Your minions will turn on you if healed; how do you plan for that?

[King of Nowhere]

the main villain is using some kind of hellwasp swarms to dominate a bunch of high level characters into being her thralls.

A heal spell cast on those thralls would force the hellwasps out and free the thralls - which would then immediately turn on the villain. or maybe flee, still bad. The villain knows it. The players know it. And they have mass heal ready.

the villain, obviously, tries to use her thralls as support, in places where they are not oing to get hit. until the final fight, which is about to happen next week.

How would the villain deploy them to minimize the damage?

The first things I can think of are spreading far to avoid being all hit by one casting of mass heal. Then using the thralls in two dinstinct waves, again to not have all of them being hit at once.
Getting spell resistance would also help, though unfortunately the only thing the villain cannot access are cleric only spells (because the gods can't stop her directly, but they can at least stop giving spells to her thralls). so she can give them some items, which will only work if the party rolls a natural 1.
The wizard thralls will have spell turning, which will turn a heal. Can't share that with the others.
Possibly she can have one of her thralls (who won't be used in battle) cast dominate person on her own thralls. so that they're under domination by both wasps and spell, and they require now both a heal and a dispel to be freed entirely.

Those are the things I can think of, that the villain can do to protect her thralls. Any other ideas?

[Paragon]

Send a Major Image of your thralls first to eat up the spell, have the players panic when they realize nothing happens :p
I've done it to major effect and we still laugh about it to this day

[Tzardok]

Isn't there some positive counterpart to Deathward? Something that makes the target immune to positive energy for some time?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ring of Positive Protection (MIC) would work if he can get them. They're pretty expensive though and require a cleric only spell to create.

Other than that Mass Heal is targeted so anything that breaks LoS or LoE works (Wings of Cover, immediate action teleports, Celerity etc).
A Ring of Greater Counterspells or Spell-Battle would also work to either counter or redirect the Mass Heal, as would regular counterspelling.


Isn't there some positive counterpart to Deathward? Something that makes the target immune to positive energy for some time?

Life Ward (SpC), but it's cleric only.

[ciopo]

Do what you can to increase their will save. Heal is will negates(harmless), so the main villain can just order his minion to not accept healing from hostiles

a diamond mind equivalent of the crown of the white raven, with moment of perfect mind in it, will allow the minions to make a concentration check instead of the will save once per encounter, if they're spellcasters of any sort that should be fairly higher than their will save, assuming they kept concentration maxed, before falling back to normal will save.

Mass heal is 9th level, how many do you think they would prepare? I doubt they'll mprepare more than 2, but I don't know your players, nor their levels

[sleepyphoenixx]

Do what you can to increase their will save. Heal is will negates(harmless), so the main villain can just order his minion to not accept healing from hostiles

a diamond mind equivalent of the crown of the white raven, with moment of perfect mind in it, will allow the minions to make a concentration check instead of the will save once per encounter, if they're spellcasters of any sort that should be fairly higher than their will save, assuming they kept concentration maxed, before falling back to normal will save.

Mass heal is 9th level, how many do you think they would prepare? I doubt they'll mprepare more than 2, but I don't know your players, nor their levels

I'd honestly be more worried about Magic Circle against Evil than Heal or Mass Heal.
As soon as one of the minions comes into range of that the dominate effect will be suppressed and most preparations worthless. And afaik there is no way to block that.

[ciopo]

doesn't it have a will save just the same? I mean they are save : will negates(harmless), I would expect the minions to be ordered (or implied) to resist all spellcasting made against them by hostiles, no?

[InvisibleBison]

Life Ward (SpC), but it's cleric only.

It's a 4th level spell, so in theory it could be duplicated by limited wish, but given its relatively short duration and the fact that there seem to be a lot of thralls that might not be practical. It might be worthwhile for one or two special thralls, though.

[King of Nowhere]

Good catch on the will negates. Without checking, I assumed it was will halves, just like harm.

Illusions are going to be ineffective, the whole party has access to true sight (it's that kind of high power campaign).
prepared actions to block line of effect or to dispel are also good, though probably they require too much effort to keep up

The party is level 20 with additional powers and major artifacts, and they know what they are facing. I expect the cleric to have no less than 4 mass heal prepared, possibly more. plus he got a prc that lets him cast heal spontaneously. I'm planning an epic protracted fight, and I hope they'll have to burn through most of that stuff before winning.

magic circle against evil... well, I thought it wouldn't work on hellwasps because I thought it only worked on spells. Also, being inside the body, effects on the wasps are blocked. Rereading the description, protection from evil really should work, but in previous encounters with that villain it was established to not work, so it will stay houseruled that way. given the short range of the circle, though, if the villains spread out and dispel it when possible it shouldn't have been too bad either way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Illusions are going to be ineffective, the whole party has access to true sight (it's that kind of high power campaign).
prepared actions to block line of effect or to dispel are also good, though probably they require too much effort to keep up
Insidious Magic (PGtF) can help keep illusions relevant against True Seeing.


given the short range of the circle, though, if the villains spread out and dispel it when possible it shouldn't have been too bad either way.

My go-to as a player against mind control would be Coure Eladrin. They get a 20ft always-on MCaE and are on the SM3 list so SM5 summons 1d4+1 of them.
That's usually enough to cover most of a battlefield.

[Crake]

magic circle against evil... well, I thought it wouldn't work on hellwasps because I thought it only worked on spells. Also, being inside the body, effects on the wasps are blocked. Rereading the description, protection from evil really should work, but in previous encounters with that villain it was established to not work, so it will stay houseruled that way. given the short range of the circle, though, if the villains spread out and dispel it when possible it shouldn't have been too bad either way.

I'd disagree on it working anyway, because based on the description of the ability, the wasp isn't MENTALLY controlling the body, it's using it more like a puppet, but the effect manifests as dominate monster (made rather clear imo by the fact that it can inhabit a dead body, which, having no mind, cannot be mentally controlled). The effect is also Ex, and I think you'd be hard pressed to describe Ex abilities as being able to have mental control.

To the actual question at hand, I feel like there was a spell that was kinda the opposite of spark of life, and gave you undead traits? That would make heal manifest as harm instead, meaning sure, they'd deal a bunch of damage to your minions, but that would at least prevent them from being turned against you, and it would give the villain the sadistic glee of watching the party potentially kill the people they're trying to save. Naturally, it's dispellable, so if you want a more deviously wicked solution, cast embrace/shun the dark chaos and give all the minions tomb-tainted soul. Since, as we discussed before, the wasp control ISNT mental control, you'd need to be able to cast ACTUAL dominate person on them, to force them to pick tomb tainted soul with shun the dark chaos, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem given sufficient time to prepare for this contingency.

Of course, all that's gonna be fruitless if the players instead opt to just cast remove disease instead. That also works after all. No positive energy protection will work on that, but you could always just have a thall at the ready to just cast counterspells. Planar touchstone for the inquisition domain (forcefully gained via shun/embrace the dark chaos as above), a dispel cord, arcane mastery (again, DCFS), and a greater dispel will allow the NPC to auto-counter any spell cast by someone up to 5CL above themselves, as long as the CL is no more than 25. Dunno what CL your players throw around, but that might be sufficient. It's not a problem after all, if the spell just never goes off.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Send a Major Image of your thralls first to eat up the spell, have the players panic when they realize nothing happens :p
I've done it to major effect and we still laugh about it to this day

And sans never understands why people don't use their strongest attack first... That's why‚ folks!


Good catch on the will negates. Without checking, I assumed it was will halves, just like harm.

There is no save. Specific vulnerabilities to certain spells do not take into account the particular effect of the spell‚ only that it was "cast on the victim" (that's how it works on golems). If it did‚ then you would have to cast Harm instead since a hellwasp's victim is effectively a zombie and Heal works as Harm on them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Of course, all that's gonna be fruitless if the players instead opt to just cast remove disease instead. That also works after all. No positive energy protection will work on that, but you could always just have a thall at the ready to just cast counterspells. Planar touchstone for the inquisition domain (forcefully gained via shun/embrace the dark chaos as above), a dispel cord, arcane mastery (again, DCFS), and a greater dispel will allow the NPC to auto-counter any spell cast by someone up to 5CL above themselves, as long as the CL is no more than 25. Dunno what CL your players throw around, but that might be sufficient. It's not a problem after all, if the spell just never goes off.

Remove Disease can also be cast into a Ring of Counterspells to auto-counter it once without spending an action.
And at high level they're cheap enough to just give one to every mook.

[Crake]

Remove Disease can also be cast into a Ring of Counterspells to auto-counter it once without spending an action.
And at high level they're cheap enough to just give one to every mook.

Except it's a divine spell, and OP specified gods aren't giving their minions spells, so how are they filling the rings of counterspells with remove disease?

You could also planar ally a celestial that can cast it as an SLA, and bypass counterspelling entirely, since SLAs can't be counterspelled.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Do you have a competent caster minion? Like‚ someone who can at least cast wizard 6 spells (wizard 12 works‚ but higher is always better). You can Dark Chaos shuffle his feats to Improved Counterspell‚ Heighten‚ Arcane Thesis‚ Invisible Spell‚ Sanctum Spell‚ Earth Spell (not too hard if it is a wizard with wizard bonus feats). Counterspelling technically doesn't have a limit range as long as the target is within range of your spell. Gemjump is a wizard Conjuration spell with unlimited range. With all the metamagic‚ it can be Heightened to 10th level in a 6th level slot and be able to counter Mass Heal.

With Invisible spell‚ it probably won't be noticeable unless the players read a swarm's mind (which they might do‚ but at least it makes the battle interesting as a puzzle encounter more than just a spamming game). Now‚ it won't work if the players can cast two Heals in a row‚ but I assume they can't do that enough times for it to be a problem. And after the cleric passed their turn without casting a Mass Heal after realizing it doesn't work‚ you can still counter any Conjuration spell (still the best school in the game‚ and the one they will try to use if they want to run away).

It also works whatever the player's CL‚ which considering the campaign‚ might well be in the 30s.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Except it's a divine spell, and OP specified gods aren't giving their minions spells, so how are they filling the rings of counterspells with remove disease?
Just send out a few agents to buy or steal scrolls or wands of it if you have to. CL doesn't matter for this and unlike Mass Heal scrolls of Remove Disease should be reasonably common in most worlds.


You could also planar ally a celestial that can cast it as an SLA, and bypass counterspelling entirely, since SLAs can't be counterspelled.

Good point. Movanic Deva (FF) can be summoned with SM7 iirc. They have it.

[AsuraKyoko]

Given that the swarm's control ability is Ex, Antimagic field would nicely protect from Heal, Remove Disease, or anything else magical. Sure, it can be dispelled, but so can most other magical defenses.

Alternatively, if Antimagic field is problematic, you could use contingencies to either drop a mind control spell on them after the hellwasp swarms are removed, or to just kill them when one of those spells is cast, and command them to fail the save. A Finger of Death or something that is contingent to go off when someone targets them with a Heal/Mass Heal/Remove Disease would do the trick. You could also have the contingency teleport or plane shift them, too, if you still wanted them alive, but out of the way.

[Jervis]

It's a 4th level spell, so in theory it could be duplicated by limited wish, but given its relatively short duration and the fact that there seem to be a lot of thralls that might not be practical. It might be worthwhile for one or two special thralls, though.

Technically persisted life ward is also a 4th level spell, so is persisted reach chained extended echoing life ward, just don’t try to heighten it and limited wish should be able to replicate it.

Warning, doing this as a DM means that players are likely to start using limited wish to replicate persisted reach chained extended echoing divine power

[Troacctid]

IMO, you don't plan for it, because you're narcissistic enough that you can't conceive of anyone being so selfless as to cast healing spells on their enemies, arrogant enough to underestimate the heroes' capacity to know about this weakness, and hubristic enough to believe that your plans will never fail. I mean, come on, this is a villain we're talking about.

[King of Nowhere]

remove disease is also a druid spell, so the villain has it available. But I checked, it's also fort negates. Anyway, if the party cleric has to spend actions to target the thralls one by one, they are doing their job.
antimagic... wow, why didn't I think of it?
a few other suggestions are outside the power level of the table, or I will have to look them up more in detail later.


IMO, you don't plan for it, because you're narcissistic enough that you can't conceive of anyone being so selfless as to cast healing spells on their enemies, arrogant enough to underestimate the heroes' capacity to know about this weakness, and hubristic enough to believe that your plans will never fail. I mean, come on, this is a villain we're talking about.

She's not that kind of villain. this villain is a nymph that had a magical accident causing her to perceive the combined suffering of all creatures in a multiple miles radius. overwhelmed by it, she went crazy and decided that life is an evil contraption to perpetuate suffering and she must "bring peace" to everyone. she's really very selfless, if she wasn't she'd have committed suicide already; too bad she manifests her selflessness in trying hard to "help" people by mercy-killing them. She dismisses their protests as caused by that pesky self-preservation instinct, which is nature's dirtiest trick to push people to prolong their own suffering as long as possible.

She does have some arrogance in that her nymph boosts to AC and saving throws - plus a bunch of other powers she got - make her extremely difficult to hurt. But that's tempered by her knowing that all the adventurers that try to stop her have allies with diamonds for raising, and she has not, and she only has to get unlucky once. As for hubris... well, she thinks that the people she kill, deep within, actually want to get killed, and that eventually everyone else will realize it and stop fight her and just commit suicide. Does that count?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Doesn't she know there is an afterlife? And that people are judged on arbitrary criteria to be sent to eternal bliss or endless suffering even after death? Is she okay with sacrificing her own peace for the potential happiness of others? Does she know that people may fear the afterlife more than death? Does she intend on annihilating souls in the afterlife as well?

[Troacctid]

As for hubris... well, she thinks that the people she kill, deep within, actually want to get killed, and that eventually everyone else will realize it and stop fight her and just commit suicide. Does that count?
Absolutely it does.

[Anthrowhale]

Mechanically, Magic Jar + Persistent Skin of the Steel Dragon + caster level increases can grant spell resistance fairly effectively to minions.

[King of Nowhere]

Doesn't she know there is an afterlife? And that people are judged on arbitrary criteria to be sent to eternal bliss or endless suffering even after death? Is she okay with sacrificing her own peace for the potential happiness of others? Does she know that people may fear the afterlife more than death? Does she intend on annihilating souls in the afterlife as well?

she's aware that there is an afterlife. For most sapients. a few creatures, nymphs among them, don't go to afterlives. and my afterlife is simpler and a bit different from the canonical one.
she doesn't really care about the afterlife, though. if people are happy after they die, that's all the more reason to kill them. if they'll be unhappy, well, souls eventually degrade in the afterlife. It will be over, eventually, and it's not like living longer will make your afterlife less bad.
in any case, she hopes that by eradicating all animals (and possibly plants too, she's still unsure whether they suffer or not) the gods will die for lack of faith, and the general lack of life-generated magical energy will also collapse the afterlives and most planes. Maybe. She's not an expert, and that's very long term. Perhaps we should ask her?

Hey, cut me some slack, I'm doing what I can. My plan is simple, because simple plans are best. Use my powers to subjugate non-sapient life. Use my hordes of monsters to destroy sapient life, because those people will actually fight back. When there are no more people around, I can expand the influence of my power. Rinse and repeat until I take over the whole world. Then I'll just order all animals to kill themselves. I'm still unsure what to do with plants, I can't figure out whether they suffer or not. Life produces most of the magical field, so without life, the gods won't find sustenance, and they will die too. Possibly, all surving magic creatures will starve. But if that won't happen, there's nothing I can do about it. I've got to try; if I won't, nobody else will. Everyone else is under the compulsion of that cursed preservation instinct. I'm really surprised mind blank does not protect people from irrationally wanting to keep living, I had this super smart wizard captured and I told him to research an improved version, but some pesky adventurers kidnapped him before he could finish. Sad story, but life is pain, that's how it is.
I also can't do anything about bacteria, they are too widespread for even my power to eradicate. And maybe in time those surviving bacteria will evolve and become more complex, and make new animals and start suffering again. And the energy thus produced would coalesce and make new gods...
Damnit, you make a good point. So, change of plans! I take over the world, then instead of killing myself and everything else I can manage, I stay around and I keep some thralls good with research, and we research a super spell ritual to eradicate bacteria too! It will be hard for me, I really can't wait to put off this terrible burden and find peace, but if it helps people in the future I'm totally for it! Thank you for the idea. You seem smart, do you want to help?
I'm sorry I'd have to put you under the wasps to ensure your loialty, but you are still under the influence of self-preservation, it's for your own good. Don't worry about the discomfort, I researched a spell for it, you won't feel anything. Also, I noticed that creatures tend to feel better when they have sex, so I order my thralls to have as much sex as they can, because I love everything and I want everyone to be as happy as possible. Which is still not possible, life is pain, but well, if I can't end their suffering because I need them, I still try to make them less miserable.
What? You don't want to help me eradicate life? You're still under compulsion, I see. Don't worry, I'll set you free! Cast to stone! Quickened baleful polymorph! Now let's fix this insane addiction for "life" that you've got...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Perhaps we should ask her?

Ok, huge fan. Let's get this party started (or stopped, depending on your interpretation)

I'm still unsure what to do with plants, I can't figure out whether they suffer or not.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter. If they don't feel pain, they don't feel happiness, and whether they live or die has no influence on the global well-being balance. If they do, then they have to suffer as much as other creatures (life would not be unescapeable pain if you could escape it by just polymorphing into a plant). Destroy them all, burn their remains and scatter the ashes! But do that last. You wouldn't want other creatures to starve before you kill them or they "willingly commit suicide", would you? That would just be adding unnecessary suffering.


I'm really surprised mind blank does not protect people from irrationally wanting to keep living, I had this super smart wizard captured and I told him to research an improved version, but some pesky adventurers kidnapped him before he could finish. Sad story, but life is pain, that's how it is.
That's the thing, Survival Instinct is an extraordinary racial ability for basically all creature types (except maybe outsider, Construct and Undead). It is not negated by Mind Blank because it's not a magical compulsion effect, or any other kind of effect, it's just how they're born. You won't be able to negate it in any way. Your only way out is the very little percentage of suicidal people. Since it mostly happens to people around which great tragedies occur, I suspect it's an acquired template linked to negative energy, the same way people dying in especially violent circumstances can create a conduit to the Negative Energy Plane and spontaneously animate as undead.


I also can't do anything about bacteria, they are too widespread for even my power to eradicate. And maybe in time those surviving bacteria will evolve and become more complex, and make new animals and start suffering again. And the energy thus produced would coalesce and make new gods...
Two words: permanent gates. It takes a few weeks to create a permanent Gate to the Plane of Fire. With no sapient life to stop it, the elemental energy will slowly but surely engulf the whole planet before bacterias have time to evolve back up.


I'm sorry I'd have to put you under the wasps to ensure your loialty, but you are still under the influence of self-preservation, it's for your own good.
Yeah, see, that's your downfall here. Wasps are stupid. People are more intelligent. Even people who wouldn't follow your rules in normal circumstances. Lie. Tell them you will give them some lands after the world is cleansed, or that you will rebuild anew. They are brainwashed, sure, but you don't need them loyal. You need them to act for the annihilation of all life. Just ask cultists of Elder Evils, or Demogorgonists, or simply assassins to kill high-level threats to your power. You can convince them later or simply backstab them.


Also, I noticed that creatures tend to feel better when they have sex, so I order my thralls to have as much sex as they can, because I love everything and I want everyone to be as happy as possible.
You... Know your thralls are all already dead because of the wasps draining their energy, right? And that regular wasps can't have sex, only queens and princes? Or are you talking about other thralls?


What? You don't want to help me eradicate life? You're still under compulsion, I see. Don't worry, I'll set you free! Cast to stone! Quickened baleful polymorph! Now let's fix this insane addiction for "life" that you've got...
Well yeah, I am, but as I said it would be better to AAAAAAaaaahhh...

[rel]

If the villain has any non mind controlled (or expendable) followers, mundane disguises might make targeting the right enemies more difficult, even with true seeing.

And if you have decided to scatter lots of largely interchangeable hoodies around the battlefield, making a few of the ones at the back counterspelling or ranged sunder specialists should make life difficult enough for the spellcasters trying to land a mass heal or remove disease to buy the villain at least a few rounds to taunt the party, monologue or otherwise grandstand before they go down.

[King of Nowhere]

in the end, none of that mattered much. they arrived mid-battle to help the villain, they arrived by teleport, so they had to be bunched up. And they had to roll normal initiative, and the wizards actually rolled lowest of all. no spreadout, no counterspells, no prepared action to raise walls, because those who could have done that didn't get to act.

the double layer of wasps + domination held, though, so those guys could at least act for one round before switching side