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WolvesbaneIII
2022-06-30, 09:14 AM
I was reading through some D&D stuff and I read that liches require to eat souls.

Now I don't know if this applies to 3rd edition or if its just a thing that applies to some of the specific liches or its all of them.

Xykon does not need rest, sleep or to eat.

What does he need to function? to exist? besides mass slaughter? and other impractical jokes?

Can anyone confirm what a lich needs to have in order to exist or is it just a phylactery in the 3rd edition?

Peelee
2022-06-30, 09:23 AM
I was reading through some D&D stuff and I read that liches require to eat souls.

Now I don't know if this applies to 3rd edition or if its just a thing that applies to some of the specific liches or its all of them.

Xykon does not need rest, sleep or to eat.

What does he need to function? to exist?

Entertainment.

KillianHawkeye
2022-06-30, 10:44 AM
I was reading through some D&D stuff and I read that liches require to eat souls.

Where did you read this? I've never heard of anything like that before. :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2022-06-30, 11:02 AM
Where did you read this? I've never heard of anything like that before. :smallconfused:

Probably in a source tied to 5e. The 5e MM has for liches "must periodically feed souls to its phylactery, or it will eventually fall apart, becoming a demilich"

But 3e doesn't have that - and instead has demiliches as as very much an upgrade, rather than a downgrade.

WolvesbaneIII
2022-06-30, 03:39 PM
Probably in a source tied to 5e. The 5e MM has for liches "must periodically feed souls to its phylactery, or it will eventually fall apart, becoming a demilich"

But 3e doesn't have that - and instead has demiliches as as very much an upgrade, rather than a downgrade.

thats probably it.

so liches can just keep existing without needing to eat, drink or sleep.

and aside from some mechanics that reduce xp they seemingly have no drawbacks.

Or do they? what drawbacks do liches have?

Fyraltari
2022-06-30, 04:21 PM
thats probably it.

so liches can just keep existing without needing to eat, drink or sleep.

and aside from some mechanics that reduce xp they seemingly have no drawbacks.

Or do they? what drawbacks do liches have?

Almost no sense of smell and taste, probably not a whole lot of touch either, no sleep and no friends.

brian 333
2022-06-30, 09:18 PM
thats probably it.

so liches can just keep existing without needing to eat, drink or sleep.

and aside from some mechanics that reduce xp they seemingly have no drawbacks.

Or do they? what drawbacks do liches have?

While powerful, they are still undead. With all of the various items and spells devoted to the destruction of undead, listing their immunities is easier than their vulnerabilities.

There is a level 7 spell, Command Undead, and of course, undead are vulnerable to Turn Undead attempts. Either of these would anger Xykon when they end, so it's probably best to make sure he doesn't survive the experience.

Redcloak has the levels to use either against Xykon. Durkon would need a really good roll on his attempt, but it is within the realm of possible if the thread on character levels is anywhere near accurate.

Sunburst is also particularly useful versus undead. Vaarsuvius should be able to inflict 16 or more d6 damage to Xykon or 8d6 if Xykon Reflex saves against it. This would also inflict 6d6 on Redcloak and MitD, and give us our first glimpse of MitD because it negates non-epic darkness.

Roy's sword has also been shown to be damaging to Xykon, and of course, the ghost martyrs were tearing him a new one with positive energy right before Miko destroyed the object to which they were bound.

An epic Mace of Disruption would come in handy in Minrah's hands, if anyone knows where to find one.

WolvesbaneIII
2022-06-30, 10:18 PM
While powerful, they are still undead. With all of the various items and spells devoted to the destruction of undead, listing their immunities is easier than their vulnerabilities.

There is a level 7 spell, Command Undead, and of course, undead are vulnerable to Turn Undead attempts. Either of these would anger Xykon when they end, so it's probably best to make sure he doesn't survive the experience.

Redcloak has the levels to use either against Xykon. Durkon would need a really good roll on his attempt, but it is within the realm of possible if the thread on character levels is anywhere near accurate.

Sunburst is also particularly useful versus undead. Vaarsuvius should be able to inflict 16 or more d6 damage to Xykon or 8d6 if Xykon Reflex saves against it. This would also inflict 6d6 on Redcloak and MitD, and give us our first glimpse of MitD because it negates non-epic darkness.

Roy's sword has also been shown to be damaging to Xykon, and of course, the ghost martyrs were tearing him a new one with positive energy right before Miko destroyed the object to which they were bound.

An epic Mace of Disruption would come in handy in Minrah's hands, if anyone knows where to find one.

ok, but aside from some weakness to things that typically hurt undead, the lich does not need anything to exist.

I guess I was not really clear.

if you lock a vampire in a space that it can't get out of, it will need blood to survive or it dies or becomes feral or whatever.

if you lock an orc in a space it will die of hunger and lack of water. or lack of air if it has no air in said space.

A lich would continue to exist in said space it can't get out of. it needs not the likes of food, water, or even air. it would just be REALLY bored.

ff7hero
2022-06-30, 10:51 PM
Almost no sense of smell and taste, probably not a whole lot of touch either, no sleep and no friends.

Practically speaking, lacking a sense of touch would make one extremely clumsy. He can speak without any of the usual tools for that and he isn't constantly tripping and dropping things, so he probably has some magic sense of touch.

brian 333
2022-06-30, 11:16 PM
ok, but aside from some weakness to things that typically hurt undead, the lich does not need anything to exist.

I guess I was not really clear.

if you lock a vampire in a space that it can't get out of, it will need blood to survive or it dies or becomes feral or whatever.

if you lock an orc in a space it will die of hunger and lack of water. or lack of air if it has no air in said space.

A lich would continue to exist in said space it can't get out of. it needs not the likes of food, water, or even air. it would just be REALLY bored.

Liches have issues with boredom anyway. That's where demiliches come from.

The lich, having defeated anything that matters to it, uses Astral Projection to travel the multiverse, exploring strange new worlds and terminating new life and new civilizations.

Its corpse, safely secured in the stronghold of the lich, remains as a safety device in case the astral form, or a physical form manifested on another plane by the lich, is destroyed. At that point the silver cord anchoring the lich to its corpse snaps the wandering spirit back to its body.

Demiliches occur after ages of abandonment of the corpse. Its magical animation allows the corpse to perform as if it remembers what it was when it had a soul, but it can't really do much but react. A lich can return to its corpse if it feels threatened, but usually by this stage of its unlife it has forgotten about its body.

Demi in demilich refers to the fact that it is only half a lich: the physical part. That's why they tend to be weaker in combat than a true lich. First edition demiliches would even forget they were in a fight after launching a few powerful spells.

Crimsonmantle
2022-06-30, 11:39 PM
Tsukiko knew what he needs.

Squire Doodad
2022-06-30, 11:54 PM
I was about to say a lack of an AMF, but I think that just screws with his magic instead of being lethal outright.

The MunchKING
2022-07-01, 12:33 AM
There is a level 7 spell, Command Undead, and of course, undead are vulnerable to Turn Undead attempts. Either of these would anger Xykon when they end, so it's probably best to make sure he doesn't survive the experience.

Redcloak has the levels to use either against Xykon.

IIRC Liches get a +8 to levels to resist turning attempts, so I'm not even Redcloak could do it without really good rolls.

Apparently IDNRC, the SRD says it's only a +4 resistance to turning (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm). Still needs them good rolls.

Fyraltari
2022-07-01, 05:35 AM
Practically speaking, lacking a sense of touch would make one extremely clumsy. He can speak without any of the usual tools for that and he isn't constantly tripping and dropping things, so he probably has some magic sense of touch.

That's why I said "not a whole lot". He obviously can feel the objects he's touching, ptherwise he'd break them with his inhuman strength, but I doubt he can feel a light breeze or the sun on his skull and all the other subtler feelings that come with having skin.

brian 333
2022-07-01, 07:46 AM
I suppose a 'best answer' to the OP is that a lich needs nothing.

It's phylactery is an insurance policy: it is only needed when its corpse is destroyed. Otherwise, a lich can continue indefinitely without one, and make a new one if its old one is destroyed.

A lich has no food requirement. Its sustenance is derived from the magic which created it. Physically, its requirements are those of an animated skeleton.

Lord Torath
2022-07-01, 08:54 AM
That's why I said "not a whole lot". He obviously can feel the objects he's touching, ptherwise he'd break them with his inhuman strength, but I doubt he can feel a light breeze or the sun on his skull and all the other subtler feelings that come with having skin.I was under the impression that liches had roughly human-strength. Did they get a strength boost in 3.0/3.5? In 2E anyway, their damage came from their chill touch, not from their presumably-mage-level strength.

Fyraltari
2022-07-01, 08:59 AM
I was under the impression that liches had roughly human-strength.

Don't know about liches in general, but Xykon certainly does (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

dancrilis
2022-07-01, 09:23 AM
Can anyone confirm what a lich needs to have in order to exist or is it just a phylactery in the 3rd edition?

He only needs the phylactery in the event that he is destroyed - in general he needs nothing, in theory he could bury himself in the sand for ten thousand years and emerge as if nothing has happened.


Almost no sense of smell and taste, probably not a whole lot of touch either, no sleep and no friends.

Liches don't normally lose smell or touch to memory (in fact they get better as wisdom covers things like perception).


Taste he did lose - but Redcloak didn't know he would.




Apparently IDNRC, the SRD says it's only a +4 resistance to turning (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm). Still needs them good rolls.

Unless Redcloak is the same level as Xykon (or has items etc to help) I don't think he can do it with good rolls - he needs a 22 or higher on his turning check to hit his level +4 and Xykon treats himself as having a +4 level due to turn resistance (or such is my reading).

Alcore
2022-07-01, 10:59 AM
I was reading through some D&D stuff and I read that liches require to eat souls.

Now I don't know if this applies to 3rd edition or if its just a thing that applies to some of the specific liches or its all of them.


I don’t recall 3.5 saying anything… I think they did souls in 2e and some 5e material brings it back. If 3e had it it then went missing from 3.5.

As much as I love them not reprinting sometimes you need too or things are lost.

KorvinStarmast
2022-07-01, 12:56 PM
Tsukiko knew what he needs. *snicker*
But to answer your question:
What things does Xykon "need?"
Taste buds. :smallwink:

brian 333
2022-07-01, 01:27 PM
*snicker*
But to answer your question:
What things does Xykon "need?"
Taste buds. :smallwink:

And a thneed. Everybody needs a thneed.

Precure
2022-07-01, 05:37 PM
Friendship.

137beth
2022-07-02, 08:11 PM
Friendship.

So he needs to get the roaches to sing that song from Anything Goes?:smallbiggrin:

Satohika
2022-07-03, 05:15 PM
He needs to die for everyone's sake.

WanderingMist
2022-07-04, 08:26 AM
Sunburst is also particularly useful versus undead. Vaarsuvius should be able to inflict 16 or more d6 damage to Xykon or 8d6 if Xykon Reflex saves against it. This would also inflict 6d6 on Redcloak and MitD, and give us our first glimpse of MitD because it negates non-epic darkness.

Pretty bold to assume the umbrella isn't using epic darkness. Or something somehow even higher.

brian 333
2022-07-04, 01:53 PM
Pretty bold to assume the umbrella isn't using epic darkness. Or something somehow even higher.

I'm a bold person who isn't afraid of being wrong. I started a thread once about how many times I can be wrong. I still owe Peelee enough Canadian dollars to cover the cost of sixty quatloos.

(Don't tell him. I told him I put the money under the same rock I got the quatloos from.)

But, pray tell, why would a darkness device ever need to be epic? It's entire purpose is to being a running gag, so if it ever fails prematurely, I'm sure there will be a curtain or column, or something, blocking our line of sight.

Peelee
2022-07-04, 02:01 PM
I still owe Peelee enough Canadian dollars to cover the cost of sixty quatloos.

I have zero objection to CAD but I do demand it be paid in either r loonies or toonies. I am willing to accept other forms of CAD assuming their names are ridiculous enough.

Malloon
2022-07-05, 12:34 PM
A sense of purpose. Fun. Sanity. Friends. A conscience. Insert joke or seemingly profound sentiment here.


Liches have issues with boredom anyway. That's where demiliches come from.

The lich, having defeated anything that matters to it, uses Astral Projection to travel the multiverse, exploring strange new worlds and terminating new life and new civilizations.

Its corpse, safely secured in the stronghold of the lich, remains as a safety device in case the astral form, or a physical form manifested on another plane by the lich, is destroyed. At that point the silver cord anchoring the lich to its corpse snaps the wandering spirit back to its body.

Demiliches occur after ages of abandonment of the corpse. Its magical animation allows the corpse to perform as if it remembers what it was when it had a soul, but it can't really do much but react. A lich can return to its corpse if it feels threatened, but usually by this stage of its unlife it has forgotten about its body.

Demi in demilich refers to the fact that it is only half a lich: the physical part. That's why they tend to be weaker in combat than a true lich. First edition demiliches would even forget they were in a fight after launching a few powerful spells.

That actually sounds like quite a fun afterlife - besides the part about "terminating new life and new civilisations". They could potentially offer entertainment years to millennia to millions of years down the line, why destroy them now? Very wasteful.

PontificatusRex
2022-07-06, 12:28 AM
Taste buds. :smallwink:

Okay, but seriously, yes.

Xykon really valued the small pleasures in life. He enjoyed playing the role of the villain to the hilt in this sword and sorcery cliche world, but after the plumbing stopped working a good cup of coffee was what it was all about.

Obviously, there's no feasible way the Order could stumble on this information, but I really think that if the heroes could figure out away to restore a lich's ability to taste he would absolutely trade that for giving up on his plan for the Gates, like in a second. Sadly, liches are immune to illusion so Elan can't just create an illusion of a really good (or really bad) cup of coffee, but liches can see without eyes and hear without ears. I assume that whoever created the original ritual to transform into a lich thought that seeing and hearing were important for getting around and survival in general and so figured out a way to make those senses work without their organic components, but didn't think it worthwhile include taste and smell as part of the magic. If there was a way to give a lich the ability to taste, I really think it would be a total game changer.

woweedd
2022-07-06, 02:21 AM
Okay, but seriously, yes.

Xykon really valued the small pleasures in life. He enjoyed playing the role of the villain to the hilt in this sword and sorcery cliche world, but after the plumbing stopped working a good cup of coffee was what it was all about.

Obviously, there's no feasible way the Order could stumble on this information, but I really think that if the heroes could figure out away to restore a lich's ability to taste he would absolutely trade that for giving up on his plan for the Gates, like in a second. Sadly, liches are immune to illusion so Elan can't just create an illusion of a really good (or really bad) cup of coffee, but liches can see without eyes and hear without ears. I assume that whoever created the original ritual to transform into a lich thought that seeing and hearing were important for getting around and survival in general and so figured out a way to make those senses work without their organic components, but didn't think it worthwhile include taste and smell as part of the magic. If there was a way to give a lich the ability to taste, I really think it would be a total game changer.
I mean, even if they could, I feel like they'd feel kinda obliged to take him down, being as A. They're good people, and adventurers at that and B. He's a ruthless monster who spends all his time inflicting pain and death upon others for his amusement, and, while giving him back on of the other joys in his life may help that, I doubt he'd cease to be an evil monster who is a threat to, like, everyone on the planet every second he spends un-dead. I mean, he was murdering animals for fun at age 4, and killed his own parents, along with a disabled man, at age 12. Basically, I don't think the odds of Xykon being dealt with diplomatically is....At all.

Alcore
2022-07-06, 09:45 AM
If there was a way to give a lich the ability to taste, I really think it would be a total game changer.

Maybe... there is a debuff in "Libris Mortis" (a 3.5 supplement) that removes a number immunities that undead are known for. There are also spells out there to add flesh to a skeleton and to preserve dead flesh. Add them all up and he might be able to taste.

WolvesbaneIII
2022-07-07, 02:52 PM
can xykon transform into something else and acquire those "abilities"?

by that, I mean can he polymorph or whatever into a dragon like V did and eat his opponent? Could he as the 3 spirits cited "taste like victory"?

could he therefore turn into a dwarf and drink beer, tasting it?

what about becoming a human and drinking coffee, supposing the transformation spell he casts on himself were to do that?

What are the limits of magic in the base game?

InvisibleBison
2022-07-07, 02:59 PM
can xykon transform into something else and acquire those "abilities"?

by that, I mean can he polymorph or whatever into a dragon like V did and eat his opponent? Could he as the 3 spirits cited "taste like victory"?

could he therefore turn into a dwarf and drink beer, tasting it?

what about becoming a human and drinking coffee, supposing the transformation spell he casts on himself were to do that?

Yes, he absolutely could. Liches are only immune to polymorphing effects cast by others; they can transform themselves just fine. We don't know if Xykon knows any polymorph spells, but even if he doesn't, that just means he needs to obtain a magic item of some sort, which shouldn't be too hard.


What are the limits of magic in the base game?

D&D doesn't have a coherent system of magic. Magic can do whatever the various spells and magical abilities say it can do, and can't do anything else. There are no hard rules as to what is or isn't possible.

Fyraltari
2022-07-07, 03:04 PM
can xykon transform into something else and acquire those "abilities"?

by that, I mean can he polymorph or whatever into a dragon like V did and eat his opponent? Could he as the 3 spirits cited "taste like victory"?

could he therefore turn into a dwarf and drink beer, tasting it?

what about becoming a human and drinking coffee, supposing the transformation spell he casts on himself were to do that?

What are the limits of magic in the base game?

There are spells that allows a Sorcer like Xykon to transform into something else, like this one:

Shapechange

Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

Focus: A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

But Xykon only has access to specific spells if he's chosen to learn them when going up a level and he doesn't get that many new spell with each level.

WolvesbaneIII
2022-07-07, 07:56 PM
Yes, he absolutely could. Liches are only immune to polymorphing effects cast by others; they can transform themselves just fine. We don't know if Xykon knows any polymorph spells, but even if he doesn't, that just means he needs to obtain a magic item of some sort, which shouldn't be too hard.



D&D doesn't have a coherent system of magic. Magic can do whatever the various spells and magical abilities say it can do, and can't do anything else. There are no hard rules as to what is or isn't possible.

interesting. but would a lich who is polymorphed gain the sense of taste and smell?

dear god, I swear at least 11% of xykons murders could be prevented with a spell making him able to eat and drink. but thats all. the rest are just a slightly less angry xykon.

KorvinStarmast
2022-07-07, 08:46 PM
can xykon transform into something else and acquire those "abilities"?

He doesn't want to, because for him Power is what it's about.

InvisibleBison
2022-07-07, 10:16 PM
interesting. but would a lich who is polymorphed gain the sense of taste and smell?

I would say he would, yes. Alter self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm), which is the basis for all shape-changing spells in 3.5, doesn't explicitly say that you gain the senses of the form you assume, but it does say that you gain the "physical qualities" of the form, and that you don't get any extraordinary sensory abilities. It's not an airtight case, but I'd say that the spell should give normal senses.

WolvesbaneIII
2022-07-08, 09:26 PM
He doesn't want to, because for him Power is what it's about.

well, power in this case is the power to drink a cup of coffee, which he was quite mad about.

so, I would imagine the ability to drink coffee and taste it would be something he might do to keep busy when he isn't making magic items and killing people.

he does get bored easily, and I would imagine it would keep him busy for like an hour if he takes the time to enjoy a few cups.

now this is up to the writer, in this case the giant, but I would imagine he would enjoy a cup of joe after a killing spree. and then turn back.

He did take time for leisure activities, like drawing RC getting the boot, so some other leisure activities aren't out of the question.

Dame_Mechanus
2022-07-08, 11:14 PM
well, power in this case is the power to drink a cup of coffee, which he was quite mad about.

so, I would imagine the ability to drink coffee and taste it would be something he might do to keep busy when he isn't making magic items and killing people.

he does get bored easily, and I would imagine it would keep him busy for like an hour if he takes the time to enjoy a few cups.

now this is up to the writer, in this case the giant, but I would imagine he would enjoy a cup of joe after a killing spree. and then turn back.

He did take time for leisure activities, like drawing RC getting the boot, so some other leisure activities aren't out of the question.

Yeah, but that takes spell slots he could be using for more fun stuff. Xykon is absolutely not the sort of person to whom "creature comforts" are a priority; he wants to be entertained, and what entertains him the most is hurting people or things. It makes him laugh, even more if someone else is taking everything really seriously and it just doesn't bother him. Insulting allies who can't afford to be without him and/or can't stop him even if they want to, wrecking things, killing living beings, flexing his power... he's not hard to understand. He's the kid who thinks it's funny to sprinkle a ring of salt around a slug and watch it suffer, except to him everything is a slug.

Or to put it another way - yes, he's no doubt powerful enough to shapeshift into a form that could enjoy a nice cup of coffee. But if he were the sort of person who would consider that a worthwhile use of his power, he wouldn't have allied with Redcloak and become a lich in order to gain more power in the first place.

WolvesbaneIII
2022-07-09, 12:10 AM
Yeah, but that takes spell slots he could be using for more fun stuff. Xykon is absolutely not the sort of person to whom "creature comforts" are a priority; he wants to be entertained, and what entertains him the most is hurting people or things. It makes him laugh, even more if someone else is taking everything really seriously and it just doesn't bother him. Insulting allies who can't afford to be without him and/or can't stop him even if they want to, wrecking things, killing living beings, flexing his power... he's not hard to understand. He's the kid who thinks it's funny to sprinkle a ring of salt around a slug and watch it suffer, except to him everything is a slug.

Or to put it another way - yes, he's no doubt powerful enough to shapeshift into a form that could enjoy a nice cup of coffee. But if he were the sort of person who would consider that a worthwhile use of his power, he wouldn't have allied with Redcloak and become a lich in order to gain more power in the first place.

I guess my question is, if he has the slots to spare, he might cast the spell on a slow killing day. He spent how many hours torturing ochul in azure city. how many slots does he need to spend on torture, and how many on coffee?

I'm guessing he could become "human" or whatever, with 1 spell, then dismiss it at his leisure.

I don't think xykon uses all his spells on a casual tuesday. Maybe dungeon crawling he won't have spells to spare, but he did waste 1 on some art drawing him kicking RC's butt.

so instead of drawing tasteful art, he could just use the spell to drink coffee instead.

But he already wasted a spell drawing RC being kicked, so maybe coffee can wait tomorrow.

woweedd
2022-07-09, 05:53 PM
I guess my question is, if he has the slots to spare, he might cast the spell on a slow killing day. He spent how many hours torturing ochul in azure city. how many slots does he need to spend on torture, and how many on coffee?

I'm guessing he could become "human" or whatever, with 1 spell, then dismiss it at his leisure.

I don't think xykon uses all his spells on a casual tuesday. Maybe dungeon crawling he won't have spells to spare, but he did waste 1 on some art drawing him kicking RC's butt.

so instead of drawing tasteful art, he could just use the spell to drink coffee instead.

But he already wasted a spell drawing RC being kicked, so maybe coffee can wait tomorrow.

To be clare: Xykon does not have spell slots, in the traditional sense. He has a list of spells he knows, and he can cast any spell of a given level a certain number of times, until he can't cast any more spells of that level until he recharges. But he has access to his full spell list (for the levels he hasn't used up) at all times, no slots needed. That's how sorcerers work. The downside is that his pool of spells is much more limited: Even at Level 20, you only get 3 9th-level spells. Meanwhile, a Wizard can have as many spells as will fit in his spellbook, but has to prepare them ahead of time from that pool, rather then just having them on tap, and gets far less uses per day, usually only getting one of each spell a day, but having room for more spells per level then Xykon. For Xykon to learn Shapechange, he'd have to either have chosen it as one of his 3 9th-level spells, or swap one of those spells for it at one of his even-numbered levels. Alter Self, meanwhile, would have taken one of his 5 2nd-level slots. Clearly, he did not.

Dame_Mechanus
2022-07-09, 06:19 PM
I guess my question is, if he has the slots to spare, he might cast the spell on a slow killing day. He spent how many hours torturing ochul in azure city. how many slots does he need to spend on torture, and how many on coffee?

Based on what we saw him casting? Zero; Ray of Frost is a cantrip. (I don't think he was using Scorching Ray for his Redcloak art, because I think there's a flame-based cantrip that he could have been using instead. You will hopefully forgive me for not going searching.)

But even that is kind of talking around the point you're asking. It's not that anyone thinks Xykon couldn't do this. He is capable of it. The question is why Xykon specifically would want to. There's no indication that he's the sort of person who would go out of his way for any sort of creature comfort, and so either he doesn't know the spell and finds the idea of searching for it too time-consuming or he just doesn't care.

This was what I was trying to get at before. The sort of person who thinks "I can shapeshift back into a living form and enjoy the sublime taste of a well-brewed cup of coffee to ease my mind" is not the sort of person who tells a goblin "yeah, cut out my heart and turn me into an undead spellcasting monstrosity." It might be possible for there to be a lich who actually (un)lives that way, but that is not Xykon. There are a lot of narrative and characterization reasons why this is the case, and those are probably more pertinent than whether or not it is strictly something Xykon is capable of doing.

Peelee
2022-07-09, 06:40 PM
To be clare: Xykon does not have spell slots, in the traditional sense.
Sorcerers have spell slots. They just don't need to prepare spells i their spell slots.

Based on what we saw him casting? Zero; Ray of Frost is a cantrip.
Cantrips still need spell slots in 3.5.

Dame_Mechanus
2022-07-09, 07:17 PM
Cantrips still need spell slots in 3.5.

Fair enough! So that answer would be moved from "zero" to "one."

WolvesbaneIII
2022-07-12, 03:16 PM
Based on what we saw him casting? Zero; Ray of Frost is a cantrip. (I don't think he was using Scorching Ray for his Redcloak art, because I think there's a flame-based cantrip that he could have been using instead. You will hopefully forgive me for not going searching.)

But even that is kind of talking around the point you're asking. It's not that anyone thinks Xykon couldn't do this. He is capable of it. The question is why Xykon specifically would want to. There's no indication that he's the sort of person who would go out of his way for any sort of creature comfort, and so either he doesn't know the spell and finds the idea of searching for it too time-consuming or he just doesn't care.

This was what I was trying to get at before. The sort of person who thinks "I can shapeshift back into a living form and enjoy the sublime taste of a well-brewed cup of coffee to ease my mind" is not the sort of person who tells a goblin "yeah, cut out my heart and turn me into an undead spellcasting monstrosity." It might be possible for there to be a lich who actually (un)lives that way, but that is not Xykon. There are a lot of narrative and characterization reasons why this is the case, and those are probably more pertinent than whether or not it is strictly something Xykon is capable of doing.

this is actually a plot point in a past book. he didn't know he'd lose his sense of taste.

This made xykon angry, as if he was looking forward to the taste of coffee specifically.

The spell to polymorph would be a way to bypass that, but maybe it won't work or he didn't think of that.