Wolf Coin: A Dresden Files Mafia Game

[Batcathat]

https://i.postimg.cc/qqnhTCNW/DFlogo-3.png
The White Council of Wizards have gathered at their Edinburgh headquarters. An ordinary day, this would mostly entail loud disagreements in Latin. Today, there will be slightly more murder, betrayl and possible ends to the Laws of Magic than usual.

According to supposedly reliable sources, the impregnable castle has been infiltrated by the Order of the Blackened Denarius. They have sent a few of their coins – each containing a fallen angel – to trusted members of the White Council. Some of them fell to temptation, others were simply worn down, but in the end all of them fell under the Fallen's control and set out to infiltrate the White Council. After learning of the Denarians' plan, the Senior Council declared martial law and tasked the Wardens with executing anyone suspected of carrying one of the fallen angels.

In response, the Denarians appear to have decided that if they cannot control the White Council – they might as well destroy it, and the first to die was none other than the (in)famous Wizard of Chicago.



Batcathat has died, they were Harry Dresden.

You are Harry Dresden, a Wizard of the White Council and Private Investigator.

Every night you are alive, a building will catch on fire. It's probably not your fault.

No Denarius was found on the body.



No posting until I have officially started Day 1, please.

[Batcathat]

Day 1 has started

It will end 6 pm (European Central Time) on Saturday

(That is a little less than 49 hours as of this post)

[flat_footed]

Rogan for failing his will save.

Players:

flat_footed
Valmark
AvatarVecna
bladescape
Xumtiil
gac3
Book Wombat
Snowblaze
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Farmerbink
Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape
Togo
Rogan

[AvatarVecna]

Names in alphabetical order cuz otherwise it'll bother me.

AvatarVecna
bladescape
Book Wombat
CaoimhinTheCape
Farmerbink
flat_footed
gac3
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Rogan
Snowblaze
Togo
Valmark
Xumtiil
Zelphas

[Batcathat]

Oh yeah, I should've included a player list shouldn't I? I'd do it now, but it seems a little unnecessary when there are already two of them. :smallredface:

For their trouble, flat and AV get 20 batbucks each (they can be redeemed for any item in the Unfindable Gift Shop of Doom).

[Rogan]

Rogan for failing his will save.


I should return the favor for using forbidden magic on me, but AV was faster.
Plus, I think you should bold the vote.

Now, can I convince anybody to sign up for a Book Wombat wagon?

[gac3]

I should return the favor for using forbidden magic on me, but AV was faster.
Plus, I think you should bold the vote.

Now, can I convince anybody to sign up for a Book Wombat wagon?

Honestly yeah. I've been planning to start with Book Wombat. So even though I'm not a fan of a wagon with a only three total votes, I'm in to try one. Now to go open my role PM.

[bladescape]

Snowblaze

Try..... 4? 5?

I don't even remember anymore

[gac3]

I missed that flat posted somehow. Correct that to four total.

[Snowblaze]

We already have a wagon, so I'll OMGUS bladescape. Just give up, it's easier.

Also my activity will be pretty intermittent for the next couple of RL days but I should be able to dig into things starting D2 if I'm alive.

[JeenLeen]

There's a wagon already on one quiet player, so I'll add a second vote on flat_footed to see if both get talking.


Every night you are alive, a building will catch on fire. It's probably not your fault.

So, if a building burns down N1, let's consider if we should kill the narrator in case of a bastard play.
Or... since no Denarius, does this mean the Narrator might be a secret townie instead of a secret wolf/serial killer and we shouldn't kill them. Eh, hopefully no night fires and we don't have to care.

- - - Updated - - -

On my activity level: my wife's going out of town Friday through Monday, and it's me and the kids, so I will be online relatively little this weekend. Should be able to be on Friday afternoon and Monday afternoon, and check in nights if the baby goes to sleep without mama. (It's his first time away from her, so... might will be rough.)

[Zelphas]

Oof, Dresden dead immediately. Well, that will make things calmer... maybe.

The random d15 roll landed on 4, so according to the first player list posted that's bladescape. This is, of course, subject to change.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

I'll join in on voting flat_footed


Vote Count
Rogan: flat_footed, JeenLeen
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Zelphas
bladescape: Snowblaze

No Vote: Book Wombat, Valmark, Xumtiil, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Togo

[gac3]

Idk if two votes counts as a wagon but if so, four wagons already. Wow.

[Snowblaze]

Zelphas is voting bladescape, not me.

And I'm fairly sure BCH isn't as bastard a narrator as AV.

- - - Updated - - -

And Jeen is voting flat.

[gac3]

I'll join in on voting flat_footed


Vote Count
Rogan: flat_footed, JeenLeen
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Zelphas
bladescape: Snowblaze

No Vote: Book Wombat, Valmark, Xumtiil, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Togo

Um... Jeen is voting flat. Innocent mistake or suspicious suspicion? I'm watching you Kevin

(Probably just an innocent mistake but I wanted to say Kevin)

- - - Updated - - -


Zelphas is voting bladescape, not me.

And I'm fairly sure BCH isn't as bastard a narrator as AV.

- - - Updated - - -

And Jeen is voting flat.

Make no assumptions. Bat is sketchy.

Also ninja'd.

[Metastachydium]

if I'm alive.

Ah! Snowblaze. What a pleasant, nay: lovely surprise it is to find you here, and in good health, even. Now, if I may have but a minute of your time, please do allow me to reminisce for a moment. The two of us, we have some business that, while not unfinished, was resolved in a manner I found thoroughly unsatisfying at the time. You might not remember much of it: it happened long ago, after all. But, you see, I am anything but forgetful. You used me. You abused my gift.

Back then, I gave my life to frustrate your efforts. This time around, on the other hand, I am not in what you could describe as a giving mood. Instead I shall take something. Something that is dear to you. And then, well, then and only then all shall be, if not forgiven, at the very least forgotten. So smile! Great things are to come. Great things indeed!

[flat_footed]

There's a wagon already on one quiet player, so I'll add a second vote on flat_footed to see if both get talking.



So, if a building burns down N1, let's consider if we should kill the narrator in case of a bastard play.
Or... since no Denarius, does this mean the Narrator might be a secret townie instead of a secret wolf/serial killer and we shouldn't kill them. Eh, hopefully no night fires and we don't have to care.

- - - Updated - - -

On my activity level: my wife's going out of town Friday through Monday, and it's me and the kids, so I will be online relatively little this weekend. Should be able to be on Friday afternoon and Monday afternoon, and check in nights if the baby goes to sleep without mama. (It's his first time away from her, so... might will be rough.)

Hey now, I've officially posted twice as many times as you have.

[Snowblaze]

Ah! Snowblaze. What a pleasant, nay: lovely surprise it is to find you here, and in good health, even. Now, if I may have but a minute of your time, please do allow me to reminisce for a moment. The two of us, we have some business that, while not unfinished, was resolved in a manner I found thoroughly unsatisfying at the time. You might not remember much of it: it happened long ago, after all. But, you see, I am anything but forgetful. You used me. You abused my gift.

Back then, I gave my life to frustrate your efforts. This time around, on the other hand, I am not in what you could describe as a giving mood. Instead I shall take something. Something that is dear to you. And then, well, then and only then all shall be, if not forgiven, at the very least forgotten. So smile! Great things are to come. Great things indeed!

I also regret the way those events ended. Though not sufficiently that I will simply allow you to take what is mine. You want your revenge? Fight for it. You will lose.

(Sorry if that was a Dresden Files speech; I haven't read them so can't give a suitable response.)

(Context: town!Meta gave a consensus-townread wolf!me permanent nightkill immunity and since I then became immune to the lynch he had to die to kill me.)

[Farmerbink]

*Twiddles thumbs awkwardly*

A hand, clad in black leather appears from the long sleeve of his heavy robes.

*Points at flat_footed*

[Snowblaze]

Accurate (hopefully) vote count:
flat_footed 4: AvatarVecna, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
bladescape 2: Snowblaze, Zelphas
Snowblaze 2: bladescape, Metastachydium
Book Wombat 2: Rogan, gac3
Rogan 1: flat_footed
Yet to post: Book Wombat, Togo, Xumtiil, Valmark

Caoimhin, Farmerbink, reasons for your flat votes? (Also, Farmerbink, do you have a preferred nickname?)

[JeenLeen]

I'll join in on voting flat_footed


Vote Count
Rogan: flat_footed, JeenLeen
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Zelphas
bladescape: Snowblaze

No Vote: Book Wombat, Valmark, Xumtiil, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Togo


Um... Jeen is voting flat. Innocent mistake or suspicious suspicion? I'm watching you Kevin

(Probably just an innocent mistake but I wanted to say Kevin)

- - - Updated - - -



Make no assumptions. Bat is sketchy.

Also ninja'd.

Slight distancing between wolf!gac3 and wolf!Cao, or just gac3 innocently pointing out Cao's mistake. Which I admit does seem off for him, and the timestamps don't make it look like just a post was written while Cao was writing one.

The flat_footed wagon is a bit too big for my taste now for early D1 randomness, so I'll shift to CaoimhinTheCape

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Huh, I just got everything wrong didn't I?


Caoimhin, Farmerbink, reasons for your flat votes? (Also, Farmerbink, do you have a preferred nickname?)

I wanted to vote someone who already had a vote. Didn't want to vote Rogan since I helped push a mislynch on him Day 1 last game, didn't vote Snowblaze for saying she'd be away for a good amount of Day 1, wanted to give Book a chance to post (and I feel like pressure votes on Book haven't helped too much in the past), and just didn't feel like voting for blade.



Vote Count
Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book Wombat: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Zelphas, Snowblaze
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen

No Vote: Book Wombat, Valmark, Xumtiil, Togo

[flat_footed]

Book Wombat

Just a placeholder until more discussion and BW deigns to contribute.

[Book Wombat]

I am here!
And the die rolls for Metastache (name somehow reminds me of a mustache, is it just me?).

[flat_footed]

I am here!
And the die rolls for Metastache (name somehow reminds me of a mustache, is it just me?).

Well, let's see if I can summon someone else.

Xumtiil, I choose you!

[Farmerbink]

Caoimhin, Farmerbink, reasons for your flat votes? (Also, Farmerbink, do you have a preferred nickname?)

The cowled figure nods, his expression completely hidden by the broad hood of his cloak. A nearly imperceptible chuckle billows from beneath the folds of the robe.

[JeenLeen]

The cowled figure nods, his expression completely hidden by the broad hood of his cloak. A nearly imperceptible chuckle billows from beneath the folds of the robe.

The non-answer of this answer (though excellent roleplaying) makes me suspicious that perhaps Farmerbink is wolf and his scumbuddies told him how we don't lynch new players D1 without really good reason. (Or at least such was the metagame when I stopped playing about a year ago, and I assume it's the same now that I've resumed games.) He could be staying quiet to give no info to us, while essentially being shielded from a lynch.

On the other hand, there being almost no reason makes sense D1 (as none of us have any info), and I can see someone wanting to create a high-count wagon to see how folk react and to get real discussion going early on. Though it seems odd not to admit such.
So not really sure how to take this.

If flat_footed flips wolf, then Farmerbink is probably town. Even though it's possible votes will shift a lot, I don't see a wolf putting a 4th vote on a wolf in hopes that the wagon disspates before Day's end. And I do like deaths to yield some intel, which flat_footed's death might now actually do... still, not gonna shift my vote back to flat_footed (at least yet).

[Valmark]

Rogan for failing his will save.

Players:

flat_footed
Valmark
AvatarVecna
bladescape
Xumtiil
gac3
Book Wombat
Snowblaze
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Farmerbink
Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape
Togo
Rogan


Names in alphabetical order cuz otherwise it'll bother me.

AvatarVecna
bladescape
Book Wombat
CaoimhinTheCape
Farmerbink
flat_footed
gac3
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Rogan
Snowblaze
Togo
Valmark
Xumtiil
Zelphas

Valmark, then. Still at work so I'm basically just watching the funny colored words.

[JeenLeen]

Caoimhin, Farmerbink, reasons for your flat votes?

Snowblaze, thank you for asking this.
I could see a wolf asking a scumbuddy this, but I think one wouldn't draw attention. I lean town on Snowblaze if either of those flip wolf. But if they flip town, doesn't mean anything for Snowblaze's alignment: a wolf would be fine drawing suspicion on townies, and a townie could legitimately ask townies.

[Metastachydium]

I also regret the way those events ended. Though not sufficiently that I will simply allow you to take what is mine. You want your revenge? Fight for it. You will lose.

Hold onto that confidence. Make it your shield. You will need it. That much I can promise.


(Sorry if that was a Dresden Files speech; I haven't read them so can't give a suitable response.)

(Don't worry about that. I haven't read them either.)


(Context: town!Meta gave a consensus-townread wolf!me permanent nightkill immunity and since I then became immune to the lynch he had to die to kill me.)

(And I'm still salty about that, you magnificent bastard!)


Metastache

Hm. I wonder who that could be.

- - - Updated - - -


Snowblaze, thank you for asking this.
I could see a wolf asking a scumbuddy this, but I think one wouldn't draw attention. I lean town on Snowblaze if either of those flip wolf. But if they flip town, doesn't mean anything for Snowblaze's alignment: a wolf would be fine drawing suspicion on townies, and a townie could legitimately ask townies.

You do know we are talking about the Bus Driver of All Bus Drivers, now don't you?

[Xumtiil]

Well, let's see if I can summon someone else.

Xumtiil, I choose you!

Xumtiil used reflect. Flat_footed is voted instead!

[flat_footed]

Xumtiil used reflect. Flat_footed is voted instead!

https://media1.giphy.com/media/vhaj0GMFlIeFa/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b952e4e3881db78a6fb97f3e45250d9 83c6569faaf4a&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g

[gac3]

Man... I either need to read more Dresden or reread the three books I have read. I had to Google my character. Turns out I'm not a vampire I thought I was at first.

- - - Updated - - -

Also... Why is flat so popular?

- - - Updated - - -

Attempted vote count because I needed one. I went from Cape's last one. I did not make it from scratch. Also I caught myself writing the wrong name at least once. So might want to double check.

flat_footed (4): AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, Xumtiil
Book Wombat (2): Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze (2): bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape (2): Zelphas, Snowblaze
CaoimhinTheCape (1): JeenLeen
Metastache (1): Book Wombat
Xumtiil (1): flat-footed
Valmark (1): Valmark

No Vote: Togo

- - - Updated - - -

I kinda want to move to make a wagon competing with flat but I'm not sure anyone of the other wagons with at least two people look super appealing. None of the people I most want to kill are on there.

[Xumtiil]

To be honest I just voted flat because "NO U".

For the sake of having some discussion, let me tie up two wagons.

Hello Snowblaze my old friend, I've come to stalk to you again...

[gac3]

flat_footed (3): AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book Wombat (2): Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze (3): bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape (2): Zelphas, Snowblaze
CaoimhinTheCape (1): JeenLeen
Metastache (1): Book Wombat
Xumtiil (1): flat-footed
Valmark (1): Valmark

No Vote: Togo

Ah. That's better.

[bladescape]

I kinda want to move to make a wagon competing with flat but I'm not sure anyone of the other wagons with at least two people look super appealing. None of the people I most want to kill are on there.

"Who are those people?" The man in a cloak tugs nervously on the cloak as he asks, eyes darting around at the gathering. Most people hiding under cloaks, of course.

[Rogan]

Man... I either need to read more Dresden or reread the three books I have read. I had to Google my character. Turns out I'm not a vampire I thought I was at first.

- - - Updated - - -

Also... Why is flat so popular?

- - - Updated - - -

Attempted vote count because I needed one. I went from Cape's last one. I did not make it from scratch. Also I caught myself writing the wrong name at least once. So might want to double check.

flat_footed (4): AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, Xumtiil
Book Wombat (2): Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze (2): bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape (2): Zelphas, Snowblaze
CaoimhinTheCape (1): JeenLeen
Metastache (1): Book Wombat
Xumtiil (1): flat-footed
Valmark (1): Valmark

No Vote: Togo

- - - Updated - - -

I kinda want to move to make a wagon competing with flat but I'm not sure anyone of the other wagons with at least two people look super appealing. None of the people I most want to kill are on there.

Just out of curiosity, why did you stop after three books?

I might vote for flat, cause he used forbidden magic on me in recruitment. But a wagon so comparable big in such a limited time smells like town.

I didn't check everything on your count. Should have done this, but need to catch some sleep. All I can say is, my vote used to be correct. *

Oh, and I've got a question for you: Why do you want to kill certain people right now?

*I said used to be, cause I'm going to change it now.

Blades for multiple reasons. First and foremost for being the best counter wagon to flat right now, cause I don't want to vote for Snow when she won't be around to defend herself.
The other reason is revenge for last game :smalltongue:
Oh, plus a three way tie seems more fun than a two way tie. It is a three way tie right now, isn't it?

(Bookie can still die as far as I'm concerned. He's not playing anyway :smalltongue:)

[Xumtiil]

A three way tie, and now I'm supposed to not blink for 40ish hours. Curse you, Rogan, for finding my one weakness.

[gac3]

flat_footed (3): AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Snowblaze (3): bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape (3): Zelphas, Snowblaze Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape (1): JeenLeen
Metastache (1): Book Wombat
Xumtiil (1): flat-footed
Valmark (1): Valmark

No Vote: Togo

Crap... Now there is no book wagon. Let's try to get a 4 way tie! Book come join me to tie it up.

Update with my new vote:

CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Snowblaze (3): bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape (3): Zelphas, Snowblaze Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape (2): JeenLeen, gac3
Metastache (1): Book Wombat
Xumtiil (1): flat-footed
Valmark (1): Valmark

No Vote: Togo

Ah. That's better.


"Who are those people?" The man in a cloak tugs nervously on the cloak as he asks, eyes darting around at the gathering. Most people hiding under cloaks, of course.

The man straightens and in a holier than though voice says: "It's not my place to question the wisdom of my betters. I'm just the one here to do the killing." NOT A VIG CLAIM. Also, real answer below.


Just out of curiosity, why did you stop after three books?

I might vote for flat, cause he used forbidden magic on me in recruitment. But a wagon so comparable big in such a limited time smells like town.

I didn't check everything on your count. Should have done this, but need to catch some sleep. All I can say is, my vote used to be correct. *

Oh, and I've got a question for you: Why do you want to kill certain people right now?

*I said used to be, cause I'm going to change it now.

Blades for multiple reasons. First and foremost for being the best counter wagon to flat right now, cause I don't want to vote for Snow when she won't be around to defend herself.
The other reason is revenge for last game :smalltongue:
Oh, plus a three way tie seems more fun than a two way tie. It is a three way tie right now, isn't it?

(Bookie can still die as far as I'm concerned. He's not playing anyway :smalltongue:)

It wasn't really an active decision. I mainly use audible. So usually two book credits a month. One month new books in series I was more excited about came out and I just haven't gotten around to reading the rest of Dresden.

I have suspicions but they are minor and possibly unjustified as they are more instinct that logical analysis and often my instinct is wrong in these games. The people aren't wagon candidates right now so I'm not sure I want to go out of my way to state my suspicions just yet. I want to see if it continues as these people post or if it's just a bad first impression this game.

[Rogan]

A three way tie, and now I'm supposed to not blink for 40ish hours. Curse you, Rogan, for finding my one weakness.

Hah! Got you right in my magic circle! And now we can start to bargain. So, what do you offer for your freedom?


It wasn't really an active decision. I mainly use audible. So usually two book credits a month. One month new books in series I was more excited about came out and I just haven't gotten around to reading the rest of Dresden.

I have suspicions but they are minor and possibly unjustified as they are more instinct that logical analysis and often my instinct is wrong in these games. The people aren't wagon candidates right now so I'm not sure I want to go out of my way to state my suspicions just yet. I want to see if it continues as these people post or if it's just a bad first impression this game.

Ah, makes sense, thanks for sharing this.

Don't stress it, there's plenty of time left. Just don't forget your thoughts, cause I'd like to hear them later on. Takes a note to ask about this on Day 2, if it didn't came up till then

[Farmerbink]

The cowled figure coughs quietly. "Only a Denarian would point fingers when none are already pointing at him." As his deep voice fades, he adds as an afterthought. His gloved hand rises, and you get the impression he's rubbing his chin thoughtfully beneath the hood. "Or perhaps a particularly jumpy Warden..."

((and since no one knows anything, voting for the first person to vote seems as good a reason as any))

[gac3]

The cowled figure coughs quietly. "Only a Denarian would point fingers when none are already pointing at him." As his deep voice fades, he adds as an afterthought. His gloved hand rises, and you get the impression he's rubbing his chin thoughtfully beneath the hood. "Or perhaps a particularly jumpy Warden..."

((and since no one knows anything, voting for the first person to vote seems as good a reason as any))

"Wardens only jump when commanded. Watch your tone."

NGL, I had to stop and see if I was a warden and I think the answer is no? Really bad at remembering the details of this character. Really tempted to just ramble what details I know about my character but I'm sure to anyone with Google it would give it away.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

The non-answer of this answer (though excellent roleplaying) makes me suspicious that perhaps Farmerbink is wolf and his scumbuddies told him how we don't lynch new players D1 without really good reason. (Or at least such was the metagame when I stopped playing about a year ago, and I assume it's the same now that I've resumed games.) He could be staying quiet to give no info to us, while essentially being shielded from a lynch.

I don't get how this would be a strategy wolves would suggest? Even if we don't lynch new players on Day 1, it doesn't help with the rest of the game?



I watched part of the television series a long time ago but remember nothing, haven't read any books but I hear they're good. I'll get around to it someday, probably. But I don't think I'll RP.

Aside from that, nothing really more to comment on, though I'm curious as to gac's gut reads since my gut isn't giving me anything right now.




Vote Count
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Zelphas, Snowblaze, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen, gac3
Metastachydium: Book Wombat
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark

No Vote: Togo

[Snowblaze]

Morning. Guess I'm back to being a D1 wagon. What fun.

- don't think the incorrect vote counts are particularly suspicious of Caoimhin

- Farmerbink is a cryptic bastard, duly noted. I... think that's mildly towny since a new wolf would want to look more agreeable and helpful.

- Jeen's analysis of my question seems slightly hedgy/pockety. I vaguely liked their switching off flat_footed though.

- you ruthlessly bus a partner one time and they never let you live it down, do they? (Seriously, though, there's a pretty big difference between asking questions and bussing. Even though I wouldn't hesitate to do the former to a partner.)

- hello, Xumtiil. Screw you.

- I feel decent about Rogan but my confidence in that is roughly zero rn.

- would also like to hear gac's gut reads at some point.

So I have no wolfreads, unsurprisingly. Probably don't have time to properly get the game moving (she says at the end of a wallpost) so I'll just leave the tie intact and let someone else do it.

- - - Updated - - -

The wizard rolled her eyes at the hooded figure - wait, that wasn't a very good description given that nearly everyone hid themselves behind cloaks - the threats of the hooded figure with a grudge against her. That was better. Anyway, it would take a lot more than bluster and reminders of her own magnificent bastardry to scare her.

She noted with mild disappointment that her own cloak didn't do a particularly good job of concealing her identity, judging by the number of enemies she'd attracted already. Probably the accent.

Who needs setting knowledge to RP?

[Xumtiil]

- hello, Xumtiil. Screw you.


Love you too Snowblaze.

Also, you can't lose - either you survive, as usual, or you get to join Taffimai and Elenna in the dead chat for fun and games, like "find the sus" and "interpretative tunnelbuilding dance".

- - - Updated - - -


Hah! Got you right in my magic circle! And now we can start to bargain. So, what do you offer for your freedom?


You made one fatal mistake. Only AvatarVecna can force me to blink. :p

[Snowblaze]

Lol, I was just about to comment that I was surprised no-one had said anything while I was afk. Anyway, being tunnel buddies with Taffimai may be fun but I much prefer living. Got any wolfreads yet?

Might skim through some ISOs, see if I can dredge up some myself. We'll start with Togo:

There. That was easy. Utterly null.

- - - Updated - - -

AvatarVecna, Valmark and Book Wombat both have single posts, consisting of not much more than votes, and are hence all null. Also I'm realising page two may be a bit early for this, but...

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, I missed our last one-poster, Zelphas. The "subject to change" thing is giving me gut pings, but iirc I get gut pings from town!Zelphas so *shrug* nullish.

[Xumtiil]

Nothing worth noting. I have some suspicions, but they're very tenuous and I'd like to see a lot more conversations going before I start flinging mud at people.

If we do end up with a three or four-way tie that's all town, I expect to see very little movement or discussion, so we might need to start poking some other people to get a reaction from the Denarians.

Question for everyone: considering how many players we have and that it's a power heavy game, how many Denarians do you think we're dealing with here?

[Snowblaze]

Eh, at this point I think outing whatever suspicions you have is the most effective way of getting discussion moving.

And three or four. I'd go with three if I was narrating. Also depends on the number of neutrals we have. (We can have neutrals, right? I need to reread recruitment thread.)

[Xumtiil]

Neutrals weren't planned but were possible, if I remember correctly.

Also I'm operating under the assumption of four, and I'd agree with you but I can't tell you why I'm suspecting the people I'm suspecting and it's very likely to change between this and tomorrow. I promise you a reads list then.

[Snowblaze]

Neutrals are possible but not guaranteed. Also votes need to be bolded, apparently, so I'll just go and do that now. Pretty sure I saw other unbolded votes somewhere.

[Xumtiil]

To clarify, I can't tell you because I can't put my finger on it, not because I have secret info

[bladescape]

There's a wolf voting someone in this 3 way tie.

I can say for certain.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually wait the two wolf reads I have aren't even voting anyone in this 3way tie.

...

Huh.

- - - Updated - - -

Also 3 way ties are too amusing for me to actually care about my wolf reads, so make of that what you will.

[gac3]

Nothing worth noting. I have some suspicions, but they're very tenuous and I'd like to see a lot more conversations going before I start flinging mud at people.

If we do end up with a three or four-way tie that's all town, I expect to see very little movement or discussion, so we might need to start poking some other people to get a reaction from the Denarians.

Question for everyone: considering how many players we have and that it's a power heavy game, how many Denarians do you think we're dealing with here?

Does that mean wolves? I'm gonna Google what a denarian is... I keep seeing it and thinking of the game of thrones character

- - - Updated - - -


Neutrals are possible but not guaranteed. Also votes need to be bolded, apparently, so I'll just go and do that now. Pretty sure I saw other unbolded votes somewhere.

Oh I think mine isn't. I'll fix that. Also I don't think I crossed out my first vote.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

There's a wolf voting someone in this 3 way tie.

I can say for certain.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually wait the two wolf reads I have aren't even voting anyone in this 3way tie.

...

Huh.

- - - Updated - - -

Also 3 way ties are too amusing for me to actually care about my wolf reads, so make of that what you will.

I mean, 9/15 are voting in groups of 3 so like, a wolf in there makes sense.

But I don't see why you wouldn't vote a Wolf read? Like yeah, ties are fun but they're more fun when you get Wolves in the end? If you push enough it shouldn't be too hard to make another wagon with 3 people on it (I think we can manage 5 wagons of 3 people each?)

[Snowblaze]

bladescape remains his usual self, it seems. Toying with whether Caoimhin's response to that is wolfy but it's probably a stretch to say that. Caoimhin, who would you like to wagon?

Anyway. Since not much is happening, back to the ISOs. Meta has two posts, the entirety of which involve what I did in UPick. If I squint I could get to a wolflean for narrow focus + bringing up me bussing in a discussion about me asking questions, but he can have more time given current gamestate.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of bladescape, his three posts put him next on my list. I don't think any of them are particularly AI for him.

Rogan also has three posts; I thought there would be a couple more but he did say he'd be less active than normal. I think I like actively choosing to not vote flat, though that's of course invalid if the latter is a wolf (Rogan/flat partners world makes surface-level sense, I think.)

Asking flat to bold his vote in the same post as his own unbolded one is ironic but NAI.

...and this is why this is the first time I'm ISOing Rogan. Especially since I'm too tired to be doing this. Eh, should finish it...

bladescape vote is *shrug* fine in general. Another piece of evidence for my flat/Rogan theory, but also I don't particularly suspect either and pre-flip associatives are bad. I like the questioning gac, and my gut says that is a town!Rogan post.

(Also I am once again failing to not be around to defend myself. I will be away for a good portion of RL-tomorrow and probably miss EOD, though.)

Third post is largely NAI, I think. So overall a tentative, mostly gut-based townlean.

- - - Updated - - -

The last non-narrator three-poster is Farmerbink. Other than the thing I mentioned earlier about cryptic bastardry being mildly towny, nothing much AI.

[gac3]

Hmmm... Not sure I'll have time before eOD, but I think this weekend I might go through some old games to compare some behaviors. Will let you know if I find anything.

[AvatarVecna]

Initially thought flat hadn't posted much, but looking back over things, flat has a number of posts, they're just not substantial for the most part. Five posts, and three votes among them, and little substance to back those votes up (or indeed, substance of any other kind). Not even really complaining about their wagon or making a real push on someone else. Gut reaction is that I'd expect town!flat to have a bit more of a fire under them at this point to give town something worthwhile, and instead he's shutting up and posting funny gifs. That's NAGL.

[JeenLeen]

Initially thought flat hadn't posted much, but looking back over things, flat has a number of posts, they're just not substantial for the most part. Five posts, and three votes among them, and little substance to back those votes up (or indeed, substance of any other kind). Not even really complaining about their wagon or making a real push on someone else. Gut reaction is that I'd expect town!flat to have a bit more of a fire under them at this point to give town something worthwhile, and instead he's shutting up and posting funny gifs. That's NAGL.

On the other hand, it's also Not A Good Look (NAGL, right?) if someone is overly defensive or trying to save themselves. D1 is usually a townie lynched and little gained, so I could see Town!Flat_Footed accepting this is his game for a D1 lynch and being cool with it, especially if his power is mediocre.

If it was later in the game, I'd perhaps agree, but as is I'm not persuaded.
Again, flat_footed dying gives some info (although perhaps someone else on the wagon-tie would give more--haven't had time to think through it all) so I'm not opposed to his death. Hoping to read over discussion and see if I want to move my vote or not.

[Zelphas]

At this point, I should probably just roll with the fact that I always look at least a little suspicious in the first few days.

I don't have much strong leans on anyone this early; more roleplay than I've seen before, which is fun. None of the three wagons strike me particularly strongly in any direction, I'm afraid. I don't like posting equivocations, but I tend to post too infrequently, so I may as well get something down.

---

Narrowed eyes behind a black hood, watching the movements and arguments swirl in the Council. The prattling and posturing needs to get out of the way first; then they can maybe get to real work. The mouth behind the hood stays quiet for now.

[Rogan]

Rogan also has three posts; I thought there would be a couple more but he did say he'd be less active than normal. I think I like actively choosing to not vote flat, though that's of course invalid if the latter is a wolf (Rogan/flat partners world makes surface-level sense, I think.)

Asking flat to bold his vote in the same post as his own unbolded one is ironic but NAI.

...and this is why this is the first time I'm ISOing Rogan. Especially since I'm too tired to be doing this. Eh, should finish it...

bladescape vote is *shrug* fine in general. Another piece of evidence for my flat/Rogan theory, but also I don't particularly suspect either and pre-flip associatives are bad. I like the questioning gac, and my gut says that is a town!Rogan post.

(Also I am once again failing to not be around to defend myself. I will be away for a good portion of RL-tomorrow and probably miss EOD, though.)


I expected to get some more posts in tomorrow, don't worry.

Read the Edit comment of my vote post :smallwink:

If you feel the need to ask some questions, feel free to do so. I can't promise a quick response, but unless they down in a sudden flood of activity, I will answer.

Good luck or have fun or whatever is appropriate for your activities tomorrow. If it helps you, I am willing to defend you while you are away. At least from random / meme votes.



I think I've missed some posts I wanted to reply to. Will do when I'm finally at home.

I should also check the votes and prepare my own bookkeeping, just in case I'll need it.

Oh, and one important thing! I don't wear a coat, I've turned it in at the reception!

[AvatarVecna]

On the other hand, it's also Not A Good Look (NAGL, right?) if someone is overly defensive or trying to save themselves. D1 is usually a townie lynched and little gained, so I could see Town!Flat_Footed accepting this is his game for a D1 lynch and being cool with it, especially if his power is mediocre.

If it was later in the game, I'd perhaps agree, but as is I'm not persuaded.
Again, flat_footed dying gives some info (although perhaps someone else on the wagon-tie would give more--haven't had time to think through it all) so I'm not opposed to his death. Hoping to read over discussion and see if I want to move my vote or not.

Yeah that's what NAGL stands for. And you've got a point.

[Metastachydium]

Does that mean wolves? I'm gonna Google what a denarian is... I keep seeing it and thinking of the game of thrones character.

I mean, it's literally in the first post, several times over. It even has big pictures of big coins!


Initially thought flat hadn't posted much, but looking back over things, flat has a number of posts, they're just not substantial for the most part. Five posts, and three votes among them, and little substance to back those votes up (or indeed, substance of any other kind). Not even really complaining about their wagon or making a real push on someone else. Gut reaction is that I'd expect town!flat to have a bit more of a fire under them at this point to give town something worthwhile, and instead he's shutting up and posting funny gifs. That's NAGL.


On the other hand, it's also Not A Good Look (NAGL, right?) if someone is overly defensive or trying to save themselves. D1 is usually a townie lynched and little gained, so I could see Town!Flat_Footed accepting this is his game for a D1 lynch and being cool with it, especially if his power is mediocre.

If it was later in the game, I'd perhaps agree, but as is I'm not persuaded.
Again, flat_footed dying gives some info (although perhaps someone else on the wagon-tie would give more--haven't had time to think through it all) so I'm not opposed to his death. Hoping to read over discussion and see if I want to move my vote or not.


Yeah that's what NAGL stands for. And you've got a point.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with the rest of the assessment either. Half of those posts explicitly served to bait people into the discussion (i.e. their content is meaningful from a pragmatic (if not from a semantic) point of view), and it worked. Twice. It's nothing big, but nor is it nothing.

What I find more interesting is how rapidly flat accumulated all those votes, only one of which is of the OMGUS sort. I mean, I can get Book and especially Snow doing that. One of them is a pain to deal with and the other's a notable tall poppy and trying to kill her is something of a running joke. Am I missing something about flat? Is this also some meta stuff Meta just isn't aware of?


Anyway. Since not much is happening, back to the ISOs. Meta has two posts, the entirety of which involve what I did in UPick. If I squint I could get to a wolflean for narrow focus + bringing up me bussing in a discussion about me asking questions, but he can have more time given current gamestate.

Gimme a break. Day 1 talk might find some use a couple of days from now, but at this point naming names and pointing fingers beyond what's neccessary to kill someone ere the sun sets is something of an exercise in futility.


If it helps you, I am willing to defend you while you are away. At least from random / meme votes.

Different avatar, same old paladin, eh?


Oh, and one important thing! I don't wear a coat, I've turned it in at the reception!

Hm.

[gac3]

I mean, it's literally in the first post, several times over. It even has big pictures of big coins!



Yes! But to be fair, I for some reason just can't seemt o keep this lore straight. I keep thinking the white council is vampires for some reason. Do these books have a vampire faction that dresses in white or something?

[AvatarVecna]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with the rest of the assessment either. Half of those posts explicitly served to bait people into the discussion (i.e. their content is meaningful from a pragmatic (if not from a semantic) point of view), and it worked. Twice. It's nothing big, but nor is it nothing.

What I find more interesting is how rapidly flat accumulated all those votes, only one of which is of the OMGUS sort. I mean, I can get Book and especially Snow doing that. One of them is a pain to deal with and the other's a notable tall poppy and trying to kill her is something of a running joke. Am I missing something about flat? Is this also some meta stuff Meta just isn't aware of?

"Bait people into discussion" implies some kind of intent. You're giving flat waaaaaay too much credit for basically nothing.


Rogan for failing his will save.

Players:

flat_footed
Valmark
AvatarVecna
bladescape
Xumtiil
gac3
Book Wombat
Snowblaze
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Farmerbink
Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape
Togo
Rogan

Time: 5 minutes into D1.

Literally just a player list and a randvote. This doesn't tell us anything about flat's internal thoughts, nor does it provoke discussion.


Hey now, I've officially posted twice as many times as you have.

Time: 1 hour 36 minutes into D1.

This right here is the only post that betrays a bit of flat's internal thoughts, and it's purely about post-count. Not contribution, just the appearance of activity.


Book Wombat

Just a placeholder until more discussion and BW deigns to contribute.

Time: 2 hours 31 minutes into D1.


Well, let's see if I can summon someone else.

Xumtiil, I choose you!

Time: 3 hours 18 minutes into D1.


Half of those posts explicitly served to bait people into the discussion, and it worked.

That's not what this is. These posts aren't baiting people into discussion, they're randvotes on people who happen to have not managed to post yet, with their only excuse being "the game literally just started". You're acting like these people were flying under the radar and it's only thanks to FF's callout that we managed to trick them into participating at all, when the reality is that they were going to show up regardless of getting voted or not. These posts aren't provoking discussion. They're not pointing out inconsistent arguments, or asking questions to gain insight into the minds of the people they're pointed at, or even sharing flat's own thoughts about alignments, gamestate, or even just mechanics. It's literally just voting two people who happened to not be present right at the start of the game, with nothing else to contribute to the thread.

The discussion around flat has happened despite him, not because of him.




https://media1.giphy.com/media/vhaj0GMFlIeFa/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b952e4e3881db78a6fb97f3e45250d9 83c6569faaf4a&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g

Time: 5 hours 33 minutes.

It's hard to get less substantial than this. This doesn't provoke discussion. This doesn't tell us anything about how flat is thinking other than "flat doesn't like being voted".

It has been 21 hours and 39 minutes since flat last posted. That doesn't seem like it's driving discussion either - that looks like somebody who's accepted death and stopped contributing even those minimum-substance posts.

I have zero idea where you got the idea that flat is baiting people into discussion. There's a lot of people talking about flat, but that's not because he tricked them into talking, it's because a lot of people are getting weird vibes off him. Flat giving people scummy vibes isn't a reason to townlean him.

[Batcathat]

Yes! But to be fair, I for some reason just can't seemt o keep this lore straight. I keep thinking the white council is vampires for some reason. Do these books have a vampire faction that dresses in white or something?

The White Court are vampires, the White Council are wizards, so I can see why you'd be confused. Jim Butcher's a creative guy, but I suppose he could've varied the names a bit more. :smalltongue:

[flat_footed]

You're giving flat waaaaaay too much credit for basically nothing.

I'll own this. I poked inactive people Day 1, not really going to make apologies or try to claim false big brain plays for that. Considering your own activity yesterday was literally my first post alphabetized, feels like you're throwing a lot of effort at me relative to how little you say I'm putting in.

And it's not that I don't like being voted, it's exactly as others have said: my wagon sprang up hard and heavy. Xumtiil's OMGUS was just another to deal with. Plus, you know, Reflect doesn't actually work like that.

[gac3]

The White Court are vampires, the White Council are wizards, so I can see why you'd be confused. Jim Butcher's a creative guy, but I suppose he could've varied the names a bit more. :smalltongue:

You have no idea how much better that makes me feel. I keep seeing white council and am like... "okay, there was something about three types of vampires and one of them was definitely white... But I have repeatedly confirmed for myself that the white council is not vampires."

There's always the option with names like that, that it is intentionally uncreative. Is it the author being uncreative having two similar names or is he implying the characters are in creative?

The world may never know... *Owl flies away*

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone Else: "Let's play this game and kill the people whose name I'm not looking up right now because I'm on mobile and lazy."

Me: "I really need to read more of these books so I can keep my color coding down."

[AvatarVecna]

I'll own this. I poked inactive people Day 1, not really going to make apologies or try to claim false big brain plays for that. Considering your own activity yesterday was literally my first post alphabetized, feels like you're throwing a lot of effort at me relative to how little you say I'm putting in.

And it's not that I don't like being voted, it's exactly as others have said: my wagon sprang up hard and heavy. Xumtiil's OMGUS was just another to deal with. Plus, you know, Reflect doesn't actually work like that.

Yeah but I didn't have a wagon one. Lots of peoples activity is low when they're not in danger. It's town who tends to get louder when they're in the line of fire.

[Zelphas]

You have no idea how much better that makes me feel. I keep seeing white council and am like... "okay, there was something about three types of vampires and one of them was definitely white... But I have repeatedly confirmed for myself that the white council is not vampires."

There's always the option with names like that, that it is intentionally uncreative. Is it the author being uncreative having two similar names or is he implying the characters are in creative?

The world may never know... *Owl flies away*

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone Else: "Let's play this game and kill the people whose name I'm not looking up right now because I'm on mobile and lazy."

Me: "I really need to read more of these books so I can keep my color coding down."

What makes it worse is that the White Council has traitors in their midst, which the characters have begun calling the Black Council... and there's a Black Court of vampires.

And then the characters decided to form a pseudo-secret society within the White Council to help deal with the Black Council which is kinda-sorta called the Grey Council, adding to color confusion. At least the third type of vampire is called the Red Court, so there's some slight differentiation there. (Oh, and there's also the Jade Court of vampires, but they were only mentioned once and have never shown up in the story so they probably don't need to be remembered).

[Batcathat]

What makes it worse is that the White Council has traitors in their midst, which the characters have begun calling the Black Council... and there's a Black Court of vampires.

And then the characters decided to form a pseudo-secret society within the White Council to help deal with the Black Council which is kinda-sorta called the Grey Council, adding to color confusion. At least the third type of vampire is called the Red Court, so there's some slight differentiation there. (Oh, and there's also the Jade Court of vampires, but they were only mentioned once and have never shown up in the story so they probably don't need to be remembered).

Not to mention that the fae are divided into the Summer and Winter Courts (which admittedly is a preexisting division in mythology). So you need to keep in mind that Color + Council = Wizards, Color + Court = Vampires and Season + Court = Fae. :smallsmile:

- - - Updated - - -

If I seem eager to talk about Dresden Files lore, it might be because I'm already starting to feel the burden of narrating. Knowing everything but not able to talk about anything. :smalltongue:

[flat_footed]

The world may never know... *Owl flies away*

Ok, nice reference.


Yeah but I didn't have a wagon one. Lots of peoples activity is low when they're not in danger. It's town who tends to get louder when they're in the line of fire.

My MO is basically long periods of low activity follwed by frenzied responses to pressure.

[Metastachydium]

"Bait people into discussion" implies some kind of intent. You're giving flat waaaaaay too much credit for basically nothing.

(…)

That's not what this is. These posts aren't baiting people into discussion, they're randvotes on people who happen to have not managed to post yet, with their only excuse being "the game literally just started".

Come, now. Yes, bait carries connotations that do not accurately describe what flat was explicitly doing (i.e. trying to apply pressure), but I have quite literally just brought up the semantic/pragmatic distinction. I don't think my intent was really hard to divine.


You're acting like these people were flying under the radar and it's only thanks to FF's callout that we managed to trick them into participating at all, when the reality is that they were going to show up regardless of getting voted or not.

[Quick reminder that one of the players involved is the Wombat.]


They're not pointing out inconsistent arguments, or asking questions to gain insight into the minds of the people they're pointed at, or even sharing flat's own thoughts about alignments, gamestate, or even just mechanics.

I fail to see where the arguments the consistency of which would bear challenges even are at this "gamestate", to be frank.


a lot of people are getting weird vibes off him. Flat giving people scummy vibes isn't a reason to townlean him.

Hm. Let's take a look at that:


QUOTE=AvatarVecna;25511915]Names in alphabetical order cuz otherwise it'll bother me.

AvatarVecna
bladescape
Book Wombat
CaoimhinTheCape
Farmerbink
flat_footed
gac3
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Rogan
Snowblaze
Togo
Valmark
Xumtiil
Zelphas[/QUOTE]


There's a wagon already on one quiet player, so I'll add a second vote on flat_footed to see if both get talking.



I'll join in on voting flat_footed



*Twiddles thumbs awkwardly*

A hand, clad in black leather appears from the long sleeve of his heavy robes.

*Points at flat_footed*


Xumtiil used reflect. Flat_footed is voted instead!


Those are the votes on flat I could find. One's a (retracted) OMGUS, another's a (retracted) pressure vote and the rest come with no arguments whatsoever (including yours; you only gave a reasoning much later, based on something that wasn't true at that point). Other than that, there's your exchange with Jeen (who doesn't mention getting vibes of any sort) and gac and me wondering how flat ended up so popular.

Last I checked you weren't a lot of people.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, who again is townleaning him at this point?

[flat_footed]

Also, who again is townleaning him at this point?

*slowly raises hand*

[AvatarVecna]

Come, now. Yes, bait carries connotations that do not accurately describe what flat was explicitly doing (i.e. trying to apply pressure), but I have quite literally just brought up the semantic/pragmatic distinction. I don't think my intent was really hard to divine.

If you don't want to get called out on ascribing intent to flat's actions he doesn't deserve, then don't do that. Don't pretend he was doing something we both know he wasn't. If you knew the words would carry connotations you didn't believe we're true, maybe instead of throwing in a line about how you're exaggerating your single solitary point in flat's defense, you can just use words that better convey what you actually meant. Or would that have weakened your argument in defense of your buddy?


[Quick reminder that one of the players involved is the Wombat.]

Quick reminder: Book Wombatalways posts D1, usually just a single post with a randvote and that's about it. BW may generally he inactive, but their D1 posting style is about as dependable as the rising of the sun each morning. Flat voting BW because fhe happened to be online and active before BW was doesn't make it a callout post or even a real pressure vote.


I fail to see where the arguments the consistency of which would bear challenges even are at this "gamestate", to be frank.

I'm having trouble even parsing this. Assuming you mean something like "what is flat even supposed to say at this point to look townie", the answer is anything. It won't necessarily save him - you can commit no mistakes and still lose, it happens - but if he gives his gut reactions on people, asks pointed questions to people, picks at people's posts to find inconsistencies, that's something we can come back to in a few days to analyze. It might mean that a lynch on town!FF wouldn't be a complete loss. And instead we got gifs and silence - which, I will point out, is the opposite of how flat literally just said he responds to pressure.


Hm. Let's take a look at that:

Those are the votes on flat I could find. One's a (retracted) OMGUS, another's a (retracted) pressure vote and the rest come with no arguments whatsoever (including yours; you only gave a reasoning much later, based on something that wasn't true at that point). Other than that, there's your exchange with Jeen (who doesn't mention getting vibes of any sort) and gac and me wondering how flat ended up so popular.

Last I checked you weren't a lot of people.

So you admit that your initial post about him provoking a lot of discussion is not only wrong because he wasn't provoking it, but also because it didn't even generate discussion?


- - - Updated - - -

Also, who again is townleaning him at this point?

You certainly seem to be.

- - - Updated - - -


Half of those posts explicitly served to bait people into the discussion (i.e. their content is meaningful from a pragmatic (if not from a semantic) point of view), and it worked. Twice. It's nothing big, but nor is it nothing.

Also it's pretty minor, but it was two posts out of five that were "call outs", assuming you count super-early-D1 randvotes on people who happen to have not posted yet as "call outs".

- - - Updated - - -


Also, who again is townleaning him at this point?

I'm also go into detail why it reads like you're townreading him, from my perspective.

"I don't understand this argument against flat. He intentionally baited two players flying under the radar into joining the discussion, and yet he's gotten no credit for all the talk his actions have generated."

This is how your initial post reads. It reads like you're intentionally misconstruing flat's actions and thinking that his super-early randvotes on players he happened to get here before are actually this deep contribution to the ongoing discussion, when they were just randvotes accomplishing nothing.

It doesn't help that this defense of flat came with a built-in excuse for why your words didn't line up with what actually happened, in case you got called out on it. And it doesn't help that you're now pretending you weren't even defending him.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, it's a little strange that you were arguing for how much discussion flat was making, when the thread being so quiet is a way better argument in his defense.

[Metastachydium]

*slowly raises hand*

You don't count.


If you don't want to get called out on ascribing intent to flat's actions he doesn't deserve, then don't do that. Don't pretend he was doing something we both know he wasn't. If you knew the words would carry connotations you didn't believe we're true, maybe instead of throwing in a line about how you're exaggerating your single solitary point in flat's defense, you can just use words that better convey what you actually meant. Or would that have weakened your argument in defense of your buddy?

Oh. We are buddies now! (Rejoice, flat!)

Anyhow, realizing in retrospect that pressure would have been more precise than bait is hardly the nefarious scheming or admission of disgraceful defeat you seem to present it as.


Quick reminder: Book Wombatalways posts D1, usually just a single post with a randvote and that's about it. BW may generally he inactive, but their D1 posting style is about as dependable as the rising of the sun each morning. Flat voting BW because fhe happened to be online and active before BW was doesn't make it a callout post or even a real pressure vote.

Okay. I defer to your greater insight into the D1 habits of the Wombat. All I meant was that he's more often than not notoriously unhelpful. At best. But, perhaps, not in this way, then.


picks at people's posts to find inconsistencies

The "gamestate" at that point was, as far as I can tell, one where it was not quite easy to find arguments worthy of picking apart.


So you admit that your I itial post about him provoking a lot of discussion is not only wr9ng because he wasn't provoking it, but also because it didn't even generate discussion?

By the look of it (the Wombat's first post comes right after flat's Wombat vote; Xumtiil's first is a response to his pressure vote), his pressure votes hastened the process of a few silents showing themselves. That's what I said. The demonstrably false statements about "a lot of discussion about him" and "a lot of people getting scum vibes" came from you, in (fine, let's play this game) an apparent attempt to make your personal position sound more like the popular consensus.

That said, I have no issue with your vote on flat. You gave your reasons. What I'd like to hear more about is the reasons the other people on one of the leading wagons had.


You certainly seem to be.

Good to know. I sure thought "I have no reason to suspect a dog at work" is not the same thing as "yeah, he must be a white wizard". As you stressed yourself, we don't have much to work with, after all.

[flat_footed]

And instead we got gifs and silence - which, I will point out, is the opposite of how flat literally just said he responds to pressure.

To be fair, Day 1 first wagons very rarely stay the favored vote. I'm not feeling very pressured at the moment, despite vote counts. Though I reserve the right to change my opinion in 6 hours when I'm at home

[Metastachydium]

"I don't understand this argument against flat. He intentionally baited two players flying under the radar into joining the discussion, and yet he's gotten no credit for all the talk his actions have generated."

This is how your initial post reads. It reads like you're intentionally misconstruing flat's actions and thinking that his super-early randvotes on players he happened to get here before are actually this deep contribution to the ongoing discussion, when they were just randvotes accomplishing nothing."

Huh? I can see how you found bait misleading. I can't quite see how you read "t's nothing big, but nor is it nothing" as "it generated ALL that DEEP and SUPER-IMPORTANT discussion".



It doesn't help that this defense of flat came with a built-in excuse for why your words didn't line up with what actually happened, in case you got called out on it. And it doesn't help that you're now pretending you weren't even defending him.

?
He explicitly said he tried to press silents into talking. Also, again, [I]pointing out what I perceive is a flaw/exaggeration in your argument against a player is not a townlean.


Honestly, it's a little strange that you were arguing for how much discussion flat was making, when the thread being so quiet is a way better argument in his defense.

See above on both counts.

[AvatarVecna]

Anyhow, realizing in retrospect that pressure would have been more precise than bait is hardly the nefarious scheming or admission of disgraceful defeat you seem to present it as.

Getting halfway through a post and realizing that the words you used are going to give an impression you absolutely don't want to give is, at best, unhelpful.


Okay. I defer to your greater insight into the D1 habits of the Wombat. All I meant was that he's more often than not notoriously unhelpful. At best. But, perhaps, not in this way, then.


By the look of it (the Wombat's first post comes right after flat's Wombat vote; Xumtiil's first is a response to his pressure vote), his pressure votes hastened the process of a few silents showing themselves. That's what I said.[/quote]

And I'm saying that, while it may look like that, timing is a key part of it. If we were 33 hours into D1, and flat called out two people who had yet to post, and they posted shortly after getting called out, that's one thing. That's helpful, that maybe says something about those people, who were possibly lurking and trying to avoid detection, and only spoke up when called out. It's possible that the game started right as they went to bed, and they had a long day at work where they couldn't worry about WW games, and then they went to sleep again, and only then could they check on the thread, but it's far more likely that at some point in those 33 hours, they had the opportunity to reply to the thread with a bare-minimum vote and just chose not to, for some reason. Likely a "flying under the radar" reason, in which case votes on them would be intentional pressure.

But this was 3 hours into the game, not 33. Your assumption about how much flat's post matters to BW's and Xum's posts is plausible in the sense that it's not immediately disprovable, but it's far more likely that they got on the forum a few hours after the game started, jumped into the thread, saw flat voting them, and responded to that because there's nothing else to respond to. "Not sitting around for hours waiting for the game thread to open" is not inherently suspicious behavior. "People posted in the thread as soon as they were able to" isn't them flying under the radar for a few hours, and flat isn't calling out people flying under the radar just because he got to the thread first. If my first post had been a vote on you, that wouldn't make my post a "callout" on you either.


The demonstrably false statements about "a lot of discussion about him" and "a lot of people getting scum vibes" came from you, in (fine, let's play this game) an apparent attempt to make your personal position sound more like the popular consensus.

You're the one who said he baited people into joining the discussion, and tried to give him credit for it as if it's some big achievement when it was basically nothing. It is not my fault you can't choose your words correctly, and it's not my fault you refuse to stick by your words.

And until those randvotes move somewhere else, yeah, my opinion is popular consensus. That's how voting works. At this point, we're about 30 hours into D1 - usually the randvotes have become more serious by this point. If people had more serious suspicions somewhere besides their early D1 votes, they'd be moving votes and making arguments. The lack of that is an indication of the vibes people are getting off FF. Just because they haven't personally spoken up to say "I agree that flat looks like he gave up and went silent, the way wolves often do when they feel they're totally caught", doesn't mean you get to declare nobody is thinking it. At best, you are just as incorrect in saying they don't believe it as I am in saying they don't. But, as is kind of my point in analyzing flat, inaction is capable of speaking to people's internal thoughts just as much as action is.


As you stressed yourself, we don't have much to work with, after all.

Here's hoping all of this will bait somebody into discussion, then.

- - - Updated - - -


Huh? I can see how you found bait misleading. I can't quite see how you read "t's nothing big, but nor is it nothing" as "it generated ALL that DEEP and SUPER-IMPORTANT discussion".

You make a declaration that flat has taken pro-town actions, add a caveat where you don't mean literal actions but metaphorical ones (or whatever you believe the distinction is you were making), and then you add in "it's not nothing, but it's also barely anything" because you know how weak it sounds. I've been replying as if the declaration was your actual belief largely because that's the most charitable interpretation - if I take into account the caveat, and the "it's not nothing" add-on, it just looks like wafflewolf. It looks like a wolf who's sticking up for their wagoned scumbuddy, but doesn't wanna stick up too much so they can disavow it later in case their scumbuddy swings from the gallows.

So I read it as if you're taking the discussion he provoked very seriously - because if you're a townie, that's the real crux of your post. "flat took actions to try and help town by getting people to talk".

Me taking it any other way requires us to dig into just why you were making an argument that you knew was wrong and you didn't believe was all that important anyway. Maybe it's just nitpicking for the sake of perfect arguments. But maybe you're trying to lowkey defend your scumbuddy.


He explicitly said he tried to press silents into talking. Also, again, [I]pointing out what I perceive is a flaw/exaggeration in your argument against a player is not a townlean.

1) That's definitely an argument that his randvotes on Xum/BW are even more NAI than even I thought, which makes your argument in his defense weaker, not stronger.

2) Nitpicking at light flaws to avoid wrestling with the main thrust of the argument is a good way for scumbuddies to defend each other without looking like they're defending each other.

[Xumtiil]

I'm definitely unpairing AV and Metastachydium, for some reason. Can't really put my finger on it.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm definitely unpairing AV and Metastachydium, for some reason. Can't really put my finger on it.

Did you hear that, Meta? The distancing is working.

[Metastachydium]

Getting halfway through a post and realizing that the words you used are going to give an impression you absolutely don't want to give is, at best, unhelpful.

For someone so keen on checking timestamps as yourself, it is surely a curious thing that you somehow failed to notice that more than two hours have passed between my original post and my reaction to you pointing out the unintentional semantic ambiguity.


"People posted in the thread as soon as they were able to" isn't them flying under the radar for a few hours, and flat isn't calling out people flying under the radar just because he got to the thread first. If my first post had been a vote on you, that wouldn't make my post a "callout" on you either.

Well, if you went with


Book Wombat

Just a placeholder until more discussion and BW deigns to contribute.


Well, let's see if I can summon someone else.

Xumtiil, I choose you!

instead of, well, alphabetizing the player list I'd perhaps argue otherwise. As it stands, the analogy doesn't quite hold.


You're the one who said he baited people into joining the discussion, and tried to give him credit for it as if it's some big achievement when it was basically nothing. It is not my fault you can't choose your words correctly, and it's not my fault you refuse to stick by your words.

I addressed this in the previous post. I even quoted a few relevant bits from my initial comment. Like I said, the deal with "a lot of discussion" and "a lot of people getting scum vibes" are your inventions, however aptly you may "forget" about inventing them.


And until those randvotes move somewhere else, yeah, my opinion is popular consensus. That's how voting works. At this point, we're about 30 hours into D1 - usually the randvotes have become more serious by this point. If people had more serious suspicions somewhere besides their early D1 votes, they'd be moving votes and making arguments. The lack of that is an indication of the vibes people are getting off FF. Just because they haven't personally spoken up to say "I agree that flat looks like he gave up and went silent, the way wolves often do when they feel they're totally caught", doesn't mean you get to declare nobody is thinking it. At best, you are just as incorrect in saying they don't believe it as I am in saying they don't. But, as is kind of my point in analyzing flat, inaction is capable of speaking to people's internal thoughts just as much as action is.

Really? Two people got off flat in the meantime. The other two haven't posted since you came up with your theory, and the only thing we got from the Cape before that was basically "yeah, there might be a dog in one of the leading wagons". You are drastically oveselling your points.



You make a declaration that flat has taken pro-town actions, add a caveat where you don't mean literal actions but metaphorical ones (or whatever you believe the distinction is you were making), and then you add in "it's not nothing, but it's also barely anything" because you know how weak it sounds. I've been replying as if the declaration was your actual belief largely because that's the most charitable interpretation - if I take into account the caveat, and the "it's not nothing" add-on, it just looks like wafflewolf. It looks like a wolf who's sticking up for their wagoned scumbuddy, but doesn't wanna stick up too much so they can disavow it later in case their scumbuddy swings from the gallows.

So I read it as if you're taking the discussion he provoked very seriously - because if you're a townie, that's the real crux of your post. "flat took actions to try and help town by getting people to talk".

Me taking it any other way requires us to dig into just why you were making an argument that you knew was wrong and you didn't believe was all that important anyway. Maybe it's just nitpicking for the sake of perfect arguments. But maybe you're trying to lowkey defend your scumbuddy.

Like I said, in the same post, even, I didn't take anything from that point "very seriously". That was you, in fact. What I said in response to your "that's oh-so-suspicious" was, again, literally "while nothing big, those posts had a stated purpose and seemed to do something, even". Your whole "you deliberately pretended it's a huge deal" thing? It's just blatant strawmanning at this point and it's quite unbecoming.


1) That's definitely an argument that his randvotes on Xum/BW are even more NAI than even I thought, which makes your argument in his defense weaker, not stronger.

So, if my argument is that his early output is NAI, his early output being NAI is somehow undermining my points? An interesting notion.


2) Nitpicking at light flaws to avoid wrestling with the main thrust of the argument is a good way for scumbuddies to defend each other without looking like they're defending each other.

Are we even posting at the same forum? Nitpicking's the standard modus operandi 'round here. So far as I can tell, that holds true for this here subforum as well. Case in point, your argument against me (suddenly it sounds like you are suspecting flat because you think he's my "buddy") mostly rests on a fringe interpretation of a word I used without giving it much thought.

- - - Updated - - -


Did you hear that, Meta? The distancing is working.

Cool, now you and me can safely murderize them all as they sleep! [Evil laughter.]

[Farmerbink]

So I have some thoughts.

First and foremost, I appreciate not being subjected (yet) to random acts of lethal violence, while I'm still trying to figure out precisely what it is that Snowblaze is "in search of," much less how that acronym becomes plural. "End of Day" is pretty obvious, but "nearly accidental impalement" sounds outright impolite. Like, be careful bro.

In all seriousness, I had a reason to vote flat_footed, just not a good reason. I'm fairly confident good reasons don't exist D1 (oooh, look at me tryin' out the lingo), so I'm just not trying too hard to come up with one.

And one more serious question, someone dies every night? Like is a 3-way tie going to cause 3 random deaths? 'Kuz that sounds really bad for the townies. I don't feel like the odds are in our favor there.

((Please pardon the learning curve, I'm most used to games like One Night Ultimate Werewolf and Avalon. I understand the strategies- though I'm probably rusty. The lingo? Not so much))

[Xumtiil]

Not alignment indicative, but accidental impalement may also occur.

If there's a tie, usually decided by random. Would be stated in the rules, if not then assume random.

- - - Updated - - -

And there's a town vote to kill someone every day, and at night the baddies come out to play. Look at me being a poet.

[Batcathat]

And one more serious question, someone dies every night? Like is a 3-way tie going to cause 3 random deaths? 'Kuz that sounds really bad for the townies. I don't feel like the odds are in our favor there.

I'm not sure what the question is. Are you asking what happens if there is a tie for the lynch? If so, Xum is right, if more than one person has the most votes, who dies will be randomly decided.


((Please pardon the learning curve, I'm most used to games like One Night Ultimate Werewolf and Avalon. I understand the strategies- though I'm probably rusty. The lingo? Not so much))

I doubt anyone minds, we were all new and ignorant at some point. I'm pretty sure I contributed exactly nothing to town winning in my first game. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

For someone so keen on checking timestamps as yourself, it is surely a curious thing that you somehow failed to notice that more than two hours have passed between my original post and my reaction to you pointing out the unintentional semantic ambiguity.

Two hours before you mentioned the unintentional semantic ambiguity?


Well, I'm not sure I agree with the rest of the assessment either. Half of those posts explicitly served to bait people into the discussion (i.e. their content is meaningful from a pragmatic (if not from a semantic) point of view), and it worked. Twice. It's nothing big, but nor is it nothing.

Two hours? Weird. Because from my perspective, you making your slight nitpick in flat's defense, and you handwaving the semantics of your own argument, are in the same ****ing sentence. Not two hours apart. You're lying. Again.


Well, if you went with





instead of, well, alphabetizing the player list I'd perhaps argue otherwise. As it stands, the analogy doesn't quite hold.

I like how you're still ignoring the main point I'm making and instead nitpicking a minor point in a way that doesn't actually damage the argument. Whether flat_footed votes them and says "I'll move my vote after they post", or just posts a bare vote on them with no explanation, or just doesn't post at all, they were always going to post. It had only been a few hours since game start. They were always going to get around to posting before the first 24 hours had passed, these things just take a bit of time for everybody to see them, because not everybody is terminally online the way we are.

A "call out" that early is barely even pressure. A pressure vote is "stop flying under the radar or we'll lynch you", and this ain't that. It's a pointless threat because it's still so early that the behavior it's trying to punish (not being here in the first three hours) is NAI, and it's a meaningless threat because when there's one vote on you, and five votes on someone else, even if you are a wolf trying to fly under the radar, a single person voting you for inactivity is no reason for you to start being active, because you're still not in danger of actually getting lynched. It is baffling to me that you are reading flat's posts as anything but the most barebones early D1 participation that they are.


I addressed this in the previous post. I even quoted a few relevant bits from my initial comment. Like I said, the deal with "a lot of discussion" and "a lot of people getting scum vibes" are your inventions, however aptly you may "forget" about inventing them.

You are the one who insisted his posts had generated (or whatever word you wish to use) discussion. That was literally the only point you were making. I called you out on it by pointing out how "generating discussion" is only a point in his defense if it was on purpose and helpful, and it clearly wasn't either of those things - what discussion happened is a coincidence unrelated to any actions he was or wasn't taking to generate it. And by his own admission he was not trying to generate discussion.

Then, you pointed out (to try and undermine my argument that generating discussion isn't necessarily a point in his favor) that he didn't even generate discussion - even though, as I've quoted above, him generating discussion was your only point in his defense.


Really? Two people got off flat in the meantime. The other two haven't posted since you came up with your theory, and the only thing we got from the Cape before that was basically "yeah, there might be a dog in one of the leading wagons". You are drastically oveselling your points.

In fairness, on this one point you're not wrong. People did move. JeenLeen moved his vote not because he trusted flat exactly, but because he felt the wagon was too big for how early it was. That's still definitely a point against my argument, though. Xumtiil's vote change looks even less about trusting flat than that - Xumtiil tied up the wagons, so that we could potentially get info on the two of them before day is done from how people are moving their votes around, and maybe from how people talk about which one they'd rather have lynched. That's an action that's actually capable of generating discussions, just so we're clear. You are correct that they moved their votes, so me saying "they agree with me or they wouldn't have moved their votes" is technically wrong, even if neither vote move seems to actually be concerned with them suspecting somebody else more than they suspect flat.


Like I said, in the same post, even, I didn't take anything from that point "very seriously". That was you, in fact. What I said in response to your "that's oh-so-suspicious" was, again, literally "while nothing big, those posts had a stated purpose and seemed to do something, even". Your whole "you deliberately pretended it's a huge deal" thing? It's just blatant strawmanning at this point and it's quite unbecoming.

If you think his early day actions were NAI (as you've implied in the quote directly below this one), and you didn't think it was a big deal either way, then why the **** did you bring it up AT ALL.

Your original post reads like "I believe flat acted to help town on purpose (well, not literally help, and not literally on purpose). Not that it matters either way to me." There are two ways to interpret that. One is that you are the wishiest washiest wolf who's ever waffled, and the other is that you actually believe it's a good point in flat's defense, but you didn't want to make that point too forcefully in case others didn't agree. Otherwise, why add two caveats to your original post about it?

And I gotta say, everything that's happened since then is not convincing me of the latter explanation.


So, if my argument is that his early output is NAI, his early output being NAI is somehow undermining my points? An interesting notion.

This is why I suspect you. Your argument has shifted so many times since you initially made it. Your original point, as I've ****ing quoted above, was that flat took actions to help town; you stated you didn't necessarily think it was literally intentional, but that is still the position you were taking. And when I point out "his early day actions do not indicate town alignment they way you say they do", you turn around and say "see? you're admitting his early-day actions are NAI!" That's not what I said, and you know it.


Are we even posting at the same forum? Nitpicking's the standard modus operandi 'round here. So far as I can tell, that holds true for this here subforum as well. Case in point, your argument against me (suddenly it sounds like you are suspecting flat because you think he's my "buddy") mostly rests on a fringe interpretation of a word I used without giving it much thought.

First off: there are different ways of responding to arguments. What's common (and more importantly, helpful) is to find the point somebody is making, find the evidence that supports their point, and see if it holds up. If it doesn't, lay out why it doesn't, using quotes and evidence and facts. What is also sadly common is nitpicking: where you find minor things somebody said that don't have anything to do with the main point they're making, and you pick away at that instead of the main argument. The rhetorical strategy of it is to undermine authority without actually addressing the argument: "they got this small detail about this thing wrong, so how can you be sure they aren't similarly mistaken about something else".

The facts of what actually happened:

flat_footed made five posts. Those were "early D1 randvote", "null fluff", "early D1 randvote", "early D1 randvote", "reaction gift". He then disappeared for 24 hours, right after his wagon had gained yet another member and it looked like he was truly destined to hang D1. None of those posts are alignment indicative in either direction, but the disappearing for 24 hours right after his wagon got into the lead is something scum players tend to do. This is especially true for flat, since (in his own words) he tends towards "frenzied responses to pressure". That does not match his behavior yesterday, and it does not match his behavior today. He is, by his own admission, acting abnormally. When I point out the weirdness, he kinda mildly agrees with me that it's not a good look, and leaves again, while somebody else jumps in to defend him, for hours and hours on end. The person defending them changes their position constantly, does not address the facts or the main crux of the argument and instead engages with small tertiary points of evidence as if they are the key to the whole thing and defeating them collapses the whole accusation.

If you are town, then please get out of your own head, and understand how ****ing bad that all looks. And if you are town, then maybe - and you don't have to take advice from me on anything - but maybe, the next time you get halfway through a post, and you realize that the words you've written are not true to either the facts or your feelings on the facts, maybe start a second draft. That might work out better for you than adding a couple caveats that make it (accurately) look like you don't even believe all that much in what you're saying.

[Xumtiil]

First and foremost, I appreciate not being subjected (yet) to random acts of lethal violence

Just to let you know, in all seriousness, the community here will usually not kill a new player day one unless they're really impressively obviously a wolf, and even then it's doubtful.

We want everyone to have fun, and being slaughtered a few hours in on your very first game(s) is decidedly not that.

Considering this is my fourth game, I'm expecting my newness has worn off and I'm fair game now, so one of these times I'll probably end up in dead chat a lot faster than I'd have liked (although I can highly recommend the company awaiting us there!).

[Valmark]

I thought I'd finally catch up but uh... Those super long posts and sleep deprivation don't mesh together.

I'll try to catch up tomorrow morning, at least the posts that (look like they) have a lot of meat in them.

[gac3]

Just to let you know, in all seriousness, the community here will usually not kill a new player day one unless they're really impressively obviously a wolf, and even then it's doubtful.

We want everyone to have fun, and being slaughtered a few hours in on your very first game(s) is decidedly not that.

Considering this is my fourth game, I'm expecting my newness has worn off and I'm fair game now, so one of these times I'll probably end up in dead chat a lot faster than I'd have liked (although I can highly recommend the company awaiting us there!).

Eh. I usually ignore the newbie part past the first game.


I'm definitely unpairing AV and Metastachydium, for some reason. Can't really put my finger on it.

At the very least, I feel confident the wolf team is not Flat/AV/Meta/Xum/Snow based on this.

That said... Fights like this, between two people not at all involved with the issue they are fighting out usually ends up town/town. Like if this was flat and one of the others then it might be different but the fact that neither of them is arguing about the other or themselves per se feels like good town ness. That or it could theoretically be a three person team where they are all aligned and are really trying to stir up noise. Seems less likely but I like to consider big wild plays like that before I start clearing people.

For what it's worth, I'm on the general side of AV in that flat was given too much credit for their posts.

[bladescape]

Flat_footed

Science

[gac3]

Flat_footed

Science

Science???

[JeenLeen]

I haven't fully read up on everything or even clear on the current votecount, but I think we learn stuff if dies, so putting my vote back there.

---
On AV and Metastachdyium

I'll also note that AV has faked arguments with a wolf while a wolf, and she's argued passionately when not townie... but I'd also agree I doubt they are scumbuddies.
If flat flips wolf, some heat on Metastachdyium and some townlean on AV. (Though I wouldn't put it past wolf!AV to argue against a townie kinda defending a wolf-up-for-lynch for the purpose of gaining towncred and hoping to lynch them D2.)

- - - Updated - - -

I screwed up some formatting.
flat_footed

[Snowblaze]

Okay, stuff happened. Right. I don't actually think Meta/flat is a particularly likely team, because most wolves don't have the nerve to defend a partner that vigorously with that weak an argument against AV.

There's a world where Meta is a wolf TMIing flat town. I don't know how much I really believe in that world, though. As for flat's alignment... nullish to slight scumlean pending a meta-dive to see how town!him typically responds to pressure.

And this is probably a bad idea but I think AV is towny based on this. Wolf!them has no reason to care whether or not flat dies D1 (unless he's their partner, but we can worry about that if and when he flips wolf.)

Farmerbink, ISO is short for "isolation"; refers to looking at all of a player's posts at once and going through them and developing a read on that player. (Or trying to.) And TMI is "too much information" which in the context above means Meta is a wolf and knows flat is town because he's not in wolfchat, and is hence defending him for towncred. (Maybe.)

gac, why did I get into your mass unpairing when I wasn't around for any of the AV/Meta discussion?

flat_footed 5: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
bladescape 3: Zelphas, Snowblaze, Rogan
Snowblaze 2: Metastachydium, Xumtiil
Valmark 1: Valmark
Xumtiil 1: flat_footed
Metastachydium 1: Book Wombat
CaoimhinTheCape 1: gac3
No posts: Togo

So flat is clearly lead wagon. No objections to him dying, since I might not have time to do that meta-dive before EOD. I should be able to poke in and change votes if needed at some point.

In the (hopefully) unlikely event that I die... townleans on Rogan, AV, maybe Jeen is about the best I can do for a legacy.

[Metastachydium]

Two hours before you mentioned the unintentional semantic ambiguity?



Two hours? Weird. Because from my perspective, you making your slight nitpick in flat's defense, and you handwaving the semantics of your own argument, are in the same ****ing sentence. Not two hours apart. You're lying. Again.

I'm aware that this is how you operate, but it's still obnoxious and tiresome. You might want to dial it down a bit. More to the point, you might want to work on your basic comprehension skills. I'm not "handwaving the semantics of [my] own argument". The parenthetical remark is about flat's posts (i.e. I was arguing they have a pragmatic function rather than a strong semantic content). The imaginary contradiction I'm "lying" about is in your head.


I like how you're still ignoring the main point I'm making and instead nitpicking a minor point in a way that doesn't actually damage the argument. Whether flat_footed votes them and says "I'll move my vote after they post", or just posts a bare vote on them with no explanation, or just doesn't post at all, they were always going to post. It had only been a few hours since game start. They were always going to get around to posting before the first 24 hours had passed, these things just take a bit of time for everybody to see them, because not everybody is terminally online the way we are.

A "call out" that early is barely even pressure. A pressure vote is "stop flying under the radar or we'll lynch you", and this ain't that. It's a pointless threat because it's still so early that the behavior it's trying to punish (not being here in the first three hours) is NAI, and it's a meaningless threat because when there's one vote on you, and five votes on someone else, even if you are a wolf trying to fly under the radar, a single person voting you for inactivity is no reason for you to start being active, because you're still not in danger of actually getting lynched. It is baffling to me that you are reading flat's posts as anything but the most barebones early D1 participation that they are.

I'm reading them as just that. Early D1 participation. It's nothing big, like I said. Nor is it really nothing like your initial no reason/no argument random vote. It is baffling to me that you are accusing me of according particular significance of essentially NAI posts when you were the one who argued that flat's post might be indicative of being a dog.


You are the one who insisted his posts had generated (or whatever word you wish to use) discussion. That was literally the only point you were making. I called you out on it by pointing out how "generating discussion" is only a point in his defense if it was on purpose and helpful, and it clearly wasn't either of those things - what discussion happened is a coincidence unrelated to any actions he was or wasn't taking to generate it. And by his own admission he was not trying to generate discussion.

Then, you pointed out (to try and undermine my argument that generating discussion isn't necessarily a point in his favor) that he didn't even generate discussion - even though, as I've quoted above, him generating discussion was your only point in his defense.

No. I said half his posts had a pragmatic function, a purpose, namely hastening the process of others joining the fray. You might repeat the same equine faeces about me talking about "a lot of discussion" ad nauseam, but, again, that will still be something that only exists in your head.


If you think his early day actions were NAI (as you've implied in the quote directly below this one), and you didn't think it was a big deal either way, then why the **** did you bring it up AT ALL.

Because YOU claimed they might be a big deal and indicative of being a dog, which I thought was incorrect.


Your original post reads like "I believe flat acted to help town on purpose (well, not literally help, and not literally on purpose). Not that it matters either way to me." There are two ways to interpret that. One is that you are the wishiest washiest wolf who's ever waffled, and the other is that you actually believe it's a good point in flat's defense, but you didn't want to make that point too forcefully in case others didn't agree. Otherwise, why add two caveats to your original post about it?

Why? It's simple enough and if you'd been paying attention to what I've been saying in the last few rounds, you would know. It is because I think those posts served a purpose, but they are nevertheless not particularly important posts and they aren't indicative of much (contrary to what YOU suggested, i.e. that they are a good basis for a scumlean).


This is why I suspect you. Your argument has shifted so many times since you initially made it.

No they didn't.


you stated you didn't necessarily think it was literally intentional,

Where? I said they they have a pragmatic meaning, i.e. a function, a purpose rather than a rich semantic content. Last I check semantic wasn't a synonim of intentional, nor was pragmatic one for unintentional.


but that is still the position you were taking. And when I point out "his early day actions do not indicate town alignment they way you say they do",

I was quite explicit in stating (repeatedly) that I don't think those posts indicate any alignment. Drop the strawman.


you turn around and say "see? you're admitting his early-day actions are NAI!" That's not what I said, and you know it.

No? As far as I'm concerned,

1) That's definitely an argument that his randvotes on Xum/BW are even more NAI than even I thought, which makes your argument in his defense weaker, not stronger.
looks like you are saying the two posts are NAI. If by that you meant something else, that's a you problem, not a me problem.



First off: there are different ways of responding to arguments. What's common (and more importantly, helpful) is to find the point somebody is making,

Which you're apparently not really good at (v. your inventing an argument and trying to forcefeed it to me while pretending it's my point).


find the evidence that supports their point, and see if it holds up. If it doesn't, lay out why it doesn't, using quotes and evidence and facts.

Which you're apparently not really good at (v. your quoting stuff that doesn't support your points).


What is also sadly common is nitpicking: where you find minor things somebody said that don't have anything to do with the main point they're making, and you pick away at that instead of the main argument.

Like pretending a poorly chosen word is super important and not dropping the issue even after your target explains themself?


flat_footed made five posts. Those were "early D1 randvote", "null fluff", "early D1 randvote", "early D1 randvote", "reaction gift". He then disappeared for 24 hours, right after his wagon had gained yet another member and it looked like he was truly destined to hang D1. None of those posts are alignment indicative in either direction, but the disappearing for 24 hours right after his wagon got into the lead is something scum players tend to do. This is especially true for flat, since (in his own words) he tends towards "frenzied responses to pressure". That does not match his behavior yesterday, and it does not match his behavior today. He is, by his own admission, acting abnormally. When I point out the weirdness, he kinda mildly agrees with me that it's not a good look, and leaves again, while somebody else jumps in to defend him, for hours and hours on end. The person defending them changes their position constantly, does not address the facts or the main crux of the argument and instead engages with small tertiary points of evidence as if they are the key to the whole thing and defeating them collapses the whole accusation.

Putting aside the baseless accusation that I'm constantly changing my position, I'd recommend that you go back to my first post about your theory regarding flat. I'm quoting three posts, yours, Jeen's and the one in which you respond to Jeen. I wasn't addressing the issue of flat's silence, because Jeen already did that and you explicitly said Jeen has a point. My initial post was an addendum to Jeens, a minor contention regarding what he didn't address and I'm not the one who's blown it up flinging about serious accusations and getting ever more emotional about it. That was you.


And if you are town, then maybe - and you don't have to take advice from me on anything - but maybe, the next time you get halfway through a post, and you realize that the words you've written are not true to either the facts or your feelings on the facts, maybe start a second draft. That might work out better for you than adding a couple caveats that make it (accurately) look like you don't even believe all that much in what you're saying.

Well, an advice not to do something I never did in the first place is not particularly useful to me, so…

- - - Updated - - -



So flat is clearly lead wagon. No objections to him dying, since I might not have time to do that meta-dive before EOD. I should be able to poke in and change votes if needed at some point.

Same here, by the way.

[gac3]

gac, why did I get into your mass unpairing when I wasn't around for any of the AV/Meta discussion?
Quote from Snow but I'm too lazy to edit out the rest of their post on mobile.

The answer to this is simple. I wanted to unpaid the collective group of Flat/AV/Meta thinking no way all three are wolves with that encounter. ((I'm leaning towards two being town)) However I don't have the self confidence to truly make such a claim. So I added two more people at random. That way my list would be 5 and almost objectively true do to the assumption that there are four or less.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait a second... NAI means Not Alignment Indicative? Or am I wrong? I never put that together before.

[Book Wombat]

But yeah, flat had nothing to do with me posting. Came back home, had some food and decided to see if Day One had started (I looked the day before when it was still Night Zero). Also took some time trying to find a good colour for my character.

[Xumtiil]

I know tensions are running high, what with traitors and all, but both of you are giving me a headache with all that shouting. Why don't you grab something to eat? Always works for me.

[Metastachydium]

And now for the heck of it:

The lean figure slowly rises and looks around. AV. Snow. Gac. Xumtiil. Jeen. Bink, even. They speak words of wisdom – and unwise words that serve our purpose well. the voice is small but stern. But what of the others? Chatter. Joculations. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. a snort of contempt is heard. All I hear is drivel. the figure continues with cold scorn. Ei nobis, socii! Ludi lusores: ei nobis! Hostem habemus non solum intra moenia, sed etiam apud olim firmam ac fortissimam nostram aciem! Sua mente tenebris absumpta, audax, atrox, ferox, dulcia verba loquens ille nos venaturus est. Adversa sunt haec tempora, ingens periculum, minax umbra. Audite, socii! Lusores Ludi, audite! Silens silentia hostem adiuvat, cui nullum auxilium sit debitum. Ubi sunt voces, ubi vestra consilia?

- - - Updated - - -


But yeah, flat had nothing to do with me posting. Came back home, had some food and decided to see if Day Once had started (I looked the day before when it was still Night Zero). Also took some time trying to find a good colour for my character.

Hm. That's surprisingly straightforward and useful. Thank you!

[Rogan]

But yeah, flat had nothing to do with me posting. Came back home, had some food and decided to see if Day One had started (I looked the day before when it was still Night Zero). Also took some time trying to find a good colour for my character.

Since you put attention to this:
What is your biggest flaw?



Sorry for not getting back to some more posts, I was distracted by some online friends who might have encouraged me to grab my bottle of mead.

My vague impression of the AV Meta discussion is, that's not faked (if it is, well done you two). If there is a wolf in these two, I'm slightly leaning AV cause I can relate to the frustration of Meta.

My idea of flat is.. well, lynching him will give us information. His first wagon (fast to get to 3, even had 4 for a moment) still feels a bit too fast.
And flats vote shifting, what would have been the purpose for a wolf? He didn't try to provoke a counter wagon, but poked inactives. Which is as good a reason for day 1 votes as any.
More so, since he had a three votes counter wagon in Book and left this, this doesn't feel like someone looking for a way to deflect attention. Only caveat here, if one of them flips wolf, take a closer look at the other one. This might have been a scheme to create some distance between them.

Something that feels a bit strange is that I don't think we had any discussion about the counters to flats wagon. Did I miss this? Still not fully awake, I'm afraid.

I think I'll stay on blades a bit and try to get a read on him (that's doomed to fail on this cryptic bastard, isn't it?). I agree that flats lynch would give some information, but he still doesn't need more votes. Having only one big wagon isn't going to be helpful.


Shouting between the members of the Council. The emotions rising, the discussion heating. The wizzard slowly shakes his head and moves through the room to a piano and plays some notes, maybe music will calm the nerves a bit.

[Book Wombat]

Hah, my greatest flaw? You misunderstand. You are the flawed.
All of you.

[Rogan]

Hah, my greatest flaw? You misunderstand. You are the flawed.
All of you.

So you carry a coin and are laughing cause you can lay back and watch the council tear each other apart?
Sorry about the torture to your eyes

[Rogan]

What I find more interesting is how rapidly flat accumulated all those votes, only one of which is of the OMGUS sort.<snip> Am I missing something about flat? Is this also some meta stuff Meta just isn't aware of?


Different avatar, same old paladin, eh?


Hm.

This is a post I wanted to come back to for some time, so I might as well so this now.

I agree that the number of votes on flat are unusual. I don't think he did anything vote-worthy last game, so it's not some delayed revenge. In general, flat used to be pretty silent early on it took some pressure to get him talking, but I think this has shifted a bit.

So, early voters, any reasons for picking flat instead of someone else?

Always the same old Paladin! The avatar only was changed to prevent having two players with the same face. Or maybe I had an accident when trying some transmutation spell, this might also explain things a bit.

I'm also surprised there are so few Capes to be seen. One made of Blades springs to my mind. And Cao. And I might or might not have moved away from fashion to players, sorry about this.

[bladescape]

The man tapped fingernails on the edge of his table, watching carefully from underneath the hood. As he looked around there was an edge of fear to his glances. He'd never done well in pressure situations like this. Better left usually to--

No, don't finish that thought.

"Say, Rogan was it?" The voice wheezed out, lower pitched trying to grab the wizard's attention.

"Why do you approve of others deciding on one to kill, putting your voice behind their favour, but you stay out of it yourself?"

(I wanna say Meta shouldn't be unpaired yet from FF, Meta's whole "Defense but I'm saying I'm okay with the votes on him" reads kinda bad.)

(Science has been achieved.)

[gac3]

The man tapped fingernails on the edge of his table, watching carefully from underneath the hood. As he looked around there was an edge of fear to his glances. He'd never done well in pressure situations like this. Better left usually to--

No, don't finish that thought.

"Say, Rogan was it?" The voice wheezed out, lower pitched trying to grab the wizard's attention.

"Why do you approve of others deciding on one to kill, putting your voice behind their favour, but you stay out of it yourself?"

(I wanna say Meta shouldn't be unpaired yet from FF, Meta's whole "Defense but I'm saying I'm okay with the votes on him" reads kinda bad.)

(Science has been achieved.)

Science???

[Rogan]

The man tapped fingernails on the edge of his table, watching carefully from underneath the hood. As he looked around there was an edge of fear to his glances. He'd never done well in pressure situations like this. Better left usually to--

No, don't finish that thought.

"Say, Rogan was it?" The voice wheezed out, lower pitched trying to grab the wizard's attention.

"Why do you approve of others deciding on one to kill, putting your voice behind their favour, but you stay out of it yourself?"

(I wanna say Meta shouldn't be unpaired yet from FF, Meta's whole "Defense but I'm saying I'm okay with the votes on him" reads kinda bad.)

(Science has been achieved.)

The wizard turns, tender fingers leaving the keys of the piano, causing the idle sound to fade to silence once more. He glances up to the cloaked and hooded figure in front of him, his eyes slightly magnificated by the glasses sitting firmly on his nose.

"That's the way some call me, right. Not my real name, but since secrets might prove vital, I will accept it, for the time being. Although I'm not sure how helpful this really is... I'm not exactly disguised, you know?" Or maybe, the man in front of him didn't know. Was this even a man? These clothes could be used to hide many things, a coin being the most important one but far from the only thing.

"Under normal circumstances, my duty would be not be one of talking, Mr...?" Which kind of cover identity might this person assume?
"These are no normal circumstances, so I feel like I have to make myself heard. But there is no value in drowning out the voice of this poor lad"... A slender finger rises and points to flat ... "Not without considering other options as well. His death, if it has to come to it, will have a bigger impact when there is a choice to be made..."

Voting for flat right now doesn't change a thing. I will have my vote somewhere it matters. And you, Blades, felt unusually silent. Like AV said last game, you usually will call everyone a wolf day 1, so at the end of game you can say you were right. I was missing this part from you. There was some "yeah, I've got two wolves" and a vote "for science" but all in all a low activity play without shaking things up too much.
Feels good enough to have you as an possible alternative wagon. I think, lynching you has slightly better odds of hitting a wolf directly. Flat will yield more info about the way other people have positioned themselves regarding the lynch. Since my day 1 confidence is low, I'd rather take a look how other people vote than really pushing a wagon. If you think this is suspicious... *shrug* I think my chances of dying today are nearly nonexistent. And later on, I might have more things to solve this puzzle.

I think he means doing something to see what happens, like a science experiment

[bladescape]

Wait wait wait wait.

Out of character because wtf.

Go find a game where I call everyone a wolf.

I dare you.

I god damn dare you.

I will usually call at MAX like, 3 or 4, and each time I have specific reasons for each time I call someone a wolf.

Also note: I rarely don't have a wolf found in that list of people I sus.

Let's go trip down memory lane shall we? I'll skip PJ2 because I was a wolf there.

Afterlife D1 I called 3 people wolf (1 was Snow and was more meme than me seriously calling them wolf.)
1 of those was BCH who was wolf.

Wild West I was host.

Words of Power I was jester.

Fallout I called 1 person a wolf. And that was meme Snow vote.

Winter I called 3 people wolf (1 of which was Rogan, who was wolf that game. Number 2 was Taff which I called wolf for defending wolf 1 Rogan.)

- - - Updated - - -

I will admit to calling people wolf to see how people react.

100% that's a move I do.

But this idea that I call everyone a wolf D1? AV said something about players doing that but that ain't me bruv.

I have a history of low-number of wolf reads. There's probably like, one game where I decided to see how funny it would be to call everyone a wolf before D1 was over, but that's not only not how I like to play, but I like to be accurate on my low frequency of wolf pings. I like to be able to say "There's a decent chance I'll call a wolf as a wolf."

- - - Updated - - -

Also 50% of this was bad friday for me because of work, and 50% of this day was me playing D&D irl.

If you vote me out for having irl to make me lower activity than normal than I'll just laugh at you.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm aware that this is how you operate, but it's still obnoxious and tiresome. You might want to dial it down a bit. More to the point, you might want to work on your basic comprehension skills. I'm not "handwaving the semantics of [my] own argument". The parenthetical remark is about flat's posts (i.e. I was arguing they have a pragmatic function rather than a strong semantic content). The imaginary contradiction I'm "lying" about is in your head.

Except they don't have a "pragmatic function". Those posts are meaningless empty fluff that happen a dozen times a game. But regardless of that, the point of your post was pointing out that those two posts were doing something helpful, and yet later you're insisting they're NAI. Then what's the point of mentioning what you think they're doing if you don't think it tells us anything about flat? It feels contradictory to me, to bring up something you think doesn't actually matter for alignment reasons.

You said "it worked twice". The only reason to say that is if you think there was intent behind it, if you think that provoking conversation was a plan on FF's part. Now you're saying you never said he was doing it intentionally. Which is it?


I'm reading them as just that. Early D1 participation. It's nothing big, like I said. Nor is it really nothing like your initial no reason/no argument random vote. It is baffling to me that you are accusing me of according particular significance of essentially NAI posts when you were the one who argued that flat's post might be indicative of being a dog.

Early D1 participation is usually nothing. I am baffled you are pretending it's something.


No. I said half his posts had a pragmatic function, a purpose, namely hastening the process of others joining the fray.

And I'm saying they didn't. I am saying that not only did his posts not have any effect on if people started participating, or when people started participating, but that flat knew his post couldn't and didn't have an effect on such things. You are making those posts out like they're responsible for those people participating in the thread, and I'm telling you from significant experience that they made zero difference. None. Zilch. Nada.


Because YOU claimed they might be a big deal and indicative of being a dog, which I thought was incorrect.

"I think flat's early posts are just useless fluff, and his disappearance is suspicious. That's why I think he's scum."

"I think his early posts are actually doing something useful."

That is the actual way things played out, cutting out what Jeen contributed to the discussion. If you didn't think it was a big deal, if you didn't think it mattered, YOU WOULDNT HAVE ****ING SAID ANYTHING. The only reason to bring it up is if you think it's a solid point, if it matters. And now you're pretending you never thought it mattered.

Why? It's simple enough and if you'd been paying attention to what I've been saying in the last few rounds, you would know. It is because I think those posts served a purpose[/quote]

I have been paying attention. I just think you're wrong. I think you're so very wrong about this basic fundamental aspect of the game that happens in every single game that the only conclusion I've been able to draw is that you are arguing in bad faith to protect a friend.


I was quite explicit in stating (repeatedly) that I don't think those posts indicate any alignment. Drop the strawman.

I'm going to repeat myself a bit, and I'm trying to stay calm:

"I think flat's early posts are just useless fluff, and his disappearance is suspicious. That's why I think he's scum."

"I think his early posts are actually doing something useful."

Your post was making a counterargument against a point I brought up in my argument. The content (or lack thereof) of flat's post matters for one reason: figuring out if flat is scum or not. When I say "they're useless fluff", in my mind they're NAI, but that's not the reason I suspected him. When you argued that they're doing something useful, though, now the discussion shifts. The only reason to bring up what the posts are doing is if you think they're alignment-indicative where I didn't. If you don't think they're alignment-indicative, that's not actually a counterargument against what I was saying, that's just nitpicking. You don't think that point of the argument is technically correct, but you also don't disagree with the conclusion being drawn from it. You don't actually disagree with the point that matters (whether flat is scum or not), you're just arguing for the sake of it. Which is not helpful.

So, which is it? Did you bring it up because you thought the actions were AI, and thus a solid point against my argument? Or did you think they were NAI the entire time, and you were just nitpicking because you saw one thing that was perhaps slightly technically incorrect from a certain point of view?

If it's the latter, I hope you can see how it isn't actually all that helpful. Even if you're town, bringing up a perceived technical inaccuracy in an argument when you didn't think the inaccuracy was a crucial point in the argument being made, and you didn't disagree with the conclusion? It's you being more concerned with people being 100% right than you are with catching wolves.

[Rogan]

Wait wait wait wait.

Out of character because wtf.

Go find a game where I call everyone a wolf.

I dare you.

I god damn dare you.

I will usually call at MAX like, 3 or 4, and each time I have specific reasons for each time I call someone a wolf.

Also note: I rarely don't have a wolf found in that list of people I sus.

Let's go trip down memory lane shall we? I'll skip PJ2 because I was a wolf there.

Afterlife D1 I called 3 people wolf (1 was Snow and was more meme than me seriously calling them wolf.)
1 of those was BCH who was wolf.

Wild West I was host.

Words of Power I was jester.

Fallout I called 1 person a wolf. And that was meme Snow vote.

Winter I called 3 people wolf (1 of which was Rogan, who was wolf that game. Number 2 was Taff which I called wolf for defending wolf 1 Rogan.)

Everyone is of course an exaggeration. And I am paraphrasing AV from last game here. Day 1, about halfway into the game? Do you know what I mean or should I try to find the posts in question?

[AvatarVecna]

Like AV said last game, you usually will call everyone a wolf day 1, so at the end of game you can say you were right.

I know the accusation you're talking about, and it wasn't actually directed at blade. Blade has a habit of not explaining votes, but post-game explanations tend to occur. And I don't necessarily think the "spam accusations just so you can say you fingered a wolf D1" is a thing anybody really does, just me making a joke about how some people jump their accusations around a ton not because they necessarily believe them, but just to get reactions, and how those people tend to be considered dangerous players. There's a joke to be had there about how that kind of playstyle could maybe garner such a reputation even if it perhaps wasn't deserved, but I wasn't actually accusing anybody of playing that way, accidentally or purposefully.

(And also, the person I was thinking of when I said it was Murska.)

- - - Updated - - -


(Bookie can still die as far as I'm concerned. He's not playing anyway :smalltongue:)

concerned_skeleton.jpg

- - - Updated - - -


Quote from Snow but I'm too lazy to edit out the rest of their post on mobile.

The answer to this is simple. I wanted to unpaid the collective group of Flat/AV/Meta thinking no way all three are wolves with that encounter. ((I'm leaning towards two being town)) However I don't have the self confidence to truly make such a claim. So I added two more people at random. That way my list would be 5 and almost objectively true do to the assumption that there are four or less.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait a second... NAI means Not Alignment Indicative? Or am I wrong? I never put that together before.

poe_squinting.jpg

[bladescape]

Everyone is of course an exaggeration. And I am paraphrasing AV from last game here. Day 1, about halfway into the game? Do you know what I mean or should I try to find the posts in question?

I had the impression that wasn't talking about me because I was under the impression I don't do that. :smalltongue:

[Xumtiil]

I had promised some reads, so here they are:

Meta and AV unpaired both townleaning, Bladescape always scum until proven otherwise, everyone else null, except:



I kinda want to move to make a wagon competing with flat but I'm not sure anyone of the other wagons with at least two people look super appealing. None of the people I most want to kill are on there.

D1 and there are people he wants to kill?

Also; it was clear from the recruitment thread and introduction post, and still:


Does that mean wolves? I'm gonna Google what a denarian is... I keep seeing it and thinking of the game of thrones character

And lastly


At the very least, I feel confident the wolf team is not Flat/AV/Meta/Xum/Snow based on this.


gac, why did I get into your mass unpairing when I wasn't around for any of the AV/Meta discussion?


Quote from Snow but I'm too lazy to edit out the rest of their post on mobile.

The answer to this is simple. I wanted to unpaid the collective group of Flat/AV/Meta thinking no way all three are wolves with that encounter. ((I'm leaning towards two being town)) However I don't have the self confidence to truly make such a claim. So I added two more people at random. That way my list would be 5 and almost objectively true do to the assumption that there are four or less.

Gac: Wolf team is not these people?
Snow: Hey Gac why am I in that list?
Gac: Because *lazy handwaving gesture*

It's triggering me in ways I can't even describe, and as much as I want to hold on to my comfortable D1-Snow-vote-blanket, I think it's time to put some pressure on gac3

[AvatarVecna]

I had promised some reads, so here they are:

Meta and AV unpaired both townleaning, Bladescape always scum until proven otherwise, everyone else null, except:



D1 and there are people he wants to kill?

Also; it was clear from the recruitment thread and introduction post, and still:



And lastly







Gac: Wolf team is not these people?
Snow: Hey Gac why am I in that list?
Gac: Because *lazy handwaving gesture*

It's triggering me in ways I can't even describe, and as much as I want to hold on to my comfortable D1-Snow-vote-blanket, I think it's time to put some pressure on gac3

I vibed with this above, and I think I'll join you. gac3

[Rogan]

Also 50% of this was bad friday for me because of work, and 50% of this day was me playing D&D irl.

If you vote me out for having irl to make me lower activity than normal than I'll just laugh at you.

If you seriously think I'd do this, you are significantly worse at reading people than you claim to be.
As far as I know, you didn't announce your absence (which you are not required to do, of course) so you can't complain about noticing and mentioning this.

Your lower than usual activity was one of the reasons for my vote staying on you. But you are not the only one being silent. Hardly anybody is talking about you, despite you being the main counter wagon. Lots of back and forth about flat while you simply exists. One explanation is, flat is a wolf and the activity is an attempt to save him. The other one is, he is a townie and the actual wolves are happy sitting at the sideline and watching town tear itself apart, without drawing attention to anything else. Okay, maybe there is a third explanation and they are pushing a flat lynch, which could be either you (for asking me to shift my vote to someone in the lead anyway) or AV (for obvious reasons). Using some self inspection, I'm influencing flats wagon as well, but I don't need to worry about my own alignment, so yeah... that's something every other player needs to judge on their own.

[bladescape]

If you seriously think I'd do this, you are significantly worse at reading people than you claim to be.
As far as I know, you didn't announce your absence (which you are not required to do, of course) so you can't complain about noticing and mentioning this.

Your lower than usual activity was one of the reasons for my vote staying on you. But you are not the only one being silent. Hardly anybody is talking about you, despite you being the main counter wagon. Lots of back and forth about flat while you simply exists. One explanation is, flat is a wolf and the activity is an attempt to save him. The other one is, he is a townie and the actual wolves are happy sitting at the sideline and watching town tear itself apart, without drawing attention to anything else. Okay, maybe there is a third explanation and they are pushing a flat lynch, which could be either you (for asking me to shift my vote to someone in the lead anyway) or AV (for obvious reasons). Using some self inspection, I'm influencing flats wagon as well, but I don't need to worry about my own alignment, so yeah... that's something every other player needs to judge on their own.

I'm not going to lie that post was partially annoyance because I disliked the characterisation =P

But if it helps your reaction makes me pretty sure you're town.

[Rogan]

I know the accusation you're talking about, and it wasn't actually directed at blade. Blade has a habit of not explaining votes, but post-game explanations tend to occur. And I don't necessarily think the "spam accusations just so you can say you fingered a wolf D1" is a thing anybody really does, just me making a joke about how some people jump their accusations around a ton not because they necessarily believe them, but just to get reactions, and how those people tend to be considered dangerous players. There's a joke to be had there about how that kind of playstyle could maybe garner such a reputation even if it perhaps wasn't deserved, but I wasn't actually accusing anybody of playing that way, accidentally or purposefully.

(And also, the person I was thinking of when I said it was Murska.)

- - - Updated - - -



concerned_skeleton.jpg

- - - Updated - - -



poe_squinting.jpg

Ah, oh well... guess I've misunderstood you.
Sorry about this.

Book is hardly ever active in thread and still often gets to be alive pretty long. Or rather, because of this. I don't mind people having RL and other obligations or Hobbys. But I'm pretty sure, Book is staying away from thread deliberately. It's a style which works, sure. But not a style I want to support. So yeah... If book was a viable wagon again, I'd vote him.




I had promised some reads, so here they are:

Meta and AV unpaired both townleaning, Bladescape always scum until proven otherwise, everyone else null, except:


D1 and there are people he wants to kill?


Gac: Wolf team is not these people?
Snow: Hey Gac why am I in that list?
Gac: Because *lazy handwaving gesture*

It's triggering me in ways I can't even describe, and as much as I want to hold on to my comfortable D1-Snow-vote-blanket, I think it's time to put some pressure on gac3

Agreed on the unpairing. The town lean is mostly for "town is on each other's throats much more than wolves", or is there more to it?

For Blades, I apologize again for the clash. I agree that he's hard to read, but his emotional reaction felt genuine. I'd appreciate if someone else could give their input about this as well. Book, maybe you can surprise me?

Gac.. Well, I felt the same about having people he wanted to kill. Even made myself a note to ask about this later. So...
Gac3 I guess, it's time to explain your leans now instead ofwaiting till day 2.

- - - Updated - - -



flat_footed 5: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
bladescape 3: Zelphas, Snowblaze, Rogan
Snowblaze 2: Metastachydium, Xumtiil
Valmark 1: Valmark
Xumtiil 1: flat_footed
Metastachydium 1: Book Wombat
CaoimhinTheCape 1: gac3
No posts: Togo


Unless I've missed something, Xum, AV and me moved to gac, which makes this flat 4, blades 2, snow 1 and gac 33 . No, wait. Gac3 has 3. :smallwink:

[bladescape]

I will tell you right now that my emotive reaction would happen no matter my alignment. And would probably be genuine no matter my alignment?

I am proud of how I play werewolf and the danger I pose to the opposing team, and this includes my reads when I'm town.

- - - Updated - - -

Gac3

My good sirs, I like this content.

[Xumtiil]

Agreed on the unpairing. The town lean is mostly for "town is on each other's throats much more than wolves", or is there more to it?


I don't know Meta, and I do know AV could get all upset about stuff like this as a wolf, but it all feels very towny to me for now... Hence lean. Slight one, but definitely away from null.

- - - Updated - - -

And with Bladescape voting gac, if my numbers are correct, gac is actually on the chopping block right now with 4 votes vs 3 for flat

[Rogan]

I will tell you right now that my emotive reaction would happen no matter my alignment. And would probably be genuine no matter my alignment?

I am proud of how I play werewolf and the danger I pose to the opposing team, and this includes my reads when I'm town.

Great, now I'm getting flashbacks to last game where I've got a Town lean on you and was wrong and you did tell me my reasoning was invalid. What are the chances a similar thing is going on now?
Meh, I'll figure this out later.

By the way... you had two unnamed wolf leans before. Is one of them gac?

[bladescape]

Great, now I'm getting flashbacks to last game where I've got a Town lean on you and was wrong and you did tell me my reasoning was invalid. What are the chances a similar thing is going on now?
Meh, I'll figure this out later.

By the way... you had two unnamed wolf leans before. Is one of them gac?

Yes one was Gac.

The other was my science wolf read.

- - - Updated - - -

Or rather one was one that I felt wolfy from science as well.

- - - Updated - - -


Great, now I'm getting flashbacks to last game where I've got a Town lean on you and was wrong and you did tell me my reasoning was invalid. What are the chances a similar thing is going on now?
Meh, I'll figure this out later.

By the way... you had two unnamed wolf leans before. Is one of them gac?

I will tell you right now:

If you ever townread me for emotive play then you're probably invalid. :smalltongue:

Or, rather, if there's a way to read me off my emotive reactions I have yet to meet someone who can do it reliably. I can't guarantee there won't be someone who can in the future.

[AvatarVecna]

Book is hardly ever active in thread and still often gets to be alive pretty long. Or rather, because of this. I don't mind people having RL and other obligations or Hobbys. But I'm pretty sure, Book is staying away from thread deliberately. It's a style which works, sure. But not a style I want to support. So yeah... If book was a viable wagon again, I'd vote him.

I don't disagree. I just think that after last game where you baited Book into actual conversation and caught him out on a weirdness and he turned out to be a wolf, you might be less dismissive of trying to get him involved in the game.

[Book Wombat]

(Bookie can still die as far as I'm concerned. He's not playing anyway :smalltongue:)

You're not going to get rid of me that easily.

[bladescape]

I don't disagree. I just think that after last game where you baited Book into actual conversation and caught him out on a weirdness and he turned out to be a wolf, you might be less dismissive of trying to get him involved in the game.

I don't often find Book difficult to read, but he does take a few days before he's easily able to be read.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway I'm half asleep so gonna crash.

[Book Wombat]

Just a small note, but I don't think I have often refused to answer questions. Except those asking for reads. Which I might try to do Day Two, not sure.

Sleep well bladescape!

[Rogan]

I don't disagree. I just think that after last game where you baited Book into actual conversation and caught him out on a weirdness and he turned out to be a wolf, you might be less dismissive of trying to get him involved in the game.

Focus on his weirdness got me killed. Plus, I don't know if I can repeat this stunt. After all, it might have thought him a lesson, and the lesson being "speak up and get heat" instead of "get active and it will help your team".

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see Book being active. And I promise, I'm not going to call him a wolf for activity. ( I reserve the right to call him a wolf for something I perceive as a slip or otherwise suspicious.)
But I don't have much hope of actually seeing this happening, so he feels like a good day 1 wagon and maybe even lynch. Cause on later days, the best way to catch him is clearing everybody else (or mech).
But I guess this train has departed. Let's just hope, Book isn't a silent wolf again. Or that he gets decapitated by a Warden during the night, this would also work.

[Snowblaze]

Presentish until EOD.

Slightly concerned with how quickly this gac wagon built up without particularly strong reasons. Though I townlean half of it. I need to skim through gac and flat's ISOs to work out which of them I want dead.

- - - Updated - - -

Rogan, why should I vote gac?

[Rogan]

Just a small note, but I don't think I have often refused to answer questions. Except those asking for reads. Which I might try to do Day Two, not sure.

Sleep well bladescape!

I don't remember many questions for you, so I'm going to take your word for this.

Or better yet, let's test it. I'm not sure if you said anything about this, but are you familiar with the Dresden books? If yes, do you like your character?
Hmmm, what else... Do you have a cloak, coat, cape or similar? Please don't let me be the only one who doesn't need those accessories!

Maybe one read adjacent question: What do you think about me asking those questions?

[Snowblaze]

gac is weird but I can't work out whether it's wolfy weird or just standard gac weird. And flat doesn't have enough actual content for me to get a proper read but maybe that's wolfy on its own.

I'm second-guessing myself madly. Help.

- - - Updated - - -

The only recent towngame I can find for flat in which he had more than one post is Dead of Winter. He did grumble about being suspected for quietness then, but also contributed a bit more though that could be explained by it being a much more mechanics-heavy earlygame than this one. So I think that's a point in his favour... but if I vote him I can make a tie.

[Rogan]

Presentish until EOD.

Slightly concerned with how quickly this gac wagon built up without particularly strong reasons. Though I townlean half of it. I need to skim through gac and flat's ISOs to work out which of them I want dead.

- - - Updated - - -

Rogan, why should I vote gac?

Gac said he had people he wanted to kill early this day. When asked about this, he said these reads would take some time to develop. I'm hoping he will get to do this before EoD. So one reason is pressure, pain and simple.
There is also a pattern on him, where he will give some kind of non-answers to questions, which doesn't look that good.
I have to admit, this is mostly a recap of the arguments made by other players.
I'd add that he seems like a better counter wagon to flat than blades. A bit more vote movement and discussion.
I'd actually suggest you vote for flat right now, so the wagons are close and maybe there will be some more action than by having one big wagon. I don't think flat is very suspicious, but there is still a good chunk of content in the discussion about him.

[Xumtiil]

I'm second-guessing myself madly. Help.

Would it help if I voted for you again? It's a very comfortable vote.

[Snowblaze]

Whoever's around: who are wolf!flat's partners? Who are wolf!gac's partners?

Surface-level analysis says the former could be one of bladescape/Xumtiil for pushing the counterwagon. Actually people's reactions to the AV/Meta thing might help on that, will check.

There hasn't really been an attempt to try and stall the momentum on the gac wagon, other than by me, and checks role PM I'm not gac's partner. Though partners could be just afk/have little influence which describes a large portion of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks Rogan. I'd say the time for pressure votes isn't half an hour before EOD when the person being pressured hasn't recently posted.

Xumtiil, no, it would not. Having to break a tie would make my decision even harder.

- - - Updated - - -

Screw it, flat_footed. Let's see who blinks. And if no-one does, let's leave it up to the RNG.

[AvatarVecna]

Not really too much time to speculate on possible partners. Best I have is unpairing. Meta/flat isn't w/w, gac/Xum isn't w/w, gac/blade isn't w/w.

[Rogan]

Whoever's around: who are wolf!flat's partners? Who are wolf!gac's partners?

Surface-level analysis says the former could be one of bladescape/Xumtiil for pushing the counterwagon. Actually people's reactions to the AV/Meta thing might help on that, will check.

There hasn't really been an attempt to try and stall the momentum on the gac wagon, other than by me, and checks role PM I'm not gac's partner. Though partners could be just afk/have little influence which describes a large portion of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks Rogan. I'd say the time for pressure votes isn't half an hour before EOD when the person being pressured hasn't recently posted.

Xumtiil, no, it would not. Having to break a tie would make my decision even harder.

Yeah, that's probably right about the pressure. I lost track about time a bit.
Still, gacs refusal to give clear answers when he had a chance is a better reason to vote him than any of the current alternatives except flat. Crap, my vote could really decide this and I'm afraid of hitting the wrong one.

Flat.. he had Meta and to a lesser degree me for defense. AV for offense. I could also see a team up with book.
Gac.. his wagon popped up fast and you are his only defense right now.

Theory one, flat is a wolf who by chance got a wagon fast and this wagon persisted instead of going away, as Day 1 wagons usually do. In this case, gac would be the flash wagon to save him last second.
Theory two has flat as a townie and since there was so few activities a townie wanted to shake things up a bit. The alignment of gac is undetermined in this case.


****.. I guess flat might be the better wagon.

[Batcathat]

Suddenly...

Nearing the end of a long day of discussion and accusations, tensions are getting high and voices loud. But everyone goes quiet as one of the people present suddenly falls over, as if a switch had been flipped. Dead, with not a mark on him nor suggestion about who is responsible.

bladescape has died, they were Mortimer Lindqvist.

You are Mortimer Lindqvist, a surprisingly competent ectomancer.

Chatting with the spirits: You have access to the Deadchat and may post there while still alive, if you wish to.
Channelling the spirits: Once per game, you may pick one character power of an available dead character and gain it as your own for the rest of the game.

A Denarius was found on the body. Even more concerning, you find he was carrying an entire bag of denarii, though someone soon points out that there are more coins in the bag than there are Knights of the Blackened Denarius and thus, the coins are most likely false.

- - - Updated - - -

To be clear, this isn't the result of the lynch. End of Day will be along shortly at the scheduled time.

[Rogan]

Flat

Thanks day vog!

[CaoimhinTheCape]

bladescape remains his usual self, it seems. Toying with whether Caoimhin's response to that is wolfy but it's probably a stretch to say that. Caoimhin, who would you like to wagon?

I'm comfortable enough on Flat right now, though I'm making this post as I catch up so we'll see what I missed in the last 3 pages.

< 3 pages of reading later >

OK, I'll have to double check how soon EoD is. My instinct when I saw Xum's vote on gac is that I liked it. Then we got 3 people piling on and I got wary. gac hasn't been around to defend or claim anything so there's the chance we suddenly lost an important town role in gac before he gets a chance to defend himself. Flat on the other hand has been a leading wagon all day and if he was going to claim Seer or Doc or something he's had his chance. I'm comfortable with my vote on flat rather than gac.


I don't have too much more analysis yet barring the flip but the reads I have right now include:
Town lean: Xum, Meta (if flat turns up town), bladescape
Null: JeenLeen, Snowblaze, Zelphas, Book Wombat, Valmark, Rogan
???: AV
Scum lean: Meta (if flat turns up wolf), gac3, flat_footed
New: Farmerbink, Togo

*Note: if flat flips Wolf then gac suddenly goes to a Town lean/read and I'm looking at that wagon much closer.



Actually BCH can you ping Togo to make sure they're aware that the game has started?




Vote Count
flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, JeenLeen, Snowblaze
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book Wombat
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, Rogan, bladescape

No Vote: Togo

[Batcathat]

Day 1 has ended

Please hold for the resolution.

[AvatarVecna]

Suddenly...

Nearing the end of a long day of discussion and accusations, tensions are getting high and voices loud. But everyone goes quiet as one of the people present suddenly falls over, as if a switch had been flipped. Dead, with not a mark on him nor suggestion about who is responsible.

bladescape has died, they were Mortimer Lindqvist.

You are Mortimer Lindqvist, a surprisingly competent ectomancer.

Chatting with the spirits: You have access to the Deadchat and may post there while still alive, if you wish to.
Channelling the spirits: Once per game, you may pick one character power of an available dead character and gain it as your own for the rest of the game.

A Denarius was found on the body. Even more concerning, you find he was carrying an entire bag of denarii, though someone soon points out that there are more coins in the bag than there are Knights of the Blackened Denarius and thus, the coins are most likely false.

- - - Updated - - -

To be clear, this isn't the result of the lynch. End of Day will be along shortly at the scheduled time.

Lmao

flat_footed

EDIT: Disregard vote, day ended while I was posting.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

OK, so for clarity it sounds like blade was a wolf who got vigged? And if having a coin means you're evil he might have also been a framer?



Vote Count
flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, JeenLeen, Snowblaze, Rogan
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book Wombat
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, , bladescape

[Snowblaze]

Okay then. Nice shooting, whoever did that. That makes me feel better about my flat vote at least.

[Metastachydium]

Except they don't have a "pragmatic function". Those posts are meaningless empty fluff that happen a dozen times a game.

Pokes are not useless per se, even if (as the Wombat's clarification implies) I overestimated their potential at the stage they were used. And whether they actually do something or not has zero impact on whether they have a pragmatic meaning/function or not.


But regardless of that, the point of your post was pointing out that those two posts were doing something helpful, and yet later you're insisting they're NAI.

I disagree that something is only useful insofar as it directly indicates an alignment, in and on itself. The contradiction is in your head.


Then what's the point of mentioning what you think they're doing if you don't think it tells us anything about flat? It feels contradictory to me, to bring up something you think doesn't actually matter for alignment reasons.

See above.


You said "it worked twice". The only reason to say that is if you think there was intent behind it, if you think that provoking conversation was a plan on FF's part. Now you're saying you never said he was doing it intentionally. Which is it?

A speech act is usually at least as intentional as assigning semantic meaning to a string of words. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about, and I continue to suspect that you don't even understand what I'm saying.


Early D1 participation is usually nothing. I am baffled you are pretending it's something.

Usually. Unless it's something.


And I'm saying they didn't. I am saying that not only did his posts not have any effect on if people started participating, or when people started participating, but that flat knew his post couldn't and didn't have an effect on such things.

I don't know what flat does or doesn't know. If that's a conclusion based on his style and experience, that may as well be correct.


You are making those posts out like they're responsible for those people participating in the thread, and I'm telling you from significant experience that they made zero difference. None. Zilch. Nada.

Very well. I'll defer to your significant experience, then, mainly since empirical data from the Wombat (I specifically thanked him for) confirms it in this particular case.


"I think flat's early posts are just useless fluff, and his disappearance is suspicious. That's why I think he's scum."

"I think his early posts are actually doing something useful."

That is the actual way things played out, cutting out what Jeen contributed to the discussion. If you didn't think it was a big deal, if you didn't think it mattered, YOU WOULDNT HAVE ****ING SAID ANYTHING. The only reason to bring it up is if you think it's a solid point, if it matters. And now you're pretending you never thought it mattered.

Ira. Anger.

More to the point, I addressed this already (though you seem to have skipped over it quite conveniently). I quoted your post, Jeen's post and your other post conceding that point to Jeen. The first sentence of my reply also contains a conjunction that makes it abundantly clear I'm acknowledging Jeen's point and your reaction before appending a largely parenthetical addendum you blew out of proportion later. The post, as I repeatedly pointed out, also clarifies that I very much don't find it a "big deal". I fail to see what's so hard to grasp about that. (Speaking of parenthetical remarks, I know you like throwing tantrums or pretending to do so for various reasons, but I see little reason to engage you any further if you won't stop flinging all-caps profanities at me.)


I have been paying attention. I just think you're wrong. I think you're so very wrong about this basic fundamental aspect of the game that happens in every single game that the only conclusion I've been able to draw is that you are arguing in bad faith to protect a friend.

That seems more like a limitation of your imagination than anything else, Roy. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1053.html)


I'm going to repeat myself a bit, and I'm trying to stay calm:

"I think flat's early posts are just useless fluff, and his disappearance is suspicious. That's why I think he's scum."

"I think his early posts are actually doing something useful."

Your post was making a counterargument against a point I brought up in my argument. The content (or lack thereof) of flat's post matters for one reason: figuring out if flat is scum or not. When I say "they're useless fluff", in my mind they're NAI, but that's not the reason I suspected him. When you argued that they're doing something useful, though, now the discussion shifts. The only reason to bring up what the posts are doing is if you think they're alignment-indicative where I didn't. If you don't think they're alignment-indicative, that's not actually a counterargument against what I was saying, that's just nitpicking. You don't think that point of the argument is technically correct, but you also don't disagree with the conclusion being drawn from it. You don't actually disagree with the point that matters (whether flat is scum or not), you're just arguing for the sake of it. Which is not helpful.

So, which is it? Did you bring it up because you thought the actions were AI, and thus a solid point against my argument? Or did you think they were NAI the entire time, and you were just nitpicking because you saw one thing that was perhaps slightly technically incorrect from a certain point of view?

If it's the latter, I hope you can see how it isn't actually all that helpful. Even if you're town, bringing up a perceived technical inaccuracy in an argument when you didn't think the inaccuracy was a crucial point in the argument being made, and you didn't disagree with the conclusion? It's you being more concerned with people being 100% right than you are with catching wolves.

I see. This whole thing was you overreacting to an honest misunderstanding then. I'm glad to lear we agreed all along about flat's post being NAI, which would mean there is no reason for us to continue this discussion I'm not enjoying tremendously, if you catch my drift.

Some "nitpicks", though: in the post I first responded to, you never specified you assess the early posts and the lack of later ones separately. You merely stated that you don't find the former helpful and that you find it strange that flat isn't vehemently defending himself. Naturally enough, I thought you are referring to both these components when giving the NAGL verdict and responded accordingly. What followed was not something you "repeated" here. It was an adversarial tsunami of ranting, cursing and accusing me of various things, mainly lying, being a dog and shifting my position, spiced up with something I found thoroughly incomprehensible and largely non sequitur about intentionality. You continuously operated under the conviction that
1. I'm saying flat is town, and whenever I debunk that I'm lying in the dumbest way possible; and
2. I know exactly what you're thinking (despite your never explaining yourself coherently) and I'm trolling you to push some agenda;
although I never said flat was town and wasn't aware that in your head you treated the early posts and the basis for your scumlean separately.
If one of us wasn't engaged in good faith, that certainly wasn't you.

And one more thing, if I may be so blunt: I appreciate that you as a hardcore, top league player are trying to help me improve my style if that is indeed what you are doing (rather than just trying to use me as a sandbag for reasons unclear to me). However, until and unless you learn some proper impulse control, please refrain from trying to teach me manners.


Hah, my greatest flaw? You misunderstand. You are the flawed.
All of you.

And Superbia. Pride. Harum regionum incolae habebant id quondam vitium esse, and a major one at that, as you surely know yourself. Septem Mala! The Seven Ills as De Coster would say. But, you see, most things have more than one face, and often enough certainly more than quam Hostis fert ac quo Hostis fertur. The Seven Ills – and the Circle. Winter and Spring. The Giant and the Cup. And against them, himself of two faces, ille Princeps Veris et Pallidus Arbiter. The lean figure sits down again nodding to themselves. But you never struck me as one who wouldn't find such musings on ethics, Right and Wrong, Good and Ill of much interest. You might find them insipid, as they often are. Don't you, now? the figure looks at the Wombat staring intently from under the hood. Let us talk of other things, perhaps, things that certainly intigue me more. Who is all of us?

- - - Updated - - -

Damn it. Never check your facts, kid! That's what happens when you do. The day just ends while you're typing away.

- - - Updated - - -

Further, bladescape's fate is, well, interesting. I'm glad to be rid of him, at any rate. Those were quite the powers.

[Rogan]

Okay then. Nice shooting, whoever did that. That makes me feel better about my flat vote at least.

Oh yes. I was about to ask you a favor when the shot happened, but it wasn't relevant anymore.

Just a question, do you think my debating whether or not I should change my vote makes me suspicious enough to draw a vig shot? If yes, do you suggest I do something about this during the night?

[Batcathat]

The unexpected death does little to calm anyone down and after accusations are repeated enough that they become fact, a brawl erupts and after a few moments of violent chaos, one of the very Wardens that were supposed to protect everyone lies dead on the floor.


flat_footed has died, they were Carlos Ramirez.

You are Carlos Ramirez, a Warden of the White Council, tasked with hunting down those who break the laws of magic.

Once per night...

Put 'em in shackles: ...you may arrest someone and put them in magic suppressing shackles for the rest of the night, meaning they cannot actively use a power.
...or...
Tail 'em: ...you may attempt to follow someone and see who they target.

No Denarius was found on the body.




Night 1 has started

It will end 6 pm (European Central Time) on Sunday

(That is a little less than 24 hours as of this post)

[Metastachydium]

Sleep well bladescape!

How very appropriate, I must say.

- - - Updated - - -




Night 1 has started

It will end 6 pm (European Central Time) on Saturday

(That is a little less than 24 hours as of this post)

Um, Bat? It's Saturday. That was 21 minutes ago.

[Snowblaze]

Oh yes. I was about to ask you a favor when the shot happened, but it wasn't relevant anymore.

Just a question, do you think my debating whether or not I should change my vote makes me suspicious enough to draw a vig shot? If yes, do you suggest I do something about this during the night?
Given the townflip and the fact gac gets towncred from bladescape flip, probably not. If I were a vig (which I will neither confirm nor deny) you wouldn't be on my list of possible targets.

[Batcathat]

Um, Bat? It's Saturday. That was 21 minutes ago.

What are you talking about? My post clearly says Sunday and totally always did. As the Narrator, I'm obviously without mortal flaws such as forgetting to change the day... :smallwink:

[Rogan]

The unexpected death does little to calm anyone down and after accusations are repeated enough that they become fact, a brawl erupts and after a few moments of violent chaos, one of the very Wardens that were supposed to protect everyone lies dead on the floor.


flat_footed has died, they were Carlos Ramirez.

You are Carlos Ramirez, a Warden of the White Council, tasked with hunting down those who break the laws of magic.

Once per night...

Put 'em in shackles: ...you may arrest someone and put them in magic suppressing shackles for the rest of the night, meaning they cannot actively use a power.
...or...
Tail 'em: ...you may attempt to follow someone and see who they target.

No Denarius was found on the body.




Night 1 has started

It will end 6 pm (European Central Time) on Saturday

(That is a little less than 24 hours as of this post)


Huh? This changes things again. I thought blades was trying to save flat...
Back to the drawing board for theories again.

[Batcathat]

Actually BCH can you ping Togo to make sure they're aware that the game has started?

Yeah, I'll do that, but considering their profile says they haven't been active for a couple of days, I'm not sure how much it'll help.

[Metastachydium]

What are you talking about? My post clearly says Sunday and totally always did. As the Narrator, I'm obviously without mortal flaws such as forgetting to change the day... :smallwink:

I saw it, Bat. I saw you.

(Oh right, and before I'd forget: are we using XD or night actions should be sent in PMs? I'd prefer the former, obviously. Inboxes 'round here clutter up fast.)

[Rogan]

What are you talking about? My post clearly says Sunday and totally always did. As the Narrator, I'm obviously without mortal flaws such as forgetting to change the day... :smallwink:

Well... I've got a record saying otherwise, do you suggest I made a mistake? :smalltongue:

For something a bit more serious: Can you tell us if the fake coins had mechanical meaning or were just fluff?
My current interpretation is, ever character has powers fitting the role. The wolves are randomly assigned and get an additional power. In blades case, this was framing (as Cao suggested)

- - - Updated - - -


I saw it, Bat. I saw you.

(Oh right, and before I'd forget: are we using XD or night actions should be sent in PMs? I'd prefer the former, obviously. Inboxes 'round here clutter up fast.)

Uhh, carefully with those questions in the open. Now everyone will wonder what kind of XD you have to post night actions.

[Batcathat]

I saw it, Bat. I saw you.

:smalleek:


(Oh right, and before I'd forget: are we using XD or night actions should be sent in PMs? I'd prefer the former, obviously. Inboxes 'round here clutter up fast.)

Those who already have access to an XD with me can use that, those who don't can use PM (I'll try to keep my inbox nice and uncluttred).

Speaking of actions... regardless of how someone submits an action to me, I will confirm that I have received it. So if you don't get that, it might be a good idea to try again, just in case.

[Metastachydium]

Uhh, carefully with those questions in the open. Now everyone will wonder what kind of XD you have to post night actions.

[Evil cackling.] I expect that much, young man, I expect that much.


:smalleek:

[More evil laughter.]


Those who already have access to an XD with me can use that, those who don't can use PM (I'll try to keep my inbox nice and uncluttred).

Actually, I might be more worried about my own Inbox.

[Farmerbink]

*blinks* *twice*

The cowled figure breaks its silence with a deep, heavy exhale. "Carlos, why would you hide like that?" he wonders, only barely aloud. From within his robes, the leather-bound hand retrieves a deep purple stole of the senior council. Draping it over his towering shoulders, he declares himself among the most learned and reliable members of the council.

"Though it appears otherwise, we have begun well. I'm sadden at Carlos' fall, and my own role in his undoing, but fate has smiled upon us by delivering Mortimer's Denarian into our hands. It's a shame he never chose to pursue greater power in the proper channels. He and his abilities beyond the grave could have been quite a boon to the Council. Pity." Once more lapsing into silence, the cowled head passes from side to side, pausing occasionally perhaps to more deeply inspect what he sees from within.

[Book Wombat]

Or better yet, let's test it. I'm not sure if you said anything about this, but are you familiar with the Dresden books? If yes, do you like your character?
Hmmm, what else... Do you have a cloak, coat, cape or similar? Please don't let me be the only one who doesn't need those accessories!

Maybe one read adjacent question: What do you think about me asking those questions?

I haven't read the books (grandly living up to my name) but I did check my character. Do robes count? Otherwise I only have one other object of note.

--

One of each down, for Day One that's pretty good!

[gac3]

I haven't read anything except the flip as I'm struggling to sleep and only popped in to see that. I did see that I got some good votes in! Between that and the flip, I was filled with intense surprises. Let me tell you though, switching it to me wouldn't have mattered. Which is weird.

[Snowblaze]

The wizard smiled to herself. Survival really wasn't that hard in the end; all you had to do was give people a better target. The loss of the flat-footed Warden was regrettable, but she hadn't known him well. It mattered little.

Much more interesting was the fate of the ectomancer. Dead without a trace of harm, that took a skilled wizard. Unfortunately,
this being the White Council, everyone in the room was a skilled wizard. She would have been concerned if the deceased hadn't been possessed. That fact suggested the killer was trying to eliminate the Denarians, which meant they had a common interest. The sooner this was over, the sooner she could return to her... other responsibilities.

(RL looks set to be pretty quiet the next few days. I'm tired now, so hyperposting wolf-murdering Snowblaze will be here tomorrow.)

[JeenLeen]

A Denarius was found on the body. Even more concerning, you find he was carrying an entire bag of denarii, though someone soon points out that there are more coins in the bag than there are Knights of the Blackened Denarius and thus, the coins are most likely false.

- - - Updated - - -

To be clear, this isn't the result of the lynch. End of Day will be along shortly at the scheduled time.

So a day-vig, eh? Neat.

On the bag of denarii, I'm guessing that means the wolves have a third power and bladescape's was to fool a seer. Like, plant a denarius on a person to make it seem like they are wolf to a seer.

I have two powers like bladescape had posted, so I reckon most of us have two powers and the wolves get a third.

- - - Updated - - -

FYI: I think my website cache screwed up or something, because I thought the last post was just a few after bladescape's flip... but I see a whole page was after that.

[Rogan]

... The forum just ate a reply... Some RP, some minor actions. I don't want to type it all up again, so here is the short version:

Farmer: You pointed out your role in flats lynch. Can you answer (tomorrow) why you voted him and didn't change your mind? Night talk in general is risky, so I'd advice you to be careful with it. Especialy when you give hints about your role and therefore power.

Book: Yeah, I'll count robes. But I have not read the books either, so I am not 100% sure what kind of clothing my char would wear. What do you think about the kill on blades? I'd asume a 1 shot power.

gac: I don't understand your post. It would be nice if you could explain, maybe tomorrow, maybe shortly before EoN (if you fear getting killed). Also include the part about your early day suspicions.

Snow: Looking forward to see more from you, especially the wolf killing part. But even busy we both are ammong the top posters, so yeah, have a calm evening/night and don't stress it.

Jeen: Yeah, definitly looks like a day vig. I can confirm two powers for me. But reading the recruitment makes me think there will be some players with only one power. If I had to guess, there will be many one shot powers. The day vig might be one of them, but thats just guessing.

[Farmerbink]

So, um.

Why is night talk generally considered dangerous? I get that the Denarians are plotting and gonna kill someone, but they are also decidedly going to kill a villager, right? I'm not sure it makes too much sense to keep our cards close to our chest, especially when it is seriously possible you won't get another chance to share with your team.

Oh, and what's "vig?"

[Rogan]

So, um.

Why is night talk generally considered dangerous? I get that the Denarians are plotting and gonna kill someone, but they are also decidedly going to kill a villager, right? I'm not sure it makes too much sense to keep our cards close to our chest, especially when it is seriously possible you won't get another chance to share with your team.

Oh, and what's "vig?"

There are multiple reasons.
It is dangerous cause we all have our little secrets. If our enemies would know our roles, they could take a guess at our powers. If they know our powers, they can pick off the biggest threats for them (Seer for example).
It's also dangerous cause even if they have no idea about the roles, they might use it to target people who are dangerous for being trusted. Or keeping someone alive in the night, cause they are suspecteded and likely to get killed during the day.

Of course, night talk also has advantages. Town in general can't talk with anybody else in private, so they might want to get some input from the hive mind to guide their own actions. Someone who is afraid of dying might be able to voice some suspicions before getting killed. It might be a good idea to post a legacy read shortly before the end of the night, so there is not much time to react to any info you might include there, but it's not lost if you die.
It's up to you if you want to take this risk and talk, but I think you should know the risks and advantages. I strongly advice you to keep silent about your powers, unless you think claiming them will give a big advantage.

Vig is short for Vigilant, a Town role with the power to kill, usually during the night (but we seem to have a day vig, this time).

[Book Wombat]

Book: [...] What do you think about the kill on blades? I'd asume a 1 shot power.

That would make sense, but using a power like that on Day One? I can't see any obvious reason to target bladescape (did I miss something?), so I have some doubt it's a one-shot unless we have a Serial Killer. I really dunno.

[JeenLeen]

If I had a 1-shot power and thought I might die N1 or even D1 if votes changed quickly (not saying the latter applied this game), I would feel tempted to use it.
Not sure why Snowblaze (she claimed it, right?) would target bladescape, but I feel she had a good sense of reading him from last game, so maybe some tipped her off. Or, if she's neutral hunting someone in particular (as maybe the RP thought was hinting), then perhaps one of his half-obscured statements made her think he was the target.

Again, haven't had time to read everything, so might be off.

[Snowblaze]

I'm not claiming the bladescape shot. What gave you the impression I was?

Also can't see an obvious reason to target bladescape but I don't think speculating about that is pro-town. So I won't. Agreed that he was likely some sort of framer.

Going to ISO him and then reread stuff to produce some thoughts and questions.

- - - Updated - - -


bladescape, annoyingly, has eleven posts. I cut out one which was RP without game-related content.
Snowblaze

Try..... 4? 5?

I don't even remember anymore

So... remember what Rogan said in recruitment about trying to kill me D1 having a tendency to get people killed? Yeah. (Still not claiming the shot.)

Anyway, this says nothing about any alignment I don't already know.


There's a wolf voting someone in this 3 way tie.

I can say for certain.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually wait the two wolf reads I have aren't even voting anyone in this 3way tie.

...

Huh.

- - - Updated - - -

Also 3 way ties are too amusing for me to actually care about my wolf reads, so make of that what you will.
Oh, right. bladescape is a cryptic bastard who doesn't actually state his reads on people. That's going to make this harder. (Also bladescape was both correct and certain about at least one wolf voting someone in the tie.)

Flat_footed

Science
Given the flat flip, not particularly helpful. I could argue he was trying to move against one of the counterwagons to flat, but considering said wagons were him and me... I guess wolfy motivation is just self-preservation.


The man tapped fingernails on the edge of his table, watching carefully from underneath the hood. As he looked around there was an edge of fear to his glances. He'd never done well in pressure situations like this. Better left usually to--

No, don't finish that thought.

"Say, Rogan was it?" The voice wheezed out, lower pitched trying to grab the wizard's attention.

"Why do you approve of others deciding on one to kill, putting your voice behind their favour, but you stay out of it yourself?"

(I wanna say Meta shouldn't be unpaired yet from FF, Meta's whole "Defense but I'm saying I'm okay with the votes on him" reads kinda bad.)

(Science has been achieved.)
I think this is a mildly good look for both Rogan and Meta. Shading the former and disagreeing with my point in favour of the latter seem more like trying to stop townies being cleared than distancing.


Wait wait wait wait.

Out of character because wtf.

Go find a game where I call everyone a wolf.

I dare you.

I god damn dare you.

I will usually call at MAX like, 3 or 4, and each time I have specific reasons for each time I call someone a wolf.

Also note: I rarely don't have a wolf found in that list of people I sus.

Let's go trip down memory lane shall we? I'll skip PJ2 because I was a wolf there.

Afterlife D1 I called 3 people wolf (1 was Snow and was more meme than me seriously calling them wolf.)
1 of those was BCH who was wolf.

Wild West I was host.

Words of Power I was jester.

Fallout I called 1 person a wolf. And that was meme Snow vote.

Winter I called 3 people wolf (1 of which was Rogan, who was wolf that game. Number 2 was Taff which I called wolf for defending wolf 1 Rogan.)

- - - Updated - - -

I will admit to calling people wolf to see how people react.

100% that's a move I do.

But this idea that I call everyone a wolf D1? AV said something about players doing that but that ain't me bruv.

I have a history of low-number of wolf reads. There's probably like, one game where I decided to see how funny it would be to call everyone a wolf before D1 was over, but that's not only not how I like to play, but I like to be accurate on my low frequency of wolf pings. I like to be able to say "There's a decent chance I'll call a wolf as a wolf."

- - - Updated - - -

Also 50% of this was bad friday for me because of work, and 50% of this day was me playing D&D irl.

If you vote me out for having irl to make me lower activity than normal than I'll just laugh at you.
O...kay. Says more about bladescape's ego than his partners. Though otoh Rogan's treatment of him means they're unpaired anyway.

I had the impression that wasn't talking about me because I was under the impression I don't do that. :smalltongue:
Not particularly helpful for partner-finding.

I'm not going to lie that post was partially annoyance because I disliked the characterisation =P

But if it helps your reaction makes me pretty sure you're town.
Eh, I could argue this is trying to pocket Rogan but I don't feel the need to. The more I read, the better I'm feeling about Rogan.

I will tell you right now that my emotive reaction would happen no matter my alignment. And would probably be genuine no matter my alignment?

I am proud of how I play werewolf and the danger I pose to the opposing team, and this includes my reads when I'm town.

- - - Updated - - -

Gac3

My good sirs, I like this content.
Given flat flip this is towny for gac. While bladescape could bus, I don't think he goes as far as to put an active partner in the lead without a particularly strong case or much attempt to leverage towncred.

Yes one was Gac.

The other was my science wolf read.

- - - Updated - - -

Or rather one was one that I felt wolfy from science as well.

- - - Updated - - -

I will tell you right now:

If you ever townread me for emotive play then you're probably invalid. :smalltongue:

Or, rather, if there's a way to read me off my emotive reactions I have yet to meet someone who can do it reliably. I can't guarantee there won't be someone who can in the future.
Cryptic bastardry. Which is frustrating.

I don't often find Book difficult to read, but he does take a few days before he's easily able to be read.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway I'm half asleep so gonna crash.
Eh... with a lot of squinting I can see this as partnered with Wombat.


So, yeah. That wasn't as helpful as I thought. Conclusions are towncred for gac, Rogan and Meta, the latter slightly less confident than the other two.

[Snowblaze]

Okay, I need to get things straight in my head. Let's see:
Town: Rogan, gac3
Townlean: AvatarVecna, Metastachydium

Leaving Jeen, Caoimhin, Wombat, Xumtiil, Farmerbink, Zelphas Togo and Valmark. I'll skim through those and try and get to some solid reads one way or another.

- - - Updated - - -

Togo has no posts, so is null. Valmark has two posts but zero game-related content, also null.

- - - Updated - - -

Zelphas has three posts, of which the following is most relevant:


Oof, Dresden dead immediately. Well, that will make things calmer... maybe.

The random d15 roll landed on 4, so according to the first player list posted that's bladescape. This is, of course, subject to change.

I'm just turning this over in my head and trying to work out if it's partnery. The "subject to change" could be a wolf setting out a route off their partner if the wagon becomes more serious, but the fact it didn't actually change despite bladescape being tied for lead wagon for a while... then again, I don't think bladescape would have thought he was in serious danger.

Can I get thoughts on the above? Zelphas, I'd also like your thoughts on... well, anything, really. Who are the wolves?

- - - Updated - - -

Farmerbink is... null, I think. New, likes RPing, don't know if he's a wolf. I could get a mild townlean for stuff I don't want to mention rn if I squinted.

Thoughts on... swirls random question generator the Meta/AV debate, Rogan and the Zelphas post I quoted above?

- - - Updated - - -


I mean, 9/15 are voting in groups of 3 so like, a wolf in there makes sense.

But I don't see why you wouldn't vote a Wolf read? Like yeah, ties are fun but they're more fun when you get Wolves in the end? If you push enough it shouldn't be too hard to make another wagon with 3 people on it (I think we can manage 5 wagons of 3 people each?)

Another thing I've been toying with for a while: bladescape is a cryptic bastard and on day one will absolutely prioritise his own amusement over wolfreads. Caoimhin has played with bladescape enough to know this, and still replies with the above.

I do think it looks slightly better as a result of the bladescape flip. If he'd been town I would have been decently suspicious of this. As it is... does a wolf say this to a partner?

Eh... I don't really have a conclusion here. So more thoughts once again appreciated.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey, I actually have questions for Caoimhin relevant to what they've posted: please explain your townleans on Xumtiil and bladescape, particularly the latter.

[Snowblaze]

Wombat is null. I can't read him.

Jeen has enough content to get their own ISO:


There's a wagon already on one quiet player, so I'll add a second vote on flat_footed to see if both get talking.

So, if a building burns down N1, let's consider if we should kill the narrator in case of a bastard play.
Or... since no Denarius, does this mean the Narrator might be a secret townie instead of a secret wolf/serial killer and we shouldn't kill them. Eh, hopefully no night fires and we don't have to care.

- - - Updated - - -

On my activity level: my wife's going out of town Friday through Monday, and it's me and the kids, so I will be online relatively little this weekend. Should be able to be on Friday afternoon and Monday afternoon, and check in nights if the baby goes to sleep without mama. (It's his first time away from her, so... might will be rough.)
Getting wagons moving is pro-town but not towny.


Slight distancing between wolf!gac3 and wolf!Cao, or just gac3 innocently pointing out Cao's mistake. Which I admit does seem off for him, and the timestamps don't make it look like just a post was written while Cao was writing one.

The flat_footed wagon is a bit too big for my taste now for early D1 randomness, so I'll shift to CaoimhinTheCape
I do like this switch, "flat wagon is too big" is a thought I had around the same time. Caoimhin vote is Fine(TM). It is slightly weird that they pointed out gac correcting the vote count but not me doing the same, but that's just personal bias and given gac is probably town nothing to be concerned about.


The non-answer of this answer (though excellent roleplaying) makes me suspicious that perhaps Farmerbink is wolf and his scumbuddies told him how we don't lynch new players D1 without really good reason. (Or at least such was the metagame when I stopped playing about a year ago, and I assume it's the same now that I've resumed games.) He could be staying quiet to give no info to us, while essentially being shielded from a lynch.

On the other hand, there being almost no reason makes sense D1 (as none of us have any info), and I can see someone wanting to create a high-count wagon to see how folk react and to get real discussion going early on. Though it seems odd not to admit such.
So not really sure how to take this.

If flat_footed flips wolf, then Farmerbink is probably town. Even though it's possible votes will shift a lot, I don't see a wolf putting a 4th vote on a wolf in hopes that the wagon disspates before Day's end. And I do like deaths to yield some intel, which flat_footed's death might now actually do... still, not gonna shift my vote back to flat_footed (at least yet).
Eh, disagree with this interpretation. Don't think it's particularly AI though. Mentioning lynching for information fits with previous town meta, at least. (Also auto-correct now wants me to say meta with a capital M.)

Snowblaze, thank you for asking this.
I could see a wolf asking a scumbuddy this, but I think one wouldn't draw attention. I lean town on Snowblaze if either of those flip wolf. But if they flip town, doesn't mean anything for Snowblaze's alignment: a wolf would be fine drawing suspicion on townies, and a townie could legitimately ask townies.
Yeah. Still not a massive fan of this post. Maybe it's more bias but. Thanking me for asking a question is... if you think it needs to be asked, why not just do it yourself?

Also I would have no problem with asking that to a partner. It's not a hard question and can easily be brushed with a semi-plausible answer. But then again Jeen hasn't seen my wolfgame since... they were in the original Percy Jackson iirc. Though those circumstances were a bit special.

On the other hand, it's also Not A Good Look (NAGL, right?) if someone is overly defensive or trying to save themselves. D1 is usually a townie lynched and little gained, so I could see Town!Flat_Footed accepting this is his game for a D1 lynch and being cool with it, especially if his power is mediocre.

If it was later in the game, I'd perhaps agree, but as is I'm not persuaded.
Again, flat_footed dying gives some info (although perhaps someone else on the wagon-tie would give more--haven't had time to think through it all) so I'm not opposed to his death. Hoping to read over discussion and see if I want to move my vote or not.
Defending flat is good, I guess. The overall stance is fine, pretty sure I've been in a similar position as town.

I haven't fully read up on everything or even clear on the current votecount, but I think we learn stuff if dies, so putting my vote back there.

---
On AV and Metastachdyium

I'll also note that AV has faked arguments with a wolf while a wolf, and she's argued passionately when not townie... but I'd also agree I doubt they are scumbuddies.
If flat flips wolf, some heat on Metastachdyium and some townlean on AV. (Though I wouldn't put it past wolf!AV to argue against a townie kinda defending a wolf-up-for-lynch for the purpose of gaining towncred and hoping to lynch them D2.)

- - - Updated - - -

I screwed up some formatting.
flat_footed
flat vote is acceptable unless we're in a weird wolf!gac world. Actually how implausible is that? I'm realising that clearing someone based on "bladescape totally wouldn't bus" might not be the best idea. Will check that next.

Analysis of Meta/AV is pretty surface-level but given not fully caught up and that I don't really have many thoughts on it myself beyond "unproductive and likely TvT" I can't really wolfread it.


So a day-vig, eh? Neat.

On the bag of denarii, I'm guessing that means the wolves have a third power and bladescape's was to fool a seer. Like, plant a denarius on a person to make it seem like they are wolf to a seer.

I have two powers like bladescape had posted, so I reckon most of us have two powers and the wolves get a third.

- - - Updated - - -

FYI: I think my website cache screwed up or something, because I thought the last post was just a few after bladescape's flip... but I see a whole page was after that.
Also have two powers, so that theory seems reasonable. Speculation doesn't seem like TMI, I think.

If I had a 1-shot power and thought I might die N1 or even D1 if votes changed quickly (not saying the latter applied this game), I would feel tempted to use it.
Not sure why Snowblaze (she claimed it, right?) would target bladescape, but I feel she had a good sense of reading him from last game, so maybe some tipped her off. Or, if she's neutral hunting someone in particular (as maybe the RP thought was hinting), then perhaps one of his half-obscured statements made her think he was the target.

Again, haven't had time to read everything, so might be off.
I do not know how to read bladescape. I may be making progress towards that but I don't think... actually, wait a second, I tinfoiled him while I was dead but had him as a townlean D1 when I was alive so... need to check whether Jeen read through deadchat/saw that tinfoil.

I don't think thinking I claimed to shoot bladescape is AI.


A few points of concern, but overall I think it fits with their established town meta. I don't know if that's enough to put them above null, but I'm not interested in killing them rn unless it turns out they weren't aware of deadchat.

- - - Updated - - -

Jeen died N2 last game, and did show up in deadchat l. I haven't seen them directly reference my bladescape tinfoil but they were almost certainly aware of it. So that's not a concern.

[Rogan]

Vote Count
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Zelphas, Snowblaze, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen, gac3
Metastachydium: Book Wombat
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark

No Vote: Togo
(Quoted for reference of the vote count)


Nothing worth noting. I have some suspicions, but they're very tenuous and I'd like to see a lot more conversations going before I start flinging mud at people.

If we do end up with a three or four-way tie that's all town, I expect to see very little movement or discussion, so we might need to start poking some other people to get a reaction from the Denarians.

Question for everyone: considering how many players we have and that it's a power heavy game, how many Denarians do you think we're dealing with here?

So, questions for Xum (feel free to wait with your answer):
What happened to your suspensions? I think you presented one, but not the other?
Since we had at least one wolf in the three way tie, do you think the Denarians tried to shake things up? If yes, who?

Answer to the question:
I'm pretty confident there will be at least one neutral, considering the things Bat (thanks for the narrative, Bat!) Said in recruitment. I'm also pretty sure that nearly everyone was unhappy about the ratio of wolves to town last game, so I doubt we will see the exact same ratio of alignments this time. (3 neutral, 4 wolves, 8 town if I recall correctly)
4 wolves is possible and should be used for worst case calculations. 3 is possible as well, but I'd guess there would be an unhelpful neutral in this case, to avoid it being too town sided. I might come back to this question after night end, when we know the number of deaths per circle.


Eh, at this point I think outing whatever suspicions you have is the most effective way of getting discussion moving.

And three or four. I'd go with three if I was narrating. Also depends on the number of neutrals we have. (We can have neutrals, right? I need to reread recruitment thread.)

See above regarding the neutral part.


Neutrals weren't planned but were possible, if I remember correctly.

Also I'm operating under the assumption of four, and I'd agree with you but I can't tell you why I'm suspecting the people I'm suspecting and it's very likely to change between this and tomorrow. I promise you a reads list then.

This tomorrow, did you mean RL tomorrow or game tomorrow?

[Snowblaze]

Turns out having time to churn out analysis does not equal having motivation to churn out analysis.

Anyway, on brief skim through gac's ISO there is no mention of bladescape in a good number of posts. Also I have questions:

- who were your early game suspects, and do you still suspect them?

- you mentioned getting some good votes in, but you voted for (iirc) Book Wombat and Caoimhin, neither of whom have flipped. Explain?

- - - Updated - - -

I think I feel fine about gac for now, despite my earlier paranoia. Town!gac does tend to have a lot of weird logic. Just... shouldn't dismiss the possibility of wolf!gac worlds.

[Batcathat]

(thanks for the narrative, Bat!)

You're welcome. It's quite fun so far, though more stressful than I had imagined (I figured not having to worry about analyzing and/or tricking other people would make it more relaxing than playing, but instead I'm just worried about screwing something up :smalltongue: ). That said, being basically omniscient appeals to my ego, so that's neat.

[Rogan]

I mean, 9/15 are voting in groups of 3 so like, a wolf in there makes sense.

But I don't see why you wouldn't vote a Wolf read? Like yeah, ties are fun but they're more fun when you get Wolves in the end? If you push enough it shouldn't be too hard to make another wagon with 3 people on it (I think we can manage 5 wagons of 3 people each?)

Gut likes this after the flip of blades. But I didn't start overthinking this or putting it into context yet.


Initially thought flat hadn't posted much, but looking back over things, flat has a number of posts, they're just not substantial for the most part. Five posts, and three votes among them, and little substance to back those votes up (or indeed, substance of any other kind). Not even really complaining about their wagon or making a real push on someone else. Gut reaction is that I'd expect town!flat to have a bit more of a fire under them at this point to give town something worthwhile, and instead he's shutting up and posting funny gifs. That's NAGL.


On the other hand, it's also Not A Good Look (NAGL, right?) if someone is overly defensive or trying to save themselves. D1 is usually a townie lynched and little gained, so I could see Town!Flat_Footed accepting this is his game for a D1 lynch and being cool with it, especially if his power is mediocre.

If it was later in the game, I'd perhaps agree, but as is I'm not persuaded.
Again, flat_footed dying gives some info (although perhaps someone else on the wagon-tie would give more--haven't had time to think through it all) so I'm not opposed to his death. Hoping to read over discussion and see if I want to move my vote or not.

(Not quoted: Meta, who disagreed with AV)

On the surface level, AV looks bad here for pushing a Town wagon ignoring a wolf wagon. But Town can be wrong much easier than scum, cause scum needs to fake it while for town, being wrong comes naturally.
The (slight exaggeration) shouting match between AV and Meta doesn't feel faked. I'm a bit more curious about Jeen. I hope, RL will allow some more input from his side.
I guess these posts should be analyzed a bit more for possible / impossible pairs. Consider that at least one wolf was a wagon candidate at this time and one townie. Definitely get back to this if/ when Snow flips.



If I seem eager to talk about Dresden Files lore, it might be because I'm already starting to feel the burden of narrating. Knowing everything but not able to talk about anything. :smalltongue:

Nice hint at the existence of a necromancer. After all, without this you would have had two nice young lady's to talk about things in the dead chat. Not spoilering too much, of course, but at least hinting and teasing.
But thanks for the reminder. I should really think twice if I want to include ways for the dead chat to influence the game, when it's my turn to be the narrator.


In case anybody is wondering what I'm doing: just reading the game again without doing ISOs and instead looking at things I might have missed or which might have a different interpretation after the flips. I try to limit myself a bit, asking questions to be answered later or answering questions which don't feel like they influence the night actions very much.

[Rogan]

The answer to this is simple. I wanted to unpaid the collective group of Flat/AV/Meta thinking no way all three are wolves with that encounter. ((I'm leaning towards two being town))

Question for tomorrow:
Do you still feel like there is a wolf on this group, now that you know flat wasn't one of them? If yes, who? If no, can you describe what made you change your mind?

[Valmark]

I haven't been feeling well these last couple days (almost haven't even red the thread). Batcathat, if there's anybody willing to replace me I'd be more then happy to switch out, I just don't think I can pay much attention any time soon.

[Rogan]

I haven't been feeling well these last couple days (almost haven't even red the thread). Batcathat, if there's anybody willing to replace me I'd be more then happy to switch out, I just don't think I can pay much attention any time soon.

Sad to hear this. I hope, you will feel better soon!



It might be time to write up a legacy read list, but... I don't think I have anything substancial to say right now.

Lets go with: Don't forget the questions I've asked during the night. Make sure you get some answers.

[Snowblaze]

Sad to hear this. I hope, you will feel better soon!



It might be time to write up a legacy read list, but... I don't think I have anything substancial to say right now.

Lets go with: Don't forget the questions I've asked during the night. Make sure you get some answers.

Sounds good. Mutual pact: if one of us dies the other will make sure their questions get answered?

I don't have that much of a conclusive legacy either, so... *shrug* assuming I live I will try to get some more definite conclusions.

Sorry, Valmark, and hope you feel better soon.

[Batcathat]

Night 1 has ended

Please hold for the resolution.

- - - Updated - - -

Even with everything that's going on, people eventually had to go to their rooms and sleep – or lie awake terrified as the case may be. But as dawn broke, it was clear that not everyone had been resting.

The first body found was a woman in a dark robe, who had evidently been killed by magic in a similar manner to Harry Dresden.

The second body was a balding and bespectacled man, with an entry wound in his chest the size of some sort of small fruit and a considerably larger exit wound in his back.



AvatarVecna has died, they were Kumori.

You are Kumori, a mysterious necromancer of unclear allegiances (but for the sake of this game, a loyal member of town).

Chatting with the spirits: You have access to the Deadchat and may post there while still alive, if you wish to.
Channelling the spirits: Once per game, you may pick one character power of an available dead character and gain it as your own for the rest of the game.


No Denarius was found on the body.



Rogan has died, they were Samuel Peabody.

You are Samuel Peabody, a far too influential clerk working for the Senior Council.

I handle the paperwork: Your vote always count as two votes.
Mind-controlling ink: Once per game, you can add an additional 10 votes when deciding who to lynch.


No Denarius was found on the body.




Day 2 has started

It will end 6 pm (European Central Time) on Tuesday

(That is a little less than 48 hours as of this post)

- - - Updated - - -


I haven't been feeling well these last couple days (almost haven't even red the thread). Batcathat, if there's anybody willing to replace me I'd be more then happy to switch out, I just don't think I can pay much attention any time soon.

Sorry to hear that, hope you'll feel better soon. I don't have any replacements lined up, but I'll see if I can find any. If no replacement shows up in a reasonable amount of time, would you prefer to get autolynched or to remain as a possibly inactive player for the time being?

Speaking of replacements, there's still no word from Togo and I've decided that if that's still the case by end of Night 2, Togo will be either replaced (if I can find a replacement) or autolynched.

[Xumtiil]

Whelp, he's dead, but I'm still going to respond to his questions:


So, questions for Xum (feel free to wait with your answer):
What happened to your suspensions? I think you presented one, but not the other?
Since we had at least one wolf in the three way tie, do you think the Denarians tried to shake things up? If yes, who?


Gac was the only one I could clearly formulate my suspicion on. There were other things I found odd, like Rogan's jump off Gac to Flat after Bladescape's death, with just a few minutes before EOD, but now seeing the power it makes sense - Rogan staying on Gac would have meant it was still effectively tied, and questions would be asked if Gac still flipped.

Need to re-read the thread now and re-evaluate everything, with both Rogan and AV coming up town. Still leaning meta as town and gac as sus, to be honest.

[Book Wombat]

Uhh, so we probably have two vigilantes? Or one who has multiple kill powers? This doesn't seem good.

[Snowblaze]

Welp, RIP Rogan and AV.

Flavour suggests AV was wolf kill, if I'm interpreting it correctly. I have no idea what the Rogan kill was. Maybe I'm biased because I townread them but I didn't think he was a likely vig shot.

Xumtiil, if you think gac is a wolf, what do you make of bladescape's vote for them?

Going to wait to vote until more people have checked in/I've had some time to think. In the meantime, as promised: answer Rogan's questions, please!

[Xumtiil]

Bladescape's vote for gac could just be early towncred gathering, to be honest. Not knowing Rogan's powers it's easy to think you can just bow out of a Gac wagon and get Flat lynched instead.

[gac3]

Bladescape's vote for gac could just be early towncred gathering, to be honest. Not knowing Rogan's powers it's easy to think you can just bow out of a Gac wagon and get Flat lynched instead.

Will say, I completely agree here. I am still not fully caught up but I don't really think the situation should give me town credit. Just because blade voted me.

[Xumtiil]

Uhh, so we probably have two vigilantes? Or one who has multiple kill powers? This doesn't seem good.

Plenty of options here. Serial killer, JOAT, single use kill powers tailored for a specific Dresden-lore character. Possibly one of the Denarians had a kill power outside of the night kill, or it could have been a stray town shot. Too many options and too early to tell, especially since I expect no one is going to come out and claim on D2 unless they're forced.

Speaking of forcing, Gac3. I don't think you have sufficiently explained yourself and there are outstanding Rogan questions waiting for you.

[gac3]

Plenty of options here. Serial killer, JOAT, single use kill powers tailored for a specific Dresden-lore character. Possibly one of the Denarians had a kill power outside of the night kill, or it could have been a stray town shot. Too many options and too early to tell, especially since I expect no one is going to come out and claim on D2 unless they're forced.

Speaking of forcing, Gac3. I don't think you have sufficiently explained yourself and there are outstanding Rogan questions waiting for you.

Cool. I'll go look for those.

[Batcathat]

For something a bit more serious: Can you tell us if the fake coins had mechanical meaning or were just fluff?

I missed this earlier (you know that feeling when you don't get around to answering a question until the guy asking you is dead? :smalltongue: ). Yes, the coins have some sort of meaning.

[gac3]

Question for tomorrow:
Do you still feel like there is a wolf on this group, now that you know flat wasn't one of them? If yes, who? If no, can you describe what made you change your mind?

Well the two I was leaning towards being town were AV and Meta. So with flat and AV now dead, I think I'm still town leaning Meta. Might go back and reread the argument though, with the newer information.

- - - Updated - - -


gac: I don't understand your post. It would be nice if you could explain, maybe tomorrow, maybe shortly before EoN (if you fear getting killed). Also include the part about your early day suspicions.

Which post?

Okay. So I'll need to go back and find the posts that were giving me a weird vibe and I still want to compare the posts to previous games to see if it's all in my head/bad memory. But I was suspicious of Jeen. Something about his early posts specifically felt wolfy to me but also would have looked very OMG US if I had said it then. I had a lesser suspicion of Cape but that was more tied to the idea that If Jeen=wolf then cape=suspicious.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I was blocked last night. If anybody was wondering.

[Xumtiil]

Anyway, on brief skim through gac's ISO there is no mention of bladescape in a good number of posts. Also I have questions:

- who were your early game suspects, and do you still suspect them?

- you mentioned getting some good votes in, but you voted for (iirc) Book Wombat and Caoimhin, neither of whom have flipped. Explain?


Some more Snow questions for you to look at, Gac.

[gac3]

Some more Snow questions for you to look at, Gac.


Turns out having time to churn out analysis does not equal having motivation to churn out analysis.

Anyway, on brief skim through gac's ISO there is no mention of bladescape in a good number of posts. Also I have questions:

- who were your early game suspects, and do you still suspect them?

- you mentioned getting some good votes in, but you voted for (iirc) Book Wombat and Caoimhin, neither of whom have flipped. Explain?

- - - Updated - - -

I think I feel fine about gac for now, despite my earlier paranoia. Town!gac does tend to have a lot of weird logic. Just... shouldn't dismiss the possibility of wolf!gac worlds.

Ah thank you.

I've already told my suspects. Jeen/Cape. More Jeen than Cape. I targetted Jeen but was blocked somehow. My suspicion of them has not gone away yet but is not heavily proof based.

Book I voted for the same reason I wasn't going to vote AV day one. With no evidence to go off of for an opening vote I fully planned to vote Book. AV was off limits as an active player who participated hard and usually dies early. Book is the opposite. Not super contributory but frequently survives really long. So a day one vote on them was good.

Cape was because I didn't think I could get Jeen lynched to test my suspicions.

[Farmerbink]

So, I will readily admit I was not prepared for the pace of play. I'm also markedly less jazzed about how well the game is going with two townies dead overnight and.... basically nothing to show for it, it seems.

Finally, I thought I would have something resembling useful information to share. Instead, I have only the absence of useful information, that I feel is probably supposed to be information in itself... that I don't particularly understand.

With no one to trust, and little to add, I struggle to see a valuable next step. Compound that with the obvious of "we lose if we don't figure out the wolves- quickly," I... am not optimistic.

I'd love for someone to explain what I'm missing, and will probably offer the limited info I've got soon, but I'd like to have better reads on... well, anyone. :smalleek:

[Valmark]

Sorry to hear that, hope you'll feel better soon. I don't have any replacements lined up, but I'll see if I can find any. If no replacement shows up in a reasonable amount of time, would you prefer to get autolynched or to remain as a possibly inactive player for the time being?

Speaking of replacements, there's still no word from Togo and I've decided that if that's still the case by end of Night 2, Togo will be either replaced (if I can find a replacement) or autolynched.

I think it'd be better if the thread decided. I'd say autolynch though since if I stay people might end up needing to waste actions/a lynch to find out my alignment, and I've been offline enough that I didn't even see the Night Phase.

[JeenLeen]

It seems odd for a game this small (not that we're really small), but maybe there's a neutral day-vig, a town vig, and a wolf kill each Day/Night cycle.
Alternatively, I could see a 1-shot day-vig.

I'll have time to read more and respond better Monday afternoon, but...


Also I was blocked last night. If anybody was wondering.


Ah thank you.

I've already told my suspects. Jeen/Cape. More Jeen than Cape. I targetted Jeen but was blocked somehow. My suspicion of them has not gone away yet but is not heavily proof based.

Book I voted for the same reason I wasn't going to vote AV day one. With no evidence to go off of for an opening vote I fully planned to vote Book. AV was off limits as an active player who participated hard and usually dies early. Book is the opposite. Not super contributory but frequently survives really long. So a day one vote on them was good.

Cape was because I didn't think I could get Jeen lynched to test my suspicions.

@gac3: do you mind sharing the exact text you got from the Narrator?


So, I will readily admit I was not prepared for the pace of play. I'm also markedly less jazzed about how well the game is going with two townies dead overnight and.... basically nothing to show for it, it seems.

Finally, I thought I would have something resembling useful information to share. Instead, I have only the absence of useful information, that I feel is probably supposed to be information in itself... that I don't particularly understand.

With no one to trust, and little to add, I struggle to see a valuable next step. Compound that with the obvious of "we lose if we don't figure out the wolves- quickly," I... am not optimistic.

I'd love for someone to explain what I'm missing, and will probably offer the limited info I've got soon, but I'd like to have better reads on... well, anyone. :smalleek:

Some games go like that, but I've seen games start with a heavy wolf lead and end in the wolves' loss. And sometimes the non-info early on can be the clue to victory near the end.
I'd encourage you to keep on, but I understand if the game feels more like a chore than fun and don't want to obligate you to that.

- - - Updated - - -


Plenty of options here. Serial killer, JOAT, single use kill powers tailored for a specific Dresden-lore character. Possibly one of the Denarians had a kill power outside of the night kill, or it could have been a stray town shot. Too many options and too early to tell, especially since I expect no one is going to come out and claim on D2 unless they're forced.

Good point. Probably not as many repeatable kill powers as I was originally thinking.

Did Snowblaze claim the bladescape kill and/or any alignment?
Even if she's neutral, she did kill a wolf D1, so I'm feeling keeping her around.

[gac3]

@gac3: do you mind sharing the exact text you got from the Narrator?


You receive no information from your action.

[Farmerbink]

*squints suspiciously*

Not at you gac. At... everything.

[Zelphas]

I'm finally able to post again, and four are dead, only one a wolf. Good Lord, that was bad timing for IRL to suddenly get ludicrous.

I saw in my skim that someone had a question for me; I'll answer it tomorrow, I want to get a post up showing that I am still alive.

No vote yet today; I need to actually read what's happening.

[Batcathat]

Announcement

As previously discussed, Valmark will be leaving the game and will be replaced by Xihirli.

Valmark: Thanks for playing, hope you'll feel better soon.

Xi: Welcome to the game, you should have received all the necessary information by PM.

[Snowblaze]

Jeen:

I'm not claiming the bladescape shot. What gave you the impression I was?


Zelphas: I asked you a question, would like some reads in general and wolfreads in particular.

Farmerbink: this isn't a catastrophic position by any means. I've seen town win from far worse situations than this. Also if you don't have useful information I'd advise against claiming early, since knowing your role and powers helps wolves a lot.

I can't say what you're missing, but I guess I'd recommend rereading the thread and looking for stuff that might be suspicious: contradictions, things that don't make sense, people who could be defending bladescape or being defended by bladescape, things that just seem suspicious on a gut level even though you can't articulate it.

I think I asked you some questions during night phase, so would also be great if you could answer those; I'll go back and quote them shortly.

It would be great to get more votes down so we can get the day going properly. In order to not be a hypocrite, I'll poke CaoimhinTheCape, because I don't want to kill gac, and I'm mildly suspicious of their bladescape townread.

And hi Xihirli, thoughts are appreciated.

- - - Updated - - -


Zelphas, I'd also like your thoughts on... well, anything, really. Who are the wolves?

- - - Updated - - -

Farmerbink (snipped)

Thoughts on... swirls random question generator the Meta/AV debate, Rogan and the Zelphas post I quoted above?

- - - Updated - - -

Hey, I actually have questions for Caoimhin relevant to what they've posted: please explain your townleans on Xumtiil and bladescape, particularly the latter.

Relevant questions for Zelphas, Farmerbink and Caoimhin. "The Zelphas post quoted above" refers to his initial vote on bladescape on page one.

[Xihirli]

Hey all, what's up. I'm like Valmark, except EVEN LATER in the alphabet.
I was securing a job all day, so I'll try to sleep now. Catch up later!

[Xumtiil]

Hey all, what's up. I'm like Valmark, except EVEN LATER in the alphabet.
I was securing a job all day, so I'll try to sleep now. Catch up later!

Not as late in the alphabet as I am, though.

So - 15 player game, assuming an 11-4 split:
If we can trust all the flips, it's 3 town and 1 Denarian dead, so we're currently at 8-3, except Togo is MIA. Xihirli saved Valmark's spot, so assuming Togo is town and will autolynch, we're effectively running on 7-3.
Not insurmountable, but it is kinda threatening.

Looking forward to Xihirli's thoughts and Cao's responses - if anyone has any questions for me, I'm all ears.

[Snowblaze]

You're basically the player I know has done stuff but just don't have any thoughts on this game, so there will definitely be questions incoming. But first:

Xumtiil used reflect. Flat_footed is voted instead!
OMGUS, NAI. I could argue that hopping on the wagon is opportunistic, but...

To be honest I just voted flat because "NO U".

For the sake of having some discussion, let me tie up two wagons.

Hello Snowblaze my old friend, I've come to stalk to you again...
...he immediately hopped off the wagon, making that point invalid. I think he had the option to vote bladescape here but didn't (will check) but I can understand town!Xumtiil wanting to wagon me for the memes.


A three way tie, and now I'm supposed to not blink for 40ish hours. Curse you, Rogan, for finding my one weakness.
evil laughter

More seriously, NAI.

Love you too Snowblaze.

Also, you can't lose - either you survive, as usual, or you get to join Taffimai and Elenna in the dead chat for fun and games, like "find the sus" and "interpretative tunnelbuilding dance".

- - - Updated - - -

You made one fatal mistake. Only AvatarVecna can force me to blink. :p
NAI.


Nothing worth noting. I have some suspicions, but they're very tenuous and I'd like to see a lot more conversations going before I start flinging mud at people.

If we do end up with a three or four-way tie that's all town, I expect to see very little movement or discussion, so we might need to start poking some other people to get a reaction from the Denarians.

Question for everyone: considering how many players we have and that it's a power heavy game, how many Denarians do you think we're dealing with here?
Eh... I think in the relatively slow day one we were having it's more pro-town to just out your suspicions, however tenuous, than to just ask questions about mechanics. That's probably more a playstyle difference than anything AI, though.

Also I vaguely noted the "all town tie" could be TMI but we know it wasn't all town now. Could be setting up to move wagons to people who aren't bladescape, though.

Neutrals weren't planned but were possible, if I remember correctly.

Also I'm operating under the assumption of four, and I'd agree with you but I can't tell you why I'm suspecting the people I'm suspecting and it's very likely to change between this and tomorrow. I promise you a reads list then.
I don't recall you actually delivering on this promise. Question found. Don't think it's particularly AI to have not provided it.

To clarify, I can't tell you because I can't put my finger on it, not because I have secret info
Fair, but NAI.


I'm definitely unpairing AV and Metastachydium, for some reason. Can't really put my finger on it.
If I squint I could argue that just giving the debate a "not w/w" read rather than digging into the alignments of either is wolfy.


Not alignment indicative, but accidental impalement may also occur.

If there's a tie, usually decided by random. Would be stated in the rules, if not then assume random.

- - - Updated - - -

And there's a town vote to kill someone every day, and at night the baddies come out to play. Look at me being a poet.
Helpful but NAI.


Just to let you know, in all seriousness, the community here will usually not kill a new player day one unless they're really impressively obviously a wolf, and even then it's doubtful.

We want everyone to have fun, and being slaughtered a few hours in on your very first game(s) is decidedly not that.

Considering this is my fourth game, I'm expecting my newness has worn off and I'm fair game now, so one of these times I'll probably end up in dead chat a lot faster than I'd have liked (although I can highly recommend the company awaiting us there!).
Agreed, but still NAI.


Not much AI content to go on. iirc there's more in the second half which should be helpful. Nullish for now.

You promised a reads list D2, please provide one.

- - - Updated - - -

Can confirm bladescape was on two votes as of Xumtiil's vote for me.

- - - Updated - - -


I know tensions are running high, what with traitors and all, but both of you are giving me a headache with all that shouting. Why don't you grab something to eat? Always works for me.

Agreed, but NAI.


I had promised some reads, so here they are:

Meta and AV unpaired both townleaning, Bladescape always scum until proven otherwise, everyone else null, except:

D1 and there are people he wants to kill?

Also; it was clear from the recruitment thread and introduction post, and still:

And lastly

Gac: Wolf team is not these people?
Snow: Hey Gac why am I in that list?
Gac: Because *lazy handwaving gesture*

It's triggering me in ways I can't even describe, and as much as I want to hold on to my comfortable D1-Snow-vote-blanket, I think it's time to put some pressure on gac3
Townleans on Meta and AV mean my original concern goes away. I'm trying to work out whether the bladescape read is partnery or not and getting lost in WIFOMy spirals so calling it NAI.

I... don't like the gac case. I need to check the exact wording for the first part but wanting to kill people on D1 isn't wolfy and I actually thought they had a similar "I have suspicions, but they're not very confident so I'm going to keep quiet for now" thing to what you did.

The second part is just something I personally try not to read into too much and not what I'd use as the basis of a case. And the third part: I was fine with gac's response to me, and I don't think there's an evident wolfy motivation for it.

That's enough of "why I disagree with Xumtiil's gac case", let's have some "what does Xumtiil's gac case say about his alignment". I don't think it's terrible. The latter two points I can understand, the third in particular probably comes from someone who just isn't that familiar with "weird town!gac logic" yet. The first is more concerning, and I think digging into that will be more productive.

(This sort of counts as a reads list, I guess, but another one will be helpful anyway.)

I don't know Meta, and I do know AV could get all upset about stuff like this as a wolf, but it all feels very towny to me for now... Hence lean. Slight one, but definitely away from null.

- - - Updated - - -

And with Bladescape voting gac, if my numbers are correct, gac is actually on the chopping block right now with 4 votes vs 3 for flat
"Feels very towny" isn't the most insightful read. Vote numbers are helpful but NAI.


Would it help if I voted for you again? It's a very comfortable vote.
I would wolfread this except iirc he did something similar as toen last game. So NAI.


Whelp, he's dead, but I'm still going to respond to his questions:

Gac was the only one I could clearly formulate my suspicion on. There were other things I found odd, like Rogan's jump off Gac to Flat after Bladescape's death, with just a few minutes before EOD, but now seeing the power it makes sense - Rogan staying on Gac would have meant it was still effectively tied, and questions would be asked if Gac still flipped.

Need to re-read the thread now and re-evaluate everything, with both Rogan and AV coming up town. Still leaning meta as town and gac as sus, to be honest.
Need to go back and check Rogan's questions to get proper context. I understood the switches from gac to flat since the former gained towncred from bladescape's flip (imo).


Bladescape's vote for gac could just be early towncred gathering, to be honest. Not knowing Rogan's powers it's easy to think you can just bow out of a Gac wagon and get Flat lynched instead.
Not... necessarily? It's a risk, and he went to sleep with his vote still on gac. There's a very good chance gac would have died there if the shot hadn't happened. Anyway, I could see this as a wolf just not wanting to have to find someone else to suspect.

Plenty of options here. Serial killer, JOAT, single use kill powers tailored for a specific Dresden-lore character. Possibly one of the Denarians had a kill power outside of the night kill, or it could have been a stray town shot. Too many options and too early to tell, especially since I expect no one is going to come out and claim on D2 unless they're forced.

Speaking of forcing, Gac3. I don't think you have sufficiently explained yourself and there are outstanding Rogan questions waiting for you.
Decently like the first part, since iirc it was a reply to a slightly weird Wombat post. Pressure vote is... I guess consistent with his play so far?


Some more Snow questions for you to look at, Gac.
Helpful but NAI.

And last post which I can't be bothered to quote: yeah, if we started with four wolves we're in a worse position than I thought.


Okay, I was partly wrong on the reads list thing but I still think it would be helpful to get another one, preferably with fewer nulls.

And can you explain why gac wanting to kill people on D1 is wolfy?

There are concerns, but also counterarguments: I tend to hard wolfread town!Xumtiil and some of my points feel like I might be holding him to too high a standard considering he's still relatively new.

Also, have you reached any new conclusions from your re-evaluation?

Going to check context for a few things.

- - - Updated - - -



I kinda want to move to make a wagon competing with flat but I'm not sure anyone of the other wagons with at least two people look super appealing. None of the people I most want to kill are on there.

Okay, I can kind of see why Xumtiil would find this wolfy, but iirc gac talked a bit more about it, clarifying their point, and Xumtiil didn't reference that.

- - - Updated - - -

On Xumtiil's responses to Rogan:

You mentioned tentative suspicions, plural, implying you were suspicious of more than one player. This was before Rogan's switch to flat which you mentioned in your answer. Did you have any other suspects as of the "tentative suspicions" post, and if so who and why? (Doesn't have to be any kind of confidence or articulatable reasons.)

Also you didn't really answer the second question on whether wolves were trying to shake things up during the three-way tie.

- - - Updated - - -

gac, can you elaborate on what you didn't like about Jeen's early posts and why you thought their being a wolf would make Caoimhin more suspicious?

- - - Updated - - -

More questions, Xumtiil: reads on me, Caoimhin and Jeen, please and thank you.

[Xumtiil]

Okay, I was partly wrong on the reads list thing but I still think it would be helpful to get another one, preferably with fewer nulls.

Yeah, I said I'd do a reads list but then my reads were all solidly absent except for the AV/Meta unpairing and slight townlean, and the Gac suspicion. I didn't get as much time as I wanted to look through the thread, but I'm still planning to do so and give a more in-depth reads list.


And can you explain why gac wanting to kill people on D1 is wolfy?

Okay, I can kind of see why Xumtiil would find this wolfy, but iirc gac talked a bit more about it, clarifying their point, and Xumtiil didn't reference that.

I'm not excluding the possibility that it's just Gacness that is triggering me, and you do have a good point on Bladescape dropping on Gac and staying there. For now my vote can stay on gac, as I don't really have any alternatives yet and I do want to properly analyse his replies.



Also, have you reached any new conclusions from your re-evaluation?

See above - still coming.

- - - Updated - - -

Jeen was someone I was suspicious of but couldn't properly articulate.

I'm leaning you to being town, Jeen I'm not sure, and I haven't paid enough attention to Cao - their posts felt very under-the-radar to me, which by itself is cause for concern. As above, still re-analysing.

- - - Updated - - -

As for the three way tie... Not sure. I have a suspicion it was a three way town tie and they just had some fun with it.

[Snowblaze]

Okay, I'll give you time to re-evaluate and produce some more reads. Though one thing: am I missing something or are you saying the three-way tie which contained flipped wolf bladescape could have been all town?

[Togo]

Togo could just be being very quiet as a cunning cunning strategem.

...Hey! What's all this talk of autolynching? Ok, maybe not so cunning...

[Snowblaze]

Togo could just be being very quiet as a cunning cunning strategem.

...Hey! What's all this talk of autolynching? Ok, maybe not so cunning...

Yay, glad you made it!

Would be great if you can read through things and let us know who you think the wolves are.

[Togo]

I'm kinda new to playing this online, so still reading through.

[Batcathat]

I'm kinda new to playing this online, so still reading through.

Yeah, I imagine it'll take a while to read everything, but the end of Day 2 isn't until tomorrow so take your time.

If you have any questions you'd prefer not to ask in public, feel free to PM me.

Anyway, welcome to the game. Better late than never. :smallsmile:

[Xumtiil]

Okay, I'll give you time to re-evaluate and produce some more reads. Though one thing: am I missing something or are you saying the three-way tie which contained flipped wolf bladescape could have been all town?

I forgot that Bladescape was the third wagon - I had been toying with the idea in my head that it was a 'three town split' and didn't adjust my mental image when Bladescape flipped.

Again, I'm currently at work and don't have a lot of time, but I will work through things and get back to you.

- - - Updated - - -

And welcome to the party Togo! Glad you're here, this brings the numbers back to a healthier state.

[gac3]

Slight distancing between wolf!gac3 and wolf!Cao, or just gac3 innocently pointing out Cao's mistake. Which I admit does seem off for him, and the timestamps don't make it look like just a post was written while Cao was writing one.

The flat_footed wagon is a bit too big for my taste now for early D1 randomness, so I'll shift to CaoimhinTheCape

This post is what started to throw me off about Jeen. I didn't want to point it out at first because it just felt so off for no good reason. Looking back I think I figured out why it felt off to me. The following two posts contributed. He starts implying that I'm distancing from Cao, which is fine. That's not the part that hit me. Him saying that my method of pointing out the mistake seems off. Which I disagree with. But whether I disagree with it or not, they said I was acting out of character and then voted Cape instead of me. That didn't seem right.

Which really my cape suspicions went as far as thinking Jeen might be distancing because he voted Cape the same time he accused me of potentially distancing.


The non-answer of this answer (though excellent roleplaying) makes me suspicious that perhaps Farmerbink is wolf and his scumbuddies told him how we don't lynch new players D1 without really good reason. (Or at least such was the metagame when I stopped playing about a year ago, and I assume it's the same now that I've resumed games.) He could be staying quiet to give no info to us, while essentially being shielded from a lynch.

On the other hand, there being almost no reason makes sense D1 (as none of us have any info), and I can see someone wanting to create a high-count wagon to see how folk react and to get real discussion going early on. Though it seems odd not to admit such.
So not really sure how to take this.

If flat_footed flips wolf, then Farmerbink is probably town. Even though it's possible votes will shift a lot, I don't see a wolf putting a 4th vote on a wolf in hopes that the wagon disspates before Day's end. And I do like deaths to yield some intel, which flat_footed's death might now actually do... still, not gonna shift my vote back to flat_footed (at least yet).


Snowblaze, thank you for asking this.
I could see a wolf asking a scumbuddy this, but I think one wouldn't draw attention. I lean town on Snowblaze if either of those flip wolf. But if they flip town, doesn't mean anything for Snowblaze's alignment: a wolf would be fine drawing suspicion on townies, and a townie could legitimately ask townies.

Then the next two posts after that one, felt off because they seemed very "oh this is good. Or it might be bad. Or let's have lots of things said but not actually say much."

[JeenLeen]

You receive no information from your action.

Okay. You weren't blocked per se, but that feedback lines up with how my power should have worked. It unfortunately doesn't let me target the same person twice.

I can see how what I said looks suspicious. In a sense, it was a lot of talking that amounted to nothing, but I was trying to establish how flat_footed's death could yield info on Farmerblink. Maybe. I was also trying to contribute a little bit while staying largely neutral overall in hopes the wolves would think killing me would yield little intel, and thus that they would target me N1 when my power was active.

---

@Snowblaze: this is what made me think you were implying you were the day-vig. Sorry missed your answer to my question right after I asked it the first time.


The wizard smiled to herself. Survival really wasn't that hard in the end; all you had to do was give people a better target. The loss of the flat-footed Warden was regrettable, but she hadn't known him well. It mattered little.

Much more interesting was the fate of the ectomancer. Dead without a trace of harm, that took a skilled wizard. Unfortunately,
this being the White Council, everyone in the room was a skilled wizard. She would have been concerned if the deceased hadn't been possessed. That fact suggested the killer was trying to eliminate the Denarians, which meant they had a common interest. The sooner this was over, the sooner she could return to her... other responsibilities.

(RL looks set to be pretty quiet the next few days. I'm tired now, so hyperposting wolf-murdering Snowblaze will be here tomorrow.)

I thought you were implying you killed bladescape ("wolf-murdering") but were neutral ("other responsibilities").

[Snowblaze]

I was interpreting the "him" in "this seems off for him" as being Caoimhin rather than you, gac. Jeen, can you confirm which one of us is correct?

(That makes sense on the vig!me thing. And actually it's kind of towny for you since presumably wolf!you would have killed me if you thought I was the dayvig.)

- - - Updated - - -

No, wait, that's a bad read, wolves want to kill town rather than neutrals.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Hey, I actually have questions for Caoimhin relevant to what they've posted: please explain your townleans on Xumtiil and bladescape, particularly the latter.

bladescape's town lean was more vibs than anything - there was one set of posts where he posted something and then immediately made a post after where it seemed like he just realized something. I'll grab the quotes if I can find them but it was gut more than anything.

As for Xum, I liked the comments on the Meta/AV arguement particularly for giving both a town lean. My guess is that AV/Meta aren't both Wolves and if Xum was a Wolf they would want to get a mislynch on at least one of them later.



So. I have a couple. Theories. It's a bit weird. Let's get the death flips.



bladescape has died, they were Mortimer Lindqvist.

You are Mortimer Lindqvist, a surprisingly competent ectomancer.

Chatting with the spirits: You have access to the Deadchat and may post there while still alive, if you wish to.
Channelling the spirits: Once per game, you may pick one character power of an available dead character and gain it as your own for the rest of the game.

A Denarius was found on the body. Even more concerning, you find he was carrying an entire bag of denarii, though someone soon points out that there are more coins in the bag than there are Knights of the Blackened Denarius and thus, the coins are most likely false.



flat_footed has died, they were Carlos Ramirez.

You are Carlos Ramirez, a Warden of the White Council, tasked with hunting down those who break the laws of magic.

Once per night...

Put 'em in shackles: ...you may arrest someone and put them in magic suppressing shackles for the rest of the night, meaning they cannot actively use a power.
...or...
Tail 'em: ...you may attempt to follow someone and see who they target.

No Denarius was found on the body.


AvatarVecna has died, they were Kumori.

You are Kumori, a mysterious necromancer of unclear allegiances (but for the sake of this game, a loyal member of town).

Chatting with the spirits: You have access to the Deadchat and may post there while still alive, if you wish to.
Channelling the spirits: Once per game, you may pick one character power of an available dead character and gain it as your own for the rest of the game.


No Denarius was found on the body.



Rogan has died, they were Samuel Peabody.

You are Samuel Peabody, a far too influential clerk working for the Senior Council.

I handle the paperwork: Your vote always count as two votes.
Mind-controlling ink: Once per game, you can add an additional 10 votes when deciding who to lynch.


No Denarius was found on the body.



AV and blade had exactly the same powers (aside from blade's coin bag). blade we're assuming is evil because of the Denarius, the rest we are assuming town. But. I'm not sure if that's fully accurate?




flat_footed 5: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
bladescape 3: Zelphas, Snowblaze, Rogan
Snowblaze 2: Metastachydium, Xumtiil
Valmark 1: Valmark
Xumtiil 1: flat_footed
Metastachydium 1: Book Wombat
CaoimhinTheCape 1: gac3
No posts: Togo

flat 5 / gac0. Noting that blade is currently the #2 wagon.



It's triggering me in ways I can't even describe, and as much as I want to hold on to my comfortable D1-Snow-vote-blanket, I think it's time to put some pressure on gac3

flat 5 / gac 1


I vibed with this above, and I think I'll join you. gac3

flat 4 / gac 2


Agreed on the unpairing. The town lean is mostly for "town is on each other's throats much more than wolves", or is there more to it?

For Blades, I apologize again for the clash. I agree that he's hard to read, but his emotional reaction felt genuine. I'd appreciate if someone else could give their input about this as well. Book, maybe you can surprise me?

Gac.. Well, I felt the same about having people he wanted to kill. Even made myself a note to ask about this later. So...
Gac3 I guess, it's time to explain your leans now instead ofwaiting till day 2.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless I've missed something, Xum, AV and me moved to gac, which makes this flat 4, blades 2, snow 1 and gac 33 . No, wait. Gac3 has 3. :smallwink:

flat 4 / gac 3 (actually 4 with Rogan's double vote)


I will tell you right now that my emotive reaction would happen no matter my alignment. And would probably be genuine no matter my alignment?

I am proud of how I play werewolf and the danger I pose to the opposing team, and this includes my reads when I'm town.

- - - Updated - - -

Gac3

My good sirs, I like this content.

flat 3 / gac 4 (actually 5 with Rogan's double vote)


Maybe it's paranoia but I'm wondering if blade was aware of Rogan's double vote and moved there to both cover it (so gac was actually in the lead) and/or take advantage of it (even if someone else voted for flat, gac would be lynched at 5). I'm sure there's the possibility of wolves not having a coin (in a godfather type role) so I'm a little wary to trust every flip.

Theories:

Every power set in the game is given to 2 people, but doesn't necessarily correlate to alignment.
The Wolves have copies of Town powers, plus an extra power each.



So, I will readily admit I was not prepared for the pace of play. I'm also markedly less jazzed about how well the game is going with two townies dead overnight and.... basically nothing to show for it, it seems.

Finally, I thought I would have something resembling useful information to share. Instead, I have only the absence of useful information, that I feel is probably supposed to be information in itself... that I don't particularly understand.

Do you mind sharing what you thought would be useful info?

And yeah, I've been here for a while and lately the pace has been really hard for me to keep up with - it's a learning curve and definitely comes and goes.


Okay. You weren't blocked per se, but that feedback lines up with how my power should have worked. It unfortunately doesn't let me target the same person twice.

I can see how what I said looks suspicious. In a sense, it was a lot of talking that amounted to nothing, but I was trying to establish how flat_footed's death could yield info on Farmerblink. Maybe. I was also trying to contribute a little bit while staying largely neutral overall in hopes the wolves would think killing me would yield little intel, and thus that they would target me N1 when my power was active.

I'm not sure I understand how your power is related to gac's lack of result?



OK, so I don't like the gac3 read given blade put a late vote on gac (I'm assuming to get a lynch off on gac and still keep a suspected flat around as a target for tomorrow) and my theory about Rogan possibly being a Wolf as well.

I'm not voting Meta, given the exchange yesterday.

Snow feels somewhat townie for now? Pushing people for information and doing what she can.

I don't like Xum's read of gac but I also don't think that warrants a vote.

Book, Farmerbink, Zelphas, Togo, and Val-irli (the player slot of Valmark and Xihirli, pronounced Valerie maybe?) don't have too many posts for me to judge right now.

By default I'm gonna start with a Vote: Jeen Leen and read through the thread again later to see if I find anything new.



Vote Count:
gac3: Xumtiil
CaoimhinTheCape: Snowblaze
JeenLeen: CaoimhinTheCape
No Votes: gac3, Val-irli, Book Wombat, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, Togo

- - - Updated - - -

Addendum but I don't wanna edit my post:

At the beginning, I meant bladescape's vibes, not vibs.

Farmerbink does have a decent amount of posts so maybe shouldn't be in that group at the bottom but I'm also not gonna vote them right now.

[Farmerbink]

The cowled figure remains eerily quiet, preferring to watch and listen rather than break the silence with his own thoughts.


(Re: me) Do you mind sharing what you thought would be useful info?
When prodded, a long, pronounced sigh issues from beneath the hood. "I suspect Snowblaze is genuine in her allegiance. I would like to offer more, but cannot now."

"I want answers from Togo. You have time, but only so much."

The short version is that I also received a "You receive no information from your action," and was very surprised by that. I feel... perhaps a bit better, knowing that the townies have recovered from this sort of deficit before, though my initial read was less optimistic.

Sorry, any more clear of an answer could be... reckless.

Regarding flat_footed, I strongly suspect D1 is somewhere between useless and random. Until we get information, any lynch (one of which is guaranteed) is more or less a shot in the dark. It's handy when you catch a wolf/denarian, but I don't see any capacity in which it's more skill than luck. I voted flat more or less at random, and stuck to it because I saw no compelling information to the alternative. I realize that's not a super thrilling answer, but it's true.

Edit: further, Togo is the definition of flying under the radar for now, so let's make him talk.

Given the baddies already know I'm above board, I'm strongly tempted to start sharing more details. Assuming what Snowblaze said is true, and there is potential value in continuing to protect what secrets I have, I'm inclined to.

That said, it's possible my info could help the town (even as it puts a target on me). If I come to a more clear conclusion there, it may influence my take on Snowblaze, and I might decide to offer more. I suspect the nature of said secret is obvious.

[Xihirli]

I bet the vigilante is the one who killed AV.
Just when AV was coming around on Vigs, too.

[Snowblaze]

I like that Caoimhin post. Which leaves me needing someone else to vote for.

Don't really want to vote Togo until they've had sufficient time to do stuff, I still disagree with the case on gac... I'll skim through a Jeen ISO and see if I want them dead or at least have a lack of reasons to not want them dead.

Xihirli, while it would be amusing for AV to have been the vig shot, the flavour implies... wait, let me double-check, actually.

[Xihirli]

Okay, so:
We're in D2.
The big events from D1 are that Cao got a vote count wrong and people started drawing lines as to whether or not that was wolfy. Meta and AV had a spirited discussion about Flat_Footed, with Meta thinking he was a wolf, but Flat flipped villager.

Bladescape defended his personal honor and called me, specifically, a wolf. Then died horribly with money in his pocket which makes him evil. But the money might be counterfeit?
Am I missing anything?

[Snowblaze]

The first body found was a woman in a dark robe, who had evidently been killed by magic in a similar manner to Harry Dresden.

The second body was a balding and bespectacled man, with an entry wound in his chest the size of some sort of small fruit and a considerably larger exit wound in his back. [/I]



AvatarVecna has died, they were Kumori.

You are Kumori, a mysterious necromancer of unclear allegiances (but for the sake of this game, a loyal member of town).

Chatting with the spirits: You have access to the Deadchat and may post there while still alive, if you wish to.
Channelling the spirits: Once per game, you may pick one character power of an available dead character and gain it as your own for the rest of the game.


No Denarius was found on the body.



Rogan has died, they were Samuel Peabody.

You are Samuel Peabody, a far too influential clerk working for the Senior Council.

I handle the paperwork: Your vote always count as two votes.
Mind-controlling ink: Once per game, you can add an additional 10 votes when deciding who to lynch.


No Denarius was found on the body.

Yeah, the first body is definitely meant to be AV, and "similar to Harry Dresden" implies wolf kill since Harry was BCH and N0 death, which is normally a wolf kill flavour-wise.

- - - Updated - - -


Okay, so:
We're in D2.
The big events from D1 are that Cao got a vote count wrong and people started drawing lines as to whether or not that was wolfy. Meta and AV had a spirited discussion about Flat_Footed, with Meta thinking he was a wolf, but Flat flipped villager.

Bladescape defended his personal honor and called me, specifically, a wolf. Then died horribly with money in his pocket which makes him evil. But the money might be counterfeit?
Am I missing anything?

Meta was arguing against AV's case on flat. And I don't recall bladescape calling you a wolf given you weren't actually playing. Also stuff happened with people wolfreading gac's weird logic. And there was a me/bladescape/flat three-way tie for a while.

- - - Updated - - -

Have unvoted Caoimhin. Though noting I disagree with Rogan being a wolf. I don't know the Dresden Files enough to speculate with any amount of confidence on how likely godfathers are, but I'm sure Rogan in particular is not one.

I have no wolfreads. Well, no, there's Xumtiil but I don't really want to commit to that rn. Skimmed through Jeen and not feeling particularly enthusiastic about killing them. Had them as nullish in my N1 ISO and what they've said today doesn't change that much.

Hmm.

Townleans: Metastachydium, Farmerbink

Even weaker townlean: CaoimhinTheCape

Townlean for reasons I can't articulate that might just be not liking the case against them: gac3

Only just arrived: Xihirli, Togo

Book Wombat: Book Wombat
Exists but hasn't done much: Zelphas

Null: JeenLeen

Maybe wolflean but I don't want to actually commit to killing them because I'll feel terrible if I'm wrong: Xumtiil

Idiot who doesn't realise the reason there's only ten players on her reads list is that the eleventh is herself: Snowblaze

Can I get people's thoughts on Xumtiil? Are my points against them valid? Why/why not?

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Can I get people's thoughts on Xumtiil? Are my points against them valid? Why/why not?

I kinda get your case against them but most of the posts you label as NAI which doesn't necessarily convince me to vote them. I don't have the issue with calling out and voting gac as a Day 1 wagon (even if I'm leaning town on gac now) but am not interested in gac as a Day 2 wagon. I don't think I'll end up joining you there but my town lean isn't as strong as it was Day 1.

- - - Updated - - -

Gonna go through the Day 1 voting and use colors. With 4 flips I'm hoping to see something or at least have it as a reference for later.


Rogan: flat_footed
No Votes: Valmark, AvatarVecna, bladescape, Xumtiil, gac3, Book Wombat, Snowblaze, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo, Rogan

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna
No Votes: Valmark, bladescape, Xumtiil, gac3, Book Wombat, Snowblaze, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo, Rogan

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna
Book: Rogan
No Votes: Valmark, bladescape, Xumtiil, gac3, Book, Snowblaze, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna
Book: Rogan, gac3
No Votes: Valmark, bladescape, Xumtiil, Book, Snowblaze, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Snowblaze, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape
bladescape: Snowblaze
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, JeenLeen, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, JeenLeen
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape
bladescape: Snowblaze
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Zelphas, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, JeenLeen
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, CaoimhinTheCape, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Metastachydium, Farmerbink, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Farmerbink, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Togo

Rogan: flat_footed
flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3, flat_footed
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Book, Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3, flat_footed
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Book
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
No Votes: Valmark, Xumtiil, Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Xumtiil, Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, Xumtiil
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: Rogan, gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Book: gac3
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink
Snowblaze: bladescape, Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen, gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape
Snowblaze: Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen, gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
Snowblaze: Metastachydium, Xumtiil
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas, Rogan
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, bladescape, JeenLeen
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, Rogan
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, JeenLeen
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Snowblaze, Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, Rogan, bladescape
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, JeenLeen, Snowblaze
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, Rogan, bladescape
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, JeenLeen, Snowblaze, Rogan
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, bladescape
No Votes: Togo

flat_footed: CaoimhinTheCape, Farmerbink, JeenLeen, Snowblaze, Rogan
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
bladescape: Zelphas
CaoimhinTheCape: gac3
Metastachydium: Book
Xumtiil: flat_footed
Valmark: Valmark
gac3: Xumtiil, AvatarVecna, bladescape
No Votes: Togo



Yeah, so the Wolf!Rogan theory looks a lot less likely, now that I've realized he was the 3rd/4th votes on blade.

Maybe more analysis on this later (if there is any) but I find it interesting that gac moves his vote to me to make it flat-3 snow-3 blade 3* Cape-2. Then blade moves his vote to flat (for a split of flat-4 snow-2 blade-3* Cape-2) and then Jeen also moves to flat (split of flat-5 snow-2 blade-3* Cape-1). I'm gonna unpair gac and Jeen for now, if they were wolves with blade I assume they would have coordinated differently.

Also, gonna give the most minor of town points to Zelphas for sticking on blade all day. If I have to decide between any of the "ehh, not enough posts to decide" group then I'll give Zelphas the benefit there.

[JeenLeen]

The short version is that I also received a "You receive no information from your action," and was very surprised by that. I feel... perhaps a bit better, knowing that the townies have recovered from this sort of deficit before, though my initial read was less optimistic.

Sorry, any more clear of an answer could be... reckless.

That makes sense and sounds reasonable. It's a tough balance between sharing info that might help, and giving away too much info that might help wolves or point a target on yourself.
Keep in mind most powers can't target the same person twice, so if you want to use your power on the same person tonight, it should probably work.



Can I get people's thoughts on Xumtiil? Are my points against them valid? Why/why not?

I find Xumtiil hard to read, but he feels like he felt when Town in the recent AV game.



Do you mind sharing what you thought would be useful info?

And yeah, I've been here for a while and lately the pace has been really hard for me to keep up with - it's a learning curve and definitely comes and goes.



I'm not sure I understand how your power is related to gac's lack of result?

This sorta feels like a wolf digging for more info. I'm not going to answer, because I don't want to give away the specifics of my power, but I asked Batcathat and he said the response gac3 gave is what should happen if he targeted me.
I do find it reasonable that gac3 and Cao suspect me, but I'm gonna lean CaoimhinTheCape.

I've read through this Day's chat, but not everything from D1 or N1. Hope to do that after catch up on work a bit. The AV/Meta argument looks interesting, but it's a lot to read.

- - - Updated - - -

Townleans on gac3, Farmerblink. Sorta townish feel on Snowblaze, Metastachyium, and Xumtiil, but not based on much.

I did have an idea of being against Farmerblink that I wrote it about 5 hours ago--didn't post then since I wanted to see what if anything he would post--but based on what Farmerblink posted since then, I don't think it's true. I'm gonna put below anyhow.


*squints suspiciously*

Not at you gac. At... everything.

::squints suspiciously at Farmerbink::

When I was first responding to Farmerbink's note about not being sure about playing, I had a thought along the lines of "You should keep playing because almost dropping out gives you a ton of towncred. No way a wolf (especially given your reasons) would drop this game at this state." It quickly followed with how that's unfair to wolves, then that quickly followed with "UNLESS... you're a wolf intending to keep playing, and this IS a gambit to gain towncred."
So, since there's no mechanical reason or (as far as I can tell) strong analysis reason* to be suspicious of anyone: <here I was voting him>

Note: one mistake I made when town is thinking of a cool gambit a wolf might do and voting assuming they did it, on the chance something works and then I look really clever for realizing it.
*haven't reread fully. I know I keep repeating this, but it's been a really odd weekend.

[Snowblaze]

@Batcathat if you try to target someone and fail can you then try to target them with the same power the next night phase?

(I initially read Jeen as saying "most powers can't target the same person twice, so trying to target the same person twice should work" but then realised it actually makes sense if the answer to the above is "yes".)

[JeenLeen]

@Batcathat if you try to target someone and fail can you then try to target them with the same power the next night phase?

(I initially read Jeen as saying "most powers can't target the same person twice, so trying to target the same person twice should work" but then realised it actually makes sense if the answer to the above is "yes".)

To my embarrassment (and probably to hurt to my towncred), I think this was answered in Recruitment and I actually asked it. And his answer was "no, you can't target them again".
But good to get confirmation again.

Of course I can't prove it, but this was a mistake on my part, not trying to get a townie to waste their action.

BUT if Farmerblink's power is a rare one that can target the same person multiple nights, whoever they targeted last night probably can't evade it again.

[Metastachydium]

Hm. The lean, delicate figure begins circling the bodies with the measured caution of a weathered predator. So many pretty words. Too many pretty thoughts. The figure looks straight into Kumori's now exposed face. It is so clear now and so calm. Levis sit ei terra. How much of that can we still afford, before the last of us, moribundus, gemet fuimus? High winds sweep the sands away, not trickling water or the sound of a small voice. Kumori understood that. Ramirez didn't. What killed him, was silence. What killed her was fear. There's much to be told about her death still – but let us not be hasty. The cold, heavy gaze flicks upwards and settles on a robed wizard.


Hah, my greatest flaw? You misunderstand. You are the flawed.
All of you.


And Superbia. Pride. Harum regionum incolae habebant id quondam vitium esse, and a major one at that, as you surely know yourself. Septem Mala! The Seven Ills as De Coster would say. But, you see, most things have more than one face, and often enough certainly more than quam Hostis fert ac quo Hostis fertur. The Seven Ills – and the Circle. Winter and Spring. The Giant and the Cup. And against them, himself of two faces, ille Princeps Veris et Pallidus Arbiter. The lean figure sits down again nodding to themselves. But you never struck me as one who wouldn't find such musings on ethics, Right and Wrong, Good and Ill of much interest. You might find them insipid, as they often are. Don't you, now? the figure looks at the Wombat staring intently from under the hood. Let us talk of other things, perhaps, things that certainly intigue me more. Who is all of us?


We had quite the night, Wombat. Distractions abound where the mowing devils reap. But my question still stands, and I am as curious as I were, if not moreso. Where would you draw that line? Who is all of us?



That would make sense, but using a power like that on Day One? I can't see any obvious reason to target bladescape (did I miss something?), so I have some doubt it's a one-shot unless we have a Serial Killer. I really dunno.

Hm. How would you rate the likelihood of that? And why would a one shot kill appeal to the Killer?



Alternatively, I could see a 1-shot day-vig.

I'm inclined to concur; but we shall see.


Maybe it's paranoia but I'm wondering if blade was aware of Rogan's double vote and moved there to both cover it (so gac was actually in the lead) and/or take advantage of it (even if someone else voted for flat, gac would be lynched at 5). I'm sure there's the possibility of wolves not having a coin (in a godfather type role) so I'm a little wary to trust every flip.

I'm with Snowblaze at this one, even as the very thought of consorting with her makes my stomach turn. Rogan struck me as fairly constructive in all ways. Your raw data points in the same direction. As for Blade, I struggle to see how he could have been aware of the Peabody Powerset before Rogan flipped, assuming we dismiss the godfather theory. The counterfeit coins are confirmed to be a hint at his Denarian abilities and are hard to reconcile with the idea that he had some manner of (limited?) seer ability.


Theories:

Every power set in the game is given to 2 people, but doesn't necessarily correlate to alignment.
The Wolves have copies of Town powers, plus an extra power each.


Powers don't correlate to alignment and the dogs get something something extra besides standard powers. That much is clear.

I'm not sure what to say with regard to idea of "all powersets are doubled", but personally, I hope otherwise.


Can I get people's thoughts on Xumtiil? Are my points against them valid? Why/why not?

His Day 1 activity doesn't amount to much beyond the musings about gac. How much credit he deserves, therefore is in no small part a function of who gac is and what gac wants. On that, I am of two minds, but I shall look into it if time allows for that.

[Batcathat]

@Batcathat if you try to target someone and fail can you then try to target them with the same power the next night phase?

(I initially read Jeen as saying "most powers can't target the same person twice, so trying to target the same person twice should work" but then realised it actually makes sense if the answer to the above is "yes".)


To my embarrassment (and probably to hurt to my towncred), I think this was answered in Recruitment and I actually asked it. And his answer was "no, you can't target them again".
But good to get confirmation again.

This was indeed answered in the recruitment thread but to reiterate, unless otherwise noted you can't target the same person with the same power two nights in a row.

[Metastachydium]

This was indeed answered in the recruitment thread but to reiterate, unless otherwise noted you can't target the same person with the same power two nights in a row.

Ah, majestic! I misremembered that one. Thought one cannot use the same power two times in a row.

[gac3]

His Day 1 activity doesn't amount to much beyond the musings about gac. How much credit he deserves, therefore is in no small part a function of who gac is and what gac wants. On that, I am of two minds, but I shall look into it if time allows for that.

I believe I am a warden and want justice?

[JeenLeen]

I'm not sure what to say with regard to idea of "all powersets are doubled", but personally, I hope otherwise.



My guess is that the necromancer was on both teams for balance purposes, but that the other powers aren't copied. Unless we get evidence otherwise.

One of my powers is almost useless to Town as it just spreads misinformation. Like, I can mess up watcher/tracker results by adding misinfo to it. I don't plan to use that power. It's a good wolf power, though.
My other power is good for either faction.
Based on that, I reckon the powers were all assigned randomly (or mostly randomly, maybe necro forced on both teams), but RNG then decided which were wolves.

At first, I wasn't going to share this about my power, but:
*if the wolves are copies of our powers (and they got a copy of mine), they know enough to guess mine from what I've already said
*if they aren't, then me saying this doesn't help them

[Togo]

I must admit I've been keeping quiet largely because only two things can happen. Either I accuse someone who is a Denarian, and they target me. Or I don't and take attention away from someone who is.

Well, that, and I'm in another timezone.

But that reasoning makes for a terrible game, so let's go with the rampant speculation.

I agree with some of the points raised, but there's one that sticks out to me. Metastachydium. There's been lot of analysis about whether accusations against flat were accurate or not, which is fine, but to my mind is irrelevent. Avatar_Vecna was the only one who put in a serious amount of speculation as to whether Meta was a Denarian or not, and then ends up dead. Yes their discussion was chivalrous and contained and fruitful and so on, which would all be relevent if we were discussing their virtues as posters, but we're not. The only person who cast shade on Meta got ripped apart. It's about the only solid I reason I can see to be suspicious of anyone.

So yeah, Metastachydium

On another note, why are people referring to 'townies' and 'wolves' in game set in Harry Dreseden's Chicago? This game is variously known as Mafia, Werewolf, Zombie, Cultist and so on. And the Dresdenverse contains both wolves and werewolves as characters (and organised crime and cultists and zombies), some of whom we might be playing as characters. Am I the only to find that confusing?


A cowled figure rises. If you must have words from me than you shall have them. And since an accusation is inevitable, then I shall make one. It is not through my powers, but through my intellect and will, that I act.

But we are fools to squabble amongst ourselves. Whatever other differences we have between us, it is the Denarians that should consume our full attention.

Beneath the heavy cowl a faint beat can be heard. Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom...

[JeenLeen]

On another note, why are people referring to 'townies' and 'wolves' in game set in Harry Dreseden's Chicago? This game is variously known as Mafia, Werewolf, Zombie, Cultist and so on. And the Dresdenverse contains both wolves and werewolves as characters (and organised crime and cultists and zombies), some of whom we might be playing as characters. Am I the only to find that confusing?

Town is the general term for "good guys" and wolves/scum for "bad guys".
It can get confusing sometimes (like one game had "villagers" (Town), "witches" (wolves), and a werewolf (serial killer neutral). So the wolf wasn't a wolf and the wolves weren't a wolf. ^_^)

- - - Updated - - -

And "serial killer" is a neutral whose job is to kill everybody else. Rarely with the exception of letting some neutral(s) survive.
Survivor a neutral who wins just by staying alive until game ends.

[gac3]

For what it's worth, flat and I have near identical roles.

[Metastachydium]

I agree with some of the points raised, but there's one that sticks out to me. Metastachydium. There's been lot of analysis about whether accusations against flat were accurate or not, which is fine, but to my mind is irrelevent. Avatar_Vecna was the only one who put in a serious amount of speculation as to whether Meta was a Denarian or not, and then ends up dead. Yes their discussion was chivalrous and contained and fruitful and so on, which would all be relevent if we were discussing their virtues as posters, but we're not. The only person who cast shade on Meta got ripped apart. It's about the only solid I reason I can see to be suspicious of anyone.

So yeah, Metastachydium

Lovely! I appreciate the vote of confidence. People will sometimes forget I'm even here when I'm not yelling at someone. Still, you know, why would I do that? Half AV's reason to suspect me was the idea that I'm protecting my scumbuddy. But flat wasn't a Denarian. The otherf half was something anout my arguments being too stupid for me to be pro-Council, but I addressed these points and people weren't switching over to me in droves. Like you said, AV's death makes me more suspicious and not less. How's that good for me (barring Vizzini nonsense)?

[Xumtiil]

Current leanings:

Meta, Snow town. Meta for the Meta/AV talk, Snow for feeling like solvy-Snow.

Null: Xihimark, Togo, for not having participated a lot yet. Probably both town but I'm not going to exclude the possibility that wolves were limping along with one man down. The Wombat, for being Book Wombat.

Denarisus: Zelphas, Caoimhin, JeenLeen, FarmerBink and Gac. Most of this is simply gut, but there is one thing I want to add:



NGL, I had to stop and see if I was a warden and I think the answer is no? Really bad at remembering the details of this character. Really tempted to just ramble what details I know about my character but I'm sure to anyone with Google it would give it away.


I believe I am a warden and want justice?

Which one is it, Gac? The google is pretty straightforward on whether or not you're a warden, so this confusion is suspicious.

[Metastachydium]

My guess is that the necromancer was on both teams for balance purposes, but that the other powers aren't copied. Unless we get evidence otherwise.

One of my powers is almost useless to Town as it just spreads misinformation. Like, I can mess up watcher/tracker results by adding misinfo to it. I don't plan to use that power. It's a good wolf power, though.

Hm. Well, I appreciate your honesty, but given the nature of this power of yours and that


For what it's worth, flat and I have near identical roles.

I'm beginning to worry that Bat doesn't really care about what I hope to be true.

- - - Updated - - -


Which one is it, Gac? The google is pretty straightforward on whether or not you're a warden, so this confusion is suspicious.

Nice catch, I must say.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

My guess is that the necromancer was on both teams for balance purposes, but that the other powers aren't copied. Unless we get evidence otherwise.

For what it's worth, flat and I have near identical roles.

There's some proof now.


I made the vote count below but we have about 24 hours to go and no wagons with more than one vote. I'm comfortable enough with my vote on Jeen but I'm open to switching... I just don't particularly like any of the other options out there right now.



Vote Count
gac3: Xumtiil
JeenLeen: CaoimhinTheCape
Togo: Farmerbink
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Togo

No Vote: Valmark/Xihirli, gac3, Book Wombat, Snowblaze, Metastachydium, Zelphas

[Snowblaze]

I don't necessarily think AV kill is suspicious for Meta, wolves would presumably have known from bladescape that they were the other necromancer which is a decent reason to want them dead. Togo's reasoning makes sense though.

gac's claim checks out with them saying switching the lynch to them wouldn't have mattered, and is probably true regardless of alignment.

There's an odd number of players so all roles can't come in pairs. I'd guess that there's hence either one or three neutrals.

Xumtiil, can you talk about why Farmerbink is wolfy?

I'm still mulling over what Jeen's partial claim means for their alignment, currently thinking it's decently towny.

I will find a wolfread. Eventually. Maybe.

[Farmerbink]

Once more, the prodigiously tall wizard clears his through. His gloved hand points directly at Metastachydium. In a deep baritone, he rumbles. "You. There is much talk, but empty of reason. Your actions pair you and Xumtiil with Mortimer (Bladescape)- the fool that he was. Were you blinded by ambition? Swayed by the honeyed words of the Fallen? Or have you taken a coin already for yourselves? Explain yourselves lest you join him in his fate."



On another note, why are people referring to 'townies' and 'wolves' in game set in Harry Dreseden's Chicago? This game is variously known as Mafia, Werewolf, Zombie, Cultist and so on. And the Dresdenverse contains both wolves and werewolves as characters (and organised crime and cultists and zombies), some of whom we might be playing as characters. Am I the only to find that confusing?
I wanted to comment here, I don't get a Dresden werewolf vibe from anyone (though there's limited RP and apparently occasionally limited setting knowledge, so not super relevant).

BUT- the Dresden werewolves that have names are nearly universally Good guys. They are among the least ambiguous of Good Guys, essentially being college kids with a one-trick-pony skill that they have used to radically clean up their little neck of the metaphorical Chicago woods.

Back on topic, I don't have especially conclusive evidence, but a strongly developing hunch for a Meta/Xum Denarian pairing. Xum has talked a lot, cast lots of shade, and to my perception enjoyed largely staying out of the limelight. Add to that there was a long time, in-game, that the two of them voted alongside Bladescape and you have the makings of... well, potentially lots of hearsay. Still, it smells fishy to me.

Also, I've made it clear I have potentially significant information. I kinda wish I was a denarian, but Xum eying me feels more like trying to nip the proverbial bud than a genuine wolf lean (I think that's how the cool kids say it? XD).

Still, obviously my vote for Togo was (explicitly) a garbage toss, and I'm going to join him in voting for Metastachydium

[Book Wombat]

We had quite the night, Wombat. Distractions abound where the mowing devils reap. But my question still stands, and I am as curious as I were, if not moreso. Where would you draw that line? Who is all of us?

Those who have fallen to the corruption of the darkness are not worthy members of our council.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Vote: Book Wombat

Please comment on the game or give some sort of read.



Vote Count
gac3: Xumtiil
Book Wombat: CaoimhinTheCape
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Togo, Farmerbink

No Vote: Valmark/Xihirli, gac3, Book Wombat, Snowblaze, Metastachydium, Zelphas

[JeenLeen]

Missed this one.


I was interpreting the "him" in "this seems off for him" as being Caoimhin rather than you, gac. Jeen, can you confirm which one of us is correct?

I meant it seemed off for Cao. That many mistakes, especially on a voteccount.
Though, thinking back, doesn't seem super wolfy in retrospect. Enough for a D1 vote, but nothing I'd put much weight on now as it could easily be innocent mistakes.

Something still feels a touch off for Cao, but could be just little info to go on and most folk I have an opinon on seem towny.
Been having trouble making time to reread (or just read) all of D1, but trying to stay up on D2 movements.

[gac3]

There's some proof now.


I made the vote count below but we have about 24 hours to go and no wagons with more than one vote. I'm comfortable enough with my vote on Jeen but I'm open to switching... I just don't particularly like any of the other options out there right now.



Vote Count
gac3: Xumtiil
JeenLeen: CaoimhinTheCape
Togo: Farmerbink
CaoimhinTheCape: JeenLeen
Metastachydium: Togo

No Vote: Valmark/Xihirli, gac3, Book Wombat, Snowblaze, Metastachydium, Zelphas

For the record by almost identical, I mean everything except the name.

Also I know you already moved but I'm happy turning Jeenleen into a wagon. Their claim/responses hasn't made me any more likely to believe them so far.

[Xumtiil]

Xumtiil, can you talk about why Farmerbink is wolfy?


I will never find cryptic bastardry not wolfy.

- - - Updated - - -


For the record by almost identical, I mean everything except the name.

Also I know you already moved but I'm happy turning Jeenleen into a wagon. Their claim/responses hasn't made me any more likely to believe them so far.

Don't forget to bold votes

[Farmerbink]

I will never find cryptic bastardry not wolfy.

Aw, shucks. Love you too, Pookie.

((Though tbh, I would probably feel the same, I still like you for a Denarian))

[Metastachydium]

Those who have fallen to the corruption of the darkness are not worthy members of our council.


The robed one earns a smirk and a scoff for his trouble. Such as Peabody? He died for this Council. Who else? The lean figure turns to face the tall wizard. Me, perhaps?


Once more, the prodigiously tall wizard clears his through. His gloved hand points directly at Metastachydium. In a deep baritone, he rumbles. "You. There is much talk, but empty of reason. Your actions pair you and Xumtiil with Mortimer (Bladescape)- the fool that he was. Were you blinded by ambition? Swayed by the honeyed words of the Fallen? Or have you taken a coin already for yourselves? Explain yourselves lest you join him in his fate."

You are as bold as the other is proud. You may hide them under those pretentious gloves of yours, but I can see the blood of Ramirez on your hands, young one. I can smell it. I saw you stand by Lindqvist against him, but I struggle to recall your reason to call for the Warden's head so doggedly.

(I'm a wagon! A LEADING wagon!)

- - - Updated - - -


For the record by almost identical, I mean everything except the name.

I see.


Also I know you already moved but I'm happy turning Jeenleen into a wagon. Their claim/responses hasn't made me any more likely to believe them so far.

Do you plan to answer Xumtiil's question? I for one would appreciate a clarification on the exact nature of your function. Provided you share a powerset with flat, your being a warden would certainly make sense, much unlike your earlier comment contradicting that claim.

[gac3]

The robed one earns a smirk and a scoff for his trouble. Such as Peabody? He died for this Council. Who else? The lean figure turns to face the tall wizard. Me, perhaps?



You are as bold as the other is proud. You may hide them under those pretentious gloves of yours, but I can see the blood of Ramirez on your hands, young one. I can smell it. I saw you stand by Lindqvist against him, but I struggle to recall your reason to call for the Warden's head so doggedly.

(I'm a wagon! A LEADING wagon!)

- - - Updated - - -



I see.



Do you plan to answer Xumtiil's question? I for one would appreciate a clarification on the exact nature of your function. Provided you share a powerset with flat, your being a warden would certainly make sense, much unlike your earlier comment contradicting that claim.

Unsure what questions or earlier contradictory comments you mean.

[Xumtiil]

You are Carlos Ramirez, a Warden of the White Council

Another reason why I'm confused about Gac's inability to tell if he's a Warden, btw, is that you get told you're a warden in your role PM.

Like, I'm not convinced it's not all just Gac Weirdness (tm), but I find that there's a lot of it.

[gac3]

Another reason why I'm confused about Gac's inability to tell if he's a Warden, btw, is that you get told you're a warden in your role PM.

Like, I'm not convinced it's not all just Gac Weirdness (tm), but I find that there's a lot of it.

Oh I'm a warden. I think I joked about it earlier. That was just a soft claim

[Xumtiil]

Which one is it, Gac? The google is pretty straightforward on whether or not you're a warden, so this confusion is suspicious.

Post doesn't quote quotes but this one, Gac

[gac3]

I believe I am a warden and want justice?

You asked what I was and what I want. I'm a warden and I believe I want justice.

- - - Updated - - -

The justice part was the unsure part. I might just want to beat up Harry Dresden from what I remember.

[JeenLeen]

Y'know, if some of our roles are duplicated amongst the wolves, then maybe we should test that by eliminating someone with a role that a townie has.
gac3

I am Aleron LeFortier, a skilled illusionist and member of the Senior Council.
Like I said, if the wolves have my power, then they can guess the other one. So giving this fluff shouldn't reveal anything extra.

- - - Updated - - -

To note: I still get a wolfy feel from Cao and a townish feel from gac3, but there's not much justifying either of those feels.
I'm not on my best game this game (or at least this Day of it), so no hard feelings if folk shift to a wagon on me.

[Book Wombat]

Mostly gut feeling, but am suspicious of both Metastachydium and CaoimhinTheCape. Dunno.

[Batcathat]

Suddenly...

With the bodies piling up, emotions are running wild and the accusations fly freely. At the center of it all is the Merlin himself, leader of the White Council and a very respected, if not always liked, person. But just as he's in the middle of making himself a sandwich, he falls over. Dead, with not a mark on him.

CaoimhinTheCape has died, they were Arthur Langtry.

You are Arthur Langtry, better known as the Merlin, the harsh but occasionally fair leader of the White Council.

Politician: Your vote always count as two votes.
I'm in charge here: Once per game, you can add an additional 10 votes when deciding who to lynch.

No Denarius was found on the body.

[Xumtiil]

Avatar_Vecna was the only one who put in a serious amount of speculation as to whether Meta was a Denarian or not, and then ends up dead. Yes their discussion was chivalrous and contained and fruitful and so on, which would all be relevent if we were discussing their virtues as posters, but we're not. The only person who cast shade on Meta got ripped apart. It's about the only solid I reason I can see to be suspicious of anyone.


This is actually a very fair point I think, and something to consider. Meta might not be as town as I think, and AV did unpair flat/meta w/w at some point. Flat flipping town does not mean Meta is off the hook, will need to keep an eye out.

- - - Updated - - -

And that answers the question "Are there town with the same powers". They're identical to Rogan's.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm finally able to post again, and four are dead, only one a wolf. Good Lord, that was bad timing for IRL to suddenly get ludicrous.

I saw in my skim that someone had a question for me; I'll answer it tomorrow, I want to get a post up showing that I am still alive.

No vote yet today; I need to actually read what's happening.

You ok there Zelphas? Poke.

[Farmerbink]

And that answers the question "Are there town with the same powers". They're identical to Rogan's.


But Rogan was also town, no? That's two people without coins (which it has been suggested is not necessarily the same thing as 'town') with both powers identical.

Is that relevant? Honestly, I kinda don't think so. It could be, but I'm not exactly sure how. That said, there's been a lot of speculation that the Denarians get an extra power? We did not see a third power on Bladescape/Mortimer Lindquist, though he did have coins. He also had the fake coins. Was his a fake? And would we know if they used their secondary power? Maybe it wasn't at all random who got lynched?

*headache*

I should probably stop making noise without useful contributions...

[Xumtiil]

But Rogan was also town, no? That's two people without coins (which it has been suggested is not necessarily the same thing as 'town') with both powers identical.

Is that relevant? Honestly, I kinda don't think so. It could be, but I'm not exactly sure how. That said, there's been a lot of speculation that the Denarians get an extra power? We did not see a third power on Bladescape/Mortimer Lindquist, though he did have coins. He also had the fake coins. Was his a fake? And would we know if they used their secondary power? Maybe it wasn't at all random who got lynched?

*headache*

I should probably stop making noise without useful contributions...

It is relevant in the sense that someone claiming the same powers does not [I]necessarily/I] have to be a wolf. Also, all your speculations (and your roleplay posts!) are very welcome. They provide insight in how you think, and knowing how you think helps other people understand you and also provides us with perspectives we might not have considered, helping us solve.

------------------------------

Book Wombat
Farmerbink
gac3
JeenLeen
Metastachydium
Snowblaze
Togo
Xihirli
Xumtiil
Zelphas

Likely 3 wolves left in the above list.

Likely candidates in no particular order:
Farmerbink (cryptic, but that's it)
Gac (doing gac-y stuff)
JeenLeen (gut)
Meta (pushing AV's buttons to look towny)
Zelphas (flying under the radar)
(Togo?)

Book I'm leaving alone for now because of reasons, which I'll share the next game day.

Snow has been helping solve quite well, and I don't feel like she's pushed any town kills.

Togo and Xihirli, I simply don't think are wolves because they took too long to come to the game - Although still a bit suspect as Togo claims to have wanted to fly under the radar, and Xihirli is taking over from Valmark who, nominally at least, was present at the start. I'll need to see more activity from them.

[Zelphas]

You ok there Zelphas? Poke.

Mentally exhausting weekend. Finally have some time to myself. Expect preliminary reads and my vote in the next two hours, or profuse apologies; absolute guarantee that all of that wil lbe up before the end of day. People are dying really fast in this game, and still only one wolf. I don't like it.

- - - Updated - - -

Ha! Made it in in under an hour!

Flat_footed: Town. Dead.

Valmark—no, Xihirli: too new to this game to read anything yet. Leaning town due to that, or possible neutral without a kill power.

AvatarVecna: Town. Dead.

Bladescape: Denarian. Dead.

Xumtiil: First vote was OMGUS, but immediately switched out of that. Their current focus on Gac makes me think that they might have a neutral executioner-like role (and there’s a Dresden Files character that could fit that role if it exists), but I could also see town. Either way, null, not leaning scum at the moment.

Gac3: Lots of posts, but not much solid info in each. Their last role statement suggests that they’re the character I thought that Xumtiil might be, which muddies things. Mild scumlean; if they die and flip town, Xumtiil looks moderately scummier.

Book Wombat: Almost nothing… but more than me. Their suspicion of CaomhintheCape immediately before the latter’s death is odd, but I’m not sure if that’s scummy or just terrible timing. Null.

Snowblaze: first post was OMGUS, just noting that. Other than that, they’ve been active in driving discussion and sussing out reads. Slight townlean; I think I townlean everyone who gives me information.

JeenLeen: Pointed out possible “distancing” on two characters who both flipped town, which isn’t the best look. I have the very vaguest of scumleans based on the feeling that they are saying a fair amount of words without much information.

Metastachydium: The argument with AvatarVecna Day 1 suggests either opposite teams (Meta scum) or unknowing teams (Meta town), which lands at null for me from that. Nothing they’ve said makes me lean town, but the accusations against them are from people who I’m iffy on, which has an indirect effect. Uncomfortable null lean.

Farmerbink: I enjoy the roleplay from them, and they seem like a new player working to help out town and get adjusted to the Playground meta. Townlean for the moment; they’re new, so I might just be unable to read them.

Zelphas: I’m town.

CaoimhintheCape: Town. Dead. (too many of that note here already…)

Togo: Latecomer to things. In re-reading their posts, I find their reasoning more sound than I remember for their Metastachydium vote, which shades Meta a little bit scummier in my eyes. Slight townlean on Togo, pending more posts to read.

Rogan. Town. Dead. (and another one.)

So, with my thoughts consolidated, I think my strongest scumlean on the moment is on gac3, so that’s where my vote is going.

[JeenLeen]

I lost my reason (beyond a slight odd feel Xumtiil is cultivating) to vote gac3, and overall I get townish vibes for gac3, so unvoted him now that we know two townies can have identical powers.

Hmm... Xihirli and her previous incarnation as Valmark might have been under the radar due to feeling ill/not yet being a player, so not necessarily townish. I'd like to hear more from Xi.

- - - Updated - - -

Day-vig, if you want to claim, I'd like to hear why you killed those.

I'm guessing the day-vig is a neutral, either serial killer or hunting a particular target. I kinda figured the day-vig might kill me today, but maybe my claim protected me from their wraith.
I doubt the wolves would have an extra kill per cycle. I think the wolves would leave the day-vig alone since overall it helps them.

Though highly guessing won't claim due to fears of a foe seeking them, or the town deciding they've done enough harm. I'd let the day-vig live in hopes they start hitting wolves.

[Snowblaze]

gac3 2: Xumtiil, Zelphas
Metastachydium 3: Togo, Farmerbink, Book Wombat
JeenLeen 1: gac3
Xihirli 1: JeenLeen
Not voting: Snowblaze, Xihirli

I thought seeing what the wagons were like would help me decide who to vote for; unfortunately I don't want to kill anyone who is being voted. Jeen is currently least worst option from that list; their claim is mildly towny but I can't really get to a townread independently of that.

RIP Caoimhin; was good to be briefly townbuddies.

Agreed that there's a good chance dayvig is a neutral, possibly SK. I'm actually toying with whether a massclaim would out them and whether in that case it's worthwhile.

Going to look at Zelphas's reads list in more detail and see if that can get me a better read on him.

- - - Updated - - -

Zelphas's reads list is... enough that I don't want to kill him today, I think. There isn't anything unfakeable there but there's a decent amount of original thought and nothing that gives me major pings.

So my list of People I Don't Want To Kill Today consists of my surviving townleans Meta and gac, who are also the lead wagons, Jeen for their claim, Zelphas, our new arrivals Xihirli and Togo, and Farmerbink.

Which is seven, eight counting myself, with ten living players.

Book Wombat and Xumtiil. That's it.

I'm missing something here, aren't I? Time to play "who am I misclearing?"