SangoProduction
2022-06-22, 11:27 PM
Preamble: Hey. It's been a while. Battling... a lot. Mostly bankruptcy. And elves. Stupid horse archer elves. In the desert. But I'm back, and ready to take a look at the Fate and Illusion spheres' advanced talents, and see if you should let them into your games.
Post Review Analysis: Fate sphere is generally fine. But surprisingly, there are 2 Hard No talents, in my book.
Illusion is unsurprisingly potent. It's one of the best, most flexible spheres in the game. But it only has one that is actually on my permanent ban list. OK. Maybe Advanced Invisibility would be too. Probably. Let's just say yes.
Warning: This rare rating is given to talents that have truly game-breaking potential. Or at the very least need very close inspection before being allowed.
Questionable: These talents have an outsized impact, and should be considered in context before being allowed.
Acceptable: This is your standard faire advanced talent tier. Worth looking at, but rarely is it going to cause the catastrophic downfall of your campaign.
Fluffy: These little to no functional difference to a character. These are also the safest to give out as reward talents. For example, if they beat the witch who eats children, they might manifest the ability to summon items made of gingerbread.
Unknown: For when I really just don't know where it would lie. It's probably needlessly complicated. Take a good look at it yourself. I'll try and provide a cliff notes version of the talent, along with potential pit falls.
Fate
Declare Fate (lvl 15): Very potent. More importantly, forces you to: make additional saves each round, think ahead, and take active notes on what your NPCs are planning to do, and then reference those notes you make, before acting. In addition to all the other nonsense you do with running monsters. If you were a computer, and this was a videogame, this would be 100% OK and fun. I mean, still very potent, relative to base, but it's level 15. As a human DM, however, I would ban this.
Execration (lvl 10): Generally, any permanent effect should be considered carefully. But... really is it going to actually change much of anything if a fate-sphere curse was made permanent instead of lasting for the fight? My review of the sphere is somewhat old, but there aren't many particularly notable curses anyway... outside of the advanced talents.
Mark Of Judgment (lvl 10): Implicitly makes your Geas permanent. Imagine just one permanent task that is silly or game breaking. Your players have already thought of 50 more, with the legalese of a devil. Just. Don't.
Consecrated Ground (lvl 5): Generally it doesn't add *too* much to the effect, given that it literally doesn't move. But if taken twice, and depending on the campaign setting, it can be somewhat problematic. Generally permanent effects should be handled with extreme care.
(Greater) Geas (lvl 10): Lets your players be the quest givers. Forcefully. But after 10 minutes of casting, on weaker creatures. Generally not going to break anything. However, if you're not careful, it can let them just have a horde of lesser creatures with an arbitrary size. Which can bog things down. Gets silly when made permanent.
Weave The Fates (lvl 10): Neat... Ultimately, it probably won't break the game. But this would require knowing what exactly the plan with this is, to give a more solid answer. It's kinda neat.
Death (lvl 5): Major buffs to any of the discharge-focused motifs. Which is most of them. But not overall game breaking.
Entropic Aura (lvl 10): Honestly? It's more likely to harm the party than help. There are more targeted means of heal blocking.
Falsehood (lvl 1): Neat for hiding information in a social game. Gives at least (caster level) minutes to escape, in normal games. Can be kind of crippling in a social game, if made permanent.
The High Priestess (lvl 5): Basically a [mass] talent as a motif. Generally not many motifs where you care about their passives.
Undying Obstinance (lvl 15): Prevents death from hit point loss in an area. There are easier ways of doing this, but this is certainly flashy like a Kindred ult.
Atonement (lvl 10): The "I'm sorry" talent. Lets paladins regain class features.
Cat’s Luck (lvl 5): Incredibly minor effects.
Compel Possessor (lvl 15): Overall, it's a neat little kick in the teeth. But doesn't *really* add much to the exorcism.
Elude Fate (lvl 10): It's fun to big-brain an encounter to ensure party safety. There are a few ways to cheese it, but cheesing it is at best a (Con score) heal. It's not even particularly notable to do so.
Illusion
Advanced Invisibility (lvl 10): Reverts invisibility to pre-USOP, so it's actual Invisibility. But at least now you have to wait until level 10. (Yes, pre-USOP, it was actually deemed acceptable to have actual (+40 stealth) greater invisibility at level 1. I had a lot of people defending it when I asked.) Anyway, nostalgia aside, is this better than Vancian invisibility? Yes. Sphere casters are limited by spell points, which are much more plentiful than spell slots, and this can last longer. But is it functionally better most of the time? I mean, with Complex Illusions, an Illusion caster is going to be able to make their entire party invisible in one cast, by lvl 10, and vancians never get access to Mass Greater Invisibility. It's definitely never less good. Just imagine if literally the entire party turns actual-invisible at the start of every encounter.
Impawsible Perspective (lvl 10): So, you know True Sight? The hard counter to illusions? Well, now your invisible party definitely can't be seen. Letting the occasional True Seeing happen is one of the few ways to keep a bit of a lid on the craziness that illusions can be.
Permanent Image (lvl 10): Any permanency is to be handled with caution. Permanent illusions especially so. Programmed, permanent illusion even more especially so. This is probably straight up on my ban list.
Phantom Mind (lvl 8): I'd be cautious with this. It can give the player an impression of "Eh, it should react fine." And then it doesn't, and it makes them upset.
Spell Disruption (lvl 5): Giving additional miss chance, specific to spells is kinda... potent to say the least.
Distant Deception (lvl 5): Super long range illusions. Very limited use in 99% of campaigns. Beyond silly in war-focused campaigns. Then again... most area magic is. Because war simply can't be conducted in the historical manner, when magic is involved. Not even with castles, given that... very big and scary things... fly.
Expand Illusion (lvl 1): Expend up to 1 (+1 per 5 lvl) spell points for an equal increase in size of illusions. That's actually fairly potent, as far as [mass]-style spells go. Illusions with larger potential size give more potential.
Phantom Pain (lvl 5): OK, let's be honest... They've dumped 3 talents into trying to do a small deal of damage, subject to "one save stops future damage." It's probably fine. Especially since Destruction was, and still is, an option. Now, I can definitely see the d**kish deal of "Hey, I'll make the entire town look like it's on fire, to kill everyone without actually harming our property," for anyone with large enough illusions. Or a lot of time. But that also kinda requires a bit more support to accomplish.
Deceive Dweomer (lvl 1): Use Magic Device synergy. I hear good things about UMD. Mostly from the perspective of noncasters. But you can also emulate "any other descriptor that may be detected or discerned by a spell or sphere effect." The sheer open-endedness of that one effect allows for arbitrary usefulness. Especially in a campaign that at all involves artifacts. I have no way of rating this. It's probably fine for 90% of campaigns. I think. Maybe. Potentially. In all my decades, and hundreds of players, I've literally never run across a singular player that made extensive use of UMD.
Post Review Analysis: Fate sphere is generally fine. But surprisingly, there are 2 Hard No talents, in my book.
Illusion is unsurprisingly potent. It's one of the best, most flexible spheres in the game. But it only has one that is actually on my permanent ban list. OK. Maybe Advanced Invisibility would be too. Probably. Let's just say yes.
Warning: This rare rating is given to talents that have truly game-breaking potential. Or at the very least need very close inspection before being allowed.
Questionable: These talents have an outsized impact, and should be considered in context before being allowed.
Acceptable: This is your standard faire advanced talent tier. Worth looking at, but rarely is it going to cause the catastrophic downfall of your campaign.
Fluffy: These little to no functional difference to a character. These are also the safest to give out as reward talents. For example, if they beat the witch who eats children, they might manifest the ability to summon items made of gingerbread.
Unknown: For when I really just don't know where it would lie. It's probably needlessly complicated. Take a good look at it yourself. I'll try and provide a cliff notes version of the talent, along with potential pit falls.
Fate
Declare Fate (lvl 15): Very potent. More importantly, forces you to: make additional saves each round, think ahead, and take active notes on what your NPCs are planning to do, and then reference those notes you make, before acting. In addition to all the other nonsense you do with running monsters. If you were a computer, and this was a videogame, this would be 100% OK and fun. I mean, still very potent, relative to base, but it's level 15. As a human DM, however, I would ban this.
Execration (lvl 10): Generally, any permanent effect should be considered carefully. But... really is it going to actually change much of anything if a fate-sphere curse was made permanent instead of lasting for the fight? My review of the sphere is somewhat old, but there aren't many particularly notable curses anyway... outside of the advanced talents.
Mark Of Judgment (lvl 10): Implicitly makes your Geas permanent. Imagine just one permanent task that is silly or game breaking. Your players have already thought of 50 more, with the legalese of a devil. Just. Don't.
Consecrated Ground (lvl 5): Generally it doesn't add *too* much to the effect, given that it literally doesn't move. But if taken twice, and depending on the campaign setting, it can be somewhat problematic. Generally permanent effects should be handled with extreme care.
(Greater) Geas (lvl 10): Lets your players be the quest givers. Forcefully. But after 10 minutes of casting, on weaker creatures. Generally not going to break anything. However, if you're not careful, it can let them just have a horde of lesser creatures with an arbitrary size. Which can bog things down. Gets silly when made permanent.
Weave The Fates (lvl 10): Neat... Ultimately, it probably won't break the game. But this would require knowing what exactly the plan with this is, to give a more solid answer. It's kinda neat.
Death (lvl 5): Major buffs to any of the discharge-focused motifs. Which is most of them. But not overall game breaking.
Entropic Aura (lvl 10): Honestly? It's more likely to harm the party than help. There are more targeted means of heal blocking.
Falsehood (lvl 1): Neat for hiding information in a social game. Gives at least (caster level) minutes to escape, in normal games. Can be kind of crippling in a social game, if made permanent.
The High Priestess (lvl 5): Basically a [mass] talent as a motif. Generally not many motifs where you care about their passives.
Undying Obstinance (lvl 15): Prevents death from hit point loss in an area. There are easier ways of doing this, but this is certainly flashy like a Kindred ult.
Atonement (lvl 10): The "I'm sorry" talent. Lets paladins regain class features.
Cat’s Luck (lvl 5): Incredibly minor effects.
Compel Possessor (lvl 15): Overall, it's a neat little kick in the teeth. But doesn't *really* add much to the exorcism.
Elude Fate (lvl 10): It's fun to big-brain an encounter to ensure party safety. There are a few ways to cheese it, but cheesing it is at best a (Con score) heal. It's not even particularly notable to do so.
Illusion
Advanced Invisibility (lvl 10): Reverts invisibility to pre-USOP, so it's actual Invisibility. But at least now you have to wait until level 10. (Yes, pre-USOP, it was actually deemed acceptable to have actual (+40 stealth) greater invisibility at level 1. I had a lot of people defending it when I asked.) Anyway, nostalgia aside, is this better than Vancian invisibility? Yes. Sphere casters are limited by spell points, which are much more plentiful than spell slots, and this can last longer. But is it functionally better most of the time? I mean, with Complex Illusions, an Illusion caster is going to be able to make their entire party invisible in one cast, by lvl 10, and vancians never get access to Mass Greater Invisibility. It's definitely never less good. Just imagine if literally the entire party turns actual-invisible at the start of every encounter.
Impawsible Perspective (lvl 10): So, you know True Sight? The hard counter to illusions? Well, now your invisible party definitely can't be seen. Letting the occasional True Seeing happen is one of the few ways to keep a bit of a lid on the craziness that illusions can be.
Permanent Image (lvl 10): Any permanency is to be handled with caution. Permanent illusions especially so. Programmed, permanent illusion even more especially so. This is probably straight up on my ban list.
Phantom Mind (lvl 8): I'd be cautious with this. It can give the player an impression of "Eh, it should react fine." And then it doesn't, and it makes them upset.
Spell Disruption (lvl 5): Giving additional miss chance, specific to spells is kinda... potent to say the least.
Distant Deception (lvl 5): Super long range illusions. Very limited use in 99% of campaigns. Beyond silly in war-focused campaigns. Then again... most area magic is. Because war simply can't be conducted in the historical manner, when magic is involved. Not even with castles, given that... very big and scary things... fly.
Expand Illusion (lvl 1): Expend up to 1 (+1 per 5 lvl) spell points for an equal increase in size of illusions. That's actually fairly potent, as far as [mass]-style spells go. Illusions with larger potential size give more potential.
Phantom Pain (lvl 5): OK, let's be honest... They've dumped 3 talents into trying to do a small deal of damage, subject to "one save stops future damage." It's probably fine. Especially since Destruction was, and still is, an option. Now, I can definitely see the d**kish deal of "Hey, I'll make the entire town look like it's on fire, to kill everyone without actually harming our property," for anyone with large enough illusions. Or a lot of time. But that also kinda requires a bit more support to accomplish.
Deceive Dweomer (lvl 1): Use Magic Device synergy. I hear good things about UMD. Mostly from the perspective of noncasters. But you can also emulate "any other descriptor that may be detected or discerned by a spell or sphere effect." The sheer open-endedness of that one effect allows for arbitrary usefulness. Especially in a campaign that at all involves artifacts. I have no way of rating this. It's probably fine for 90% of campaigns. I think. Maybe. Potentially. In all my decades, and hundreds of players, I've literally never run across a singular player that made extensive use of UMD.