Epic Spell - Can we make Eidolon Permanent?

[KoDT69]

As the title says. I know the Permanent seed or whatever is a 5x multiplier, but I'm trying to figure out what is the lowest Spellcraft DC to make basically a permanent clone of a dude at reduced level? I'm not attached to the 21st level version, it could be lower if necessary. I know a 400 DC is a bit high but I guess like 260 would be doable lol.
So as I type I'm just thinking a crap-ton of the Backlash damage mitigation factor would be ok. Any character making a DC that high probably has a big pool of HP which is easy to recover from. Or is there some way to boost Spellcraft aside from magic items?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ignore backlash damage.
You can just abuse the additional participants factor with the fact that SM9 lets you summon Ursinals and Firre who cast as 12th level wizards/clerics, so they can contribute 6th level spells.
Add metamagic cheese with Repeat Spell and Absorption to cast as many SM9's as you have caster levels and get at least -220 to the spellcraft DC.

Though permanently making a clone of someone at reduced level is what Simulacrum already does. No need to go epic for it.

[Max Caysey]

As the title says. I know the Permanent seed or whatever is a 5x multiplier, but I'm trying to figure out what is the lowest Spellcraft DC to make basically a permanent clone of a dude at reduced level? I'm not attached to the 21st level version, it could be lower if necessary. I know a 400 DC is a bit high but I guess like 260 would be doable lol.
So as I type I'm just thinking a crap-ton of the Backlash damage mitigation factor would be ok. Any character making a DC that high probably has a big pool of HP which is easy to recover from. Or is there some way to boost Spellcraft aside from magic items?

Any epic spell Can be mitigated Down to DC 0. Instantly granting you the spell for free. You basically just will it to be!

You can also buy a +1000 item to skills. It’s skill bonus squared times 100… but since wizards have unlimited funds with fabricate, it should be no problem!

[Biggus]

The DC would be 520 before mitigating factors (permanancy factor is applied after all other factors but before mitigating factors) assuming you don't want to pay an XP cost. As there's no limit to additional participants, this isn't a problem if you can access enough other casters.

As for boosting your Spellcraft, there's also no limit to what bonus an epic spell can give to an ability score, so cast an Int/Wis/Cha booster first with all your extra casters, then cast Eidolon.



You can also buy a +1000 item to skills. It’s skill bonus squared times 100… but since wizards have unlimited funds with fabricate, it should be no problem!

You can if you can find someone to sell you one...

Also, for skill items above +30 it's skill bonus squared x1000, due to the x10 epic price modifier.

[Max Caysey]

Also, for skill items above +30 it's skill bonus squared x1000, due to the x10 epic price modifier.

Huh… had forgotten that!

[noob]

Huh… had forgotten that!

I never read that rule and I could not find it anywhere.
Can someone show me the line indicating this rule?

[KoDT69]

Oh, I see. Epic is just really that poorly broken/thought out. Lol. Well I guess that makes it easier for me. This concept has crossed my mind a few times when thinking of different scenarios so I was just interested in the RAW approach.

Scenario 1 - You know how in Pokemon every city has the exact same Officer Jenny and Nurse Joy? What if we had Uber epic versions of them pumping out these Eidolons to accomplish it?

Scenario 2 - We got an Uber epic level Wizard that due to how the XP system works is not finding much of a challenge, therefore not gaining any new XP. He creates lower level version of himself and sends him off to gain XP then syphons it back little by little. Obviously he clones himself so he knows it's done efficiently because he doesn't trust anyone else to get the job done!

[SimonMoon6]

Why settle for Permanent? Permanent spells could still be dispelled. Instantaneous is the way to go. And you can get Instantaneous just by adding anything that will give you an instantaneous effect, since you use the shortest of all the durations, with Instantaneous being categorized as the shortest possible duration, even though it is actually the longest possible duration.

[RSGA]

I never read that rule and I could not find it anywhere.
Can someone show me the line indicating this rule?

For the SRD, it's in the section on making epic items, noting that if an epic magic item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed for non-epic, it triggers the *10. So that means that merely having a normal base price over 200k, caster level over 20, or mimicking a spell of level over 9 doesn't trigger the multiplier if it doesn't also happen to give a too big bonus.

Probably in a similar section in the actual book.

[Biggus]

I never read that rule and I could not find it anywhere.
Can someone show me the line indicating this rule?


In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item. [...] Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.


Market Price

Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.

Why it says "enhancement bonus" is a mystery for the ages, given that no items in the ELH (or anywhere else I'm aware of) give enhancement bonuses to skills. But given the prices of other items in the ELH, the intent is clear enough.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm

Original is ELH p.123-124.


Why settle for Permanent? Permanent spells could still be dispelled. Instantaneous is the way to go. And you can get Instantaneous just by adding anything that will give you an instantaneous effect, since you use the shortest of all the durations, with Instantaneous being categorized as the shortest possible duration, even though it is actually the longest possible duration.

Where does it say that Instantaneous is categorized as the shortest duration?

[icefractal]

Huh, Eidolon is an interesting mix of not very good and completely broken.
Like, for most uses, and if you treat the negative levels like the trade-off they're presented as, it's a very expensive version of Simulacrum that's worse in most ways.

But, note that the negative levels are just regular negative levels. They're not unremovable, the Eidolon doesn't go away if they're removed, they're just a side effect that's trivial to deal with by Epic levels. And that the copies come in with full spell slots and can explicitly cast Eidolon themselves if high enough level.

So, you cast Eidolon, take the maximum amount of negative levels so it's a full-strength copy, and then use Greater Restoration to remove them all. Then the Eidolon does the same thing. Twice. Like a Solar Cascade, but instead of Solars it's Epic-level mages. With the default casting time and duration, you can prepare for seven hours and then send in about 500 trillion googol (2 ^ 381) copies of yourself to wreck somebody's **** for an hour, at the cost of a single Epic slot and 2500 xp, which a Rod of Excellent Magic can supply 2000 of.

Ice Assassin still makes it obsolete, but that spell wasn't written when the ELH came out. And Ice Assassin is blatantly broken anyway, so eh.


As for making it permanent, I'd consider the "Instantaneous (forever) is shorter than eight hours" thing sketchy. However, the base version of the spell (or just regular Simulacrum) already gives you the tools to make as cheap a version of an Epic spell as you want, just by recruiting enough helpers. So while I'd say "Instantaneous is at least double the cost of Permanent" makes more sense, even a 10x increase would only mean you need a bigger auditorium to conduct the ritual in.

[Xanyo]

Huh. I haven't actually looked at Ice Assassin until just now, but what I'm seeing is that A) it hates the original, although it's still under your absolute command and B) XP cost ew.

But coincidentally just last night I was putting together an alternate version of Eidolon with my desired flavor: ice statues (because I've been poking around with simulacra and frost mages and wanted an improved simulacrum). I removed some unnecessary limitations of Eidolon (particularly those that weren't required by any seed or accounted for in the spellcraft calculations), such as only being able to duplicate the caster and the whole negative levels thing. I also added my own limitation: the Ice Eidolon is capped at 20th level. I didn't really want hordes of epic casters wandering around. I also had the intent that a character casting this would have lots of simulacra or similar already to help with the ritual. Here's what I made.

Ice Eidolon [Ritual]
Spellcraft DC: 64
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 5’
Effect: One ice duplicate of target
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: No
SR: No
To Develop: 576,000 gp; 12 days; 23,040 xp

Upon casting Ice Eidolon, the caster creates out of ice a duplicate of an individual whose blood or flesh is used as a material component in the spell. The eidolon is a duplicate of the target as they were at 20th level, or as they are now if they are lower than 20th level. Unlike the original, however, the eidolon’s type is construct rather than whatever it would normally be. This means, among other things, that it lacks a constitution score and gains bonus hit points from size. It also has the cold subtype. Its appearance is that of a semi-transparent, glittering ice statue of the original with eyes that glow a soft blue. The eidolon has no possessions when created. The eidolon serves the caster, but an eidolon of a character whose alignment and goals conflict with the caster’s may act in indirect opposition to the caster (in cannot disobey direct orders, but it can subvert them). The eidolon cannot advance in level or abilities and does not count towards calculating and distributing XP. It can however gain XP if it overcomes challenges alone or with other eidolons or NPCs that would not be considered for calculating XP. It can only use this XP for purposes such as spells and crafting, as it cannot gain levels.

Material component: A sample of flesh or blood from the creature to be duplicated.

SEEDS (brackets are current total DC)
Conjure (21) to make base substance, Transform (21), nonliving substance to creature (+10), transform into specific individual (+25), change type to construct with cold subtype (+5) [82], permanent (x5) [410], 10 minute casting time (-18), 40d6 backlash (-40), 12 casters providing 5th level slots (-108) [244], 12 casters providing 4th level slots (-84) [160], 12 casters providing 3rd level slots (-60) [100], 12 casters providing 2nd level slots (-36) [64]


Note that I added a material component just to define the target, same as with Simulacrum and Ice Assassin. Turning it into a construct may mean some aspects of the original are lost (like massive piles of HP from high con or regeneration or any beneficial ability that doesn't work on constructs) in exchange for construct immunities and also the fluff.

The rules for the costs of researching and developing epic spells are very similar to those for crafting magic items. In fact, the only thing really calculated differently is the time required, being 1/50 what crafting an equally valued item would require. That and there's no market price, the base price and the material costs are equal. If you aren't breaking the economy and/or don't want to spend tens of thousands of XP on spell development, you could try to persuade your DM to allow you to use crafting cost reductions with spell development. Your discounts of choice being one option, but most importantly would be the opportunity to use ambrosia or agony for the XP cost. Or you could go hunting for venerable dragons to kill by yourself to get the XP you need.

Sidenote: my advice with this kind of minionmancy is to not bring it to battles and create a you-centric slog. Use your minions for utility, background stuff, running your affairs, helping you with your rituals, building and staffing your stronghold, etcetera. Use your minions to shape your own personal corner of the setting and develop a story. Don't use them to make it impossible for the DM to pose appropriate challenges without their own serious shenaniganry.

P.S. You could probably use Psychic Reformation to better abuse simulacra, ice assassins, and eidolons. No longer limited to duplicating an existing build exactly, you could create new feat arrangements and power selections and stuff. More debatable but also more versatile is retraining - considering simulacra can't gain levels or grow more powerful, I'd probably rule they can't retrain either. Otherwise you just get to make an army of custom character builds. Psychic Chirurgery might be able to fix an ice assassins hatred issues, and Mindrape definitely could. The former can also, it seems, restore true lost levels that were lost to negative levels (but not those lost to death). Being mind-affecting, however, these spells/powers would not work with my ice eidolons (unless prefaced with Greater Humanoid Essence).

[Zanos]

So as I type I'm just thinking a crap-ton of the Backlash damage mitigation factor would be ok. Any character making a DC that high probably has a big pool of HP which is easy to recover from. Or is there some way to boost Spellcraft aside from magic items?
Backlash damage applies every round if a spell has a duration, and is irreducible.

[Xanyo]

Backlash damage applies every round if a spell has a duration, and is irreducible.

That seemed weird to me when I read it and I decided it must be wrong/not intended, because several of the example epic spells have big backlash for permanent spells. Is casting Origin of Species: Achaierai really supposed to deal 50d6 points of irresistible damage per round to the caster for the rest of eternity? I could maybe understand it if it was per round of casting time rather than duration, but the same spell has a casting time of just over 100 days. There's no way the caster wouldn't be dead before they finish casting. Maybe it was supposed to be spread out across the casting time or duration or something? Regardless, as a DM I'd waive that, because it's not a functional rule.

[noob]

That seemed weird to me when I read it and I decided it must be wrong/not intended, because several of the example epic spells have big backlash for permanent spells. Is casting Origin of Species: Achaierai really supposed to deal 50d6 points of irresistible damage per round to the caster for the rest of eternity? I could maybe understand it if it was per round of casting time rather than duration, but the same spell has a casting time of just over 100 days. There's no way the caster wouldn't be dead before they finish casting. Maybe it was supposed to be spread out across the casting time or duration or something? Regardless, as a DM I'd waive that, because it's not a functional rule.

Yes absolutely, the caster for that spell just had to get fast healing 300 to mitigate the spell.
A bit like how in order to cast vengeful gaze of god you need to be level 100(due to the backlash cap rule) at which point dealing 305d6 damage seems a waste of time.(with the money to research that spell you could get enough pearls of thaumaturgy to recharge over and over time stop and delayed spell disintegrate until the opponent is dust far before reaching level 100 but nobody wants to sit down and create that many pearls except for the kind of people that would spend the days needed to make a DC400 epic spell so you are on your own to make those pearls)

[Zanos]

That seemed weird to me when I read it and I decided it must be wrong/not intended, because several of the example epic spells have big backlash for permanent spells. Is casting Origin of Species: Achaierai really supposed to deal 50d6 points of irresistible damage per round to the caster for the rest of eternity? I could maybe understand it if it was per round of casting time rather than duration, but the same spell has a casting time of just over 100 days. There's no way the caster wouldn't be dead before they finish casting. Maybe it was supposed to be spread out across the casting time or duration or something? Regardless, as a DM I'd waive that, because it's not a functional rule.
This is an issue with the conjure seed itself. Creating an entirely new, real, living thing out of magic should be instantaneous, not permanent, as permanent effects can be dispelled. Create Living Vault for example is instantaneous. In any case, not being good is not really a reason to think the rules are wrong or unintended. Frankly, nearly every sample epic spell is bad, and some are borderline unusable. Vengeful Gaze of God has a spellcraft dc of 418, costs 150k xp to develop, and hits the caster for 200d6 backlash damage. I don't think there's anything that indicates in that spell that the rules are being used in unintended ways, rather, I think the spell is just awful, and so are the epic spell rules. Ironically, I don't think any printed deity could even cast vengeful gaze of god.

[noob]

This is an issue with the conjure seed itself. Creating an entirely new, real, living thing out of magic should be instantaneous, not permanent, as permanent effects can be dispelled. Create Living Vault for example is instantaneous. In any case, not being good is not really a reason to think the rules are wrong or unintended. Frankly, nearly every sample epic spell is bad, and some are borderline unusable. Vengeful Gaze of God has a spellcraft dc of 418, costs 150k xp to develop, and hits the caster for 200d6 backlash damage. I don't think there's anything that indicates in that spell that the rules are being used in unintended ways, rather, I think the spell is just awful, and so are the epic spell rules. Ironically, I don't think any printed deity could even cast vengeful gaze of god.

Maybe that is why it is called vengeful gaze of god instead of vengeful gaze of the gods.

[KoDT69]

@Xanyo Hey I actually like your line of thinking. Oddly enough, this whole thread was pertaining to my highest level character (retired, ascended, will be an NPC indirectly). He was a Cleric that would craft constructs to fill in the melee (which wasn't necessary but the group was all new players other than me and DM) the others thought they needed the help, but I ran around healing and buffing the others to help them shine. It was actually awesome overall. But with the 3.5 framework the dude would have totally been pumping out clones of himself at lower level. So I'm going this route. Even tho ascended, the next game will be far off into the future where this dude's all but forgotten, but these strange constructs in his image are still kicking around with various lore bits associated. I'm thinking one of these clones or even a few may be around as well but would not offer up the info as to who they really are.