[3.5] Summon Poisonous Toad

[Thurbane]

Maybe more of a home brew question, but...

If one of my players wants to have a Fiendish Poisonous Toad (OA p.197) on their Summon Monster list, what level Summons would you peg it as?

Medium size, 2HD, poison (unconscious/3d6 Con), improved grab, swallow whole, plus stuff from Fiendish.

Cheers - T

[redking]

Dragon Magazine had an article about alternate summons lists. Someone can come in and give you the issue number. Since you already mentioned homebrew, I am going to assume that dragon magazine is acceptable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's in line with the fiendish wolf, medium scorpion or celestial riding dog, so i'd add it to SM2.
The powerful poison makes it one of the stronger options for the level but the lower combat stats make up for it so i don't think it's good enough to push it to SM3.

[Gorthawar]

It's in line with the fiendish wolf, medium scorpion or celestial riding dog, so i'd add it to SM2.
The powerful poison makes it one of the stronger options for the level but the lower combat stats make up for it so i don't think it's good enough to push it to SM3.

I'd argue for SM3. All of the SM2 monsters are CR1 before the addition of the celestial/ fiendish template while the toad is CR2 in line with the dire badger, bear and hippogriff on the SM3 list.

You'd summon it for it's special abilities anyways and not for it's melee prowess. Would you allow the harvesting of it's poison? That might or might not become an issue.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Unearthed Arcana gave us a list of power levels for summoned monsters. Juste use it.

1: 1/2 or less
2: 1
3: 2
4: 3-4
5: 5-6
6: 7-8
7: 9-10
8: 11-12
9: 13-14

The poisonous toad is CR 2, so it should be in SM3

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd argue for SM3. All of the SM2 monsters are CR1 before the addition of the celestial/ fiendish template while the toad is CR2 in line with the dire badger, bear and hippogriff on the SM3 list.

You'd summon it for it's special abilities anyways and not for it's melee prowess. Would you allow the harvesting of it's poison? That might or might not become an issue.

I'm basing it on the toads stats, not CR, which are definitely not in line with a dire badger or hippogriff.
If you add it to SM3 it'd compete against the huge monstrous centipede and large viper, both of which have much better combat stats that more than make up for less poison damage.

The toads poison is strong, but it's not that much better imo. It'd be one of the weaker options for that spell level.

As for harvesting it's poison that won't be an issue at low levels since the Bestow Venom trick takes 1 minute and summons only last 1 round/level.
And even once your summons last that long it still takes craft:poisonmaking to make usable poison out of it, so i don't think that should factor into the decision which level of summon spell to add it to.

[Zanos]

The poison isn't that much better? If the OP is correct, it's a save or die. SM3 seems fine to me.

[Bullet06320]

"The Summoner's Circle" article in Drag 302 pg 24

[Fizban]

The Poison spell is 4th level, and Deep Slumber at 3rd still has a HD limit attached. Since this is being added to a multi-function list, it should be at least 1 level higher than the comparable spells, which would put it at 5th.

SM lists already have poisoners, however, so maybe we waive that. The OA poison toad has DC 13 for unconcious/3d6 con damage, which is far better than the creatures on the SM3 or even SM4 lists, which deal 1d6-1d8 ability damage and require SM4 for DCs of 13-14- though the toad also has only a +1 attack bonus and 20' speed, so its ability to deliver that poison or be of use without it is much weaker. It also needs a ruling on how long that unconsciousness lasts.

I would say it could go on SM3 (in place of an existing poisoner) thanks to the tradeoff, but it's too specialized: rather than being a poisonous combat creature, it's actually an expanded "non-combat" utility (quickly knocking out and/or killing restrained/"willing" creatures) that simply doesn't exist on the list at that level. I'd have expected this to be an attempt to sneak in something that says you can use it to poison your weapons, but I checked the entry and it has no such stated advantage. I'm also pretty sure I've read this exchange before, though possibly with a different creature.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm leaning towards Summon Monster III, and I'll see if I can track down a copy of the Dragon article.

[Ramza00]

Dragon Magazine had an article about alternate summons lists. Someone can come in and give you the issue number. Since you already mentioned homebrew, I am going to assume that dragon magazine is acceptable.

Dragon 302. Orbitalflower did a few good 3.5 lists a few years back chronicling the Extended summon monster list for D&D 3.5 from various sources, but also a similar article for extended 3.5 familiar options.

So yeah what Bullet06320 said.