Heigthen spell question

[Max Caysey]

Let’s go guys…

So, I haven’t been able to clearly find this out, so I’m turning to the majesty that is this forum collective powwah!

Can I heighten a spell to it’s normal level? Assuming I have a level 3 spell, would I be able to heighten that to level 3 and have that gain the bonuses of the metamagic feat!

I’m a level 5 wizard btw…

Cheers!

[Biggus]

Give the wording of the spell, I'd say not:


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal

Even if you could, what benefit would you gain?

[Darg]

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

It's not a heightened spell if its not a higher level than normal.

Edit: I got beat.


Even if you could, what benefit would you gain?

Arcane thesis

[spectralphoenix]

No, the description in the feat says it must be a higher level than normal. That said, I don't understand what benefits you're trying to get here. Heightening a spell only increases its spell level (usually for the purpose of increasing the save DC). Even if you could heighten a spell by zero levels, I don't think anything would change beyond increasing the casting time for sorcerors.

Edit: slow to the party. Still, arcane thesis explicitly excludes heightened spell, and errata says it can't reduce a spell below its base level.

[Biggus]

Still, arcane thesis explicitly excludes heightened spell, and errata says it can't reduce a spell below its base level.

Good point, Arcane Thesis doesn't work. I guess Metamagic School Focus could do it though (if it worked at all).

[Max Caysey]

Thanks guys... It was kind of thought experiment for me, but I have to start reading feat discriptions more closely I guess.

On that note, I have a few more questions:

1) Does the feat Easy Metamagic (DR #325) work on Heighten spell?

2) Does the feat Practical Metamagic (RotD) work on Heighten spell?

Cheers!

[spectralphoenix]

Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic could both work with Heighten Spell, though they both can't reduce the level below the base level plus one.

Metamagic School Focus might be able to work with something like Sanctum Spell. You could argue that "uses a slot of the spell's normal level" means the cost is zero and "reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat " results in a cost of negative one and thus you can prepare Fly as a second level spell or something. That seems like a bit of a stretch, though, and I don't think most DMs would let you get away with that reading.

[Jack_Simth]

For Reference (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell):

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.


Even if you could, what benefit would you gain?
Triggering Earth Spell, perhaps?

[Max Caysey]

For Reference (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell):



Triggering Earth Spell, perhaps?

Indeed!!!

I was looking for a way of casting a spell in a reduced slot… somehow. Whether og not I would try it in a game is uncertain but as pointed out it’s a thought experiment at this stage.

[Beni-Kujaku]

For Reference (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell):



Triggering Earth Spell, perhaps?

I thought about it, but Earth Spell specifically mentions one level, two levels, and so on. It doesn't give a general rule of "you gain an additional level and an increase to caster level equal to the number of levels by which you've heightened the spell you cast". As written, Earth Spell only works for positive numbers of "Heightenings".

[sleepyphoenixx]

Indeed!!!

I was looking for a way of casting a spell in a reduced slot… somehow. Whether og not I would try it in a game is uncertain but as pointed out it’s a thought experiment at this stage.

By strict RAW Sanctum Spell should work because of the way Earth Spell is worded:

If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one.
If you cast a sanctum spell outside your sanctum its level is reduced by one but it's still cast from the normal slot, which is now one higher than the spells level.
So you should get a free 2 levels of heighten (for a total of +1 over the baseline spell) and +1 CL if you cast a Sanctum Spell outside your sanctum with Earth Spell.

[Darg]

By strict RAW Sanctum Spell should work because of the way Earth Spell is worded:

If you cast a sanctum spell outside your sanctum its level is reduced by one but it's still cast from the normal slot, which is now one higher than the spells level.
So you should get a free 2 levels of heighten (for a total of +1 over the baseline spell) and +1 CL if you cast a Sanctum Spell outside your sanctum with Earth Spell.

Um, 1+1-1=1. I wouldn't call it free. You are still spending 2 feats to simply cancel each other out. Inside your sanctum it would be +3 spell levels for one slot higher.

edit: Unless you are thinking earth spell works on its own, which it doesn't:


As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect.

Earth spell only modifies Heighten Spell.

[Max Caysey]

Um, 1+1-1=1. I wouldn't call it free. You are still spending 2 feats to simply cancel each other out. Inside your sanctum it would be +3 spell levels for one slot higher.

edit: Unless you are thinking earth spell works on its own, which it doesn't:



Earth spell only modifies Heighten Spell.

I want to use a level 0 spell, heigthen it to level level 5 slot have earth spell make it a ****tion like a level 6, but have sanctum (or any other metamagic mitigating feat) reduce the slot used, so I can effectively cast a level 6 out of level 4 slot... It at all doable!

[sleepyphoenixx]

I want to use a level 0 spell, heigthen it to level level 5 slot have earth spell make it a ****tion like a level 6, but have sanctum (or any other metamagic mitigating feat) reduce the slot used, so I can effectively cast a level 6 out of level 4 slot... It at all doable!
Anything that reduces the cost of heighten (or grants a free level of heighten) would do that.
Metamagic School Focus, Talfirian Song, Divine Metamagic - pretty much every metamagic reducer but Incantatrix's Metamagic effect would work for that.

Cast your level 0 spell from a 4th level slot, Earth Spell makes it 5th, 1 free level of heighten from any source to increase it to a 6th level spell.
With DMM or Talifirian Song the only thing that stops you from heightening to 9ths is your turn undead or bardic music uses.
No need to get creative with Sanctum Spell for that.

[Crake]

Worth noting that as far as I can see, metamagic reducers don't work with heighten spell due to it's unique way of functioning. Heighten spell doesn't have a metamagic cost associated with it, but rather it lets you choose the level at which you can cast the spell. As such, becuase it doesn't have a metamagic cost, it can't be "reduced" so to speak. Personally, I think a cooler design choice for heighten spell would be the feat allowing the metamagic costs of OTHER metamagic feats to increase the spell's level accordingly, so the costs also raise the DC, and the spell's resistance to effects like invulnerability field or spell turning. This would both make the feat more desirable outside of cheese, and also make metamagic reducers feel less necessary, as the metamagic cost now at least comes with some sort of benefit.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Worth noting that as far as I can see, metamagic reducers don't work with heighten spell due to it's unique way of functioning. Heighten spell doesn't have a metamagic cost associated with it, but rather it lets you choose the level at which you can cast the spell. As such, becuase it doesn't have a metamagic cost, it can't be "reduced" so to speak.
That reading clashes with the fact that there is at least one metamagic reducer that explicitly works with heighten (Talfirian Song).
You could interpret the RAW that way, but i think it's safe to say in this case that that's not the intended reading.


Personally, I think a cooler design choice for heighten spell would be the feat allowing the metamagic costs of OTHER metamagic feats to increase the spell's level accordingly, so the costs also raise the DC, and the spell's resistance to effects like invulnerability field or spell turning. This would both make the feat more desirable outside of cheese, and also make metamagic reducers feel less necessary, as the metamagic cost now at least comes with some sort of benefit.

Heighten with metamagic reducers is already one of the most feat-efficient methods of increasing your spell DCs in the game. And metamagic stacking isn't exactly in need of buffs either.
Theorycrafting tends to assume that casters use only no-SR no-save spells and undervalues DC increases in general, but at least in my experience it's an entirely different matter in practice.

[Crake]

That reading clashes with the fact that there is at least one metamagic reducer that explicitly works with heighten (Talfirian Song).
You could interpret the RAW that way, but i think it's safe to say in this case that that's not the intended reading.

Except that that feat is specifically worded to function with heighten (and only heighten), while using different wording than most other metamagic reducer feats, so I don't think it really does much to chnage my stance on the matter.


Heighten with metamagic reducers is already one of the most feat-efficient methods of increasing your spell DCs in the game. And metamagic stacking isn't exactly in need of buffs either.
Theorycrafting tends to assume that casters use only no-SR no-save spells and undervalues DC increases in general, but at least in my experience it's an entirely different matter in practice.

Metamagic stacking generally comes with the notion of stacking reducers to bring the total cost to 0, so my proposed idea wouldn't really provide it with any buffs. It's more of a buff to vanilla metamagic than anything else, which is generally not considered that strong. Most people will agree that spending a 6th level spellslot for a maximised fireball isn't a great use of that spell slot, but at least with this, it's slightly less bad for low-op play.

[Darg]

Most people will agree that spending a 6th level spellslot for a maximised fireball isn't a great use of that spell slot, but at least with this, it's slightly less bad for low-op play.

I would argue that a maximized fireball is relatively better than chain lightning for competing with the slot. Not to mention you can use lesser metamagic rods with it.

[Crake]

I would argue that a maximized fireball is relatively better than chain lightning for competing with the slot. Not to mention you can use lesser metamagic rods with it.

I mean, sure, until the enemy has a lesser globe of invulnerability and it instantly fizzles.

[Darg]

I mean, sure, until the enemy has a lesser globe of invulnerability and it instantly fizzles.

Why bother with fireball against a single enemy? Chain Lightning is great against a single target with collateral or when you need to be selective on who you hurt. It's not often you face whole groups of enemies protected by a globe. Then again, usually an area dispel will remove that protection.

[Crake]

Why bother with fireball against a single enemy? Chain Lightning is great against a single target with collateral or when you need to be selective on who you hurt. It's not often you face whole groups of enemies protected by a globe. Then again, usually an area dispel will remove that protection.

I mean, im not sure what you're getting at ultimately. Having to spend 2 feats to make a metamagiced fireball more competitive with an unmetamagiced 6th level spell seems like fair tradeoff to me. Heighten in it's current state is almost never used unless people are trying to cheese early entry with bonus heighten effects like earth spell, and normal metamagic is rarely used unless cheesed with metamagic reducers. I think this kinda solves two problems in one go, making the metamagic cost provide some value, through the use of a feat that people would normally otherwise not select.