Longtooth Shifter Fathomless build

[Emongnome777]

Yeah, when I saw the title, I wondered how someone came up with that class / race combo, but I see now.

One benefit is that your shifting is returned on a short rest, like some warlock features, so you'll get more from every short rest. The rest of the party not so much, but maybe if the paladin has a good CD, they will want that back frequently.

The biggest issue with this combo is the bonus action clutter. Shifting, attacking with fangs, casting/moving Hex (if you take this spell), and your tentacles are summoned/moved with a bonus action. Yeah, that's a lot. Shifting is there is you need a temp hit point boost, but honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about using your racial features. Feels bad, but you got what you got.

Personally, I love the Fathomless as a subclass as much for the flavor as the abilities. It's not the strongest, but I'd say it's in the top half for warlocks and it looks fun. Something to ask the DM is whether you can apply Hex damage to your tentacles. It seems that way, but I haven't dug deeply into the wording to see if that works. I'm sure someone here can help answer that as well.

You'll obviously get the most fun from the class and background if your campaign includes underwater or seafaring elements in it. Let's hope so. If not, that's ok too, I think it'll still be fun.

Can you refluff your shifter into a something shark-like (or any sea creature with a bite attack)? Just a thought.

[stoutstien]

Good news is even if fathom isn't the most powerful option it's solid. The tentacle is mostly useful for it's speed reduction which stacks with lance of lethargy and DT for soft lockdown.
The spell list is also often overlooked. It's concentration heavy but stuff like summon elemental on a lock can make you tanker than most.
As for the race you could only use it for the THP and be set.

[Skrum]

Longtooth shifter is pretty bad. Not really seeing a way to make it a contributor to the build. Though the shark theme is definitely cool.

Hex/EB probably is the way to go. The tentacle gives you a 3rd attack, which IMO is what makes hex worth it (hex absolutely applies to the tentacle). Probably go Tomb, I guess, for the versatility?

I think eldritch mind is nearly mandatory for hex builds, as losing concentration is incredibly painful. Starting at 5th, a single cast of hex can last much longer than most adventuring days - as long as you maintain concentration.

Ok different idea - what's the chances your DM will let you get a Gazer familiar? Pact of the Chain w/ a Gazer is potent CC, and mixed with EB invocations, can produce quite a bit of resourceless CC. The main weakness of this is it eats your bonus action every round, so hex and tentacle aren't as useful. On the plus side, not using hex frees up your concentration for AoE spells.

If you can get the gazer, I think that sounds like the more fun build.

[RogueJK]

Ranged with Agonizing/Repelling EB and Tentacle, using Shifting purely for the Temp HP if needed, is the more SAD build, and will be easier to optimize.


But there's also a totally viable melee build here (although not necessarily optimized), without worrying too much about BA clog.

Nothing says you have to use your Longtooth BA attack and your Tentacle BA attack during the same combat. In fact, you shouldn't. But your Longtooth Shift gives you a viable alternative BA melee attack even when you've run out of Tentacle uses, or you want to save them for a later/bigger combat. You won't have enough Tentacle uses to utilize it in every combat anyway, nor will you have enough Shift uses for every combat either.

Granted, this won't alleviate the Hex conflict, but nothing says all Warlocks have to utilize Hex. (Many of mine either rarely - or never - use it... Past Tier 1ish, I find that my Warlocks tend to have better things to utilize their Concentration on, but might still keep it on hand to upcast prior to a short rest just for efficient Pact slot usage but drop Concentration once I get into a significant fight.)

A melee build might look something like this:
Longtooth Shifter Fathomless Warlock 1 -> Fighter 1 -> Bladelock X
STR 14+2
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 13+1
ASIs: 16 CHA, 18 STR, 18 CHA, 20 STR
Take the Defense fighting style at Level 2, wear Medium Armor starting at Level 2, and utilize a 2H weapon so you always have a hand free for casting.
You now have 2x attacks in many combats from Levels 1-5, and 3x attacks from 6+ with Thirsting Blade. Plus you can still sling EBs from afar when needed.

Or if you'd rather have a little additional buff/utility spellcasting and Heavy Armor instead:
Warlock 1 -> War/Tempest/Twilight/Life/Nature/Forge Cleric 1 -> Bladelock X
STR 14+2
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 9
WIS 13
CHA 13+1

[stoutstien]

Longtooth shifter is pretty bad. Not really seeing a way to make it a contributor to the build. Though the shark theme is definitely cool.

Hex/EB probably is the way to go. The tentacle gives you a 3rd attack, which IMO is what makes hex worth it (hex absolutely applies to the tentacle). Probably go Tomb, I guess, for the versatility?

I think eldritch mind is nearly mandatory for hex builds, as losing concentration is incredibly painful. Starting at 5th, a single cast of hex can last much longer than most adventuring days - as long as you maintain concentration.

Ok different idea - what's the chances your DM will let you get a Gazer familiar? Pact of the Chain w/ a Gazer is potent CC, and mixed with EB invocations, can produce quite a bit of resourceless CC. The main weakness of this is it eats your bonus action every round, so hex and tentacle aren't as useful. On the plus side, not using hex frees up your concentration for AoE spells.

If you can get the gazer, I think that sounds like the more fun build.

IMO hex is usually lackluster for it's cost unless you can leverage the ability check disadvantage rider. It's duration is a red herring due to the action cost to swap it even if you rest cast it let alone concentration which is huge for warlocks. This goes double for a warlock who already has two different bonus action pools that individually outweigh the extra ~2.3 damage per EB beam on a single target.

[Skrum]

IMO hex is usually lackluster for it's cost unless you can leverage the ability check disadvantage rider. It's duration is a red herring due to the action cost to swap it even if you rest cast it let alone concentration which is huge for warlocks. This goes double for a warlock who already has two different bonus action pools that individually outweigh the extra ~2.3 damage per EB beam on a single target.

The action cost only matters if you have something else to do with your bonus action. Some builds can afford it, some can't. Chainlock absolutely can't; they need their bonus to direct their familiar. But a bonus action or two to put hex on a stronger foe is generally worth it, if you have enough attacks. Rod of the Pact Keeper helps a lot too, as you can cast hex, hopefully maintain concentration, and then get your spell slot back.

I directionally agree though. Hex takes a lot of resources, so making sure the benefit makes up for the cost is really important.

[Skrum]

You now have 2x attacks in many combats from Levels 1-5, and 3x attacks from 6+ with Thirsting Blade. Plus you can still sling EBs from afar when needed.

Do note though that longtooth doesn't give you an extra attack. It just gives you a passable unarmed strike. Tentacle gives you can extra attack, though it's weak. And as you said, it probably isn't enough uses to be used in all combat.

[RogueJK]

Do note though that longtooth doesn't give you an extra attack. It just gives you a passable unarmed strike.

No, both the Legacy version and the MotM version of the Longtooth Shifter give you a Bonus Action bite attack.

Legacy version Longtooth:
"While shifted, you can use your elongated fangs to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action. If you hit with your fangs, you can deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike."

MotM version Longtooth:
"When you shift and as a bonus action on your other turns while shifted, you can use your elongated fangs to make an unarmed strike. If you hit with your fangs, you can deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike."

[Skrum]

No, both the Legacy version and the MotM version of the Longtooth Shifter give you a Bonus Action bite attack.

Whoops, that is correct. Longtooth is definitely not as useless as I thought xD

[tiornys]

Agreed that Hex is not something to optimize around. The Fathomless expanded spell list is excellent with Thunderwave and Lightning Bolt for blasting, plus Silence, Sleet Storm, Bigby's Hand, and Evard's Black Tentacles as great concentration options that add some nice diversity to the standard Warlock options like Hypnotic Pattern, Hunger of Hadar, and the various summoning spells. If taking a Tasha's Summon spell, Summon Shadowspawn is close to strictly better than Summon (Water) Elemental and the Despair form especially synergizes nicely with the Tentacle to sap enemy movement.

RogueJK provided great advice if you decide to go for the melee/close-quarters build; note that your bonus attacks synergize nicely with Spirit Shroud. However, I think Fathomless is at its best staying back and using movement denial to control melee enemies or Silence/Sleet Storm to neutralize casters. With a three person party I think you should invest in extra AC even if you plan to stay ranged. Ignoring the racial fangs entirely, you might go something like this:

Warlock 1/Peace(or whatever) Cleric 1/Warlock X
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 14 = 13+1
Int: 9
Wis: 13
Cha: 17 = 15+2
ASIs: Fey Touched (Cha), Resilient CON, Con 16/Wis 14, Cha 20

Wear medium armor + a shield from 2nd level and keep your other hand free for spellcasting. Agonizing + Repelling Blast at Warlock 2. By Warlock 3 you'll have a good idea of how valuable forced movement and movement denial is for your party; if it's rarely useful (e.g. the Paladin and Rogue are both dedicated melee and just charge into the enemies even if you have them stuck), go Tome Pact and swap Repelling Blast for Book of Ancient Secrets. If you want to keep investing in Eldritch Blast invocations and/or Eldritch Mind, Chain Pact is better than the other pacts with no invocation support.

[tiornys]

How about Talisman Pact? It also has nice reaction push 10 ft.
Yeah, Talisman + Rebuke of the Talisman is a nice alternative if you value the personal protection over the ritual casting utility. Especially attractive if you don't think your DM will make it reasonable for you to acquire additional rituals.

[Sherlockpwns]

When you think of a shark, I can't imagine staying back and blasting away, so I too suggest a melee focused warlock. Shifter or tentacle will depend on the fight and your resources, but the real nice thing is it removes a lot of pressure on having to decide if you want to use a feature or not. If you are using the new Shifter, you'll literally be shifting or tentacle-ing every fight. If you're using the old shifter you'll probably use shift on the bigger fights and tentacle on the smaller ones (for the massive temp HP boost). Personally in this scenario I think the older version is better, since you already have tons of things to do with your bonus action.

Which multi? Well, given you'll probably want a str based attack (since your BA attack will be str anyway), I'd make the almost criminal decision to not worry too much about CHA and head for anything that gets heavy armor + some other benefit. Further, I'd probably want a shield instead of the 2H approach. More on that in a moment.

I don't think Fighter is the way to go. Fighter gets you a combat style (let's say, +1 AC) and second wind (a nice way to gain some HP). It doesn't get you heavy armor unless you start as a fighter (which is fine)

However, as an example a Forge Cleric can give themselves +1 AC as well and 2 cure wounds (or other spells) and doesn't need to start at level 1. A Life Cleric can cure even more at the expense of that HP. An Order cleric has a different set of benefits entirely and a nature cleric gets a few extra skills. twilight gets you a bunch of stuff as well that is harder to make a 1:1 comparison.

So in short, 1 level of Cleric (Forge, Life, Nature, Order, Twilight, Tempest or War)- whatever fits thematically. I'd personally probably take Forge unless I believed the campaign would go for a very long time where the value of that +1 armor will become worthless. Second choice probably Order because it makes Bless a staggeringly good spell (potentially allowing a bless and a rogue sneak attack). That action will serve you through a whole game.

I'd probably dip Cleric very early, probably at level 3.

So, the meat and potatoes of the Warlock:

Level 2: Cleric time. Or you could have done this at level 1, it doesn't really matter. You can now have a shield + armor, but for the moment you'll go just armor and any 2H weapon you can use.

Level 3: Take improved pact weapon for the bonus to hit/dmg and, more importantly, so you'll be able to use a shield and still cast spells. This is like getting War Caster without a feat (similar but different). You'll be pretty squishy here still, so you probably want to be careful. Swap out the 2H weapon for a 1H weapon and a shield. Any weapon you can use is fine here.

Level 4: Now you can take pact of the blade and swap to a longsword or any D8 weapon you want. Pact it up. Congrats, you are now a fighter with significant spell casting power and significant melee power. Since you dont have to worry about those pesky EB invocations, pick something fun like being able to cast silent image at will or disguise self or detect magic... or even just being able to read every language. You'll probably swap it out eventually anyway, but they'll be fun for a while.

Level 5 (Warlock 4): ASI time. Probably just stats for STR to 20 asap, but you don't have to.

Level 6: Invocation for extra attack.

Level 7: Your tentacle defends you. Also cold res. This makes tentacle potentially far better than shifting in many situations, but again, you may run out of it so it is good to have a backup.

Level 8: You can now summon water elementals. I mean, wouldn't you?

And so on.

Let's talk spells for a second as well. I think the bread and butter here is Armor of Agathys when tentacle summoning. With the damage reduction and your armor, you'll be a dangerous foe to attack. Ideally you'll want to pre-cast this before or between combat since it lasts an hour. If you can't cast it, no worries. Since we kind of dumped CHA you'll be casting some less common warlock spells. Things like Hellish Rebuke or later on counterspell, Darkness (especially with the invocation that lets you see), or any of the summoning spells. Since you'll only get 2 warlock casts there will be plenty of combats where you won't cast anything.

Regardless you'll have fighter-level AC, dishing out 1d8+1+str (x2 at level 6) + either 1d8 or 1d6+str. You'll have a ton of temp HP to make up for your class selection between Agathys and Shifter form (especially the old shifter form). Unlike a fighter, You can bless and/or bring people back from KO and cast a variety of useful spells in and out of combat.