But what if....2 archetypes?

[Boci]

So what if you could make a character with 2 archetypes (same class obviously)?

Why does your character have 2 archetypes? Good question, the answer can depend. This is more of an open ended question, but to give some potential answers, maybe the PC is just that good, for sorcerers perhaps they have duel bloodline ancestry that finally manifest in full bloom. Perhaps their is an inherit duality to the character, two souls one body, or maybe the party has a magical item that allows them to do it, an artefact timepiece or something. Details details.


Now, mechanics. I see 3 options for how this could work:

Option 1: Two archetypes, constantly.

Option 2: Two archetypes, but one one is every active. Switching between the two takes 1 minute, so not viable mid-combat, but otherwise you pretty much have free versatility to use without one best fits the situation.

Option 3: Two archetypes, you choose with one to use at the end of each long rest you take.

So, any preference for which option? What character would you play with this. I'd play a sorcerer, aberrant mind / shadow, or maybe just fire and shadow . Perhaps a warlock with pact of fey and, hmmm, either fathomless or celestial, depends. I don't mind which option, I'd be okay with any. What about you?

Also, any potential issues? Do some classes get more out of their archetype than others? Any specific problem applications? Any issue with being able to change archetype, but not abilities scores, proficiency and class features, like eldritch invocations for a warlock? Or their spells known and patron spells come to think of it, but seems easily solvable.

[meandean]

Peace/Twilight Cleric to make the DM ragequit

[Skrum]

I aesthetically hate 2, and dislike 3. Especially for martials; "sorry, can't do that move now. I mentally swapped it for this other move."

So for 1... Well obviously this would be a pretty significant upgrade. Tempted to say this is a decent hack "fix" for underpowered, under-resourced classes (monk, rogue, barbarian)

[animorte]

To directly answer the thread, my favorite ideas to run:
- Divine Soul/Shadow Sorcerer
- Echo/Eldritch Knight Fighter
- Genie/Undead Warlock
- Mercy/Shadow Monk
- Stars/Dreams Druid

I've been working on a spreadsheet for some time that shows the parallels of each subclass (organized separately for each base class). I'll post it in GitP whenever I get it done.

It will allow a person who chooses to play a Cleric pick War spell list, Light feature at 1, Life feature at 2, Twilight feature at 6, and so on. I use this precise example because my brother is running this exact set-up with his Cleric in a few adventures I have run. It's his favorite character for years now.

Where this can become a problem is if you want to choose Peace at 6, it requires you to have the Peace at 1 features. Similar to Hexblade's level 10 and 14 features requiring you to have Hexblade's Curse from level 1. Some class features build upon each other in such a way that you would have to plan for that.

[MrStabby]

Rangers seem to have some strong early level abilities. Level 5 gloomstalker/swarmkeeper might be tough to handle.

Likewise rune knight/echo knight might give some headaches.

At later levels you are dealing with powerful wizards and druids that set the curve and these kind of tend to really a bit less on archetype abilities at these levels (though shepherd druids archetype remains strong).

Hexblade backed up by fiend pact warlock will be a tough combatant.

Clerics... well peace/twilight is the obvious one. Arcana and nature would be a very solid melee presence. I think as written the divine strike abilities would stack so some powerful hits coming in.

[Amnestic]

So of the options presented, I prefer the first one. Option B makes me want to start dipping in and out of each archetype to get the most out of SR/LR resources which feels...weird and a bit powergamey. Despite being objectively 'more powerful', Option A feels like less book-keeping, even if it actually isn't.

Option C letting you swap on a long rest isn't a power multiplier it just lets you vary up a bit when you get bored, so I'm not very interested in that.

As for what I'd play?

I kinda like a Bladesinger/War Wizard for ultimate tanky-wizard.
A celestial+fiendlock would be great for the classic angel+devil fighting over someone's soul.
Battlemaster+Rune Knight would have a lot of little bells/whistles to pull on a regular basis.
Moon+Shepherd druid to be the ultimate beastmode.

Comboing Artillerist and Armourer would let you combo Arcane Firearm with Magic Missile, allowing you to do a mini-nuclear wizard build (1d4+1d8+1 per missile). Not really 'broken' necessarily if multiclassing is off the table but something to be mildly aware of.

I kinda like the vibes of a Forge + Light cleric. Surprisingly their domain spells only have one crossover (Wall of Fire) and otherwise it's just a solid fiery-combo cleric.

[Phhase]

Bear Totem + Zealot Barbarian. Actually immortal.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly I'd be more interested in adding a second archetype from a different class as a kind of pseudo-gestalt. You'd have to accept that it doesn't improve everybody equally, and restrict it to classes with similar subclass-based power boosts, but I'd think it would be fun.

As to more on-topic suggestions, probably something like a Samurai/Psi-Warrior or Samurai/Runs Knight Fighter, a Grave/Life Cleric (because it fits the way I'd play a Grave Cleric anyway), and a Vengeance/Glory or Conquest/Glory Paladin.

[Leon]

Option Two but switch on a short rest, your refocusing your skill set and it should take more than a minute

[NaughtyTiger]

Option 4:
multi-archetype levels just like multiclassing

Bob is a Level 3 Bard - Lore, Level 3 Wizard - War Mage
Jane is a Level 3 Fighter - Champion, Level 3 Fighter - Echo Knight

Jane gets 2 action surges, but won't get 2nd attack until level she levels one of the archetypes to level 5, so 8th or 9th level overalll

[Zaile]

I'm sure there are some combos that would break the game, but I don't dislike it.

Maybe have the second archetype features come online at later levels?

Fighter for example:
Arch 1 - 3, 7, 10, 15
Arch 2 - 6, 9, 13, 18

[Dork_Forge]

Some classes absolutely get more out of their subclass than others, this is only a problem if you aren't ready for a powerful party I don't think there's any game-breaking combos with this particular thing.

I'd prefer both at the same time, personally.

[animorte]

I don't see anything wrong with having both at the same time. It would balance out because you would still only have one Channel Divinity usage. You would just have more options of which one might suit your purposes this time. All Clerics already have the choice to use it as Turn Undead or their subclass, it's very similar. There are still limits to how many times you can use certain features, doesn't matter what class.

[Kane0]

Option 1 is like a diet gestalt, that's cool. You could do some really neat combos, in terms of both flavor and power.

Battle Armorer Artificer
Whisper Sword Bard
Drunken Mercy Monk
Fey Hunter Ranger
Life and Death Cleric
Arcane Battlemaster Fighter
Beast Totem Barbarian

[Angelalex242]

I'd wanna do a Devotion (my actual playstyle)/Ancients (my preferred crunch) Paladin.

[Silly Name]

Well, I'd be able to fulfill my dream of all Fighters being Battlemasters as the default, and their actual subclass building on that! :smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

Way of the Open Hand and Way of Mercy Monk would be an interesting combo. You can really get a lot of of your flurry of blows attacks.

[Segev]

Maybe as a feat?

Choose a subclass for a class you have already chosen subclass in. You may gain the subclass features granted at any single level you have attained in the appropriate class. You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a subclass and level whose features you do not yet have for a level in the parent class you have attained.

Comments: This may be too much, but it only lets you "skip" lower-level features in a class you already have more levels in. So a level 8 diviner wizard could pick up Malleable Illusions or Undead Thralls as a feat. A Bladesinger of level eight or even four could pick up the Abjurer's Ward. Any level eight or higher barbarian could pick up the Eagle Totem's extended sight, and level four or higher could pick up the Zealot's radiant damage and no-material resurrection.

An Eldritch Knight could pick up a Champion's improved critical range.

So, again, may be a bit much, but it is at least costing a feat, which is a rare resource.

[Bobthewizard]

I would keep it simple and let them use both at the same time. It's just a variation on gestalt. While some classes benefit more than others in this system, if you let the players know the rule at character creation, they can decide what to do with it.

I think it would be fun and just enough different from baseline to make it interesting. #2 and #3 would be too complicated for me to enjoy.

You might want to limit multiclassing, either ban it or say you only get the double subclass on your first class. Otherwise, I think double subclasses would make multiclassing so appealing that you wouldn't see any straight classes. I'd also start at least at level 3, so the classes that get their subclass early don't have even more advantage over those that get them at level 3.

[Damon_Tor]

If I had a player that was interested, I don't see a reason why "multi-subclassing" would break the game more than what we already get from multiclassing. Rules would be:

1. When you get your second subclass feature (at 9th level for a rogue, for example) you can INSTEAD select the first feature of a different subclass. (So instead of a thief with Fast Hands, Second Story Work and Supreme Sneak, you might be a thief/assassin with Fast Hands, Second Story Work, Bonus Proficiencies, and Assassinate.)

2. If you have two subclasses, when you would get your third subclass feature, you can take the second subclass feature from either of your two subclasses (but not both) OR select a third subclass, taking just the first subclass feature of that subclass. It works the same way for each subclass you'd like to take

3. You can't use this system to "skip" a subclass feature. For example, you can't take the first features of subclasses A and B, and then take the third subclass feature of subclass A: you would have to take the second subclass feature of subclass A before you took the third.

4. Subclasses that grant the "spellcasting" feature to a class that doesn't already have it (Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster) cease their spell slot and spells known progression if you select a feature from a different subclass. They resume their progression when you select another feature from the spellcasting subclass. The progression of these subclasses begins at "3rd level" regardless of what your class level is when you first select your subclass. For example, a Thief Rogue who selects Arcane Trickster as a second subclass at 9th level would gain only the spell slots and spells known that he would have gained had he taken the subclass at 3rd level. His spell slots and spells known would progress normally with each rogue level gained, until at 13th level he decides to take the second feature of his Thief subclass instead. At this point his spell progression freezes until 17th level when he selects the second Arcane Trickster feature, and his spellcasting progression resumes.

[LtPowers]

Also, any potential issues? Do some classes get more out of their archetype than others?

Yes, and this is the biggest problem with your idea. Bards, Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Paladins tend to get less out of their subclasses than, say, Druids, Rangers, and Monks.


Powers &8^]

[Angelalex242]

Oh, I dunno.

The Devotion/Ancients I listed above gets:

2 Turnings, one which works on undead, one which works on fey, and he can use either of them on fiends.
Sacred Weapon, for that to hit bonus.
The entangle ability he'll probably never use...

At level 7, magic resistance(!!) and charm immunity (more useful for your 8 wis barbarian friend than you, but...)

At level 15, Immortality/not quite dead yet (Stay 1 HP when KOed), and Permanent Pro Evil (!!). Pro evil may not work against everything a Paladin fights, but it makes him a happy camper against anything it works against.

At level 20, you now have 2 capstones you can pop. Use one for the most annoying miniboss, save the other for the big boss!

There's also all the spells known, if you're even using spells that way.

[greenstone]

So what if you could make a character with 2 archetypes (same class obviously)?

Have you tried any classless RPG systems? They may suit better than D&D.

[ragnorack1]

As others said if you treat it as a "mini-gestalt" build and are expecting to have to tune combats a bit it's not going to ruin the game. Some classes definitely get more from their archetype than others such as wizard/sorcerer vs rogue(minus a couple of exceptions) or monk.

Ignoring the obvious mechanical benefits I think true gestalt is more interesting in allowing more thematic choices to a build, but regardless this still offer some interesting builds.

Open Hand/Drunken master- Not particularly powerful but a true Jackie Chan style controller with both increased mobility and various riders coming from your flurry of blows. level 17 could be fun fighting hordes by tripping and shoving substantial numbers of foes.

Bladesinger/War wizard- be even more "gishy" by encouraging you to melee through arcane deflection plus with blade singing and durable magic you dont have to owrry abiut dropping concentration on haste.

Totem/Beast Barbarian- Even more Primal barbarian,the obvious improvement to durability but the commune with nasture and similar "spells" totem offers fit nicely with beast barbarian.

Thief/scout rogue- Super mobile and at level 17 you can unleash a lot of sneak attacks first round.

Champion/Battle master fighter- a purely non-magical fighter, champion will appreciate having ways to gain advantage and extra dice to actually make use of their criticals.

Including UA into the mix:

Stone/Giant soul Sorcerer- mix in the aberrant dragon mark feat and you can be truly SAD, stone will appreciate rage of Osteria adding to their melee reaction attack as well as the level 18 boost to con pushing their AC a little higher. Also an absolute stack of HP for a caster.

Path of the giant/beast barbarian- Huge size + silly jumps + pile driving dragons! Also the beast barbarians natural weapons count as simple weapons so benefit from the elemental bonus damage (especially claws), seems a little off brand but picking acid could work as some sort of engineered "biomorph" type character. could even theme the thrown attribute as shooting barbs.

[Mud Puppy]

Option 4:
multi-archetype levels just like multiclassing

Bob is a Level 3 Bard - Lore, Level 3 Wizard - War Mage
Jane is a Level 3 Fighter - Champion, Level 3 Fighter - Echo Knight

Jane gets 2 action surges, but won't get 2nd attack until level she levels one of the archetypes to level 5, so 8th or 9th level overalll

Option 4 is my vote. This is great!

[Hal]

The different options are basically, do you want to give the players flexibility in their powers, or do you want to give them wacky, game-breaking combinations? Personally, I'd go with option 1, because wacky combinations are fun.

It's been mentioned a few times, but this will hit the classes differently. Rogue doesn't get any more uses of sneak attack than it had before; same with Paladin/Cleric and Channel Divinity. On the other hand, Sorcerer with two subclasses now gets so, so many more spells, it's like Christmas.

More interesting is classes like Cleric, Bard, and Warlock. Their subclasses funnel them into either martial or spellcasting specializations. Being able to choose both represents a potent power jump, though there's always the opportunity cost (i.e. you're always going to get only one action each turn.) Still, a Valor/Lore Bard who chose his Magical Secrets wisely could be really potent.

Also, I'm assuming every fighter is just going to be Battlemaster plus something else, because why wouldn't you do that? Same thing for Totem Barbarians.

[Psyren]

Alchemist/Artillerist Artificer would be pretty good.



Your cantrips (Acid Splash and Firebolt) would get quite a damage boost. (Alchemist's tools explicitly include a rod, so you have a good chance of convincing a DM who is on board with this gestalt idea to let you make that into your arcane firearm while also getting your Savant bonus.)
You'd get a ton of free spell preparations, particularly healing and blasting, freeing up your main selections for utility and control.
Alchemist doesn't compete with Artillerist for your bonus actions, which could all go to your cannon or spells.
Your experimental elixir gives you concentration-free flight and attack roll boosts (which would also boost your ballista cannon).

[JLandan]

This very issue came up not too long ago in one of my games. The player wanted double Ranger archetypes. So after a great deal of thought and simulation, I decided on allowing it, but required full investment in the second Ranger class, the same as if it were any other class. In other words, he had to take Ranger 1 through 3 again to acquire the second archetype. I also enforced the "features with the same name do not get doubled" rule in the multiclass section of the PH. Luckily for him, Ranger has a lot of options at those levels, so he was still able to accumulate features. A class with fewer options would only gain HP and possibly spell slots.

[LibraryOgre]

I'd more lean towards "Make up a new archetype that blends the features you want", rather than some sort of gestalt or archetype switching scheme.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd more lean towards "Make up a new archetype that blends the features you want", rather than some sort of gestalt or archetype switching scheme.

Agreed. But I'm always a fan of solving "I want to make a character with X" via archetypes or classes rather than trying to shoehorn it in via complex gestalt/multiclass/etc schemes.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

My table uses an alternate path thing making Subclasses similar to Multiclassing in function, you might end up with a broader range of powers but not get the capstones.

Essentially whenever you get a Subclass feature you can either take the next step in your current subclass, or take the first step in another subclass.

So for a couple of examples.

Say you start off as a Grave Cleric. You get Spare the Dying as BA and at Range, you get the super healing from 0 and Eyes of the Grave. You hit Level 2. You can either take the Channel Divinity Feature, or maybe you'd found yourself as the Knowledge person in the group, so you take the first step of Knowledge Domain, getting new skills and Expertise and 2 more languages instead. At level 6 you can now choose the Channel Divinity Option for either Grave or Knowledge or maybe you take the first step in a third Domain.

The only exception is that for subclasses that grant extra spells, your first pick locks those in. So the above example only gets the extra spells Grave grants, not the ones from Knowledge.

[Psyren]

My table uses an alternate path thing making Subclasses similar to Multiclassing in function, you might end up with a broader range of powers but not get the capstones.

Essentially whenever you get a Subclass feature you can either take the next step in your current subclass, or take the first step in another subclass.

So for a couple of examples.

Say you start off as a Grave Cleric. You get Spare the Dying as BA and at Range, you get the super healing from 0 and Eyes of the Grave. You hit Level 2. You can either take the Channel Divinity Feature, or maybe you'd found yourself as the Knowledge person in the group, so you take the first step of Knowledge Domain, getting new skills and Expertise and 2 more languages instead. At level 6 you can now choose the Channel Divinity Option for either Grave or Knowledge or maybe you take the first step in a third Domain.

The only exception is that for subclasses that grant extra spells, your first pick locks those in. So the above example only gets the extra spells Grave grants, not the ones from Knowledge.

There are definitely some subclasses I'd be in favor of this with. My Assassin would much rather have Fast Hands and Supreme Sneak than Infiltration Expertise and Impostor.

[Quietus]

Alchemist/Artillerist Artificer would be pretty good.



Your cantrips (Acid Splash and Firebolt) would get quite a damage boost. (Alchemist's tools explicitly include a rod, so you have a good chance of convincing a DM who is on board with this gestalt idea to let you make that into your arcane firearm while also getting your Savant bonus.)
You'd get a ton of free spell preparations, particularly healing and blasting, freeing up your main selections for utility and control.
Alchemist doesn't compete with Artillerist for your bonus actions, which could all go to your cannon or spells.
Your experimental elixir gives you concentration-free flight and attack roll boosts (which would also boost your ballista cannon).


I'd be considering Armorer/ artillerist. Either lean into melee with the guardian armor and flamethrower, or ranged with infiltration mode and the force ballista. You've got extra infusions, a slight bump to spells when you need it, and later on you get built- in half cover and either control reactions or trace rounds. The same character could swap roles with a short rest.

[animorte]

Agreed. But I'm always a fan of solving "I want to make a character with X" via archetypes or classes rather than trying to shoehorn it in via complex gestalt/multiclass/etc schemes.
So you try using 5e the way it was intended, multi-classing less and solving the class itself within the subclasses versatility? Which is one thing I actually like about 5e. You can start with a class and keep it while going down a different path.


My table uses an alternate path thing making Subclasses similar to Multiclassing in function, you might end up with a broader range of powers but not get the capstones.

Essentially whenever you get a Subclass feature you can either take the next step in your current subclass, or take the first step in another subclass.
We’re having this exact discussion on my home-brew (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647451-Build-your-own-subclass!) if you have additional balancing input.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

We’re having this exact discussion on my home-brew (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647451-Build-your-own-subclass!) if you have additional balancing input.

Honestly, I'm sure there's SOME ways to break things, but so far it's only come up in two cases at our table. Was an Eberron campaign.

One was trying to replicate the idea for the Faerie Retinue that came up here (Knight Background, Swarm Keeper Range, Pact of Chain with Sprite Warlock). Was a higher level game and the player who wanted to do it was also REALLY keen on being the Party face and was originally going for Fey Wanderer before they saw this build. So they ended up as a Warlock 3/Ranger 8 with the Level 3 powers from Fey Wanderer and Swarm Keeper.

The other wanted to try and replicate the idea of that PrC back in 3.5 that was a Priest of the entire Sovereign Host. So they keep bouncing Cleric Domains like above. They ended up with the level 1 for Arcana, Forge, Life, and Peace. Was a bit wonky but no real balance issues.

Ultimately, I'm SURE someone can find somewhere where this is a really bad idea. But in general it allows for more varied characters and so we encourage it with the caveat that the DM can say no to such an option.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So you try using 5e the way it was intended, multi-classing less and solving the class itself within the subclasses versatility? Which is one thing I actually like about 5e. You can start with a class and keep it while going down a different path.


I've tried. But I'm too lazy to actually ban multi classing except for playtest homebrew classes. But the ideal, imo, is that DMs would be open to creating one off subclasses for specific needs.

[animorte]

Ultimately, I'm SURE someone can find somewhere where this is a really bad idea. But in general it allows for more varied characters and so we encourage it with the caveat that the DM can say no to such an option.
So the issue is really, how does one balance a martial’s spell-casting subclass with a martial’s non-spell-casting other subclass’ features?


I've tried. But I'm too lazy to actually ban multi classing except for playtest homebrew classes. But the ideal, imo, is that DMs would be open to creating one off subclasses for specific needs.
That really makes sense. My brother and I have done this a lot, working with each other (as he, my wife, and myself trade off as DM). Even modifying features from other classes entirely like: I wanted a Cloak of Flies Warlock with Spores Druid and Sawrmkeeper Ranger (aura of ew).

As long as it has some semblance of balance and everyone’s having fun at your table…

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So the issue is really, how does one balance a martial’s spell-casting subclass with a martial’s non-spell-casting other subclass’ features?

They got the Class feature "Spellcasting" at level whatever they took the first level of Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight or what have you. From that point on they'd follow the normal progression.

It leaves some clunkiness if they say, take Battlemaster at level 3 and then Eldritch Knight at a later point. But if they start with Eldritch Knight then away you go, just like normal. Only they get Maneuvers later instead of a Bonus action attack with Cantrip or the like.

[animorte]

They got the Class feature "Spellcasting" at level whatever they took the first level of Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight or what have you. From that point on they'd follow the normal progression.

It leaves some clunkiness if they say, take Battlemaster at level 3 and then Eldritch Knight at a later point. But if they start with Eldritch Knight then away you go, just like normal. Only they get Maneuvers later instead of a Bonus action attack with Cantrip or the like.
And you feel as though the overall progression of gaining spell levels would remain the same or that it would halt upon taking a different subclass’ feature? I was leaning toward the former, but that’s where it seems to create a balance concern.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

And you feel as though the overall progression of gaining spell levels would remain the same or that it would halt upon taking a different subclass’ feature? I was leaning toward the former, but that’s where it seems to create a balance concern.

That's how I'd run it. I don't SEE any major issues there, but until someone wants to run it I won't have hard data on it.

Edit, just realized I read your question incorrectly.

I'd run it nonstop.

If a Fighter takes Eldritch Knight at level 3 but then Battlemaster the rest of the time, they'll still have a full Fighter progression of Casting, just not the extras.

If they took EK at a later point I'd just count that as their effective "Level 3"

[animorte]

That's how I'd run it. I don't SEE any major issues there, but until someone wants to run it I won't have hard data on it.

Edit, just realized I read your question incorrectly.

I'd run it nonstop.

If a Fighter takes Eldritch Knight at level 3 but then Battlemaster the rest of the time, they'll still have a full Fighter progression of Casting, just not the extras.

If they took EK at a later point I'd just count that as their effective "Level 3"
I was starting to look at that as the way to go, much more balanced just like multi-classing. When you leave a class and come back to it, you always pick up right where you left off.

I appreciate your input. That does seem a lot more balanced.