3.5e Deities & Moving to Other Crystal Spheres

[KoDT69]

So I was looking at some old campaigns and one I remember fondly I had a Cleric of Saint Cuthbert from AD&D Greyhawk. During the time in the Forgotten Realms when Cyric was killing other gods and stealing their power, the Goddess Tymora had become a target. I don't remember the storyline justification but somehow she was being locked down or something but was able to send a call for help across the phlogiston that made it to Saint Cuthbert who used some of his power to send my Cleric as his gesture of support. In exchange Tymora granted my spells, somehow granting me the same powers I had before and I had gained favor with her Clerics as well.

Anyway, it was a great campaign and through some major misunderstanding with Tymora's Clerics, Tymora sponsored my Cleric for ascension for 2 reasons.
1. The mortals of the realm, taking lead from the Tymora's Clerics, believed that my character WAS a mortal version of the god that was helping their goddess and he gained actual true worshippers in his own right.
2. The deal was in exchange for helping her from whatever the issue (don't remember sorry) that Saint Cuthbert would send a spark of his divinity that Tymora would help to establish him in the Forgotten Realms. Cyric, being salty and evil, was able to divert his spark away, and it landed in a burgeoning crystal sphere.

So short story long, in 3.5e, what are the actual rules for a deity to cross spheres? I know their powers and influence are contained, but here are some questions:
1. Could a deity send an Avatar to another sphere that would maybe lose the divine rank but still be a powerful mortal?
2. Would a deity necessarily know the concept of crystal spheres?
3. What could happen with Cuthbert's spark? Could it form a new copy of him in the new setting? If he were the highest rank power, would he gain the ability to forge the new world?

I was just thinking that my next game will take place in the newly forming world as deities are still coming into power and new races forming.

[Tzardok]

3.x did completely away with the concept of crystal spheres. In it, the conceit is that every setting has its own cosmology, and same name deities in, for example, the Great Wheel and the Great Tree are copies of each other that don't influence each other.

If I were you, I would stay with the 2e interpretation of the setting, as the whole concept is already based on that and it makes crossovers much easier (it's also not a clumsy retcon).

Now to the meat of the questions.

1. Theoretically yes, but there would always be a part of the divinity still in there. It would propably be closer to an aspect than an avatar. Practically the gods aren't supposed to directly act on the mortal realm that way (at least not without worshippers summoning the avatar/aspect); that's what they have clerics for, after all.

2. I would say yes. Any deity but the youngest has propably directed it's attentions to the borders of the sphere before, and any but the most remote spheres has propably seen spelljammers passing through. Besides, from the Outer Planes the spheres and the phlogiston are propably easier to see.

3. A lost spark of divinity in a new born world. Sounds like a fun adventure idea, but it sounds more fun if it is an older sphere where there are beings that could interact with it (and could try to take it for themselves).
If the sphere has an overgod, that one will decide what happens with it. If let alone, it could evolve into something, but that would propably not be an exact copy of Cuthbert. It would be similiar to him in powers and portfolio, but would be changed by the circumstances of its awakening.
Or Cuthbert tracks it down and starts to populate the new sphere with his worshippers. Who knows?

[JoshuaZ]

This sort of thing really doesn't have hard and fast rules especially even if you weren't already playing with a narrative that seems to mix 3e/3.5 and 2e. Make up some guidelines that fit with what you want. If you are running the new campaign and players don't mind, then that should be fine.

[afroakuma]

I have a whole thread for this sort of question. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616081-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VIII) Just saying :smalltongue:


So short story long, in 3.5e, what are the actual rules for a deity to cross spheres? I know their powers and influence are contained, but here are some questions:
1. Could a deity send an Avatar to another sphere that would maybe lose the divine rank but still be a powerful mortal?

It's up to the overdeity of that sphere to allow this, and in most cases they would not without some kind of justification. For example, the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons dispatched avatars to Toril when the Imaskari kidnapped their worshippers. A very powerful aspect on the other hand would be allowed full stop.

In general, a deity reaches a new crystal sphere by having some of their worshippers enter that crystal sphere. That allows a deity to act through their representatives in limited capacity. As their faith grows, they can petition the overdeity to let them operate fully inside that sphere. In most cases, the answer is a blanket "yes;" Ao of Realmspace has some basic rules about no two deities controlling the same portfolio within the same region of worship, but otherwise is usually cool to rubber-stamp applicants. The unknown overdeity of Greyspace doesn't get involved at all as far as we can tell. The Highgod of Krynnspace, conversely, says a very very hard "no" to any interloper deities.


2. Would a deity necessarily know the concept of crystal spheres?

In most cases, explicitly so. The novel Tymora's Luck (which deals with a bit of Forgotten Realms, a bit of Dragonlance, a bit of Spelljammer, and a lot of Planescape) explicitly has Lathander and Chauntea talking about the crystal spheres. Baghtru probably doesn't, but Baghtru is


3. What could happen with Cuthbert's spark?

Couple of things could happen.

• It could establish itself as St. Cuthbert in that sphere with the overdeity's permission and start accruing followers. Once that happens, the original St. Cuthbert would become aware and, as their belief flows to him, he gains access to the sphere and reconnects with his spark.

• It could establish itself as St. Cuthbert, but follow different beliefs from the inhabitants of that sphere, substantially enough that the original St. Cuthbert would not want the associated worship because it would change his own nature, and thus the two would become separate deities. In most cases this involves one of them (the new one) changing their commonly used name.

• It could fuse with an existing local deity or proto-divine individual (a powerful hero, for instance) to form a new deity that is not St. Cuthbert but has some of his qualities.

• It could be absorbed by something else (an object of power, a place of power, a creature of power) and become an artifact, a magical site, or some kind of legendary beast.

• If the local gods are unfavorably disposed toward it, they might trap and isolate it on the Material Plane to prevent it from doing any of the above. Extinguishing it wholesale would be dangerous on a populated world, but trapping it in a crystal or an artifact is not out of the cards. Could make a fun quest to go free the lost divinity.


If he were the highest rank power, would he gain the ability to forge the new world?

No. The overdeity sets that permission and Cuthbert doesn't possess the portfolio of creation.

[KoDT69]

Thanks for all the great replies so far! It's been since about 1999 since that campaign ended and real life prevented us from doing the next one that I had assumed would be dealing with that divine spark redirection. I always thought it would be cool to pick it back up but sadly 2 of the original real world people have died since then, and many have moved across the country (from Ohio out to Colorado, and like 4 all went together) so I'd be playing with totally new players not quite invested in the story in the same way.

Now to make sure I got this right:
I forgot about the whole Outer Planes being the deities' home turf thing. It does make sense to be easier to see the other crystal spheres and the phlogiston from outer planes under the old Cosmic Wheel setup. I am still wondering if there was a mechanic for seeing "outside of the plane they are currently on" or was it more akin to just climbing Mount Olympus, looking around, and like they could just see that stuff off in the distance? Or would it be more like the deities are just aware of their boundaries of influence and can just kinda remote view existence because they are deities?

If the spark were to simply form a new Cuthbert in the new sphere, would it just kinda link him and have a duality of existing in 2 world's at the same time? Would the original Cuthbert increase in power in any way for establishing this second copy?

So I never really looked into the 3rd edition cosmology past "oh here's a list of gods in the PHB, they must be a standard set that influence all game settings". So is it that each copy of Kord for example, is effectively just an alternate reality copy in each different setting now? Does 3.5e have a way to get from Grayspace to Krynnspace?

Being that I've only ever dealt with a campaign setting crossover, and in AD&D, I never really looked into this stuff before.

[Tzardok]

Thanks for all the great replies so far! It's been since about 1999 since that campaign ended and real life prevented us from doing the next one that I had assumed would be dealing with that divine spark redirection. I always thought it would be cool to pick it back up but sadly 2 of the original real world people have died since then, and many have moved across the country (from Ohio out to Colorado, and like 4 all went together) so I'd be playing with totally new players not quite invested in the story in the same way.

Now to make sure I got this right:
I forgot about the whole Outer Planes being the deities' home turf thing. It does make sense to be easier to see the other crystal spheres and the phlogiston from outer planes under the old Cosmic Wheel setup. I am still wondering if there was a mechanic for seeing "outside of the plane they are currently on" or was it more akin to just climbing Mount Olympus, looking around, and like they could just see that stuff off in the distance? Or would it be more like the deities are just aware of their boundaries of influence and can just kinda remote view existence because they are deities?

Deities have very strong senses (sight, hearing, touch and smell at a few miles range) and can project those senses from any place or object consecrated to them, any worshipper and any place where their name was spoken within the last few hours.

They also have a general awareness of stuff falling into their portfolio on material worlds where they are worshipped. To give an example, Tempus feels any battle on Faerûn a bunch of weeks before and after it happens, with certain exceptions for internal matters of Chult and the area dominated by the Mulhorandi gods.



If the spark were to simply form a new Cuthbert in the new sphere, would it just kinda link him and have a duality of existing in 2 world's at the same time? Would the original Cuthbert increase in power in any way for establishing this second copy?

That's afroakuma's first scenario. It would result in the two again becoming one, as the differences aren't big enough to motivate them into seperate existence. Cuthbert being established in another world would give him opportunities for amassing more power, but it is unsure wether it would be enough grant additional divine ranks.

It should be noted that on the Outer Planes a deity has its highest rank. So for example, if the new "fork" of Cuthbert would establish enough worshippers to count as a lesser god in the new world, Cuthbert himself in his divine realm in Arcadia remains an intermediate god because that's what he is on Greyhawk. If the new fork managed to instead become a greater god, Cuthbert on Arcadia would be a greater god too.

Imagine crystal spheres as internet forums. Cuthbert has an account on greyspace.net. In this scenario, he gets another account on newspace.net. The guy in his chair stays the same (at first), he just gets more opportunities and experiences.


So I never really looked into the 3rd edition cosmology past "oh here's a list of gods in the PHB, they must be a standard set that influence all game settings". So is it that each copy of Kord for example, is effectively just an alternate reality copy in each different setting now? Does 3.5e have a way to get from Grayspace to Krynnspace?

That's a bit of a missunderstanding regarding the standard gods. 3.x discontinued most settings, and those that remained it wanted to seperate more strongly. Greyhawk was chosen as "the standard" and so they took Greyhawk gods as the mainstay. The Great Wheel was changed to be completely a Greyhawk thing, and the Forgotten Realms got their own cosmology, that Great Tree thing. Kord isn't supposed to be in all settings, just in Greyhawk. It's just that if you aren't somewhere specific, you are automatically in Greyhawk in 3.x.

Of course, crossovers had been part of the history, and no matter how much they wanted, they couldn't just retcon them all away. So the Plane of Shadow was added as a new (but a lot more perilious and uncertain) connection between multiverses.