PvP rule suggestions for an enjoyable / fair tournament

[da newt]

Our local game store ran a PvP during a 'free rpg day' event. It was set up for lvl 5 AL compliant PCs, and there were 4 random battle maps of various terrain. This was the first local event of it's kind, so turn out was moderate (6) and there was little optimization (4 of 6 were melee martials). They plan to do this every so often and are aiming for fun and inclusive more than intensely competitive.

Any suggestions / advice for rules or whatever to keep things enjoyable and fair?

[Captain Panda]

Any suggestions / advice for rules or whatever to keep things enjoyable and fair?

A few suggestions, because I've seen this **** go south and explode before.

1. No rule of cool. Instruct players not to do whacky things that rely on rule of cool AT ALL. There is a time and place for rule of cool, but the middle of PVP? Definitely not that time. Set that expectation early or anticipate pain as players desperately try to one up one another getting Rule of Cool benefits.

2. Run things RAW, within reason. Not "the rules don't say I can't," but really lean on the things your character can do, per the rules. Otherwise things devolve very rapidly into an argument. If RAW is unclear in a case and it's common, like with conjure animals, make sure that the way it's going to work is announced beforehand. Does player pick what comes out? Is it random? DM choice, and will the DM be picking things that are the weakest possible?

2. If you use a map, have the terrain be clear. Had a blurry VTT map once and the DM made inconsistent and strange rulings on who could see what in what square. If you're going to use complex terrain like buildings or forest, make sure it impacts both sides equally.

3. On that note, make sure that players just generally have rules applied to them evenly. I had my fun in one of these events just ruined because one side (mine, sadly) was playing the rules of the terrain and magic honestly and the other side was ignoring rules. Don't let players cast spells through buildings to hit other players behind total cover, for example (had that one happen). Don't let players badger you into allowing them to ignore a rule because the rule "makes no sense!" This can happen at any game, but I've seen it happen a lot more in PVP if it isn't shut down hard.

[Mastikator]

If you're using optional rules (like flanking, cover) be explicit about it before the game starts. Have a list of optional rules or house rules always available, there should be no surprises, surprises are bad. I agree with Captain Panda, keep it RAW. RAW should trump "making sense" and "rule of cool" and the players should know this. Also keep in mind that "the rules don't say I can't do that" isn't RAW, some things simply aren't covered by the rules. For those "making sense" and consistency should be the priority.

Don't allow magic items, their power level varies wildly and their rarity is highly inconsistent, it's easier and fairer if nobody has magic items. (not including magic items gained from class features like improved pact weapon or the magic weapon spell)

[Eldariel]

I like:
- Complex terrain (pits cover, concealment, etc.). This rewards an array of options.
- No immediate LoE. This keeps it from being Initiative check.
- 8 hour and permanent spells active at the start of the fight (it just doesn't make sense otherwise).
- Animate Dead at a cost: e.g. 100gp per corpse you wanna use.
- Short rest resources either x3 or best 2/3 with short rest between fights.
- Ban or nerf Conjure Animals, Silvery Barbs & Diviner.
- Figure out what you wanna do with Burrow, Flight, etc. They can take away options but build meta son their own right. Ceiling amd burrowability of terrain can be used to reign these in.

I find Battle Royale and Team Matches more interesting since they are self-regulating and less prone to imbalance than 1v1. But you can make 1v1 work too provided the players aren't overtly attached to winning.

[Catullus64]

A variant Initiative system would work wonders for player vs. player, honestly.

The other thing is that the combats should definitely be in teams, not 1v1. To the extent that the game accommodates PvP, it'll work best when different classes can support each other and cover for their weaknesses.

I would also remove Counterspell and Dispel Magic and replace them with a generalized (but still simple) system of countering. Perhaps use the old opposition schools to determine which school of spell is needed to counter which school.

[Captain Panda]

- Ban or nerf Conjure Animals, Silvery Barbs & Diviner.
- Figure out what you wanna do with Burrow, Flight, etc. They can take away options but build meta son their own right. Ceiling amd burrowability of terrain can be used to reign these in.


And what are you giving druids after taking away their signature spell? Terrible idea, on that one. Silvery Barbs is overrated. If it's a battle royale, Diviner is much less effective.


Have the party run through 5 medium combat encounters, with a short rest between 2-3 and 4-5. Then they get to PvP in whatever state they're in at the end of the 5th encounter,

Horrible advice. It favors the party all hiding and using nothing, and the ones who are team players and use resources just to get through (or are unlucky and get targeted) are going to be at a steep disadvantage.

[JNAProductions]

If you're using existing PCs, then Tanarii has a good point.
If everyone is making a PC specifically for this, then some classes will definitely be better than others, but everyone has the same options, so... It's fine.

Above all, make sure of two things:

1) The rules are clear. This can include impartial referees, but as much as possible should be written down and able to be interpreted clearly.
2) The players are in it to have fun. So I would definitely NOT do prizes or anything like that! Just have a fun brawl-people are gonna be trying to win, but there shouldn't be hard feelings for anyone.

[Eldariel]

And what are you giving druids after taking away their signature spell? Terrible idea, on that one. Silvery Barbs is overrated. If it's a battle royale, Diviner is much less effective.

Sorry but as written, it's just too good and completely warps the metagame. Think Mirrodin Block Affinity: only CA strategies and counterstrategies exist and CA still wins more often than not even if the opponent is specifically built to counter it. I've played more than a few level 5 arenas. Without long duration spells, it dominated every single one (with both, random summons and chosen summons, and 1v1 and teams). With long duration spells, only RAW Animate Dead offers it any competition. Unless you want an arena with only one-two viable strategies, just get rid of it.

Druids are actually pretty strong even without it between Tasha's summons, Wildshape, Plant Growth, Hold Person, etc. Counterspell is accessible through race too so they don't even lack that. They really do just fine even with nerfed or without broken version of CA.


As for Diviner and Silvery Barbs, they are simply no fun for anyone. Repeat save bypasses all Resistance abilities and Portent autofail is even less interactive. 2v2 tourney with it legal had all top 4 teams with 2 Silvery Barbs capable characters; if you land CC on one enemy you pretty much win and SB makes even +7 Wis with Lucky and Advantage dog to fail a DC14 save. In short, it just removes healthy counterplay.

As a player you abuse the best stuff to the best of your ability but as a host you can actually work to make the metagame more healthy and varied and the games more fun, and these changes serve both. They are just out of line comparatively especially PvP wise.

[Captain Panda]

only CA strategies and counterstrategies exist and CA still wins more often than not even if the opponent is specifically built to counter it. I've played more than a few level 5 arenas. Without long duration spells,


Cleric casts Spirit Guardians. Animals are in trouble.

Wizard casts Counterspell. Animals don't pop out.

Target is built for high AC, animals whiff a lot more than they hit and aren't that great (especially if they are random and not the most optimal choice).

If you're not allowing Conjure Animals, just don't allow druids. Frankly, if you ban Conjure Animals and the druid loses it doesn't even count, it wasn't a real match.

[Keravath]

In a 1v1 type PVP environment or even a free for all, some classes will have a distinct advantage, especially at level 5. I'm not sure how you can balance for that without just excluding those classes.

Examples:
- Paladins using smite can output more melee damage in a short time than any other options
- Moon Druid with conjure animals - they have a couple of bear forms available, all the rest of their spell slots, a pack of wolves or similar - it would be quite challenging to defeat

If you are running a free for all what do you do about a 2 rogue/3 wizard who casts invisibility until there is only one target standing? Will the game rules allow hiding/fog cloud - great with blind fighting/darkness+devils sight?

So you may want to consider the options available for use.

-----

As for rules - I think the options described by others would be good.

- Only RAW and strictly RAW. The DM will have enough to decide without arguing about house rules.

- Do not use optional/house rules like flanking, hitting cover, critical misses, crit and fumble tables ...

- Define exactly how other rules work as much as possible - e.g. having a creature between you and your target provides partial cover to the target. Decide what terrain options will provide 3/4 cover and under what circumstances and make this clear to the players. Can you move through spots occupied by other characters?

- Allow long term spells like Aid, Mage Armor, Darkvision to be cast before the fight begins though make sure resources are deducted for these. Don't allow any spells with a duration of 1 hour or less to be cast before the fight. (i.e. no spiritual weapon/bless/spirit guardians/conjure animals prior to the fight starting)

- Any spell lasting longer than 1 day can be pre-cast with no resource cost (eg Find Familiar)

- Decide rules for equipping characters - e.g. will heavy armor classes have plate? Medium armor half-plate? Or will the characters use starting equipment only? Starting equipment can help prevent characters dropping tons of caltrops etc. Limits on carried items? Can a character bring climbing gear and crampons in case the arena is an icy mountain? How much do the characters know about each arena?

- Extra magic items are likely best avoided since they will tend to be too unbalancing.

- Decide what rules you will use for line of sight between creatures. The rules in the DMG are very generous.

"LINE OF SIGHT
To precisely determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If at least one such line doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog-then there is line of sight."

So, RAW, all that is required for a clear line of sight between two creatures is for one corner of one square to be able to see any part (including another corner) of another space.

Cover is similar:

"Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover. If three or four of those lines are blocked but the attack can still reach the target (such as when the target is behind an arrow slit), the target has three-quarters cover."

So - all you need to see a target is a view to ANY location within a space - including through an arrow slit - while cover depends on how many of the corners of the target square are blocked from the corner of the attackers square or the point of origin of the spell being cast.

If you are using these rules then they need to be made clear to both the players and DMs since many folks use the center of the originating square and may not include corners of the targeted square - resulting in arguments of what can be seen and what can't and how much cover is present.

[Eldariel]

Cleric casts Spirit Guardians. Animals are in trouble.

Wizard casts Counterspell. Animals don't pop out.

Target is built for high AC, animals whiff a lot more than they hit and aren't that great (especially if they are random and not the most optimal choice).

If you're not allowing Conjure Animals, just don't allow druids. Frankly, if you ban Conjure Animals and the druid loses it doesn't even count, it wasn't a real match.

You REALLY think I'm saying this without those having been in play? Seriously? What do you take my experience for? If you go Shepherd your summons will shrug at SG and even without it, about 30-50% will likely survive which is still enough to kill many PCs or at least to deal fatal damage enabling a finisher. They might even kill the Cleric before it gets the spell off. So...it really doesn't do enough.

As for Counterspell, it:
- Has 60' range.
- Can be Counter-Counterspelled with Mark of the Sentinel.
- Can be avoided with Subtle Spell.
- Can be avoided with anything breaking line of sight or effect.

As for high AC, a substantial portion of the options have +5-+6 to hit (Giant Poisonous Snake, all Cow variants, Flying Snake, Elk, etc.) and it's possible to get advantage through a plethora of ways. Anything short of 20 AC + Shield-spell does little and that has to go for all characters on the team for the spell to not ravage you. And Shields have to be protected too: if you can murder a PC it's easily worth Counterspelling Shield (which can't be Counter-Counterspelled due to reaction economy and range is not usable either since it's not the murderee's turn). Like I said, I've played tournaments and leagues that allowed it. It's simply a Conjure Animals vs. Anti-Conjure Animals meta and CA still wins more often than not.

And no, Druids don't need it to be competitive. Been there seen that too. Druids already have the highest HP total by a vast margin (Moon Wildshape gives you +100 HP if desired), a solid list (e.g. Spike Growth grater is also very strong), and the ability to act as discount martials thanks to Wildshape too.


Given all it takes to "kill" all the Conjured Animals is a javelin hit and failing a typically d20+2 vs DC 10 roll, I think PvP players will be able to handle it.

Guess what's the best way to make the caster lose Concentration? Hitting them with a lot of attacks (has the side effect of likely killing them). Best way to accomplish both? Conjure Animals :smallwink: Nothing else gives you 8-16 attacks a turn on this level, let alone ones that can do 3d6+3 damage per hit (Fighters are struggling to get past 2d6+4 and even on a nova turn, 6 attacks is the absolute best they can accomplish). But obviously it having Concentration makes it balanced. Mind, Conjure Animals for CR 1/2, CR 1 and CR 2 is largely fine. It's just the 8 CR 1/4s that's totally broken.

[da newt]

I've suggested a 2 minions/player max at any one time to nerf minionmancy while still allowing it to be a viable and powerful strategy (familiars, defenders, mounts, pets, summons, conjures, etc), and Animals will determined by the DM via random die roll (you're pretty sure to get something OK like riding horses but can't count on constrictors or a pack of wolves).

I've also recommended flying PCs be limited to ending their turn no more than 10' high (so they are within normal martial attack range height - a flying PC that can stay out of range of a foe can be an auto win [and yes of course every PC SHOULD have a ranged attack capability]).

Yeah - things like silvery barbs, divination, EA, etc could be problematic ... I'm not so sure how to nerf those without outright bans.
Darkness / fogcloud strategies are also interesting.

There is some discussion of 2v2 or 3v3 which I think could be very interesting, magic weapons are limited to one each from a small approved list, and combatants will benefit from a long rest between combats.



Please keep the advice coming.

[Eldariel]

I've suggested a 2 minions/player max at any one time to nerf minionmancy while still allowing it to be a viable and powerful strategy (familiars, defenders, mounts, pets, summons, conjures, etc), and Animals will determined by the DM via random die roll (you're pretty sure to get something OK like riding horses but can't count on constrictors or a pack of wolves).

I've also recommended flying PCs be limited to ending their turn no more than 10' high (so they are within normal martial attack range height - a flying PC that can stay out of range of a foe can be an auto win [and yes of course every PC SHOULD have a ranged attack capability]).

Yeah - things like silvery barbs, divination, EA, etc could be problematic ... I'm not so sure how to nerf those without outright bans.
Darkness / fogcloud strategies are also interesting.

There is some discussion of 2v2 or 3v3 which I think could be very interesting, magic weapons are limited to one each from a small approved list, and combatants will benefit from a long rest between combats.



Please keep the advice coming.


The "2 minion"-limit is fine. It makes CA fairly balanced but still usable with the CR 1 options, though at that point I might let the PC pick what they get - differentiates it from Summon Lesser Demons which I would run as random CR 1s with these rules. CR 1 CA forms are offensively actually not much stronger than CR ½ - Brown Bear, Deinonychus, etc. can hit for 20ish DPR but their attack bonus is the same as most CR 1/4 options and their HP total isn't that high (2-4x the CR 1/4 options largely). And in PvP, excess randomness in effect generally feels bad, especially in top tier options.

Darkness/Fog Cloud is decent but it gets naturally countered by opposing Darkness/Fog Cloud strategies and the game features a lot of those with Blind-Fighting, Devil's Sight and Moon Druids (and Druids in general) and of course, AOE like Fireball, Web, etc. doesn't require Line of Sight. Also, you'll have to decide if Restrained affects Somatics or not; if it doesn't, things like Web, Earthen Grasp, Constrictor Snake, etc. are really pretty bad since casters mostly ignore the effects and martials don't really matter. I personally prefer it affecting Somatics; makes it more in line with Silence, restricting spellcasting but not preventing it entirely. Still not as strong as Hold Person/Hypnotic Pattern/etc. but at least a viable alternative.

I think Silvery Barbs warrants a ban. It contributes basically nothing and causes a lot of problems. Too much trouble for what it brings to the table (plus getting almost all your checks at advantage due to the incidental extra value from SB is kinda stupid). Divination might not at least in a team fight; it's a trade-off with Initiative boost and defensive benefits from Chronurgist, War Wizard, etc. and some other value abilities, but in a 1v1 it just leads to fairly boring "Okay, I guess I failed vs. your Hypnotic Pattern and you get to prep the field and do everything you want until you're sure you can kill me". Of course, you won't always have low Portent but the whole "You don't get to roll"-mechanic translates poorly to PvP. You could replace it with e.g. a reroll system or the option of using Portent only on yourself.

[Captain Panda]

You REALLY think I'm saying this without those having been in play? Seriously? What do you take my experience for? If you go Shepherd your summons will shrug at SG


Level 5 is the one used here, not 6.



and even without it, about 30-50% will likely survive which is still enough to kill many PCs or at least to deal fatal damage enabling a finisher. They might even kill the Cleric before it gets the spell off. So...it really doesn't do enough.


Yeah, it's a soft counter. It shouldn't be as simple as just deleting the signature spell, but it's counterplay. 15 ft. that costs double movement is far from trivial, the odds are they'll have the dash in, taking the damage, and then take it for another round. If you can't deal with them given that? Okay, then you're at a disadvantage. That's fine, it's supposed to be an effective spell, it's their signature move.



As for Counterspell, it:
- Has 60' range.
- Can be Counter-Counterspelled with Mark of the Sentinel.
- Can be avoided with Subtle Spell.
- Can be avoided with anything breaking line of sight or effect.


Okay? Yeah, that's a normal range for a spell. Mark of the Sentinel? If we assume the druid is going to use his only other spell slot on it? Sure.

Subtle spell? We're talking about a level 5 druid.

Breaking line of sight does work, and it should. Counterplay.



As for high AC, a substantial portion of the options have +5-+6 to hit (Giant Poisonous Snake, all Cow variants, Flying Snake, Elk, etc.) and it's possible to get advantage through a plethora of ways.


I mean if we're assuming that the druid is getting to pick, yeah, it's much stronger. Not unbeatable, but better. Now you're assuming a teammate gives advantage to the things somehow, which is unjustified.



Anything short of 20 AC + Shield-spell does little and that has to go for all characters on the team for the spell to not ravage you. And Shields have to be protected too: if you can murder a PC it's easily worth Counterspelling Shield (which can't be Counter-Counterspelled due to reaction economy and range is not usable either since it's not the murderee's turn). Like I said, I've played tournaments and leagues that allowed it. It's simply a Conjure Animals vs. Anti-Conjure Animals meta and CA still wins more often than not.


It depends on the level. It's a strong spell, and scales extremely well against targets that neglect AC optimization and can't get out of range, but it's not unbeatable.



And no, Druids don't need it to be competitive. Been there seen that too. Druids already have the highest HP total by a vast margin (Moon Wildshape gives you +100 HP if desired), a solid list (e.g. Spike Growth grater is also very strong), and the ability to act as discount martials thanks to Wildshape too.


At level 5 you can wildshape into brown bear or octopus. Far from ideal in a battle against other 5th levels, who will have a really hard time missing an AC that low.



Guess what's the best way to make the caster lose Concentration? Hitting them with a lot of attacks (has the side effect of likely killing them). Best way to accomplish both? Conjure Animals :smallwink: Nothing else gives you 8-16 attacks a turn on this level, let alone ones that can do 3d6+3 damage per hit (Fighters are struggling to get past 2d6+4 and even on a nova turn, 6 attacks is the absolute best they can accomplish). But obviously it having Concentration makes it balanced. Mind, Conjure Animals for CR 1/2, CR 1 and CR 2 is largely fine. It's just the 8 CR 1/4s that's totally broken.

Do you just never play with characters who have decent AC? I view halfplate, a shield, and the Shield spell to be the minimum I'll accept on most characters.

[Captain Panda]

Druids usually have AC 16.

There are ways to get that higher, but that's one of the reasons I've cooled off on druids in recent years. They're still great, but it's hard (not impossible, but harder) to really get their AC high.

Another reason Conjure Animals isn't so strong it needs to be banned. Hit the druid hard and they go away.

[Eldariel]

Level 5 is the one used here, not 6.

Bear Totem.


Yeah, it's a soft counter. It shouldn't be as simple as just deleting the signature spell, but it's counterplay. 15 ft. that costs double movement is far from trivial, the odds are they'll have the dash in, taking the damage, and then take it for another round. If you can't deal with them given that? Okay, then you're at a disadvantage. That's fine, it's supposed to be an effective spell, it's their signature move.

It's not effective enough. Seriously, try a Cleric vs. Druid fight on 5 sometimes.


Okay? Yeah, that's a normal range for a spell. Mark of the Sentinel? If we assume the druid is going to use his only other spell slot on it? Sure.

Why wouldn't they? It's a duel or a small team match or a battle royale, if they resolve Conjure Animals they more or less win (or at least have a massive advantage; I guess you can technically roll 1s for the rest of the fight and succeed but you're more likely to win lottery so that doesn't really matter). Hell, it's good enough to beat multiple parties without it. In a level 6 PHB tourney, a random Conjure Animals party won a 4v4v4 that turned into 8v4; Dragon Sorc, Lore Bard (with CA), Moon Druid, Devotion Paladin archer vs. Barb/Sorc/Clr/Valor Bard & Barb/Wiz/Clr/Valor Bard. CAs just rolled over the other parties in spite of Fireballs and SGs (a total of 6 castings went a long way and Concentration being safeguarded by the Paladin that could also make the Clerics drop the SGs - but the animals destroyed enemy Wiz/Sorc first).


Subtle spell? We're talking about a level 5 druid.

Metamagic Adept exists and is not a bad pick if you picked a feat race.


Breaking line of sight does work, and it should. Counterplay.

And this is the problem, Counterspell is terrible vs. Conjure Animals which can be cast from anywhere and have its effect. You don't need LoE/LoS for Conjure Animals to be effective. Counterspell is good vs. spells like Hold Person or if you can get in there, Hypnotic Pattern and such. Spells that need sight of the target and have shortish range. Conjure Animal ticks none of those. Hypnotic Pattern vs. Counterspell is "counterplay"ish: you can try to skirt the edges of the area and perhaps cast it without direct LoS. But Conjure Animals? It literally doesn't matter where you cast it from. Then you just proceed to murderize enemies.


I mean if we're assuming that the druid is getting to pick, yeah, it's much stronger. Not unbeatable, but better. Now you're assuming a teammate gives advantage to the things somehow, which is unjustified.

I mean that's literally what you do: you build a party that can CA and try a CC spell or something and then you proceed to murder to target. Hell, you can use Kobold to give advantage as a bonus action yourself if you really want to.


It depends on the level. It's a strong spell, and scales extremely well against targets that neglect AC optimization and can't get out of range, but it's not unbeatable.

No, it beats AC optimization every day of the week because it's broken. And AC optimization is pretty useless otherwise since all the top characters cast 3rd level spells and thus your saves are frankly more important meaning the opportunity cost is huge.


At level 5 you can wildshape into brown bear or octopus. Far from ideal in a battle against other 5th levels, who will have a really hard time missing an AC that low.

You really think anyone actually brings a physical attacker to a level 5 arena? They just get murdered by any CC spell. Casters can use attack rolls or save-or-damage effects, so your AC isn't that big of a deal. Wildshape makes you take more damage from enemy summons but that doesn't really matter. Really, HP are the best defense and Druids get the most HP.


Do you just never play with characters who have decent AC? I view halfplate, a shield, and the Shield spell to be the minimum I'll accept on most characters.

And like I said, that doesn't suffice because the Shield-spell can be negated unless you have like Subtle Spell to protect it (in which case you have to use your Reaction and a Sorc Point on it meaning you can't Counterspell whatever else enemy is gonna do to you). Also, it's not easy in this rule set: remember that to be competitive you need to be single-classed. Otherwise you won't have 3rd level spells known, which as we've comprehensively covered here, are way better than anything else you can be doing - multiclass builds just aren't competitive. This means that Armor + Shield + Shield-spell requires either:
1. Investing both your race and feat towards it on a Wizard/Sorcerer.
2. Getting Shield from a feat/race on a Cleric.
3. Playing a Warlock (who only gets two spell slots meaning they're dry after round 1 action + reaction).
4. Getting Shield from a source and armor with a feat on Bard.

1 and 4 are pretty bad because it means you put all your resources into AC leaving you with no special tools for Initiative and against casters (Alert, Lucky, Metamagic Adept, Res: X, Harengon, Fey-Touched/Strixhaven Initiate, etc.), which are the most dangerous opponents. 2 is fine but that's still one of your two (race and 4th ASI) resources put towards not improving your anti-caster game and your teammates need to be similarly durable to not just leave you dying alone. 3 sucks unless Warlocks get houseruled extra slots since their Shield takes a 3rd level slot meaning that's one less Counterspell or Summon X or Hypnotic Pattern or whatever they are casting.

So this baseline is generally just impossible to fit into a build that's competitive in a level 5 arena aside from Clerics. And even that baseline is murderable with Conjure Animals: you just need to abuse the fact that they can't use their reaction on anything useful the turn they are casting Shield.

[follacchioso]

Do you just never play with characters who have decent AC? I view halfplate, a shield, and the Shield spell to be the minimum I'll accept on most characters.Remember that Shield has V,S components, so in order to cast it you need to either have a free hand or have warcaster.
This is purposely to avoid the situation where a character uses a shield and casts the Shield spell, getting high AC.
If the PvP arena is at lv5, very few characters are going to have Warcaster and shield proficiency. Even if they have, a skilled opponent can just use Hold Person or any other Wis based spell, Heat Metal, and so on.



Any suggestions / advice for rules or whatever to keep things enjoyable and fair?
I play PvP arenas pretty extensively (mainly on Discord), and these are my suggestions:

- As other said, it is important that rules are applied as RAW, otherwise it is not fair to everybody

- Limit the amount of Magic Items to the minimum, as they can easily unbalance a fight

- Regarding Conjure Animals and similar spells/items, we ruled that the conjured creatures appear in random spaces within range, unless the spell conjures only one creature. This is because people conjured creatures around an opponent, to surround them.

- 90% of the fight will be people chasing each other around on the battlefield. Thus, the size of the arena has a big impact on the outcome. Small arenas will favour melee fighters, while large arenas will favour ranged attackers. So you need to find a good compromise. The arena should also have a few elevated areas, so agile characters can climb up and use their mobility skills.

- Moon druids are strong, but most times people will form coalitions against them, so they will likely be knocked out before the last round.

- Balance also depends on whether you allow short rests before fights. Wizards and spellcasters will likely prevail on single fights, but they will not be able to win multiple fights without rests.

[tKUUNK]

Honestly the key to fun PvP is everyone agreeing to KEEP IT FUN. Keep the stakes low and enjoy yourselves.

Winning is great, and he who laughs is winning.

Top prizes are not just for victory, but for things like:

- Most Hilarious Death
- Worst Luck
- Best One-Liner, Mid-Fight
- "That Should Never Have Worked" (Best Luck)
- Playing a Ranger. Like, at all.

Nominate winners, then take a quick vote. Roll dice to break ties.

[quindraco]

As for Counterspell, it:
- Has 60' range.
- Can be Counter-Counterspelled with Mark of the Sentinel.
- Can be avoided with Subtle Spell.
- Can be avoided with anything breaking line of sight or effect.

Subtle Spell won't protect a spell with an M component from Counterspell in the slightest.

[Eldariel]

Subtle Spell won't protect a spell with an M component from Counterspell in the slightest.

Fair. 10 letters.

[RSP]

Subtle Spell won't protect a spell with an M component from Counterspell in the slightest.

Don’t want to derail the thread but this isn’t necessarily true. RAW you see someone holding a focus or using a component pouch, but if the focus is a staff that’s always being held, then you just see someone holding a staff.

Metagame hearing the other Player say “I cast a spell” would work; though, I guess that works against Subtle spell too.

Good to spell out the rules on what works for Counterspell and Subtle.

And how the Metagame of (I assume) both Players being in the same room.

[da newt]

Honestly the key to fun PvP is everyone agreeing to KEEP IT FUN. Keep the stakes low and enjoy yourselves.

Winning is great, and he who laughs is winning.

Top prizes are not just for victory, but for things like:

- Most Hilarious Death
- Worst Luck
- Best One-Liner, Mid-Fight
- "That Should Never Have Worked" (Best Luck)
- Playing a Ranger. Like, at all.

Nominate winners, then take a quick vote. Roll dice to break ties.

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[MrStabby]

Cleric casts Spirit Guardians. Animals are in trouble.

Wizard casts Counterspell. Animals don't pop out.

Target is built for high AC, animals whiff a lot more than they hit and aren't that great (especially if they are random and not the most optimal choice).

If you're not allowing Conjure Animals, just don't allow druids. Frankly, if you ban Conjure Animals and the druid loses it doesn't even count, it wasn't a real match.

If playing a cleric, I think that silence is often the better spell to deal with this. Just stop the animals recieving instructions. The spell requires verbal instructons - not telepathy, not gestures... specifically verbal.

This actually makes me thing a shadowmonk might be playable if its a no magic item game. Combination of relatively high damage output from monks early on, silence to shut down a few problem spells, and the opportunity cost of picking up proficiency in con saves being pretty high.


If you are worried about some strategies lacking in fun (like flying out of range and just shooting a bow, you could run a king of the hill type tournament - two min duration and the team that has the most rounds being the ones sat on top of the objective wins.

[greenstone]

The biggest impact conjured animals will have in an arena is mobility control.

Surround a foe with 8 animals and they just aren't moving anywhere for a round or two (or maybe more). Any ranged attack they make is also now at disadvantage.

If all 8 animals try to knock the foe prone, or half of them help the other half grapple the foe, mobility is reduced even further.

If that foe doesn't have something like misty step then they are stuck there until they have dealt with the animals, while the other team gets free reign with movement and ranged attacks.

[animorte]

If you are worried about some strategies lacking in fun (like flying out of range and just shooting a bow, you could run a king of the hill type tournament - two min duration and the team that has the most rounds being the ones sat on top of the objective wins.

Bring in that difficult terrain and no-save battlefield control. Might even pop an illusion to misdirect where the "hill" actually is.

[Eldariel]

Quick damage benchmarking that I did for another arena, which might be of interest to you as well:
- Action Surging Fighting Spirit Archery Sharpshooter Samurai 5 with 18 Dex does:
57,75 DPR vs. AC 15
34 DPR vs. AC 20
16,63 DPR vs. AC 25
- Battlemaster will do a bit more than that and can use Crossbow Expert, but the math is really annoying to do so not going there. GWM melee build will hit about the same notes, not worth the effort to calculate separately.
- Cleric 5 with 18 Wis (DC 15) Spirit Guardians + Telekinetic on R1 vs. +4 Wis, +1 Str does:
16,5 DPR (10 from Spirit Guardians, 6,5 from Telekinetic) on R1.
- Death Cleric 5 with level 3 Inflict and Touch of Death will do [Advantage/Normal]:
39,975/29 DPR vs. AC 15
29,88185/18,375 DPR vs. AC 20
14,475/7,75 DPR vs. AC 25
- You can combine the aforementioned on R2+ for a total of ~45 DPR vs. AC 15, 35 DPR vs. AC 20 and 24 DPR vs. AC 25.
- Moon Druid 2/Fighter 2/War Cleric 1 in Brown Bear form can do:
31,5 DPR vs. AC 15
19 DPR vs. AC 20
6,5 DPR vs. AC 25 [though if you had a way to generate advantage you'd be closer to Samurai's numbers]
- Above in Deinonychus form would probably do marginally more especially if instead of War Cleric using something like Hex but conditional probability for Pounce is annoying. Low end:
32,4 DPR vs. AC 15
17,4 DPR vs. AC 20
5,4 DPR vs. AC 25


High end (advantage immediately):
49,68 DPR vs. AC 15
30,93 DPR vs. AC 20
10,53 DPR vs. AC 25

- Moorbounder:
26,7 DPR vs. AC 15
16,2 DPR vs. AC 20
5,7 DPR vs. AC 25

- Aasimar Sorcerer with 18 Cha with Radiant Consumption + Quicken Empower Fireball will do:
34 DPR for Empowered Fireball with +4 Cha and 5 damage for Radiant (save DC 15, assume Dex +2) for 39 DPR total:
32,1 DPR vs. Dex +2
- Stars Druid at 18 Wis with Conjure Animals for two Brown Bears followed by Archer constellation:
24,55+5,75=30,3 DPR vs. AC 15
14,8+3,625=18,425 DPR vs. AC 20
5,05+1,5 DPR=6,55 vs. AC 25
- Kobold Druid with Conjure Animals for two Brown Bears followed by Draconic Cry (R2+ could have the Kobold turn into a Bear and then three Bear Beatdown for about 50% more, putting those stats in parentheses):
35 [52,5] DPR vs. AC 15
25 [37] DPR vs. AC 20
10 [14] vs. AC 25
- Sorlock (Genie) with 18 Cha using Eldritch Blast + Quicken Eldritch Blast [Advantage/Normal]:
39,378/29,513 vs. AC 15
30,43/19,73 vs. AC 20
16,1/9,3 vs. AC 25
- Daolock 3/Sorc 2 with Metamagic Adept and 16 Cha using Quickened Spike Growth + Eldritch Blast with Grasp of Hadar + Repelling Blast (misses out on Agonizing Blast, but it's probably correct as grater does more damage and keeps enemy in Spike Growth):
21,385 vs. AC 15
14,01 vs. AC 20
5,5725 vs. AC 25
8 Cows [Advantage/Normal] (not doing Elks because conditional probability on their charge prone effect is a PiTA; but they'd do more than Normal and less than Advantageous Cows):
105,63/73,8 vs. AC 15
75,18/44,8 vs. AC 20
30,23/15,8 vs. AC 25

8 Giant Poisonous Snakes vs. +2 Con (Blindsight so advantage actually quite realistic even without MPMM Kobold Advantage):
123,16/85,955 vs. AC 15
87,8/52,28 vs. AC 20
35,6/18,605 vs. AC 25

8 Velociraptors (Pack Tactics so always advantage):
64,6 vs. AC 15
39,68 vs. AC 20
12,48 vs. AC 25

Given HPs at 14 Con and averages are Barb: 50, Fighter: 44, Cleric: 38, Wizard: 32, PCs are one-shottable at a weak defense except by CA for 8 creatures, which goes through fairly substantial defenses for more than enough. Given the restrictions, as shown in the "2 Brown Bear Stars Druid", with the changes it's in line with other options (Kobold Moon Druid 5 could do significantly more at 3 Brown Bears or Deinonychus with advantage though).