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View Full Version : Telekinesis. Is it Good yet? (Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2022-06-26, 11:18 PM
Preamble: Man. It's been a long, long time since I first reviewed the Telekinesis sphere (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622974-Flipping-the-Table-(Spheres-in-Review)&p=24820498). Literally about 2 years. (Wow... I really don't have a life, do I?) Oh boy, does that review look bad. I also hated the sphere to my core. It was so thoroughly disappointing. Granted, a lot of my complaints were perfectly valid, from memory. But perhaps now that there's been 2 years of content, and I am perhaps in a slightly different state of mind... perhaps I could see a good use for the sphere.

Post-Review Analysis: OK. Fine. It's garbage. It's worthless. It's totally redeemable. I'm going to make my own telekinesis sphere. With blackjack.
But the talents do actually improve the sphere... if you somehow have managed to find all 500 of them, and then supplemented them with Spheres of Might talents and feats requisite for making your tactics actually work!
It also only got 2 new talents in the past 2 years. Not even the designers like telekinesis.

Flex Talents: Apparently I've not really found any that are worth flexing into.

Maximize Caster Level: Absolutely. This sphere does not survive on less than two CL per level.


(1) Superb: You always want this if it's relevant to you. And it probably is.
(1.5) Really Good: Particularly useful bits of kit, but aren't quite must-haves. (Kept it decimal, because spreading out Good so far from Superb felt unrepresentative. But I needed a step between)
(2) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds. Among your first picks.
(3) Usable: Doesn't hurt to have. Wouldn't go out of your way for it.

(4) No: It technically has a use, but the cost to take simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.
(5) Never: There’s no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.
(6+) Harmful: Taking/using this is actively detrimental to your character.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign you’re playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(?) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or it’s far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.

Telekinesis Lift (4): Still have to wait until 3rd level (or spend another talent + spell point) to have the equivalent of Mage Hand. Alright. That's bad. If you want to use telekinesis directly on creatures, you must wait until at least 5th level to then be able to spend a spell point to affect a singular person. So. Yeah. That's still about as disappointing as I remember.

Telekinesis Speed (3): You can move things held in telekinesis up to 20 + (caster level) feet, as a standard action. Bad if you plan to do stuff from range with weapons you have on you. But otherwise probably not going to be too impactful. It being restricted to close range (25 + 5 / 2 levels) is a bit more likely to be impactful.

Bludgeon (3) The cool thing here is that the bludgeon can make use of Combat Talents, as though they were ranged and weapon attacks. I'm having a really difficult time figuring out what weapons would be superior to use via bludgeon rather than... like... shot or thrown. But it would allow you to Snipe with a sword, which is cool... for about the first time you do it. And it would take a good few levels before you get to do it with anything as beefy as a sword. But you can use a 1d4 dagger... Alright, I'm really trying to stay positive. I really am.
But, at as low as level 5, you can now lift someone up. And then beat one of them against the other... dealing 1d6 to the both of them. On a failed will save. And then full-AC ranged attack. That cost a spell point. Destruction sphere could have done 5d6 damage for a touch attack and no save.
But you can't add the massive amounts of rider effect talents (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646139-A-list-of-SoM-attack-rider-effects) to that blast. Which... granted. Do take more talents than the literal 1 that Destruction sphere would take. But the open possibility for [random nonsense talent/feat here] is probably why the base capabilities are so pathetic.
Also no idea how it works with Barroom scaling the damage of improvised weapons.

Catch (6):OK. OK. Stops a mundane ranged attack within your size limit from dealing damage. Nice! Arrows are probably there from level 1. Daggers too! You might even be able to stop a catapult shot by level 8 to 11.... but... they get a will save to negate this. And you needed to ready an action... what?
"OK, after spending your entire turn defensively preparing to stop the archer from sniping your dying friend, he looks at you, noting your action. And snipes anyway! You reach out with your telekinesis, and you've got a hold on it. Then the archer just gives you a mean look, succeeding his will save. You failed to save Will. Too bad the archer was on like... 5 hp. If you just blasted him, it probably would have stopped the attack with no save."

Hostile Lift (?): Spell point to affect unwilling creatures. A will save initially, and then a will save each additional round. Granted, this is basically Sleep for melees. But useless against basically every other type of enemy. But that's a reasonably large chunk of the monster base... not of such small sizes. Most things of the sizes you can lift have flight, meaning you are doing nothing more than immobilizing it. Destructive Blast with one of the immobilizing blast types... you know? If you immobilize melees, they are also unable to do anything as well. Destructive Blast is so good! And it does damage. Man. Really selling me on Destruction sphere.

Sustained Force (1): Spell point to allow the lifting to to persist for (CL) minutes without concentration, and following your simple orders. Unironically really useful. Not for combat, explicitly. Except for Hostile Lift, which explicitly is an exception to that explicit exception.
But for... spending a spell point on just having things hover around you. Which I'm just going to say is neat.


So. yeah. The Base Sphere is... trash. An unironic dumpster fire. I don't think I was being hyperbolic in my initial impressions. This is not a sphere that can stand on its base sphere alone. The base sphere is in desperate need of a rebalance. (Know what? I think I might just do that, when I get done with this.)
But I'm pretty sure the talents can save it.

I like the category breakdowns of the talents. Just not the execution. So let's use those.

Powerful Telekinesis (1+): Absolutely mandatory to even get cantrip-level capability before level 3.

Divided Mind (1): You get to lift an additional (CL) items at once (so long as the combined size, however that's measured, doesn't exceed your max). Which is neat for playing around. The size limits basically negate any combat effectiveness. Except that it has specific interaction with the TK maneuver talents, hitting an additional talent per 2 CL for 1 SP. Which is not exceptional from a Spheres of Power stand point. But I do imagine that a Spheres of Might character would love to be able to affect 6 people with a single maneuver by level 10.

Telekinetic Tools (1.5, F): Telekinesis mimics tools. Gets rid of penalties with Finesse, generates unbreakable rope with Maneuver (through grapple... which... ok, impractical), and can immediately conjure bludgeons of any weapon you are proficient with, up to the size you can wield. The last one obviates the need for Greater Speed for your Bludgeon. Unless you're going for the AoO approach, as it's "treated as" a weapon, rather than actually being such. Thus may or may not threaten. This has never really been particularly clear. lol.

Flight (2): Absolutely mandatory to take Greater Speed along with this (though... maybe it would be an acceptable speed, by the time you can lift your friends). But now you grant perfect flight to anyone for 1 minute / level. And with the (rightful) nerfs to the Alteration flight speeds, this is very comparable, and gets pretty good with Greater Speed.


Greater Speed (4): As mentioned, next to meaningless. But becomes better if you are actually using weaponry you keep on your person as your means of attack, or want to use Flight.

Gravity Shift (4): Assuming you have Easy Concentration, you can cast this as a standard, concentrate as a move action next turn, and then lift anyone as though they were one category smaller... in a 10 ft radius. Probably 15 ft by the time this is at all meaningful. And the location doesn't move after you cast it. But, you can combine it with Flight to be able to lift them, and grant them fly speed earlier than you'd normally be able to, with no additional spell points used. And this explicitly stacks with similar gravity, so there's no reason why it wouldn't stack with Enhancement sphere's Lighten. But, again, due to the limited area, it's not exactly broadly useful. Flight's literally the one thing that I can think of that makes meaningful use out of it. I mean... I guess for dungeon crawling, it would be easier to catch everything in your area. And the +2 to attacks (while also applying to enemies), would improve your effective CMB.

Idle Concentration (5): I literally can't think through all the copium as to how to make this useful. But it does confirm that Dancing Weapons probably threaten, normally.

Finesse (F): Adds complicated, non-combat procedures to telekinesis's sustained force, and "fine manipulation." Really fine, actually, considering it includes the use of Disable Device at range. But at a stiff -5 penalty. Most of this stuff is... inconsequential. But may be fun to play around with.

Whirlwind Assembly (F): Don/doff armor as a swift action? Cool. Entirely change outfits as a swift action? Cool. Call your lightsaber over as a swift action? I mean. Sure, I guess. Why not just wield it? And you get to reload a weapon 1 standard action faster, using a swift action. Which tends to mean you reload as a swift action. Which is still generally undesirable.

Finesse (F): Adds complicated, non-combat procedures to telekinesis's sustained force, and "fine manipulation." Really fine, actually, considering it includes the use of Disable Device at range. But at a stiff -5 penalty. Most of this stuff is... inconsequential. But may be fun to play around with.

Kinetic Sense (F): 30ft blindsense for 1 minute, for a spell point. Also you can use TK without line of sight. (And without line of effect, as well, presumably. Might actually have a use for like... opening doors from the inside. There are easier ways than this. But still.

Orbit (F): Does basically nothing for you. It's like extra dimensional space. But people can just pluck it from your orbit whenever they feel like it. And the limit of the orbiting masses is your size limit. So pretty bloody small.


Telekinetic Maneuver (1): Grants access to bull rush, drag, reposition, trip, dirty trick, and grapple, all using Telekinesis CMB (CL + CAM). Downside? On discord, the devs have stated that this CMB does not get affected by feats that improve any specific applications of this, due to being able to increase the CL so readily. But that's not on the wiki. No notes have been officially made on the matter.

Forceful Telekinesis (1.5): +1 to size of bludgeons for damage. But more importantly, maneuvers get a +2 to CMB with this sphere. You desperately need every bonus you can get, if you want to make them work.

Steal (?): Focused on the Steal maneuver, which was seemingly intentionally made useless. You positively require Scoundrel sphere's Master Thief to begin contemplating using it. And even then.... not generally a combat-useful maneuver. Best you can hope for is a wizard that needs spell components. But you get to also Sleight of Hand at range... which... I mean... pick pocketing doesn't actually accomplish much for adventurers. But it's very safe, if you don't have revealing casting traditions.

Excessive Force (1): Assume that you are at a level in which you can actually lift creatures. They fail a will save. And then you make an attack roll against someone else. They both take 1d6 / 2 CL, and save or fall prone. Between the two of them, that's the same damage as a Destructive Blast. Plus, it's whatever rider damage you managed to add onto the attack, to both of them.

Acceleration (2): Lets your bludgeons charge, gaining use of charge-based feats and talents. Which is entirely unique with regards to ranged weapons. I mean, using Sniper sphere, and also charging... which... I mean, I do remember at least 2 charge-related talents. Probably from Brute. And vaguely remember a feat that quadruples the damage when charging while mounted. Guess what? You can charge while mounted without moving! Even very small lances would probably be fine with that. I'm sure this is a solid Good.

Dancing Weapon (2): You get to add CAM to your damage. Which can be worth upwards of two +1 damage enchantment. And you get to pick between melee, thrown, and ranged for it to count as. You'll probably only ever pick exactly one, and build around specifically that, unless you're flexing talents hard. Oh, and they...maybe threaten. You at least count as wielding them for the purpose of AoOs. Which sounds like they threaten. That can give massive area coverage with divided mind. Oh, and you can flank by yourself, with this. So that's cool. (Note: Idle Concentration very much implies that they normally threaten, when not idle.) And maybe you can use like a Gauntlet, or whatever, and be able to project Shove from Brute sphere through that. Who knows.

Mobile Bludgeon (2): The explicitly required for Dancing Weapon to get multiple attacks with a singular weapon...scaling on BAB. But not the point. In fact, its namesake effect of getting to attack and then run away... is fairly... incidental for a weapon. But you can make additional attacks using *talents.* This includes Barrage and Dual Wielding. Where the heck you're going to get all the bloody talents to make this nonsense work? Why are you barraging using this instead of just.... barrage directly? Who knows! But you get to! A barrage of (a single) teeny tiny lance! I'm not going crazy, you're going crazy!

Homing (3): On a miss, spend a spell point to make it try and it it again, once each round. Including presumably the round it missed. Generally uneventful. But you can really bugger someone with divided mind, focusing on tripping this one guy. Over, and over again.

Sweeping Bludgeons (?): I spent way too much time on this. There's presumably some monster which has ridiculous AC, but horrible reflex. This is not an AoE effect. It's still single target. Also the example lists barrage as simultaneously explicitly not applicable and applicable at a penalty, at the same time. I may just be getting exhausted by this sphere. But I have no idea what it's trying to say there.


Pantomime Cage (1): Reflex save or become "trapped." Which literally has the target treated as though everyone else has full cover. And everyone else treats it as though it had full cover. There's a save every round, but it's a full round action, and basically takes them out of relevance until they pass the save, and you only spend 1 spell point, instead of the 2 it would take to lift them, and it's useful against every enemy. Unless they have really good reflex saves.

Gravity Ward/Well (3): Combat maneuvers can get damned near impossible as you progress in CR. But humanoids consistently have low CMB. And they need CMB to move out / in to the areas you create. The one problem? Your allies also tend to be humanoids with low CMB. But that can be good, because only unwilling targets are subject to the CM check to drag them (everyone/thing else is presumably automatically drawn as far as can be). Which is probably available a lot quicker than you being able to lift them out of tricky situations. Granted.... you drag them 10 feet. But it is 10 feet. They can then run, rather than disengage.

Dampening Field (5): Grants an absolutely insignificant bonus to defenses of things you telekinetically lift.

Kinetic Field (5): Sigh. I am really trying to make this decent. But it's not. There are much better wall or fog talents that cut off ranged attacks. Creation sphere, with 1 talent, does this without a save. The creature pushing thing is... not reliable, due to having -1 to your effective telekinesis size. And even in trying to cheese it by taking this twice, so that you have an area centered on and moving with you... it's still at half the speed of Flight, and costs double the spell points. And it's less effective than Gravity Ward. But more Friendly. It's like a 1-way gravity ward.

Return (5): Requires use of Catch. Not "augmented" by Quick Reactions. Then you can "fling it back"... but instead it is a bludgeon attack. Which might not reach them. And even if it can reach them, it not guaranteed to have the speed to reach them. Depending on where you caught it. But why wouldn't you catch it immediately as it got into range? OK, probably has the speed.

Telekinetic Push (5): Aid Other, the spell. As a readied action. (Unironically, increasing a weapon's range increment by half of telekinesis speed is kinda cool. Not useful. Cool. At best, it would be something you'd hire an NPC to do for you.)

Telekinetic Crush (6): Unironically worthless. Just take Excessive Force, and shove them into a bloody wall or something.

Quick Reactions (8): Spell point to use Catch as an immediate action. Catch is garbage. So Push? Well, all of push's effects are freaking garbage. Even the one that upgrades Catch to no longer need a will save.... because it adds yet another spell point to the effect. Yeah. I'm a little upset.

Rynjin
2022-06-26, 11:22 PM
I think the only primary issue Telekinesis has is how ludicrously small the initial weights you get to lift are and how slowly they advance. This singular major flaw completely cripples the Sphere.

Spheres 5e actually recognizes this issue and solves it to an extent, and it's much more satisfying to play with as a result. I'll probably end up backporting the base functionality of the Sphere to my Pathfinder games next I run one.

SangoProduction
2022-06-26, 11:27 PM
I think the only primary issue Telekinesis has is how ludicrously small the initial weights you get to lift are and how slowly they advance. This singular major flaw completely cripples the Sphere.

Spheres 5e actually recognizes this issue and solves it to an extent, and it's much more satisfying to play with as a result. I'll probably end up backporting the base functionality of the Sphere to my Pathfinder games next I run one.

Well. OK. Wow. That was so dang close to what I was writing for my revision for the telekinesis sphere. Like holy butterballs Batman. I would have looked like a plagiarist if I actually posted it. I mean, it's missing the packaging up of the fun stuff so that it's more generally available at lower cost.

Now I know about it, and rather than calling it a revision, I'll call it a backport. And now I am perfectly legit.

I actually really kind of like the 5e telekinesis sphere.

Logalmier
2022-06-27, 12:30 AM
I think telekinesis suffers from a couple of problems from a design standpoint. One is that it's a convoluted mess of ambiguous wording and superfluous talents such that literally no one knows how it actually works. If you overlook that and find a way to make it work anyways, you end up with aggressively subpar bludgeons, or oppressive remote gargantuan butchering axe patrol shenanigans. Given how popular telekenisis is as a concept, and given how terrible this sphere is, yeah it really needs to be reworked with an eye towards simplicity. Make things clearer, make things cost less talents, and ban butchering axes from your games.