Are you affected by bursts centered on you?

[gadren]

I've noticed a number of spells have something like "20-ft-radius burst centered on you" listed for the area.
First off, there's the issue that bursts are supposed to be centered on a corner, not a square.
But the bigger issue, in my opinion, are whether or not you are affected by these spells.
If you cast Anger of the Noonday Sun (Spell Compendium), do you have to make a save or be blinded by yourself (and take damage if you're undead)?
Do you get the benefit of the Allegro spell (also from SC)?
Does Body of the Sun damage you? (Complete Divine specifically says it doesn't but then Spell Compendium removed that text.)
Does Dance of Ruin (BoVD) damage you when you cast it if you're not a demon?
Dissonant Chord, Energy Vortex, and Sandblast (all from SC) specifically say it only affects creatures "other than you".
The Sculpt Spell metamagic shape allows you to shape your spell's area into "a ball (20-foot-radius spread)", but does not specify that you are immune to the spell (and even uses a ball-shaped lightning bolt as its example, which I can only assume then jolts the caster unless they have sufficient electric resistance).
And so on...

[Darg]

I've noticed a number of spells have something like "20-ft-radius burst centered on you" listed for the area.
First off, there's the issue that bursts are supposed to be centered on a corner, not a square.
But the bigger issue, in my opinion, are whether or not you are affected by these spells.
If you cast Anger of the Noonday Sun (Spell Compendium), do you have to make a save or be blinded by yourself (and take damage if you're undead)?
Do you get the benefit of the Allegro spell (also from SC)?
Does Body of the Sun damage you? (Complete Divine specifically says it doesn't but then Spell Compendium removed that text.)
Does Dance of Ruin (BoVD) damage you when you cast it if you're not a demon?
Dissonant Chord, Energy Vortex, and Sandblast (all from SC) specifically say it only affects creatures "other than you".
The Sculpt Spell metamagic shape allows you to shape your spell's area into "a ball (20-foot-radius spread)", but does not specify that you are immune to the spell (and even uses a ball-shaped lightning bolt as its example, which I can only assume then jolts the caster unless they have sufficient electric resistance).
And so on...

Normally you are hit with your own area spells unless they provide exception.

Anger of the Noonday Sun: You can always close your eyes as you cast the spell. Other creatures would have to identify the spell to do the same.
Allegro: Yes, you benefit.
Body of the Sun: It wasn't removed, just rewritten. "Adjacent creatures take fire damage each round on your turn."
Dance of Ruin: Yes, you hurt yourself.
Sculpt spell has the spell take on the qualities of the specific types of areas. So yes, if the caster includes themself in the area they do hurt themselves.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Sculpt Spell metamagic shape allows you to shape your spell's area into "a ball (20-foot-radius spread)", but does not specify that you are immune to the spell (and even uses a ball-shaped lightning bolt as its example, which I can only assume then jolts the caster unless they have sufficient electric resistance).

A sculpted lightning bolt still has a range of 120ft. You don't have to stand in its area if you don't want to.

[Paragon]

What about the Dread Necromancer burst ability ?
Because if not undead of Tomb-tainted soul, he damages himself in the process

[Rleonardh]

I never heard that before.

I always thought it emulate from the spellcaster so no it doesn't affect the caster unless spell says it does.


Body of sun

By drawing on the power of the sun, you cause your body to emanate fire.

Fire extends 5 feet in all directions from your body, illuminating the area and dealing 1d4 points of fire damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d4). Adjacent creatures take fire damage each round on your turn.

No where does it say you take damage.


Allegro
(Spell Compendium, p. 9)

With a quick wiggle of your fingers and a few arcane words, you release the feather in your hand to complete the spell. Suddenly, translucent blue motes burst outward from you and collect on yourself and your nearby allies before fading away.

Each creature within the spell's area gains a 30-foot enhancement bonus to its land speed, up to a maximum of double the creature's land speed. Affected creatures retain these effects for the duration of the spell, even if they leave the original area.


You are a creature in the area as it does not say "emulate".

Maybe I just take most beneficial to caster rather it be players or NPCs/monsters and wrong about this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rules are pretty clear:

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area

Any burst centered on you starts on a grid intersection of the space you occupy, so you're in its area and are affected unless the spell specifically excludes you.

[Paragon]

The rules are pretty clear:


Any burst centered on you starts on a grid intersection of the space you occupy, so you're in its area and are affected unless the spell specifically excludes you.

Where does it say the stuff about the "grid intersection" for area spells ?
Also, admitting you're citing the rules I should, but don't, know about, doesn't Specific trumps general work here ?
In general it should start from an intersection but the spell's text overwrites it no ?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Where does it say the stuff about the "grid intersection" for area spells ?
Also, admitting you're citing the rules I should, but don't, know about, doesn't Specific trumps general work here ?
In general it should start from an intersection but the spell's text overwrites it no ?

In the rules for aiming spells (PHB p.175):

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description
specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of
the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the
spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or
objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid
intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within
the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in
squares just as you do when moving a character or when
determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is
that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center
of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
There's also a graphic on DMG p.307 that shows what spell areas look like. They all start on a grid intersection.

Being centered on you doesn't change that, it just limits the possible points of origin to the grid intersections of the space you occupy.
Specific trumps general would only apply if a spell specifically says that it's not centered on a grid intersection (which afaik no spell does).

[Biggus]

Where does it say the stuff about the "grid intersection" for area spells ?
Also, admitting you're citing the rules I should, but don't, know about, doesn't Specific trumps general work here ?
In general it should start from an intersection but the spell's text overwrites it no ?

No, the rule about starting at a grid intersection is part of the same section where they define burst spells (PHB p.175).

@OP:

The vast majority of harmful spells which are centered on you specifically exclude you. By RAW those that don't do affect you, but in the case of damaging spells in many cases the writers clearly thought it was so obvious that it didn't affect you they didn't feel the need to specify. For example:



Anger of the Noonday Sun: Your body explodes with radiance that bathes the area around you in sunlight.

This descriptive text is explicitly not RAW (SpC p.3) but it makes it clear the intention is that the light comes from your body, not from a point near it. The "centered on a corner of a square" thing makes it much easier to calculate who's in the area and who isn't because you'd have to count half-squares otherwise, but IMO it should be considered a convention for convenience rather than what's actually happening in cases like this.



Forcewave: The waterdrop swells and becomes a blue-green wave of magical force, tumbling toward your opponents.

By RAW this spell bullrushes you, but again it's clear from the descriptive text that it's not intended to.


Quill Blast: Needle-sharp quills emerge from your skin as you begin casting this spell, then fly outward in every direction when you complete the spell.

Again, by RAW this would affect you, but the descriptive text makes it very obvious that it shouldn't.

(Italics mine in each case).

[Rleonardh]

Fireball on yourself vs burst spells cast by caster.

Raw vs rai

[Khedrac]

Part of the problem is that the rules are (probably) meant to be read as natural English by English speakers so the authors (not considering AW debates) write spells with descriptions like those given above that don't work when analysed closely.

Oddly enough, if you are tryign for a strict RAW reading some of the exceptions are even worse:

Fireburst
Effect: Burst of fire extending 10 ft. from you
Fireburst causes a powerful explosion of flame to burst from you, damaging anyone within 10 feet of you. All creatures and objects within that area, except for you and any creatures or objects that share your space, take 1d8 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d8).
The description does a good job of excluding the caster's square but, together with the Effect entry, makes the spell area a hollow ring, and not one centred on a vertex (except for large and gargantuan casters) thus completely ignoring the PHB rule about burst origins.

Yes one can start talking about "general versus specific" but that falls down the same way - is the fireburst spell more specific or the rules about burst spell areas? One can argue either way.

This is an inherent problem with English as a language. My current job is as a software tester, but I have been a developer in the past and when I actually get specs or requirements for new development (a depressingly rare occurrence) nearly all of them have ambiguities that I have to query, unfortunately they usually come back with the opposite answer to the developer's assumptions which is why it is best to let testers have the spec before development starts. {One product owner has finally said that they are going to have formal requirements for any future work after the last four "simple" new reports that have been written have been bounced by me as not actually meeting the end user's needs, usually before I even need to consult with the end user - hooray!}

I have recently started reading The Wanderign Inn and I came across a brilliant example of English not saying what people think it does:

That night Erin slept well. She did not wake up to hear a strange voice telling her she’d achieved [Tactician Level 1!]. She did not level up that night. Several Antinium and one Goblin however—

Did.The natural English interpretation of the passage is that several Antinium and one Goblin work up to hear a strange voice telling them they'd achieved [Tactician Level 1!] and levelled up.
The strict grammatically correct reading is that they work up to hear the voice telling them that Erin had gained the skill and the level.
No, it's not how I or pretty much any native speaker would read the passage, but it is more "correct" that the correct meaning. (Yes, I intentionally used the word 'correct' twice there to stress the problem.)

So with the English that the rules are written in being inherently ambiguous it does fall on the DM to make judgement calls, and the DM's so doing does not stop the game from being "RAW" no matter how much people that want to make use of a less conventional reading may claim.
So, going back to the O.P. - good question, well put (I hadn't noticed the problem before).

And moving on to Paragon's question about Dread Necromancers - I think the "best" solution is to let the caster choose whether to affect their square or not. What I probably would not allow is them to exclude themselves but include those in their square (as fireburst specifically prevents).

Speaking of fireburst, the only time I have seen it used was by a lich who had it as an SLA which it resorted to when grappled by a centaur PC. Aside from this actually being an iffy call as the lich (medium) is techically occupying all of the centaur (large)'s squares, the look on the GM's face when the centaur turned out to have evasion and took no damage was priceless.

[Rleonardh]

Originally Posted by The Wandering Inn by pirateaba, chapter 1.24
That night Erin slept well. She did not wake up to hear a strange voice telling her she’d achieved [Tactician Level 1!]. She did not level up that night. Several Antinium and one Goblin however—

Did.


She did not level up that night = she did not level. Leaving that in means that 100% she doesn't level.

Leave that out, she leveled, as the antinium and goblin heard she did.

A burst doesn't affect the caster unless it's a positive affect. No caster going to take damage with a spell unless the benefits are worth it.
They take 5d6 you take 1d6 than It may be worth it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The description does a good job of excluding the caster's square but, together with the Effect entry, makes the spell area a hollow ring, and not one centred on a vertex (except for large and gargantuan casters) thus completely ignoring the PHB rule about burst origins.
Firebursts description overrides the area entry. Text trumps table.

Edit: also note that it says "burst of fire within 10ft of you", as in the colloquial usage of "burst", not "10ft burst centered on you" which is how the RAW defines a burst-shaped area.
It's also an "effect" spell, not an "area" spell.

You're basically determining the area like you would the threatened area of a reach weapon, not an area spell.


Yes one can start talking about "general versus specific" but that falls down the same way - is the fireburst spell more specific or the rules about burst spell areas? One can argue either way.
No, one really can't. :smallconfused:

"A burst affects every target in its area that doesn't have total cover" is the rule for all area spells.
"Fireburst affects every target except you and those sharing your space" is the rule only for fireburst.

The general rules on aiming area spells are clearly not more specific than the description of a specific spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly, the Range and Area entries for spells, and the rules behind them, are dysfunctional all over the place. By RAW, any part of a spell's Area that extends beyond its Range is wasted, since a spell's effect can't affect anything outside of its Range. But then we have effects with Range: Personal but a wide Area. I'm sorry, but RAW says that such an effect stops at the outer edges of your body, so the only creatures that can use it are those with the incorporeal subtype, or that have engulf or swallow whole attacks. Nothing outside their bodies are affected, but such spells are assumed to still function, somehow.

Also, what about very large creatures? If a spell has a Range of 10' but the caster takes up a 15' space, how does that work, exactly?

[Rleonardh]

You sure? To me there is a difference in the rules for spells like fireball that does all squares vs burst that leaves out the square the caster is in?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also, what about very large creatures? If a spell has a Range of 10' but the caster takes up a 15' space, how does that work, exactly?

If it's an area spell you pick a grid intersection of your space and it has a 10ft radius around that. You don't get a bigger area just by increasing your size.

If it's fireburst it affects the same area you'd threaten with a 10ft reach.

If it's just range you count from the edge of the space you occupy, same as any other creature.


You sure? To me there is a difference in the rules for spells like fireball that does all squares vs burst that leaves out the square the caster is in?
Fireball is a spread. The only difference between a burst and a spread is that a spread can go around corners. A burst can't. That's it.

[Rleonardh]

Also, what about very large creatures? If a spell has a Range of 10' but the caster takes up a 15' space, how does that work, exactly?


10 feet from caster.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If it's an area spell you pick a grid intersection of your space and it has a 10ft radius around that. You don't get a bigger area just by increasing your size.

If it's fireburst it affects the same area you'd threaten with a 10ft reach.


Fireball is a spread. The only difference between a burst and a spread is that a spread can go around corners. A burst can't. That's it.


10 feet from caster.So larger creatures essentially gain a bonus on the Ranges and Areas of their effects due to having larger spaces to work with.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So larger creatures essentially gain a bonus on the Ranges and Areas of their effects due to having larger spaces to work with.

On range, yes. Kinda. You basically count range from any side of your space, so you get 5ft extra range.
Just as a large creature with 10ft reach threatens an area 6 squares across while a medium creature with 10ft reach only threatens 5 squares across.

Spell areas on the other hand don't benefit from size. A 10ft radius is a 10ft radius no matter if you're medium, large or gargantuan.
It's a 10ft radius originating from a grid intersection if it's cast at long range and it's still a 10ft radius emanating from a grid intersection if it's emanating from you.

[Rleonardh]

Raw = is any dms view
Rai = what many think the makers intended

So in a strange way unless they tell you exactly what they meant it's all homebrew.

I'm never going to punish players or monsters using spells with burst.

Sorry wizard you have 30 hp you used a burst spell for 40 damage. You dead.... Nope sorry same with monsters.

Now be dumb and center a fireball on yourself than yah. Emulate from a point does not hit the caster in my games.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Spell areas on the other hand don't benefit from size. A 10ft radius is a 10ft radius no matter if you're medium, large or gargantuan.
It's a 10ft radius originating from a grid intersection if it's cast at long range and it's still a 10ft radius emanating from a grid intersection if it's emanating from you.You can center an Area on any space within the effect's Range, and while having a larger space doesn't really increase the Area, it DOES give you more Range to use the Area in, which can sometimes work out in ways that increase the number of targets you can catch in the AoE.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can center an Area on any space within the effect's Range, and while having a larger space doesn't really increase the Area, it DOES give you more Range to use the Area in, which can sometimes work out in ways that increase the number of targets you can catch in the AoE.

Yes, that's true.

[Darg]

What about the Dread Necromancer burst ability ?
Because if not undead of Tomb-tainted soul, he damages himself in the process

While it has the word "burst" it's not actually a burst effect. There are several descriptions that use the word burst for dramatic effect but don't actually incorporate the burst area effect rules. The cantrip Flare is an obvious one. If it were an actual burst effect, it could not fulfill the, "harming living creatures within 5 feet of her," part. A 5 ft burst is just a 2x2 square and you have to center it on a corner of your square. This would mean that 5 of 8 squares around you are untouched.