Odd question, but why isn't grave cleric thought to be the best cleric?

[Odessa333]

Personally, I feel grave is the best by far, and most I know don't even put it at the top five. You get spare the dying as a ranged, bonus action cantrip, and your healing is maximized for allies at 0 HP. I find that better healing that life cleric's pluses. You curse an enemy with vulnerability, opening them up to a world of hurt from a rogue sneak attack or paladin smite. You can negate critical hits! That level of protection should be mind blowing on it's own. And then you can learn to heal as a free action when a foe dies, aka not on your turn. Again, something no life cleric can do. You get anti-life shell to keep the worst off of you, and potent cantrip to aid in keeping your distance.

I love this subclass. I think it's the best cleric subclass, and I'll die on that hill. Still, I want to know keeps it from being the best in others opinions.

[Ganryu]

Personally, I played one, at low levels, it is the best cleric. But high levels, it just isn't as good. People tend not to go down as often, and it's better have them up and moving with healing word than it is just stabilized.

The vulnerability thing is sweet at lower levels, but high levels really only paladin and rogue really benefit, and syncing your turn with theirs is difficult.

Crits come from attack rolls, and most enemies tend to have more devastating saves than hits at higher levels.

So it's nice, but higher levels, it just doesn't do as well.

Oh, also Peace and Twilight cleric are now bust beyond belief and need nerfing, so they're the 'golden boys' that every DM hates.

[meandean]

Well, comparing to Life isn't dispositive when Life isn't thought to be the best to begin with. Using a reaction to downgrade a crit at 6th level is very good. But a 2nd level Twilight Cleric can give each member of the party a consistent ~5 temporary hit points, every round, without using any actions after the first round. That's going to add up to more on average than downgrading a crit, and usually a lot more, with better action economy. Since the Twilight Cleric can also give allies 300' darkvision, and it's dim light within the Twilight Sanctuary, your group can be at even more advantage if your enemies don't also have darkvision. At the least, any humans in your party will no longer have their major species disadvantage, and anyone who has very long-range abilities will be able to attack enemies who can't even see them. Also, the Twilight Sanctuary will cancel out any charm or frighten effect placed on any ally at the end of their turn. Also, Twilight Clerics can give themselves (or another party member) advantage on initiative. Also, Twilight Clerics have heavy armor proficiency. Again, all this by 2nd level.

By the time you do get to 6th level, the Twilight Sanctuary is giving out ~9 temporary hit points to everyone every round. There's also the minor point that this is when the Twilight Cleric gets concentration-less flight.

Peace Cleric is a little harder to quantify, but if you read the text of Emboldening/Protective Bond, it's obvious how powerful these abilities are.

Prior to Tasha's, I don't think there was a consensus "best cleric". But I also don't think most would have had Life in their top tier.

[Dr.Samurai]

Personally, I feel grave is the best by far, and most I know don't even put it at the top five. You get spare the dying as a ranged, bonus action cantrip, and your healing is maximized for allies at 0 HP. I find that better healing that life cleric's pluses. You curse an enemy with vulnerability, opening them up to a world of hurt from a rogue sneak attack or paladin smite. You can negate critical hits! That level of protection should be mind blowing on it's own. And then you can learn to heal as a free action when a foe dies, aka not on your turn. Again, something no life cleric can do. You get anti-life shell to keep the worst off of you, and potent cantrip to aid in keeping your distance.

I love this subclass. I think it's the best cleric subclass, and I'll die on that hill. Still, I want to know keeps it from being the best in others opinions.
I have one in my party and the downgrading crit ability is great. The issues we have run into are the range; our cleric is not very mobile and sometimes he's not close enough to me or the ranger to be able to use the anti-crit ability.

The impose vulnerability power is great, but it requires an action to set up and I have found that our cleric simply never wants to take the action/risk of setting that up. I don't think he has used it a single time over 13 levels.

He has used the max heal ability once when our wizard went down.

All in all, I do think the abilities look good and my instinct tells me it's a good cleric subclass, but in my limited anecdotal experience, the abilities don't get used that often.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Oh, also Peace and Twilight cleric are now bust beyond belief and need nerfing, so they're the 'golden boys' that every DM hates.

This. Grave is good, but Peace and Twilight are nuts. And not in a good way.

[Willie the Duck]

Prior to Tasha's, I don't think there was a consensus "best cleric". But I also don't think most would have had Life in their top tier.
I think a life cleric has a rather specific niche where they shine (not what you want in the version kinda-sorta depicted as the 'default' cleric). If your party is pushing the encounters per day to the absolute limit and people are just coming out of fights looking beat all to hades and back, a life cleric can -- between spells and channels divinities and riders on the spells and doing some extra front-lining because they get dedicated healing along with healing others and so on -- push out a higher maximum total amount of hp healed than other clerics. Given how rare that playstyle is (and now that Twilight Clerics horn in on the subset of that playstyle where ~5 THP a round to everyone, and then normal extra healing for the one guy who gets clobbered, is on-par), it's not exactly optimal all that often.

As for best, I agree there was no consensus pre-Tasha's. Light and Tempest often were seen as 'not optimal, but super fun'; Nature, Trickery and War kinda either weren't good or at least weren't what people wanted in a conceptually nature, trickery, or war cleric; and all the rest just kina got lumped together in a blur where which you favored depended on playstyle.

[J-H]

Another point in favor of Life cleric is that the Life Cleric gets most of the "You should take this" spells as domain spells, leaving more spell slots open for optional choices.
Life Domain spells include: Bless, Cure Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Revivify, Raise Dead,
Almost all clerics want Bless, Cure Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Revivify, and Raise Dead. Lesser Restoration, Guardian of Faith, and Mass Cure Wounds aren't stinkers either.

[Dalinar]

Can't measure a fish by how well it climbs a tree. Can't judge a cleric if you don't know what you're building the cleric for.

Aside from the obvious powerhouses that are the Tasha's subclasses, there's stuff in the books like Forge which gets free defensive features, Arcana which pops off HARD when it gets its level 17 feature and has a lot of neat utility aside, some blaster-style domains like Tempest and Light, very powerful control from Nature (seriously, go read the Plant Growth spell, it's criminally underrated), and powerful buffs and debuffs from Order (got a Sharpshooter Rogue in the party? Give them Bless and a reaction attack on top of that).

Even the oft-overlooked Knowledge Cleric is a pretty solid information gatherer, packing expertise in two knowledge-related skill checks, lots of divinations, and seriously I never even read the level 6 Channel Divinity until just now but it seems *very good.*

You CAN build a very strong hitpoint-sustaining cleric from domains like Life, Twilight, Peace, or Grave, but you don't have to play the class that way, and what you're trying to accomplish informs what domain is best for you.

[nickl_2000]

Because why bother stabilizing someone when they can't get low enough to go unconscious due to the metric ****ton of temp HPs that a PC gets every single round from Twilight Cleric

[MrStabby]

To agree with others... peace and twilight are stand out. So putting them aside:

Grave is solid. Its good. Nothing I say is intended to say its bad, but I think some of these things are overrated.

Look at making things vulnerable to damage. However much value this can add, you could have added by being the class that made that specific attack. Again, it's fine but it isn't like your action spent setting this up can ever be more powerful than the action that delivers the damage. Its nice that a cleric can spend a turn every now and again to do damage but for most martial characters at level 5+ you are doing at best half their attacks (and 1/3 if they have a bonus action atrack). Spending an action and a resource for this is not super powerful.

Likewise sentinel at deaths door is good, but not great. If you can pick up silvery barbs through fey touched then I would still go for that. Getting these effects is nice but your team mate still gets hit and is still taking at least half damage. It also isn't free, in needs you to keep your reaction free - so no counterspell (if say mark of sentinel or Azorious cleric) and no shield (if you were to have multiclassed) and no attacks of opportunity.

The other parts of the class are also not great. The domain spell list is a bit meh.

Circle of mortality is another... ok ability. Its one of those abilities that needs other party members to go down, but for you to remain conscious. Life cleric at least let's you get some value out of it before the first person goes down, moreover if that amount of HP damage is hitting the party then their channel divinity becomes pretty awesome. If you are paralysed, stunned or otherwise unable to react then tough. It's also worth pointing out that one of the better healing spells, healing word, gets very little extra benefit from this so may push you towards the less streamlined cure wounds instead (or aura of vitality if those rules are in play)

These things are good, but I just don't feel they are exceptional. I think one thing that makes me value this a bit less is that you can usual get the effect of better healing by spending a bit more resources - not efficient and you will feel it in a long day, but if you need it then it's usually there. I tend to value more the abilities the class can't get through other means.

[stoutstien]

Pretty middle of the road as far as Cleric domais go.the majority of the domains fall into that category and that's a good thing. What that means is sometimes it will be the best choice depending on your party composition and the campaign setting.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Simple Answer to the prompt:

Grave Cleric isn’t thought to be the best cleric subclass, because quite simply, it is not the best cleric subclass.

By no means, is it the worst cleric subclass, and by no means is it a ‘bad’ subclass.

Circle of Mortality and Path to Death’s door are strong abilities.
Sentinel at Death’s Door is a strong ability, but loses some value by being situational and sight dependent.

(The Rune Knight also, has stolen some of the Thunder from the Grave domain.)

Keeper of Souls, is an ability I’ve never been too fond of, as it relies upon referencing a static that is largely unknown to players: Monster Hit Dice.

Demogorgon, for example has 32 Hit Dice. Kill Demogorgon, and someone can heal 32 Hit points. This healing is ‘free’, and usable once per turn.

In terms of Domain List…the Grave Domain spell list strikes me as an admixture of the NPC Death Domain and Life Domain spell lists.

Gentle Repose, Revivify, Death Ward, and Raise Dead are decent utility options to always have prepared.

One issue is once one has Gentle Repose prepared, one likely does not need Revivify or Raise Dead as well. If Bob goes down in combat, one application of the “Flavor Sealer”, aka Gentle Repose gives you 10 days to cast Revivify/Raise Dead.

Bane and False Life fit the Grave theme as well. False Life and Aid when used together, can make a cleric quite robust, (for an hour at least).

The rest of the Domain spells are ok-ish….

[Yakmala]

Grave is one of my favorite Cleric domains, but it is not the best domain.

Ranged Spare the Dying is all well and good, but 9 times out of 10, I'm going to do a Healing Word for max heal instead. Unless I'm completely out of spell slots, why stabilize when you can get then back on their feet?

Circle of Mortality is great, but a lot depends on your position in the initiative order. You want to wait for an ally to drop to 0 before healing to get maximum benefit, but depending on when they go down, and how the initiative order played out, this could mean they are missing a turn, or worse, getting finished off by intelligent monsters. Meanwhile, a Twilight Cleric is providing fresh Temp HP every turn and a Life Cleric has boosted healing without the compulsion to wait until their ally is down.

Eyes of the Grave is very situational. How often are you going to have undead within 60' that are not behind total cover and not already know about it?

Path to the Grave is great! Party members will love you, but it only reaches its full potential when you have a Rogue or Paladin taking advantage of it. I'd rank the Order Cleric's ability to give a party member a reaction attack by casting a spell on them a better way to generate extra damage.

Sentinel at Death's Door is very useful, but there are other classes or spells that can generate similar or better effects.

[Warder]

Grave Cleric is probably my favorite subclass that I could never play, because Sentinel at Death's Door belongs to the class of abilities that (I feel) just shouldn't exist. Removing crits on demand is great mechanically, but it also removes a great deal of excitement from combat. Highs AND lows are both great, and anything that cancels out either, or allows rerolls, just isn't something I enjoy having in my games. But yeah, other than that I think Grave is fantastic. I always wanted to make a Vampiric Touch-focused Cleric that balances out the forces of life and death.

[LudicSavant]

Odd question, but why isn't grave cleric thought to be the best cleric?


Personally, I feel grave is the best by far, and most I know don't even put it at the top five. You get spare the dying as a ranged, bonus action cantrip

This feature is basically a ribbon.

Spare the Dying is one of the poorest Cleric cantrips, and even boosted to a ranged bonus action, it is still unlikely to make a decisive difference in most scenarios. As the PHB itself says, the best way to save a creature with 0 hit points is to heal it.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/834358053746769940/994006596655005696/unknown.png


and your healing is maximized for allies at 0 HP. I find that better healing that life cleric's pluses.

Maximizing isn't as good as the Life Cleric's pluses. Let's compare the relevant spells.

Healing Word: Maximizing a level 1 Healing Word grants +1.5 average hp over a typical cast (since you go from average 2.5 on a d4 to 4 on a d4). A level 1 Life Cleric gets +3 hp over a typical cast. Clearly superior, and it will only grow more superior as the Life Cleric gains further abilities.

Okay, what about upcasting? Well, upcasting Healing Word is usually not worth it, but even if you did, a level 2 slot would heal +3 for the Grave and +4 for the Life. A level 3 slot would heal +4.5 for the Grave and +5 for the Life. A level 4 slot would heal +6 for Grave and +12 for Life (since they'd have Blessed Healer by this level).

In short, Healing Word is better for the Life Cleric.

Cure Wounds: Maximizing a level 1 Cure Wounds will give +3.5 hp for Grave, or +3 for Cleric (or +6 if they have Blessed Healer, +9.5 if they have Supreme Healing).

So at low levels they have a very, very slight advantage in how much their Cure Wounds heals, and only if the target is at 0 hp. And that teensy 0.5 hp advantage will disappear when the Life Cleric hits level 6, leaving only cons.

Okay, what about upcasting? Well, a level 2 slot will give +7 average for Grave, or +4 for Life (+8 if they have Blessed Healer). A level 3 slot will give +10.5 for Grave, +10 for a Life Cleric of at least level 6.

Mass Healing Word: Maximizing a level 3 slot of this is worth +1.5 average HP per target that's at zero. Meanwhile, a Cleric is getting +5 average hp per target (to a maximum of +30 hp value on 6 targets), plus another +5 self-healing via Blessed Healer. Life Cleric's heal is far superior.

Mass Cure Wounds Maximizing a level 5 slot of this is worth 10.5 extra HP on a target at zero. A Life Cleric is getting +7 hp per target (up to +42 on 6 targets) plus another +7 self-healing.

Aura of Vitality: From a level 3 slot, a Life Cleric will get +5 hp per tick of Aura of Vitality. A Grave Cleric will get +5 average hp per tick if and only if the target is at zero on that tick.

This is a truly massive amount of healing to spread around as a Life Cleric.

Regenerate: For a Life Cleric, this heals 10 hp at the beginning of each turn, for six hundred turns, Concentration free. It's basically "don't worry about hit points for an hour."

Heal/Life Transference/Mass Heal/Goodberry/etc Maximize doesn't help these abilities. Life Cleric's bonuses do.


Pretty much the only spell where the Grave Cleric might benefit more than the Life Cleric is upcast Cure Wounds at certain levels, and Cure Wounds is not one of the better healing spells around.


You curse an enemy with vulnerability, opening them up to a world of hurt from a rogue sneak attack or paladin smite.

You can sort of think of the curse a Channel Divinity that takes an Action and deals damage equivalent to the next hit on the marked enemy. It's reliant on party composition and lining up turn order (possibly with Ready) to get real value (since an Attack is often worth less than a full Action+CD), but it is a solid ability.


potent cantrip to aid in keeping your distance The difference between Divine Strike and Potent Cantrip matters somewhat less in the post-Tasha's era, because of the Blessed Strikes variant.

[RogueJK]

Ranged Spare the Dying is all well and good, but 9 times out of 10, I'm going to do a Healing Word for max heal instead. Unless I'm completely out of spell slots, why stabilize when you can get then back on their feet?

More like 999 out of 1000. Even if you're completely out of spell slots, there are still ways to get them back on their feet rather than just stabilizing them.


Grave Cleric merely turns Spare the Dying from "a cantrip that's not worth taking or casting" into "a cantrip that is almost never worth casting, but you get it for free, so it doesn't cost you anything to keep in your back pocket and maybe it might prove useful in some random situation someday".

[LudicSavant]

* Maximizing healing spells is significantly less beneficial than one might expect. Maximizing a d4 is just +1.5 average hp per die, a d6 is just +2.5 average hp, and a d8 is just +3.5 average hp... and this is for the few healing spells that do scale properly off of maximizing. This is swiftly outpaced by the likes of the Life Cleric (who gets +3 to any heal at level 1, and scales dramatically from there), let alone the absolute shenanigans that are possible for properly set up Peace & Twilight Clerics.

* Spare the Dying is just a ribbon, even as a ranged bonus action. Not even one of the better ribbons, either.

* Interrupting crits is nice, but it basically converts to a handful of extra dice of HP per day. Contrast, say, the amount of hit points a Life Cleric tacks onto even a single Aura of Vitality.

* Path to the Grave is exchanging an Action, a CD charge, and an initiative delay for the damage of a single Attack. So in order for this to be worth it, it needs to be comboed with specific party members (think a Rogue or smiting Paladin), and you've gotta line up the turn order (possibly by readying the attack). But if we're going to talk about things you can do with the right party combinations, well... Peace Cleric is sitting right over there.

* The Grave Cleric domain list is merely okay. It's nice to have the resurrection spells on call, but aside from that there's not a whole lot there. Certainly not anything that elevates it beyond its competition. The OP mentioned Antilife Shell, but that competes for Concentration and can be countered by a wide variety of enemies and tactics. There's nothing "next level" on that spell list.


More like 999 out of 1000. Even if you're completely out of spell slots, there are still ways to get them back on their feet rather than just stabilizing them.


Grave Cleric merely turns Spare the Dying from "a cantrip that's not worth taking or casting" into "a cantrip that is almost never worth casting, but you get it for free, so it doesn't cost you anything to keep in your back pocket and maybe it might prove useful in some random situation someday".

Basically, yeah.

[Schwann145]

Grave Cleric's Spare the Dying is getting a little too downplayed here.

Yes, it's still basically a ribbon ability, but sometimes being able to stabilize is important and valuable. The reason the base cantrip sucks is because it's literally no better than using a healer's kit, so why blow a cantrip slot when you can just spend a few gold and have the same thing? Load your Rogue or whomever up with a couple and you're good to go.
Making it a bonus action and ranged and free makes it noticeably better than the healer's kit version. You save money, you don't have to burn a cantrip slot, and you can do it quickly, when it matters.

Is healing better? Of course it is. But healing isn't guaranteed to be available, while StD is.

If it's worth carrying healer's kits (and it is), then a Grave Domain's StD is worth having, and is better. Period.

[Millstone85]

My issue with Grave is the flavor. You are supposed to be a cleric who specializes in returning the undead to their graves. Yet you only get the one undead-related feature and...
Eyes of the Grave is very situational. How often are you going to have undead within 60' that are not behind total cover and not already know about it? yeah, it is next to useless.

[Willie the Duck]

These things are good, but I just don't feel they are exceptional. I think one thing that makes me value this a bit less is that you can usual get the effect of better healing by spending a bit more resources - not efficient and you will feel it in a long day, but if you need it then it's usually there. I tend to value more the abilities the class can't get through other means.

What I notice about the features is that they neither align to a specific whole nor create a specific formula of play. Many are reactive, and you can't control how often the situation in which they are useful will come up. Regardless of how on-paper good playing a plant growth Nature cleric or Tempest mini-Thor or an Arcana blender or whatnot actually is, you know what you can do and can set up (at the build/level-up phase and at the gameplay phase) leaning into these concepts. A grave cleric can... not bother buying a healing kit, be a little less frightened of using up all their spell slots (something that doesn't come up frequently), and their party front-liners can stay in-combat closer to 0 hp since they won't be scared of a crit (but people tend to play that way already).

[MrStabby]

What I notice about the features is that they neither align to a specific whole nor create a specific formula of play. Many are reactive, and you can't control how often the situation in which they are useful will come up. Regardless of how on-paper good playing a plant growth Nature cleric or Tempest mini-Thor or an Arcana blender or whatnot actually is, you know what you can do and can set up (at the build/level-up phase and at the gameplay phase) leaning into these concepts. A grave cleric can... not bother buying a healing kit, be a little less frightened of using up all their spell slots (something that doesn't come up frequently), and their party front-liners can stay in-combat closer to 0 hp since they won't be scared of a crit (but people tend to play that way already).

There is an element of redundancy here as well. You get to stabalise people and mitigate critical hits. Critical hits are what lead people to need to be stabalised. You get bonuses to heal people at 0HP which stabalises them, rendering your ability to stabilise them redundant.

You get one half decent proactive ability in the whole class and even that isn't actually good - just a bit more versatiity.

[LudicSavant]

If it's worth carrying healer's kits (and it is), then a Grave Domain's StD is worth having, and is better. Period.

"GC Spare the Dying is situationally a little better than a 5gp item" is not a big deal. It's a ribbon, and not even one of the better ribbons.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As someone who's currently playing a martial with a Grave Cleric dip I'll chip in with that context in mind.

Circle of Mortality is, as has been mentioned, only worth a couple of hp, though it has led to some good role playing moments where my party has wanted healing and I either tell them they need to be unconscious for me to bring forth the power of Anubis to manipulate the line between life and death, or I suggest I remove remaining hp then heal them. In reality I only have a few slots, so in this case flavor is in line with good tactics.
Spare the Dying as a BA I've used a few times on NPCs; in one case the explicit goal of the combat was to save NPCs, so it was handy to be able to do that and use my action to keep fighting. If I was out of slots, I'd consider using it on a PC, but otherwise it's Healing Word all the way.

Eyes of the Grave has worked a few times; there are occasionally piles of bones that the party isn't sure about, or we're exploring areas that are graveyards, burial sights, etc and I've picked the right time to check. When it works, it's great as it usually allows pre-casting and prep to dominate an encounter.

Path to the Grave is the reason I took the subclass; as has been mentioned a couple of times this is a great ability when it works with a Rogue sneak attack, and just awesome if you can use it with an Assassin's auto-crit. If you don't have a Rogue or something that can reliably hit really hard with one attack, this is probably not the subclass for an effective dip.

Overall, I like the flavor and it's worked well as intended. Bless and Healing Word stay viable forever, which is to say that any Cleric dip on a martial has value. We've had a lot of Clerics of various subclasses and all have been good. Even discounting the 2 new broken ones I can't see any reason why Grave is 'the best'. If you've got an Assassin PC, the Grave is your best buddy, but that's very niche.

[Thunderous Mojo]

"GC Spare the Dying is situationally a little better than a 5gp item" is not a big deal. It's a ribbon, and not even one of the better ribbons.

One aspect to also be mindful is a cleric, often wants their Bonus Action available for a Spiritual Weapon attack or Divine Word.

My experience, is even when a Grave Cleric does cast Spare the Dying, they may decide to still do so as an Action.

[Samayu]

Grave cleric is the only cleric I've played in recent memory. I enjoyed it. But...

I think I cast STD three times, and all in the first tier. Those times it was very useful to have at range.
Path to the grave was pretty good through second tier. Didn't come up as much in third.
I cashed in on Eyes of the Grave exactly once. "A cave full of corpses? Eyes of the Grave!" "You see three undead, and there are still several corpses beyond 60 feet."
Eliminate a critical hit? You mean, reduce damage by less than half? Not very exciting unless there are riders on that crit (or you happen to be able to save the target from unconsciousness).
Max hit points on a heal spell if target is at zero? This is awesome! It's even better if your group is plagued by arguments like "don't heal him until he drops, because the math is better" versus "heal me now, before I die!"
Domain spells - Revivify and Death Ward are the only really good ones on the list.

Mentions of Life Cleric, above. Life is probably the best domain if you rate domains by how well they do their thing. Life clerics do life better than any other cleric does their thing. But how much life do you want to do? They end up being pretty boring.

[animorte]

I love this subclass. I think it's the best cleric subclass, and I'll die on that hill. Still, I want to know keeps it from being the best in others opinions.
Yeah, this is how I feel about Trickery... almost (that level 6).

I will gladly admit that Twilight is a monster, but I honestly think Peace might be better.

[Pex]

Well, comparing to Life isn't dispositive when Life isn't thought to be the best to begin with. Using a reaction to downgrade a crit at 6th level is very good. But a 2nd level Twilight Cleric can give each member of the party a consistent ~5 temporary hit points, every round, without using any actions after the first round. That's going to add up to more on average than downgrading a crit, and usually a lot more, with better action economy. Since the Twilight Cleric can also give allies 300' darkvision, and it's dim light within the Twilight Sanctuary, your group can be at even more advantage if your enemies don't also have darkvision. At the least, any humans in your party will no longer have their major species disadvantage, and anyone who has very long-range abilities will be able to attack enemies who can't even see them. Also, the Twilight Sanctuary will cancel out any charm or frighten effect placed on any ally at the end of their turn. Also, Twilight Clerics can give themselves (or another party member) advantage on initiative. Also, Twilight Clerics have heavy armor proficiency. Again, all this by 2nd level.

By the time you do get to 6th level, the Twilight Sanctuary is giving out ~9 temporary hit points to everyone every round. There's also the minor point that this is when the Twilight Cleric gets concentration-less flight.

Peace Cleric is a little harder to quantify, but if you read the text of Emboldening/Protective Bond, it's obvious how powerful these abilities are.

Prior to Tasha's, I don't think there was a consensus "best cleric". But I also don't think most would have had Life in their top tier.

I'll be playing a Twilight cleric in a hopefully long campaign, so I'll see for myself the effect it has. For now, on paper, while I agree it's strong I'm not convinced it's too strong. If charm and fear at low levels was so prevalent to worry about then Heroism and Calm Emotions would be on everyone's must have spell list. The temporary hit points I grant is very nice, but it means remaining in Fireball formation. Twilight gets heavy armor because to keep the warriors buffed he's in there too getting attacked. The party is more durable, but I'm not seeing it as an issue. The party, in general, is supposed to win the fight anyway. If they need to spend less healing resources that's just doing their job.

[Segev]

I'll be playing a Twilight cleric in a hopefully long campaign, so I'll see for myself the effect it has. For now, on paper, while I agree it's strong I'm not convinced it's too strong. If charm and fear at low levels was so prevalent to worry about then Heroism and Calm Emotions would be on everyone's must have spell list. The temporary hit points I grant is very nice, but it means remaining in Fireball formation. Twilight gets heavy armor because to keep the warriors buffed he's in there too getting attacked. The party is more durable, but I'm not seeing it as an issue. The party, in general, is supposed to win the fight anyway. If they need to spend less healing resources that's just doing their job.

I think what you'll find isn't that fear and charm are super-prevalent, but that they're rare enough that you'll often not find that aspect of your power useful. But it still will be useful for the other things it does. The fact you can negate fear and charm effects with the same thing that you already have that is useful, with no additional cost for doing so, and without having to prepare spells that you probably won't use most of the time, will prove invaluable, however. Consider that most clerics have to choose whether to prepare the spells you mentioned or not. Most of the time, if they prepare them "just in case," they will find that they're clogging up their spells prepared list, and not useful. However, when they're useful, they're crucial, because those effects are nasty, especially at tier 1.

So, a cleric who isn't a Twilight has to choose to either not prepare the spells to deal with fear and charm unless he has advanced warning that they probably will be useful, and thus have two more spells prepared that he is more likely to use that day, but risk having an unexpected fear or charm effect whammy the party royally; or he has to choose to prepare those two spells, which he won't use most of the time, all of the time, cluttering up his spell preparation list for those "just in case" moments.

The Twilight Cleric has a feature to deal with them. Now, under normal class design paradigms, this would be fine, or even a little on the weak side, since it'd be situational (like the named spells), and thus be a subclass choice - an investment - that only pays off as often as preparing those spells would. But the Twilight Cleric's ability to deal with those is almost a ribbon on the main ability. The main ability is useful literally every combat, and also has a situational side benefit if it happens to come up. The Twilight Cleric doesn't have to give up anything to be nearly perfectly prepared, at least as well as the cleric who has the spells in his spells prepared list.

[MrStabby]

I think what you'll find isn't that fear and charm are super-prevalent, but that they're rare enough that you'll often not find that aspect of your power useful. But it still will be useful for the other things it does. The fact you can negate fear and charm effects with the same thing that you already have that is useful, with no additional cost for doing so, and without having to prepare spells that you probably won't use most of the time, will prove invaluable, however. Consider that most clerics have to choose whether to prepare the spells you mentioned or not. Most of the time, if they prepare them "just in case," they will find that they're clogging up their spells prepared list, and not useful. However, when they're useful, they're crucial, because those effects are nasty, especially at tier 1.

So, a cleric who isn't a Twilight has to choose to either not prepare the spells to deal with fear and charm unless he has advanced warning that they probably will be useful, and thus have two more spells prepared that he is more likely to use that day, but risk having an unexpected fear or charm effect whammy the party royally; or he has to choose to prepare those two spells, which he won't use most of the time, all of the time, cluttering up his spell preparation list for those "just in case" moments.

The Twilight Cleric has a feature to deal with them. Now, under normal class design paradigms, this would be fine, or even a little on the weak side, since it'd be situational (like the named spells), and thus be a subclass choice - an investment - that only pays off as often as preparing those spells would. But the Twilight Cleric's ability to deal with those is almost a ribbon on the main ability. The main ability is useful literally every combat, and also has a situational side benefit if it happens to come up. The Twilight Cleric doesn't have to give up anything to be nearly perfectly prepared, at least as well as the cleric who has the spells in his spells prepared list.

I think my only slight quibble with this (and it is very slight indeed) is that clerics do get more spells onhand than any other class given their bonus domain spells. If any class could afford to have one or two spells free then it's cleric. Add to this that some spells are very general purpose (bless, healing word) and other scale sufficiently well to make them appealing upcast (spirit guardians, banishment) and you can actually put a lot of spells into niche functions as a cleric. The marginal benefit of the chaneel divinity on a Twighlight Cleric is huge, but just a tiny bit smaller than something similar might be on a different class.

[Segev]

I think my only slight quibble with this (and it is very slight indeed) is that clerics do get more spells onhand than any other class given their bonus domain spells. If any class could afford to have one or two spells free then it's cleric. Add to this that some spells are very general purpose (bless, healing word) and other scale sufficiently well to make them appealing upcast (spirit guardians, banishment) and you can actually put a lot of spells into niche functions as a cleric. The marginal benefit of the chaneel divinity on a Twighlight Cleric is huge, but just a tiny bit smaller than something similar might be on a different class.
Fair enough. As you note, though, and I think bears reiterating: the marginal utility on Twilight Domain is just so much greater than the marginal utility anything else gets that it...stands out.

As a momentary thought's more put it based on your observation, I shall edit to add that if a cleric domain had a feature that read, "At second level, instead of a channel divinity, you can prepare any two additional spells you want from the cleric list, on top of your normal allowance," that might be roughly equivalent.

[MrStabby]

As a momentary thought's more put it based on your observation, I shall edit to add that if a cleric domain had a feature that read, "At second level, instead of a channel divinity, you can prepare any two additional spells you want from the cleric list, on top of your normal allowance," that might be roughly equivalent.

"and cast them once per short rest without using a spell slot. At levels 6 and 17 tis rises to two times and three times respectively. You may then not cast these spells again untill you complete a short rest"

[Pex]

I think what you'll find isn't that fear and charm are super-prevalent, but that they're rare enough that you'll often not find that aspect of your power useful. But it still will be useful for the other things it does. The fact you can negate fear and charm effects with the same thing that you already have that is useful, with no additional cost for doing so, and without having to prepare spells that you probably won't use most of the time, will prove invaluable, however. Consider that most clerics have to choose whether to prepare the spells you mentioned or not. Most of the time, if they prepare them "just in case," they will find that they're clogging up their spells prepared list, and not useful. However, when they're useful, they're crucial, because those effects are nasty, especially at tier 1.

So, a cleric who isn't a Twilight has to choose to either not prepare the spells to deal with fear and charm unless he has advanced warning that they probably will be useful, and thus have two more spells prepared that he is more likely to use that day, but risk having an unexpected fear or charm effect whammy the party royally; or he has to choose to prepare those two spells, which he won't use most of the time, all of the time, cluttering up his spell preparation list for those "just in case" moments.

The Twilight Cleric has a feature to deal with them. Now, under normal class design paradigms, this would be fine, or even a little on the weak side, since it'd be situational (like the named spells), and thus be a subclass choice - an investment - that only pays off as often as preparing those spells would. But the Twilight Cleric's ability to deal with those is almost a ribbon on the main ability. The main ability is useful literally every combat, and also has a situational side benefit if it happens to come up. The Twilight Cleric doesn't have to give up anything to be nearly perfectly prepared, at least as well as the cleric who has the spells in his spells prepared list.

I still don't see that as a problem. Life clerics heal better than other clerics. Light clerics blast better than other clerics. Forge clerics engage in melee combat better than other clerics. A Domain is supposed to be a perk.

The 300 ft darkvision I grant is an issue. I've thought it was a typo that would've been errata by now, such as it should have read 30 ft or ret-con to 60 ft per normal darkvision, if you already have darkvision add 30 ft to the range.

[Segev]

I still don't see that as a problem. Life clerics heal better than other clerics. Light clerics blast better than other clerics. Forge clerics engage in melee combat better than other clerics. A Domain is supposed to be a perk.

The 300 ft darkvision I grant is an issue. I've thought it was a typo that would've been errata by now, such as it should have read 30 ft or ret-con to 60 ft per normal darkvision, if you already have darkvision add 30 ft to the range.

I agree that domains are supposed to be perks. If the charm/fear removal were it's "thing" and it didn't also grant oodles of temp hp over the course of 1-2 combats per short rest, it would probably be about right. Maybe need some small ribbon (like the dim light aura that both allows you to see and also could arguably make it easier for rogues to hide) to top it off.

Twilight Cleric... I understand liking it. And I am not going to claim it's the most broken thing ever. But it does strike me as a domain that somebody asked himself, "Okay, what do I want to be able to buff in every adventuring party?" and made a wishlist, and then just jammed it all in. And came up with flavor to link it together as anything but "The Adventurer Domain" afterwards. It's not that any specific thing it gets is overpowered by itself. Or that it has too many abilities per level/feature. It's that where most domains would have an A-list feature and a couple B-list features, and maybe a ribbon or two, this has 3+ A-list features and then has B-list features as ribbons.

[Dr.Samurai]

I agree that domains are supposed to be perks. If the charm/fear removal were it's "thing" and it didn't also grant oodles of temp hp over the course of 1-2 combats per short rest, it would probably be about right. Maybe need some small ribbon (like the dim light aura that both allows you to see and also could arguably make it easier for rogues to hide) to top it off.

Twilight Cleric... I understand liking it. And I am not going to claim it's the most broken thing ever. But it does strike me as a domain that somebody asked himself, "Okay, what do I want to be able to buff in every adventuring party?" and made a wishlist, and then just jammed it all in. And came up with flavor to link it together as anything but "The Adventurer Domain" afterwards. It's not that any specific thing it gets is overpowered by itself. Or that it has too many abilities per level/feature. It's that where most domains would have an A-list feature and a couple B-list features, and maybe a ribbon or two, this has 3+ A-list features and then has B-list features as ribbons.
This is a great way of putting it.

I agree that when I think of Twilight, I don't necessarily think of:

- Martial Weapons
- Heavy Armor
- Initiative Boost
- Loads of THP
- Immunity to Fear/Charm
- Fly Speed
- Superior Darkvision for entire party
- AC buff

It really is just a grab-bag of "things that will be useful for adventurers".

[MrStabby]

I agree that domains are supposed to be perks. If the charm/fear removal were it's "thing" and it didn't also grant oodles of temp hp over the course of 1-2 combats per short rest, it would probably be about right. Maybe need some small ribbon (like the dim light aura that both allows you to see and also could arguably make it easier for rogues to hide) to top it off.

Twilight Cleric... I understand liking it. And I am not going to claim it's the most broken thing ever. But it does strike me as a domain that somebody asked himself, "Okay, what do I want to be able to buff in every adventuring party?" and made a wishlist, and then just jammed it all in. And came up with flavor to link it together as anything but "The Adventurer Domain" afterwards. It's not that any specific thing it gets is overpowered by itself. Or that it has too many abilities per level/feature. It's that where most domains would have an A-list feature and a couple B-list features, and maybe a ribbon or two, this has 3+ A-list features and then has B-list features as ribbons.

I may have a different interpretation of "perks" to others, but I see a domain as more than that.

For a fighter, the archetype is important, but there are other really big distinctons in play style. A fighter with a bow and sharpshooter will play more differently from a fighter with great weapon mastery than it will froma ranger with a bow. For clerics the opprtunity to diffentiate themselves by other means is smaller. At 1 attack per turn you weapon of choice has less impact, your other feat options will tend to be a bit more situational and subtle than changing what you do on 90% of your turns in combat.

I think a domain is also a bigger deal from an RP perspecive - it is the mechanical manifestation of the choice you made in your god. It should kind of be a big deal. I think that the channel divinities are a really good part of the class design for this - abilities that are numberous enough and niche enough that you can use them every time you feel there is a benefit. Honestly, I would have liked it if each domain god additional types of use from their CD to help reinforce this; I think it would add to the flavour. I think domains should be really important and are really important.

On the other hand the twighlight one is not just too good, but also too generic. It doesn't feel like a special thing you do when you use it and at twice per short rest for most of the game its kind of a big deal.

[LudicSavant]

The temporary hit points I grant is very nice, but it means remaining in Fireball formation.

No, you don't need to stay in Fireball formation.

First thing, the area is far larger than a Fireball.

Second thing, you don't lose the temporary hit points if you leave the area. You only have to pop into the area if you want to refresh the temp HP (or clear an effect causing charm/fear) at the end of your turn. Unlike Heroism or Calm Emotions, it actually removes such conditions (and the effect that caused them, too), instead of simply suppressing them while you Concentrate (the CD, of course, doesn't require Concentration at all).

Third thing, you don't even lose it if the duration ends. In fact, it's entirely valid to pre-cast hours before you even have a fight (heck, the temp HP won't even go away if you short rest and get the CD back). While this wouldn't give you the round-by-round refresh, it would save you an in-combat action and provide you a benefit greater than the entire Inspiring Leader feat! And you'd have no formation or action economy requirements at all.

Side note: If you're curious how common Charm/Fear effects are, over 400 published monster stat blocks use them. And they include some of the nastier effects in the game (especially charms).

[Segev]

This is a great way of putting it.

I agree that when I think of Twilight, I don't necessarily think of:

- Martial Weapons
- Heavy Armor
- Initiative Boost
- Loads of THP
- Immunity to Fear/Charm
- Fly Speed
- Superior Darkvision for entire party
- AC buff

It really is just a grab-bag of "things that will be useful for adventurers".Precisely; I agree wholeheartedly.


I may have a different interpretation of "perks" to others, but I see a domain as more than that.

For a fighter, the archetype is important, but there are other really big distinctons in play style. A fighter with a bow and sharpshooter will play more differently from a fighter with great weapon mastery than it will froma ranger with a bow. For clerics the opprtunity to diffentiate themselves by other means is smaller. At 1 attack per turn you weapon of choice has less impact, your other feat options will tend to be a bit more situational and subtle than changing what you do on 90% of your turns in combat.

I think a domain is also a bigger deal from an RP perspecive - it is the mechanical manifestation of the choice you made in your god. It should kind of be a big deal. I think that the channel divinities are a really good part of the class design for this - abilities that are numberous enough and niche enough that you can use them every time you feel there is a benefit. Honestly, I would have liked it if each domain god additional types of use from their CD to help reinforce this; I think it would add to the flavour. I think domains should be really important and are really important.Oh, I agree. I was only talking about its mechanics. I was understanding "perks" to mean "it does something useful, actually worth caring about having."


On the other hand the twighlight one is not just too good, but also too generic. It doesn't feel like a special thing you do when you use it and at twice per short rest for most of the game its kind of a big deal.I mean, it feels special, I suppose, and the fact that it sheds "twilight" is flavorful, but yes, the rest is just too generic. It's "let's paint it twilight hues" applied to generically good - too good in aggregate - features. This would be somewhat forgivable if they really leaned into one particular excuse and themed around it. "Twilight is soothing" works for it having the suppression of charm/fear, or even the removal, though if that's what it's doing, it probably should be the primary or even only non-ribbon thing it's doing. And, as MrStabby notes, what's all this got to do wtih martial weapons, heavy armor, and initiative bonuses?

All of which is to fervently agree that Twilight is "too much" and "too generic." Again: nothing individually is a huge problem. It's just...too much of everything, everywhere, all at once. (Which is a surprisingly good movie, incidentally.)

[Zirconia]

I was in a group with a Grave Cleric from 1-10, and I recall only half a dozen times total when any of their domain features got used. Maybe our DM was too nice, but we just didn't have people dropping all that often, which is what a lot of the features key off of.

I agree with others that the abilities are very reactive to specific situations, most other domains have at least a few features you can build tactics around for either the cleric or the party or both.

[MrStabby]

I mean, it feels special, I suppose, and the fact that it sheds "twilight" is flavorful, but yes, the rest is just too generic. It's "let's paint it twilight hues" applied to generically good - too good in aggregate - features. This would be somewhat forgivable if they really leaned into one particular excuse and themed around it. "Twilight is soothing" works for it having the suppression of charm/fear, or even the removal, though if that's what it's doing, it probably should be the primary or even only non-ribbon thing it's doing. And, as MrStabby notes, what's all this got to do wtih martial weapons, heavy armor, and initiative bonuses?

All of which is to fervently agree that Twilight is "too much" and "too generic." Again: nothing individually is a huge problem. It's just...too much of everything, everywhere, all at once. (Which is a surprisingly good movie, incidentally.)

I do have a bit of trouble articulating my views on the Twilight cleric. I think it seems like a slighly mislabled wonderfully thematic cleric... that also has some really jarring abilitis added.

My initial take is that this is almost the cleric of the Hestia, of the campfire, of the household gods. It is the cleric of the home and of the shelter and where you rest at night with a bit of a "night watchman" added. Think about defending your home from things that go bump in the night night as a theme. I think these carry most of the thematic weight of the class (and if you ignore the egregious power creep) do so quite well.

A bit of a night time theme works. A bit of a protection theme works. A sense of security... I think there is a cool thematic core. The problem is that there isn't really enough in the absolute core so slightly broader elements get added in around light/dark/night time.

The spell list works well for the theme... with a couple of oddities. Sleep... OK I get the night time and sleeping and stuff, but in this context sleep should be more like catnap, focussed on party members. Greater invisability and mislead? These seem a stretch but it still seems like there is a theme here that I am just not getting. Faerie fire, see invisability all spek to the night watchman element, leomund's tiny hut and circle of power covers a nice homely "protected area" feel. The aura of vitality and aura of life are less perfectly aligned but still kind of cover the protected area reasonably well.

The martial weapons and heavy armour bit seems weird.

Eyes of night covers the night watchman element again - seems well suited for something like a priest of Helm. Likewise with Vigilant blessing.

Twilight Sanctuary really works for me thematically. Another aura of protection. Being able to dispell fear and to bring the feeling of security of the hearth and home seems right... eliminating charm just doesn't quite fit in the same way.

Steps of night is a funny one. I used to see this doman as a bit of a wichcraft domain and this seemed a good fit. Now, I think it is the the class getting too broad. It just seems like the ability has "of night" added to the end to cover up the fact that it has little mechanical connection to the rest of the class. This is now the ability that breaks the theme hardest for me. As a witchcraft domain (as I used to see it) it was the heavy armour and martial weapons.

Divine strike doing radiant - sure, a good damage type against "things of the night".

Twilight Shroud just upgrades your sanctuary area - again thematically fine.


I think that Twilight domain pretty closely fits a lot of different ideas but there is always at least one really odd ability that doesn't seem to fit the theme and just sticks out really weirdly. I with it had been released in a bit of a toned down way as I really like what it has to offer overall.