How many spells should a high-level wizard know?

[JPhil]

I realize this is a totally subjective question, but I'm just wondering what is average from your experiences and campaigns. For sake of comparison, let's say a lvl 15 wizards, no school of specialization, giving up to 8th level spells. I know the standard rule is +2 spells per level, but I'm more so wondering how you manage number of spells and spell acquisition throughout the campaign, and how many spells your wizards typically have in their spell-book per level.

Thanks!

[Tzardok]

For every spell added beyond those gained through level, I would reduce the character's wealth by the price of that spell on a scroll.

[Melcar]

I realize this is a totally subjective question, but I'm just wondering what is average from your experiences and campaigns. For sake of comparison, let's say a lvl 15 wizards, no school of specialization, giving up to 8th level spells. I know the standard rule is +2 spells per level, but I'm more so wondering how you manage number of spells and spell acquisition throughout the campaign, and how many spells your wizards typically have in their spell-book per level.

Thanks!

Away from my PC atm, but my level 33 wizard knows around 30 spells of each level… so somewhere around 300 different spells!

EDIT: Ok, so I checked, my level 33 wizard has 316 spells in his spellbook - a large grimoire (pages are A3 size) bound in mithral. It worth a total of 677.700gp, that includes, 139.600gp cost of inscription, 429.000gp worth of value if all spells were bought as scrolls, and 108.000gp for construction plus guards, wards and other magical protections!

[sleepyphoenixx]

At least 5 per level, usually more if you have time to scribe since most levels have more good spells than that and copying from other wizards spellbooks is cheap enough that you can afford to pick up some more situational spells. Otherwise you may as well play a sorcerer.

A lot also depends on your build, a summoner or Shadowcraft Mage doesn't need as many spells as a buffer or battlefield controller (though there's usually overlap between the roles).
Similarly a wizard with Spontaneous Divination should scribe any divination spell he can to make the most of that ACF.


For every spell added beyond those gained through level, I would reduce the character's wealth by the price of that spell on a scroll.

That doesn't make any sense though since you can copy from another spellbook for a fraction of that price. Or just master a looted spellbook for zero cost.
Counting spellbook value against WBL in general runs into issues like a Blessed Book effectively increasing WBL or punishing a wizard for keeping a backup spellbook.

If you're concerned about balance there are better ways (because wizards are just fine with only their 2 free spells/level, they'll just focus on the most powerful ones).
It just seems needlessly spiteful to punish a player for using his class features as intended.

[Tzardok]

It just seems needlessly spiteful to punish a player for using his class features as intended.

Using the class feature as intended is copying scrolls into your spellbook. So buying additional spells for your book seems to me like the most sensible way of handling it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Using the class feature as intended is copying scrolls into your spellbook. So buying additional spells for your book seems to me like the most sensible way of handling it.

The rules on spellbooks have an entire paragraph dedicated to copying from other wizards spellbooks and what it costs (spell level x 50gp).
Complete Arcane goes out of its way to add the option to master looted spellbooks directly instead of having to copy them spell by spell.

Claiming the most expensive option is the intended one is just disingenious, especially considering that the value of a spellbook is explicitly stated to be 100gp/page.
If you count spellbooks against WBL using that would be sensible (until a player buys a Blessed Book at least).
Counting the value of a scroll the player likely never bought and doesn't have against his WBL isn't.

[Faily]

I mean, it really depends on the campaign and the character. Not all campaigns have spellbooks and scrolls available as loot or for purchase most of the time, making it harder to fill in the spellbook more.

The one character I've played that really had a goal of knowing as much magic as possible (level 15: Wizard 5, Sorcerer 1, Ultimate Magus 9), had a total of 60 spells in her spellbook, not counting cantrips.
1st level - 16 known
2nd level - 12 known
3rd level - 12 known
4th level - 8 known
5th level - 9 known
6th level - 3 known

And on top of that had Sorcerer spells too to supplement her repertoire of spells, totalling to 13 more additional new spells known:
1st level - 4 known (after removing those also in spellbook)
2nd level - 4 known (after removing those also in spellbook)
3rd level - 3 known (after removing those also in spellbook)
4th level - 2 known (after removing those also in spellbook)


I think we were mostly WBL that campaign, and had a decent access to being able to buy scrolls (though no spellbooks found). Was mostly a lack of being able to find the time to scribe in spells.

[Elkad]

All of them? (plus a few to dozens of custom spells of his own)

And no, I don't count spellbook towards WBL. I don't count the Fighter's backup magic morning star, dagger, and arrows either.

[Telonius]

I don't count spells gained at level-up towards WBL. For spells that the Wizard paid to scribe, I do count those. Spells at level-up are a class feature, scribing costs GP, and a found spellbook is worth a whole lot of GP.

[Tzardok]

I don't think anyone claimed that the spells gained through level up should count against WBL, only those gained additionally to those.

[Biggus]

The rules on spellbooks have an entire paragraph dedicated to copying from other wizards spellbooks and what it costs (spell level x 50gp).
Complete Arcane goes out of its way to add the option to master looted spellbooks directly instead of having to copy them spell by spell.

Claiming the most expensive option is the intended one is just disingenious, especially considering that the value of a spellbook is explicitly stated to be 100gp/page.
If you count spellbooks against WBL using that would be sensible (until a player buys a Blessed Book at least).
Counting the value of a scroll the player likely never bought and doesn't have against his WBL isn't.

Very much agree that the default should be the copying cost not the scroll cost. However...


I mean, it really depends on the campaign and the character. Not all campaigns have spellbooks and scrolls available as loot or for purchase most of the time, making it harder to fill in the spellbook more.


...I also agree that it depends on the setting. As well as what Faily says, there's this



This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher-level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether. Wizards friendly to one another often trade access to equal-level spells from each other’s spellbooks at no cost.

which means that lowish-level spells may not need to be paid for, especially if the wizard is part of a magic guild, university or similar, and that high-levels spells may cost extra.


All of them? (plus a few to dozens of custom spells of his own)

And no, I don't count spellbook towards WBL. I don't count the Fighter's backup magic morning star, dagger, and arrows either.

I think you're playing the game rather differently to the rest of us...

[ericgrau]

Typically getting or copying a spellbook gets you a bulk discount that includes a bunch of spells you don't want, while buying scrolls let you choose a la cart. So the actual WBL loss should be somewhere in between. Probably more towards book though as it's going to be the favored choice whenever it's an option.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Very much agree that the default should be the copying cost not the scroll cost. However...
The default value of a spellbook is 100gp/page, no matter how you acquired it. Or do you count scrolls (or other consumables) the player has already expended against WBL too?


I think you're playing the game rather differently to the rest of us...
I don't count spellbooks towards WBL either.
Doing otherwise just pushes players towards certain builds (easy bake wizard, illusion mastery) or getting a Blessed Book (which costs 12500gp no matter how many spells it holds but has up to 100k gp worth of spells).

And differentiating between spells gotten by levelup and spells gotten by scribing just adds needless bookkeeping in addition to making no sense.
Either spells count against WBL or they don't. They're the same once they're in the book no matter where you got them from or how much you paid for them.

[icefractal]

So the free ones are simple enough, but determining the cost of the others is tricky, because of trading spells. Let's consider what conditions would apply to make a given method possible -

Scrolls require that another mage (who wouldn't have to be a Wizard) existed and wrote the scroll, but you never need to have met them.

Buying Spellbooks requires than another Wizard existed, but you don't need to have met them. Bought spellbooks will have some inefficiency though, since you're stuck paying for some spells you didn't want along with the ones you do.

Copying (for money) requires that another Wizard, specifically, was in the same place as you and was willing to sell access. For low-level spells, pretty easy in most settings. For high-level spells, it could be tricky in some settings, and also tricky for any spells that make gold obsolete - why would anyone who knows those sell them for gold in that case?

Spell Trading requires another Wizard in the same place, and that they're interested in some spell you know. That's pretty tricky to estimate, and it's what makes this a hard question to answer. Because depending on interest or lack thereof, you could get between zero and dozens of spells in trade for every spell you have (as the same spell can be traded to multiple people, but if they also trade amongst each-other that diminishes the value for you). And Wizards who scoff at gold may still be interested in this.

In practical terms, if GMing, I'd count the standard copying fee against WBL (and inscribing, but there's things like Blessed Books and Secret Page for that), as it's a simple and not onerous standard. But it's too bad there's not more guidance on spell trading, because it's the most interesting option between the three.

[vasilidor]

Anything past what they get by level up has to be purchased using wealth by level if created above level 1. Otherwise the wizard must find or purchase scrolls and spells.

[RandomPeasant]

I think it is reasonable to want to limit the ability to scribe spells arbitrarily without paying for scrolls. After all, you're probably not going to be allowed to do that in-game, and whatever weirdness might arise from requiring purchase of scrolls, a strong discontinuity between character creation and organic growth is also bad. My default assumption would be to use the same availability rules as the Mage of the Arcane Order's Spellpool: core spells are available by default, other spells are available at the DM's discretion. Want to grab haste for just the cost of the scribing? Sure. Want to pick up draconic polymorph? Either shell out for a scroll or explicitly find a Wizard who already knows it.

[Endarire]

For NPCs, 'all of them' is a reasonable and legitimate answer.

[KoDT69]

Lol y'all counting and ledgering cost vs WBL would recoil from my games. Even tho the Wizard is #1 in power, I allow copying for just the scribing cost for all PHB spells. I also allow a found scroll to basically be cast into the spell book, copying itself as it's read. For free! I mean, the scroll is consumed, but that's the only cost. I mean, my first 2 wizards found spell books of "All spells from level 1 to 6" just to avoid the nitpicking and tracking resources. Only had to worry if we made it to level 15+ lolz.

[Mordante]

Lol y'all counting and ledgering cost vs WBL would recoil from my games. Even tho the Wizard is #1 in power, I allow copying for just the scribing cost for all PHB spells. I also allow a found scroll to basically be cast into the spell book, copying itself as it's read. For free! I mean, the scroll is consumed, but that's the only cost. I mean, my first 2 wizards found spell books of "All spells from level 1 to 6" just to avoid the nitpicking and tracking resources. Only had to worry if we made it to level 15+ lolz.

If Wizards get everything for free. Do martial characters or non wizards also get all their tools of the trade for free?

[Yahzi Coyote]

All of them. Otherwise you might as well be a sorcerer.

[redking]

If they are epic NPCs, then everything in the PHB seems reasonable.

[Mordante]

All of them. Otherwise you might as well be a sorcerer.


If they are epic NPCs, then everything in the PHB seems reasonable.

Woudn't this make the most powerful class in the game even more powerful compared to other classes?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Woudn't this make the most powerful class in the game even more powerful compared to other classes?

Not really. A wizards daily power is mostly determined by the number and level of spells he can cast in a day.
Adding more versatility lets him spend that power in more ways, but he's still limited to the same output.

Keep in mind that a wizard with limited spell access will pick what he needs for his build first, so he'll perform whatever role he chooses just as well either way.
You don't need more than 4 spells a level to be an effective summoner or BFC wizard or even blaster.

What's lost will be mostly party buffs and utility spells - a wizard who only ever gets 4 spells per level probably won't pick up Haste, Enlarge Person or Resist Energy unless he's focused on buffing.
That and things like divinations, teleport, true seeing and so on - stuff that martials can't do anyway, so letting the wizard do those things isn't a balance issue.

Also keep in mind that very few wizards are played anywhere close to their theoretical limit in actual games. You don't need to balance something your player could be doing if they aren't doing it.

More spell access is already gated behind scribing time as it is. It still takes 2 full days to scribe a spell, one day to study the spell and one to scribe, with very few options to reduce that time.
Which also cost gold, so it's not like the wizard is getting them for free.
Adding a penalty to WBL (beyond standard spellbook value) on top of that doesn't really balance anything and makes no sense.

Expended consumables - as in things you no longer have - don't count against WBL, so why should a scroll expended for scribing?
It's a houserule no one needs that just feels like a punishment for playing wizard.

[Darg]

A found spellbook is worth the cost of purchasing the book and the cost of inscribing the spells into the spellbook. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#sellingaSpellbook) A normal spellbook with 100 pages of spells is worth 10,015gp for example. I take the value if the spellbook and subtract it from the expected treasure value and then use what's remaining to generate treasure.

New members to a party, I never allow to purchase services as part of their WBL. If they want to start with extra spells, they buy the scrolls.

Otherwise they spend earned treasure to get more spells.

[RandomPeasant]

I also allow a found scroll to basically be cast into the spell book, copying itself as it's read. For free! I mean, the scroll is consumed, but that's the only cost.

It actually used to be that you could just stick scrolls directly into spellbooks.


All of them. Otherwise you might as well be a sorcerer.

If the Wizard scribes zero spells beyond what they get from level up into their spellbook ever, they will have as many 4th level spells known as the Sorcerer ever gets when the Sorcerer gets their first 4th level spell known. I'm fine with letting people scribe new spells easily, but you are very much better off than the Sorcerer even under an extremely strict set of rulings.


Which also cost gold, so it's not like the wizard is getting them for free.

And that gold cost is a constraint. I'm not going to spend 500 GP to learn secret chest.


Adding a penalty to WBL (beyond standard spellbook value) on top of that doesn't really balance anything and makes no sense.

It absolutely makes sense. The game indicates that both scribing from other Wizards and scribing from scrolls have gold costs. I can understand why you would be able to trade spells with people without paying cost, but the idea that it doesn't make sense to pay a cost the game explicitly says you should pay is not reasonable.


Expended consumables - as in things you no longer have - don't count against WBL, so why should a scroll expended for scribing?

You don't expend the scroll when scribing ("A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll."). So if you decide you want to learn teleport from a scroll, you still do have the teleport scroll, and can then use it normally or sell it off at half price to recoup some of your costs. That is really not unreasonable, and very much consistent with the other ways Wizards are expected to learn spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And that gold cost is a constraint. I'm not going to spend 500 GP to learn secret chest.
So don't. Nobody is forcing you to scribe spells you don't consider worth it.


It absolutely makes sense. The game indicates that both scribing from other Wizards and scribing from scrolls have gold costs. I can understand why you would be able to trade spells with people without paying cost, but the idea that it doesn't make sense to pay a cost the game explicitly says you should pay is not reasonable.
There's a difference between paying the cost and counting that cost against WBL.
You pay scribing fees or the cost of a scroll to copy from, but the only thing that counts against WBL is the value of your spellbook.



You don't expend the scroll when scribing ("A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll."). So if you decide you want to learn teleport from a scroll, you still do have the teleport scroll, and can then use it normally or sell it off at half price to recoup some of your costs. That is really not unreasonable, and very much consistent with the other ways Wizards are expected to learn spells.

I think you got a little confused there. The spell doesn't vanish from the scroll if you fail to successfully copy it, but if the copying succeeds the spell vanishes from the scroll.

If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can
copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook,
below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from
unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell.
She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains
another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a
scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

[RandomPeasant]

There's a difference between paying the cost and counting that cost against WBL.
You pay scribing fees or the cost of a scroll to copy from, but the only thing that counts against WBL is the value of your spellbook.

Do you have a citation to that effect? Because you have demonstrably gained an ongoing benefit from paying the cost. Unless you would like to argue that a stat tome doesn't count against WBL long-term?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Do you have a citation to that effect?


Just as gaining a level requires between thirteen and
fourteen encounters of a party’s level, so too fourteen average rolls
on the table at the party’s level will get them the treasure they
need to gain the appropriate amount for the next highest level,
assuming that the PCs expend some resources such as potions and
scrolls during those encounters.
Wealth by level is the treasure you're supposed to have after spending some on consumables. Once they're gone they're no longer wealth.


Because you have demonstrably gained an ongoing benefit from paying the cost. Unless you would like to argue that a stat tome doesn't count against WBL long-term?

The ongoing benefit you've gained already has a value assigned to it. It's the value of your spellbook.
Your spellbook is worth the same no matter if you copied all your spells from scrolls, got them all free from levelups or copied from another wizard for the standard fee.
And that's the cost that counts against WBL.

[Darg]

Wizards and Treasure
If you’re designing an encounter with a wizard, subtract the value of a spellbook and material components (see Selling a Spellbook, page 179 of the Player’s Handbook) from the average treasure value before you start rolling up treasure. Alternatively, you can add the up the value of all the components and the spellbook and compare the total value to Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter. Find the level that most closely approaches that total, and subtract it from the level of the encounter. Use that new level to generate the rest of the treasure.

On the same page, you have the wealth comparison table which outlines that characters are supposed to receive more treasure than wealth to help pay for expenses.


As you can see, rewards using these tables generate more wealth than indicated. We assume characters use up that additional money on expenses such as being raised from the dead, potions, scrolls, ammunition, food, and so forth.

Your job is to compare the wealth gained from the encounters in your adventure with the expected wealth gain shown on the table above. If your adventure has more treasure, reduce it. If your adventure has less treasure, plant enough treasure not related to encounters to match the value (see Other Treasure, below).

Your job is also to make sure that wealth gets evenly distributed. The third column in the table above shows that each character should get an equal share of the treasure from an adventure. If a single item, such as a magic staff, makes up most of the treasure, then most of the party earns nothing for their hard work. While you can make it up to them in later adventures, it is best to use the methods described in this chapter to ensure an even distribution of wealth.

The value of a spellbook is what counts against WBL. One time use items/services once rendered are no longer wealth and therefore do not count against WBL. That said, one shouldn't discount the cost of having to purchase more spells over restocking consumables and keeping an eye on multiple spellbooks.

[AnonJr]

How many spells is going to depend - in large part - on how rare or plentiful magic is. The more rare, the less likely they're going to get much more than the normal amount of leveling. The more plentiful, the more likely they're going to run across scrolls, shops, and random loot.

From there it's going to be limited by time and money constraints. Low wealth game? Likely not *that* much more than regular leveling... spells be expensive. Hoard coming to wreak the town in a week? Not exactly a lot of downtime for scribing stuff.

Beyond that, the variety of spells a wizard can collect is one of the benefits of the class. Even assuming every spell ever written could be located, there's still the money and downtime issues. On top of that, it's still one page per spell level, each spell, in your book... won't take too long before you need to start shunting loot into renting a barbarian to tote your books.

And more than that, there's still the spells-per-day issue. 15th level wizard, every spell in the compendium - you still only get the 2 7th-level spells per day. Which 2 are you picking? Are they the right ones? Can you make them work even if they're not the "right" ones? A lot of a wizard's power is theoretical, in that if you happen to very presciently prepared the exact right spells in the exact right number for today's adventure, you'll kill it. Got 3 fireballs but run into something immune? Hope you've invested feats in energy substitution... Oh, you can't switch on the fly - that's the sorcerer's bag.

In practice more than a fair amount of this will balance itself out. Someone will surely run a litany of items that increase spells-per-day or spell recovery or some other "way around my issues" - which is money spent on items and not more spells. Choices in life.

[RandomPeasant]

Your spellbook is worth the same no matter if you copied all your spells from scrolls, got them all free from levelups or copied from another wizard for the standard fee.

And an inherent bonus is worth the same whether you got it from casting wish yourself, bound an Efreet, or bought a stat tome. It is demonstrably the case that there exist different ways of getting to the same place which have different impacts on subsequent net wealth.

[King of Nowhere]

I assume any wizard has all "readily availabe" spells into his spellbook.
The reason is that if a wizard player wants a spell, but does not have it, the player will try to find the spell. hence you will devise a sidequest, or perhaps you will tell the wizard to spend a few days doing stuff. either way, the end result is the same: the wizard gets his spell. if he did a sidequest, he also gets other loot and xp. the table loses time that could be spent on more interesting endeavours than "find a scroll for mr wizard".

I also assume that any decently leveled adventurer has plenty of connections to other powerful people. A 15th level wizard surely must know other powerful wizards. call your collegues, ask the spell, trade for a favor.
My campaign world has universities and library directly. And sure, you must be a member of a powerful organization to access, but really, unless you are trying very hard to avoid ties, you will be. even if you're not, you can surely pay a fee or negotiate a favor. but even in a lower magic world, as i said, personal connections will generally do the trick.

so, is there any special reason the wizard could not get a certain spell by pulling all the various strings he can pull? there generally is not, because a high level character can pull a lot of strings. and so, just give him the damn spell and don't waste time. Say something like "ok, you spend 2d4 days of downtime and find the spell".
If there *is* a special reason, that may become a plot hook or worldbuilding point.



P.S. I also generally assume that whatever powerful organization the party find themselves part of - generally the military of a powerful nation, but there are others available - they will as part of payment provide spells, training opportunities, connections, and everything else that the party could reasonably get on their own, but would require time and effort and annoying bookkeeping.

[ericgrau]

On the same page, you have the wealth comparison table which outlines that characters are supposed to receive more treasure than wealth to help pay for expenses.



The value of a spellbook is what counts against WBL. One time use items/services once rendered are no longer wealth and therefore do not count against WBL. That said, one shouldn't discount the cost of having to purchase more spells over restocking consumables and keeping an eye on multiple spellbooks.

Do you have something about a PC spellbook specifically? An NPC spellbook is worth considerably less since it has spells you want and spells you don't want. A solution might be to make a PC's extra spells semi-random and then charge spellbook cost.

Likewise if you go by treasure there will be some spells adventurers will find in scroll form and never in spellbook form during the campaign.

[Darg]

Do you have something about a PC spellbook specifically? An NPC spellbook is worth considerably less since it has spells you want and spells you don't want. A solution might be to make a PC's extra spells semi-random and then charge spellbook cost.

Likewise if you go by treasure there will be some spells adventurers will find in scroll form and never in spellbook form during the campaign.

PC or NPC doesn't matter. The value of a spellbook is simply its cost to purchase and the cost of the number of inscribed pages. That means they are calculated the same. What a player/character holds to be valuable does not mean it's worth more or less gp because of it. Services and consumables are simply not counted toward your expected wealth gain. That doesn't mean players can't overspend on those things and dip into their acquired wealth.

[Elkad]

I think you're playing the game rather differently to the rest of us...

Having all of them doesn't actually happen, but it's still a goal.

As to counting them against WBL.

Look at Faily's post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25502978&postcount=7). 171 spell levels (plus unmentioned cantrips) if I counted right. 17,100gp. And 30gp for the books themselves.
If he buys Boccob's Book for 12,500gp, he can copy his books at no cost, and then sell his originals for 8565gp, costing him a mere 4,000gp overall.

If I kill the Wizard Faily and add his book(s) to my library, I have to add 17,100gp to my WBL?
What if half the spells are new to me, and the rest are duplicates of stuff I already know? Do I still count the whole value of the books?

If I want to make a copy of my books, do I have to count it against my WBL again?

An elf collegiate generalist can literally swap his fully free book for a Boccobs at L13 with some left over for lunch. And still put all his new spells in a regular book for the rest of his career, copy them to Boccobs, and immediately sell the original.
Since his original book wasn't part of his WBL, does the gold he got for it suddenly count when he sells it?

How about those 40 +1 longswords your fighter has stashed because he's going to take Leadership in a couple levels? Do those count for WBL? Does a giant pile of gold fall from the sky to replace that WBL when he hands them out to his new followers?

Wizards pay for scrolls (or copy privileges) for spells they want to add to their book, and the price per page, but that's it at my table. Once it's in the book, it's done, just like if you'd bought the scroll and cast the spell off it. It's not wealth any more.
If they loot a book and learn it (complete arcane), it costs them nothing other than the time they have to invest.
The wizard can only memorize so many spells a day anyway. If he has 4 4th level slots, it doesn't matter that there are 250 4th level spells in his books, some of which he may NEVER cast. It would be silly to count that 100,000gp against the rest of his gear.

Counting each and every spell known in each of your books towards wealth leads to players breaking ladders in half to sell 2 10' poles and a bundle of kindling for a profit, and all the other D&D getrichquick schemes.
It might be RAW, but tables that actually play that way are few and far between.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If I kill the Wizard Faily and add his book(s) to my library, I have to add 17,100gp to my WBL?
What if half the spells are new to me, and the rest are duplicates of stuff I already know? Do I still count the whole value of the books?
By RAW you count the whole value. A spellbook is worth X gp even if you have 5 identical ones.


If I want to make a copy of my books, do I have to count it against my WBL again?
Funnily enough you'd lose more WBL than the money you spend on scribing it since duplicating a spellbook is only half price, but the resulting spellbook still has standard spellbook value.


An elf collegiate generalist can literally swap his fully free book for a Boccobs at L13 with some left over for lunch. And still put all his new spells in a regular book for the rest of his career, copy them to Boccobs, and immediately sell the original.
Since his original book wasn't part of his WBL, does the gold he got for it suddenly count when he sells it?
By RAW a spellbook is worth as much as the spells written in it. It doesn't matter where those spells came from.
If you got them for free they're still worth 100gp/page if they're written in a normal spellbook.
It also doesn't matter that a Blessed Book effectively gets you 100k worth of spells for 12.5k gp.

WBL only cares what the things you own are worth.
It doesn't matter if you spent 90k on your weapon (increasing your combat ability) or an Apparatus of the Crab (a very expensive paperweight), they're worth the same chunk of your WBL.


How about those 40 +1 longswords your fighter has stashed because he's going to take Leadership in a couple levels? Do those count for WBL? Does a giant pile of gold fall from the sky to replace that WBL when he hands them out to his new followers?
Are +1 longswords worth money? Then they count against WBL. If you give them away they don't.
Treasure doesn't fall from the sky to replace it immediately but the DM is supposed to increase treasure values to help bring you up to WBL again.


Note that all of those answers are the "by RAW" ones. I don't play it that way either because as you've noted it makes no sense.


Wizards pay for scrolls (or copy privileges) for spells they want to add to their book, and the price per page, but that's it at my table. Once it's in the book, it's done, just like if you'd bought the scroll and cast the spell off it. It's not wealth any more.
If they loot a book and learn it (complete arcane), it costs them nothing other than the time they have to invest.
The wizard can only memorize so many spells a day anyway. If he has 4 4th level slots, it doesn't matter that there are 250 4th level spells in his books, some of which he may NEVER cast. It would be silly to count that 100,000gp against the rest of his gear.
Yes, that's how i handle it too. The short-term loss of spending money (and the scribing time) is enough to balance getting new spells imo.

[KoDT69]

If Wizards get everything for free. Do martial characters or non wizards also get all their tools of the trade for free?

If you know of my post history at all, you'd know that I am definitely NOT a Wizard fanboy in the least. I don't believe that they need any more power in the least, even just a straight classed core only Wizard can wreck the game if you have a player willing to try. I don't play with people that would abuse that possibility. The other, and real answer to why I allow easier scribing... Because accounting, bookkeeping WBL, nitpicking ink/supplies, etc... That crap just isn't fun! If a Wizard wants to pay to copy in a city, I can allow or restrict the selection if need be. Scrolls found in treasure are random so it's never been an issue for my games. Heck, my brother has a 20 something Wizard and he runs out of lower level spells first. Why? Because Fireball is fun. Because buffing a Wizard and smacking stuff like a Fighter can be fun. Because charming people can be fun. We're old school like that.

To answer your question though, as an actual fan of the mundanes rising to power in a magical world, yes I do make sure the casters are a little more limited in magic items and the mundanes get a little extra. Sometimes it's as simple as throwing in an item shoring up a weakness resulting from poor character build, or just making a weapon intelligent and giving it a special power or two to add options in and out of combat.

[vasilidor]

Having all of them doesn't actually happen, but it's still a goal.

As to counting them against WBL.

Look at Faily's post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25502978&postcount=7). 171 spell levels (plus unmentioned cantrips) if I counted right. 17,100gp. And 30gp for the books themselves.
If he buys Boccob's Book for 12,500gp, he can copy his books at no cost, and then sell his originals for 8565gp, costing him a mere 4,000gp overall.

If I kill the Wizard Faily and add his book(s) to my library, I have to add 17,100gp to my WBL?
What if half the spells are new to me, and the rest are duplicates of stuff I already know? Do I still count the whole value of the books?

If I want to make a copy of my books, do I have to count it against my WBL again?

An elf collegiate generalist can literally swap his fully free book for a Boccobs at L13 with some left over for lunch. And still put all his new spells in a regular book for the rest of his career, copy them to Boccobs, and immediately sell the original.
Since his original book wasn't part of his WBL, does the gold he got for it suddenly count when he sells it?

How about those 40 +1 longswords your fighter has stashed because he's going to take Leadership in a couple levels? Do those count for WBL? Does a giant pile of gold fall from the sky to replace that WBL when he hands them out to his new followers?

Wizards pay for scrolls (or copy privileges) for spells they want to add to their book, and the price per page, but that's it at my table. Once it's in the book, it's done, just like if you'd bought the scroll and cast the spell off it. It's not wealth any more.
If they loot a book and learn it (complete arcane), it costs them nothing other than the time they have to invest.
The wizard can only memorize so many spells a day anyway. If he has 4 4th level slots, it doesn't matter that there are 250 4th level spells in his books, some of which he may NEVER cast. It would be silly to count that 100,000gp against the rest of his gear.

Counting each and every spell known in each of your books towards wealth leads to players breaking ladders in half to sell 2 10' poles and a bundle of kindling for a profit, and all the other D&D getrichquick schemes.
It might be RAW, but tables that actually play that way are few and far between.

For me, Wealth by level is generally only followed if a character is entering play past level 1. Yes, I am quite aware that some characters cannot face up against certain monsters without wealth by level. I care about wizards spell books being in line with wealth by level because each additional spell is another option and maybe somewhere in there is a broken combo that I have not yet noticed yet that can KO encounters real hard. Once you get into play, your treasure from there on out winds up being up to chance, which will often exceed wealth by level. Unless some character needs help to be viable, then maybe I will throw in a bone in the treasure hoard.

[icefractal]

Several posts bring up a good point - when we're talking about WBL for starting characters (ie. a 10th level character coming in with 62k gp*), there are two ways to view that "wealth":

A) It's the market value of the stuff you have, regardless of how that stuff was acquired - bought, crafted, stolen, won gambling, etc, it doesn't matter - a Headband of Int +4 will always consume 16k of your starting WBL. In this model, the value of spells in a book is 100 gp / page, regardless of how those spells were acquired - by scrolls, copying, trading, stealing, etc.

B) It's a pile of money to spend before play starts. Which means that things like item crafting feats affect it, allowing you to start with more gear. In this case, the acquisition method of the spells does matter and would count against that cost.

IME, Method A is more commonly used, because it's usually more balanced and always easier to adjudicate - in Method B, if a character has extreme, superhuman negotiation skills, should they be able to get unlimited starting gear because they're able to (in play) convince many people to give them things for free?

* In PF1, since that's easier to look up.

[Darg]

Several posts bring up a good point - when we're talking about WBL for starting characters (ie. a 10th level character coming in with 62k gp*), there are two ways to view that "wealth":

A) It's the market value of the stuff you have, regardless of how that stuff was acquired - bought, crafted, stolen, won gambling, etc, it doesn't matter - a Headband of Int +4 will always consume 16k of your starting WBL. In this model, the value of spells in a book is 100 gp / page, regardless of how those spells were acquired - by scrolls, copying, trading, stealing, etc.

B) It's a pile of money to spend before play starts. Which means that things like item crafting feats affect it, allowing you to start with more gear. In this case, the acquisition method of the spells does matter and would count against that cost.

IME, Method A is more commonly used, because it's usually more balanced and always easier to adjudicate - in Method B, if a character has extreme, superhuman negotiation skills, should they be able to get unlimited starting gear because they're able to (in play) convince many people to give them things for free?

* In PF1, since that's easier to look up.

Or method C) market value of the stuff you have and can't be custom made until after the start of play. As in a Wizard starts play with only their class given spells known in however many spellbooks they desire. This is meant as encouragement to not simply leave party members behind if you can help it. We play as though characters are likely to die at any moment and the DM isn't going to fudge for your lives. Characters in a sense are expendable so there needs to be a little extra incentive to do what they can to keep the original party going or it makes things more punishing.

[Maat Mons]

Does that discourage party members from letting each other die? Just remember to always take the spellbook off your dead Wizard friends, and you get a nice payday every time one of them dies. If one of the players is willing to be Kenny, from South Park, that's a steady stream of income for the party.

Or, if the Wizard player can convince the other party members to hold onto all the spellbooks, each new Wizard he makes will inherit a boatload of spells from all his previous Wizards. Just pick different spells on every character, and you're only a few deaths away from having all the spells you could ever want.

[KoDT69]

Lol there's always a way to game the system.

[icefractal]

Or method C) market value of the stuff you have and can't be custom made until after the start of play. As in a Wizard starts play with only their class given spells known in however many spellbooks they desire. This is meant as encouragement to not simply leave party members behind if you can help it. We play as though characters are likely to die at any moment and the DM isn't going to fudge for your lives. Characters in a sense are expendable so there needs to be a little extra incentive to do what they can to keep the original party going or it makes things more punishing.See I wouldn't call buying additional spells any more "custom made" than having the particular items you want to begin with. Like, in most settings it's probably a lot easier to find a 3rd level Wizard you can copy Scorching Ray from (and/or a dead 3rd level Wizard's spellbook) than to find someone selling a Ring of Three Wishes.

Also, I kind of feel like people overestimate how potent "more spells known" is for a Wizard. Y'all are aware that Clerics and Druids get their entire list as known spells they can prepare from, for free? And that in practice, without extensive divinations I've not seen used in practice, that theoretical versatility has diminishing returns?

[Darg]

Does that discourage party members from letting each other die? Just remember to always take the spellbook off your dead Wizard friends, and you get a nice payday every time one of them dies. If one of the players is willing to be Kenny, from South Park, that's a steady stream of income for the party.

Or, if the Wizard player can convince the other party members to hold onto all the spellbooks, each new Wizard he makes will inherit a boatload of spells from all his previous Wizards. Just pick different spells on every character, and you're only a few deaths away from having all the spells you could ever want.

It takes 24 hours to copy each spell, requires a spellcraft check, and anything they recover counts as treasure and so works toward WBL. There is a lot of incentive for them not to just leave their Wizard behind, especially when spell scribing is part of your expendable treasure like consumables and spell components (that stuff that allows you to rez).

[KoDT69]

The Cleric list is vastly less abusable than the Wizard list. The only Cleric spells that caused any DM headaches were in AD&D in a campaign specific (Forgotten Realms because of course it was) called Prayers from the Faithful. It included some deity specific spells that were above the normal Cleric power curve. The deity specific rule was optional though and my old groups were all official game books and Dragon Magazine. Any official source was free game.
The 2 spells in particular:
Dimensional Folding - A funky worded gate-like Cleric Mass Teleport. It had a 15gp component which we did use. But having that would be expected for a 7th level spell right? Nah this one was only 4th level! Hoo boy did we use the crap outta that!
Might of Mystra - Another 4th level spell. It would replicate the effect of a spell cast either last round or earlier initiative this round. Not even a Spellcraft check or Intelligence check was required! The Wizard would just tell me what he was casting if he thought I might find it beneficial to duplicate! Didn't duplicate the actual spell, just the effect. Wording is key for this because Haste doesn't stack on another Haste, but this was just a similar effect, not a second Haste spell. 2E Haste was very powerful and this combo could just wreck encounters. I chose to save that trick for the campaign finale ;)
I'm just not seeing that level of cheese in 3.5e ;)

[Darg]

See I wouldn't call buying additional spells any more "custom made" than having the particular items you want to begin with. Like, in most settings it's probably a lot easier to find a 3rd level Wizard you can copy Scorching Ray from (and/or a dead 3rd level Wizard's spellbook) than to find someone selling a Ring of Three Wishes.

Also, I kind of feel like people overestimate how potent "more spells known" is for a Wizard. Y'all are aware that Clerics and Druids get their entire list as known spells they can prepare from, for free? And that in practice, without extensive divinations I've not seen used in practice, that theoretical versatility has diminishing returns?

It's just what we do. It isn't something personal to wizards, just a blanket way to play. It's also not like they can't find more spells to scribe as they play. As I mentioned before, they can spend WBL at the price of a scroll to learn any extra spells they want. It'll be made back up eventually because it's no longer wealth. Scribing spells ends up being free eventually anyways.

[Maat Mons]

When you find a spellbook, you don't spend time and money copying the spells. That would be silly.

You use one casting of Read Magic to decipher all the spells, and then you make a DC 15 + spell level Spellcraft check to prepare spells from it. You can take 10, as always, and you've got good Int and max ranks. So you always succeed.

Since your chances of failure are 0%, and you don't actually roll any dice because you're taking 10, there's really no reason to ever bother translating them into your own notation.

[sleepyphoenixx]

When you find a spellbook, you don't spend time and money copying the spells. That would be silly.

You use one casting of Read Magic to decipher all the spells, and then you make a DC 15 + spell level Spellcraft check to prepare spells from it. You can take 10, as always, and you've got good Int and max ranks. So you always succeed.

Since your chances of failure are 0%, and you don't actually roll any dice because you're taking 10, there's really no reason to ever bother translating them into your own notation.

That doesn't actually work. A wizard can only prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook that he knows and already has written in his own spellbook.

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook

Otherwise he has to master the spellbook first (CArc p.140), which is a rather lengthy process (one week + 1 day per spell, whether you already know it or not) and a reasonably difficult spellcraft check (DC 25 + highest spell level).

If you only want one or two spells from a looted spellbook it's faster and easier to just copy them over instead of mastering the entire book, especially if you have a Blessed Book or similar spellbook that doesn't have scribing costs.

[Maat Mons]

Oh, well then nevermind.

[Elkad]

Does that discourage party members from letting each other die? Just remember to always take the spellbook off your dead Wizard friends, and you get a nice payday every time one of them dies. If one of the players is willing to be Kenny, from South Park, that's a steady stream of income for the party.

That's true for any party member though. Kenny could be equipping everyone with Wings of Flying and Animated shields too.
Completely separate problem.

-----------


If there are two wizards in my party, do they conspire on level-up choices and then swap spells with one another? Sure. They pay the scribing cost and it's done.

I control the treasure amount. That is it. Do I sometimes give out gear that is specifically targeted to a party member? Sure. That might be magic horseshoes for the paladin's mount, or spells to fill in some things I know the wizard wants. I don't tell the party how to divide it, never have, and they've unexpectedly sold things I thought they would really want to keep, and latched onto things I thought were junk (Apparatus of Kwalish is actually one of them).

This game, I'm using Yahzi's idea of XP as a physical commodity (see his World of Prime thread, and his books), and I don't even assign THAT to the party equally. It's on them to divvy it up.

I haven't looked at WBL once. The first session they had about 5gp of gear each. I gave them everything since then. If you added up the total value of everything the party has, it's probably 30% over what WBL says they should have, but I'm positive at least one of them is under by 50%, and some are over.

One of my house rules announced at game start was "any replacement character will be first level". They grumbled a bit. They discovered through gameplay that they could save XP. Couple sessions later I was expecting them to have leveled up (and had based encounters on that), and they were all a bit short. I asked for an accounting. I hadn't forgotten a reward, they had decided to reserve one equal share to instantly powerlevel any replacement character. (and then immediately spent it on something else, and then replaced it with an even bigger fund...). So they are walking around with more than a spare character in XP in their pockets. At 5gp/xp. By RAW that should be counted as WBL too.

[Quertus]

So, I’m petty sure that a lot of you are using the phrase “wealth by level” when you actually just mean “wealth”, especially when it’s preceded by the phrase “counts against”. Unless you only make characters and never play them, or play in worlds where characters explode when equipped with too much wealth or something.

I think “30 per level, plus a couple of custom spells” is a petty fair guess at an average. Off hand, I’d say that most of my wizards have fewer, with Quertus (my signature academia mage for whom this account is named) being the outlier of “all the spells*, plus more custom spells than there are published spells” that makes up the difference.

As others have pointed out, “spells memorized” is a much more important limiting factor than “spells known” for the effectiveness of a Wizard in actual play most of the time. In fact, I’d argue that there may actually be a *negative* correlation between “number of spells known” and “odds of being useful right now”. Ymmv.

* all the 2e spells

——-

I’ma little confused how the concept of not counting consumables against characters in actual play works. Like, say y’all’re 10th level, and I come in with a new 10th level PC. Then, by the time we reach 11th level, I’ve blown all my gold on beer and hookers consumables like scrolls and potions 🧪, what happens?

Do the other PCs give up treasure (perhaps from a “party fund”) until we’re all even? Does money fall out of the sky (usually from the GM’s flying fiat) to cover my deficiency?

I genuinely don’t understand how this works, because I’m used to “you get X loot; how you spend it is up to you”, where the price at which you acquire new spells matters, and consumables (outside “party funds” healing / condition removal) are a personal choice (and generally a trap).



Dimensional Folding - A funky worded gate-like Cleric Mass Teleport. It had a 15gp component which we did use. But having that would be expected for a 7th level spell right? Nah this one was only 4th level! Hoo boy did we use the crap outta that!
Might of Mystra - Another 4th level spell. It would replicate the effect of a spell cast either last round or earlier initiative this round. Not even a Spellcraft check or Intelligence check was required! The Wizard would just tell me what he was casting if he thought I might find it beneficial to duplicate! Didn't duplicate the actual spell, just the effect. Wording is key for this because Haste doesn't stack on another Haste, but this was just a similar effect, not a second Haste spell. 2E Haste was very powerful and this combo could just wreck encounters. I chose to save that trick for the campaign finale ;)
I'm just not seeing that level of cheese in 3.5e ;)

Ok, first off, kudos on possibly being the first person ever to use the phrase, “I'm just not seeing that level of cheese in 3.5e” :smallbiggrin:

Second, my senility may be acting up, but isn’t Dimension Folding the one that randomly ages you?

Lastly, iirc my most busted “build” in 2e was getting off hundreds of attacks per round. It’s nice to see someone else looking at the power of stacking (although 2e Haste *also* had the “aging” problem…).

[rel]

I realize this is a totally subjective question, but I'm just wondering what is average from your experiences and campaigns. For sake of comparison, let's say a lvl 15 wizards, no school of specialization, giving up to 8th level spells. I know the standard rule is +2 spells per level, but I'm more so wondering how you manage number of spells and spell acquisition throughout the campaign, and how many spells your wizards typically have in their spell-book per level.

Thanks!

I don't have any hard numbers, but my gut feeling for tables I play at is:

Level 15 wizard in a game with downtime access to scrolls, spell books to copy and so on will have about 100 spells known.

In a game without ready scribing opportunities, about half that number or 50 spells known.

[KoDT69]

@Quertus
It did age the caster I think but it was a small enough amount for my non-human character to care about. We had potions of Longevity back then. I know I used 2 over the course of a campaign and had at least 1 or 2 more on hand, but the advanced age increased the mental stats as well so it wasn't all bad.
And yes, the 2E vs 3E multiplication made a huge difference.

[Max Caysey]

Having all of them doesn't actually happen, but it's still a goal.

As to counting them against WBL.

Look at Faily's post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25502978&postcount=7). 171 spell levels (plus unmentioned cantrips) if I counted right. 17,100gp. And 30gp for the books themselves.
If he buys Boccob's Book for 12,500gp, he can copy his books at no cost, and then sell his originals for 8565gp, costing him a mere 4,000gp overall.

If I kill the Wizard Faily and add his book(s) to my library, I have to add 17,100gp to my WBL?
What if half the spells are new to me, and the rest are duplicates of stuff I already know? Do I still count the whole value of the books?

If I want to make a copy of my books, do I have to count it against my WBL again?

An elf collegiate generalist can literally swap his fully free book for a Boccobs at L13 with some left over for lunch. And still put all his new spells in a regular book for the rest of his career, copy them to Boccobs, and immediately sell the original.
Since his original book wasn't part of his WBL, does the gold he got for it suddenly count when he sells it?

How about those 40 +1 longswords your fighter has stashed because he's going to take Leadership in a couple levels? Do those count for WBL? Does a giant pile of gold fall from the sky to replace that WBL when he hands them out to his new followers?

Wizards pay for scrolls (or copy privileges) for spells they want to add to their book, and the price per page, but that's it at my table. Once it's in the book, it's done, just like if you'd bought the scroll and cast the spell off it. It's not wealth any more.
If they loot a book and learn it (complete arcane), it costs them nothing other than the time they have to invest.
The wizard can only memorize so many spells a day anyway. If he has 4 4th level slots, it doesn't matter that there are 250 4th level spells in his books, some of which he may NEVER cast. It would be silly to count that 100,000gp against the rest of his gear.

Counting each and every spell known in each of your books towards wealth leads to players breaking ladders in half to sell 2 10' poles and a bundle of kindling for a profit, and all the other D&D getrichquick schemes.
It might be RAW, but tables that actually play that way are few and far between.

Level 1 npcs comes with 900gp worth of value. The figther should not be hording longswords for followers who have their equipment. Or if they dont they give their master 900gp each to buy equipment…


@Quertus
It did age the caster I think but it was a small enough amount for my non-human character to care about. We had potions of Longevity back then. I know I used 2 over the course of a campaign and had at least 1 or 2 more on hand, but the advanced age increased the mental stats as well so it wasn't all bad.
And yes, the 2E vs 3E multiplication made a huge difference.

Lie of a bed of restoration, and cast steal life on yourself!

[Quertus]

@Quertus
It did age the caster I think but it was a small enough amount for my non-human character to care about. We had potions of Longevity back then. I know I used 2 over the course of a campaign and had at least 1 or 2 more on hand, but the advanced age increased the mental stats as well so it wasn't all bad.
And yes, the 2E vs 3E multiplication made a huge difference.

No humans in the party? Solo adventurer? How did this not matter? (AFB, iirc, it could potentially age those traveling through by decades at a time)


Lie of a bed of restoration, and cast steal life on yourself!

For that to work, first, you would need to bring about the spell plague or something. And, even then, you’d have to negotiate with the GM about how (or whenever!) the Dimension Folding spell would work in the new edition.

(Ie, I think you just gave a 3e solution to a 2e problem)

[KoDT69]

No humans in the party? Solo adventurer? How did this not matter? (AFB, iirc, it could potentially age those traveling through by decades at a time)
No humans that I remember. We did have a Halfling but he was only there briefly. Also the chance for familiar travel ageing was very low which was the main thing we used it for. I only used it for the less familiar places a few times, probably less than 5.