+1 Weapon vs Weapon of Warning

[TheCleverGuy]

Just a little informal poll: Say you're a PC at 3rd level--would you rather find A) a +1 weapon, B) a Weapon of Warning, or C) something else entirely?

For some context, I'm running Rime of the Frostmaiden, and my level 3 party is about to embark on the White Moose quest. Following some advice I picked from someone on YouTube, I want to make the bow that they can recover from the Elven Tomb a magic item, but I'm having trouble deciding what sort of magic item it should be. It will be the party's first magic item (apart from the Psi chrystal the picked up in the Beautiful Mine, which the Wizard refuses to attune to until he can cast Identify). For what it's worth, the party consists of a Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, Paladin, and Wizard.

Thanks!

[meandean]

To me, a Weapon of Warning is big, either for the Bard/Wizard so they can cast AOEs/battlefield control before everyone moves around, or for the Paladin so they're not always going last.

If it's e.g. a dagger that they don't actually use in combat but just get the initiative boost from, is that exciting for the player? I don't know. But it certainly is useful!

[Boci]

Weapon of warning definitely, no questions asks. The only time I would take a +1 weapon was if a weapon of warning felt too good for how competent I imagined my character being. In a vaccum without a specific character, definitely weapons of warning.

[Dualight]

Weapon of warning, no contest. The 30 foot radius aura of immunity to surprise is a life saver, which becomes obvious as soon as it foils the first ambush.
The advantage on initiative is also very nice, as is the fact that as a magic weapon, it bypasses resistance/immunity to non-magical BPS.
I played a Dex-paladin from 3rd to 8th with that (Dm gave 1 uncommon item of choice at start), and it was easily the most impactful item the party had.

Since you are a DM contemplating giving it out, consider this: Does the story expect the party to struggle when ambushed? If not, the weapon will be a lot of fun. If you want the PCs to have to deal with the surprised condition at any point, though, do not give it to them.

I suppose that there are also builds that would prefer some other item (say, a warlock wanting a rod of the pactkeeper), but a weapon of warning is great for anyone.

[Angelalex242]

Just make sure to fit the weapon of warning to the character.

If the Paladin is a Polearm/sentinel sort of guy, do the man a solid and make it a warning weapon that fits his build.

[solidork]

The immunity to surprise is a little problematic. It's very good, but completely taking ambushes off the table for the whole party cuts off the possibility of some fun encounters. Sometimes being put in a tough spot is exciting as a player, and I'm at the point where I don't want to make things too easy on myself.

Modifying it so that only the attuned person can't be surprised/is awakened would be a good compromise.

[diplomancer]

Weapon of Warning is probably the most overpowered, and un-fun,que item in the game. If you can take it, take it. That said, yes, a good way to balance it is to limit the surprise immunity to the wielder, and not to the whole party.

[MrStabby]

Do not ever give a weapon of warning. Please.

Every chaacter that took proficiency in perception now has that devalued, likewise everyone who opted for high wisdom. If the party gets ambushed, then their "cool thing" has just been crushed. Or think of the monk 'always ready' never needing to grab a weapon or don armor; if the party gets to prepare for an encounter, then their advantages go. Or the peson who took the ritual caster feat (or has rituals as a class feaure) that was the person that could alarm the camp or use divination effects to reveal threats.

As a DM, there are a lot of cool encounters that you can run based on surprise - turning the underdog into a real threat as the party gets disturbed in their sleep and generally having them play out a bit differently to how they would if the party had the initiative and decided how to run things. Giving up such a powerful tool for creating fun and different encounters should not be done lightly. Think of all those dramatic reveals and the excitement that you are throwing away.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Do not ever give a weapon of warning. Please.

Every chaacter that took proficiency in perception now has that devalued, likewise everyone who opted for high wisdom. If the party gets ambushed, then their "cool thing" has just been crushed. Or think of the monk 'always ready' never needing to grab a weapon or don armor; if the party gets to prepare for an encounter, then their advantages go. Or the peson who took the ritual caster feat (or has rituals as a class feaure) that was the person that could alarm the camp or use divination effects to reveal threats.

As a DM, there are a lot of cool encounters that you can run based on surprise - turning the underdog into a real threat as the party gets disturbed in their sleep and generally having them play out a bit differently to how they would if the party had the initiative and decided how to run things. Giving up such a powerful tool for creating fun and different encounters should not be done lightly. Think of all those dramatic reveals and the excitement that you are throwing away.

Also as a DM, I'm fully in agreement with this. Through 1 lens there are 4 types of combat encounters the party will have: 1: some/ all enemies are surprised, 2: nobody is surprised, 3: some/ all party is surprised, and rarely, 4: some of each are surprised. If you give out this item you eliminate 2 of the possibilities, and as MrStabby says some of the underdog encounters where with a little creativity on your part become a lot tougher to make challenging.
Getting a 'free round' on occasion is really powerful; do you want your party to be immune to the effects of that?

[Frogreaver]

Just make sure to fit the weapon of warning to the character.

If the Paladin is a Polearm/sentinel sort of guy, do the man a solid and make it a warning weapon that fits his build.

I don't agree that this should be a general practice. It certainly is an acceptable practice, but so too should be more random methods of weapon generation.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't agree that this should be a general practice. It certainly is an acceptable practice, but so too should be more random methods of weapon generation.

This is an interesting debate IMO. How much (if any) should a DM be tailoring items to the party? Given the lack of magic weapon tables that one would have found in other editions it seems (as with much of 5e) that the DM is encouraged to tailor more to players than in the past. I do generally agree with you that somewhat random is best in most situations. Items found should be representative of items in the larger world; 1 handed Str based weapons should be fairly common, meaning a player who has gone S+B or 2-weapon likely is going to come across more items that will help them over a campaign.

2 Exceptions for me would usually be to boost a weaker player, and to at least make sure a martial has some sort of magic weapon by tier 2 so they aren't relegated to doing 1/2 damage regularly.

[OldTrees1]

C >> B > A

I like +0 magical weapons of XYZ much more than +1 weapons. Weapon of Warning is not particularly interesting but it is still more interesting than a +1. However there are effects that I would find even more interesting (although 5E does not have many uncommon +0 magic weapons).


I suggest homebrewing a +0 magical Bow of XYZ.

Edit: Weird idea. The Bow.
On hit, the target immediately bows. Maybe have a Cha save to resist? Maybe have a Dex save or fall?

[KorvinStarmast]

Just a little informal poll: Say you're a PC at 3rd level--would you rather find A) a +1 weapon, B) a Weapon of Warning
Weapon of Warning, all the way, for me.

Do not ever give a weapon of warning. Please. .
Also as a DM, I'm fully in agreement with this. Do you also dislike the Alert feat? :smallyuk:

[TheCleverGuy]

Hey, thanks for the help everyone. That the first three responses were so emphatically for the Weapon of Warning made me start thinking it would probably be a little too powerful, and then some of the later responses convinced me that I should not go that direction.

I do find basic +1 items to be sort of boring though. I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for other enchantments I could use that wouldn't be too overpowered? Even just some basic homebrewed stuff?

[Tanarii]

Yeah don't "give out" a weapon of warning unless attempted ambushes against the PCs are very rare in the first place, or the party splits up for scouting or something. If it only worked for one Pc it'd be one thing, but as is it's very powerful.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey, thanks for the help everyone. That the first three responses were so emphatically for the Weapon of Warning made me start thinking
Don't let the fun haters get you down.
(That was supposed to be blue)

[Tanarii]

Don't let the fun haters get you down.
Hey, some of us get our kicks watching PCs walk unprepared into an ambush because they didn't scout properly first. That's loving our fun, not hating it! :smallamused:

[5eNeedsDarksun]

You guys are no fun, really. Do you also hate the Alert feat? :smallyuk:

I'm fine with the feat and I'd be fine if the weapon gave the benefit to only the player (as I believe at least one other poster suggested). Completely removing the entire party from being surprised isn't fun in my view. Sure it's one of those things as a player you'd think, "Great, we're closer to being bulletproof!" Then play moves on and after a while you realize either the DM has removed any attempts to jump the party or the attempts are thwarted without any real effort or clever play. Is either of those options fun?

I'm reminded of the time I made a mistake of letting the entire party pick a magic item. Wouldn't you know it, 4 winged boots. I let the party have their fun for a couple of levels, but eventually somebody with a magic rod that drained the boots showed up and the party ended up on a Very Long quest to find the rod. When the entire party gets something that completely trivializes a whole section of encounters it just reduces variation of play.

[kazaryu]

This is an interesting debate IMO. How much (if any) should a DM be tailoring items to the party? Given the lack of magic weapon tables that one would have found in other editions it seems (as with much of 5e) that the DM is encouraged to tailor more to players than in the past. I do generally agree with you that somewhat random is best in most situations. Items found should be representative of items in the larger world; 1 handed Str based weapons should be fairly common, meaning a player who has gone S+B or 2-weapon likely is going to come across more items that will help them over a campaign.

2 Exceptions for me would usually be to boost a weaker player, and to at least make sure a martial has some sort of magic weapon by tier 2 so they aren't relegated to doing 1/2 damage regularly.

well, if the campaign is following 5e's original design intent (i.e. each magic item given should feel significant and have a story attached) then i think its pretty clera that those magic items had better be useful to the party. they don't HAVE to be magic weapons that fit a players build there are plenty of utiltiy magic items that don't. However, giving a +1 dagger to a party who's only martials are either bow or heavy weapon focused would be pretty lame.

OTOH, if you the campaign follows an older design idea, where the party can end up with several items, then i think you're more free to randomly generate loot or give items thematic to the encounter, whether it benefits the party or not.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I expect that the Paladin in the current campaign I'm running will be using theirs until the end of the campaign, the player recognizes it as a valuable and importantly passive group buff that is at most costing them a small bit of accuracy and damage in the future.

Personally, I would almost always prefer a weapon with a useful feature attached than one with a simple +X bonus. Sword of the Paruns has been my Paladins weapon for 10 of the 19 levels we've played, turns out that my party is low on reaction uses and is better at attacking than I am, pretty confident that I'd only replace it for a direct homebrew upgrade or a Holy Avenger.

Go for the Weapon of Warning or something else unique. +X weapons are basically pack filler, not a quest reward.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm of the minority...Personally I prefer having the +1 weapon, especially if its for a martial character. Yeah, being able have advantage on initiative is nice, but meh...I much prefer having the bonus to hit and bonus to damage. Given how 5e is, that +1 can actually make a surprisingly big different in attack rolls, especially when you pair it with all the other bonuses you can stack on.

As for the surprise bit, that's not gonna come up unless you get ambushed a ton. And even then, in order to be ambushed you need your NPCs to all roll higher than the party's lowest Passive Perception. That might work with one foe, but the statistical probability of an NPC rolling below the party's lowest Passive Perception increases with each and every NPC added to the ambush.

[Boci]

Worth noting the weapon of warning doesn't completely negate the disadvantages of being surprised if they're sleeping, but it certainly does mitigate them in a big way. The attackers are in position, the PCs out of position, they're prone so if they lose initially melee attackers will get advantage on their attacks in the first round. Stuff like mage armour will likely have expired, and RP dependant the fighter might be out of their armour and need to take an action to equipped a shield. But that a campsite ambush midsleep, for a midjourney ambush the only advantage is positioning, which can be a significant factor, but not always.

[Leon]

Every chaacter that took proficiency in perception now has that devalued, likewise everyone who opted for high wisdom. If the party gets ambushed, then their "cool thing" has just been crushed.

What a load of crock.
If They only took it for the benefit of not being ambushed maybe but by and large people are going to have those Skills or Stats for the many other uses they provide.
I would hazard that the Party would like to have ANY useful* magic item it can get and use. If in doubt make a list and assign a number to it and roll. As the party accrues items from the list remove the old and maybe add new ones.



*Ie not one of the many "filler items" that 5e has

[MrStabby]

What a load of crock.
If They only took it for the benefit of not being ambushed maybe but by and large people are going to have those Skills or Stats for the many other uses they provide.
I would hazard that the Party would like to have ANY useful* magic item it can get and use. If in doubt make a list and assign a number to it and roll. As the party accrues items from the list remove the old and maybe add new ones.



*Ie not one of the many "filler items" that 5e has

Maybe you don't consider the diminished liklihood of being surprised to be a relavent feature of high perception bonuses but I do value that and I suspect other people find it beneficial as well. I think the relevant feature here is whether ambushes are common.

If ambushes don't happen then the weapon of warning is a poor choice to give because it does nothing. If ambushes are common then the benefits of a good perception score to avoid these things become a lot more pronounced and valuable.

[Tanarii]

Maybe you don't consider the diminished liklihood of being surprised to be a relavent feature of high perception bonuses but I do value that and I suspect other people find it beneficial as well.
As far as I can tell, avoiding surprise is the number one reason Perception is so very highly rated.

[diplomancer]

Maybe you don't consider the diminished liklihood of being surprised to be a relavent feature of high perception bonuses but I do value that and I suspect other people find it beneficial as well. I think the relevant feature here is whether ambushes are common.

If ambushes don't happen then the weapon of warning is a poor choice to give because it does nothing. If ambushes are common then the benefits of a good perception score to avoid these things become a lot more pronounced and valuable.

Weapon of Warning would already be very good just with the advantage to Initiative.



I'm of the minority...Personally I prefer having the +1 weapon, especially if its for a martial character. Yeah, being able have advantage on initiative is nice, but meh...I much prefer having the bonus to hit and bonus to damage. Given how 5e is, that +1 can actually make a surprisingly big different in attack rolls, especially when you pair it with all the other bonuses you can stack on.

As for the surprise bit, that's not gonna come up unless you get ambushed a ton. And even then, in order to be ambushed you need your NPCs to all roll higher than the party's lowest Passive Perception. That might work with one foe, but the statistical probability of an NPC rolling below the party's lowest Passive Perception increases with each and every NPC added to the ambush.

In my experience, DMs love to ambush the party, probably because that's a very good way of really threatening it. And group checks are a thing, so if a DM uses that rule, ambushes can happen more often.

[Chronos]

For the party's first magic item, I would not tailor it to any of the players' builds. For the first 5th edition campaign I did, going from level 1 to level 14, we got our first magic weapon at level 2, and not until level 13ish did everyone in the party have all of the magic weapons they needed to suit their style. That had a few effects: First, it meant that there was a long stretch of time where "resistance to normal weapons" was meaningful without being utterly crippling. Second, it meant that, during that stretch, we had to face choices of "Do I use the weapon that fits my style, with all that entails, or the weapon that will get through the monster's resistances, or do I do something non-weapon", and choices are the core of interesting gameplay. Third, it meant that there were many opportunities for upgrades and "Yay, cool loot!", rather than just "Oh, another magic weapon inferior to what we've already got? Add it to the pile".

[Master O'Laughs]

Weapon of warning, no contest. The 30 foot radius aura of immunity to surprise is a life saver, which becomes obvious as soon as it foils the first ambush.
The advantage on initiative is also very nice, as is the fact that as a magic weapon, it bypasses resistance/immunity to non-magical BPS.
I played a Dex-paladin from 3rd to 8th with that (Dm gave 1 uncommon item of choice at start), and it was easily the most impactful item the party had.

Since you are a DM contemplating giving it out, consider this: Does the story expect the party to struggle when ambushed? If not, the weapon will be a lot of fun. If you want the PCs to have to deal with the surprised condition at any point, though, do not give it to them.

I suppose that there are also builds that would prefer some other item (say, a warlock wanting a rod of the pactkeeper), but a weapon of warning is great for anyone.

Very much this. As someone currently playing in Rime of the Frostmaiden, my DM gave me a weapon of warning and it has foiled every surprise encounter.

[da newt]

If you'd like to create a home brew magic weapon so that it is more interesting than a vanilla +1 there are a bunch of things you could do to add flavor to a UNCOMMON level weapon.

* add only a to hit modifier (1d4) or only a damage modifier (1d4 of XX type damage - like a weaker flame tongue).
* a weapon that can cast a lvl 1 spell or cantrip (lightning lure for example).
* a weapon that grants ADV to one skill (maybe perception).
* a weapon that double the damage die vs XX creature type (thematic).
* a weapon that always hits on a NAT 1 or grants an extra attack on a NAT 20.
* a lucky weapon - grants the benefits of a good luck stone and bypasses non magic weapon damage resistances.

etc. If you are looking for something more interesting than just a +1, make something that tickles your fancy.

[Mirth]

Just a little informal poll: Say you're a PC at 3rd level--would you rather find A) a +1 weapon, B) a Weapon of Warning, or C) something else entirely?

Weapon of Warding, no question. I've been in too many ambushes over the years. That weapon is amazing.

[MrStabby]

If you'd like to create a home brew magic weapon so that it is more interesting than a vanilla +1 there are a bunch of things you could do to add flavor to a UNCOMMON level weapon.

* add only a to hit modifier (1d4) or only a damage modifier (1d4 of XX type damage - like a weaker flame tongue).
* a weapon that can cast a lvl 1 spell or cantrip (lightning lure for example).
* a weapon that grants ADV to one skill (maybe perception).
* a weapon that double the damage die vs XX creature type (thematic).
* a weapon that always hits on a NAT 1 or grants an extra attack on a NAT 20.
* a lucky weapon - grants the benefits of a good luck stone and bypasses non magic weapon damage resistances.

etc. If you are looking for something more interesting than just a +1, make something that tickles your fancy.

Yeah, this is generally a good approach. I mean, the magic items in the DMG are all over the place (though as a world building excercise describing what are common or rare rather than what are powerful or not powerful they are OK).

Not using the DMG items is usually better than using them and I think that this kind of approach lets you tailor the power level for your party Just Right.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm fine with the feat and I'd be fine if the weapon gave the benefit to only the player (as I believe at least one other poster suggested). OK, I see the finer point there. (Particularly given the items rarity being common).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

For the party's first magic item, I would not tailor it to any of the players' builds. For the first 5th edition campaign I did, going from level 1 to level 14, we got our first magic weapon at level 2, and not until level 13ish did everyone in the party have all of the magic weapons they needed to suit their style. That had a few effects: First, it meant that there was a long stretch of time where "resistance to normal weapons" was meaningful without being utterly crippling. Second, it meant that, during that stretch, we had to face choices of "Do I use the weapon that fits my style, with all that entails, or the weapon that will get through the monster's resistances, or do I do something non-weapon", and choices are the core of interesting gameplay. Third, it meant that there were many opportunities for upgrades and "Yay, cool loot!", rather than just "Oh, another magic weapon inferior to what we've already got? Add it to the pile".

This is somewhat along the lines of what I've done, though probably I've given out a weapon that actually fit fighting style a little earlier than you. That weapon wasn't necessarily as strong as what was already placed in pre-written adventures, which is what we generally play.

There are some very strong weapons (and shields) in published mods that almost always suit Strength based S+B or 2-weapon builds. In some cases these more than compensate for any perceived or real benefit from GWM, even if I throw the GWM a generic +1 weapon. The benefit of SS is a little tougher to measure vs a high powered weapon due to benefits of ranged and Archery style.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I gave a weapon of warning to the group that KorvinStarmast is in. But not as purposeful loot (other than "whatever enemies have is loot") but because the guy they were facing should have had something like that and had a reputation of avoiding ambushes. It was a greatsword (for an all-dex party), but it's seen use.

I agree that straight +X weapons are boring. And I prefer to avoid them where possible.

[sithlordnergal]

In my experience, DMs love to ambush the party, probably because that's a very good way of really threatening it. And group checks are a thing, so if a DM uses that rule, ambushes can happen more often.

I have had DMs that enjoy trying to ambush the party...but they generally found it didn't work out well because of high passive perception. And this issue remains, even with group checks, since you take the average of all the rolls to figure out what their stealth is. Most NPCs don't have a Rogue with Expertise and Pass Without Trace to bring their average up.

[tsotate]

Most NPCs don't have a Rogue with Expertise and Pass Without Trace to bring their average up.

Turns out that they do, but those parties are all so well hidden that they get missed by the statisticians. The population of the Realms is about 1.5 times as large as we think, but there are just that many people with expertise in stealth.

[Tanarii]

In my experience, DMs love to ambush the party, probably because that's a very good way of really threatening it. And group checks are a thing, so if a DM uses that rule, ambushes can happen more often.
There is no way to use group checks for determine surprise without house ruling something. Since group checks don't generate any kind of outputting "stealth check" value for each individual defending creature to compare their passive perception to.

OTOH low passive perception PCs (base 10 if they have neither wisdom nor skill) are remarkably easy for monsters with a middling stealth check value to surprise, especially if the PCs are using Darkvision to move around and taking -5 to passive score. A trouble of 5 goblins has a 30% chance to ambush such a character, 100% if the PC is using darkvision and the goblins are beyond easy hearing range (more than say 60ft away).

And a PC's ally's passive perception doesn't help them, since surprise is determined individually for each PC based on their own passive perception.

[da newt]

If the PCs are sneaking around in the darkness, then the goblins also have a -5 to their PP, so it will not be that hard for the PCs to stealth past them unnoticed.

Also, if the hiding goblins are perceived by one of the unseen sneaky PCs with a high PP, then that PC gets a surprise attack vs the goblin too.

[Dr.Samurai]

Do not ever give a weapon of warning. Please.

Every chaacter that took proficiency in perception now has that devalued, likewise everyone who opted for high wisdom. If the party gets ambushed, then their "cool thing" has just been crushed. Or think of the monk 'always ready' never needing to grab a weapon or don armor; if the party gets to prepare for an encounter, then their advantages go. Or the peson who took the ritual caster feat (or has rituals as a class feaure) that was the person that could alarm the camp or use divination effects to reveal threats.

As a DM, there are a lot of cool encounters that you can run based on surprise - turning the underdog into a real threat as the party gets disturbed in their sleep and generally having them play out a bit differently to how they would if the party had the initiative and decided how to run things. Giving up such a powerful tool for creating fun and different encounters should not be done lightly. Think of all those dramatic reveals and the excitement that you are throwing away.
So, somewhat along these lines, my Barbarian received this weapon. Everyone else is finesse in the party so they can't use the longsword. I attuned to it to grant the party immunity to surprise, but it was a little irritating given that I already have Advantage on Initiative checks and can ignore Surprise if I Rage through my class features.

Getting a magic item just to have it be mostly redundant with your features is not fun. It did come in handy once for the rest of the party, though even if we had been surprised the encounter was pretty easy.

ETA: In this case my DM is my brother so we speak all the time about the campaign. His take is that I can't be pleased. My take was it benefits the party, so I'm using it, but I'm of the mind that were I the DM, I'd be careful not to give a player an item that is mostly redundant with their features. But I recognize the item benefits everyone so, it's not all bad.

[Tanarii]

If the PCs are sneaking around in the darkness, then the goblins also have a -5 to their PP, so it will not be that hard for the PCs to stealth past them unnoticed.

Also, if the hiding goblins are perceived by one of the unseen sneaky PCs with a high PP, then that PC gets a surprise attack vs the goblin too.
It's an ambush. The enemies already know the PCs are there. That's how ambushes work.

5e isn't old school BECMI, where you have two enemies walk around a corner and roll a d6 to see if they surprised each other. Surprise is used when one side attempts an ambush.

Edit: If your point is that PCs that have a good scout and the scout does their job properly won't walk into ambushes, they'll be launching them ... Yes. Agree. :smallwink:

[diplomancer]

So, somewhat along these lines, my Barbarian received this weapon. Everyone else is finesse in the party so they can't use the longsword. I attuned to it to grant the party immunity to surprise, but it was a little irritating given that I already have Advantage on Initiative checks and can ignore Surprise if I Rage through my class features.

Getting a magic item just to have it be mostly redundant with your features is not fun. It did come in handy once for the rest of the party, though even if we had been surprised the encounter was pretty easy.

ETA: In this case my DM is my brother so we speak all the time about the campaign. His take is that I can't be pleased. My take was it benefits the party, so I'm using it, but I'm of the mind that were I the DM, I'd be careful not to give a player an item that is mostly redundant with their features. But I recognize the item benefits everyone so, it's not all bad.

Unless the party was all stocked up with attunement items, why was it you that attuned to it? You don't need to actually use the sword, just attune to it, so if you're not going to use it in combat you might as well give it to the wizard. As far as I remember, you don't need to be proficient in a weapon to get attuned to it... and if the question is about monster damage resistance, I think you can get through it without attuning to the item; i.e, I don't think "it's magical" is one of the benefits that the weapon confers on the user.

[Leon]

Maybe you don't consider the diminished liklihood of being surprised to be a relavent feature of high perception bonuses but I do value that and I suspect other people find it beneficial as well. I think the relevant feature here is whether ambushes are common.

If ambushes don't happen then the weapon of warning is a poor choice to give because it does nothing. If ambushes are common then the benefits of a good perception score to avoid these things become a lot more pronounced and valuable.

Its a part of it the skill but its not the only part of the skill ~ the weapon of warning isn't going to let you see the trap in the darkness, the hidden object/switch, work out what is that thing/sound over there is etc. If ambushes dont happen then the other function of the weapon is going to work just fine, unless your in a game with no combat then in which case its prob a poor choice of item.

[Keravath]

As far as I can tell, avoiding surprise is the number one reason Perception is so very highly rated.

Actually, I usually like to have high perception because it is often used by DMs to notice everything. Traps, treasure, hidden doors, anything else hidden at all, anything that moves stealthily.

Negating surprise by having your passive perception higher than a creature's stealth check is convenient and extremely useful when it happens but I find a lot of DMs, when they set up a scenario where they want surprise to be a factor, might often just say that noticing the threat wasn't possible or that the hidden ambush rolled very high on the stealth check. Could it be rail roading? Maybe but unless it is mathematically impossible then who is to say that the opponents weren't just very well hidden?

In addition, since many DMs don't use passive perception even when it would make sense to do so, having a very high perception modifier is useful so that when you roll low you still get a reasonable result. A level 5 rogue with 16 wisdom and expertise will have a +9 modifier to perception - giving a minimum die roll of 10.

In actual play, the vast majority of perception checks are not for surprise.

[Keravath]

If the PCs are sneaking around in the darkness, then the goblins also have a -5 to their PP, so it will not be that hard for the PCs to stealth past them unnoticed.

Also, if the hiding goblins are perceived by one of the unseen sneaky PCs with a high PP, then that PC gets a surprise attack vs the goblin too.

Actually no. It is impossible for the characters to stealth "past" goblins. Folks seem to forget that stealth is meaningless if you have a clear view of the creature trying to stealth. If hidden goblins are watching a perfectly dark corridor then darkvision makes it dimly lit for them. There is no place to hide in that corridor so even with a stealth roll of 30 the goblins see the creatures. Stealth is irrelevant in that case.

On the other hand, if the characters were invisible, the character was a gloomstalker ranger (and thus considered invisible), or the character had the skulker feat - all of these abilities give the character the ability to hide in dimly lit conditions - then the goblins would have a -5 to passive perception to notice the hidden characters due to the dimly lit conditions.

The bottom line is that if you can be seen, then you can't hide, and stealth is irrelevant.

[Dr.Samurai]

Unless the party was all stocked up with attunement items, why was it you that attuned to it? You don't need to actually use the sword, just attune to it, so if you're not going to use it in combat you might as well give it to the wizard. As far as I remember, you don't need to be proficient in a weapon to get attuned to it... and if the question is about monster damage resistance, I think you can get through it without attuning to the item; i.e, I don't think "it's magical" is one of the benefits that the weapon confers on the user.
I actually wound up doing this last session:


So we found Zariel's sword and the cleric pulled it from the pedestal. Unfortunately, when he tried to attune to it it said he wasn't worthy. My barbarian, who had just opened the doors to the temple (which also required someone worthy) picks up the sword from the ground where the cleric threw it and can feel that the sword wants to attune. Well, I guess when you attune to Zariel's sword, a bunch of stuff happens. I grew wings and gained a fly speed, I gained Truesight, the weapon deals extra radiant on a hit. Oh my charisma went to 20. One thing that was interesting is that it gives you different personality traits that override any of your existing ones that might conflict with them. So my character had a flaw where he thinks the adherents of gods are fools. But he gained a personality trait where he strictly follows the rules of a LG deity. So that was an interesting roleplaying opportunity.

Anyways, back to the point... I give the Weapon of Warning to the ranger, he is the only one that has a free attunement slot at this point. We go to the final confrontation and enter a discussion with Zariel and her sword gets pulled from my hands and floats to her and she takes it up and gets redeemed. So now I no longer have the sword, and lose all those abilities, and I don't have the Sword of Warning either. We're about to enter the final fight next session, so I'll have to take the sword back from the Ranger with no time to attune.

Anyways, no big deal but just thought I'd share since something like what diplomancer is suggesting is actually happening in my game lol.

[da newt]

"Actually no. It is impossible for the characters to stealth "past" goblins. Folks seem to forget that stealth is meaningless if you have a clear view of the creature trying to stealth. If hidden goblins are watching a perfectly dark corridor then darkvision makes it dimly lit for them. There is no place to hide in that corridor so even with a stealth roll of 30 the goblins see the creatures. Stealth is irrelevant in that case."

Completely agree - if there is no cover at all, then hiding / stealthing is impossible. But then again, if there is no cover at all, what are the goblins hiding behind?

But my point was, even with dark vision the goblins will have a -5 to their passive perception of 9 for a resulting effective PP of just 4, so sneaking by them isn't very difficult (assuming you aren't in a white room void or other area with no cover at all).

[Keravath]

"Actually no. It is impossible for the characters to stealth "past" goblins. Folks seem to forget that stealth is meaningless if you have a clear view of the creature trying to stealth. If hidden goblins are watching a perfectly dark corridor then darkvision makes it dimly lit for them. There is no place to hide in that corridor so even with a stealth roll of 30 the goblins see the creatures. Stealth is irrelevant in that case."

Completely agree - if there is no cover at all, then hiding / stealthing is impossible. But then again, if there is no cover at all, what are the goblins hiding behind?

But my point was, even with dark vision the goblins will have a -5 to their passive perception of 9 for a resulting effective PP of just 4, so sneaking by them isn't very difficult (assuming you aren't in a white room void or other area with no cover at all).

Well most corridors I've seen have little in them that could be called cover. On the other hand, creatures hiding could be around a corner, behind a door that is ajar, looking through a peep hole allowing them to view an area without being seen etc.

Also, most intelligent creatures (even goblins) would set an ambush at a place where they can see but not be seen. Even if there are crates stacked haphazardly in the corridor, a moving creature has to move around them and if they aren't invisible then they can be clearly seen by a creature with darkvision - so they aren't hidden.

The issue in that case isn't stealth vs passive perception from the rules since if the creature is looking stealth doesn't help. It is a matter of determining whether the creature happens to be looking down the corridor when the other creature moves across it. The DM may decide to resolve that with a stealth roll but if a guard is alert and paying attention or even just looking down the corridor then the creature trying to "sneak" is automatically seen and a stealth check would automatically fail so the DM would likely not even ask for a roll if the DM adjudicates that the guard is alert and paying attention.