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Mike_G
2007-11-27, 04:10 PM
Ok, I recently started a new campaign and built a Fighter. We started at Level 1, so I wanted a build that would be both immediately useful and still viable as he advanced.

Oddly, I found the best build, assuming you start at the bottom, is the build the board tends to find most worthless; Sword and Board.

OK, Here's my reasoning, bourne out by the math.

We were assigned stats: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. I obviously prioritized Str, then Dex, Con, Int, Cha and Wis. High I know, but even given different numbers, I'd probably prioritize the same way.

For feats: EWP and Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword and Dodge

"Are You on Crack?" you ask.

No. Here's my reasoning:

Now, the way to survive 1st level is : Don't get hit. That's where the Large Shield comes in so handy. With Scale, Large Shield, Dex, and Dodge my AC was 20 at level one. At that level, you're too poor for plate or an animated shield, so pump the Dex and take dodge. Plus, they increase Touch AC, which you want, since Rays suck.

The other reasons for prioritizing Dex over Con are ranged attacks, Reflex saves and initiative. As I level, I boost Con more, but at 1st, Dex wins over 1 more HP.

Why Sword and Board?

The extra AC from shield is worth more than the extra damage from two handing when you face Kobolds and Goblins. With a high Str, you can pretty much one-shot any CR 1 or lower melee foes without needing to go two handed.


Why Weapon Focus?

A +1 to hit matters a lot when your BAB is only 1, so WF is not a bad feat. As is, we can't afford magic, or even masterwork, so BAB and Str is all you got.

Plus, I will make more attack rolls with my favorite weapon than anything else in my career, and they will all be at +1. Well worth it as a first level feat.


And why spend a feat on EWP Bastard Sword?

So I can fight Sword and Board for now, and Two Handed later, when I actually have the BAB to spend on Power Attack.

Why not Power Attack and Greatsword?

WF raises my attack to +6 at level one, which means I hit the average Goblin on a 9, and should kill him with 1d10+4. He only hits me on an 18. If I max PA Greatsworded him, instead of WF, I'd need an 11 to hit, would overkill him for 2d6+8, and not using a shield would drop my AC to where I get hit on a 16, almost doubling the hits I'd take.

The difference between 1d10 Bastard Sword and 2d6 Greatsword is only 1.5 points of damage on average. Both get the 1.5 Str and 2xPA if used two handed, and I have the option of a shield, most likely used more at low level, but still, you need to survive the level 1 stuff to get to the level 20 stuff. I'll always have the +1 to hit from WF, and will only need to enchant the one weapon to use both ways.

Power attack is good, but not at 1st level. The BAB of 1 means you can only put a point into it, and hitting is more important than upping damage at that level. PA is a good 2nd or 3rd level feat.

The Trip chain is too feat intensive for 1st level, and why trip Goblins or Kobolds when you can just squash 'em?

As I level, I get Power Attack, then at 4th I bump Int and open up the Expertise, Improved Trip chain. Probably go Warblade around 5th or so, after I've scooped up the big Feats for the extra HD and the maneuvers.

So, the much maligned WF, Dodge and Sword and Board make a pretty good low level PC, and one who can grow.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 04:27 PM
You get the same benefits from a longsword and a bastard sword, except for the smaller dice. You can spend the WF: Longsword and retrain it for WF: Greatsword later without wasting a feat.

You're human right? I actually see promise in this if you choose the Complete Warrior Samurai for first level instead. You get EWP: Bastard sword as well as more skill points and Diplomacy and Conentration as class skills, and spend feats in dodge and WF: Bastard sword. Take four levels in Fighter after. Max out Concentration, build up Diplomacy and Ride to 5 each. Take your sixth level as a Kensai. Then one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow(bastard sword) then Finish kensai with your concentration high enough. Maybe dip into Complete Champion Lion Totem simple barbarian(favored enemy instead of rage, poune instead of fast movement) and get armors spikes. TWF, ITWF and GTWF slashing with 1d10+2(str mod) with your armor spikes as your offhand weapon.

Chronos
2007-11-27, 05:15 PM
Yes, a shield is nice at lower levels, but you don't need to build around that. You're already proficient with shields and longswords as a fighter, so you can go sword-and-board at low levels without having to spend any feats at all on it. You may not want to bother with Power Attack at low levels (since it can't yet get you any more than 1 or 2 points), but there are other good feats you could still invest in: Everyone likes Improved Initiative, for instance (especially at level 1, where the first hit can easily finish the fight).

Also, a reach weapon starts paying off immediately, too: The monsters can't hit you if they can't get to you. If you don't want to invest in the spiked chain right away, you can still start doing your reach-thing with a longspear or other reach weapon you're already proficient with.

And if you decide that you really want that bastard sword anyway, you can play as a dwarf, and get proficiency with the waraxe (equivalent to the bastard sword) for free. Feat-wise, this is the same as going human (since you don't get the bonus feat, but you get the proficiency for free), but you also get the dwarven advantages, like the Con boost (which makes a lot more difference for you than the Cha penalty).

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-27, 05:21 PM
Okay, you're an excellent level one character (still wasted a feat, optimially speaking, on Bastard Sword though, unless maybe you have Exotic Weapon Master levels in mind). You're not going to get nearly as much benefit out of Dodge or that shield later on, though.

However...investing in Improved Shield Bash and Two-Weapon/Improved Two-Weapon fighting (possible with that Dex, otherwise I'd say Agile Shield Fighter) gives you the same AC and significantly more damage potential later. Especially if you take a few levels of Rogue to turn yourself into a flanking machine (Boost your Dex two points and you get the same effect from a Chain Shirt as you would from full plate). If you take mostly fighter levels, you could even afford some of the neater shield feats and Oversized TWF. Not optimal, but fun.

kjones
2007-11-27, 05:22 PM
You'd probably be better off just using a Longsword instead of a Bastard Sword. It only does 1 point of damage less, on average, and you don't have to burn a feat.

Matthew
2007-11-27, 05:29 PM
I would just take a Long Sword at this level. I would probably take Weapon Focus (Long Sword) and Shield Specialisation (Heavy Shield) over Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). A Long Sword has an Average Damage of 4.5, a Great Sword has an Average Damage of 7. That 2.5 points of damage will make virtually no difference at high levels.

Mike_G
2007-11-27, 06:02 PM
Yes, a shield is nice at lower levels, but you don't need to build around that. You're already proficient with shields and longswords as a fighter, so you can go sword-and-board at low levels without having to spend any feats at all on it. You may not want to bother with Power Attack at low levels (since it can't yet get you any more than 1 or 2 points), but there are other good feats you could still invest in: Everyone likes Improved Initiative, for instance (especially at level 1, where the first hit can easily finish the fight).


Well, there no Feat cost to use the Shield, just the feat for Bastard Sword, and that's more for the multi use thing than the 1 extra point of average damage.

I can use the same weapon (and thus WF and any enchantments) one handed with a shield or two handed for the extra damage and later Power Attack. I'm sure the shield will get more use at low level, and the Two Handed mode at high, but there's a big span where you sometimes want the extra damage, and sometimes want the extra AC. I think that's worth a feat.




Also, a reach weapon starts paying off immediately, too: The monsters can't hit you if they can't get to you. If you don't want to invest in the spiked chain right away, you can still start doing your reach-thing with a longspear or other reach weapon you're already proficient with.


SKA-ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo the Spiked Chain.

I am a fully paid up member of the Spiked Chain Haytah Club. It's silly. It's breaks verisimilitude, and hurts me since I passed Physics in college and learned to fight in the Marines.

Also, the Shield build works against kobolds with crossbows, which a Reach Weapon build doesn't, since they're pretty much all two handed. Those 2 points of AC mean about halving your damage taken at 1st level.




And if you decide that you really want that bastard sword anyway, you can play as a dwarf, and get proficiency with the waraxe (equivalent to the bastard sword) for free. Feat-wise, this is the same as going human (since you don't get the bonus feat, but you get the proficiency for free), but you also get the dwarven advantages, like the Con boost (which makes a lot more difference for you than the Cha penalty).

Not much mechanical difference, I like the human 30' move though.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-27, 06:08 PM
You do know that you CAN use one handed weapons in two hands, right?

Mike_G
2007-11-27, 06:22 PM
You do know that you CAN use one handed weapons in two hands, right?

.......huh.

I mean, of course I knew that!

Actually, it never occurred to me to use a one handed weapon primarily two handed.

I assumed that the PA multiplier wouldn't work, but I guess that was a baseless prejudice.

Well, that'd save a feat, which is what I think all of you tried to tell me but I wasn't getting.

Yeril
2007-11-27, 06:28 PM
You do know that you CAN use one handed weapons in two hands, right?

Except one handed finessible weapons such as Rapiers.

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 06:30 PM
Basically, the only valid reason to get a bastard sword is if you plan to get Uncanny Blow from the Exotic Weapon Master PRC

Mike_G
2007-11-27, 06:33 PM
Basically, the only valid reason to get a bastard sword is if you plan to get Uncanny Blow from the Exotic Weapon Master PRC

You guys are right, just me having a blind spot about Longswords being one handed, Greatswords being two handed, and Bastard Swords being either. Since I can use a Longsword as either, without spending a Feat, that's the way to go.

Brawls
2007-11-27, 06:33 PM
Your build is very similar to my current character.

Half-orc fighter 6/ Warblade 1:
Feats: EWP - Bastard Sword (Katana), TWF, and Imp. Unarmed Combat, Weap. Focus - Bastard Sword, Weap. Spec. - Bastard Sword, Comat Reflexes, Power Attack.

I went with TWF early for the multiple attacks on to end fights fast. Now I am transforming into THF for the PA bonus as it out-damages TWF. However, in recent adventures we were captured and I had to fight unarmed, so it has been great to be able to use TWF with my unarmed attacks and still do respectable damage. I would like to work in Superior Unarmed Combat, but I'm not sure when.

Alternately, I have taken mostly counters for my WB manuevers, to plug gaps in the Fighter's weaknesses: Action Before Thought and Momment of Perfect Clarity. For attacks I have Punishing Stance and Emerald Nightmare Razor. I will likely take Blade Meditation as my next feat, as it synergizes well with the katana preferred weapon and concentration checks.

I certainly do not consider my build an optimized one, as several of my starting feats reflect role-playing backstory. However, that does not mean that are worthless. Like you, I started at level 1 and have been a powerhouse at all times so far. Since we rarely play campaigns past level 12 or so, I suspect with the WB levels he will continue to be a very effective participant in combat.

Good luck with your fighter. Revel in your proud tradition!

Brawls

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 06:45 PM
You guys are right, just me having a blind spot about Longswords being one handed, Greatswords being two handed, and Bastard Swords being either. Since I can use a Longsword as either, without spending a Feat, that's the way to go.

we are not saying that the bastard sword is a bad idea, but rather that you could plan ahead better by incorporating the EWM PRC. You will need a diamond mind Martial Stance feat though, to maximize concentration.

de-trick
2007-11-27, 06:49 PM
or wants to roll a bigger dice, or flavor. I like sword and board at any level

I have 2 characters that use Hammer and board and Mace and board

dwarfen cleric of moradin/ hammer of moradin

I got 1.5 in 1 hand(with warhammer) and a sweet throwing abilities, quake and more

5 level favored soul of lathander
had a AC of 22
10 base, +1 dex, +9 +1fullplate, +2 heavy shield= 22 (I never get hit once I buff up)

Sir Iguejo
2007-11-27, 06:52 PM
I would just stick with the longsword rather than the bastard sword. +1 average damage is not worth a feat. I would go for shield specialization, since the +1 AC would lower your to-be-hit chances by 5%, or mobility (sometimes the fighter must rush through the battlefield, and qualifies you for the spring attack feat)

liked very much your build. I find the sword and board build the funniest to roleplay. :smallbiggrin:

and if you have a wizard/sorcerer in your party, you coud go meatshield him and let the fireballs do the dirty work

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 07:15 PM
and if you have a wizard/sorcerer in your party, you coud go meatshield him and let the fireballs do the dirty work:

This is the most depressing role in a party. T_T

Jack Zander
2007-11-27, 07:15 PM
I would also consider going elf. You don't care for Con as much as Dex and that would make your AC 21 (assuming you can afford a chain shirt instead of scale mail). You'll also get all that nifty elven bonuses while only losing 1 skill point each level (well... 4 at first level) and that feat that was a waste anyway.

greenknight
2007-11-27, 07:32 PM
A good Core setup for a 1st level Human Fighter is Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Cleave. Personally, I prefer WF: Morningstar because of it's good base damage and dual types (bludgeoning and pierce), but any 1 handed weapon with d8 base damage (or better) is fine. Power Attack isn't all that useful right now, but you're going to need it at some point, and it's a pre-requisite for Cleave. As for Cleave, it's a good Feat to have at any level IMO, but at low levels it's fantastic for mowing down the opposition quickly - and that's the best way I know to avoid getting hit.

In comparison to your build, this one does do a bit less damage per hit, and the character's AC (vs a single foe only) is 1 lower. But the 8 average damage per hit (given your character's strength) is good enough to down most foes you'll meet at 1st level anyway. And Cleave means you'll often make 2 attack per round, usually downing your foe both times.

Matthew
2007-11-27, 07:40 PM
You guys are right, just me having a blind spot about Longswords being one handed, Greatswords being two handed, and Bastard Swords being either. Since I can use a Longsword as either, without spending a Feat, that's the way to go.

Heh, heh. Oh well, live and learn.


A good Core setup for a 1st level Human Fighter is Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Cleave. Personally, I prefer WF: Morningstar because of it's good base damage and dual types (bludgeoning and pierce), but any 1 handed weapon with d8 base damage (or better) is fine. Power Attack isn't all that useful right now, but you're going to need it at some point, and it's a pre-requisite for Cleave. As for Cleave, it's a good Feat to have at any level IMO, but at low levels it's fantastic for mowing down the opposition quickly - and that's the best way I know to avoid getting hit.

In comparison to your build, this one does do a bit less damage per hit, and the character's AC (vs a single foe only) is 1 lower. But the 8 average damage per hit (given your character's strength) is good enough to down most foes you'll meet at 1st level anyway. And Cleave means you'll often make 2 attack per round, usually downing your foe both times.

I dunno about that, I used to advocate it, but I have since seen Cleave fail a lot at low levels. What's the average chance? Something like: AB 6 with Strength 18 versus AC 15, so [0.6 x 0.6] or 0.36. I think I'd rather have the extra AC.

Chronos
2007-11-27, 11:05 PM
SKA-ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo the Spiked Chain.

I am a fully paid up member of the Spiked Chain Haytah Club. It's silly. It's breaks verisimilitude, and hurts me since I passed Physics in college and learned to fight in the Marines.If we're talking personal preferences, I agree. But you can't deny that, by the D&D mechanics, the spiked chain is a strong option.

Meanwhile, the value of Cleave depends on the adventures you're going on, and what sorts of enemies your DM likes to throw at you. If a typical encounter is a whole bunch of little things that wouldn't be a threat individually, then yes, Cleave is good. But if the typical encounter is a single big thing, then Cleave is useless. I would either talk with the DM to find out which sort of encounter he favors, or just wait a few levels before getting the feat so I can see for myself.

But you can be absolutely certain that sooner or later, any melee build is going to want Power Attack. Even if you don't use it immediately, it's never a wasted feat.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-27, 11:29 PM
If we're talking personal preferences, I agree. But you can't deny that, by the D&D mechanics, the spiked chain is a strong option.

Meanwhile, the value of Cleave depends on the adventures you're going on, and what sorts of enemies your DM likes to throw at you. If a typical encounter is a whole bunch of little things that wouldn't be a threat individually, then yes, Cleave is good. But if the typical encounter is a single big thing, then Cleave is useless. I would either talk with the DM to find out which sort of encounter he favors, or just wait a few levels before getting the feat so I can see for myself.

But you can be absolutely certain that sooner or later, any melee build is going to want Power Attack. Even if you don't use it immediately, it's never a wasted feat.

improved sunder is very underrated when your primary opponents are humanoids with no natural weapons. A fighter is a much weaker opponent if you simply cleave his sword in half and then proceed to beat the crap out of him. doesn't work too well against anything other than medium sized humanoids though...anything else has a 'slam' sttack that counts as a weapon so it doesn't matter. against the right enemy's though...man does it rock. too add insult to injury, one might even argue that sundering an object successfully counts as reducing your target to zero HP and thus you are eligible to cleave...

Draz74
2007-11-28, 12:04 AM
too add insult to injury, one might even argue that sundering an object successfully counts as reducing your target to zero HP and thus you are eligible to cleave...

Probably not, since such a Sundering Cleave is an explicit part of the Combat Brute feat. You have to take that feat if you want to pull this off, in my book (and I think most DMs would agree).

brian c
2007-11-28, 12:23 AM
Probably not, since such a Sundering Cleave is an explicit part of the Combat Brute feat. You have to take that feat if you want to pull this off, in my book (and I think most DMs would agree).

Yeah, but if you're playing Core only (and if your DM is only familiar with Core) then that's an argument that could be made. If you don't know about that feat, sundering cleave is a sensible part of sundering in general since it's not explicitly defined well enough (either cleave isn't or sunder isn't)

Doresain
2007-11-28, 12:27 AM
in regards to sundering an opponents weapon, do you get a circumstance bonus to intimidation to demoralize your opponent after sundering his weapon? i would think so, but i dont have any books

Chronos
2007-11-28, 01:41 AM
in regards to sundering an opponents weapon, do you get a circumstance bonus to intimidation to demoralize your opponent after sundering his weapon? i would think so, but i dont have any booksThere are very few cases where the rules specifically say you get a circumstance bonus to a check. Basically, you get a circumstance bonus whenever your DM decides that the circumstances justify it. So yeah, you might get a bonus to Intimidate after sundering, but it depends on your DM.

Doresain
2007-11-28, 02:06 AM
well i was kind of hoping that it would just be a general thing stated in the books and not dependent on the DM...i mean, realistically, if you break someone's weapon through shear force i could see them pissing themselves

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-28, 03:08 AM
well i was kind of hoping that it would just be a general thing stated in the books and not dependent on the DM...i mean, realistically, if you break someone's weapon through shear force i could see them pissing themselves

No...never explicitly stated...but it is pretty easy to argue that killing several people in front of them with ease, then, covered in the blood of their friends you sunde their weapon and threaten to kill them slowly...I think the DM could call that a grea circumstance bonus...or just allow you to take 20...after all...you did put in the extra effort :smallbiggrin:

Really though...in terms of defense...a shield is awesome...but why not use a longsword and take weapon focus, dodge, and expertise? dodge puts you on track for spring attack, expertise for trip and whirlwind, and you can use the bonus from weapon focus to add to your defense. If you have a +4 strength bonus like above, then you can sacrifice +2 to your to hit for +2 AC, get the +1 from dodge against your primary opponent, +2 from the shield, and +4 from the armor with a +3 from dex...that is an AC of 22 with a +4 bonus to hit anything...more than good enough for 1st level and orcs which have the best to hit at +6 will need a 17 to beat your armor class...since most things you'll face will have +3-4 at most with a 16AC, you are sitting pretty only having to worry about 19-20's and needing 13+ to hit. Work well with your group and you will always have a flank on your 'kill' target and will be able to hit on 11+ or further boost your AC.

With that sort of strategy, you won't have too much to fear from any baseline humans other than the occasional lucky shot. Within a level or two, you'll have upgraded your gear and will have beter armor and maybe some minor magical protection...unfortunately, your AC won't get that much better as you level, probably only going up by 1 or 2 points per level...very quickly you'll be outpaced by the crazy to hit mods of the enemies...then you will be very VERY glad of spring attack as you will be able to pass through threatened areas, attack, and then move away so that you never have to worry about a full attack on you..if you time things right...

FYI...on a good spacious grid...two characters with spring attack can in fact manuver around a giant or other creature with 10' reach in such a way that the creature will have to move more than 5' to hit a character and cannot hit both in case of a cleave. it is really hard to do though...I think it requires a speed boost of some sort.

SoD
2007-11-28, 06:58 AM
And why spend a feat on EWP Bastard Sword?

So I can fight Sword and Board for now, and Two Handed later, when I actually have the BAB to spend on Power Attack.

Appalogies if it's already been mentioned, you can use the bastard sword two handed without the EWP, as, when weilded two handed, it counts as a martial weapon. Mind you, then you're missing your heavy sheild for AC...but maybe if you decided to start with something else one handed, and then, when you can afford larger ACs you could start weilding your bastard sword. But I wouldn't bother, I'd just stick to what you're doing now, I just wanted to point out that if you were going to be taking the feat just to use it two handedly later on...it's a waste of a feat.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-28, 08:01 AM
My suggestion for a S&B build:
First, ask if your DM allow you to swap the Use Tower Shield for a Use Exotic Shield P(optional rule in Races of Stone), and pick Use Exotic Shield (Extreme Metal) or (Extreme Wood). It's basically a large shield with a +3 shield bonus instead of +2.
Then get Shield Specialization (AC +1), and Shield Ward (add shield bonus to touch AC) from Players 2. With that you already have a +4 bonus that counts against touch attacks.
With the last one, you could get power attack if you need extra damage (not as good as a two-hander, but still good), or maybe Combat Expertise or Dodge, if you feel you need even more AC.
For higher levels, Improved Shield Bash and Agile Shield Fighter is not bad, if you combine it with others abilities. The one that let you block one arrow every round, or to make stun attacks are good. If your DM allow, get Two-Weapon Pounce to attack with both your weapon and shield when charging, using Agile Shield Fighter as requisite instead of TWF.
You can always switch to a two-handed reach/tripping weapon and an animated shield if you want, and retraining the unused feats (Dungeon Master 2 optional rule).