Why don't Cantrips include the Spellcasting Ability Mod to Damage?

[Asmotherion]

This is something I can't understand. It wouldn't make much of a differance. I just made this thread to see who agrees and hopefully to see it fixed in the speculated next edition (5.5e? 6e? who knows...?).

[KorvinStarmast]

Why don't Cantrips include the Spellcasting Ability Mod to Damage? Because they don't need it.

[BRC]

for a few reasons
1) They're supposed to be weaker than an equivalent Martial attack.

If a Martial DPR is 1x, A caster is, in theory, vaciliating round-by-round between using spell slots (2X), and using cantrips (.5X).


2) Because Cantrips are primarily modeled as Spells, and Spells, as a general rule, don't apply ability mod to damage.

[stoutstien]

They already scale via level so there's no reason to add it. I better question is why don't weapons get additional damage dice as you progress.

[Telok]

Celestial warlock, add cha to sacred flame. No problems & really only noticable on radiant damage vulnerable enemies.

[RSP]

Agree it’s not needed for reasons posted above, and add that giving the +Mod to damage is a nice perk for certain subclasses, like the Dragon Sorc.

[SharkForce]

spellcasters tend to be extremely skilled at a wide variety of tasks. they are bad at dealing consistent single-target damage by design because if they are good at doing that as well, what's the point in bringing along some chump who is good at doing damage but not particularly exceptional in other areas? if you can have someone who is good at dealing damage who is also able to teleport all over the planet, mind control enemies into being allies, turn a single extremely challenging battle into two easy ones, enable the party to fly or turn invisible, tunnel through mazes, transform a nearly-dead ally into a t-rex with full health and capable of dealing plenty of damage.... well, what does the guy who is only good at damage do to justify their place in the party?

leaving cantrips without ability mod to damage leaves room for the "damage" spellcasters to do more damage than others without having to worry too much about them pulling ahead of classes that specialize in damage-dealing in their area of specialty. extreme cases (a sorcerer/warlock who spends a lot of their resources on spamming eldritch blast twice a round all day, for example) can already pull ahead of many unoptimized damage-dealing characters as it is.

[Nefariis]

They already scale via level so there's no reason to add it. I better question is why don't weapons get additional damage dice as you progress.

I actually like this idea quite a bit.

Everyone gets one attack - then, like casters, martials could be 1/3, 1/2, or full "martial" in their progression of scaling damage.

It certainly would speed up combat quite a bit.

[MoiMagnus]

They already scale via level so there's no reason to add it. I better question is why don't weapons get additional damage dice as you progress.

For the fighter: because they get more attacks instead, and that's basically the same (better during your turn as you get your modifier twice, worse for attacks of opportunity and other similar effects like haste as they don't work with it). Though they get them at level 5/11/20 instead of 5/11/17 of cantrip upgrades, which I guess is because they didn't have any idea for a level 20 ability so they just delayed the extra attack.

For the other martial classes: well, they get an additional attack at level 5, but then they get scammed in Tier 3 and Tier 4 on this front.

For multiclassed characters: multiclassing is an afterthought in 5e design, so it's not a surprise that extra attack is based on class level while cantrip upgrade is based on character level, but that's still bad design.

[stoutstien]

For the fighter: because they get more attacks instead, and that's basically the same (better during your turn as you get your modifier twice, worse for attacks of opportunity and other similar effects like haste as they don't work with it). Though they get them at level 5/11/20 instead of 5/11/17 of cantrip upgrades, which I guess is because they didn't have any idea for a level 20 ability so they just delayed the extra attack.

For the other martial classes: well, they get an additional attack at level 5, but then they get scammed in Tier 3 and Tier 4 on this front.

For multiclassed characters: multiclassing is an afterthought in 5e design, so it's not a surprise that extra attack is based on class level while cantrip upgrade is based on character level, but that's still bad design.

Oh i understand the design intent I just think if anyone should get some extra damage tacked on it should be those who are generally limited to that as a primary form of addressing challenges and dice are swingy compared to modifiers but they generally work better with multiple attacks compared to static bonuses.
Also if we are assuming a base game with limited optional rules then most PCs will max their attack/damage mod really early. Just a bad feel as you progress.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've been looking at this quite a lot recently (because cantrips are easy to model for my RED project (https://admiralbenbo.org/red-calculator/calculator.html). As it turns out, just about everyone who is expected to cast cantrips often does get ability mod to cantrips at higher levels, at least to some degree.
* Warlocks get AB usually at level 2. And note that EB seems to be designed around that--EB + AB works because it's separate beams. EB + AB (no hex) ends up at ~0.9 RED averaged over levels, with weakness early on.
* Evocation wizards get it at level 10. That's one I don't have modeled yet, so I can't say how much of a difference it makes. But overall, unlikely to be much (cf clerics)
* Clerics either get a boost to cantrips or to weapon attacks (or both, with Tasha's) that adds up to basically WIS-mod. This comes online at level 6 but isn't all that potent[1].
* Dragon sorcerers get a boost to one damage-type of cantrips at level 6. Others don't, to be sure, but generally sorcerers can combine a cantrip with another spell via quicken.
* The blade cantrips get it automatically as part of the weapon attack.
* Nobody else really depends on cantrips for damage.

But the difference it makes is small. That's because pretty soon, full-casters other than warlocks have enough slots to be casting leveled spells just about every single round, assuming a "normal" adventuring day of ~15-20 rounds.

So the only people really feeling anything are non-dragon sorcerers who mostly spam damage cantrips. Which is already leaving so much on the table as to be laughable in a DPR sense.

[1] Clerics who do nothing but spam sacred flame do ~0.5 RED even with Potent Spellcasting. Without it, they'd do a bit less. In fact, clerics who spam sacred flame AND have 100% uptime on spiritual weapon only do 0.85 RED, with a small spike above 1.0 RED around level 6. And Blessed Strikes is basically identical in overall effect.

[Pex]

[1] Clerics who do nothing but spam sacred flame do ~0.5 RED even with Potent Spellcasting. Without it, they'd do a bit less. In fact, clerics who spam sacred flame AND have 100% uptime on spiritual weapon only do 0.85 RED, with a small spike above 1.0 RED around level 6. And Blessed Strikes is basically identical in overall effect.

Nitpick: Clerics get this at level 8

[JackPhoenix]

They already scale via level so there's no reason to add it. I better question is why don't weapons get additional damage dice as you progress.

Because 4e did that, and we can't have what 4e had in 5e, can we?

[Boci]

Because 4e did that, and we can't have what 4e had in 5e, can we?

I get that this is probably a joke, but in the sake fiarness for others if not you: in feywild and shadow fell I believe, warlock being a core class that chooses between 3 pacts, fiend, fey or great old one, full healing from a long rest, healing surges/hitdie, no racial penalty to stat, and that's just what I can name off the top of my head.

[stoutstien]

Because 4e did that, and we can't have what 4e had in 5e, can we?

Eh. Stick it on the weapons themselves and the 4e haters would never notice it lol.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Nitpick: Clerics get this at level 8

Oops. Working off the cuff here. And I have it wrong on my project data, coming in at level 5 there. Derp. Thanks for reminding me.

[olskool]

They already scale via level so there's no reason to add it. I better question is why don't weapons get additional damage dice as you progress.

I actually do this. I allow multiple attacks to be used either AS multiple rolls To Hit, or you can use one or more of your multiple attacks to add Damage Dice plus any appropriate damage adds to a single massive power attack. Martials with three or more attacks can add dice to one or more attacks and then use any remaining attacks to go after additional opponents. The choice is up to the PLAYER.

My friend adds an additional Damage Die each time the Martial's Proficiency bonus increases.

[DarknessEternal]

So they could make it tax feature tax instead of good design.

[Dienekes]

Because a mage's consistent by round damage is supposed to be significantly lower than a martial.

The one exception is the Warlock, because the Warlock was originally designed to be the simple caster who was supposed to just spam their attack damage cantrip every round and use their spells as a sprinkle of flavor as opposed to their primary means of engaging in a combat. It's why from levels 1 through 9 the Warlock averages out at most to 1 actual spell per encounter (assuming the 2-3 encounters per Short Rest) while everyone else surpasses that by level 5.

[KorvinStarmast]

Because a mage's consistent by round damage is supposed to be significantly lower than a martial.

The one exception is the Warlock, because the Warlock was originally designed to be the simple caster who was supposed to just spam their attack damage cantrip every round and use their spells as a sprinkle of flavor as opposed to their primary means of engaging in a combat. It's why from levels 1 through 9 the Warlock averages out at most to 1 actual spell per encounter (assuming the 2-3 encounters per Short Rest) while everyone else surpasses that by level 5. That's a pretty good summary, so I'm stealing it for future reference. :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

This is something I can't understand. It wouldn't make much of a differance.

It would make much of a difference, though.

That would make Cantrips as good as martials' basic attacks in term of damage, but with more versatile damage types and ways of affecting enemies.


hopefully to see it fixed in the speculated next edition

Changing that would not be a fix.

[Psyren]

giving the +Mod to damage is a nice perk for certain subclasses

This one. If every caster could do it, subclasses like Evoker and features like Potent Spellcasting wouldn't be special.

This also extends to subclasses that get +1d8 to their cantrips, which averages out to slightly less (+4.5 instead of +5) but serves a similar purpose.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It would make much of a difference, though.

That would make Cantrips as good as martials' basic attacks in term of damage, but with more versatile damage types and ways of affecting enemies.


It actually doesn't make that much difference beyond tier 1. Unless the cantrips were also like EB and got more attacks instead of more dice. Because 4d10+5 =/= 4*(1d10 + 5). It's basically half as much. And most of them already get ability mod to cantrip damage at later levels.

I do agree that they don't need it.

[Jervis]

I actually like this idea quite a bit.

Everyone gets one attack - then, like casters, martials could be 1/3, 1/2, or full "martial" in their progression of scaling damage.

It certainly would speed up combat quite a bit.

I’d actually like to see a “powerful blow” action in 5e that adds an extra d8 at 5, 11, and 17. Make it mutually exclusive to the attack action and it becomes a situational damage buff for multiclass characters. Granted it would be a rogue and cleric buff but that’s not terrible. That said you’re basically just turning BB into a action instead of a cantrip at that point.


This one. If every caster could do it, subclasses like Evoker and features like Potent Spellcasting wouldn't be special.

This also extends to subclasses that get +1d8 to their cantrips, which averages out to slightly less (+4.5 instead of +5) but serves a similar purpose.

Only issue I have to that is that those are usually trap options unless you have some other damage addition. They’re not bad mind you but cantrips are usually pretty bad on the DPR side, obviously exceptions like EB and the occasional BB build being the exception. Being less bad at something doesn’t make for the best subclass feature. Granted damage cantrips mostly exist so you have something to do to finish off stragglers or when you run out of spell slots but that’s beside the point.