Can a druid turn into a SPECIFIC beast?

[Damon_Tor]

So if I'm a druid of at least second level, could I turn into, for example, the Baron's housecat? With the very specific markings, nicked ear, and docked tail that would lead the Baron to conclude that I am, in fact, his housecat?

It seems there is no reason why not.

[JNAProductions]

So if I'm a druid of at least second level, could I turn into, for example, the Baron's housecat? With the very specific markings, nicked ear, and docked tail that would lead the Baron to conclude that I am, in fact, his housecat?

It seems there is no reason why not.

I'd probably call for a check, to see how good your disguise is.
Wisdom (Deception), with disadvantage if you've only barely observed the cat, normal roll if you've had some interactions but not a ton, and advantage if you've spent a lot of time with the cat.

[nickl_2000]

Seems legit to me, but it would need a deception or possibly animal handling check to make have the Baron not think anything is going on.

As with 99% of Wildshape/polymorph questions, the real answer is "Ask your DM"

[Catullus64]

I'd probably call for a check, to see how good your disguise is.
Wisdom (Deception), with disadvantage if you've only barely observed the cat, normal roll if you've had some interactions but not a ton, and advantage if you've spent a lot of time with the cat.

The baron's glance shifts wildly, his hand frozen on the hilt of his sword. Two cats before him in his bedchamber, identical... his spies had warned him of the infiltrator, but which one is the real Sir Mittens?

One cat comes and rubs affectionately against his leg, purring gently as it does so. The other gives him a look of indifference, jumps up onto the nightstand, and pushes his wine-cup onto the floor.

The baron draws his sword and slices downwards in one practiced motion, slicing into the neck of the cat at his feet. There is a yowl, a crash, and at the baron's feet is the ruined form of a robed figure, blood from the death-wound mixing on the floor with spilled wine.

That was too close, he thinks to himself, as Sir Mittens begins shredding his great-grandfather's tapestry.

[Damon_Tor]

Followup question: if I become a specific beast with different stats than the basic version, do I gain those stats?

Let's say the fighter in the party challenged some knight to a joust. The Knight shows up with a warhorse that's abnormally fit, with +10 extra feet of movement speed and advantage on saving throws vs exhaustion. I wildshape into that particular warhorse. Do I get those bonuses?

[Sigreid]

I would rule no on the horse thing as I interpret it as you turn into an average member of the species. Appearance can be to your preferences though.

[Unoriginal]

So if I'm a druid of at least second level, could I turn into, for example, the Baron's housecat? With the very specific markings, nicked ear, and docked tail that would lead the Baron to conclude that I am, in fact, his housecat?

I would say no.



It seems there is no reason why not.

Two reasons:

1) The Wildshape ability is plenty powerful (not to mention useful for infiltration already), it shouldn't on top of that have the power of a Disguise spell or a disguisement kit with 0 investment.

I have no problem with a Druid using Wildshape + another method to look like the Baron's cat, but not Wildshape by itself.

2) Thematically, I prefer to imagine the Wildshape as "the Druid, but as X creature". Ex: if an old human Druid with a scar on the left eye turns into a Bear, they would look like an old bear with a scar on the left eye.

I admit this one is just an arbitrary preference, though.

[Damon_Tor]

I would rule no on the horse thing as I interpret it as you turn into an average member of the species. Appearance can be to your preferences though.

That isn't what the feature says though. It says you turn into "a beast you have seen". Not "a type of beast you have seen" or "a species of beast you have seen." If I had an ability to turn into "a rock you have seen" I would expect to be a copy of that rock, cracks and all, not a similar rock of similar origins.

[nickl_2000]

Followup question: if I become a specific beast with different stats than the basic version, do I gain those stats?

Let's say the fighter in the party challenged some knight to a joust. The Knight shows up with a warhorse that's abnormally fit, with +10 extra feet of movement speed and advantage on saving throws vs exhaustion. I wildshape into that particular warhorse. Do I get those bonuses?

Personally I say yes. As long as the beast doesn't have legendary actions or spellcasting you can wildshape into it (if it does you don't get spellcasting or legendary actions). As long as the changes don't put it into a new CR that is outside of your range. I personally see this as similar to the difference between a Wolf and a Dire Wolf. You can use either stat block as long as it fits your CR range allowed.


This also fits into my original comment about Wildshaping


As with 99% of Wildshape/polymorph questions, the real answer is "Ask your DM"

[Sigreid]

That isn't what the feature says though. It says you turn into "a beast you have seen". Not "a type of beast you have seen" or "a species of beast you have seen." If I had an ability to turn into "a rock you have seen" I would expect to be a copy of that rock, cracks and all, not a similar rock of similar origins.

And your DM or you as DM can rule that way.

[Mastikator]

I'd probably call for a check, to see how good your disguise is.
Wisdom (Deception), with disadvantage if you've only barely observed the cat, normal roll if you've had some interactions but not a ton, and advantage if you've spent a lot of time with the cat.

Ditto.

Though I'd give advantage if you got proficiency in disguise kit. (which cancels out, etc etc)

[Damon_Tor]

Now what if the beast has class levels (ie, sidekick system)?

[nickl_2000]

Now what if the beast has class levels (ie, sidekick system)?

No, definitely not. You can be the beast, but you don't get the class levels.

[afroakuma]

With the caveat that I don't 5E... I would rule against all of these as a DM.

1) You can definitely attempt to take the shape of the Baron's housecat; however, this will ultimately be limited by your familiarity with said cat. Merely having seen it once is no basis for being able to replicate it in full detail. For comparison, imagine I glance at a page of a book and then transform into a copy of that page. My transformation ability is linked to my perception, not some extrinsic reality, so I could resemble that page but would not actually reflect any text on said page that I had not personally read and remembered was present.

As an alternate comparison, imagine the Baron's housecat is another druid taking on the shape of some unknown cat. Would you, by seeing this cat, be unable to take its shape, and thus instantly become aware that it is not a housecat? Would you take on the shape of the actual entity, and become the other druid? Would you take on the shape the other druid is in, but gain the other druid's capabilities? I would assert none of these. Your perception was that you saw "a cat" and transformed into "a cat." You can use what you personally know to try and be more like that cat, but that's a Disguise check.

As far as the nick on the ear specifically, unless you personally possess a nick on your ear, I don't think this can or should be reflected. You might think it's positive to say "I can reflect physical damage of the thing I turn into," which will feel great right up until the DM shows you a dog with kidney failure. :smalltongue:

2) I would not allow exceptional statistics to be taken on, since statistics can't be "seen." Once again, all the DM needs is a glamered horse that's actually got a Constitution of "glue" and you will be quite unhappy with the results. You take on the shape of a healthy specimen with average stats, and while you may resemble a more muscular or more lean version of whatever the animal normally looks like (again, Disguise check), that doesn't mean the body you took on has the aptitude to make use of it.

3) Class levels? Definitely not. If your DM allows this, I would like some of what they are smoking.

[Sigreid]

Now what if the beast has class levels (ie, sidekick system)?

That would most likely put it's CR out of reach I would think

[JLandan]

As a DM, how I would rule...

All must be beasts you have seen.

Specific beast... yes

Extraordinary beast... yes, but be aware that a significant improvement would make it a higher CR and might remove it from availability.

Imitating behavior of a specific beast... yes, but requires a Charisma (deception) check, the same as imitating a humanoid's behavior.

The form of another wildshaped druid... yes, as long as it is in your capacity to become that beast. The other druid would know you are a wildshaped druid too, unless you could convince said druid that you are the original beast. If you did not know it was a wildshaped druid, you would not know that it wasn't the original beast.

Class features... absolutely not. Only the original stat block, as per the Wildshape description.

[Rukelnikov]

RAW it certainly seems so. In practice, it will be ruled different at each table.

However, in the case of the faster than average horse example, that probably won't bump it's CR, but if a horse has lets say 20 Str, Dex & Con, that definitely bumps its CR, so then you may not be able to turn into that specific one, cause you don't meet the requirements to do so.

[Droodicus]

I would say no.



Two reasons:

1) The Wildshape ability is plenty powerful (not to mention useful for infiltration already), it shouldn't on top of that have the power of a Disguise spell or a disguisement kit with 0 investment.

I have no problem with a Druid using Wildshape + another method to look like the Baron's cat, but not Wildshape by itself.

2) Thematically, I prefer to imagine the Wildshape as "the Druid, but as X creature". Ex: if an old human Druid with a scar on the left eye turns into a Bear, they would look like an old bear with a scar on the left eye.

I admit this one is just an arbitrary preference, though.

I second this preference of the druids physical features transferring over into the wildshape. Anyone familiar with the druid should have a chance of identifying a beast is the druid from shared characteristics. From there if you want to pull a fast one its a disguise kit like everyone else.
I had a lizardman druid who's mammal wildshapes all looked mangy as they had hairless patches that were still scaled.

As for custom creatures? No unique specimens standard statblocks only. Too much effort keeping track of the fact you are mimicking the stingray that leveled up from shanking Steve Irwin.

[Chronos]

I had a lizardman druid who's mammal wildshapes all looked mangy as they had hairless patches that were still scaled.
I kind of like the idea of the beast resembling the druid, but this, I think, is going too far. If the druid has patches of missing scales, then the beast form could have patches of missing hair, but a lizardfolk druid with normal scales should turn into a bear with normal fur or an eagle with normal feathers.

And the matching thing does have some other awkwardness... If the druid, in human form, has a scar on his left leg, then in bear form, he has a scar on his left hindleg; that's simple enough. But what if he turns into a spider; what leg is the scar on now? Does he have a scar at all if he turns into a snake? If he gets his tail cut off while in the shape of a panther, is that reflected in any way in his human form? What if it's only the tip of his tail, and then he turns into a short-tailed bear?

[Dr.Samurai]

In reading the Wild Shape ability, it seems to me you can ONLY turn into specific beasts.

"You assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before."

This can be read a few ways, but for me it doesn't say "of a type of beast you have seen". It says "a beast you have seen". If I see a zebra, I can take on the shape of that specific zebra, not "generic zebra" or "totally average zebra", because that's the zebra that I've seen.

I don't think you need familiarity because the ability doesn't say you do beyond having seen the creature, so we assume magic covers the rest.

With regards to stat blocks, while it says you use the creature's statistics and gain its proficiencies, etc., I would rule that you do not get the extra abilities of a beast with class levels. It's a safe assumption in my opinion that the ability is assuming natural beasts, and not considering beasts trained for war or druids in beast form. You're taking on the shape of the creature, so you gain it's abilities based on that shape (scent, claws, speed, etc.). Learned abilities wouldn't translate over.

[False God]

I think the confusion is stems from 5E's ever present "natural language" issue.

Beast is a type. Like Outsider, Aberration or humanoid. When it says "A beast you have seen." What the more rules-crunchy version would say is "A creature with the beast type that you have seen." but that's a bit of a mouthful. Clear, but doesn't roll off the tongue.

The further line of "Your druid level determines the Beasts you can transform into, as shown in the Beast Shapes table." now refers to beasts not in a generic creature sense, but in the specific typing sense.

So, for example, you could turn into a cat of the same type as Ser Mittens, but you could not turn into Ser Mittens specifically. 3.X specifically called out being unable to turn into a specific creature, BUT allowed you to determine the specific physical details(such as fur pattern) and sex. Since these notes aren't in 5E, I would assume that's up to the DM.

So no. By RAW you cannot. But I have allowed it as a disguise check in the past so I think it's fair.


*insert grumble here about how I wish D&D would use better typing*

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Funny enough, I did this type of thing and the DM didn't see it coming until it was too late.

Started as a Changeling Bard, at level 4 took the Actor Feat. At level 5 confused the DM when I took a level of Druid. Then again at level 6. And then I started asking if there were any notable animals as pets or just around when we have to gather info or infiltrate... O:-)

[sandmote]

As far as the nick on the ear specifically, unless you personally possess a nick on your ear, I don't think this can or should be reflected. You might think it's positive to say "I can reflect physical damage of the thing I turn into," which will feel great right up until the DM shows you a dog with kidney failure. :smalltongue: As far as I can tell, the druid would turn into that dog, feel sick (meaning whatever in-game symptoms kidney failure manifests), and can decide to change back. I'm not aware of anything forcing a PC to wild shape only into the most recent dog they've seen. So then if they've seen some other dog they can turn into the other dog in the future instead.

Could be a neat method of thwarting the druid's plans to infiltrate by disguising themselves as the noble's pet, actually. Give the noble a pug and watch the druid decide its to much of a hassle to stay wild shaped.

[elyktsorb]

Assuming the shape of a beast you've seen before is pretty spot on for allowing you to turn into specific beasts. Conversely, it means you can't be any beast other than the ones you've seen. Which would probably mean more if people made Druid's do that, but I'm pretty sure they don't.

In fact a situation where you turn into a cat, is very specific, as a lot of animals look very similar so it would never matter and only housepets or mounts would bring this kind of intimate knowledge up.

I'd allow it, because at the end of the day attempting to be a specific animal someone owns is probably far harder than just being a tiny spider on the ceiling in most cases.

If your target is wary of 'any' animals because they know a druid is after them, then they're already going to be suspect of any pets they have, heck, they might just kill/remove any pets they own from their premise for the time being, and at that point your better off being a tiny insect anyway.


Also


As a DM, how I would rule...
Extraordinary beast... yes, but be aware that a significant improvement would make it a higher CR and might remove it from availability.


I find it super funny that, you as a druid, see like, an elk, and you've never seen one before and so you decide to wildshape into it, only for it to not work. And you either think one of two things.. That it isn't an elk..

Or it's a heckin' powerful elk.

[Leon]

As far as I can tell, the druid would turn into that dog, feel sick (meaning whatever in-game symptoms kidney failure manifests), and can decide to change back. I'm not aware of anything forcing a PC to wild shape only into the most recent dog they've seen. So then if they've seen some other dog they can turn into the other dog in the future instead.


They'd look like that dog, not inherit its health problems. That would be a different more powerful magic to do that beyond what wildshape allows a Druid to do. Essentially they could add that "look" to a playbook of styles to use again.

[sandmote]

They'd look like that dog, not inherit its health problems. That would be a different more powerful magic to do that beyond what wildshape allows a Druid to do. Essentially they could add that "look" to a playbook of styles to use again.If you're describing your personal preference as DM, then that is a way of running it that can reasonably be interpreted from the text describing a druid's wild shape.

For clarity, however, I'd like to point out I was describing what I expect would happen if you run wild shape the way it was described in the quote I was responding too. Iff the DM rules they do inherit the dog's health problems, any other dog they've seen before still counts as "a beast that you have seen before," for that druid, so the most the druid has given up to find out about the health problems is one use of wild shape.

I am, however, not sure how inflicting penalties on various checks due to illness makes wild shape more powerful. If your druid visits a zoo and sees a sick tiger, one ruling would allow them to turn into a healthy tiger and the other would limit them to a sick tiger. I'm not sure the latter is more powerful magic (and it almost certainly isn't more powerful mechanically).

[Damon_Tor]

If you're describing your personal preference as DM, then that is a way of running it that can reasonably be interpreted from the text describing a druid's wild shape.

For clarity, however, I'd like to point out I was describing what I expect would happen if you run wild shape the way it was described in the quote I was responding too. Iff the DM rules they do inherit the dog's health problems, any other dog they've seen before still counts as "a beast that you have seen before," for that druid, so the most the druid has given up to find out about the health problems is one use of wild shape.

I am, however, not sure how inflicting penalties on various checks due to illness makes wild shape more powerful. If your druid visits a zoo and sees a sick tiger, one ruling would allow them to turn into a healthy tiger and the other would limit them to a sick tiger. I'm not sure the latter is more powerful magic (and it almost certainly isn't more powerful mechanically).

That depends a lot on the nature of the tiger's illness, I would think. A tiger infected with parasites, bacteria, or a virus? Well then you're not only wildshaping yourself into the tiger, you're generating a multitude of new lifeforms to inhabit that tiger. A tiger that's in poor physical condition because it's old or has a genetic defect? Sure, that is an inherent trait of the tiger and would probably be reflected in the wildshaped stats. But an infection would be a temporary effect, not really any different from if the tiger was under the effect of a spell. If you wildshape into a tiger that had haste when you saw it, would you be an extra fast tiger? No.

[nickl_2000]

Let me throw this out there. If you have encountered an awakened animal, can you wildshape into that?

Functionally the only difference is that you can talk since the creatures Int score is replaced by the PCs.

[Mastikator]

Let me throw this out there. If you have encountered an awakened animal, can you wildshape into that?

Functionally the only difference is that you can talk since the creatures Int score is replaced by the PCs.

If it's in the MM and has a CR, yes. If not, no.

[Damon_Tor]

Let me throw this out there. If you have encountered an awakened animal, can you wildshape into that?

Functionally the only difference is that you can talk since the creatures Int score is replaced by the PCs.

In keeping with what I said about a beast with "haste", I think a general assumption that spell effects, even permanent(ish) ones, probably won't carry over.


If it's in the MM and has a CR, yes. If not, no.

"Is in the MM" isn't a requirement of the ability, and would be a houserule at your table. Beasts published in later books are off limits? If WotC releases an adventure which includes a cheetah, druids can't turn into a cheetah?

And nothing about the spell Awakening says anything about changing a creature's CR.

[nickl_2000]

In keeping with what I said about a beast with "haste", I think a general assumption that spell effects, even permanent(ish) ones, probably won't carry over.



"Is in the MM" isn't a requirement of the ability, and would be a houserule at your table. Beasts published in later books are off limits? If WotC releases an adventure which includes a cheetah, druids can't turn into a cheetah?

And nothing about the spell Awakening says anything about changing a creature's CR.

I believe awaken is completely permanent. The spell can't be dispelled, at least by RAI in a sage advice tweet of unusual clarity (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/can-effects-of-an-instantaneous-be-dispelled/amp/).

There isn't anything on the spell that says it's temporary. That being said, I can see the argument either way, I was just curious.

And the intelligence won't modify the CR, assuming that it doesn't attack with INT or cast spells with INT.

[Leon]

If you're describing your personal preference as DM, then that is a way of running it that can reasonably be interpreted from the text describing a druid's wild shape.

For clarity, however, I'd like to point out I was describing what I expect would happen if you run wild shape the way it was described in the quote I was responding too. Iff the DM rules they do inherit the dog's health problems, any other dog they've seen before still counts as "a beast that you have seen before," for that druid, so the most the druid has given up to find out about the health problems is one use of wild shape.

I am, however, not sure how inflicting penalties on various checks due to illness makes wild shape more powerful. If your druid visits a zoo and sees a sick tiger, one ruling would allow them to turn into a healthy tiger and the other would limit them to a sick tiger. I'm not sure the latter is more powerful magic (and it almost certainly isn't more powerful mechanically).

What my personal way of doing it is not relevant ~ What a DM decides to alter is on them but at Core you are looking like the animal not being the carbon clone of the animal.

"you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before"
Shape: the external form, contours, or outline of someone or something.

Similarly the "Awakened" Animal is the same boat. Its animal, you see it you can change your shape into it you don't get any befit from the fact that its a "Smart" animal.

[rel]

If an NPC turned into an animal and tried to sneak up on the PC's, the players would rightly expect to be able to roll a skill check to detect the intruder.
Same ruling should apply to an infiltrating PC.

The druid can use shapeshifting to disguise themselves as an animal and engage in subterfuge, but it doesn't negate the challenge.
NPC's still get rolls to notice the druids presence by picking up on the animal behaving strangely, not looking quite right, or some similar tell.

[LibraryOgre]

So if I'm a druid of at least second level, could I turn into, for example, the Baron's housecat? With the very specific markings, nicked ear, and docked tail that would lead the Baron to conclude that I am, in fact, his housecat?

It seems there is no reason why not.

My gut is no... a druid turns into a unique cat, and, IMO, always the same one (so if a druid turns into a wolf, you can recognize that wolf if seen later, even if you don't know the wolf is a druid)

(EDIT: looking at the specific text, "Starting at 2nd levei, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before," "can turn into the Baron's Cat" is a valid interpretation, but I think RAI is "can turn into a cat".)


I'd probably call for a check, to see how good your disguise is.
Wisdom (Deception), with disadvantage if you've only barely observed the cat, normal roll if you've had some interactions but not a ton, and advantage if you've spent a lot of time with the cat.

I would allow Deception, with disadvantage. You're trying to alter a magical process into something it's not supposed to do.

[Mastikator]

My gut is no... a druid turns into a unique cat, and, IMO, always the same one (so if a druid turns into a wolf, you can recognize that wolf if seen later, even if you don't know the wolf is a druid)

(EDIT: looking at the specific text, "Starting at 2nd levei, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before," "can turn into the Baron's Cat" is a valid interpretation, but I think RAI is "can turn into a cat".)



I would allow Deception, with disadvantage. You're trying to alter a magical process into something it's not supposed to do.

I'd argue you can wild shape into the very same breed, shape, color, stripes and all of the baron's cat. But any scar would not be gained. The baron would probably need a close look to notice that *scars and blemishes may be missing.


*I am blindly assuming that medieval cats will have scars, marks, bruises, old wounds and maybe even halls etc, due to it basically being a farm cat.

[sandmote]

(EDIT: looking at the specific text, "Starting at 2nd levei, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before," "can turn into the Baron's Cat" is a valid interpretation, but I think RAI is "can turn into a cat".) I want to explicitly state I consider this reading to be RAI for the benefit of those I respond to later in this post.


That depends a lot on the nature of the tiger's illness, I would think. A tiger infected with parasites, bacteria, or a virus? Well then you're not only wildshaping yourself into the tiger, you're generating a multitude of new lifeforms to inhabit that tiger. I think the described problem exists with both readings of Core (to borrow Leon's term). If you wild shape into an otherwise healthy tiger without impacting your internal microbiome, I expect that would create severe medical issues. Particularly for creatures of vastly different size to the druid; a druid turning into a mouse would leave a volume of gut bacteria larger than the druid, and one transforming into a horse would see large parts of their body's internal surfaces left empty. Similarly, I hope you would agree that the druid shouldn't start having a stroke because the new form suddenly has an empty spot in part of the physical brain where the tiger has a parasite.

I think the least silly solution (by which I mean I don't consider any of the options very good) is that the druid's microbiota is also wild shaped (including changes in population/size) within the druid's body. Alternatively, it "merges into your new form," the same way your equipment does, and the druid's body forms a facsimile of the physical mass of the infecting agent.


A tiger that's in poor physical condition because it's old or has a genetic defect? Sure, that is an inherent trait of the tiger and would probably be reflected in the wildshaped stats. But an infection would be a temporary effect, not really any different from if the tiger was under the effect of a spell. If you wildshape into a tiger that had haste when you saw it, would you be an extra fast tiger? No. I'd say it depends on the type of infection to determine whether or not it is temporary, and an infection that will last long enough (ex: the rest of the tiger's life) probably belongs in the same category as age or any epigenetic particularities.


But any scar would not be gained.
Actually, the above makes me want to ask how you would handle examples other than scarring, such as stunted growth from malnutrition or a calico cat's pattern of fur.


What my personal way of doing it is not relevant ~ What a DM decides to alter is on them but at Core you are looking like the animal not being the carbon clone of the animal. I fail to see how saying "a druid can wild shape to assume the external form, contours, or outline of a particular individual Beast" requires any alteration to Core.


"you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before" Right. I don't see anything here discussing the level of detail the Druid can achieve. By extension I don't see why low levels of detail about which "shape" the druid assumes fit with Core just fine but high levels of detail require altering Core.

Maybe also worth pointing out that is the druid only changes externally I'm not sure you could say "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast." Although I suppose we might have different definitions of "game statistics," I generally include features listed in the given beast's default stat block, like water breathing for a fish.

[Chronos]

All the questions about gut biota and pathogenic microbes assume that such things even exist in a D&D world. One could just as easily say that gut bacterial don't help you digest your food; your life-force does that, and diseases aren't caused by microbes, but by concentrations of negative energy.

[LibraryOgre]

I completely handwave the gut microbiome question; I turn into a tiger, I don't turn into a tiger that has tummy troubles because my insides are still those of a human. If I eat as a tiger, I get full. If I get ill as a tiger, I get ill, but that illness will keep with me when I'm a human. I'm willing to wiggle my fingers and say "maaaaagggggiiiiiccccc" to keep the game going.