Concerned about my wizards hp

[Sir-Carlos]

So, I decided to play a Wizard for the first time, because my Fighter died. I chose Bladesinger as my subclass and put my highest score in Intelligence, my second-highest in Dex and my third-highest in Con.

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem? I haven’t played the character yet, so I can still make changes. I am concerned that I will spend way too much time on the floor.

[ff7hero]

Bladesingers are Wizards first, front liners far second. You'll spend most of your time standing back and using typical Wizard tricks.

You can occasionally act as an "off tank" in an encounter that your main front line is having trouble with, using Bladesong and Booming Blade to get your AC up and lock a melee brute to you.

[Rukelnikov]

So, I decided to play a Wizard for the first time, because my Fighter died. I chose Bladesinger as my subclass and put my highest score in Intelligence, my second-highest in Dex and my third-highest in Con.

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem? I haven’t played the character yet, so I can still make changes. I am concerned that I will spend way too much time on the floor.


Bladesingers are Wizards first, front liners far second. You'll spend most of your time standing back and using typical Wizard tricks.

You can occasionally act as an "off tank" in an encounter that your main front line is having trouble with, using Bladesong and Booming Blade to get your AC up and lock a melee brute to you.

This is a common conception, which while I agree works, I don't think it's necessary (though with your stats it may be)

I think most people go Bladesinger in order to be gishes, and if that's your case OP, don't worry about "what'd be most effective?", or feel bad for spending all your magic to buff yourself (no one blames the fighter for not going cleric to buff the rest of the party) Spend all your magic in self buffing if you need to, Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blur, all grant you great survivavility, IMO more than most martials by lvl 6 onwards. However, do note that 12 Con IS very low for a frontliner that will have to make Concentration checks when taking damage, even if your half feat was Res(Con), you'll still need to improve them, either by raising Con or getting Warcaster for advantage on your saves, this means you'll be starved for ASI's more than usual, since you really need to buff that base survivability, which will in turn mean you will have to wait on raising your Dex/Int, which also adds to your survivability.

I'm not saying it won't work, but if you are a bit unlucky, it'll be tough.

[Dualight]

Another way of improving you durability would be to chase the magic item that sets you Constitution to 19, the amulet of health. Assuming that your DM allows you any say in what magic items can be obtained, of course. It is a rare magic item, so it might take a while before you'd be allowed to get it, but it would work very well for you.

[Leon]

Low Con + Smallest HD = Low HP. You can make anything work but your just going to have to be careful with how you go about it.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, 12 Con sucks for a Bladesinger: the lower your HD the more you care about Constitution and Wizards have the lowest. I generally want 16 though I'll wing 14 if I must. However,
Bladesinger is the class that most benefits of high stats in the game. Thus, you don't want to give up your 18 Int or 16 Dex; those are the reason you go Bladesinger at all. Thus you'll have to make do.

The good news is that you're a Wizard and the class has just the spell: False Life lets you convert spell slots to HP at a decent rate. Combine that with how hard you are to affect (Silvery Barbs makes you almost immune to crits, Absorb Elements halves all elemental damage, Shield makes mass shoots miss you) and you can be deceptively durable - but yeah, I'd get bonus HP and extra HP (Aid from the party would help a lot!) from any sources I could at that point.

[Pildion]

So, I decided to play a Wizard for the first time, because my Fighter died. I chose Bladesinger as my subclass and put my highest score in Intelligence, my second-highest in Dex and my third-highest in Con.

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem? I haven’t played the character yet, so I can still make changes. I am concerned that I will spend way too much time on the floor.

Honestly, I wouldn't try to melee with that kind of CON score and HP, just use bladesong for the extra concentration saves and AC it gives while hanging in the back like a normal wizard. If you play long enough to max Int and 8, at 12 you could grab Tough, then you could probably give Melee a try?

[Kane0]

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem? I haven’t played the character yet, so I can still make changes. I am concerned that I will spend way too much time on the floor.

Sounds normal to me. Its probably just because you went straight from a high health class to a low health one. Dont forget you are a wizard first and bladesinger second and you'll be fine.

[nickl_2000]

Sounds normal to me. Its probably just because you went straight from a high health class to a low health one. Dont forget you are a wizard first and bladesinger second and you'll be fine.

I agree with this statement very strongly. A bladesinger doesn't and shouldn't have the AC HP of a martial, they aren't a martial. If you are going to play a full class wizard you can't expect it to have the staying power of a full class fighter and needs to be played differently. Hit and run, buff with spells, stay back and control in the first round and come in later to clean up with melee while keeping concentration on the control spells.

[Rukelnikov]

I agree with this statement very strongly. A bladesinger doesn't and shouldn't have the AC of a martial, they aren't a martial. If you are going to play a full class wizard you can't expect it to have the staying power of a full class fighter and needs to be played differently. Hit and run, buff with spells, stay back and control in the first round and come in later to clean up with melee while keeping concentration on the control spells.

You can say it shouldn't. But hasn't? Of course not, it has way more.

[Petelo4f]

Aight so you have 12 con...........not good but honestly you can survive with it.
16 dex is beautiful
18 Int is very good.

So your AC with Mage Armor is 16, which is ok, lower than a fighter but still decent. Add in Bladesong however and your AC becomes 20, which is quite solid, especially at this level. Add in the Shield spell (which you definitely took right?) your AC becomes 25. Maybe you cast Mirror Image as well, so now your even less likely to be hit.

So the optimal way to play a bladesinger is the same as any-ole Wizard really, support casting, and setting up game breaking things during downtime. However, if you are choosing to go with a Gish style (which is obviously what Bladesinging was designed to elicit) you really need to tailor your spells to that. You will have bad HP (though spells like false life can help with that), so you have to use your spells to provide defense...you need to stop hits before they happen, you can't take them. Bladesinger, moreso than any other Wizard, needs to have Shield, Absorb Elements and Silvery Barbs(if allowed) prepared. They need something like Mirror Image or Blink to further shore up their defenses if they plan on being in melee.

With the right defensive spells, you can be just as survivable as any front line Fighter despite your low HP. However, your Constitution is quite low, not for the purposes of HP, but for constitution saves to maintain concentration. If you are playing point buy, I would dump something like Cha or Str immediately so you can get that Con up to a 14, minimum. Further, you probably want to take the feats Warcaster and Resilient CON at some point during your characters career (likely at levels 4 and 8 respectively).

[nickl_2000]

You can say it shouldn't. But hasn't? Of course not, it has way more.

Woops, I said AC, but meant to say HP

[NaughtyTiger]

and false life is a decent HP boost for a first level spell. you aren't likely to use shield all that much.

[Rukelnikov]

Woops, I said AC, but meant to say HP

Oh, completely agreed then :P

[Segev]

With mage armor, you should have an AC of 16, which isn't bad. If you rely heavily on shield, blur will be a good use of concentration if you're still getting hit a lot. Otherwise, concentration-free mirror image will give you a number of free "hits" to help bolster you. (Both work together, as well, but the higher your AC, the more blur will outshine mirror image, since mirror image has a lower AC - 13, in your case - than you do, and can have attack rolls that would've missed you anyway hit them.)

If you really, really want more hp, you could go a little ironic and dip your first level as Barbarian. You'd need to swap your Dexterity and Constitution to make this work, and even then, you'd have a lower AC than you do with mage armor. But that'd give you 6 more hp at first level, and 10 more hp from constitution overall. Your AC would be 14, unless you wore medium armor (half plate would get you to 16, total, with a +1 modifier from dexterity). You'd have to treat rage as a specialized concentration spell, since it would prevent you from concentrating or casting, but it'd be there if you needed it. The setback to your spellcasting levels is almost certainly not worth it. But it'd put you up to 41 hp and be kind-of funny.

More in line with a straight-up bladesinger, false life has already been mentioned, but is really quite good for you. Find familiar is almost a requirement; have your familiar use the Help action to give a foe that is targeting you disadvantage on its first attack against you each round, unless you have something better for the little guy to be doing. Owls are popular familiars because flyby attack lets them do this and get out of reach with minimal vulnerability to counterattack.

You may also like phantom steed. It will get knocked out of a fight quickly if you're hit with an AoE, sadly, but it has a 100 ft. movement, and can hit-and-run the front lines with its disengage action, or can move you a full 200 feet per round with a dash action. This can let you rush in 50 feet, make your attacks, then rush another 50 feet back or through, out of the way, forcing enemies to choose who to target - you or your allies - and minimizing your profile for assault. Even indoors, as long as your Medium allies can move around freely, your phantom steed can "squeeze" through at a movement speed of 50 feet. This reduces you to 25 ft. in and out if you're hitting and running with Disengage, but is still pretty good, since it's not you having to spend your action on Disengaging. It's a ritual, too, with a total ritual casting time of 11 minutes. It lasts for an hour, so as long as your allies are good with you taking 11 minutes every hour casting, you can have it up at least for the first combat of the day.

If your DM is open to homebrew, I also have a suggested improvement (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645094-Upgrading-Phantom-Steed) to the spell, which makes it last 8 hours and also gives it upcast effects to make it more in line with 3.5's version of it, but even without that, for the purposes of "stay out of hitting range while hitting your enemies," it's good for a bladesinger, I think.

You might also consider animate dead. You're able to cast 3rd level spells; maintaining a small cadre of skeletons or zombies as bodyguards may not be a bad idea. Any hits they take are hits you're not taking. And they can also perform the Help action to give creatures disadvantage to hit you. Or to give you advantage to hit, if your hits are worth more than theirs are.

[Bardbarian91]

If you really, really want more hp, you could go a little ironic and dip your first level as Barbarian. You'd need to swap your Dexterity and Constitution to make this work, and even then, you'd have a lower AC than you do with mage armor. But that'd give you 6 more hp at first level, and 10 more hp from constitution overall. Your AC would be 14, unless you wore medium armor (half plate would get you to 16, total, with a +1 modifier from dexterity). You'd have to treat rage as a specialized concentration spell, since it would prevent you from concentrating or casting, but it'd be there if you needed it. The setback to your spellcasting levels is almost certainly not worth it. But it'd put you up to 41 hp and be kind-of funny.

I just had to chip in because of the hilarious mental image this gave me:

A wizard with flowing white beard and staff grumbles mid battle, angrily gesturing at the air before letting out a bellowing warcry, staff raised high in the air with both hands, eyes wide and bloodshot as he yells at his baffled - and strangely terrified - enemies:
"Why haven't you gone down already! I'll show you what's for you little whelps!"

[Sigreid]

Enjoy your abundance of HP! In earlier editions at level 3 a wizard would be lucky to have 12HP and would absolutely max out at 18.

[samcifer]

Yeah, wizard/sorcerer hp sucks. I'm playing a motm orc evocation wizard who already had to use his racial feature to avoid deaths saves once from an archer and there's no route to escape from him, so he's probably going to die in tonight's session. Guess I'll have to swamp to a warforged artificer so I can play something survivable as the dm keeps rolling 18+ on every attack roll against me, so the shield spell is worthless on my wizard.

[Eldariel]

Enjoy your abundance of HP! In earlier editions at level 3 a wizard would be lucky to have 12HP and would absolutely max out at 18.

This is level 5, to be fair. Still, a 2e Magic-User at level 5 with their 5d4+10 with maxed Con (16) is looking at like 22 so it's still a bit less. And with 12 Con it'd of course be like 17.


Yeah, wizard/sorcerer hp sucks. I'm playing a motm orc evocation wizard who already had to use his racial feature to avoid deaths saves once from an archer and there's no route to escape from him, so he's probably going to die in tonight's session. Guess I'll have to swamp to a warforged artificer so I can play something survivable as the dm keeps rolling 18+ on every attack roll against me, so the shield spell is worthless on my wizard.

Do you remember to stay prone vs. ranged attacks? That helps a lot to force them to roll at disadvantage. Silvery Barbs also helps a ton there, making enemies reroll the excessively high attack rolls when Shield doesn't work. Rope Trick is of course the ultimate getaway if you just need a place to hide though a 2nd level slot is of course a hefty investment and preparing it isn't free either.

[Segev]

Enjoy your abundance of HP! In earlier editions at level 3 a wizard would be lucky to have 12HP and would absolutely max out at 18.

In earlier editions, assumptions of amounts of damage monsters might deal also were different. Not saying you can't discover that your analysis is right or wrong, but you shouldn't make this statement as if it were certainly a truth. (If damage in 1e never grew over 1 per hit, for example - it doesn't ,but for example - then 18 hp would be a lot more than 30 hp if average hits do 10 hp apiece!)

[Sigreid]

In earlier editions, assumptions of amounts of damage monsters might deal also were different. Not saying you can't discover that your analysis is right or wrong, but you shouldn't make this statement as if it were certainly a truth. (If damage in 1e never grew over 1 per hit, for example - it doesn't ,but for example - then 18 hp would be a lot more than 30 hp if average hits do 10 hp apiece!)

I've been playing a long time and damage dealt has been relatively even across editions with the exception of high end spell damage being lowered. No 20d6 fireballs anymore, for example.

[Eldariel]

I've been playing a long time and damage dealt has been relatively even across editions with the exception of high end spell damage being lowered. No 20d6 fireballs anymore, for example.

One big departure is things like Goblins, Kobolds, etc. no longer rolling just (small) weapon damage tho (also their stats are better in this edition than traditionally). Dex to damage does a lot of work for typical low Str PC adversaries.

[Rukelnikov]

In earlier editions, assumptions of amounts of damage monsters might deal also were different. Not saying you can't discover that your analysis is right or wrong, but you shouldn't make this statement as if it were certainly a truth. (If damage in 1e never grew over 1 per hit, for example - it doesn't ,but for example - then 18 hp would be a lot more than 30 hp if average hits do 10 hp apiece!)


I've been playing a long time and damage dealt has been relatively even across editions with the exception of high end spell damage being lowered. No 20d6 fireballs anymore, for example.


One big departure is things like Goblins, Kobolds, etc. no longer rolling just (small) weapon damage tho (also their stats are better in this edition than traditionally). Dex to damage does a lot of work for typical low Str PC adversaries.

IIRC, damage from enemies in 2e was noticeable lower for things like goblins, kobolds and standard orcs, never played higher than lvl 9 so IDK how it was for high level monsters.

I remember My Wizard had 6 hp@1, 9@2, 15@3 DAT 16 Con

[Catullus64]

If you want to be in melee and are going to be this squishy, consider Mobile. That way you can get in, do good damage with your melee cantrips, and get out, allowing the tougher melee characters to absorb the brunt of the enemy attacks. With +10 speed from the feat and +10 from your Bladesong you'll have quite a lot of movement to play around with.

[Spacehamster]

So, I decided to play a Wizard for the first time, because my Fighter died. I chose Bladesinger as my subclass and put my highest score in Intelligence, my second-highest in Dex and my third-highest in Con.

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem? I haven’t played the character yet, so I can still make changes. I am concerned that I will spend way too much time on the floor.

Rolled stats or any other reason that your CON aint 14? Would have started with 8/17/14/17/10/8 if I were a mtn dorf bladesinger, otherwise 8/16/14/17/10/8 with a +2/+1 race or 8/16/16/17/8/8 if a half elf. :)

[da newt]

Yup your hp are low, but your defenses are very good (when in place). Choose when and where to jump into melee and you'll be fine (and pop up healing exists, so take some risks) - keep the mindset that you are a fully functioning Wizard who can also pretend to be a martial sometimes.

BTW - the help action cannot be used to give an attacker DISADV.

Maybe go with Goliath (damage mitigation) as a race or Tabaxi (for a GTFO button) or Goblin (for BA hide) or a flying race or ...

[Tanarii]

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem?
IMX it's far more normal for players of Wizards (and Sorcerers) to prioritize Con over Dex. If possible starting with a 14 Con, and any extra secondary ASIs going in to Con rather than Dex. Because your AC is going to be trash anyway, there isn't any point in boosting it, you get far more mileage out of Con and hiding behind tanks as best you can.

Otoh I didn't allow bladesingers IMC so I can't comment on them specifically. Folks around here seem to think they're okay on the AC front, so maybe it is worth investing.

I have noticed it is very common to think they are supposed to be Gish instead of a Wizard with some melee tacked on top. The same way folks think Bladelocks are supposed to be Gish instead of a caster with some melee. :smallconfused:

[samcifer]

So my wizard managed to survive and we leveled up, so I decided to take a level of artificer (I was planning this multiclass already, but had hoped to wait until after wizard lv 5) for higher ac, more hp and access to cure wounds for healing. I wish wizards weren't so brittle. :(

[Sigreid]

IMX it's far more normal for players of Wizards (and Sorcerers) to prioritize Con over Dex. If possible starting with a 14 Con, and any extra secondary ASIs going in to Con rather than Dex. Because your AC is going to be trash anyway, there isn't any point in boosting it, you get far more mileage out of Con and hiding behind tanks as best you can.

Otoh I didn't allow bladesingers IMC so I can't comment on them specifically. Folks around here seem to think they're okay on the AC front, so maybe it is worth investing.

I have noticed it is very common to think they are supposed to be Gish instead of a Wizard with some melee tacked on top. The same way folks think Bladelocks are supposed to be Gish instead of a caster with some melee. :smallconfused:

That's the logic I use. After the first couple of levels a wizard's AC is not going to pose a challenge to hit to your opponents. So since you're going to get hit, you do what you can to increase your chance of surviving when it happens.


So my wizard managed to survive and we leveled up, so I decided to take a level of artificer (I was planning this multiclass already, but had hoped to wait until after wizard lv 5) for higher ac, more hp and access to cure wounds for healing. I wish wizards weren't so brittle. :(

It's a tradeoff. They get the cool spells so many other threads spend time complaining about and in exchange they die easy. Among other things, it helps make sure they need the rest of the group.

[Dualight]

Then again, if wizards weren't so brittle, people would be complaining about them being overpowered even more. The fragility is the price they pay for their ridiculous casting power.

[Ganryu]

I'd take one of two feats.

Crossbow expert let's you stay back, fire two shots and a cantrip a turn, switching in a spell when you feel like it.

Mobile negates your poor HP by letting some other ~~sacrifice~~ ally to take a hit, while letting you keep up pressure with SCAG cantrips and attacks for far more damage.

Best part of bladesinger IMO is it let's you spread out your spell slots because attack and cantrip is always a decent option, not a "quit being worthless, wizard" turn.

[Bardbarian91]

Then again, if wizards weren't so brittle, people would be complaining about them being overpowered even more. The fragility is the price they pay for their ridiculous casting power.

Exactly right. That's why you find ways to mitigate the fragility, with defensive spells, items, multiclassing, careful positioning, any number of things. I mean if you wanna do massive damage and be tanky, Tempest Cleric is probably the best overall pick, but even then you tradeoff for the sheer variety of spells a wizard can know versus not dying when someone attacks you. I do like the Artificer multiclass, it's effective and nets you some much needed durability while working with your Int just like wizard. I'd also suggest if you still feel squishy, pick up the Tough feat. For the price of s single feat you get the effective bonus HP per level as if you put two ASIs into your Con.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'd recommend looking at the Tough feat when you get to 8th level. An extra 16 hit points, and 2 more every level afterwards, would get you closer to your goal.

[Witty Username]

You should be good by using your 1st level spells as defenses.
Absorb elements would be my first choice.
My 1 note is I wouldn't recommend mage armor unless ascetic reasons.
Studded leather will get you 1 AC less but won't cost a spell.

With bladesong that will be an AC of 19, which is above board for most characters at this level.

And a 3rd level heavy gun spell, like hypnotic pattern, slow or fireball will solve combats without needing to frontline as needed.

It should be fine, find your footing for what works for you, and if you have fun your doing it right.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm a little late to the party but I'd like to suggest Abjurer if you're really that concerned about HP. Their ward is free temp HP which you can activate with a ritual like Alarm at the start of your day. Twice your wizard level plus your intelligence modifier. 5th level and 18int? That's 14 temp hp.

Take a race that gets free armor and you can be as armored as the cleric with as much hp as the pre-rage barbarian. Or the fighter. That survivability does detract from how much you can directly do to enemies of course. Essentially losing active abilities in favor of passives.

Edit.
I'm playing a hobgoblin abjurer. Survivability is high, but doesn't seem to gish well. Maybe I just haven't found the right spells yet.

[RSP]

Late as well, I guess, but I’d suggest building to how you want to play. If your BS is a frontliner, than I’d suggest stats of Dex 18, Con 16, Int 12. Then choose spells that help you in combat, rather than spells that either use attack rolls or saves (which won’t be as strong with a 12 Int).

This will make you a perfectly fine frontliner. Particularly if you stay Wiz at level up, you get the BS Extra Attack feature which offers loads of options: you’ll be much sturdier attacking and casting Blade Ward, than going Artificer (though BS EA offers plenty of options with Attack + Cantrip)

If you’re a Wizard that happens to have some BS features, like to increase your Conc Saves, I’d just grab Warcaster and/or Res (Con) and get a different subclass.

[Leon]

That is a good point, often forget that the High stat isn't a necessity in this edition if its not what you focusing on with Saves/Attack.

[LudicSavant]

So, I decided to play a Wizard for the first time, because my Fighter died. I chose Bladesinger as my subclass and put my highest score in Intelligence, my second-highest in Dex and my third-highest in Con.

After racial modifiers and one Half-feat( we are lvl 5 ) it looks like this: dex 16, con 12, int 18. the problem: I have 25 HP. Is this normal for Wizards, or do I have a problem? I haven’t played the character yet, so I can still make changes. I am concerned that I will spend way too much time on the floor.

If you have 12 Con and no other durability investments, then you will definitely be on the squishier end of Wizards.

It's common for Wizard builds in general to have 14-18 Constitution. 12 is on the low end.

In addition, many Wizard builds invest in additional ways to boost their durability (spell selection, feats, races, subclasses, and so forth can all make an enormous difference, bigger than any of the differences between the base class kits). It's very much up to you whether you want your Wizard build to be squishy, a heavy tank, or anything in between.