The Killing of a Spectral Deer

[Venger]

The spell "spectral stag" from player's guide to faerun makes a pseudo-creature, of the unseen servant, mordenkainen's hound, etc variety that has like half the stats a creature needs.

Of particular note is that it has a handful of hit points, and when they are depleted, it disappears. However, it also can be neither attacked nor damaged.

Obviously, the actual explanation for this is the lack of editing and overall laziness of the devs, but out of idle curiosity, what are all the ways the spectral stag specifically could use hit points without being attacked or damaged?

It's not a creature so can't take class levels and manifest empathic transfer or anything. If it walked into a greater consumptive aura, would it lose hp? Aoes just damage normally so those are probably out.

Is there a way to deplete a spectral stag's hp and make it disappear, or not?

[sleepyphoenixx]

It can be damaged normally by AoO's when bull rushing someone. It's right there in the spell description.

[Venger]

No it can't.


The stag cannot be attacked or damaged, but if you are riding it when it attempts a bull rush, the defender may use her attack of opportunity against you instead of against the stag.

The defender cannot use the aoo against the stag, since it can't be attacked or damaged.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No it can't.



The defender cannot use the aoo against the stag, since it can't be attacked or damaged.

I stand corrected. How did i misread that?

[ciopo]

It takes damage from forced march?

I read it's HP pool the way I would for phantom steed: it's a limitation on how many hours I can have it run/hustles

P.s. it was reprinted in spell compendium

Edit: nevermind confused spectral stag and phantom stag

Edit2: it does map to phantom steed just the same, 7+CL hp is hustle damage food methinks

[sleepyphoenixx]

It takes damage from forced march?

I read it's HP pool the way I would for phantom steed: it's a limitation on how many hours I can have it run/hustles

P.s. it was reprinted in spell compendium

Edit: nevermind confused spectral stag and phantom stag

Edit2: it does map to phantom steed just the same, 7+CL hp is hustle damage food methinks

It only lasts 1 round/level though. Even if it lasted long enough to take nonlethal damage from hustling it can't be damaged

[Dimers]

Mm, if you can somehow give the stag negative levels without attacking it, each negative level makes it lose 5 hp without being "damage". So if you cast retributive enervation and the stag successfully melee attacks you with its bull rush, it loses 5hp. The only other way I can think of to impose negative levels without an attack is via holding aligned or bane weapons, and I don't recall any that would apply to the stag (if it could even hold one).

[ciopo]

It only lasts 1 round/level though. Even if it lasted long enough to take nonlethal damage from hustling it can't be damaged
mh, fixed range 0, it's persistable!

(and isn't that's a laugh)

does anyone have a 3.0 PHB to make a comparison to 3.0 phantom steed? I feel that's the use case we're to reproduce

Also, "can't be damaged" and "can't take damage" are two discrete different things to me. To make a MTG comparison, it's the difference between effects that says "tap an untapped creature: do X" and creatures with "tap: do X", the first one can be paid with creatures summoned on that turn, in spite of haste

[Inevitability]

Mm, if you can somehow give the stag negative levels without attacking it, each negative level makes it lose 5 hp without being "damage". So if you cast retributive enervation and the stag successfully melee attacks you with its bull rush, it loses 5hp. The only other way I can think of to impose negative levels without an attack is via holding aligned or bane weapons, and I don't recall any that would apply to the stag (if it could even hold one).

Greater-negative (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#negativeDominant) planes should also work as a way to give the stag negative levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

mh, fixed range 0, it's persistable!

(and isn't that's a laugh)
If you can do it for free it's actually a pretty decent summon or mount for a level 2 spell.
Too bad it's Malar-only, and at that level getting off-list spells isn't exactly easy.

I doubt the designers added hp just because of persist though. That kind of thoroughness would be... unusual, politely speaking. :smalltongue:
"Lack of editing and laziness" sounds more plausible to me.


does anyone have a 3.0 PHB to make a comparison to 3.0 phantom steed? I feel that's the use case we're to reproduce

Also, "can't be damaged" and "can't take damage" are two discrete different things to me. To make a MTG comparison, it's the difference between effects that says "tap an untapped creature: do X" and creatures with "tap: do X", the first one can be paid with creatures summoned on that turn, in spite of haste

You can interpret it that way but 3.5's language really isn't consistent enough to make that distinction imo. The rules for MtG are far more carefully written.

[Dimers]

Greater-negative (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#negativeDominant) planes should also work as a way to give the stag negative levels.

Oh, and while we're at it, a spectral stag might explode pretty quickly on a major positive-dominant plane. Especially since you can't attack/damage it to remove temp hp.

[Khatoblepas]

It is a creature, and it says "it cannot be attacked or damaged" but it can be targeted.

Couldn't you manifest Fusion on it and gain its tiny amount of HP, and more importantly, the immunity to being attacked and damaged? You'd cease to exist at the end of the spell, but surely there's a way around that.

[icefractal]

Interesting idea. Fusion can be dismissed, so just make sure to do that before the Spectral Stag spell runs out.

If you go with the "Astral Seed launders temporary effects into permanent changes" interpretation, which I don't recommend, then this is another improvement to the godlike power you get from that.