Monster Classes, Racial Classes Savage Progression... Any good?

[Condé]

Hi,

I'm looking for every Monster & Racial Classes, Savage Progression or acquired templates... And trying to find one that doesn't suck.
For these who don't know, I'm talking about every rules created in order to let the player take a monster class from the start even if it has Racial hit Dices or Level Adjustments.

I know there is Homebrews and additions people on the forum did and they are interesting. But I never play with hombebrew. Even the one I do I probably will never play it. For instance, it is nothing spectacular, I was just frustated about the fact that only the psionic Thri-keen had a Racial Class so I mad a non-psionic version. Which isn't much but, you know... I prefer this race like this. (And you have only LA+1 instead of +2 which is nice.)

From this thread from 2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591128-A-List-of-all-Monster-Classes), by Twogunkid, and other additions by member of the forum, we can have a pretty good look at (mostly) every classes or equivalent that are available to players.

Complete Psionic:
Dueregar
Thri-Kreen
Elan
Half-Giant
Githyanki
Githzerai

Dragon 293: Misc. Monsters (you have to do the work yourself but has ECLs for all core monsters)

Dragon 312: Bunch of Celestials
Asura (14 levels)
Bariaur (5 levels)
Hollyphant (15 levels)
Leskylor (12 levels)
Moon Dog (17 levels)
Quesar (17 levels)
Rhek (8 levels)

Dragon 313: Werecreatures
Werebear (9 levels)
Wereboar (6 levels)
Wererat (4 levels)
Weretiger (9 levels)
Werewolf (5 levels)

Dragon 318:
Lizardfolk (3 levels)

Dragon 320:
Dragons (Metallic ones, others would need to be adjusted)
Metallic Dragons (20 levels between 13-15 HD)

Dragon 322:
Dark Creeper (5 levels only 1 HD)
Dark Stalker (8 levels)

Dragon 332: Dragons (Chromatic)
Chromatic Dragons (20 levels between 14-15 HD)

Savage Species:
Air Elementals (14 levels)
Annis Hag (12 levels)
Aranea (7 levels)
Astral Deva (20 levels)
Athach (19 levels)
Avoral (14 levels)
Azer (6 levels)
Barghest (12 levels)
Belker (12 levels)
Centaur (6 levels)
Djinn (13 levels)
Drider (10 levels)
Earth Elemental (13 levels)
Efreeti (19 levels)
Ettercap (9 levels)
Fire Elemental (14 levels)
Fire Giant (19 levels)
Flamebrother Salamander (7 levels)
Flesh Golem (15 levels)
Frost Giant (18 levels)
Ghaele (20 levels)
Ghoul (5 levels)
Green Hag (14 levels)
Griffon (10 levels)
Grig (4 levels)
Hamatula (14 levels)
Harpy (10 levels)
Hound Archon (11 levels)
Imp (7 levels)
Janni (11 levels)
Kyton (14 levels)
Lillend (13 levels)
Magmin (6 levels)
Medusa (10 levels)
Minotaur (8 levels)
Mind Flayer (15 levels)
Mummy (13 levels)
Nixie (4 levels (1 HD bite the LA 3 on this one))
Ogre (6 levels)
Ogre Mage (12 levels)
Pixie (5 levels (see Nixie))
Rakshasa (14 levels)
Satyr (7 Levels )
Sea Hag (8 levels)
Shadow (10 levels)
Stone Giant (18 levels)
Succubus/Inccubus (12 levels)
Treant (12 levels)
Triton (5 levels)
Troll (11 levels)
Trumpet Archon (20 levels)
Umber Hulk (14 levels)
Vrock (16 levels)
Water Elemental (13 levels)

Libris Mortis:
Ghast (8 levels)
Mohrg (20 levels)
Mummy (13 levels again)
Vampire Spawn (8 levels)
Wight (8 levels)

Savage Progressions: Acquired Templates
Vampire (8 levels)
Half-Dragon (3 levels)
Wererat (3 levels)
Half-Fiend (4 levels)
Wereboar (3 levels)
Were-Direboar (7 levels)
Fiendish Template (2 levels)
Werebear (3 levels)
Werebrownbear (6 levels)
Lich (4 levels)
Weretiger (3 levels)
Werediretiger (7 levels)
Ghost (5 levels)
Wolf (2 levels)
Aasimaar, Tieflings, Feytouched (1 level)
Drow, half-fey (2 levels)
Svirfnirblin (3 levels)

Races of the Wild:
Centaur (6 Levels)
Gnoll (3 levels)

Races of Destiny:
Doppelganger (8 levels)
Skulk (3 levels)

Races of Stone:
Feral Garghun (4 Levels)
Stonechild (6 levels)

Drow of the Underdark:
Drow (Complete Psionic-like)

Planar Handbook
updated Avoral (15 levels)
Updated kyton (14 levels)
updated hound archon (11 levels)
updated janni (11 levels)
updated lillend (13 levels)

Champions of Ruins
Draegloth (10 levels)

Races of the Dragon:
Draconic / Half-Dragon Template (Really odd one)

Now... Two questions for you.

- Do you know any other?
- Which one doesn't suck? is good?

I often (always) plays in the Forgotten Realms setting and so can never play a Changeling for example. The only real alternative is Doppelganger. But this race has 4 RHD AND LA+4 which is... A bit much. A bit too much. And the Racial Class from Races of Destiny is not really helpful. Basically every other level you do not gain a hit dice and you have to wait 8 levels before you can change shape at will. Which is a bit... Disappointing.

Gnoll from Races of the Wild might be one of the easier to play. But... You have to play a Gnoll. Which is... Something. I mean, I would like to. If it was a Monstrous humanoid. But no. They are just Humanoid. So... No full Bab, no good saves, no SLA like Outsider, nothing. Two Racial Hit Dices of nothing and a Level adjustment for +2 Str and +1 Nat Armor.

For the same RHD and LA you can have +3 Dex, Nat Armor +3, a poisonous bite, 4 arms and a +30 bonus to jump and the privilege of playing a giant praying mantis.

Yes. Even monsters are not build the same.

And then you have a lot of races with no RHD and LA+1 which are still not considered good by any mean. Only Outsiders and Monstrous Humanoids are considered "Okay" since you have at least something from these hit dices. (Weapon proficency, Full Bab, good Hp, saves, SLAs, alter self abuse...)

Fey'ri (Or lesser if applicable) are interesting. Probably not broken by any means but if you allow them to be lesser you have something playable AND different. I mean, Change Shape at will, even only as a humanoid, is a cool feature and could justify a LA since it is something you cannot have with class features or any other race...

I really would like to see more love for Monster PCs but I think WotC, back then, didn't really want you to play monsters. And I can understand why... And it is for the best, like that, you don't have a bunch of monsters wondering dungeons. And if you want to play one, you have to commit to it and... You are rewarded by the sentiment of playing a unique character.
That is what I'm looking for. Sadly, the rules are all over the place AND you have many attempts to make it less of a problem but no solution is satisfactory. (Even if I like the Racial Classes from Complete Psionic the most, I think)

Not looking for op/brokeness or anything. Just something payable. What are your thoughts?

[ShurikVch]

Mind Flayer was ranked as weak T3 - thus, can't be that hopeless

Also, Ambush Drake (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215118/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) and Ethereal Filcher (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215051/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060224a) -they're both short, have no annoying "LA levels", and Drake even have full BAB

[Anthrowhale]

There are some subtle wording issues around these:
(1) Some (i.e. Savage Species) explicitly require that you fully advance in the monster class before doing otherwise.
(2) Some (i.e. Savage Progressions) explicitly allow you to delay taking further levels indefinitely.
(3) Some (i.e. Complete Psionic) aren't explicit about whether they are of type (1) or (2).
(4) Some (i.e. ShurikVch's examples) are for LA - monsters.

Type (1) typically require a real masochistic streak to play.

Type (2) can be pretty useful, particularly if level buyoff rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) are in play. For example, one level of Lich (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111212934/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) provides Int+2 and can be bought off after 3 levels. Similarly a level of Ghost (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111213120/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) provides undeath and incorporeality for LA+1. Another trick is starting with a Lesser Aasimar and then picking up a level in the transition class (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112024121/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) every 3 levels and buying it off. By level 9, you have Str+4, Dex+2, Con+4, Int+2, Wis+4, Cha+4, Fly = 2x land (good), spell resistance, and a boat load of SLAs.

Type (3) seems most important for the Half-Giant, since this qualifies for the Primordial template providing a tasty Int+4/Cha+4 and at-will immunity. If you can abandon the class after the first level it's even better.

Type (4) requires some heavy DM adjudication, but they look pretty solid.

[Dalmosh]

Over the years, some of my players have wanted to play monstrous races, and getting it right is an evolving process.

Succubus is a pretty solid class - kind of like a tankier warlock/beguiller hybrid. It's also not a silly monster to play, because its designed to be disguised as a normal PC.

Mind Flayer is unplayable from low levels without specifically designing the campaign around it. You start as a Levitating Expert that can't use weapons. Mind Flayers are cool though, so there is at least justification here to use this as a chassis to tweak a little, so that it can actually serve as a viable option. How many times has someone asked you if they can play a Belker?

Ogre does what it says on the can, and is perfectly serviceable as a martial bruiser, if a fairly limited and boring one. What it does offer though is ridiculously high Strength, which should encourage you and the player to invest more attention in the DCs and damages for lifting, throwing, grappling and breaking stuff, as an Ogre can easily beat a raging half-orc barbarian, so you want to be able to demonstrate what that actually looks like mechanically. If I'm playing an Ogre, I want to be able to rip doors out of their frames and swat people with them, but I don't want to have to wait 5 minutes for the DM to work out how to do it.

The Drow progression in the appendix of DotU is good enough. Its the LA/CR of the Drow that is a bit problematic, rather than its representation as a playable character.

[AnonJr]

Side note while I have a very brief moment - might want to see if Changeling ever got republished in one of the later Monster Manuals. I know the Warforged did. Having said that, in a world with Doppelgangers it's not hard to explain how a Changeling might come about...

[Condé]

Side note while I have a very brief moment - might want to see if Changeling ever got republished in one of the later Monster Manuals. I know the Warforged did. Having said that, in a world with Doppelgangers it's not hard to explain how a Changeling might come about...

Quick answer, probably gonna edit to answer the other too. Changeling and Warforged are in MM3. Some races/monsters from this book have a paragraph titled "X in Forgotten Realms, X in Eberrons..." Sadly Changelings and Warforged do not have these. And I have never find any publication from WotC where a Changeling was in a FR setting.
So of course, your DM could always allow it. But as far as I know, there is no official text saying "You can play a Changeling in Faerûn".

But let's not slip out of topic. (I still appreciate your answer though)

[DivineOnTheMind]

A lot of the Savage Species classes are downright busted at low-level play, especially the ones frontloaded with HD.

Ghaele notably casts Cleric spells at its Ghaele class level (up to 14), has 5 levels of uninterrupted Outsider HD (perfect BA/Saves/Skills, d8 HD), gets a ton of stat boosts and defenses and a package of SLAs that includes Outsider-type Alter Self starting at level 2. It's busted until level 5, and pretty reasonable until level 9 or so, but at that point, even though its caster level keeps up for a while, its HD start to taper dangerously.

Trumpet Archon's a little jankier, and misses its first HD at level 4, but comes with built-in flight, more front-loaded stat boosts and Cleric casting that hits level 3 spells at class level 3, and only drops behind an equal-level Cleric at class level 9. Would more than happily play one until level 8.

Vrock doesn't scale well, but until level 4 is an absolute blender, gaining 5 natural weapons, Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Wis +2, telepathy, SLAs including Mirror Image. Unfortunately, the missed HD add up pretty fast after that, and are a lot less forgiving than the spellcasting outsiders.

And Savage Progressions' advancements have been called out, but I want to mention how much I've enjoyed Savage Ghost 2 a lot as a route into Master of the Unseen Hand, since it's such a cool class that's such a waste for a real caster.

[Troacctid]

I have found the feytouched/half-fey savage progression to be pretty strong. You don't actually need to take the underwhelming feytouched racial level in order to take the half-fey level, which means you're essentially getting one of the best +2 LA races in the game for only +1 LA. Feytouched without the racial level is also a pretty strong base by itself.

The shadow creature template class from D322 is also not too bad; again, the template is very powerful, which helps a lot.

One thing that I think is important to note for the ones from SS is that they are 3.0, and can't be relied upon to match up properly with the 3.5 version of the monster they're representing.

[Condé]

Mind Flayer was ranked as weak T3 - thus, can't be that hopeless

Also, Ambush Drake (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215118/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) and Ethereal Filcher (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215051/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060224a) -they're both short, have no annoying "LA levels", and Drake even have full BAB

If you talk about Mind Flayer from SS, yeah it looks interesting. But oh boy, 4HD at level 8. Good luck with that.

The ambush drake looks really promising. And fun. But you are a drake, so it is like playing an animal, a dragon or something like that. You trully are a monster. No more a humanoid or the like. Ethereal Filcher having really good abilities. Looks interesting too.


There are some subtle wording issues around these:
(1) Some (i.e. Savage Species) explicitly require that you fully advance in the monster class before doing otherwise.
(2) Some (i.e. Savage Progressions) explicitly allow you to delay taking further levels indefinitely.
(3) Some (i.e. Complete Psionic) aren't explicit about whether they are of type (1) or (2).
(4) Some (i.e. ShurikVch's examples) are for LA - monsters.

Type (1) typically require a real masochistic streak to play.

Type (2) can be pretty useful, particularly if level buyoff rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) are in play. For example, one level of Lich (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111212934/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) provides Int+2 and can be bought off after 3 levels. Similarly a level of Ghost (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111213120/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) provides undeath and incorporeality for LA+1. Another trick is starting with a Lesser Aasimar and then picking up a level in the transition class (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112024121/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) every 3 levels and buying it off. By level 9, you have Str+4, Dex+2, Con+4, Int+2, Wis+4, Cha+4, Fly = 2x land (good), spell resistance, and a boat load of SLAs.

Type (3) seems most important for the Half-Giant, since this qualifies for the Primordial template providing a tasty Int+4/Cha+4 and at-will immunity. If you can abandon the class after the first level it's even better.

Type (4) requires some heavy DM adjudication, but they look pretty solid.

Still not sure at 100% how Savage Progression works. In the same page you can find a template and a racial "class" and that is the later I'm mostly not sure about. And yes, the Aasimar sutff is nasty.
It is funny how easy you can get fly speed twice the speed of your land speed pretty easily with some Savage Progression (Half-fey, Celestial...). I mean it is not free since it gives you LA but if the LA buy-off reuls fly at your table, it can be pretty huge at early levels.


Over the years, some of my players have wanted to play monstrous races, and getting it right is an evolving process.

Succubus is a pretty solid class - kind of like a tankier warlock/beguiller hybrid. It's also not a silly monster to play, because its designed to be disguised as a normal PC.

Mind Flayer is unplayable from low levels without specifically designing the campaign around it. You start as a Levitating Expert that can't use weapons. Mind Flayers are cool though, so there is at least justification here to use this as a chassis to tweak a little, so that it can actually serve as a viable option. How many times has someone asked you if they can play a Belker?

Ogre does what it says on the can, and is perfectly serviceable as a martial bruiser, if a fairly limited and boring one. What it does offer though is ridiculously high Strength, which should encourage you and the player to invest more attention in the DCs and damages for lifting, throwing, grappling and breaking stuff, as an Ogre can easily beat a raging half-orc barbarian, so you want to be able to demonstrate what that actually looks like mechanically. If I'm playing an Ogre, I want to be able to rip doors out of their frames and swat people with them, but I don't want to have to wait 5 minutes for the DM to work out how to do it.

The Drow progression in the appendix of DotU is good enough. Its the LA/CR of the Drow that is a bit problematic, rather than its representation as a playable character.

Succubus and Mindflayer are a bit scary since you have a lot of LA so you miss a lot of hit dices and tend to be pretty weak as a result. I would be scarred to play any of these races as a player;

For the Drow part, honestly, I would prefer to play a lesser drow or, even better, be an Half-drow and take Drow Legacy. Free (****ty) Exotic Weapon Mastery (But good if you are a Warblade) you get all SLAs from being a drow. (Just buy a pair of sunglasses before going outside and you're good to go)
Sure it takes a feat, but it is probably better than having these pesky LA or be behind your friends in term of hit dices.


A lot of the Savage Species classes are downright busted at low-level play, especially the ones frontloaded with HD.

Ghaele notably casts Cleric spells at its Ghaele class level (up to 14), has 5 levels of uninterrupted Outsider HD (perfect BA/Saves/Skills, d8 HD), gets a ton of stat boosts and defenses and a package of SLAs that includes Outsider-type Alter Self starting at level 2. It's busted until level 5, and pretty reasonable until level 9 or so, but at that point, even though its caster level keeps up for a while, its HD start to taper dangerously.

Trumpet Archon's a little jankier, and misses its first HD at level 4, but comes with built-in flight, more front-loaded stat boosts and Cleric casting that hits level 3 spells at class level 3, and only drops behind an equal-level Cleric at class level 9. Would more than happily play one until level 8.

Vrock doesn't scale well, but until level 4 is an absolute blender, gaining 5 natural weapons, Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Wis +2, telepathy, SLAs including Mirror Image. Unfortunately, the missed HD add up pretty fast after that, and are a lot less forgiving than the spellcasting outsiders.

And Savage Progressions' advancements have been called out, but I want to mention how much I've enjoyed Savage Ghost 2 a lot as a route into Master of the Unseen Hand, since it's such a cool class that's such a waste for a real caster.

Did not really noticed the Ghaele. I'm curious now. 14 "Racial Class" level is a bitu much for my taste though.

I really like the Vrock as a monster and yeah, I was pretty sad to see you are going to be behind your friends pretty quickly.


I have found the feytouched/half-fey savage progression to be pretty strong. You don't actually need to take the underwhelming feytouched racial level in order to take the half-fey level, which means you're essentially getting one of the best +2 LA races in the game for only +1 LA. Feytouched without the racial level is also a pretty strong base by itself.

The shadow creature template class from D322 is also not too bad; again, the template is very powerful, which helps a lot.

One thing that I think is important to note for the ones from SS is that they are 3.0, and can't be relied upon to match up properly with the 3.5 version of the monster they're representing.

Yeah, it's a shame that the Savage Species has never been updated, it is such a nice concept. Some races need more work than other, for sure.

Half-fey is dope, not gonna lie. Not a big fan of the flavor text, it is like "I love fey. I want to be one when I grow up." *You now are half-fey*
Oh and the butterfly wings. Not a big fan either. But that's probably just me.

[vasilidor]

Generally the monster races, even the ones in the savage species, were designed (were intended to be) weaker than a normal Race/Class combo. That was the design goal, especially if you went into a caster class.
Not sure how well they succeeded in that goal.

[Condé]

Added Draegloth, from Champions of Ruin. Really easy to miss that one, not gonna lie.

[ShurikVch]

Also:

Varag (Monster Manual IV)

Dragon #326, "Born of Fire" article - 4 classes for Half-Elemental templates

Dragon #322, "Shady Characters" article - classes for Shadow Creature, the Shade, and the Umbral Creature templates