Gah...No More EVIL!

[Elven Paladin]

Hi there. I'm a pretty avid D&D player, and I usually play every weekend with a group of my friends. It's usually pretty fun, but there's only one thing that irks me; they will only play evil games. Now don't get me wrong I think it's fun every once in a while. It's just that whenever I suggest we play a good game they all start talking about how hard or how boring it is to play good characters. Does anyone have any advice that doesn't involve me finding a new group?

[Renegade Paladin]

Get a DM who will actually have the environment respond appropriately to a group of powerful evil guys running rampant? In most games, adventurers come after evil menaces; there should be very powerful people looking to off your parties all the time.

[Ralfarius]

Honestly? Other than changing your perspective to fit into them, your options are:
- Find a new group
- Wait 3-4 years for them to mature a bit and get out of their 'evil' phase

I mean, you could try to sit them down and explain how you feel about always having to play evil campaigns, but if they think that not being evil is 'boring' and 'hard' good characters are to play... They're more than likely not going to be very receptive to other viewpoints.

[Elven Paladin]

Well as we've been playing for almost 6 years I think it's a bit more than an evil "phase." I live in a fairly small town, and we're really the only gaming group around.

[Renegade Paladin]

Again I ask: Does the DM just have the game world lie down and take it when your parties go about doing their nefarious deeds? There should be good-aligned adventuring parties, paladin orders, and churches of good deities out for their hides all the time; if there aren't, then the DM is simply pandering to the players.

[Deepblue706]

What is the age range of your group? I hope you're not offended if I presume early teens - it seems to me that younger players like to be anti-heroes and villains, etc, and believe that good guys are automatically like Superman or Captain America (and are forced to wear spandex, etc) - and thus overdone, boring, and likely very dumb-looking.

Maybe they're not ready for "good", and that's fine. Instead, try to entice players into being "neutral" - this allows them free-reign to be the badasses they want to be, but it's easier to manage. A lot of heroes can be neutral - all they need is motivation to kill the enemy.

If your DM (or you, if you are he) can make someone the players absolutely hate, on a level that makes them actually want to be, at least, a little good, you might send some momentum in a more pleasant direction. If there are NPCs that are always meaner, badder than the PCs, and also plenty of nicer ones (but make sure they're badass too), they will receive a broader spectrum of how they relate on scales of good and evil - it might be what they need to consider other alignments. Having a NPC to be the Luke Skywalker to their Darth Vader might do some good (turn to the light!), if done properly.

How evil are they, usually? If I had more details, I would have a better perspective of the situation, and might have more suggestions.

[Elven Paladin]

I'm almost too embarassed to admit it but I'm one of the youngest in the group and I'm 18. The rest are around 19 and 20.

How evil are they? Well...they routinely rape barwenches, bite out the throats of their enemies, murder unsuspecting commoners including children, and act very flippantly to persons in positions of authority.

I know that last one isn't too evil, but he's the king dammit!

On a side note, I would try to convince them to be neutral, but they usually end up with the same personalities. Even on those off chances they're good they tend to play violent antiheroes.

[Morty]

Well, I guess people at the age of 20 can act childishly too.
And anyway, do your DM(s) ever try to punish them for this? As said above, after few rampant mass murders or rapes, some group of powerful good-aligned adventurers should deem it prudent to stomp them into ground.

[cupkeyk]

Why doesn't the king have them killed? Azoun was epic leveled Ftr Pal Purple Dragon knight wasn't he? There's that Paladinstar chick.

The thing is, maybe the dm enjoys that kind of gameplay too and endorses it by not having any serious repercussions to it.

[Alex12]

Question: Are you the DM, the player, or do you alternate?
for DMing:Be realistic. If the party kills little old ladies, commits arson for fun, and the like, people will know. Shops won't sell to them, inns will turn them away, and of course they'll be hunted down by high-level adventurers. And they shouldn't expect sympathy from other evil creatures either, naturally.
As a player, things can be even more fun. Be a good cleric. Say your god ordered you to travel with them to prevent the end of existence (after all, even evil characters presumably don't want to die, nor do they really want everything to die. They just want to kill/destroy stuff for fun, and it's not fun anymore if there's nothing left to do that to. This doesn't even have to be a major thing, just that something you do while traveling with them will have a butterfly effect and end up saving the universe at some point in the future. You can lead by example, and you'll still have some nice roleplaying.

[Elven Paladin]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.

Edit: I actually like Alex12's idea a lot, but I see bad things happening to that cleric in his sleep...

[Ralfarius]

Back in the day, a friend and I were testing the waters with a potentially new group of gamers. They turned out to be a bunch of V:tM wannabes, going on about how evil is not black and white and blah-dee-blah, especially when once they made a trio of evil characters to fit into a group that already had 3 good characters. Our paladin ended up finding them out while detecting evil, so we confronted them, beat the snot out of them, then dragged them off to the local clergy to help us make them into not such a risk to society.

They wouldn't have any of that, and instead of trying to work something out with us, they (one of them literally) ripped up the character sheets and told us that we'd have to get out of the host's house. I kid you not, they threatened to kick us out for not trucking with evil characters.

Well, we had about gotten the feel of what these folks were about. So, to end our association on a high note, we agreed to play an 'all-evil' campaign. Basically, we systematically killed off each of their characters, and when we got to the one who was closest to the GM (in terms of personal relationship), the GM had us waylaid by a group of randomly generated high-level thugs just outside the inn who inexplicably wanted to kill us. We actually escaped, and ran off into the distance, cackling and reveling in out-evilling the evil players.

Not the most 'mature' way of dealing with it, but man does it make for a good story.

The big problem with 'evil' campaigns is that evil in D&D is an inherently self-destructive force. Evil characters almost always work in a manner that causes harm and/or resentment in others, even if they do so in a way that their victims aren't immediately aware of their actions. Evil characters will usually plot and scheme, especially against other members of their group.

It's extremely difficult for a group of players to feasibly maintain such a campaign, when ultimately they're probably looking to subjugate, swindle, or kill each other. I'm not going to say impossible, but often times evil characters will only end up working together for long periods because one of them has a significant advantage over the others, and bends them to his/her whims. Granted, this has some good RP opportunity, but you have to consider that a great many players don't much enjoy being bossed around by their other party members to do things.

If your group is the 'stab each other in the back' kind of group, you should try introducing them to PARANOIA. It will help them get their fill of those urges, then they can try to be productive do-gooders (or do-neutralers) for a more serious game of D&D.

Also: If you just can't find another group within a reasonable physical distance, you should consider some play-by-post. That sort of stuff is all over the internet, and there's even some potential fun to be had here on the forums!

[Elven Paladin]

The thing is they don't really try to stab each other in the back, just random townspeople. They're a very unified evil force.

Edit: I may just have to find a PbP game soon, so be on the lookout.

[Baxbart]

I'm so glad my players are pretty much out of that phase (all bar one... but he's currently a paladin at the moment, and bound within the laws of a lawful good alignment for fear of losing his powers).

I haven't got a lot else to offer - most ideas seem to have been suggested. The easiest way to hound them is to put bounties on their heads from various authorities, and just throw parties of tougher (same to slightly higher level) NPCs at them. After their 'fun' evil characters get killed several times over, they might start being a little more careful about who they insult.

Of, if they are about to do something unnecessarily violent, drop a Tarrasque on 'em :smallbiggrin:

[The Mormegil]

Oh, how I know how you feel... Yes, my players ARE young teens, but anyway, I don't want to wait untill I'm old to have fun playing...

Oh, by the way, if that' the WHOLE group, the DM can't just piss them all and give them no rest untill they're dead, because he's the DM and they should enjoy playing. Just go along, and if you don't like it, play an LG Evangelist that wants peace and love for everyone...

[Morty]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.


Huh?:smallconfused: They go around killing random people and they don't know why are authorities after them?

[Ralfarius]

Huh?:smallconfused: They go around killing random people and they don't know why are authorities after them?
They sound like they may be what some refer to as 'weenies' or 'wieners'. It's kind of a technical term, but basically it means they think they're cool for doing something which isn't inherently cool, and anything that suggests the contrary is an affront to their sensibilities.

[Drider]

Of, if they are about to do something unnecessarily violent, drop a Tarrasque on 'em :smallbiggrin:

Tarrasque falls, everybody dies.

[Arakune]

I'm almost too embarassed to admit it but I'm one of the youngest in the group and I'm 18. The rest are around 19 and 20.

How evil are they? Well...they routinely rape barwenches, bite out the throats of their enemies, murder unsuspecting commoners including children, and act very flippantly to persons in positions of authority.

I know that last one isn't too evil, but he's the king dammit!

On a side note, I would try to convince them to be neutral, but they usually end up with the same personalities. Even on those off chances they're good they tend to play violent antiheroes.

Ask to be the DM and punish their characters in a horrible way.

What? That's fun, and consistent.

[....]

Order the Paranoid rulebooks.

Then you can kill each other all you want, and anyone else to. Just be sure to shout they're a commie before you off them.

[The_Werebear]

Well...

There is another way. Play a character who is so sickeningly twisted that they get creeped out and want you to go the other way. Buy a BOVD, tell the other players you have found a way to empower the group, and sacrifice a party member. Have a high bluff. Tell the victim it is only a minor bloodletting for ritual purposes. Then actually Coup De Grace them. Use a Pick or a Scythe. Get benefits. Watch them get sick of evil.

[Deepblue706]

You could always send a holy order of high-level paladins after them. They may become scared of the "Smite Evil" ability, alone - especially after when they see it coming from atop a divine mount doing a spirited charge on their asses. If you can't persuade people to see your way, beating it into them works...sometimes. Well, hey, if it doesn't, you can still be satisfied with saying "Okay, since each lance does three times the normal damage, and oh, hey, that one was a critical hit, too..."

[Arioch]

If played well and with prepared players, evil campaigns can be very fun. What really annoys me, though, is the "Good is boring" attitude that comes with enjoying roleplaying evil for a lot of people.

I'd reccomend making as realistic an evil character as you can think of. They'll get bumped out of their fantasy villain shells pretty fast if you show them what real evil is like.

[Alex12]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.

Edit: I actually like Alex12's idea a lot, but I see bad things happening to that cleric in his sleep...

Okay, the players get upset?
"You broke the law and killed a bunch of people/raped a barwench/desecrated a holy place/whatever. Of course the law is looking out for you."
"Well how do they know what we look like?"
"Scrying. They're not ignorant sheep, they do have brains, and they really don't like people murdering children and such."
Or, give them some variation of what I like to call the "GINOH" test.
While traveling, they see an elderly man clearly struggling with some part of a wagon or something that's broken. He asks for their help. If they laugh at him or ignore him or something, then they get attacked by a group of Paladins and clerics who were told by their god to teach the group a lesson. If the group helps the old man, he thanks them with something very valuable. If they attack him...
"The old man falls dead in a pool of blood. Suddenly, his body starts twitching, glowing, and humming (or something to that effect) and a gout of smoke billows from the corpse. As the smoke coalesces into a human form, you hear a booming voice inside your head. 'In the centuries I have lived, I, [insert name of powerful good-aligned god here] have never seen such blatant evil! You shall be punished!'"
Then, in a more normal voice,
"Congrats, you just pissed off a god."

As for the "murder the cleric in his sleep" bit, well, the thing about gods is that they won't necessarily tell you when you've finished your mission. Do their characters really want to bring about the apocalypse? Plus, you wouldn't be bossing them around, but you'd be doing things like breaking up fights, etc.

[Renegade Paladin]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.
Wait. What? They don't know why the authorities are after them when they're breaking every single law on the books? I'm sorry, but I begin to get the feeling that your fellow players dumped INT, to put it bluntly; why they'd have enemies after raping said enemies' sisters is blatantly obvious. :smallannoyed:

[Xuincherguixe]

I like evil games. But it's good to have some variety.

The solution isn't to just do nasty things to them until they agree. That's a great way for the group to just decide they aren't interested in playing any more.

Maybe you can try and get them to play good, but really dark types. Looking for some monster vicious and nasty enough to beat them in honorable combat. Or someone who's cursed and brings suffering to everyone around him, and they can't kill themselves because they have some important task to complete. Maybe a guy that needs to keep cutting himself or else a demon will rip out of his head before moving into a new host with similar conditions.

You know, nice depressing stuff like that ^_^ That's probably more fun than, "I give the 51st baby cancer too."

[nobodylovesyou4]

Well...

There is another way. Play a character who is so sickeningly twisted that they get creeped out and want you to go the other way. Buy a BOVD, tell the other players you have found a way to empower the group, and sacrifice a party member. Have a high bluff. Tell the victim it is only a minor bloodletting for ritual purposes. Then actually Coup De Grace them. Use a Pick or a Scythe. Get benefits. Watch them get sick of evil.

very good idea. go into necrophilia and use the corpses of enemies as sex toys. summon demons to possess you and vomit constantly, while speaking in tongues. skewer children and carry their corpses for food. sacrifice an entire village to the Dead Cthulhu, while chanting over and over "Phnw'glui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl f'taghn". do the most sickening things imaginable until the OTHERS are sick of evil.

[Sofaking]

Trick them all into putting on those helms of opposite alignment.

[Dorizzit]

I have to say the going too far the other way and making them realize just what evil really is is a good idea.

[Renegade Paladin]

I say drop a few inevitables on them; they're bound to do something that would get one sent after them at some point.

[Telonius]

Well...

There is another way. Play a character who is so sickeningly twisted that they get creeped out and want you to go the other way. Buy a BOVD, tell the other players you have found a way to empower the group, and sacrifice a party member. Have a high bluff. Tell the victim it is only a minor bloodletting for ritual purposes. Then actually Coup De Grace them. Use a Pick or a Scythe. Get benefits. Watch them get sick of evil.

I like this idea. A lot. Of course I'm a sick and twisted b*stard myself, and would have no problem creeping out a bunch of wannabes. You can go farther down that dark path than they ever thought possible. Bar wenches? Pah. That's amateur hour. I suggest reading up on some barbaric history. Spanish Inquisition is a good place to start. Carthage is another. The conquest of Constantinople in 1452 is another great event for evil. Serial killers, dictators, rapists ... there's plenty of sadism to choose from. Creep them out badly enough and they'll never want to play evil with you again.

[Alex12]

Oh yeah. Be a cleric of an evil god, and check out some of the stuff in BoVD for real evil. Sacrifice some souls and you get dark craft XP, which you can use instead of regular XP to pay for item crafting, but doing so makes the item itself evil. I think it's the Dread Emperor's armor that lets you channel damage dealt to you into mind-controlled children you have chained to you, but I could be wrong.
Booby-trapped gear, painting yourself with blood, drinking blood, necrophilia, ochinecrophelia (I think that's the right term for wanting to have sex with the undead) arson, addiction to liquid pain, using human body parts as metamagic components, just go nuts.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Deploy the only thing capable of scaring an all-evil party.

The Chaotic Neutral Slaadi Warmage from Hell Limbo.

Srsly, you can neatly turn the alignment axes 90 degrees by making the 'epic conflict' law vs. chaos.

[Mewtarthio]

Of course, the risk there is that they decide it's really cool to do all that. Plus, if anyone can personally perform enough evil to creep those guys out without blowing it, I'd say that's a bad sign.

[F.L.]

To truly punish these evildoers, consider this:

To repay evil with evil is still cool. (Demons, Devils, Slaad, they rock).

To fight evil with good is also cool. (Fighting Angels, Celestials, Inevitables? That rocks too.)

Strike at them in their coolness. Send fae after them. Send unicorns, send fuzzy guardinals, just keep sending the cutest damn things there are after them. Make them tire of fighting such things. Bind them with Otto's Irresistable dance. Change their hair color, cover their equipment with lace and ribbons. And when they're nauseated enough, kill them with the weakest things in the book. Mob them with mustevals enough to kill at least one of them with magic missiles. Have a pixie swarm Otto's Irresistable dance + coup de grace. Set nymphs for them as bait, and take their eyes away. Disintegrate every diamond in the kingdom. Cripple, harass, curse them.

And if the things in the book aren't enough, start stacking templates. Stack them even upon ordinary humans, upon puppies, upon kittens. If 1 of every 9 targets they attack can seriously hurt them, they'll at least slow down. Give random people things like the ninja class, after all, a true ninja is either completely invisible, or completely ordinary looking.

[kjones]

Nitpick: Otto's Irresistible Dance does not leave you vulnerable to a CdG.

[JettWilderbeast]

I really like the idea of the inevitables, I just started running a campaign with inevitables in, true its a good aligned campaign but they sure as hell do give the players a run for their money!

[F.L.]

Fine, if the players are high enough level, make them pixie rogues. That should be the end of a few of them. Dance, and take AoO sneak attacks.

[Wolf_Shade]

Being "more evil" is likely to just give them ideas.
DMPC a new party member and have it make their lives horrible. They're cohesive evil, so break their cohesiveness. Do a lot of taking individuals aside to talk to them. In other words, don't get the paranoia books, just make them paranoid. Keep them on edge, make them not trust each other. Eventually if every time they play an evil campaign their afraid for their livelihood they might be interested in playing a game where you're expected to be helpful.

[Prophaniti]

see now, I have the opposite situation. We never run evil characters. My DM flatly refuses to allow it because he's had to deal with it in the past and doesnt want discussions of rape and baby-killing all the time. On the one hand I completely agree with him, but on the other, I often wish I could run a villian, one of those "Yes, I'm evil, but there's no reason we can't be civil about it, now is there?" type people, but can't because the majority of the party is good.

In my campaigns I try to run a more morally ambiguous world, one where detect evil has no effect on mortals, because they are free to act as they choose. Only outsiders, aberations and some magical beasts, creatures that are inherently and unchangably evil (or good) are affected by such spells. That way the Paladin can party with the Asassin and not have to be at each others throats all the time. I'm actually still working on my alignment system and how much I want it to affect my game world, but thats a long story. I still wont let my party rape and kill wantonly without some very real and severe consequences.

[RS14]

The solution isn't to just do nasty things to them until they agree. That's a great way for the group to just decide they aren't interested in playing any more.
QFT.

You've got to face the fact that for the foreseeable future, the games will probably be like this. Is it worth it to stick around then? Maybe. But I'm a Play-by-Poster myself.
When you do DM, you could switch over to dungeon crawls. That minimizes their interactions with normal society. Put unicorns in the dungeon if killing good creatures makes them happy.

Another alternative would be to change your setting. D&D is traditionally filled with commoners ripe for slaughter, but if you set your games in a world ravaged by X and accustomed to constant war, you can justify their
victims putting up a fight. Even if they kill their victims, maybe it's common for undead to kill and raise people as more undead, so everyone carries alchemists fire and immolates themselves as imminent death approaches. This at least deprives them from loot from random slaughters.
You could also have your players acquire corruption (ADOM) or taint (UA) which mutates them into forms more like the evil creatures threatening civilization. You might also make them more vulnerable to the weapons commonly carried against such creatures (Maybe they take additional damage when struck with a cold iron weapon? Maybe it's additional nonlethal damage? Maybe it's something more creative, like insanity.)

[warmachine]

I'd start wondering if these players are mentally ill. Playing evil characters is fun and so is Paranoia but they think being good is hard and boring at their age? I'd expect some to regard good as naive, play anti-heroes or some to be selfish but pointless violence? I'm wondering if they wish they could do that in real life. They get upset when the law notices and opposes them? Even if they don't like the law, they're old enough to know why the law intervenes. I'd expect them to attack the law enforcers, not get upset.

I'm wondering if you ought to get out before they do something nasty in real life.

[Severus]

If they're all having fun, and you're not, then time to find a new group.

I don't think they're going to stop until they tired of that style of game. I do think it's an age thing. (44 year old gamer here, who admits he did it when he was a teen.)

[F.L.]

Oh, and another possibility is to have everything in the world with an int score run away from the players. They'll accumulate some swag, sure, but no xp, no society to interact with, no quests, no nothing. And they think good characters are boring. Or just send them the same commoners to slay every session.

[graymachine]

Well, it doesn't seem to me that you have people playing evil characters. Maybe some Monty type of evil. The problem seems to go much deeper than playing evil characters; it seems as though these people don't have well thought out characters. Evil characters (that is PCs) don't just go around killing everything in sight for the reason that they are "Blarg! Evil!" Evil characters can even do noble or great things, but their reasons for doing so are drastically different from the good character. I recently played in a game as a Neutral Evil rogue in a party that was primarily good, and included a paladin. I didn't go around slaughtering the innocent; I was simply looking out for number one. I worked with the party well because my character recognized that it was in my best benefit to work with them. You can have remarkable characters that are evil for the best of intentions; look at Redcloak in OotS. I think, since you seem to be saying that your fellow players are committed to playing evil characters and you are hesitant to abandon the group you should encourage them to be better roleplayers.

[metalbear]

One idea is to pit them up against an evil NPC that resents the group. Possibly some variety of serial killer that is jealous of the infamy that the group is gaining. Some variety of assassin or another would fit the bill of serial killer. This assassin would then start to hunt the party members, picking them off one by one. If they end up being able to kill the serial killer, you can simply create several more lower level killers and claim them to be copy cat killers. This may not prevent them from playing all evil campaign in the future, it may persuade them to consider something different.

[commander43]

See, the problem probably isn't the evil itself but the way the evil seems to work. It seems to just be a random team of sociopaths who just so happen to work together and not betray eachother.

I've roleplayed very evil characters who do not rape and pillage at all. It's kind of ridiculous for them to say that good is limiting when it seems that they pigeonhole themselves into the same old stupid "evil for evil's and profit's sake" thing every time.

[Stephen_E]

The big problem with 'evil' campaigns is that evil in D&D is an inherently self-destructive force. Evil characters almost always work in a manner that causes harm and/or resentment in others, even if they do so in a way that their victims aren't immediately aware of their actions. Evil characters will usually plot and scheme, especially against other members of their group.


To be honest Ralfarius you sound like the mirror image of this group.
You think "Evil" is childish/immature, they think "Good" is boring/staid.

In DnD evil isn't inherently self-destructive. Evil is basically selfishness in DnD.

Personally my PCs are all over the place, with the exception that I've never played a Paladin in over 20 years of gaming, but that's more a matter of the class leaving me flat rather than the archtype (I've played a NG Orc Barb/Fighter/Exotic WM/Tribal Protector follower of Corellon that went around on a Wild Cohort Hv Warhorse, wearing Mithral Fullplate and protecting innocents and fighting EVIL, both large and small).

My campaigns have been probably roughly 40%/50%/10% on the Good/Neutral/Evil because frankly I've played with more people who have shallow/simplistic concepts of evuil than I have people who have shallow/simplistic concepts of good.

Regarding this group I'd suggest that the poster sit down with the other players and point out that the random butchering ecetre causing attacks by high level forces IS the sensible reasonable response by NPCs in the world. Say that if we're going to play evil campaigns I'd like them not to be so monty haulish (which sounds like is the biggest problem with your campaigns). If they have to start playing more intelligent thoughtful evil campaigns they may become more receptive to the idea that good campaigns can also be multi-diemensional experiances.

Stephen

[d12]

My first impression is just, yeah, evidently there's incompatibility with the group..best to just find a new group or start playing online (my group typically does play-over-IM games). At some level though, I'd have to wonder if the rest of the group really gets what evil is. Random acts of carnage are all well and good, but they don't really serve much purpose. Evil is being completely willing to step on whoever you need to step on in order to get what you want. Do these guys have goals? Even "moar powaa/moneys!!" would work out (that's all my characters tend to be interested in). Now, if they happen to have a feat which gives a bonus to saves or attacks or whatever for 24 hours per bar wench they give the old in-and-out to then at least that'll get them something. For the record, I'm not really big on playing goody-goodies either (I don't think I've ever played a character with a good alignment)..just not my style. I tend to prefer the amoral mercenary bastard kind of character. Whether that's evil or neutral I can't really say..depends on what exactly he does and how I guess. Oh, and yes, I do consider good to be boring/lame/all that stuff (mid-20s here). It mostly boils down to 'yeah, goody-goody heroes, I've watched that only everyday since I was three, boring' in my case. Playing an evil-centric game actually sounds like fun. :smallbiggrin: The whole random-mayhem-for-no-reason thing kind of escapes me though. Maybe your group should play some Grand Theft Auto to get that out of their systems before gametime? Does wonders for me when I need to let the rage out.

At the same time though, dropping over-powered encounters on them till they bleed is just as likely to get them to figure you're just being a pansy with deep-seated emotional issues who just can't handle t3h 3bil, with the obvious solution being to amp up the evil. That's typically how I would respond anyway. Then it's just a matter of who says "OK, screw this, I'm gonna play Oblivion/Neverwinter/whatever instead" first, and nobody really wins there (if the win condition is defined as "we sit around the table and play some D&D"). And we all know sitting down and talking about it is out of the question. :smallwink:

[F.L.]

Now, if they happen to have a feat which gives a bonus to saves or attacks or whatever for 24 hours per bar wench they give the old in-and-out to then at least that'll get them something.

Ah, but that leaves something to ponder, is it more evil to do terrible things to get some kind of vile reward, or is it more evil to do them for evil's sake?

[d12]

Ah, but that leaves something to ponder, is it more evil to do terrible things to get some kind of vile reward, or is it more evil to do them for evil's sake?

Now that's the kinda thing that'll keep you up nights. :smallbiggrin: I'm from a very "yeah, but what does that do for me exactly?" style of play though. Random, extremely visible acts of carnage may be a wee bit counterproductive in the long-run, outside of truly wonderful circumstances. And I'm not a fan of the evil=stupid school, so the man with the plan will know better than to randomly run around setting small kids on fire while cackling like a madman. Sure, it's probably a blast, but you gotta wait till you've established some manner of stranglehold or are otherwise an unstoppable machine that will just grind any kind of opposition under its wheels. Then feel free to make them all pay, or dear God how they will pay, muahahahaha!!!

[SmartAlec]

If they want to play Evil, make them play Evil. Try suggesting that the party become low-ranking henchmen of a powerful group of Evil NPCs, who will not hesitate to punish them if they foul up.

"You KILLED TOWNSFOLK? What part of 'SECRET MISSION' did you not understand?!"

[kjones]

I think the problem that you're having isn't necessarily with the fact that these people are playing evil characters, but rather with the sort of evil characters that they play. Their idea of evil seems to center around senseless violence, which for me gets tiring very quickly but I guess is enough to keep some people coming back for more.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. But don't let them get away with senseless evil, or random violence. Instead, come up with far-reaching goals - "I want to become ruler of this kingdom, through whatever means necessary!" is a lot more fun than "I want to slaughter innocent civilians." I'm not too fond of evil campaigns myself, but one shortcoming of good-aligned campaigns is that they tend to be reactionary; some evil force is wreaking havoc and the characters are running around trying to stop it. You're evil! Take the initiative!

If you're not keen on this idea, consider the same approach, only channeling their violent instincts surreptitiously into some greater good. Slaughtering innocent civilians? Maybe not, but nudge them in the direction of the evil kingdom, and suddenly they're doing the world a favor.

Finally, don't listen to the people who are saying "Stop playing with them" or "find a new group". I understand that that's not really an option for most people, and given the choice between D&D or nothing, you'll take D&D, even with a group whose outlook doesn't align with your own.

[Murongo]

IMO alignments are stupid and you shouldn't play with them. Decide beforehand what motivates your character specifically. Offer to play a game with your group with no alignments and I guarantee you get characters far more complex than your standard D&D stereotype dudes. My biggest character I ever had had no alignment but if you had to give him one you could argue lawful neutral, lawful evil, chaotic neutral and neutral, because he didn't have an overarching classified personality, he had specific motivations.

My question to you would be do you have to be an evil character to survive in the party? A lawful neutral guy could whip that group into shape pretty quick if he were powerful and authoritative enough.

[Elven Paladin]

I want to thank everyone for their feedback; it's all been really helpful. It also made me realize that there have been a few times where I enjoyed our evil campaigns. Most notably where I played a LE Fighter known only as 'The Traitor.' He was a knight who had betrayed his goodly king in favor of an evil warlord, but he never lost the knightly ideals he had learned. He just perverted them to evil ends. He didn't walk around just murdering people, but he didn't really care who got in his way if there was a mission or his lord was involved. He was a pretty good party leader too...maybe I need to dust off that ole' character sheet.

[malcolm]

Getting enjoyment from playing evil characters does not mean that the players are childish. What makes someone appear childish is onto on their moral high-horse and talking down their noses at players that have legitimate fun in their games.

Just get past the kid-stuff, these are adults we are talking about.

That being said it is not unreasonable to desire a good-aligned game once in awhile. I personally find that being stuck in a certain alignment mindset can be tiresome after several campaigns of the same thing. Mature and reasonable people should be able to come to a consensus about how to spend their gaming time. Maybe this is the OP's chance to run his own campaign?

[Dairun Cates]

Getting enjoyment from playing evil characters does not mean that the players are childish. What makes someone appear childish is onto on their moral high-horse and talking down their noses at players that have legitimate fun in their games.

Just get past the kid-stuff, these are adults we are talking about.

That being said it is not unreasonable to desire a good-aligned game once in awhile. I personally find that being stuck in a certain alignment mindset can be tiresome after several campaigns of the same thing. Mature and reasonable people should be able to come to a consensus about how to spend their gaming time. Maybe this is the OP's chance to run his own campaign?

While I'd tend to agree that you shouldn't judge the play style of others. We are talking about people who seem to be enjoying fake raping and torturing people. I think maturity IS something we can rule out.

[Elven Paladin]

I do run...alot. It's just that if I put an alignment restriction on the game either no one wants to play or their "good to neutral" comes off as very evil. I know the game's just about having fun, so now I just let 'em play evil. Still...

[Saint George]

Well, you know how the one rogue who is secretly CE annoys the crap out of the good parties? You should be the rogue who is secretly LG that annoys the crap out of the evil party.

Pickpocket them in their sleep and give it to charity.
Tip off local authorities about their where abouts.
Secretly use non-lethal damage to not kill anyone.
Etc. etc.

[herrhauptmann]

If you're all about smacking down the players, the best thing to do, is ahve them captured by slavers.

Or, start a ravenloft campaign as it's meant to be run. Most people treat it as a creepy background to go hunting vampires and werewolves, and with the powercreep, that is pretty much what it becomes too...
Since all the ravenloft campaigns I've been in, the magic items were about double to triple in price, fights generally became much tougher than they should be (ask me sometime about the goblin Blixx). And lacking sufficient magic items can make you pretty nervous come sunset, especially if you've been whacking townies to the point where no one will shelter you. It gets worse if you think you've gained the attention of a domain lord.

There's all those other ravenloft treats too, like madness checks. Or power checks to see if you've been noticed by the Dark Powers.

[Elven Paladin]

Well, you know how the one rogue who is secretly CE annoys the crap out of the good parties? You should be the rogue who is secretly LG that annoys the crap out of the evil party.

Pickpocket them in their sleep and give it to charity.
Tip off local authorities about their where abouts.
Secretly use non-lethal damage to not kill anyone.
Etc. etc.

I really like this idea. Now I've got an idea for a Rogue/Paladin who finds himself struggling to stay with this party in the hopes of their redemption. Just that pesky rule about "not being able to associate with evil characters." Hmmm.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

I'd advise against the "out-evil the evil guys" approach. I've tried it, and I felt squicky afterwards. Plus, it didn't work. Make sure that their evil behavior affects their characters in a negative way when appropriate. If they're too powerful for the run-of-the-mill law-enforcement to cause problems for them, they'll probably have gotten noticed on a wider scale. See to it that their reputation follows them. Have them denied service when they need it, and if they kill the service providers, send heroes after them. They're not the only one with swords and magic, after all. Trick the good guys out and have them whomp the party nigh-unto death, so that they barely escape with their lives. Maybe have them lose some important belongings too. Oh, did that paladin sunder your weapon? I'm so sad. Really. Most important, if they whine like little babies, don't give in to them. These are the realistic consequences of their behavior.

I'd personally twist their metaphorical nipples until they lay writhing at my feet, begging for mercy, but that may not be the way you want to go.

-Blue

[CthulhuM]

If you can't get them to stop being evil, I'd suggest playing a campaign with a different kind of evil. One campaign idea I'd actually like to run sometime is a party of Kaorti.

The Kaorti, if you aren't familiar, are basically a group of people who spent several generations living in the Far Realm, and returned to the material plane to find that it had become poisonous to them. They can only survive by encasing their settlements (or bodies) in alchemical resin, and have the rather long-term goal of spreading their influence throughout the material plane, turning it into a nightmare realm that more resembles the far realm than anything else. A group of Kaorti characters would have plenty of chances to be evil, but they'd have to do so intelligently, or they'd just get killed - either by the rest of the world (which would kill them all in an instant if it really knew about them) or their superiors (for being a danger to the cause).

Plus, when they inevitably try to rape someone anyway, you can inform them that they are unable to do so, on account of being asexual.

[EvilJames]

if they find good to be boring or hard then I get the feeling that they don't know how to play good (or evil for that matter) the best suggestions I've seen so far are just set the law after them, send heroes and what not. Give them realistic consequences for there actions (or in this case it seems any consequences at all) If they insist on crying foul for it simply explain that that's what happens when you break the law. If they want to know how the good guys know what they look like, inform the players that they don't know how the good guys know who they are, "you'll have to figure it out". (you should however some up with a reason of coarse. perhaps a surviving witness that they didn't know about, or a speak with dead spell)

This may not convince them that they should try a good or neutral campaign but at least it will liven up the evil one, because in all honesty what you've described sounds really dull so far.

[Kompera]

I'd advise against the "out-evil the evil guys" approach. I've tried it, and I felt squicky afterwards. Plus, it didn't work. Make sure that their evil behavior affects their characters in a negative way when appropriate. If they're too powerful for the run-of-the-mill law-enforcement to cause problems for them, they'll probably have gotten noticed on a wider scale. See to it that their reputation follows them. Have them denied service when they need it, and if they kill the service providers, send heroes after them. They're not the only one with swords and magic, after all. Blue and a few others previously have nailed the solution. Your group needs to understand that they don't exist in a vacuum.

They should eventually get the same kind of reputation as the bad family/gang in a Western. They are all bullies, and perhaps have committed a few more serious crimes, but they are strong enough as a group that when they ride into town, the common folk react by pulling their wives and kids off of the streets and closing their doors. The barkeep may pour them drinks, but only because he's too afraid to refuse them service. And the lawmen in town are constantly breathing down their necks, looking for an excuse to run them in. If the lawmen do manage to catch them in the act, they'll be jailed. If they resist, they'll be looking at a gunfight. And the area Marshal will be called in to assist if the local lawmen can't handle the group by themselves. If necessary the locals of fighting age will be deputized.

In the end, inevitably, they will either be jailed or killed. Unless they are the rulers, that has to be the end result. They can't kill everyone else, and by killing enough people they will eventually and inevitably piss off either enough people or the wrong people, or both.

Their behavior is ill considered, and so is their reaction to any consequences they bring upon themselves through their childish behavior. You may be the youngest, but you seem to be the most mature amongst the group. Perhaps it's time to train up some replacements?

I'm actually surprised that this group enjoys D&D at all. I'd expect people with their attitudes to prefer FPS games with spurting blood and no consequences, or GTO type games where they can smack a 'ho to advance the "plot" line.

[Stephen_E]

If they want to play Evil, make them play Evil. Try suggesting that the party become low-ranking henchmen of a powerful group of Evil NPCs, who will not hesitate to punish them if they foul up.

"You KILLED TOWNSFOLK? What part of 'SECRET MISSION' did you not understand?!"

I love this concept.:smallbiggrin:

Stephen

[Fiery Diamond]

I read the first page, so I'll admit to not knowing what was suggested after that. I probably would vomit if I had to read more descriptions of your group's evil and any suggestions about out-eviling them.

I suggest ....
... stop playing. Seriously. I live in a small town, and I got a group together from scratch - two friends plus my family. I'm now at college, and I've got a group that I created here. Dump your current group. I know you said you didn't want to do that - my question: why the * do you associate with people like that in the first place? If it is impossible to form a new group, then try this: stop playing D&D AT ALL. Play video games or computer games to fill the void. The only thing that makes tabletop games better (and admittedly, it makes them MUCH better) is interaction with other people with roleplaying. If you don't have quality interaction (and it sounds like you're pissed, so I'd so you don't) then there is NO reason to play D&D instead of, say, Neverwinter Nights.

Just my 2c worth.

- Fiery Diamond

[Yogi]

Reading your descriptions, you have a very bad case of The Stupids, and you can't cure The Stupids. Find a new group, on the Internet if you have to.

[TGWG]

this is a forwarning; this is not about out eviling them
this is about showing them their own evil.

Make them see exactly what they're doing. find a recording of a scream, and a child's sobbing the; the more convincing the better. find accurate pictures of of real torture, mayhem and slaughter; the more disgusting the better. show it to the party in high def full sized. be more discriptive and emotional during their rampages and rape. Introduce racism, specism, anger, and sadness, into the campaign. make it convincing. show them the most heart wenching thing you can imagine. make them relive horrible deeds done to them in real life. and show them that it was they that did it.

in other words
Traumatize them

Make the game more like real life - not realistic - but like real life cruel and unfeeling.


...


man I never knew I could be so evil

ok. got that out of my system - somewhat. another thing you can do is give them chances to do good deeds. they don't have to be plot relvent, just thngs to prove or change their alignment. ex

1. they walk into a village and find that everyone has been groutesquly murdered. parts of bodies litter the floor, blood stains most ot the buildings, and a routing smell saturates the air (bring in rooting meat with you that day) - and in one of the buildings, hiding behind a closet is a traumatized little girl. she won't speak to anyone, all she does is tremble and cry. what do the players do?

2. they're walking on a road to town when they com across a lump in the roud. upon further inspection they find that it is a mother - dead of exaustion - and a small child still clinging to his/her mother and crying softly. they are a mile from the nearest town. What do the players do?

3. while they are are raping a bar wench have her five year old girl walk in on them. she is distressed and tears are running down her face. the little girls pounds on one of the players with her doll sixed fist, trying to get them to stop hurting mommy, while her mother pleads for her to run away. Control one of their caracters to beat the little girl to death and disfigure her face. let the characters brood over this.

Another suggestion I have is that if they are going to control evil characters, let the evil control them. occasionaly force a character to do something so evil it is on a completly different level from what they normaly do.

...

am I still evil?

[Infernal Undead]

I would recommend using some kind of published adventure path or at least parts of it. If you want to get them away from wanton slaughter and their high level perhaps a slightly modified version of the Savage Tide adventure. You have to admit the idea of becoming Prince of Demons should be a good motivation for an evil party.

Another idea is to simply remove evil from the world or at least knowledge of it. Perhaps a campaign in a world before Asmodeous turned evil. Perhaps an evil god of time sends them back in time to ensure the fall of Asmodeous.

Simply make the normal towns very generic. In one town everyone has a gold mask and blue robes because that is what they know to where.(A.k.a. hyper lawful.)

Then add other towns where no one has anything of value or barely anything. When they slaughter someone have random people come by to take items players would consider not worth taking, like perhaps the persons shoes.

Anotehr option would be to play an evil campaign and before it starts tell the players "Ok heers a summary of the intended plot line. You've been selected to bring ruin to the upper planes because of your dark heritages."

When they begin the adventure have an old man that will tell them to obtain and shatter the sphere of goodness(don't know if its an actual item I just made the name up) and to bring the items to a certain area.

If they kill him and take his stuff before he gets to tell them have them continue the game and later on in the same or another session have a group of clerics track them down perhaps they will beging by saying something like 'Hail thee Scions of Evil' and then followed by 'Our master seeks a metting with you to confer his unholy blessing'. After that have one of them cast gate to make a portal to the Abyss and start entering it. If the players don't enter have a demon appear and tell them to enter.

Once they enter they will see Demogorgan and he will say "Hand me the shards of the sphere." Now the players have a problem since if they killed the person they don't have it. If they manage to get out of the situation Demogorgan orders them to find it and another item at another adventure site. Demogorgan and the cultist than leave. If they gave him the item he would give them somekind of reward and return them to the prime.

Now then your players likely killed the old guy with out listening. Now if they don't have planeshifting spells they need to get another one and have to find another demon that will help them leave. Of course the demon will want something too.

Now then assuming none of this works I have three words. Dark Sun setting.

Assuming they never played planescape before here is a rather humorous idea. Have them wind up in Sigil and have the see the Lady of Pain flay someone. When they murder someone have a randon archon passing by.

As for the rape part simply make it that every barmaid they rape is a succubus.
Player - "I rape the barmaid."
You - "Make a fortitude save."

Sure statistically its unlikely but they eventually get the idea. Perhaps going back to the colecting items for demons idea perhaps a demon lord replaced several people in a town with demons in an attemp to gain a stronghold and told them all about a goal that you make the others fail and the demons goals require the players thus their always arround the players.

Now then assuming you give in to the evil thing since their are areas where living people actually do live there perhaps have a campaign set in the abyss.

[raygungothic]

Infernal - Actually, in Sigil, the DM is well within his rights to make a high proportion of barmaids succubi. Where's a grinning-devil smiley when I need one?

This is sick, though. You can't reform parties like that. Making their actions have emotional consequences only rewards them. Making their actions have retributive consequences only annoys them. Out-eviling them will only give them ideas.

If you're DMing, you could try making them first level in Planescape (and keeping them there for a long time - there's no rule about how much XP you have to give out per session, and the DM is in no way obligated to provide level-appropriate foes so they're unlikely to be winning a lot of fights). In the real world, many people's sicker impulses are somewhat restrained by the knowledge that the world can squash them flat if they get noticed. D&D often lacks that... but not in the situation described. In Sigil, f'rinstance, dangerous bystanders are very easy to imagine on-the-fly. The bar wench (The aforementioned succubus, with class levels), the mugger (high-up blood fallen on hard times through faction intrigues), the street urchins (archangel in disguise, hungry Slaad illusionist with a messed up sense of humour), the bookshop proprietor (don't ask) - any of them might be more powerful than the party can handle, so it won't so much be a case of "they get punished for their evil deeds" as "they won't dare try anything too outrageous in the first place". *Some* people in society aren't particularly powerful in mechanistic terms - but it doesn't automatically correlate with appearance, so finding out who's fearsome is a matter of hard work and social skills, not cracking open the Monster Manual. It *might* make for a more healthy dynamic - something very similar has worked pretty well for me on a party with a certain number of problem players.

Really sorry to hear the OP's only local party is like this, though. Sucks when that happens. See if you can find some new recruits, probably non-gamers (go very rules-light with them) or inexperienced gamers? and carefully run something exclusively for them that starts them on the right foot.

[SoD]

Play as a good character. Who is convinced that the party isn't evil ''just misunderstood''. Doesn't really stop them being evil, but it can be fun RPing in front of authorities. You detect as good, yet you stay with them trying to convince everyone that they're not evil. I'm sorry, your detect must be faulty.

[Roderick_BR]

Seems like they want to play GTA in D&D.
Well, you can say that playing evil is "hard and boring" :p

Anyway, it's all up to the DM. If you feel like it, you could try DMing once.
1) Crime and Punishment: Have powerful good-aligned parties hunting down badies. At first, only famous NPCs, not the PCs. The party should quickly notice they'll be next. If they are attacking people on towns, have someone on their tails. Have no mercy.
2) Reward: Have the group be rewarded by good deeds. The hardest heart can melt when they have a whole village/town thanking them for saving them from some big danger.
3) Danger's path: As part of the previous one, have several situations pop up where they don't need to be good, but if they act, it'll result into a good deed. For example, a group of marauders invading a city. If the players get in the way, they'll attack. Then if the PCs win, they'll have done a good deed, even if they didn't notice at first.
4) Who's badder?: Read Book of Vile Darkness and Tomb of Horror, and make NPCs that are *really* sick and twisted. With luck, the players will be so sickened that they'll feel like taking down the monsters.

That said, I think that anti-heroes are still fine, and are quite fun several times, just make sure they are going against the "real" baddies.

Just don't forget, you need to make the badies REALLY bad, since your group will find them "cool" in a first moment. If you do get some angry comment out of your group against an evil NPC, then you are making a good job.

[Hexus]

Ban Chaotic Evil. They can still play LE and NE (which might be worst the chaotic in some cases). If they still feel the need to be CE let them, but show them how real CE villains operate (NPC's) that way the character can treat them any way they want. The CE npc's will probably see them as weak and do some great injustice to them. Honestly during the quest to get there revenge on the true CE npc's you might see a few alignment changes. To sum it up, trick them into playing a good campaign. Have the npc's double cross them, get to something before them, kill off maim and "do nasty things" to some one they care about, turn them into slave. You get the idea =)

[sapphail]

This party sounds truly tedious and juvenile - I don't care if they're older, that doesn't mean they're more mature. Someone mentioned Ravenloft - this is well worth looking into if they believe playing good characters is 'hard work'. A few failed Powers checks and the ensuing consequences (or have them piss off the Vistani...) should give them pause for thought. :smallamused:

Seriously though, if I were you I'd play with another group til these guys grow up... if they ever do.

[Ralfarius]

To be honest Ralfarius you sound like the mirror image of this group.
You think "Evil" is childish/immature, they think "Good" is boring/staid.
Hey now, I thought I put some qualifiers in there. If not, my apologies. However, what I was trying to get at is that the 'evil' that most younger folk like to play is decidedly immature. I'm not saying that evil is always a silly thing to play. I've played a handful of evil characters in my time, and I can recognize the opportunity for good RP in an evil character/campaign.


In DnD evil isn't inherently self-destructive. Evil is basically selfishness in DnD.
I should clarify myself somewhat, here. By self-destructive, I meant that because of the selfishness inherent in evil characters, and the desire to fulfill that selfishness, groups of evil characters are predisposed to self-destructing. That is, any number of the group will betray the others if it fulfills their selfish desires. I mean, how many stories end with everyone in the evil organization living contentedly with one another? It usually ends up someone betraying someone else, who is in turn betraying another, and so on until it collapses in on itself.

That isn't necessarily the case, but the very nature of putting ones own interests at the forefront of all their decisions, without a moral compass, is leading toward that sort of end. Not a bad RP opportunity, again, because cloak & dagger double crossing can be pretty nifty and lead to dramatic confrontations. However, it is destructive to a functioning group dynamic.


Personally my PCs are all over the place, with the exception that I've never played a Paladin in over 20 years of gaming, but that's more a matter of the class leaving me flat rather than the archtype (I've played a NG Orc Barb/Fighter/Exotic WM/Tribal Protector follower of Corellon that went around on a Wild Cohort Hv Warhorse, wearing Mithral Fullplate and protecting innocents and fighting EVIL, both large and small).
I've run the gamut of alignments and character concepts, as well. Actually, now that you mention it, I do remember a lawful good half-orc fighter who focused on sundering opponent's weapons in order to convince them to surrender without bloodshed. There was the notable exception of full orcs, whom he bore a personal grudge against, but all in all, he played very much like the almost stereotyped "give them a chance to surrender" goody-goody. I've also played some pretty despicable characters, and everything in between.


My campaigns have been probably roughly 40%/50%/10% on the Good/Neutral/Evil because frankly I've played with more people who have shallow/simplistic concepts of evuil than I have people who have shallow/simplistic concepts of good.
I would say by your experience - which seems to be a fair bit, you seem like a seasoned sort of person - that you've seen a pretty good cross-section of the gaming community. To be honest, I would bet that in most places, you'd find a fairly similar divide of players who work best with good/neutral/evil characters. In my mind, most people view evil as bag-of-gophers swinging crazy, or cacklingly EEEBIL while you eat another puppy, or a constant detriment to other members of the party while they try their darndest to look out for number 1.

Not to say there aren't people out there who are capable of playing thoughtful, fleshed-out evil characters with realistic goals and reasonable back-stories.


Regarding this group I'd suggest that the poster sit down with the other players and point out that the random butchering ecetre causing attacks by high level forces IS the sensible reasonable response by NPCs in the world. Say that if we're going to play evil campaigns I'd like them not to be so monty haulish (which sounds like is the biggest problem with your campaigns). If they have to start playing more intelligent thoughtful evil campaigns they may become more receptive to the idea that good campaigns can also be multi-diemensional experiances.
This isn't bad advice. There's always the chance to try and steer their focus in a better direction, and it would be more likely than making them pull a full 180. If you start with baby steps, you may be able to even have a role-playing experience where an evil character has some sort of epiphany, and doesn't want to be completely evil anymore. Or any number of developments.

My reaction was sort of knee-jerk, admittedly. However, from the description of the group, I got the feeling that they're not seeing eye-to-eye with the OP, and reasoning would be difficult, at best.

[sapphail]

I'm not saying that evil is always a silly thing to play. I've played a handful of evil characters in my time, and I can recognize the opportunity for good RP in an evil character/campaign.

[snip]

My reaction was sort of knee-jerk, admittedly. However, from the description of the group, I got the feeling that they're not seeing eye-to-eye with the OP, and reasoning would be difficult, at best.

While it's true that an evil character can make for good role playing, it takes a fairly disciplined player to keep it from veering off into predictable neanderthalism, which is what seems to be happening with this group. It doesn't sound like they're terribly interested in playing the role with any particular depth or intelligence, rather playing moronic violence/vileness for it's own sake. I tend to deal with this kind of thing with brutal abruptness ('The paladins attached to the local church take exception to your actions...') when I'm DMing as it tends to sidetrack the campaign, though that may not be your style. Still, from my own experience group like that only mature when they get bored or the DM 'suggests' they get on with it. I'd still look out for other groups if I were you.

[Elven Paladin]

this is a forwarning; this is not about out eviling them
this is about showing them their own evil.

Make them see exactly what they're doing. find a recording of a scream, and a child's sobbing the; the more convincing the better. find accurate pictures of of real torture, mayhem and slaughter; the more disgusting the better. show it to the party in high def full sized. be more discriptive and emotional during their rampages and rape. Introduce racism, specism, anger, and sadness, into the campaign. make it convincing. show them the most heart wenching thing you can imagine. make them relive horrible deeds done to them in real life. and show them that it was they that did it.

in other words
Traumatize them

Make the game more like real life - not realistic - but like real life cruel and unfeeling.


...


man I never knew I could be so evil

ok. got that out of my system - somewhat. another thing you can do is give them chances to do good deeds. they don't have to be plot relvent, just thngs to prove or change their alignment. ex

1. they walk into a village and find that everyone has been groutesquly murdered. parts of bodies litter the floor, blood stains most ot the buildings, and a routing smell saturates the air (bring in rooting meat with you that day) - and in one of the buildings, hiding behind a closet is a traumatized little girl. she won't speak to anyone, all she does is tremble and cry. what do the players do?

2. they're walking on a road to town when they com across a lump in the roud. upon further inspection they find that it is a mother - dead of exaustion - and a small child still clinging to his/her mother and crying softly. they are a mile from the nearest town. What do the players do?

3. while they are are raping a bar wench have her five year old girl walk in on them. she is distressed and tears are running down her face. the little girls pounds on one of the players with her doll sixed fist, trying to get them to stop hurting mommy, while her mother pleads for her to run away. Control one of their caracters to beat the little girl to death and disfigure her face. let the characters brood over this.

Another suggestion I have is that if they are going to control evil characters, let the evil control them. occasionaly force a character to do something so evil it is on a completly different level from what they normaly do.

...

am I still evil?

This won't phase them. They're my friends, but they seriously are pretty twisted. I won't lie when I say sometimes I feel like the only N in a sea of CE.

[Cristo Meyers]

This won't phase them. They're my friends, but they seriously are pretty twisted. I won't lie when I say sometimes I feel like the only N in a sea of CE.

Yeesh, in all honesty, if this is their idea of a good time I can't imagine even wanting to be around them much less game with them.

It's one thing to play Evil characters, it's another entirely to do so just so you have an excuse to rape, pillage, and burn (in that order) your way across an imaginary world.

"Bad gaming is better than no gaming" is a lie. My opinion is leave. I was in much the same position you were once: I was having fun occasionally and ignoring the differences we all had in playstyle. Then the group blew up in my face. Best get out before it starts to unravel.

[Alex12]

Why do they, as a party, stick together as a cohesive unit? Find that out, and start undermining it, when you're DMing. Got an evil cleric? When he meditates for his spells, pass him secret notes telling him that his god feels that the others are obstructing the god's goals. When you give out treasure, give out small quantities of valuable stuff, so that one or more of them loses out. Give them a Helm of Opposite Alignment, or something similar. If they try to destroy a church of a good god, oops, the highest-ranking cleric there had a Talisman of Ultimate Good. If they want to rape a barwench? Well, she had an STD, make a Fort save.

When you're a PC, start off evil. As you progress, don't just have your character be static in terms of personality. After a sufficiently traumatic near-death experience, have your character have a change of heart- maybe they'd never before considered their own mortality, and realized that they really don't want to go the the Abyss when they die.

[Dode]

Give them a copy of FATAL and find a new campaign.

[Cristo Meyers]

Give them a copy of FATAL and find a new campaign.

That was my first reaction as well.

[Behold_the_Void]

Give them a copy of FATAL and find a new campaign.

Sounds about right.

[Stephen_E]

Why do they, as a party, stick together as a cohesive unit?

Because they're friends?
Evil people can and do have friends whom they feel loyalty to.

I'm reminded of a topic with a young female player and a GM with an extremely male chauvanist world. Lots of people suggested in game actions but it turned out the problem was solved with some simple out-of-game discussion. The DM simply hadn't realised how unpleasant she was finding it (yes, people can be that obtuse). It may well be that they simly don't realise that you aren't enjoying it as much as they are. I can't promise anything but I seriously think out of game discussion is the 1st step. It may not work, but these guys are your friends, it's not impossible that they'll take on what you say. I'm not suggesting they'll all suddenly play Paladins, but you may get them to stretch their gaming experiance.

Stephen

[Elven Paladin]

Because they're friends?
Evil people can and do have friends whom they feel loyalty to.

I'm reminded of a topic with a young female player and a GM with an extremely male chauvanist world. Lots of people suggested in game actions but it turned out the problem was solved with some simple out-of-game discussion. The DM simply hadn't realised how unpleasant she was finding it (yes, people can be that obtuse). It may well be that they simly don't realise that you aren't enjoying it as much as they are. I can't promise anything but I seriously think out of game discussion is the 1st step. It may not work, but these guys are your friends, it's not impossible that they'll take on what you say. I'm not suggesting they'll all suddenly play Paladins, but you may get them to stretch their gaming experiance.

Stephen

I suppose I should bring the topic up with them. Couldn't hurt, could it? They don't all need to play paladins either...just give me the chance to play one.

[Nonah_Me]

I sometimes feel like this when playing with my regular group. I find that it's not really the fact that ALL my freinds play Chaotic Stupid characters, but just one of them. Often this person is the newest to the game (at least in my group).

If playing with these abominations is too much, but you want some good Role Play (tm) then I suggest buying a copy of Neverwinter Nights and hitting up the online community. I was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons through Richterm's Retreat: The Land of Nordock. If you play NWN online, I suggest going there.

[Khosan]

Give them a copy of FATAL and find a new campaign.

Dude.

Giving them FATAL is like giving them a terminal illness. It's a step too far.

[Belteshazzar]

It sound like you are in the kind of group that makes Jack Chick seem right about RPGs. Seriously if all they want to do is rape, kill and murder in fantasy land then you should remember don't need a gaming group as bad as you think you do. However, If you do want to make them learn that they aren't as 'magnificently wicked' as they think they are then Fae opponents are defiantly they way to go.

[Ralfarius]

There's only one thing left to do... Poison their chili.

[dyslexicfaser]

Well, you know how the one rogue who is secretly CE annoys the crap out of the good parties? You should be the rogue who is secretly LG that annoys the crap out of the evil party.

Pickpocket them in their sleep and give it to charity.
Tip off local authorities about their where abouts.
Secretly use non-lethal damage to not kill anyone.
Etc. etc.

That could be pretty funny.

The next time they're about to despoil a barmaid or whatever, run up and stab her in the kidneys - using a merciful weapon.

She wakes up inside of 10 minutes and walks it off.

[horseboy]

Give them a copy of FATAL and find a new campaign.

Darn, and I was going to suggest Kill Puppies for Satan (http://www.lumpley.com/puppies.html). But yeah, FATAL would work too.

[Cybren]

This reminds me of an issue of Knights of the Dinner Table.
The best way to combat that kind of stupidity (and it is stupidity, they're not "evil", they're just doing ridiculous to fictional characters to impress each other) is to have them achieve emotional attachment to the NPC's. You have to handle this like BA would.

I recommend use of some sympathy NPCs. You have to attack the players, not their characters. Your targets are their guilt, compassion, ego, and fear.

Have a sickly orphan raising his two younger siblings beg for some gold. Maybe it will turn out the players had murdered his parents.

Have an NPC follow them around telling them how cool they are.

Have a villain who is someone they truly hate. Make sure the villain beats them without engaging in combat either, so that they don't even have the satisfaction of rolling dice. This way you focus them towards a single goal. If Gillywant the gnome sorcerer tricked them and now has all their gear they'll be too busy trying to get revenge then to be ebal!11

[Elven Paladin]

Hey, it's me, the OP. I just want to thank everyone for their feedback. It's all been really helpful. I've been reading through all your suggestions, and think I now may be able to keep control of my evil party. I'm going to be starting A Dark and Stormy Knight soon, so I'm not too worried about the party being evil as of yet. But if the game lasts, I'll be sure to use some of the tricks I've learned from this discussion. Thanks again.