Theorycraft—Intelligence-focused Fighter

[TaiLiu]

In the last few days, I've been thinking about the possibility of a single-class intelligence-focused Fighter. Thoughts? How viable would this idea be? Would love to see this idea improved or critiqued.


Premise & Motivation

The idea is to figure out a viable way to play the smart Fighter archetype. Perhaps a strategist or a former military official of some sort. Someone who noodles things out instead of waiting for the party Wizard to.

The easy way out is just to play a Fighter/Wizard, or just someone with the Soldier background. But I wanna optimize an intelligence-based Fighter. Use Intelligence for much of the basic Fighter combat stuff you'd be responsible for, rather than Strength or Dexterity.

There are also many intelligence-based skills that seem to fit the Fighter well. Military history. Monster weaknesses. You'd eventually roll with your +5 Intelligence bonus, instead of the typical −1 or +0 an average Fighter has.


Necessary Structure

So. How do you make such a Fighter viable and not an armored missing machine? Shillelagh, unfortunately, is a Druid-only spell. But lucky us—Artificers get magic stone. This cantrip's text is as follows:


You touch one to three pebbles [as a bonus action] and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, a pebble has a range of 60 feet... On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone.

To be a viable combatant, you just need to pick up the Artificer Initiate feat. Gets you a first-level spell, too. Something like faerie fire can get you and your fellow party members advantage on attack rolls. It's a spell you normally wouldn't be good at casting even if you had the spell. But you're intelligence-focused, so go for it!

At level 5 and 11, you get Extra Attack and Extra Attack (2), respectively. That means you need to cast magic stone every round, which means your bonus action gets eaten up every round. It also makes Action Surge difficult to use. You'd really need to plan between levels 5–10. And once you hit level 11, Action Surge is no longer a reliable way to obtain a flurry of attacks.

You also lose out on an intelligence-based attack at level 20, when you get four attacks for every Attack action, but only three magic pebbles. But this is a much smaller problem, since so few tables play at this level.

And, uh, that's it! Hopefully your DM will let you refluff things so your military commander-type character won't look like a weirdly smart barbarian throwing rocks at monsters. But you get an intelligent ranged Fighter! Not particularly powerful, but doable. And you'll rock those intelligence ability checks.


Additional Scaffolding

The obvious move is to pick up the Eldritch Knight subclass. The seventh-level War Magic feature is more flexible for you than for other Fighters, which is nice. Eldritch Strike, which you get at level 10, is also really nice. Since you're intelligence-focused, it doesn't just let you keep up with the casters—it's basically the Heighten Spell metamagic.

Pick up some attack cantrips with cool riders. Mind sliver can get you a reliable −1d4 to a foe's saves. Sword burst when you find yourself surrounded. Pick up spells that would've been unreliable if you weren't intelligence-focused. For you, spells like fireball are more powerful, and spells like Tasha's hideous laughter become viable forms of control.


Problems

MADness is unfortunately likely. I'd love to just focus on Intelligence and Constitution. But armor is a problem. You either want some Dexterity for medium armor, or you want some Strength for heavy armor.

One solution is to wear heavy armor and suck up the −10 to speed. Not ideal. The other is to be some kind of Dwarf.


Conclusions

This kind of character is most effective from when they get the Artificer Initiate feat (likely at level 4) to level 10. That's seven levels, and most are in Tier 2, which is by experience points a relatively long period of gameplay. That's not bad!

[Eldariel]

Well, Battlesmith 3 gets to use Int with their weapon so that seems like a gimme.

[Sherlockpwns]

Well, Battlesmith 3 gets to use Int with their weapon so that seems like a gimme.

Or armorer if you use the built in weapons. Seems a heck of a lot easier lol.

[ff7hero]

If you can swing it, 1 level of Artificer and an All Purpise Tool can get you Int Shillaligh.

[Dalinar]

Recently started an adventure with a Psi Warrior rocking only 15 STR but 17 INT. I'll let you know how it goes; for now, seems like a slow starter, but it's one of those parties with a lot of forced movement effects (and at least one source of Spike Growth among other possibilities) and I'm going to get more and more of those as the adventure progresses. Planning on Crusher at 4 to shore up that STR, then Telekinetic at 6, then of course I get Telekinetic Thrust at 7 to stack another potential shove onto my attacks--if the adventure isn't over by then, which I think it's supposed to be, but we tend to scope creep at this table.

If I were to take that character further, I'd probably GWM at 8 (given I now can prone things as a rider on an attack, shouldn't be too hard to get advantage to use with it), then assuming I get a STR-boosting magic item at some point, my priorities would be INT bump, Resilient DEX, Alert, or Lucky in some order. (Note that I probably don't need Resilient WIS since I can just casually end charm/frighten effects on myself starting at 10.)

MAD? I guess, but not more than your average Monk or single-classed Paladin, both of which also have an attack stat that differs from the stat governing their save DCs.

[diplomancer]

Notably, if you use a sling with your Magic Stone, you can take advantage of the last bullet point (the damage one) of Sharpshooter; you'd have to be pretty close to the enemy, but that's not as big a problem for a fighter.

If your DM's generous with spamming cantrips, you could make sure that you start battle with 3 stones; this way you can throw them, cast Magic Stone again, Action Surge, and throw them again, up until level 20.

Focusing on stones, the Crusher feat is also a decent choice, with the advantage that it is the only weapon damage feat that can raise Con, instead of Str or Dex.

[J-H]

Psi Warrior is also INT focused.
You're a fighter...you get a lot of ASIs and can easily have 2 stats at 20 with room to spare if the game goes past level 13.

[TaiLiu]

Well, Battlesmith 3 gets to use Int with their weapon so that seems like a gimme.

Or armorer if you use the built in weapons. Seems a heck of a lot easier lol.

If you can swing it, 1 level of Artificer and an All Purpise Tool can get you Int Shillaligh.
Appreciate these suggestions! Part of the challenge is no multiclassing, but it does seem like just a few levels of Artificer can get a more flexible and effective combatant. Intelligence-based shillelagh in exchange for a level is especially cost-effective—you can be a reasonable melee and ranged combatant.



Recently started an adventure with a Psi Warrior rocking only 15 STR but 17 INT. I'll let you know how it goes; for now, seems like a slow starter, but it's one of those parties with a lot of forced movement effects (and at least one source of Spike Growth among other possibilities) and I'm going to get more and more of those as the adventure progresses. Planning on Crusher at 4 to shore up that STR, then Telekinetic at 6, then of course I get Telekinetic Thrust at 7 to stack another potential shove onto my attacks--if the adventure isn't over by then, which I think it's supposed to be, but we tend to scope creep at this table.

If I were to take that character further, I'd probably GWM at 8 (given I now can prone things as a rider on an attack, shouldn't be too hard to get advantage to use with it), then assuming I get a STR-boosting magic item at some point, my priorities would be INT bump, Resilient DEX, Alert, or Lucky in some order. (Note that I probably don't need Resilient WIS since I can just casually end charm/frighten effects on myself starting at 10.)
Oh, nice! Yeah, definitely keep me updated. Sounds like you rolled well for your stats and have a pretty cool character. What's your character's premise? :smallsmile:

MAD? I guess, but not more than your average Monk or single-classed Paladin, both of which also have an attack stat that differs from the stat governing their save DCs.
True. But they'd probably be more effective if they weren't MAD. (Presumably that's why Hexblade Warlock is such a popular multiclass!)


Notably, if you use a sling with your Magic Stone, you can take advantage of the last bullet point (the damage one) of Sharpshooter; you'd have to be pretty close to the enemy, but that's not as big a problem for a fighter...

Focusing on stones, the Crusher feat is also a decent choice, with the advantage that it is the only weapon damage feat that can raise Con, instead of Str or Dex.
Oh, good points! I haven't really looked into the attack feats, so these are nice ideas. Sharpshooter has a lot of benefits beyond the attack/damage tradeoff, too.

If your DM's generous with spamming cantrips, you could make sure that you start battle with 3 stones; this way you can throw them, cast Magic Stone again, Action Surge, and throw them again, up until level 20.
Nice way to get around the Action Surge limitation! Admittedly, such a tactic limits you—you'd have to be the kind of character that nervously casts a cantrip every minute.



Psi Warrior is also INT focused.
You're a fighter...you get a lot of ASIs and can easily have 2 stats at 20 with room to spare if the game goes past level 13.
Yeah, I didn't think of Psi Warrior before you and Dalinar mentioned it. Also a good option, although only a subset of your psionic abilities use your intelligence modifier.

[animorte]

There is also the Celestial Generalist, fantastic build. Can be found in my sig.

[MrStabby]

I think it worth considering some simple swaps. The DMG for example suggests swapping class spell lists. Swapping the Eldritch Knight's wizard spells for druid spells for example would give Shileighlah and some great support spells whilst losing other great spells like shield. It would seem a fair switch and would let you be much more intelligence focussed as a fighter.

Other things could just be a simple swap with DM permission. Letting the character attack with intelligence (for a non EK/Psi fighter) is probably not going to break anything - you still need strength for heavy armour and dex is probably a better stat overall so I don't see many DMs haveing an issue if you were to pitch it (if you have an artificer or wizard in the party, then maybe not).

The UA version of the rune knight was very solid and was Int based so if you could get agreement to use that it would also set you up.

[TaiLiu]

There is also the Celestial Generalist, fantastic build. Can be found in my sig.
Oh, thank you! It's a Warlock and not a Fighter, but it does look like a cool build.


I think it worth considering some simple swaps. The DMG for example suggests swapping class spell lists. Swapping the Eldritch Knight's wizard spells for druid spells for example would give Shileighlah and some great support spells whilst losing other great spells like shield. It would seem a fair switch and would let you be much more intelligence focussed as a fighter.

Other things could just be a simple swap with DM permission. Letting the character attack with intelligence (for a non EK/Psi fighter) is probably not going to break anything - you still need strength for heavy armour and dex is probably a better stat overall so I don't see many DMs haveing an issue if you were to pitch it (if you have an artificer or wizard in the party, then maybe not).

The UA version of the rune knight was very solid and was Int based so if you could get agreement to use that it would also set you up.
Swaps sound like a good idea, too, assuming that a DM would be willing.

[Skrum]

Why not just like .. play an Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior. Is the goal to specifically use your Int stat to make attack rolls? Battle Master has that one maneuver that can add their superiority die to history checks (and a few other skills, which I don't remember off the top of my head). There's a few ways the class already offers to make use of a good Int score.

Not a fighter but mastermind rogue I think also fits this archetype very well, like a wily veteran that gets by on their cunning.

[Toofey]

Why are we not mixing blade singer into the mix for a few levels? boosts your low level spell/cantrip selection and bladesong is amazing even at lower levels. IMO on it's own it's one of the better melee builds.

[animorte]

I mean, we could just skip all this and make a Factotum. Yum.

[Skrum]

I mean, we could just skip all this and make a Factotum. Yum.

If only. Factotum is one of the coolest classes in 3rd and 5th.

[TaiLiu]

Why not just like .. play an Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior. Is the goal to specifically use your Int stat to make attack rolls? Battle Master has that one maneuver that can add their superiority die to history checks (and a few other skills, which I don't remember off the top of my head). There's a few ways the class already offers to make use of a good Int score.

Not a fighter but mastermind rogue I think also fits this archetype very well, like a wily veteran that gets by on their cunning.
The goal is to rely on Intelligence as much as possible while eschewing Strength or Dexterity as much as possible. That way you can pump your spell attacks and DCs (and intelligence checks) as high as possible while not losing out on the basic Attack sequence that Fighters are good at. A "normal" EK or PW is either spread more thin or is less able to use spells or abilities that rely on Intelligence.

I like the Rogue (Mastermind) idea, too. But I'm not sure that they get sneak attack with magic stone. I could be wrong.



Why are we not mixing blade singer into the mix for a few levels? boosts your low level spell/cantrip selection and bladesong is amazing even at lower levels. IMO on it's own it's one of the better melee builds.
Part of the challenge here is to create a single-class Fighter that relies mostly on Intelligence. There are a lot of multiclasses that would make it more effective, yours included. More spells is always nice, since EKs have so few, and since EKs are mostly restricted to abjuration and evocation.



I mean, we could just skip all this and make a Factotum. Yum.

If only. Factotum is one of the coolest classes in 3rd and 5th.
Is the Factotum a class in D&D 5e now? I wasn't aware.

[diplomancer]

I like the Rogue (Mastermind) idea, too. But I'm not sure that they get sneak attack with magic stone. I could be wrong.

Yes, if they use a sling to throw them. Sneak Attack requires an attack (not a weapon attack) with a Finesse or Ranged weapon; you're making an attack with a sling, a Ranged weapon.

[TaiLiu]

Yes, if they use a sling to throw them. Sneak Attack requires an attack (not a weapon attack) with a Finesse or Ranged weapon; you're making an attack with a sling, a Ranged weapon.
Gotcha. That's really nice. I wonder how an intelligence-focused Arcane Trickster might look like.

[Silpharon]

I don't think there's a good way to make an intelligence based SAD fighter without multicasting or a provided rare magic item. Your magic stone trick will surely get old, especially as you level up and gain bonus actions and more attacks.

I think your best bet is to take 1 level in artificer and find an All-Purpose Tool for Shillelagh, or take 2 levels and grab a Homunculus Servant, Repeating Weapon, and/or Find Familiar Spellwrought Tattoo, or take 3 levels to grab a subclass like Battlesmith, ... or take 5 levels for extra attack, then forget fighter entirely and go rogue.

Another option is to go your Int fighter route and look for a Belt of Hill Giant Strength so you don't have to spend points in strength. But good luck convincing your DM to get you this early!

[claypigeons]

You could do a dex based EK with a focus on intelligence. Dex>int>con then dump everything else.

A solid dex keeps up with AC, especially as you'll likely have a shield. Use a rapier and pick up War Magic. Use your action to cast a Blade cantrip and your damage won't even suffer.

You could also just use a bow and give up the extra attack. You'd probably want sharp shooter to keep from falling too far behind on damage. A ranged attacker can let their CON suffer slightly more to eek out a little more dex/int.

[Rukelnikov]

IMO playing an Int based Fighter isn't about "how to get to do the same as every other fighter but using Int".

Roy is a great example of a smart fighter, I wouldn't say he's Int based, but it's one of his traits, and actually proving fighters don't need to be stupid is one of his character motivations (he does a good job IMO).

With all that, I'd probably go Battlemaster, take commander's strike, bait and switch, and the history one (since you said you liked that). Also carry a ton of nets, a ton.

By lvl 3, basically give your attack to someone else as much as you can, by lvl 5 you can use your nets, and give your other attack to someone else. Nets forbid you from doing more than one attack, you wouldn't be doing more than one ;)

Take feats that either enable you to do stuff outside of combat, or that improve the net tactic.

[TaiLiu]

I don't think there's a good way to make an intelligence based SAD fighter without multicasting or a provided rare magic item. Your magic stone trick will surely get old, especially as you level up and gain bonus actions and more attacks.
I don't disagree. This intelligence-based Fighter is most usable within a certain level range.

With that said, I don't think there are too many bonus actions to worry about. Base Fighter has Second Wind. EK has Weapon Bond, War Magic, and Improved War Magic.


I think your best bet is to take 1 level in artificer and find an All-Purpose Tool for Shillelagh, or take 2 levels and grab a Homunculus Servant, Repeating Weapon, and/or Find Familiar Spellwrought Tattoo, or take 3 levels to grab a subclass like Battlesmith, ... or take 5 levels for extra attack, then forget fighter entirely and go rogue.
Yeah, those are all good possible multiclasses.


Another option is to go your Int fighter route and look for a Belt of Hill Giant Strength so you don't have to spend points in strength. But good luck convincing your DM to get you this early!
The Bracers of Ogre Strength are uncommon, actually, so it's not unreasonable to get them relatively early on. I kinda dislike how Strength is so cheap in D&D 5e, though. All these magical Strength-boosting items compared to other stats.



You could do a dex based EK with a focus on intelligence. Dex>int>con then dump everything else.

A solid dex keeps up with AC, especially as you'll likely have a shield. Use a rapier and pick up War Magic. Use your action to cast a Blade cantrip and your damage won't even suffer.

You could also just use a bow and give up the extra attack. You'd probably want sharp shooter to keep from falling too far behind on damage. A ranged attacker can let their CON suffer slightly more to eek out a little more dex/int.
That's a good idea, too. A more standard and solid build. You won't be as good as casting spells as an intelligence-focused Fighter, though, since you're splitting up your stats.



IMO playing an Int based Fighter isn't about "how to get to do the same as every other fighter but using Int".

Roy is a great example of a smart fighter, I wouldn't say he's Int based, but it's one of his traits, and actually proving fighters don't need to be stupid is one of his character motivations (he does a good job IMO).

With all that, I'd probably go Battlemaster, take commander's strike, bait and switch, and the history one (since you said you liked that). Also carry a ton of nets, a ton.

By lvl 3, basically give your attack to someone else as much as you can, by lvl 5 you can use your nets, and give your other attack to someone else. Nets forbid you from doing more than one attack, you wouldn't be doing more than one ;)

Take feats that either enable you to do stuff outside of combat, or that improve the net tactic.
The net build is fun! I had a net-focused Barbarian before. It was nice cuz I could bypass the auto-disadvantage that nets come with.

I think what you're proposing is a tactical Fighter, which I think is cool. But I kinda wanna use Intelligence mechanically. More than just for ability checks, anyway.

[claypigeons]

You could still end up with an 18 or 20 in intelligence. Fighters get 2 bonus ASI over their lifetime, so maxing 2 ability scores definitely possible under point buy or standard array.

[TaiLiu]

You could still end up with an 18 or 20 in intelligence. Fighters get 2 bonus ASI over their lifetime, so maxing 2 ability scores definitely possible under point buy or standard array.
Yeah, but that's from level 1 to 20, right? In Tiers 1 and 2, they get three. That's one more than most. But you couldn't pump both Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence. And you might also want a feat.

[claypigeons]

Yeah, but that's from level 1 to 20, right? In Tiers 1 and 2, they get three. That's one more than most. But you couldn't pump both Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence. And you might also want a feat.

You don't need 20 in an ability score to do just fine in tiers 1 and 2. You can start off with a 16 in dex and int and be just fine. A build/character isn't ruined just because they don't hit 20 in a particular score.

If you're focusing on an ability score that isn't normally used for a particular class, you will have to sacrifice the more optimal scores. Unless you roll for ability scores

[Frogreaver]

One might could do something cool with Grapple + Create Bonfire + Forced Movement.

Turn 1: You grapple the enemy
Turn 2: By my reading you can cast it under an enemy and they must succeed on a dex save or take 1d8 - then you move the enemy off the bonfire square and back onto it. Since it entered the bonfire's space for the first time on a turn then it takes another d8. On it's turn it fails to break the grapple and takes another d8. Total 3d8 Damage (grows to 6d8, 9d8, 12d8 when cantrips progress)
Turn 3: Drag the enemy off and back onto this bonfire it takes 1d8 damage - recast bonefire it takes another 1d8 damage - since this is a new bonfire drag the enemy off the bonfire and back onto it again it takes another d8 damage. Finally when it ends it's turn on the bonfire it takes another d8. Total 4d8 Damage (8d8, 12d8, 16d8)

Can repeat turn 3 as needed.

At level 4 take the expertise feat for expertise athletics and you should have a really solid tactic.

[TaiLiu]

You don't need 20 in an ability score to do just fine in tiers 1 and 2. You can start off with a 16 in dex and int and be just fine. A build/character isn't ruined just because they don't hit 20 in a particular score.
Yes, I agree. I don't think I said that characters need a 20 in an ability score, though.


If you're focusing on an ability score that isn't normally used for a particular class, you will have to sacrifice the more optimal scores. Unless you roll for ability scores
Right. I agree here, too. Part of the theorycrafting here is trying to square the circle—minimizing the sacrifice you have to make while focusing on intelligence.



One might could do something cool with Grapple + Create Bonfire + Forced Movement.
That's a good tactic. I think it probably works better for Fighters who aren't focusing on Intelligence, though, since you need to maintain the grapple and everything. Grabbing expertise will help a lot.

[Kane0]

EK or Psi Knight + Artificer or Magic Initiate for Int cantrips, consider asking your DM if you can use your fighting style to add +Int to cantrip damage rolls.

Also consider the Skill Expert and Ritual Caster feats, plus the usual suspects like Resilient and Fey Touched

[Frogreaver]

Yes, I agree. I don't think I said that characters need a 20 in an ability score, though.


Right. I agree here, too. Part of the theorycrafting here is trying to square the circle—minimizing the sacrifice you have to make while focusing on intelligence.



That's a good tactic. I think it probably works better for Fighters who aren't focusing on Intelligence, though, since you need to maintain the grapple and everything. Grabbing expertise will help a lot.

You can start with 16 str and 16 int. Missing out on The +2 to grapple checks from not maxing str isn’t the end of the world.

[TaiLiu]

EK or Psi Knight + Artificer or Magic Initiate for Int cantrips, consider asking your DM if you can use your fighting style to add +Int to cantrip damage rolls.
That would be a really nice fighting style. Might be too potent, though.


Also consider the Skill Expert and Ritual Caster feats, plus the usual suspects like Resilient and Fey Touched
Thanks! Fey Touched and the like are especially good.



You can start with 16 str and 16 int. Missing out on The +2 to grapple checks from not maxing str isn’t the end of the world.
Yeah, you're right. But at level 4 and onward, you gotta make a choice about whether to bump Strength or Intelligence (or neither). You'll be a little less effective in some domain. The goal here is to try and get the bumps in spellcasting and Attack together. It's mostly theorycrafting.

[Frogreaver]

Yeah, you're right. But at level 4 and onward, you gotta make a choice about whether to bump Strength or Intelligence (or neither). You'll be a little less effective in some domain. The goal here is to try and get the bumps in spellcasting and Attack together. It's mostly theorycrafting.

Then theory craft is over as there's no way to do that without multiclassing or magic items.

[TaiLiu]

Then theory craft is over as there's no way to do that without multiclassing or magic items.
I don't wanna be difficult, but I'm kinda confused. I, uh, suggested a limited way of doing that in the first post of this thread.

You're right, though. From everyone's responses, I'm getting the sense that theorycraft is indeed over. Magic stone is the best an intelligence-focused single-class Fighter can. :smallsmile:

[Kane0]

That would be a really nice fighting style. Might be too potent, though.


Nah not really, compare with Dueling

[Rukelnikov]

I don't wanna be difficult, but I'm kinda confused. I, uh, suggested a limited way of doing that in the first post of this thread.

You're right, though. From everyone's responses, I'm getting the sense that theorycraft is indeed over. Magic stone is the best an intelligence-focused single-class Fighter can. :smallsmile:

Definitely not, even an Int focused will do better with a starting 16 Dex and Sharpshooter instead of Magic Stone.

You are mixing Int focused with "using Int as the attack attribute"

[Frogreaver]

Definitely not, even an Int focused will do better with a starting 16 Dex and Sharpshooter instead of Magic Stone.

You are mixing Int focused with "using Int as the attack attribute"

I mean I even proposed a solution that would use an Int based cantrip for attacking along with grappling and it got shot down because it used strength for part of the combo.

I think you are right, what the OP really meant was using int to make attack actions. This is why out of all the suggestions that magic stone is the only one he approves of as answering his question. But that's the only way to get int to attack and damage without multiclassing or magic items.

[TaiLiu]

Nah not really, compare with Dueling
Oh, maybe, yeah. I just think getting an ability that other subclasses get later leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



Definitely not, even an Int focused will do better with a starting 16 Dex and Sharpshooter instead of Magic Stone.

You are mixing Int focused with "using Int as the attack attribute"
Sure, I'm willing to concede both those points. Maybe intelligence-dependent would've been a more accurate way of explaining what I'm trying to theorycraft. Or perhaps a Fighter that doesn't rely on Strength or Dexterity.

I think there's conceptual space for a Fighter that is specialized in other aspects of fighting besides something strength- or dexterity-based. But the mechanical space is pretty limited.



I mean I even proposed a solution that would use an Int based cantrip for attacking along with grappling and it got shot down because it used strength for part of the combo.

I think you are right, what the OP really meant was using int to make attack actions. This is why out of all the suggestions that magic stone is the only one he approves of as answering his question. But that's the only way to get int to attack and damage without multiclassing or magic items.
If it helps, I didn't mean to shoot it down. It's certainly a very smart way to be a one-person tactics machine. It just didn't fit what I was looking for.

(Also, friendly note that I'm not a "he." :smallsmile:)

[Rukelnikov]

Sure, I'm willing to concede both those points. Maybe intelligence-dependent would've been a more accurate way of explaining what I'm trying to theorycraft. Or perhaps a Fighter that doesn't rely on Strength or Dexterity.

I think there's conceptual space for a Fighter that is specialized in other aspects of fighting besides something strength- or dexterity-based. But the mechanical space is pretty limited.

Well, if the only mechanical thing you are interested in is using Int to do weapon-like attack rolls, then there are only 3 things I can think of, Battlesmith, Armorer and Magic Stone, you don't wanna have to MC, so Magic stone becomes the best and worst possible option, since its the only option.

Take Archery Style, it apllies to attacks with ranged weapons, slings are ranged weapons.

Sharpshooter's -5/+10 works since it requires an attack with a ranged weapon, a sling is a ranged weapon, so we are good. The other 2 points don't work though, since they require ranged weapon attacks, and we are doing ranged spell attacks.

Max Int before taking SS though, the increase in accuracy will likely be more useful since we don't benefit from the distance and cover benefits.

Rune Knight and Psi Warrior are the only subs that directly improve our damage. Which one will deal more damage will depend on the level in question and lenght of the battle, Psi Warrior will be far easie to use though.

EK becomes useful by T3 in long fights due to Spirit Shroud (the closer to 11 rounds the better it gets)

[TaiLiu]

Well, if the only mechanical thing you are interested in is using Int to do weapon-like attack rolls, then there are only 3 things I can think of, Battlesmith, Armorer and Magic Stone, you don't wanna have to MC, so Magic stone becomes the best and worst possible option, since its the only option.

Take Archery Style, it apllies to attacks with ranged weapons, slings are ranged weapons.

Sharpshooter's -5/+10 works since it requires an attack with a ranged weapon, a sling is a ranged weapon, so we are good. The other 2 points don't work though, since they require ranged weapon attacks, and we are doing ranged spell attacks.

Max Int before taking SS though, the increase in accuracy will likely be more useful since we don't benefit from the distance and cover benefits.

Rune Knight and Psi Warrior are the only subs that directly improve our damage. Which one will deal more damage will depend on the level in question and lenght of the battle, Psi Warrior will be far easie to use though.

EK becomes useful by T3 in long fights due to Spirit Shroud (the closer to 11 rounds the better it gets)
Thanks for these optimization tips! Yeah, magic stone isn't a fantastic choice, but it looks like it's the only one if I don't wanna multiclass.

[Anymage]

Fighter whose attacks run off of Int would require a focus on gamist constructs over ones that make in world sense. By world logic an Int based attack would be a magical one, and since cantrips fit most of that role the fighter side of the equation brings little.

What would be a nice thing is something akin to the 4e warlord (who used Str to hit things, but then Int or Cha on his riders to have some impact after the hit lands), or Roy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) who can use an Int skill to gain a tactical advantage that lets him win over someone with a higher Str score. A fighter type who can leverage Int for secondary effects without those being necessarily magical would be nice. Even if he did also use Str or Dex for his primary purpose.

[Rukelnikov]

Thanks for these optimization tips! Yeah, magic stone isn't a fantastic choice, but it looks like it's the only one if I don't wanna multiclass.

Welcome, and yeah, for your pourpose its the only one I can think of.

[Lavaeolus]

Gotcha. That's really nice. I wonder how an intelligence-focused Arcane Trickster might look like.

I realise this isn't an Int Fighter, but I'm willing to poke at this some more. The first thing I'd notice on a magic stone Rogue is that they're limited to light armour. In the long run they'd probably still like 20 Dexterity, since their AC depends on it. Suddenly we're back to being a regular Rogue! Fortunately for us, sources of medium armour are quite common. Unfortunately, sticking to single-class does limit us. Let's go over our options:


Multiclass. The simplest and easiest route. There are plenty of medium-armor classes, but Artificer is the obvious call as it nets us both armour and magic stone. An otherwise non-magical alternative might be Fighter. This gets us medium/heavy armour and the Archery fighting style. (Archery luckily only asks that you attack with a ranged weapon: our sling.) If we start with VHuman and grab Artificer Initiate, we can still have both medium armour and magic stone from the get-go.


Armoured races. Mountain dwarf and the pre-Multiverse githyanki give us two options, and I'll note for fixed-ASIs games that original githyanki get +1 Intelligence. The downside is that you won't get magic stone until level 4. It's not the end of the world: it just means you're pretty much a regular Rogue for now, albeit one in heavier armour. But I'd like to get magic stone online early on.


Moderately Armored. Rogues start with light armour making this an easy grab. The only problem is that you also need Artificer Initiate for magic stone. I'd rule this out for most races, then: I'm not spending both my first two ASIs just to get my build working. But VHuman can grab one of those feats for free. While it means sacrificing your early-game AC, it means you can start with magic stone. Remember that Moderately Armored is a half-feat.

Where do we go from there? The usual feats we'd take on a ranged character aren't as useful. Sharpshooter lets characters ignore long-range disadvantage and most cover... when attacking with ranged weapon attacks. We don't do that! We use ranged spell attacks! We can benefit from the third bullet (-5 to attack roll / +10 to damage), however. What does let us get past cover is the Spell Sniper feat, although its other benefit is a little more iffy. The close-range benefits of Crossbow Expert work, but obviously none of the buffs to crossbows are relevant. Elven Accuracy remains useful, but this isn't a build that lends itself to elves or half-elves without multiclassing.

I've painted a somewhat miserable picture there, and obviously this isn't the optimal way to take Rogue. Dex does more for you in combat than Int, and you're sacrificing options for not much in return. In the case of Arcane Trickster your spell save is higher -- but you're a third-caster who'll never get beyond 4th-level spells, so you were likely more inclined towards using your spells for support in the first place. Still, your illusions and disguise-selfs won't fall apart as easily, and you can throw out a few hypnotic patterns at the higher levels. And while magic-stone reliance hurts your bonus action economy, you are still a Rogue, capable of most a Rogue can do.

So let's take all that and throw something together quick, for what they might look like at level 12. This isn't meant to be too optimised, but hopefully it should be good enough at its job as a simple "high-Int Rogue".

Hilda

Hilda Pebblefondler was a minor noble of a dwarven empire, possessed with a keen interest in both history and arcana. When war broke out, however, noblesse oblige demanded she join the front as an officer -- halting her studies and taking her down a path she hadn't expected.

Class: Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 12
Race: Mountain Dwarf
Starting stats: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12
Background: Noble

HP: 87
AC: 18 (Half-Plate)

Skills: Persuasion, History, Perception, Insight, Stealth, Investigation (Expertise in italics)
Tool proficiencies: Calligrapher's Supplies, Cartographer's Tools, Dragonchess Kit, Thieves' Tools

Feat/ASI progression: Artificer Initiate -> +2 Int -> +2 Int -> Medium Armor Master

Cantrips: Magic Stone, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Mending
1st level: Cure Wounds (Artificer Initiate), Find Familiar, Disguise Self, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Silvery Barbs
2nd level: Misty Step, Invisibility, Blur

Later spells could include Fly and Hypnotic Pattern. While our Wisdom and Charisma scores aren't as high as you might like for a commander, Expertise helps cover our gaps; we roll Perception and Insight at +8, for example, and Reliable Talent makes it impossible for us to roll below a 10 on them. Although not your standard full-Dex Rogue, we can still Stealth about decently if required. You can easily shuffle some of those proficiencies around, e.g. customise your background and ultimately swap out Investigation for Arcana.

Medium Armor Master isn't particularly needed, so if wanted you can shuffle that Dexterity racial boost back into Constitution. If so, there are plenty of other generally useful feats. Alert's always nice, Ritual Caster could be interesting and carrying around a ritual book might help you feel particularly scholarly on your high-Int character, etc.

[TaiLiu]

Fighter whose attacks run off of Int would require a focus on gamist constructs over ones that make in world sense. By world logic an Int based attack would be a magical one, and since cantrips fit most of that role the fighter side of the equation brings little.
I don't know what you mean by "gamist," but I don't think getting +intelligence to your attack and damage rolls fails to make in-world sense. The D&D 5e engine is not a model of the world. And there are a lot of ways to make sense of it—e.g. using your knowledge to target weaknesses.


What would be a nice thing is something akin to the 4e warlord (who used Str to hit things, but then Int or Cha on his riders to have some impact after the hit lands), or Roy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) who can use an Int skill to gain a tactical advantage that lets him win over someone with a higher Str score. A fighter type who can leverage Int for secondary effects without those being necessarily magical would be nice. Even if he did also use Str or Dex for his primary purpose.
I agree. I wish the Battlemaster had some maneuvers that relied on intelligence, besides the one that boosts skill checks.



Welcome, and yeah, for your pourpose its the only one I can think of.
:smallsmile:



I realise this isn't an Int Fighter, but I'm willing to poke at this some more. The first thing I'd notice on a magic stone Rogue is that they're limited to light armour. In the long run they'd probably still like 20 Dexterity, since their AC depends on it. Suddenly we're back to being a regular Rogue! Fortunately for us, sources of medium armour are quite common. Unfortunately, sticking to single-class does limit us. Let's go over our options:
This is really good! Something I'm noticing is that only a few of the enchantment and illusion spells you get seriously rely on your spell DC. (For level one: charm person and hideous laughter.) That's pretty different than abjuration and especially evocation, which rely on it a lot. So, broadly speaking, ATs rely on intelligence less than EKs, which is surprising.

[Lavaeolus]

On reflection, the tortle might be of interest here. Now, Tortle's main gimmick is Natural Armor: they have a fixed base AC of 17, unaffected by Dexterity, but cannot wear armour at all (though they can use shields).

Dex 14 isn't a big ask, but this does theoretically give the Rogue the option of dumping Strength/Dexterity entirely. Fighters too, although they could've also done that with a heavy armor dwarf. To be clear, it'd mean a hard waddle through the early levels unless you were starting at level 4+. Who doesn't love having a -1 to their attack stat? And I don't think those points would really translate into much of an increase in Int or Con, either at the start or down the line.

Still, run with it and presumably those points would go into our other mental stats, which might open up some extra options. Given the theme, it could be cool to integrate a feat like Inspiring Leader, something more viable if we can get our Charisma up. I should warn, if you do go this extra mile make sure you're not reliant on a decent Stealth score to trigger Sneak Attack / advantage. Less of a concern if you know Steady Aim from Tasha's is in play.

[TaiLiu]

On reflection, the tortle might be of interest here. Now, Tortle's main gimmick is Natural Armor: they have a fixed base AC of 17, unaffected by Dexterity, but cannot wear armour at all (though they can use shields).

Dex 14 isn't a big ask, but this does theoretically give the Rogue the option of dumping Strength/Dexterity entirely. Fighters too, although they could've also done that with a heavy armor dwarf. To be clear, it'd mean a hard waddle through the early levels unless you were starting at level 4+. Who doesn't love having a -1 to their attack stat? And I don't think those points would really translate into much of an increase in Int or Con, either at the start or down the line.

Still, run with it and presumably those points would go into our other mental stats, which might open up some extra options. Given the theme, it could be cool to integrate a feat like Inspiring Leader, something more viable if we can get our Charisma up. I should warn, if you do go this extra mile make sure you're not reliant on a decent Stealth score to trigger Sneak Attack / advantage. Less of a concern if you know Steady Aim from Tasha's is in play.
The tortle! Absolutely did not think about that. That solves the AC problem for the Fighter, too. The fact that your dexterity is so low also means that your initiative is low. That means it's less likely that you'll go before a party member is adjacent to a foe, which means you have an easier time triggering sneak attack,