pretty much identical to Minor Change Shape.

So this is Direct RAW that's saying that Polymorph Self is a similar effect to Alternate Form which is a similar effect to Alter Self which is the 3.0 version of Minor Change Shape. It can't get more open and shut than that.


One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. For example, if a wizard is using a shapechange spell to take the shape of an eagle, a polymorph spell could change her into a goldfish. The shapechange spell is not negated, however, and since the polymorph spell has no effect on the recipient’s special abilities, the wizard could use the shapechange effect to take any form the spell allows whenever she desires. If a creature using a shapechange effect becomes petrified by a flesh to stone spell, however, it turns into a mindless, inert statue, and the shapechange effect cannot help it escape
If you cast Polymorph on a Changeling assuming the form of a human to turn it into a bird, the polymorph makes the minor change shape irrelevant. And after being polymorphed, the Changeling can use Minor Change Shape to turn assume a different form to make Polymorph Irrelevant. The fact that their effects make the other irrelevant is proof of their "similarity". They're the same/similar effect.

But how about we approach this in a different way? What does polymorph do? Compared to other polymorph effects like Alternate Form, Alter Self, and Change Shape
1. Lets you assume the form of a creature
2. Gain +10 to disguise
3. Gain mundane movement (so no Su flight), max speed 120ft for flying, 60ft for non-flying
4. Gain Natural Armor
5. Gain Natural Weapons
6. Change your Type Alternate Form and Change Shape don't
7. Gain Str, Dex, and Con score of the new form Alter Self and Change Shape don't
8. Gain all Ex attacks Alter Self doesn't
9. Gain racial skill bonuses Alternate Form and Change Shape don't
10. Gain racial bonus feats (feats HAS to be labeled as a racial bonus feat) Alternate Form and Change Shape don't
11. You lose Ex attacks and qualities of your normal form, but not from your class level Alternate Form and Change Shape lets you keep the special qualities of your natural form

Minor Change Shape does 1 & 2. But it does not do 3, 4, or 5. So it is similar to polymorph, but is it similar enough? What degree of similarity is required?
Does it require you to obtain the assumed form's natural armor?
Does it require you to obtain the assumed form's natural weapons?
Does it require you to obtain the assumed form's mundane movement modes?

So we look at the feat description of Assume Supernatural Ability, and we see that... all it requires is you to assume the form of another creature. Not obtain their natural armor, weapons, movement modes, ex attacks, racial bonus feats, racial skill bonuses or ability scores. Just assume the form of another creature.

So in other words, any effect that lets you assume the form of another creature is similar enough to polymorph.

In other words, the argument has made a full circle. Even under this interpretation, Minor Change Shape works with Assume Supernatural Ability.

But how about we approach this in a different way? Does the rules have an official definition of "similar effect" to polymorph? It does actually.

A number of spells allow or force a creature to change shape, such as alter self, animal shapes, baleful polymorph, polymorph, and shapechange. Spell-like abilities can resemble these spells as well. The spell descriptions delineate how these spells work, but a few have changed significantly since the publication of the Player’s Handbook and are presented here. For more information on the polymorph subschool, see page 122.
Polymorph is an effect that either allows or forces a creature to change shape. Minor Change Shape falls under this especially since in the same section called "Changing Forms" the ability A Thousand Faces resides there.

But how about we approach this in an another different way?

Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions in Chapter 11: Spells).
Disguise Self is grouped together with Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange as "form altering" effects. So even in this approach Minor Change Shape works with Assume Supernatural Ability.

But how about we approach this in an another different way?

Remove “polymorph (self only)” from spell-like abilities.
Add the following entry:
Change Shape (Su): A succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid
Change Shape was specifically created in 3.5 to replace monster's Polymorph Self ability. The above quote is not the only example. Virtually every polymorph self in 3.0 was replaced by Change Shape in the update.

So there are a LOT of things that says Minor Change Shape works with Assume Supernatural Ability. A LOT. And one is even a direct RAW quote saying Minor Change Shape is similar to Polymorph Self. And there is nothing that says Minor Change Shape doesn't work with Assume Supernatural Ability. Literally nothing. Therefore anyone who claims Minor Change Shape is not similar enough to Polymorph for the feat to work is someone who is just declaring themselves right with no rule quotes, is dead set at making this combo not work, and will never admit that they're wrong. And someone who will never admit they're wrong is someone who is not interested in having a discussion. And someone who is not interested in having a discussion is not someone you should be engaging in a Rules Q&A discussion.

Therefore I will not be entertaining anyone who claims the feat fails to work with Minor Change Shape because it's not "similar enough" to polymorph (had this "discussion" too many times). Unless they produce an actual rule that says... Rules Compendium, Player's Handbook, and the Assume Supernatural Feat description is wrong?

I mean it. Instead of dismissing the above evidence and claiming they're right because they dismissed them all, why don't they provide ONE rule quote that says the two are not similar effects? Just one.


Finally, the topic at hand. The illusion spell Disguise Self.

Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks
(see the individual spell descriptions in Chapter 11: Spells).

Prerequisite

WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,

This is Player's Handbook. Not only is this a core book, but it's also the book that introduces the spell Disguise Self to 3.5. Therefore it is the foremost authority on Disguise Self and it says Disguise Self is a form altering effect alongside Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange.

Is this a mistake?

Well, Minor Change Shape and A Thousand Faces are lesser versions of Disguise Self (because they don't alter equipment) and they're form altering. So why wouldn't Disguise Self also be? Because Disguise Self is an Illusion effect and not a "form changing" effect?

But then the Change Shape description...

Change Shape

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature
The way it uses the word appearance and form interchangeably makes it look like the words "form" and "appearance" are synonyms. So if they are then Disguise Self is a form altering effect since it alters your appearance and "appearance" and "form" are interchangeable.

So in other words, there is nothing that contradicts PHB's claim that Disguise Self is a form altering effect, and if Minor Change Shape lets you assume the form of creatures, there's no reason why Disguise Self won't, and since Disguise Self lets you assume the form of creatures, Assume Supernatural Ability works with Disguise Self.

I did come up with a counter claim to this. While Disguise Self lets you alter your form, it does not let you "assume the form" of creatures. That is purely restricted to abilities that actually change your shape. Therefore just because Minor Change Shape lets you assume the form of creatures does not mean Disguise Self lets you assume the form of creatures. But... this sounds dishonest and desperate to me.

I came up with a second counter claim. That disguise self is not a "similar effect" to polymorph (I know I know, I'm a hypocrite) because it's an illusion effect and not a changing form effect. But... PHB has grouped Disguise Self together with Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange as form altering effects so I can't claim they're not "similar". And nothing in Assume Supernatural Ability's feat description restricts it to transmutation effects only.

I don't mind allowing Minor Change Shape + Assume Supernatural Ability because it comes with a race cost but Disguise Self + Assume Supernatural Ability is accessible to anyone who can cast a 1st level wizard spell and I don't like it but at the same time I don't have anything to justify me saying it doesn't work.

Is there a way to justify Disguise Self not working with Assume Supernatural Ability?

edit:
Ok, Rules Compendium repeats PHB.


Form-altering magic3
...
3 Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, and shapechange. See specific spell descriptions.

There goes any chance of PHB being a mistake. Consistency across books.

edit2:
Ok I think I got it. Minor Change Shape makes existing polymorph effects irrelevant because you can only assume the form of one creature at a time, but Disguise Self does not render existing polymorph effects irrelevant, and I think that's enough for me to say Disguise Self does not let you "assume the form" of other creatures.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The fact that it's an illusion? :smallconfused:
Taking a quote about "magic that changes your form" out of context does not negate the fact that Disguise Self doesn't actually change your body.

[Troacctid]

Why would it work with Assume Supernatural Ability? It's not a polymorph effect. It's not even a transmutation effect at all. It literally does not alter your body in any way; it only superimposes a hologram over it. I mean, what's next? Are you going to tell me that screen should be able to give you Su abilities now too, because it can make you appear to be a solar when someone scries on you? Or are you going to cast invisibility on yourself and claim that you've taken the form of an invisible stalker? Maybe you're going to argue that 10 ranks in Disguise provides the same bonus, so that should work too. Get real!

Here's my counter-challenge to you. Prove the opposite. Prove to me that "a polymorph self spell or similar effect" does not simply refer to effects that a. have the polymorph subschool, or b. specifically say "as polymorph" (a very common clause!) in their description. I want concrete citations.

[Crake]

Here's my counter-challenge to you. Prove the opposite. Prove to me that "a polymorph self spell or similar effect" does not simply refer to effects that a. have the polymorph subschool, or b. specifically say "as polymorph" (a very common clause!) in their description. I want concrete citations.

Actually, the feat says a "Polymorph self" effect, so it's even harder, since that a) rules out the subschool, and b) absolutely no spells in 3.5 reference polymorph self, though one could maybe argue that since the 3.0 polymorph spell referenced polymorph self, that should count.

[Doctor Despair]

Actually, the feat says a "Polymorph self" effect, so it's even harder, since that a) rules out the subschool, and b) absolutely no spells in 3.5 reference polymorph self, though one could maybe argue that since the 3.0 polymorph spell referenced polymorph self, that should count.

Let's be fair. Since it's 3.0, it needs an update, and the translation of polymorph self probably includes polymorph or things of that school. However, Disguise Self certainly doesn't qualify. In fact, MCS also doesn't qualify. With that said, MCS definitely does qualify you to SELECT the feat, but not use it.

On the other hand, we can avoid that discussion all together by discussing Metamorphic Transfer which lacks that polymorph self language. Iirc your position is that you'd rather rule that RAW says that Racial Emulation does nothing rather than accept that MCS works with Metamorphic Transfer, but I think we can both agree that disguise self definitely doesn't work with that either even despite the looser language. Disguise self just doesn't involve changing your form at all under any interpretation.

[Crake]

Let's be fair. Since it's 3.0, it needs an update, and the translation of polymorph self probably includes polymorph or things of that school. However, Disguise Self certainly doesn't qualify. In fact, MCS also doesn't qualify. With that said, MCS definitely does qualify you to SELECT the feat, but not use it.

On the other hand, we can avoid that discussion all together by discussing Metamorphic Transfer which lacks that polymorph self language. Iirc your position is that you'd rather rule that RAW says that Racial Emulation does nothing rather than accept that MCS works with Metamorphic Transfer, but I think we can both agree that disguise self definitely doesn't work with that either even despite the looser language. Disguise self just doesn't involve changing your form at all under any interpretation.

Yeah, I don't think anyone at all would rule Disguise Self as working. Just to reiterate, my stance is that MCS doesn't allow you to take the form of specific creatures, but merely alters your existing form within the parameters of Disguise Self, so you can for example look like a zodar, but you're not "transforming into the form of a zodar", thus cannot actually emulate anything since you're not actually transforming into a specific kind of creature. My personal opinion is that whoever wrote racial emulation didn't realise that "taking a form" actually had mechanical consequences in that wording, and should have simply used "take the appearance of" instead.

[Wintermoot]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

Which is sad, because I happen to agree with you. Minor Shape Change calls itself out as acting LIKE an illusion spell (disguise self), but not being an actual illusion spell but a transmutation effect. Therefore, AFAIAC, it qualifies as polymorph like enough for this combo.

But i don't feel that's rules as intended. I think the reason they call it out as being "like disguise self" is intended to mean it is limited to being like disguise self for all purposes. So I don't think its intended to work. Still, I'd let it work as a DM .

[Doctor Despair]

.

So i guess my only hope is finding a rule that says the phrase "assume the form" is restricted to shape changing abilities?
Or something that excludes illusion effects from Assume Supernatural Ability.

Easiest answer is the same one you rejected out of hand for MCS: neither effect is similar to polymorph.

Of course, that leaves Metamorphic Transfer as an option.

Edit:


Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Your form never actually changed. It just looks like it did.


A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

You didn't change your form into another form; you only altered your current form to look like another form.


You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

You choose a form, and you look like that form, but you do not have that form. That you don't gain the abilities or mannerisms lf thr form at all supports that


Form-altering magic3
...
3 Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, and shapechange. See specific spell descriptions

They all ALTER your form, but don't neccessarily change your form or assume another form.

Specific abilities may qualify by other text, of course

[redking]

The changeling's minor shapechange is a physical effect that still obeys the parameters of the disguise self spell.


You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

In terms of assume supernatural ability, you just determine whether disguise self is truly a "similar effect" to a polymorph spell, so in order to do that, I invite you to look at the function of the polymorph spell (and other spells with similar effects) instead of focusing on words drawn from disparate and inappropriate contexts.

One way of knowing that you are dealing with a "similar effect" is to notice that all the spells (in the polymorph subschool) confer the actual abilities of the assumed form, while disguise self does not. This indicates that disguise self is not a similar effect, but a different effect. That's before even taking into account that disguise self is not a transmutation.

I think the context is actually very clear in this situation. Words can't be understood without context.

[Doctor Despair]

I reject it because it has no foundation.
The feat only requires you to assume a new form magically.

That's RAI. The feat requires you to assume the form through polymorph self or a similar effect.



Most logical reading is polymorph is just an example of something that lets you assume a new form magically


That is entirely your opinion.



especially since the other reading excludes wild shape, alternate form, and other form changing abilities exclusive to monsters in a book that is made specifically for monster PCs.


Wild shape is as of alternate form. Alternate form, before the 3.5 rules change, was specifically an "as polymorph, but" effect, so it is clearly a valid effect for "or similar effects," even afterward. MCS and disguise self are not.



Minor Change Shape is similar to polymorph, that part cannot be denied.


I'm denying it right now, for the purposes of how "similar" is used in the feat. In terms of general language, color spray is "like" polymorph, in that they are both magical, but that's no foundation for a conclusion like this.




So it's a matter of degree of similarity. And the feat is saying "assume a new form magically" is similar enough.


That's entirely DM fiat, but there's not a strong enough foundation to say it's against RAW to shoot it down. It's within DM fiat to say that any spell is a "similar effect," but in terms of a RAW discussion, as Troacctid said, people will look for text calling it out as "as polymorph, but."



Minor Change Shape and Disguise Self has been labeled under the same group/category as polymorph in multiple books.


I addressed that in edits. Per your quote, they're grouped as effects that alter your form; not assume new forms.



Where is the foundation that assume supernatural ability only works with the polymorph subschool which didn't exist until the end of the 3.5 life?


I didn't make that claim. The strictest reading is that a spell or effect needs an "as polymorph" line. Looser would be requiring a chain of "as X" lines, like how wildshape is as alternate form, and alternate form is as polymorph. Looser still would be allowing spells from the polymorph school that don't have that line. The loosest definition would be ANY magic effect that changes form.



So you're saying metamorphic transfer works with disguise self? An illusion effect?


Metamorphic Transfer explicitly works with any effect that changes form. MCS is explicitly one. Disguise self alters your form, but doesn't change it.

[Doctor Despair]

I don't see ability to assume a new form magically via a polymorph or similar effect.


I was referring to what the feat requires to use the benefit. I have no dispute that MCS qualifies you to take the feat.



Alternate Form became Change Shape for a lot of monsters. And Minor Change Shape is the same but lesser effect of Change Shape.


It would be DM fiat to allow Change Shape to work for ASA as well. It doesn't and hasn't mentioned polymorph in the ability. Alternate form definitely works with ASA though.



Does the rules say color spray is like polymorph?


Sure, they both are magical effects. They're both spells. They're both on the wizard class list. There's LOTS of ways they are similar effects. However, that's why it is DM fiat how similar something is unless the rules EXPLICITLY say they're similar, as with alternate form.



If we're using the english langauge Minor Change Shape is similar to polymorph. It lets you assume the form of a creature and it gives a +10 to disguise for doing so.


Yes, it's similar in some ways; it's dissimilar in others. You're making a case for why a DM should use their prerogative to say they're similar--not why iron-clad RAW dictates they are similar.



It is in the same category as polymorph under "changing forms" section of rules compendium.


They are in the section for altering your form--not changing it, or assuming new forms. If we're being pedantic, we must ensure the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.



Disguise Self is explicitly a form altering magic effect just like Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange.


Yes -- but not form-changing magic, or magic that lets you assume the form of others.



If you create a Venn Diagram, Minor Change Shape exists squarely inside Polymorph.


Again, you are trying to sell other DMs and players on why your fiat is more valid than others. You are not disproving that it is DM fiat at the end of the day. For all you know, you could be preaching to the choir -- I might even agree with you that your fiat makes more sense than alternatives. I haven't staked a claim there because, for this discussion, it is irrelevant what I believe. RAW is RAW. It is DM fiat whether something is a similar effect unless there is rules text saying it is.



The only way it's not "similar" is if you define these similarities as not similar enough.You. Not the english language or the rules.


You're speaking as though you are disproving some vital part of my argument. You aren't. Yes, if it is DM fiat whether something is a similar effect, it logically follows that it is FM fiat whether something is NOT a similar effect. That doesn't change the fact that, absent rules text saying "this effect is like polymorph, except," it is up to the DM to adjudicate it.



It's DM Fiat to say it is specifically similar to polymorph and that minor change shape is not even though its the same but weaker effect as change shape which replaced polymorph self for a lot of monsters which replaced alternate form for a lot of monsters during the 3.5. update.


Yes, it would also be DM fiat to say that Change Shape qualifies and Minor Change Shape does not. Please be aware that this is not disproving any aspect of what I've already said.



edit: Just point to one thing. One thing. That says Minor Change Shape is not a similar effect to polymorph. I got like 5 things that says they are. There is 0 things saying the opposite.

This isn't a court of law; a preponderance of evidence isn't what is required. If you want to change discussion to be "why SHOULD DMs allow MCS/disguise self to work with ASA," we can have that talk. That's where you'd want a preponderance of evidence. The question you asked is about the RAW.

RAW doesn't instruct a DM to disallow MCS to work with ASA.

RAW doesn't instruct a DM to allow MCS to work with ASA.

RAW doesn't allow a DM or player to use disguise self to activate ASA without homebrew (as no text thus far says it allows a creature to assume a new form -- only alter their current form).

[redking]

1. Change Shape replaced Alternate Form and Polymorph Self during the update to 3.5. And Minor Change Shape is the same but weaker effect of Change Shape.

This is you writing an editorial. Minor Shapechange functions as disguise self. That's what the description says. You are drawing from inappropriate contexts and making false comparisons.


So instead of dismissing all 6 things and then saying "I dismissed all of them so that's why I'm right", why don't you provide 1 rule quote that says you're right? 1 quote that says minor change shape is not similar to polymorph?

Compare the polymorph spell to disguise self directly, instead of torturing the PHB into context free word games. When you compare polymorph to disguise self, they are very different in school, function and conferred abilities. Minor Shapechange is disguise self in function. It's not a similar effect to polymorph, it's different.

[Doctor Despair]

You made your position clear. If the rules are ambiguous, you are saying they are forever ambiguous and no amount of tertiary rules all pointing to the same direction across multiple books can change that because they're not direct.

Alright. Agree to disagree here.

Whether something is RAW or up to DM fiat is a crucial distinction when you're discussing something like this. I hope you appreciate the difference.

For what it's worth, though, if you've read all my posts, I've handed you a reasoning to preclude disguise self from activating ASA if you want MCS to work in your campaign: it alters your current form, but doesn't allow you to assume a new one.

[JNAProductions]

If one effect makes the other effect irrelevant and vice versa, I don't think there's any other conclusion you can make by RAW other than they are the same/similar effect.

Yeah I'm looking through it. It also poses the question: When you change your form via disguise self after polymorphing, do you lose your polymorph benefits?

With Minor Change Shape it is. Because it changes your form to a new form therefore you lose all the benefits of polymorph because you are no longer assuming the form chosen by polymorph.

If disguise self doesn't do that and let you keep your polymorph abilities, then that'd be enough to go on. I believe minor change shape specifically says you undergo a physical change while disguise self specifically says not.

If Polymorph lets you retain the ability to use Minor Change Shape, then you could use it to alter the new form within the bounds of Minor Change Shape. By my reading of Polymorph and Alter Self, specifically this bit:

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).I'd say you could Minor Change Shape in your new form, since it's Supernatural, not really reliant on any specific body part.
So, let's say you turn into a horse. You could, as per Minor Change Shape, grow a bit taller or shorter, change the color of your mane and skin, and other minor things.

Disguise Self, meanwhile, is an illusion. It doesn't affect your statistics at all (except for +10 to Disguise Checks when aided by it) because it's not physically changing anything.

Edit: Also, being dead makes a lot of effects irrelevant. Fast Healing? Irrelevant when dead. The ability to regain spell slots? Dead makes that irrelevant. Does that make death the same as regaining slots or Fast Healing?

[Troacctid]

The problem is that the feat doesn't require you to change your "body". Every body changing ability is referred to as an ability that alters your "form". And the problem is the word "form" has been used interchangeably with "appearance" one too many times to the point we have a core book directly saying unambiguously that Disguise Self is a "form" altering ability.

Nothing in Assume Supernatural Ability restricts you to abilities that change your "body". Only your "form". Now one could conclude that "assume the form" means change your body and "form" used in the PHB quote means change your appearance. But this amounts to "When the book uses the word "form", in this place it's not mechanically relevant but in that place it is mechanically relevant because I say so" and that doesn't fly.
Did you try looking "polymorph" up in the glossary? That sounds like a reasonable place to start. Or possibly the rules of the polymorph subschool? Like, there is a whole set of spells explicitly defined by the rules as "polymorph effects"; I think Occam's Razor is on my side here.


First, you're asking me to prove a negative when you failed to prove a positive. That is wrong. You should be the one trying to prove your positive. And I've provided ample evidence that it is impossible for you to do so.
Literally the title of your thread is challenging people to prove a negative. Well, I say the onus is on you.


Second, even if your false assertion is true (it's not), it won't change anything.
1. Any effect that refers to alter self is also specifically saying "polymorph" because polymorph's description refers to alter self as well. Quite heavily in fact.
Yes, it has the polymorph subschool. It is included.


2.

Alternate Form satisfies your definition of what a "similar effect" to polymorph is.
3.

4. In 3.0 the "change shape" ability did not exist. It was all "Alternate Form".
Sorry, are you playing a 3.0 game, or a 3.5 game? Don't come at me with obsolete rules. These are defunct and meaningless in a 3.5 game.


5. In 3.5 Succubus's "Alternate Form" ability was replaced with "polymorph (humanoid form only, no limit on duration)".

6. In the Errata, Succubus's "Polymorph (self only)" has been replaced with Change Shape.
So what? This is irrelevant.


7. Minor Change Shape is a lesser version of Change Shape. So the two are the same type of effect, Change Shape is just superior.
False. It is a version of disguise self, an illusion effect.


If we are to update the 3.0 feat to 3.5., then everything it could do in 3.0 should be accomplish-able in 3.5. In 3.0 Assume Supernatural Ability worked with Alternate Form under your unproven assertion. Therefore Assume Supernatural Ability works with Alternate Form in 3.5. In 3.5. some instances of Alternate Form were changed to Change Shape so Assume Supernatural Ability works with Change Shape. Minor Change Shape is a weaker version of Change Shape but it's still the same form changing effect that referred to polymorph in its 3.0 ancestor version.
Where in the heck did you get the idea that everything from 3.0 works the same after being updated to 3.5?


Also gonna leave this in

In case anyone is gonna say Alternate Form is not a form changing ability.
This hurts your original case substantially, as disguise self is a very common core spell that is conspicuously absent from this list of examples. It also does nothing to prove your case against my challenge.


And I'm also gonna point out that under your assertion Wild Shape, and other form altering abilities exclusive to monsters other than Alternate Form do not work with Assume Supernatural Ability. Wild Shape at no point ever mentions polymorph.
So what? Your disliking the conclusion doesn't disprove it at all.


Moving on to Disguise Self, Disguise Self is related to Minor Change Shape but that doesn't mean anything by itself. But 100% of the problem I am having with Disguise Self is the PHB quote that says Disguise Self is a form altering effect in the same group as Polymorph, Alter Self, and Shapechange, 3 spells that 100% work with Assume Supernatural Ability.
I am looking for a PHB quote that says "Disguise self is similar to polymorph" (or vice versa) in so many words. Still have not seen one. Since they are of completely different schools and subschools and have radically different effects (as other citations upthread have already shown), it seems self-evident to me that they are not similar.


No. Disguise skill is not magical and any spell that gives a bonus to skills lets you disguise yourself mundanely better. It does not let you alter your form magically.

100% of the issue here is the PHB p.73 quote saying Disguise Self is a magical form altering ability alongside Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange.
You're the one who argued that changing your appearance and changing your form are the same thing. Are you suggesting that the disguise skill cannot change your appearance? If it's not magical enough for you, assume a guidance spell or whatever.

[Darg]

I want to add that in 3.0, Alter Self would not have qualified for Assume Supernatural Ability. Alter Self doesn't change you into the form of another creature:


The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. The character's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and the character's weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected has wings, The character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, the character can breathe underwater.

The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of the spell. If the character is slain, the character automatically returns to the character's normal form.

If the character uses this spell to create a disguise, the character gets a +10 bonus on the character's Disguise check.

No matter how you change yourself, you are still the same form of human or x creature you were before.


Polymorph other changes the subject into another form of creature.

Alter self is just not similar enough to polymorph self.

So, in an update ASA would require a type change to happen to benefit from it's effect. As polymorph no longer has disorientation, the will save in the feat can be tossed out.

[icefractal]

I posted a lengthier version of this on another thread, which I'll try to find, but my main issue is that Disguise Self does not take a creature or a type of creature as an input, it instead allows you to make change to your appearance which could (but don't have to) make you resemble a particular type of creature.

For example, if you're playing in Greyhawk, you can't Polymorph into a Klingon, because they don't exist in the setting. But you could Disguise Self as one, because you're just setting parameters like "forehead wrinkles" and such.

So attempting to treat the appearance you get with Disguise Self as even having a "creature type" runs into problems, because it doesn't necessarily apply.

And "using any effect that modifies your appearance counts as turning into anything which you now appear to be" is even worse. Does Enlarge Person count as turning into a giant? Does painting your skin red and wearing costume hooves and horns count as being in the form of Asmodeus?

Or maybe you don't even need that!
While he can take any form he wishes—an ability he frequently uses to his advantage—Asmodeus is generally depicted in art as a tall, muscular man with red skin, cloven hooves, and black hair and horns
So just use Prestidigitation to turn your shirt red and say "I'm assuming the form of Asmodeus if/when he chooses to look just like me but with a red shirt."

[wefoij123]

I want to add that in 3.0, Alter Self would not have qualified for Assume Supernatural Ability. Alter Self doesn't change you into the form of another creature:



No matter how you change yourself, you are still the same form of human or x creature you were before.



Alter self is just not similar enough to polymorph self.

So, in an update ASA would require a type change to happen to benefit from it's effect. As polymorph no longer has disorientation, the will save in the feat can be tossed out.

In your very own quote it says "assumed form". Come on man.

But this whole thing is irrelevant. Troacctid's tactic is ingenious, making me ditch everything I've established just to cater to his "challenge". Screw that. Why should I do all the work to prove his completely unproven claim is false?

If someone wants to engage in a discussion with me they need to provide a rule quote that says or suggests that:
1. effects that make each other irrelevant are not the same/similar effect
2. effects under the section changing forms in Rules Compendium are not the same/similar effect
3. effects that are form-altering magic are not the similar effect
4. Assume Supernatural Ability requires something more than just "assume a new form magically" from polymorph.
5. Assume Supernatural Ability is not usable by someone who meets the prerequisite to obtain the feat.
6. Assume Supernatural Ability updated to 3.5 works exclusively only with spells because only spells can have a subschool, not monster abilities like alternate form.

No more me catering to other people who don't provide any rule quote themselves. You don't provide a rule quote refuting all the rule quotes I provided and I don't engage.

[JNAProductions]

In your very own quote it says "assumed form". Come on man.

But this whole thing is irrelevant. Troacctid's tactic is ingenious, making me ditch everything I've established just to cater to his "challenge". Screw that. Why should I do all the work to prove his completely unproven claim is false?

If someone wants to engage in a discussion with me they need to provide a rule quote that says or suggests that:
1. effects that make each other irrelevant are not the same/similar effect
2. effects under the section changing forms in Rules Compendium are not the same/similar effect
3. effects that are form-altering magic are not the similar effect
4. Assume Supernatural Ability requires something more than just "assume a new form magically" from polymorph.
5. Assume Supernatural Ability is not usable by someone who meets the prerequisite to obtain the feat.
6. Assume Supernatural Ability updated to 3.5 works exclusively only with spells because only spells can have a subschool, not monster abilities like alternate form.

No more me catering to other people who don't provide any rule quote themselves. You don't provide a rule quote refuting all the rule quotes I provided and I don't engage.

Troacctid's a lady, not a man.

1) Death makes Fast Healing irrelevant. Therefore, by that logic, Death=Fast Healing.
2) The part you quoted makes no mention of Disguise Self. So not sure what you think that proves.

[Darg]

In your very own quote it says "assumed form". Come on man.

ASA also says the effect has to be similar to polymorph self. the 3.5 version of polymorph self is polymorph. Polymorph does a lot more than alter self does which does a hell of a lot more than minor change shape. Things similar to the effect of polymorph are based on Alternate form and polymorph ability and spell. If you want to say that alter self and change shape are enough to gain the ability, good on you.

The biggest reason one should differentiate between them is the disorientation will save in the feat. That disorientation only happens with polymorph other and self and effects similar to them. All polymorph effects didn't give you supernatural abilities, even shapechange. ASA was created to give you access to it when you did polymorph. Wild Shape was based on polymorph self. In 3.0, there is a very clear line between polymorph and alter self.

[redking]

Lets put everything together.
Polymorph and Minor Change Shape renders each other irrelevant because you can only assume the form of one creature at a time. The fact that they make each other irrelevant is as damning as the rules get that they're the same/similar effect. Your response? No response. You ignored it.

Rules compendium defines what a polymorph effect is.

Polymorph is an effect that either allows or forces a creature to change shape. Minor Change Shape falls under this especially since in the same section called "Changing Forms" the ability A Thousand Faces resides there.
Your response? No response. You ignored it.

I looked up the Rules Compendium to see if you were presenting A Thousand Faces accurately, and not taking it out of context. In fact, A Thousand Faces is a 13th druid ability that grants the druid the ability to disguise self. It's not connected to the paragraph about changing forms at all. Right below that ability is a revision of wild shape, also not connected. As for changing forms itself -


A number of spells allow or force a creature to change shape, such as alter self, animal shapes, baleful polymorph, polymorph, and shapechange. Spell-like abilities can resemble these spells as well. The spell descriptions delineate how these spells work, but a few have changed significantly since the publication of the Player’s Handbook and are presented here. For more information on the polymorph subschool, see page 122.


All the spells listed are transmutation spells. You are also directed at the polymorph subschool.

You are pulling stuff out at random to prove a thesis like a conspiracy theorists try to prove that aliens shot JFK. Literally none of the stuff you claim means this or that really means that. Like A Thousand Faces, you've removed the information from its appropriate context and shoehorned it into your thesis.

MCS = disguise self. Your question should be if disguise self can allow the Assume Supernatural Ability. I'd say no, it's against both the letter and the spirit of the rules, but as a DM you can houserule it to work. If you hope to convince people here, that's another issue altogether.

[wefoij123]

ASA also says the effect has to be similar to polymorph self. the 3.5 version of polymorph self is polymorph. Polymorph does a lot more than alter self does which does a hell of a lot more than minor change shape. Things similar to the effect of polymorph are based on Alternate form and polymorph ability and spell. If you want to say that alter self and change shape are enough to gain the ability, good on you.

The biggest reason one should differentiate between them is the disorientation will save in the feat. That disorientation only happens with polymorph other and self and effects similar to them. All polymorph effects didn't give you supernatural abilities, even shapechange. ASA was created to give you access to it when you did polymorph. Wild Shape was based on polymorph self. In 3.0, there is a very clear line between polymorph and alter self.


Alternate Form: Shauganttha can assume the form of a Tiny to Large viper (see the Snake entry in the Monster Manual). This ability is similar to a shapechange spell cast by a 19thlevel sorcerer but allows only viper forms. He uses the viper’s poison since he has no poison attack of his own.


Alternate Form (Su): At 2nd level a barghest can assume the form of a goblin or an unusually large wolf as a standard action. This is similar to using the polymorph self spell but allows only these two forms.


Alternate Form (Su): A rakshasa can assume any humanoid form, or revert to its own form, as a standard action. This ability is similar to the alter self spell cast by an 18th-level sorcerer. A rakshasa can use this ability the indicated number of times per day at the indicated duration. Eventually the rakshasa can remain in an alternate form indefinitely

By your own admission Alternate Form is an effect similar to polymorph.
I have 3 quotes saying Alternate Form is similar to Shapechange, Polymorph Self, and Alter Self
3.0 Alter self is identical to Minor Change Shape.

Therefore we are all in agreement that Minor Change Shape is a similar effect to polymorph?

I'm gonna add this to the 1st post. This is the same book as Assume Supernatural Ability directly saying Alternate Form is a similar effect to both Polymorph Self and Alter Self. This is direct RAW. Lets see how other people try to refute this.

Thanks for providing rule quotes. It's always the ones that provide rule quotes that advance the discussion.

edit: Some of you might have noticed that I deleted my previous posts. Yeah I don't want people responding to it when i found RAW this strong. So direct all your attention here. All the arguments in my previous post are still on the 1st post, just inside the spoiler.

[AvatarVecna]

"The DM could say that it works, and that's the same thing as RAW."

A DM could say wish is a cantrip if they want to. That doesn't make it the default rule for the system.

[Troacctid]

The entire reason I made this thread is because Player's Handbook and Rules Compendium labeled Disguise Self as a "Form-Altering Magic" alongside Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange, which is dangerously close to "ability to assume a new form magically", and it doesn't help that Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange work with Assume Supernatural Ability.

And you're saying that I'm saying that Guidance of the Avatar, a spell that is not labeled a "form-altering magic", works with assume supernatural ability because...? I know why, you're constructing a strawman.

Onus is on me? We have rule text unambiguously saying Minor Change Shape lets you assume the form of creatures. And Assume Supernatural Ability unambiguously saying this feat works when you assume the form of other creatures. And you're the one saying it doesn't work. So the burden of proof is on me?
Just to recap, here is the relevant text of the feat.

You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
It doesn't say "when you assume the form of another creature," it says "when you assume the form of another creature through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect." So regardless of whether or not minor change shape allows you to assume the form of other creatures—it doesn't, it only changes the appearance of your own form, but set that aside for now—that is only a necessary criterion, not a sufficient one. It must also be similar to polymorph. The reason I've been able to ignore most of your arguments is because you've only really addressed that first condition. But proving that you can assume another form doesn't mean anything unless you can also prove that your method of doing so is similar to polymorph.

Now, as it happens, there's an entire category in the game specifically for those effects that are similar to polymorph! It's called the Polymorph subschool, and the rules for it can be found here (https://web.archive.org/web/20200116105241/http://archive.wizards.com:80/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5). Given that this subschool exists, what reason, by RAW, is there to assume that "similar to polymorph" refers to anything else besides the school of spell effects that is named after polymorph?


Lets put everything together.
Polymorph and Minor Change Shape renders each other irrelevant because you can only assume the form of one creature at a time. The fact that they make each other irrelevant is as damning as the rules get that they're the same/similar effect. Your response? No response. You ignored it.
That's just not true. Disguise self does not make polymorph irrelevant. If you polymorph into a troll, then disguise self to make yourself look like an ogre, you still have all the troll stats that polymorph gave you.


Rules compendium defines what a polymorph effect is.

Polymorph is an effect that either allows or forces a creature to change shape. Minor Change Shape falls under this especially since in the same section called "Changing Forms" the ability A Thousand Faces resides there.
Your response? No response. You ignored it.
That's also not correct. You didn't follow through to the page number referenced in your own quote?

Any spell based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, a spell’s existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.
The primary criterion for retroactive inclusion in the polymorph subschool is "Are you based on polymorph or alter self?" For disguise self and its derivatives, including minor change shape, the answer is "no." Also, it's a subschool of transmutation, which means that only transmutation spells can qualify—not illusions.


Disguise Self is labeled as a "form-altering magic" effect alongside Polymorph, Alter Self, and Shapechange. Therefore all 4 are similar effects.
Your response? No response. You ignored it.
You haven't provided any evidence for why that specifically should be the operative criterion, and not anything else that polymorph might have in common with anything else.


Where does it say "similar effect" is something other than one that lets you magically assume the form of other creatures? Nowhere. You're just claiming it is with no support anywhere.
Where does it say two effects that make each other irrelevant when on the same creature is not a "similar effect"? Nowhere. You're just claiming it is with no support anywhere.
Where does it say the feat Assume Supernatural Ability requires anything other than assuming a new form magically? Nowhere. You're just claiming it is with no support anywhere.
Where does it say Assume Supernatural Ability updated to 3.5 must be exclusively used with spells only that have the polymorph subschool? Nowhere. You're just claiming it is with no support anywhere.
Where does it say "similar effect" can include something other than the polymorph subschool? Nowhere. You're just claiming it is with no support anywhere.
Where does it say that changing your appearance with an illusion is the same as changing your form with a transmutation? Nowhere. You're just claiming it is with no support anywhere. (Several places also state pretty clearly that illusion effects are not true transformations.)
Where does it say the feat Assume Supernatural Ability requires anything other than assuming a new form magically? In the benefit section of the feat, which has a distinct, separate condition in it that is slightly different from the one in the prerequisite section.


I still can't believe how difficult it is to get people to accept that everything under the entire section called "Changing Forms" are a "similar effect", and that effects that render each other irrelevant because they do the same thing are "similar effects". It's ridiculous. But then again, these are the same people providing 0 rule citations of their own and just declaring themselves right after dismissing everything I provided with the most inane reasons and demanding more.
Most of your citations aren't actually relevant to my argument, for the reasons I already stated. I don't think I especially need any citations other than SS 30. But just for kicks, here's a few.

CM 11 and CM 13 both show that illusory transformations are fake and don't actually change your physical form, while transmutations are actual real physical changes to your body. RC 121 reinforces this. RC 120 provides a clearly defined way for spells to be considered similar in the rules, including using the word "similar," which your sources don't. PH2 221 is an example of polymorph being listed alongside several other spells even though they are not similar, showing that your list doesn't matter. RC 122–123 defines a set of effects that are similar to polymorph. You could also have a look at UB 6, PH 263, PH 222, and MM 198.

And you're taking that section out of context. Right at the beginning of RC 24 it says "Some special abilities allow a creature to change its form or appearance." Implying that an effect could do one or the other without doing both—as disguise self does.

[Wintermoot]

I just want to say that I came into this thread on wefoij123's side of the argument, that minor shape change should work with assume supernatural ability.

But after reading his arguments for and everyone else's arguments against, I have changed my mind. It's pretty obvious now that it shouldn't.

So consider me to be the first and only person on this forum to actually have their mind changed on an argument. So we got THAT out of this at least.

[wefoij123]

Abilities that change your form are not the same/similar effect, because you guys say so. Not one person here provided a quote that supports their claim.
I realize now that most of the "evidence" I provided is just me showing how many, many instances in the books do treat them as the same/similar effect.

You people are saying ASA only works with spells that have the polymorph subschool. Because you say so. Not one person here provided a quote that supports their claim.

You people are saying ASA requires something more from polymorph other than the ability to assume a new form magically. Not one person here provided a quote that supports their claim.

I have digged up several rule quotes that directly says Alternate Form is a similar effect to both polymorph self and 3.0 alter self.
Which for a normal person would be enough for them to concede that ASA works with Alternate Form, and therefore their claim that ASA only works with spells with the polymorph subschool was wrong.
And then they would say ASA works with 3.0 Alter Self Because of very simple logic:
If polymorph self is similar to alternate form
and alternate form is similar to 3.0 alter self
then polymorph self is similar to 3.0 alter self.
And it shouldn't even need to go this far. The fact that all 3 are form changing effects that override each other should've been enough. This whole thing is just one giant roundabout way of "proving" that all form changing effects are "similar effects".

But these quote doesn't mean anything, because you guys say so. Not one person here provided a quote that says Alternate Form is not similar to polymorph and does not work with ASA. Just, they're not similar even though I got a rule quote saying they're similar because you say so.

Then again, a normal person wouldn't say effects that change your form are not similar effects. Or that the feat requires anything other than the ability to assume a new form magically.


No one provides any rule quotes that says effects that let you change forms are not similar effects. They just declare themselves right and dismiss every instance in the books I dig up where they are treated as the same/similar effect.

No one provides any rule quotes that says ASA requires more than just the ability to assume a new form magically from polymorph.

No one provides any rule quotes that says ASA only works with the polymorph subschool.
No one provides any rule quotes that says Alternate Form doesn't work with ASA.
And my direct rule quote that directly says ASA is similar to polymorph self is dismissed. Because you guys say so.

I know why. Because there is no rule quote that says effects that change your forms are not similar. Because there is no rule quote that says ASA does not work with Alternate Form. There is a grand total of 0 rule quotes that support any of your claims. And so the only way for your interpretation to survive is to just dismiss all my rule quotes in anyway you can without providing counter quotes because they don't exist. That way you can say your interpretation is valid under RAW even though it's not.


Let's see, on one hand, making this thread did get me what I wanted. I got reasons why disguise self doesn't work with ASA.

On the other hand, I have no respect for opinions of people who just declare themselves right, do 0 research, provide 0 rule quotes, just ignore/dismiss all my rule quotes without any counter quotes, and sit back and say I should do all the work and demand that I do even more work even though I managed to provide direct and explicit RAW quotes. And pretty much everyone here is like that. Everyone. 0 rule quotes. Just, I'm right because I say so.

On the other other hand, talking to specific people on this forum does result in progress. Darg for example, I'm pretty sure he's not going to admit he's wrong and will come up with a new reason why something explicitly similar to Alternate Form won't work with ASA, but despite that, conversing with him resulted in me finding stronger RAW because he provides rule quotes. He picks up a book, reads through it, locates a relevant and pertinent quote, posts it, and uses that as the basis of his reasoning and why he thinks his quote has more clout than mine.

So on one hand, dealing with people who never pick up a book and post their own quotes did result in my question being answered, on the other hand, it's painful for me to converse with such people.

Maybe a new approach can get me what I want without the pain. Something like when I post a new rules Q&A thread, I wait for specific people to respond and if they don't I just call it quits.

Whatever, I'll figure it out. There's gotta be a way to differentiate people who disagree with me with good reason/foundation and people who disagree with me just because they say so. The former results in a meaningful discussion where I learn things I didn't know before (like 3.0 Alter self being very different), and the latter is just me banging my head against the wall trying to produce every single pertinent rule quote in the entire game hoping that this person will finally accept one, which will never happen, because this person will never admit they're wrong.

[LecternOfJasper]

Oooh! Fun! My turn!



By your own admission Alternate Form is an effect similar to polymorph.
I have 3 quotes saying Alternate Form is similar to Shapechange, Polymorph Self, and Alter Self
3.0 Alter self is identical to Minor Change Shape.

Therefore we are all in agreement that Minor Change Shape is a similar effect to polymorph?

I'm gonna add this to the 1st post. This is the same book as Assume Supernatural Ability directly saying Alternate Form is a similar effect to both Polymorph Self and Alter Self. This is direct RAW. Lets see how other people try to refute this.


See, I recognize that all of these are called Alternate Form, but I'm not sure if it flows logically to say these separate abilities actually mean the spells they imitate are similar. Alternate Form, if talked about specifically, appears to give supernatural abilities similar to a particular spell of a certain level. It is clear from reading these abilities that they are intended to do different things, in that they emulate different spells with different effects.

So, while some instances of Alternate Form clearly are similar to Polymorph Self, and some instances of Alternate Form clearly are similar to Alter Self, it does not seem right to me to conclude from this point that Polymorph Self is necessarily similar to Alter Self.

Each of those Alternate Form abilities seem to indicate that they operate similarly to a specific spell, and I don't see any reason for each instance of Alternate Form to be considered as similar to one another. :smallbiggrin:



And then they would say ASA works with 3.0 Alter Self Because of very simple logic:
If polymorph self is similar to alternate form
and alternate form is similar to 3.0 alter self
then polymorph self is similar to 3.0 alter self.
And it shouldn't even need to go this far. The fact that all 3 are form changing effects that override each other should've been enough.

But these quote doesn't mean anything, because you guys say so. Not one person here provided a quote that says Alternate Form is not similar to polymorph and does not work with ASA. Just, they're not similar even though I got a rule quote saying they're similar because you say so.

Then again, a normal person wouldn't say effects that change your form are not similar effects. Or that the feat requires anything other than the ability to assume a new form magically.


RAW is fun like that. I thought the whole point of RAW was to take the words as they are written, and apply them regardless of what normal people would think! The logic might be reasonable, but if it is not actually said, it's unlikely to be called RAW.



Let's see, on one hand, making this thread did get me what I wanted. I got reasons why disguise self doesn't work with ASA.

On the other hand, I have no respect for opinions of people who just declare themselves right, do 0 research, provide 0 rule quotes, just ignore/dismiss all my rule quotes without any counter quotes, and sit back and say I should do all the work and demand that I do even more work even though I managed to provide direct and explicit RAW quotes. And pretty much everyone here is like that. Everyone. 0 rule quotes. Just, I'm right because I say so.

On the other other hand, talking to specific people on this forum does result in progress. Darg for example, I'm pretty sure he's not going to admit he's wrong and will come up with a new reason why something explicitly similar to Alternate Form won't work with ASA, but despite that, conversing with him resulted in me finding stronger RAW because he provides rule quotes. He picks up a book, reads through it, locates a relevant and pertinent quote, posts it, and uses that as the basis of his reasoning and why he thinks his quote has more clout than mine.

So on one hand, dealing with people who never pick up a book and post their own quotes did result in my question being answered, on the other hand, it's painful for me to converse with such people.

Maybe a new approach can get me what I want without the pain. Something like when I post a new rules Q&A thread, I wait for specific people to respond and if they don't I just call it quits.

Whatever, I'll figure it out. There's gotta be a way to differentiate people who disagree with me with good reason/foundation and people who disagree with me just because they say so. The former results in a meaningful discussion where I learn things I didn't know before (like 3.0 Alter self being very different), and the latter is just me banging my head against the wall trying to produce every single pertinent rule quote in the entire game hoping that this person will finally accept one, which will never happen, because this person will never admit they're wrong.

I feel like a disproportionate amount of posts I make say something similar to this, but welcome to the playground! We have fun here!

[Troacctid]

Abilities that change your form are not the same/similar effect, because you guys say so. Not one person here provided a quote that supports their claim.
Several have been offered. There were over a dozen citations in my last post.


You people are saying ASA only works with spells that have the polymorph subschool. Because you say so. Not one person here provided a quote that supports their claim.
I provided several. You've offered nothing substantial refuting this claim.


You people are saying ASA requires something more from polymorph other than the ability to assume a new form magically. Not one person here provided a quote that supports their claim.
Literally the text of the feat. It's been brought up multiple times now.


I have digged up several rule quotes that directly says Alternate Form is a similar effect to both polymorph self and 3.0 alter self.
Which for a normal person would be enough for them to concede that ASA works with Alternate Form, and therefore their claim that ASA only works with spells with the polymorph subschool was wrong.
And then they would say ASA works with 3.0 Alter Self Because of very simple logic:
If polymorph self is similar to alternate form
and alternate form is similar to 3.0 alter self
then polymorph self is similar to 3.0 alter self.
And it shouldn't even need to go this far. The fact that all 3 are form changing effects that override each other should've been enough. This whole thing is just one giant roundabout way of "proving" that all form changing effects are "similar effects".
Dude, your quotes are not even correct. They received errata and are now different. Observe: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm. Notice the absence of any reference to polymorph.

I already explained this before and you dismissed it out of hand. Does it not count unless it's in a quote box? Maybe I should put it in a spoon and make airplane noises too.


But these quote doesn't mean anything, because you guys say so. Not one person here provided a quote that says Alternate Form is not similar to polymorph and does not work with ASA. Just, they're not similar even though I got a rule quote saying they're similar because you say so.
Again, I already posted multiple citations to this effect.


No one provides any rule quotes that says effects that let you change forms are not similar effects. They just declare themselves right and dismiss every instance in the books I dig up where they are treated as the same/similar effect.

No one provides any rule quotes that says ASA requires more than just the ability to assume a new form magically from polymorph.

No one provides any rule quotes that says ASA only works with the polymorph subschool.
No one provides any rule quotes that says Alternate Form doesn't work with ASA.
And my direct rule quote that directly says ASA is similar to polymorph self is dismissed. Because you guys say so.
Clearly I must be rubber and you must be glue because I have no other explanation for what is going on in this section.


I know why. Because there is no rule quote that says effects that change your forms are not similar. Because there is no rule quote that says ASA does not work with Alternate Form.
I haven't seen any rules quotes that say they are similar either.


There is a grand total of 0 rule quotes that support any of your claims. And so the only way for your interpretation to survive is to just dismiss all my rule quotes in anyway you can without providing counter quotes because they don't exist. That way you can say your interpretation is valid under RAW even though it's not.
I refer you again to the citations in my previous post.


On the other hand, I have no respect for opinions of people who just declare themselves right, do 0 research, provide 0 rule quotes, just ignore/dismiss all my rule quotes without any counter quotes, and sit back and say I should do all the work and demand that I do even more work even though I managed to provide direct and explicit RAW quotes. And pretty much everyone here is like that. Everyone. 0 rule quotes. Just, I'm right because I say so.
You started this thread by demanding others do research to prove you wrong. Then you proceeded to ignore/dismiss all the counterarguments without providing any rules quotes contradicting them. I want to see your citations disproving RC 120. Happy to wait.


On the other other hand, talking to specific people on this forum does result in progress. Darg for example, I'm pretty sure he's not going to admit he's wrong and will come up with a new reason why something explicitly similar to Alternate Form won't work with ASA, but despite that, conversing with him resulted in me finding stronger RAW because he provides rule quotes. He picks up a book, reads through it, locates a relevant and pertinent quote, posts it, and uses that as the basis of his reasoning and why he thinks his quote has more clout than mine.
Lots of people did this, but apparently it only counts when you agree with them, I guess?

[Paragon]

I love myself a good read before bed about how can we interpret what should be so obvious in every possible manner :D

First off, gotta agree with Troacctid here, you telling everyone what they have to do to convince you while barring anyway of this happening is just pointless and the drama queen act, suffering tragedy in the hole you dug yourself is kinda hilarious if I'm honest.

Second, out of context, rule quoting is often misleading.
For instance, you keep making deductive reasoning with SS quotes when context in the real world is "Savage Species came out during the transition phase in between 3.0 and 3.5" (don't look it up, it's not a real quote). Since MCS itself is 3.5 maybe we should realize simple inferences and savage quoting won't cut it. Exit your quotes about similarity. Exit "Therefore we are all in agreement that Minor Change Shape is a similar effect to polymorph"

Now, to humor you I took up that RC book and looked up the whole Changing forms section p24.
The very first sentence is
Some special abilities allow a creature to change its form or appearance. Emphasis mine. This effectively create mutually exclusive cases both of which are subparts of Changing forms and this is important ; it means that anytime the words changing forms are written, it can actually be one (actually change its form) or the other (change its appearance). Is that stupid-WotC-RAW-style enough for you ?
To recap, when you read "change form" you can't conclude as to what it means. The only way you can actually differentiate is with the presence or absence of "appearance" being mentioned.

Let's look at MCS now shall we
Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action. Nowhere is there a mention of assuming anyone's form

"It's hidden in the Disguise Self spell !" would you counter ? let's find out
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.
As expected, it's not.

As for the different degrees of similarity, I'm with you on this one and I like the list you made but you conclude by saying that "since you can assume the form of" (which is written nowhere in both MCS or the Disguise Self spell quote posted just before) then it's similar enough. Well it could be, if it was written anywhere, that you could, it's just not.

Racial Emulation on the other hand, is just non-functional by RAW since it tells you you can do [insert whatever] when you use MCS to assume the form of a humanoid creature which isn't something you can do with MCS by stupid-RAW-reading.

[wefoij123]

My last post was supposed to be the last post I post before I abandon this thread, but Occam's Razor has been pissing me off all day so I'm gonna make one more post. Occam's Razor.
I'll say it again. Occam's Razor. Someone here claimed Occam's Razor is on their side.

Occam's Razor means: "It is generally understood in the sense that with competing theories or explanations, the simpler one, for example a model with fewer parameters, is to be preferred"

In other words, the simpler explanation is the right one.

You know what the simplest explanation is? If you meet the prerequisite of the feat, you can use the feat.
Really simple right?
The simplest explanation is that everything you need to use the feat is listed under the prerequisite section. So if you have all of those, you can use the feat.

The fluff of the feat says it lets you use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.
The prerequisite says ability to assume a new form magically.
So when the feat description says it lets you use the supernatural ability of a magically assumed form via polymorph self or a similar effect, the simplest explanation is polymorph self is something that lets you magically assume a new form and "similar effect" is other effects that let you magically assume a new form. Because the only requirement the feat asks, and the only thing the feat does, is let you use supernatural abilities of a magically assumed form.

You know what is not simple?
Saying the feat requires additional requirements other than those listed in the prerequisite.
Saying that the "similar effect" is an undefined effect that is related to polymorph self in some way.
Saying that "similar effect" is not only something that does the same things polymorph does, but must also give most of the same bonuses that polymorph self determined by you.

So one explanation is fully inclusive, no ambiguity, and clear cut.
The other explanation is seriously convoluted.

And those people are claiming the other explanation is "Occam's Razor."


How about a more indepth analysis.

I have looked at every single feat in Savage Species. Every. Single. Feat. And you know what I found? Not a single feat there requires anything other than what is listed in its prerequisite. Not a single one.

Ability Focus:Special Attack. Nope
Area Attack: Str 19, Huge Attack, Power Attack. Nope.
Blow hard: Con 20, Huge Size, Power Attack. Nope.
Bonus Breath: Breath Weapon with limited uses per day, Extend Spell or Extend Spell-Like Ability. Nope.
Controlled Respiration: Time limit on how long you can remain out of water, Endurance. Nope.
Crush: Huge Size. Nope.
Cumbrous Dodge: Dodge, Tumble 4 ranks. Nope.
Cumbrous Fortitude: Great Fortitude. Nope.
Cumbrous Reflexes: Lightning Reflexes. Nope.
Cumbrous Will: Iron Will. Nope.
Deadly Poison: Con 19, poison special attack that deals ability damage as secondary damage, Virulent Poison. Nope.
Deep Denizen: Underground as sole terrain type. Nope.
Desert Dweller: Desert terrain type. Nope.
Detach: Con 19, regeneration. Nope.
Dust Cloud: Dex 19, Int 19, Huge size, Combat Reflexes, wings or tail. Nope.
Empower Spell-Like Ability: Spell-like ability caster level 4th. Nope.
Extended Reach: Small or larger size, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, feeler, or pseudopod. Nope.
Extra item Space: Multiple limbs or heads. Nope.
Final Strike: Acid, air, cold, earth, electricity, fire, or water subtype. Nope.
Fling Enemy: Prerequisites: Str 23, Huge size, improved grab. Nope.
Gape of the Serpent: Swallow whole. Nope.
Grass Trekker: Plains terrain type. Nope.
Great Flyby Attack: Fly speed, Flyby Attack. Nope.
Greater Multigrab: Str 19, Dex 15, improved grab, Multigrab. Nope.
Greater Multiweapon Focus: Dex 19, three arms, base attack bonus +15, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Multiweapon Fighting, Multidexterity. Nope.
Greater Mighty Roar: Animal or magical beast; Large size, Mighty Roar. Nope.
Improved Flyby Attack: Fly speed, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Mobility. Nope.
Improved Multiattack: Three natural weapons, Multiattack. Nope.
Improved Mutliweapon Fighting: Dex 15, three arms, base attack bonus +9, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting.
Improved Scent: Scent ability. Nope.
Improved Turn Resistance: Undead. Nope.
Improved Web: Ability to create webs as an extraordinary ability at least twice per day. Nope.
Inured to Energy: Resistance to the energy type you specify when taking the feat. Nope.
Involuntary Rage: Con 20, Toughness. Nope.
Irresistable Gaze: Gaze attack. Nope.
Mighty Leaping: Str 21, Dodge, Mobility, Jump 9 ranks or a racial bonus on Jump checks. Nope.
Mighty Roar: Animal or magical beast; Large size. Nope.
Multigrab: Str 17, improved grab. Nope.
Multitasking: Dex 15, Int 15, four or more arms, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Multiattack, Multiweapon Fighting. Nope.
Multivoice: Dex 15, Int 15, two or more heads, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Multiattack, Quicken Spell, Two-Weapon Fighting. Nope.
Narrowed Gaze: Int 13, gaze attack. Nope.
Pain Mastery: Con 20, Toughness. Nope.
Peak Hopper: Hill or mountain terrain type. Nope.
Pervasize Gaze: Int 13, gaze special attack. Nope.
Piercing Gaze: Cha 15, Int 13, gaze special attack, Irresistible Gaze. Nope.
Poison Immunity: Poison special attack as an extraordinary ability, Poison Resistance. Nope.
Poison Resistance: Poison special attack as an extraordinary ability. Nope.
Power Dive: Str 15, fly speed (average maneuverability). Nope.
Prehensile Tail: Str 13, tail attack, Two-Weapon Fighting. Nope.
Quick Change: Dex 15, alternate form special quality. Nope.
Quicken Spell-like Ability: Spell-like ability caster level 8th. Nope.
Rapid Breath: Breath weapon, Quicken Spell or Quicken Spell-Like Ability. Nope.
Rending Constricution: Str 19, Dex 15, constrict ability, improved grab, Greater Multigrab, Multigrab, two constricting limbs. Nope.
Reverberation: Sonic special attack. Nope.
Roll with it: Con 20, Toughness. Nope.
Scramble: Dex 15, Small size or smaller, improved evasion. Nope.
Stamp: Huge size, feet, trample special attack. Nope.
Supernatural transformation: Innate spell-like ability. Nope.
Surrogate Spellcasting: Wis 13, nonhumanoid or nonhumanlike form. Nope.
Swamp Stalker: Marsh terrain. Nope.
Thick-Skinned: Damage reduction. Nope.
Thunderclap: Str 30, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack.
Treefriend: Forest terrain. Nope.
Uncanny Scent: Scent ability, Improved Scent. Nope.
Vicious Wound: Expertise, wounding special attack. Nope.
Virulent Poison: Poison attack as an extraordinary ability. Nope.
Wingstorm: Str 13, fly speed 20 ft., Large size, Hover, Power Attack. Nope.
Winter's Child: Cold terrain. Nope.

Every single feat here does not require anything more than what is listed in its prerequisite to use.
A simple interpretation exists for Assume Supernatural Ability that conforms with this.
A simple interpretation exists for Assume Supernatural Ability that works 100% with abilities that let you assume the form of a creature with no additional bonuses, and no explicit connection to polymorph self.
Therefore Occam's Razor says this is the correct explanation. Simple. Conforms with everything. No additional rules. No exceptions. Completely inclusive. Simple.

--

But what do the people of this forum say?
They say the more complicated explanation that requires ASA to be the exception to the norm and the more complicated explanation that involves undefined terminology is the correct interpretation.
And they claim Occam's Razor.
They're saying dismissing the simpler explanation is Occam's Razor.
They say that a rare feat that does require additional things other than what is listed in its prerequisite that exists outside Savage Species is "proof" of why the simpler explanation must be dismissed and that doing this is Occam's Razor.
They're saying interpreting ASA in a way that makes it the exception to the norm despite an interpretation that doesn't existing is Occam's Razor.

Just...



And will me pointing all this out change anyone's opinion?
Hell no. I can already predict their counter arguments.

1. They will come up with a reason to dismiss everything in this post and claim their interpretation is consistent with "Occam's Razor". And provide no rule quotes of their own.
or
2. They will say Occam's Razor is irrelevant. That the feat is clearly saying "similar effect" is something specifically similar to polymorph self instead of an effect that alters your form with absolutely no rule basis and that specific trumps general therefore they are right.
or
3. They will produce a feat that is exception to the norm and requires additional things other than those listed in its prerequisite as proof that I am wrong and why they're right.
or
4. They'll say the intent is clear that it doesn't work with Minor Change Shape because its similar to Disguise Self and not Polymorph Self. Which I believe is no longer true. In the same book that introduced the feat:Savage Species, we have a direct rule quote saying Alternate Form is similar to 3.0 Alter Self (which is 3.5's Minor Change Shape), and 3.0 Alter Self specifically says it lets you assume the form of creatures so there is enough to claim that it is intentional that Minor Change Shape works with Assume Supernatural Ability.
or
5. They'll say the creation of the polymorph subschool defines what a "similar effect" to polymorph self is and therefore in the update, no matter what this feat worked with in 3.0, it now only works with spells and only spells with the polymorph subschool, because I say so. No rule quotes.
or
6. How about an extreme nitpick? Technically, if you are incapable of assuming a form with a supernatural ability you selected, you can't use it, therefore technically you do require more things than what is listed in the prerequisite to use this feat. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here used this argument with 100% seriousness.

or whatever number of ways. On top of dismissing everything I already said.

You can tell for every single poster here that the concept of "similar effect" referring to an effect that lets you change form is completely out of the realm of possibility for them and they will enter this "discussion" and act like "similar effect" referring to what they call a "polymorph effect" (defined by them) is established irrefutable fact, and will never I mean ever budge from this position despite having 0 rule quotes supporting this position.

"Occam's Razor is on my side" my ***.

[Troacctid]

I, in fact, did post rules quotes supporting the position that you're AGAIN saying no one has posted any rules quotes supporting. What's the point if you're not going to even read them?

The claim that the prerequisites to a feat will always allow you to use the feat without any further requirements is absolutely ludicrous. I don't think you've thought it through at all. I count at least a solid 28ish feats in the core rules alone where it is trivial to qualify for all the prerequisites and still be unable to use the feat's benefit. That's not even going into Complete Mage, which has another several dozen examples.

And you know what, I stand by Occam's Razor. The question is "What set of shapeshifting effects are similar to polymorph?" The simplest answer is "Polymorph effects." Occam's Razor.

[Paragon]

{Scrubbed}

Occam's Razor means: "It is generally understood in the sense that with competing theories or explanations, the simpler one, for example a model with fewer parameters, is to be preferred"

{Scrubbed}


ah ? A smart move ? "I can already predict their counter arguments"


1. They will come up with a reason to dismiss everything in this post and claim their interpretation is consistent with "Occam's Razor". And provide no rule quotes of their own. They did, keep telling you they did but you ignore them and keep on crying.
or

2. They will say Occam's Razor is irrelevant. That the feat is clearly saying "similar effect" is something specifically similar to polymorph self instead of an effect that alters your form with absolutely no rule basis and that specific trumps general therefore they are right. it does, if used correctly. If you use it to say "My surroundings are all very flat so Earth must be flat" and then proceed to throw every square meter you can find that is flat and be like "I'm right bitches, if you can't find one that's wrong it's because it's flat".
or

3. They will produce a feat that is exception to the norm and requires additional things other than those listed in its prerequisite as proof that I am wrong and why they're right. {Scrubbed}
or

4. They'll say the intent is clear that it doesn't work with Minor Change Shape because its similar to Disguise Self and not Polymorph Self. Which I believe is no longer true. In the same book that introduced the feat:Savage Species, we have a direct rule quote saying Alternate Form is similar to 3.0 Alter Self (which is 3.5's Minor Change Shape), and 3.0 Alter Self specifically says it lets you assume the form of creatures so there is enough to claim that it is intentional that Minor Change Shape works with Assume Supernatural Ability. If you want to keep on believing something that isn't true, you can, there is no rules against it BUT that doesn't make you right, {Scrubbed}. 3.0 was revised into 3.5. MCS is 3.5 ergo when mixing 3.0 and 3.5 you should know some stuff doesn't add up. {Scrubbed}

5. They'll say the creation of the polymorph subschool defines what a "similar effect" to polymorph self is and therefore in the update, no matter what this feat worked with in 3.0, it now only works with spells and only spells with the polymorph subschool, because I say so. No rule quotes. Do you need a quote from WotC that tells you specifically that everything 3.0 is an outdated version and that you should focus on 3.5 content when that exists ?
or

6. How about an extreme nitpick? Technically, if you are incapable of assuming a form with a supernatural ability you selected, you can't use it, therefore technically you do require more things than what is listed in the prerequisite to use this feat. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here used this argument with 100% seriousness. {Scrubbed}



So no, I'm not biased here. {Scrubbed}

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread closed.