Wights vs incorporeal vs DR?

[gadren]

My apologies if this has been asked before and my search-fu was too weak to find it:

Does the wight’s slam attack count as a magic weapon for attacking DR/magic or incorporeals?

If a wight hits with an attack but its damage is reduced to 0 by some form of DR, does it still energy drain?

Obviously this question applies to other undead too, just using wight as the example.

[Khedrac]

My apologies if this has been asked before and my search-fu was too weak to find it:

Does the wight’s slam attack count as a magic weapon for attacking DR/magic or incorporeals?

If a wight hits with an attack but its damage is reduced to 0 by some form of DR, does it still energy drain?

Obviously this question applies to other undead too, just using wight as the example.

No - since a wight does not have DR/magic it does not overcome DR/magic.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. [text about weapons] Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

No (to my surprise) - energy drain/damage is a specific exception to the rule about DR negating rider effects.

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Emphasis mine.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A creatures natural weapons only count as magic if it has DR/magic or the description says they do. Wights don't have DR, so they can't pierce DR/magic.
The same goes for DR/epic but not other forms of DR. Creatures with alignment subtypes overcome DR/that alignment.

If damage reduction completely negates normal damage it also negates rider effects like energy drain (RC p.41). Edit: apparently they're an exception, so disregard that.

[Tzardok]

I'm not sure wether it's RAW or a house rule, but in my experience most beings that can cause energy drain with their natural weapons can also cause their energy drain with touch attacks. With that in mind DR not affecting energy drain makes sense.

Also, negative energy is called out as one of the things that can affect incorporeal creatures, so a wight can propably use the energy drain on (living) incorporeal beings.

[ShurikVch]

Negative Energy ignores incorporeality - Wight can try to ED ghosts (but it would only heal them :smallsmile:); for incorporeal non-Undead effect would be normal (whatever is "normal" for those particular critters)

[gadren]

Negative Energy ignores incorporeality - Wight can try to ED ghosts (but it would only heal them :smallsmile:); for incorporeal non-Undead effect would be normal (whatever is "normal" for those particular critters)

I know energy drain can affect incorporeal, but wights on deal energy drain on a successful slam attack, and since their slam attacks don’t count as magic weapons, they have 0% chance to actually hit someone who is incorporeal, correct?

[Thunder999]

Correct, Wights do not have a seperate energy drain ability to try and use against incorporeal foes so cannot hit them with their energy drain.

[Crake]

Negative Energy ignores incorporeality - Wight can try to ED ghosts (but it would only heal them :smallsmile:); for incorporeal non-Undead effect would be normal (whatever is "normal" for those particular critters)

Energy drain is not explicitly stated as being negative energy though. Many sources are cited as being negative energy, sure, enervation and the energy drain spell for example, but nowhere in the energy drain description does it actually state that it's actually negative energy, nor that other undead are healed by it, that's actually exclusive to the enervation spell.


A creatures natural weapons only count as magic if it has DR/magic or the description says they do. Wights don't have DR, so they can't pierce DR/magic.

That may be true for overcoming damage reduction, but it doesn't help for hitting incorporeal creatures. A creature with DR/magic has it's natural weapons count as magical only for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, so it still retains the 0% chance to hit incorporeal creatures.

[ShurikVch]

Energy drain is not explicitly stated as being negative energy though. Many sources are cited as being negative energy, sure, enervation and the energy drain spell for example, but nowhere in the energy drain description does it actually state that it's actually negative energy
Complete Arcane:

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell deals extra damage of the same type as the spell normally deals.
...
The exception is spells that deal energy drain or ability damage, which deal negative energy damage on a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage.
Energy drain == Negative Energy

[InvisibleBison]

Complete Arcane:

Energy drain == Negative Energy

In this one specific case, negative energy damage fills in for negative levels to prevent something overpowered. That doesn't mean that energy drain is always a negative energy phenomenon.

[Tzardok]

That is true; IIRC the abilities of the Void Diciple are level drain, but not negative energy. But when nothing else is written about the origin of a level drain effect, the general assumption is that it is a negative energy effect. Especially for wights, I mean, it is often mentioned that if somebody dies of negative energy level drain the body rises as a wight.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That is true; IIRC the abilities of the Void Diciple are level drain, but not negative energy. But when nothing else is written about the origin of a level drain effect, the general assumption is that it is a negative energy effect. Especially for wights, I mean, it is often mentioned that if somebody dies of negative energy level drain the body rises as a wight.

I think you're mixing up negative energy and negative levels. They're not the same thing.

And when no descriptor is mentioned the general assumption is that it's untyped.
Energy drain doesn't mention a descriptor so as long as an energy drain ability doesn't specifically say it's negative energy it's not.

Energy drain is also called out separately for immunity in the Death Ward description, which wouldn't be necessary if it was negative energy.

[Tzardok]

I disagree that I'm mixing up things. I'm only associating things.

Level drain is nearly always on things that utilize negative energy. Killing things through level drain causes them to rise as wights or other undead. Everything that protects from negative energy also protects from level drain. The idea that the two are related phenomena makes sense.

Furthermore, I have the impression your idea of negative energy is overly restrictive. You seem to think that only damage through negative energy is a negative energy effect, when it's explicitly called out that other effects may also utilize negative energy, like rebuking undead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I disagree that I'm mixing up things. I'm only associating things.

Level drain is nearly always on things that utilize negative energy. Killing things through level drain causes them to rise as wights or other undead. Everything that protects from negative energy also protects from level drain. The idea that the two are related phenomena makes sense.

Furthermore, I have the impression your idea of negative energy is overly restrictive. You seem to think that only damage through negative energy is a negative energy effect, when it's explicitly called out that other effects may also utilize negative energy, like rebuking undead.
3.5 doesn't add descriptors or damage types by association. If something has a particular damage type or descriptor the rules for it say so, otherwise it doesn't.

Energy drain (the special ability, not the spell) doesn't. Which is my point. It's its own, separate special ability.
It's neither called out as being negative energy nor does it reference an ability that uses negative energy, so the default assumption is that it's not negative energy unless a creature or spell entry specifies otherwise (as Enervation does).

Just because the two tend to appear on the same type of creature doesn't make them the same thing.

[Tzardok]

*shrug* maybe that's just me inappropriately mixing up fluff and crunch, but I will continue to treat all forms of level drain that aren't explicitely called out in their fluff as something else as negative energy. It makes the most sense to me.