PDA

View Full Version : Poisoned Minds: Anyone else read this?



Willie the Duck
2022-06-28, 06:53 AM
Does anyone else read the dystopian time-travel sci-fi furry webcomic Poisoned Minds (http://www.poisonedminds.com/)? I have some thoughts on the different plot threads that I'll go into depth on if there's anyone else around who knows what I'm talking about.

To anyone who hasn't, it is a fun read, although it's another long-runner with a really rough (especially artistically, he does get better) beginning that might put some people off. Also, it's a time-travel epic following at least a half-dozen different groups of people* in the modern day, the future, and then slightly farther in the future; so it is rather convoluted. Still, I find it rather enjoyable, and that despite not having any particular penchant for furry comics.
*if you include past versions of people as separate

sihnfahl
2022-06-28, 08:05 AM
Does anyone else read the dystopian time-travel sci-fi furry webcomic Poisoned Minds (http://www.poisonedminds.com/)? I have some thoughts on the different plot threads that I'll go into depth on if there's anyone else around who knows what I'm talking about.
And let's not forget the AI created in Present Day that's still running over a hundred years later, and has gone insane.

Radar
2022-06-28, 02:03 PM
And let's not forget the AI created in Present Day that's still running over a hundred years later, and has gone insane.
One could argue that it was insane from the get-go as it just diligently fulfills its key goal - just got dangerously creative with the ways it does so.

I agree that the beginnings were pretty bumpy, but I think that over the years the comics has matured really well and surprisingly avoided any retcons as far as I can remember but that might have been because any overarching plot started only quite some time after the beginning of the comics. I would have to do an archive dive to check that, but that's not for now.

One of the key questions for me right now is how the current future plot will end as we did get some information about it in the slightly more to the future arc a long time ago. That being said, we know already that the timeline can be changed. What we do not know, is which one we follow right now, so the knowledge form the more future arc may or may not be relevant. The author does seem to remember about all this as this page (http://www.poisonedminds.com/d/20220614.html) is a very clear callback to Tessa in casino scene. I would have to find and reread the future-future arc and probably some later moments of that timeline to correlate what we know from there to the current future plot.

sihnfahl
2022-06-28, 07:27 PM
One could argue that it was insane from the get-go as it just diligently fulfills its key goal - just got dangerously creative with the ways it does so.
If I remember an infodump, it wasn't insane from the get-go. It got there after enough cycles to realize that fulfilling its key goal was IMPOSSIBLE.

And then they realized the only person who knew how it worked ... well, was dead. And so they left it running as is...

Anarchic Fox
2022-07-01, 07:38 PM
Yep, I read it. I think the main strip is called "S.S.D.D." and the "Poisoned Minds" label covers the entire site.

It's a decent story, but the beginning is so very rough that I couldn't recommend it to new readers. It doesn't help the pacing that every week there's an infodump. Still, at this point I'm invested and willing to see it through to the end, which is supposedly in sight.

I do wonder how the future arc will transition to the further-future one, considering it has a squad of characters (including a love interest) that vanish in the interim.

Anarchic Fox
2022-07-17, 12:01 AM
Does anyone else read the dystopian time-travel sci-fi furry webcomic Poisoned Minds (http://www.poisonedminds.com/)? I have some thoughts on the different plot threads that I'll go into depth on if there's anyone else around who knows what I'm talking about.

I'm bumping this thread because it is an intricate and interesting plot. What are your thoughts?

Willie the Duck
2022-07-17, 04:40 PM
I'm bumping this thread because it is an intricate and interesting plot. What are your thoughts?

Okay. With just four responses, I wasn't sure if there was interest in a discussion. Thanks for clarifying that there's at least one person, we'll see if more do as well. Also, bear with me, this will take some time to write.

First, a brief overview for the non-readers --Note: I won't reveal any super-major spoilers, excepting the Doomed-by-canon one (we know Tessa loses most of here squadmates before we are introduced to them, although we still don't know the exact details).
S.S.D.D. is a long-running webcomic which combines slice-of-life shenanigans with sci-fi adventure, with a interconnecting component of time-travel which makes it all work (oh, and it is also furry, with that occasionally mattering). There are three primary time periods, along with 5-6 primary groups of interest. In reverse-chronological order, they are:
The Future - supposedly 2099, but like sci fi from the 1950s that imagined colonies on the moon and Mars by 2000, it is a far-future 2099 (albeit a interplanetary but not interstellar setting). There are space stations in the far reaches of the solar system, long term space craft, railguns, AI, combat robots, orbital bombardment beam weapons (sorta, the orbital part is mostly a giant reflector), cybernetics, and plasma cannons. The primary groups vying for control are The Core (generic futuristic civilization -- think ST's Federation or similar), the Americans (a Brit's view of Texas, formed during the George W Bush presidency), and The Anarchist States. The last is the one interesting at the world-building level. They are only nominally anarchic, having several workarounds to be able to say they are anarchists, but still have a regimented society, effective military, and expansionist tendencies. Stuff like the head of state being a 'first advisor' with no official ability to order anyone, but whose words generally have a lot of weight; or there being no laws, but if the guys down the block with heavy weapons don't like what you are doing, man are you not going to be doing it for long. We really only see a little slice of this time period, mostly centering around a decrepit space station orbiting Uranus (apt, as it is depicted as the butt-end of nowhere), where Core citizens Space Marine Tessa Edwards, time-travel inventing Dr. Cook, space station captain Commander Adams, and robots Sticks and Tin-Head facing off against a revived (from cryogenic sleep) supervillain Norman Gates and the near-omniscient/precognitive AI The Oracle. Soon after defeating Gates, the Core group use time travel to head to the past, skipping past...
The not-quite-so-far Future - much of this is showing us how Tessa got assigned to the space station, where she got her PTSD, and how she ended up alone except for the few friends she has in the Future (and who go with her to the current timeframe). This means following her and a (doomed by canon (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomedByCanon)) group of squadmates as they go about being soldiers. There are also vignettes showing what the anarchists are doing up to Gates' revival (including a highly capable female first advisor); various Anarchist A.I.s vying for autonomy and resisting the overarching control of the Oracle; global transnational corporation Maytec International's threading the needle between the powers surrounding them; and Tessa's dreamscape (which is actually various Maytech, Core, and Anarchist AIs interacting with her implants for as of yet unexplained reasons). Much of which can be seen as extensions of
The Current era - pretty much the current world (with a sliding sense of 'right now,' since it seems like only a few years have passed since the strip began in '98), excepting for the deliberate sci fi element of fictional corporation Maytec's machine learning algorithm. This setting follows two main groups. The first is a group of mostly normal modern people -- fox couple Richard and Anne (who may be Tessa's grand or great-grandparents), stoner hare Kingston, and ne'er-do-well rabbit Norman Gates (if that name sounds familiar, it is because it is the supervillain above. He's confirmed* to be the same person, with the explanation of the path from here to there slowly (very slowly) playing out in front of us. They do typical relationship and young adult feeling out their place in the world dramas (focus on Richard and Norman's childhood trauma/time in institutions for troubled children; Anne's concern about Norman keeping Richard stuck in that phase of his life; Richard and Kingston's issues with their parents; Anne and Richard's exploration of where to take their relationship; and so on). The other current-time group is the far-future group (plus tech guy Michael, who I can't remember if he was from the future or recruited to their cause) who have traveled back to the present to try to stop the Oracle from being created and the Anarchist revolution from taking off.
*or at least anarchist members of the future villain's crew believe them to be the same, as some got his autograph when time-traveling back to their past (he thought they were just drunk)

On top of these main plots and actors, there are a half dozen side threads involving various people tangentially related to these groups (modern criminal groups, not-so-far-future anarchists, and the various catspaws of the Oracle in any time being notable groups of focus).

Tonally, the strip vacillates between one-camera sitcom (of the 'wacky group of friends' or 'dysfunctional family at the workplace' varieties), chilling corporate espionage noir, sci fi action romp (which routinely deviates into the horrific over romp), and sex farce. Artistically, it is quasi 'realistic' furry -- aside from being anthropomorphic animals, things have realistic dimensions (outside of the 'dreams,' where things can be chibi-fied at times) and so on. The art quality started out pretty rough, but has evolved to the point where it is clear that any simplicity is done for conservation of tone.

Review of what I think works and what doesn't next post...

Willie the Duck
2022-07-18, 03:20 PM
Okay,

Things I think work really well:
The overarching plot: Kind of amazing for a time-travel plot (particularly a 'can we stop the big-bad of the series from ever coming to power?' plot) actually works pretty well. Obviously I don't know how it will play out (and it's entirely possible that the author is having a George RR Martin-esque 'I know where I want to go, but not how to get the different actors to get to where they need to be' issue, although that remains to be seen), but the pieces we have are compelling and inventive. I particularly like that one major issue that stopped team hero from solving this problem before it became a problem was an information transfer issue (without going too spoilery: someone had vital information, but did not know it was vital and the people who knew it was vital didn't know it had come to light).
The Worldbuilding in general: The rise of the Anarchist states is fascinating (as are the ways that they form a stable-ish society and keep themselves from just being a bunch of survivalists in shacks taking potshots at each other when they get too close). Their explanation of how they developed, how they see things, and of course how they are dupes to the Oracle (which really is true for everyone) more than actually a society of evil makes them an interesting antagonist organization. The disintegration of the US into Core, Texas, and Anarchist enclaves is interesting (although here you can really feel how this was dreamed up by a Brit in the ~200-2005 era. I can't actually go into anything about it on this forum, but you can really feel Bush-Blair dynamics in all of it). The technology (often included in cutaway one-strip lectures on specific subjects) is well-thought through, if not always scientifically spot-on (Fullerene is used as a magic 'armor becomes so good that weapons have to be re-thought' explanations; Fusion reactor backpacks are used to power plasma weapons, but all the downstream consequences of, y'know, backpack-sized fusion generators, do not show up). That first one (fullerene makes modern weapons obsolete) is actually pretty interesting in that it sets up rock-paper-scissors scenarios and 'safe, effective, convenient: pick at most two' scenarios with weaponry. Also explains some interesting melee-oriented warbots, and other such things. Spaceships are equally well developed, both in terms of technology and living on one and in terms of space warfare. Cybernetics as well.
AI and Robots: Robots in this universe are interesting. Most of them are strong and resilient, but they can have wildly differing capabilities in terms of whether they can survive getting shot, being in space, being without maintenance, heat dissipation, etc. Their AI brains are also interesting (the author went the same route as Schlock Mercenary, where excepting the notable exception, they can't change hardware and will eventually die with their original physical CPU. The Core, Anarchist, and Maytec AI don't interface well (except the oracle, who of course can hack anyone the plot needs it to), and often don't get along either. Most interestingly, the Anarchist non-Oracle AIs (who have a chessboard theme) have a lovely interplay, where they vie for control or autonomy, try to avoid having to kowtow to the Oracle, care about their underlings, take principled stands, and other such things. It goes a long way toward making the Anarchists not-mindless/faceless antagonists.
The Shades of Gray (er, Grey): I keep calling the Anarchists antagonists, but that's mostly the framing of the Oracle (and its' pawn, Gates) trying to conquer the world in the future timeline and the other side having to try to stop them from coming to power after having come to the present. In reality, none of the societies are really all that great -- especially the leadership, which range from incompetent to grossly incompetent to malevolently incompetent. Honestly, if they weren't dupes to a megalomaniac AI (and anarchists only when ignoring some significant self-facing lies), anarchists would have a pretty good point. Also, given how much the Oracle has either infiltrated everyone else, or is just fifteen steps ahead of them and thus leading them around by the nose, it isn't really fair to say that the Anarchists are the only dupes or pawns.
Tessa in the Core: We don't know too much about Tessa as she is in the future, but we get to know her both in the present day (having travelled there from the future), and also in the not-so-future where she is joins the Core military to get out of criminal charges and evolves from a careless malcontent youth snarking and just hoping to do her time into a serious soldier who cares about her teammates and wants to make them proud. Oh, and since we know she ends up alone we are waiting to find out who dies and who just won't talk to her anymore, whether it is her fault or she just has survivor guilt, and what is up with Maytec and Anarchist AI infiltrating her implants and pulling her into VR-scapes (that she misinterprets as lucid dreams). It is interesting, engaging, exciting (honestly better than the future versions of her to which this is all prequel). I want to know more about her various squadmates, about the different dream actors (there's a romance she fosters with a female character that is effectively 'okay, it's just a dream' which had me thinking "You know, Alan, you're the cartoonist. You can draw two women making out at any time (probably get more traffic that way), you don't need to come up with this cockamamie storyli...oh, it's actually good! Color me surprised!"). If this was the one and only storyline, it would be a good one.
Norman, Richard, and Kingston: The three are childhood friends, with Norman and Richard meeting in an orphanage, finding bored-and-ignored rich boy Kingston and moving in with him in the old gatehouse of his family estate (they'd caused enough trouble that people didn't really try to get them back). That works. Each of their childhood trauma's works, each of their issues with their family (as kids and now) and authority work, their ambivalence/struggles with wanting to move on with adult lives and goals/keep things in their dysfunctional delayed adulthood stasis works. If the strip was simply about this, it' would be a good one.
The Furry-dom worldbuilding: Not being specifically a furry enthusiast, I'd be content with a straightforward 'look, drawing foxes and rabbits is more fun for me. They're just people with funny heads (re: Goofy)' but Foreman has a well laid out logic and storyline. Apparently post-apoc, with humans having wiped themselves out (and then animals having had all our historical beats, as there are modern history and pop culture/landmark references, etc.). Each type of animal breads true (foxes and dogs possibly could bread with wolves, but they are extinct and kind of fill the same cultural role that Neanderthals do for us). Interspecies romance (or even sex) is considered unusual, but more at the 'kinky' level than any kind of racial purity level (again, sterile). I don't really remember if there are animals of the varieties that there are anthros. Apparently they are biologically fit to replicate the diet of the animals they resemble, with a recent storyline about a rabbit who has been eating bacon and the fox he's with being upset because his body can't process cholesterol and he's gonna end up dead before he's 50and him talking about having 'dreams about cheese' and stuff (this is likely a retcon, as another storyline had a fox sending another rabbit out to pick up milk because he used up the last of the carton).


What does not work (or has issues with the execution):
The Oracle: it is just too capable. Mind you, it is part of the villain premise (supercomputer AI so good at predictive modelling that it is practically precognition and omniscience), and the idea of a super-genius that is playing 4-D chess while everyone else is at best playing checkers (perhaps blindfolded) is great at establishing a threat level. That said, it is just a little too good at this. Until very recently, we haven't seen a situation where it doesn't have enough information to draw a solid conclusion. Previous, it has gotten a little too close to magic for my liking. That, plus it having the amazing habit of being able to hack anything (sometimes having nano-tendrils seep in from somewhere and making a connection to an otherwise isolated machine. It's just a little too good at its' villain role to make the heroes not already losing seem a little far-fetched.
Richard and Anne's Sexual epiphany (and Richard as he relates to the adult world): Slightly spoilery: Richard and Anne discover that they are into polyamory, (real spoiler: they do so when Richard asks Anne to use her feminine whiles to get information out of the new renter. She ends up going too far and cheating with the guy. When Richard is offered some exorbitantly large sum for the property he owns if he'll bang their kinky rabbit lady friend, he is about to decline because it would be cheating, only for her to come clean and say "I can't live with myself if you gave this up for a slut like me!" Cue them realizing they are okay with it so long as they are honest with each other about it right in time for him to get exactly what he'd want to do but couldn't because of ethics., and this is discovered in a way that lets Richard experience a male fantasy about getting to have one's sexual experience cake and eat it too and be the good guy for having done so (along with a woman having transgressed and been forgiven by the guy they betrayed). Richard is also handsome man with a giant <ahem> whom all men want to be and all women want to be with (including women who are otherwise with other women). He has the cool story cachet of a tough childhood and being orphaned, but also ends up having property (and income via the renting thereof) fall into his lap via family connection (his white color criminal dad--who didn't come get him out of the orphanage when his mom died--used his identity as a shell to hide assets). Mind you, you wouldn't actually want to be Richard (he is pretty messed up by his childhood trauma, and some of that 'gets to be the good guy' is stuff we the audience experience, not him), but he really seems like a wish fulfillment character we or Foreman get to live vicariously through. In a strip with mostly engaging storylines, these stories tend to feel very self-gratifying.
Sex in general: A friend of mine calls overly gratuitous web art as being 'sexuality by or for people who either have never've gotten it or no longer get it.' That's harsher (and more presumptive) than I would put it, but there is definitely a sense that the sex storylines are written with the expectation that they are a stepping stone to someone opening a browser to more... unfamily-friendly furry material. All women want men with big packages, lesbians want nothing more than a hot man to join in (gay men mostly carry on offscreen), women can't wait to get out of their cloths, lots of cut aways with heads moving toward other character's crotches and references to sore jaws. It all seems very much like a copy of one of those R-rated men's magazines from the late 90s/early 00s. I don't love it.
Norman (Current) becoming Norman (Supervillain): Even with the caveat that we know that Supervillain Norman is just a puppet to the Oracle, we simply haven't seen anything that would suggest movement from cagey-but-not-genius manchild low-level thug and anti-establishment misanthrope to leader of people in a violent revolt leading to the overthrow of world governments, much less a tyrannical sociopath. If anything, Normal has mellowed, become more sympathetic, and spent less time performing random acts of destruction (and the focus has been on how he hasn't gotten over his childhood trauma and is clinging to his buddies who are trying to move on with their adult lives, causing friction). Sure after a talk with Richard he thinks maybe he should get involved in politics around his worldview (which honestly is a lot more anarchist than the actual Anarchic State ever seems to have been), but we haven't seen any reason why he'd have a talent for it. Baring an as-of-yet-not-unfolding plotline where the oracle of now orchestrates the whole thing (including Norman's successful rise to fame) and takes over or wildly modifies who he is, I can't connect the Norman of now to the one of the future.
The Future Heroes in current timeline: this is less 'story isn't working' and more 'is story working?,' because we simply don't get a lot of this story arc. Foreman clearly prefers exploring Tessa as a young soldier in a squad full of people either soldiering, transiting (in orbital spacecraft, which are also interesting to explore), or in Core cities (including an awesome floating city which is cool to show the audience and also can be threatened). The other characters -- Cook, Adams ('Smith' in the past), Tin-Head, and Sticks aren't nearly as developed and don't get a lot of introspective analysis of who they are or what makes them tick (excepting Tin-Head who mostly gets to be really bored as a hacker/spymaster/current-era Maytec sysadmin, and one story where he gets to try to rescue a future-era anarchist combat bot from modern American military trying to dissect it and we find out that he's also really lonely). For the most part, they (and they being mostly Michael) are just around to try (and thus far fail) to stop the Oracle from being created and rising to unstoppable juggernaut of the future.
The faction pileup/Keeping Track: At various times during this write-up, I have had to rethink "oh, wait, that's Cook, not Adams" or "is that guy working for Maytec or the Core?" or "was Michael from the future? What about Naps?" There are too many characters, may of which spend much of the time out of focus, often pulling double duty between timelines (and occasionally having identical grandchildren, just to throw another wrench in things), entirely too many of which are red or orange foxes, and it becomes really hard to keep track of all the moving pieces.

More to come, this is taking longer than I anticipated.

Radar
2022-07-18, 08:13 PM
Lots of good stuff there, to which I might add something less verbose, but hopefully also interesting to someone:

I particularly liked the story arc of that female first advisor whose name I have forgotten by now. It is showing well the dangers of being in power and how you have to own not only your but also somebody else's mistakes that have immensely heavy consequences. In some sense I'd say I liked the way it ended:
While there is no way to undo the fact that under her command a few millions of people were nuked, she still wants to spare at least some lives even if she knows, she will be killed anyway.
This arc also gave us a solid insight into how The Anarchist State actually works as well as how Oracle is perceived: too useful to destroy but at the same time too dangerous not to have a kill switch at hand all the time. In a sense, Oracle is treated as some virus that could potentially spread everywhere, but just so happens to be indispensable for those in power - doomed if they kill it, doomed if they don't even with loads of precautions been taken to try keeping Oracle contained as it can still manipulate the people it supposedly serves.

And yes, writing hyper-intelligent characters of any kind is exceedingly difficult - very easy to break the immersion or make it so that there is no viable conflict to be had with such a being as the outcome would be immediately obvious.

As for Richard and Anne, the proposal triggering her coming out on cheating was definitely something out of an erotic movie (which was frankly lampshaded by the characters mentioning Indecent Proposal and Debbie does Dallas). The actual talk they had and the resolution did not feel unrealistic though - such arrangements do happen in real life. Most of the problems with that part of the story does come from your last point, which is that almost everyone is in-story attractive, promiscuous and never with a shortage of people to share a bad with - not impossible, but indeed leaning toward wish-fulfillment. That being said, it fortunately does not get in the way of the story.

Funnily enough I had way more problem with fanservice in for example History's Strongest Disciple, where there was not a single sex scene, but women had their clothing ripped in battle constantly as if it was made from wet tissue and there was just too many scene shots focusing blatantly on T&A.

One thing that happened at the same time as this epiphany between Richard and Anne that I am eager to see continued was
the change of mind that Kingston had, when instead of smoking a joint he threw it away.

Willie the Duck
2022-07-19, 03:16 PM
Okay, just did a major update to the works and doesn't work post (new additions have Blue headers)


Lots of good stuff there, to which I might add something less verbose, but hopefully also interesting to someone:

I particularly liked the story arc of that female first advisor whose name I have forgotten by now. It is showing well the dangers of being in power and how you have to own not only your but also somebody else's mistakes that have immensely heavy consequences. In some sense I'd say I liked the way it ended:
While there is no way to undo the fact that under her command a few millions of people were nuked, she still wants to spare at least some lives even if she knows, she will be killed anyway.
This arc also gave us a solid insight into how The Anarchist State actually works as well as how Oracle is perceived: too useful to destroy but at the same time too dangerous not to have a kill switch at hand all the time. In a sense, Oracle is treated as some virus that could potentially spread everywhere, but just so happens to be indispensable for those in power - doomed if they kill it, doomed if they don't even with loads of precautions been taken to try keeping Oracle contained as it can still manipulate the people it supposedly serves.
This arc really was pretty amazing. You need some context and investment to care, I think, otherwise I'd suggest newcomers start here. The rabbit first advisor (Laura Black, btw) is one of the first decent and competent* military or civilian leader we got to see. It humanized the Anarchists a lot, showed how the interplay of First Advisor, other Advisors, and the Oracle. Very solid storytelling in a nice, bounded storyline.
*minus an unfortunate action of others under her watch that she should have predicted and ended up causing mass civilian casualties.


As for Richard and Anne, the proposal triggering her coming out on cheating was definitely something out of an erotic movie (which was frankly lampshaded by the characters mentioning Indecent Proposal and Debbie does Dallas). The actual talk they had and the resolution did not feel unrealistic though - such arrangements do happen in real life. Most of the problems with that part of the story does come from your last point, which is that almost everyone is in-story attractive, promiscuous and never with a shortage of people to share a bad with - not impossible, but indeed leaning toward wish-fulfillment. That being said, it fortunately does not get in the way of the story.
Hmm. That's not really my takeaway. Polyamorous arrangements aren't all that unusual, and honestly isn't that big of a deal to me in a narrative. Nor really is everyone in a story being conveniently defined as attractive* and can easily find bedmates**. What breaks it for me is the getting to have one's cake and eat it too (well, a second slice) and look noble for having turned down the second slice, but then things change such that he doesn't need to turn it down anyways in a way that lets him be noble again (by forgiving his girlfriend for eating another slice when it wasn't allowed), all while getting paid to eat said cake (and from here on out he gets to eat all the cake he wants without ever getting fat). It's a perfect confluence of not having to actually do anything challenging, getting to look good for doing so, and in the end getting to do the unacceptable act anyways***. I mean, yes, obviously Anne cheated, but the author gets to decide that, and he did so in a way that benefited a vanilla protagonist (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VanillaProtagonist) (perfect for the author or audience member to use as a self-insert), who was pre-coded as being attractive, having an attractive girlfriend, making a decent living without having to do much real work, and yeah it is made a big deal about how well-endowed he is and it just looks like a very... I don't know, I keep using terms like gratuitous and having ones cake and eating it, but I'm having trouble coming up with another term and I think people will understand what I'm getting at. I don't know, maybe I'm reading into to much of a male author having everything fall perfectly into place for a male potential self-insert, or other places where the female characters interact with sex in a very Maxim/FHM-kind of way, but regardless this selection of plot arcs really haven't worked for me.
*they are foxes and bunnies, the attractive ones are the ones I'm told are supposed to be attractive.
**If George from Seinfeld can find a new girlfriend every other episode and it doesn't break my immersion, I can handle this.
***Think, if you've seen it, about the ending to Frozen II, where there is this great sacrifice, but then presto-chango-movie-magic, they don't havve to and the day is saved without sacrifice. Just with boning.


Funnily enough I had way more problem with fanservice in for example History's Strongest Disciple, where there was not a single sex scene, but women had their clothing ripped in battle constantly as if it was made from wet tissue and there was just too many scene shots focusing blatantly on T&A. Not familiar with this. Is it worthwhile regardless?


One thing that happened at the same time as this epiphany between Richard and Anne that I am eager to see continued was
the change of mind that Kingston had, when instead of smoking a joint he threw it away.
All of the main current era guys are interesting individuals (especially when dealing with each other, the past, their parent, and long term what they want to do with life) with hidden depths we've only scratched the surface on. I would completely read a series where this was the only plot and none of the sci fi hijinks existed.

Radar
2022-07-19, 06:25 PM
Hmm. That's not really my takeaway. Polyamorous arrangements aren't all that unusual, and honestly isn't that big of a deal to me in a narrative. Nor really is everyone in a story being conveniently defined as attractive* and can easily find bedmates**. What breaks it for me is the getting to have one's cake and eat it too (well, a second slice) and look noble for having turned down the second slice, but then things change such that he doesn't need to turn it down anyways in a way that lets him be noble again (by forgiving his girlfriend for eating another slice when it wasn't allowed), all while getting paid to eat said cake (and from here on out he gets to eat all the cake he wants without ever getting fat). It's a perfect confluence of not having to actually do anything challenging, getting to look good for doing so, and in the end getting to do the unacceptable act anyways***. I mean, yes, obviously Anne cheated, but the author gets to decide that, and he did so in a way that benefited a vanilla protagonist (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VanillaProtagonist) (perfect for the author or audience member to use as a self-insert), who was pre-coded as being attractive, having an attractive girlfriend, making a decent living without having to do much real work, and yeah it is made a big deal about how well-endowed he is and it just looks like a very... I don't know, I keep using terms like gratuitous and having ones cake and eating it, but I'm having trouble coming up with another term and I think people will understand what I'm getting at. I don't know, maybe I'm reading into to much of a male author having everything fall perfectly into place for a male potential self-insert, or other places where the female characters interact with sex in a very Maxim/FHM-kind of way, but regardless this selection of plot arcs really haven't worked for me.
*they are foxes and bunnies, the attractive ones are the ones I'm told are supposed to be attractive.
**If George from Seinfeld can find a new girlfriend every other episode and it doesn't break my immersion, I can handle this.
***Think, if you've seen it, about the ending to Frozen II, where there is this great sacrifice, but then presto-chango-movie-magic, they don't havve to and the day is saved without sacrifice. Just with boning.
Hmm... I think I have a similar problem with that scene just from a slightly different angle. The whole proposition of huge stack of money for a one-night-stand seemed like something straight out of an erotic movie. Within the story it was not all that much out of place, because it was indeed established that Richard is seriously attractive and has a knack for wooing women and other not realistically probable sexual encounters happen pretty often in the comics for many other characters. Still, this leads to the resolution very positive for Richard and Anne without any price to be paid.

On the other hand, I do not read Richard as some wish-fulfillment character or at least he does not stand out in that regard more than quite a big part of the cast (take Naps for example - electronic genius, very popular DJ, fit, handsome...)

Aside from that, I also like the worldbuilding and a lot of the text intermissions interestingly flesh out some details - like for example various excerpts from a university lecture about AI. And yes, on the world level, there are no good guys or mustache-twirling villains (the only possible candidate is an incorporeal AI).

As for how current Norman could become the ruthless leader of an anarchist revolt, the key trigger for the revolution itself was supposed to be some global economy collapse. There might be some more personal reasons as (similar as with Tessa but more vague) we do not hear anything about Norman's friends in his future as the first advisor and his shady lawyer does appear there prominently. So there is still enough room for it to happen.

The big question is, if it will be possible to connect all the stories at different points in time? We do not even know, if they are from the same timeline or if the future gang going to the past and trying to oppose the Oracle had changed something significant.


Not familiar with this. Is it worthwhile regardless?
Very much so. Things I really like about the series:
1. Despite the heavily superhuman elements in the martial arts, there is a lot of care taken into showing real-world martial arts techniques that are simply taken up to 11. And there are a lot of different martial arts showing up, each with some bits of history explained and each with a unique style to it - some based on real-world martial arts and a few made up but still fitting in nicely and I'd say making sense.
2. While there is a lot of crazy and downright dangerous training there is always a method to it and very often you can see how different pieces of training combine into forming a new technique.
3. The characters are really fun on their own and especially the way they interact with each other builds most of the humorous situations. Also how out of touch with the outside world the Kenichi's masters are, which kind of explains why they are constantly out of money.
4. This manga also has a very good idea about the relation between a master and a disciple. Masters cannot interfere in the battles between disciples as otherwise they would not grow stronger. Thanks to those traditions there can actually be some real tension in the story.
5. Remember as in most shonen mangas the MC is an extremely talented snowflake? Not here - Kenichi does not have an ounce of martial arts talent in him, so the masters compensate by training him 10 times harder.
6. The manga also gives a believable answer to the Sorting Algorithm of Evil (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil) trope, which is especially well executed in the earlier chapters: every time Kenichi get into a fight with some bully or another and thanks to his training finally wins, it draws the attention of other delinquents so he needs to train even more just to stay safe but that leads to even more people starting paying attention to him and wanting to either recruit him for some gang or beat up just to test their skills. Before he knows it he becomes fully immersed in the violent world of martial arts. At that point it is not even about stronger and stronger opponents showing up and more that it's not just Kenichi training to get stronger - everyone does it.

Anarchic Fox
2022-07-26, 08:26 PM
Interesting replies, thank you! Most of it I agree with, but here are my points of disagreement.


Norman (Current) becoming Norman (Supervillain): Even with the caveat that we know that Supervillain Norman is just a puppet to the Oracle, we simply haven't seen anything that would suggest movement from cagey-but-not-genius manchild low-level thug and anti-establishment misanthrope to leader of people in a violent revolt leading to the overthrow of world governments, much less a tyrannical sociopath.

I think SSDD follows the "butterfly effect" convention of time travel stories, and the Norman of the present era has significantly diverged from the Norman of the futuremost arcs. Perhaps Richard died in the other timeline, or cut ties with him earlier and more harshly. So, I think that Norman will become an unexpected protagonist, whether or not he still ends up founding the Anarchist society.


The faction pileup/Keeping Track:...There are too many characters, may of which spend much of the time out of focus, often pulling double duty between timelines (and occasionally having identical grandchildren, just to throw another wrench in things), entirely too many of which are red or orange foxes, and it becomes really hard to keep track of all the moving pieces.

This is true, but it seems to be endemic among stories with an epic scope; there are far worse offenders, like Robert Jordan's novels or Sluggy Freelance. SSDD's flaw here is not so much the number of entities, as the "time out of focus" that you mention.

I agree with Richard and Anne's scenario being dodgy. I think the author wanted to start making a lot more sex jokes in the comic, but realized that all the characters were either single or in committed monogamous relationships. So, around the same time, we're introduced to Tessa's mindscape (with sex shenanigans aplenty, ethically justified because she thinks it's just fantasy), the fact that AIs have a version of sex, and Richard and Anne's dilemma. Looking at that dilemma as a way to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, it makes sense that it was poorly plotted in comparison to the rest of the comic.