Optimized dragon cohort for a level 33 mage!

[Melcar]

Aloha everybody…

I was thinking of getting a dragon cohort for my level 33 mage…

I’m wondering what I could even get… the rules don’t seem clear to me!

I’m also looking for ways to optimize the dragon if at all possible.

I’m thinking about getting a Silver Dragon.

So if anyone might be able to advise some options? It would be great’

[AvatarVecna]

Aloha everybody…

I was thinking of getting a dragon cohort for my level 33 mage…

I’m wondering what I could even get… the rules don’t seem clear to me!

I’m also looking for ways to optimize the dragon if at all possible.

I’m thinking about getting a Silver Dragon.

So if anyone might be able to advise some options? It would be great’

I know this probably sounds like a stupid question, but "optimized for what?"

[Ramza00]

Draconic Cohort Feat is Leadership with 3 free LA (Draconomicon)

Tome or Hex Dragon, I prefer Tome (Dragon 343.)
These are nice for they give you spontaneous spells known over entire Wizard schools. Tome Dragon gives you all Divination and Conjuration Spells without using Spells Known also you can grab spells from the Knowledge Domain. Hex Dragons give you all Enchantment and Necromancy spells known without using Spells Known slots and you can also grab spells from the Knowledge Domain.
Juvenile Tome Dragons are the last Tome Dragon (all older dragons are not playable) with a Level Adjustment +7, with Wyrmling Tome Dragons being the easiest entry with a Level Adjustment of +5. A Juvenile Tome Dragon will be about 26 to 50 years old while the other younger age categories are younger.
Remember your Dragon can be lower HD forms and then take class levels like Sorcerer, Wizard, or Prestige Classes
Tome Dragon Draconic Polymorphs or Shapechanges into other Dragon Forms.
Dragon of Eberron via its Loredrake Dragon Archetype allows your Dragon Caster Level including Spells Known, to be 2 higher in exchange for d10 instead of d12 Hit Dice, and not being able to cast any cleric spells.


Alternatively play a Dragon who is a Spellhoarding Dragon who casts as a Wizard (Dragon 313) not Sorcerer. The Dragon has a hoard with lots of knowledge, but also stores spells in its hide as an alternative Spellbook. With Uncanny Forethought and Spell Mastery Feat chain the Dragon can cast like a sorcerer with lots of spontaneous spells per day before other things like Runestaffs.

I prefer this 2nd option of the Spellhoarding Dragon and Uncanny Forethought but that is just me.

[Maat Mons]

What's your leadership score? Epic Level Handbook lists a Wyrm Brass Dragon as an option for a character with Epic Leadership, having a level equivalent of 27. You'd need a leadership score of 44 to pull that off though.

If you're going with the Spellhoarding Dragon option (and it is awesome), I recommend one of the Dragon types that can access the full Cleric spell list. Normally, I'd say Bonze, Gold, or Silver for Alternate Form, but at these levels you can find other ways of going incognito.

Bear in mind, Spellhoarding requires the Dragon to have a higher-than-normal Int score, compared to others of the same type and age category. This means it can only be applied to Dragons that have had their ability scores customized by, e.g., the Elite Array. Of course, I think all Cohorts should have ability scores customized with the Elite Array, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Biggus]

Epic Level Handbook lists a Wyrm Brass Dragon as an option for a character with Epic Leadership, having a level equivalent of 27.


That was changed to level equivalent of 42 in ELH 3.5 update. Don't know why, as it's CR is 21 the original seems much fairer.

[Melcar]

I know this probably sounds like a stupid question, but "optimized for what?"

Well two things besically. Beign a mage, it would fit the bill if I had a dragon companion who could support research and study by being old and wise and having strong spellcasting abilities. I also would like it to be a teacher at the school/ academy my now level 33 pc has created. I use pc as a loose term since its played more like an NPC these days. Anyways having a poweful dragon in your midst cant hurt.



Draconic Cohort Feat is Leadership with 3 free LA (Draconomicon)

Tome or Hex Dragon, I prefer Tome (Dragon 343.)
These are nice for they give you spontaneous spells known over entire Wizard schools. Tome Dragon gives you all Divination and Conjuration Spells without using Spells Known also you can grab spells from the Knowledge Domain. Hex Dragons give you all Enchantment and Necromancy spells known without using Spells Known slots and you can also grab spells from the Knowledge Domain.
Juvenile Tome Dragons are the last Tome Dragon (all older dragons are not playable) with a Level Adjustment +7, with Wyrmling Tome Dragons being the easiest entry with a Level Adjustment of +5. A Juvenile Tome Dragon will be about 26 to 50 years old while the other younger age categories are younger.
Remember your Dragon can be lower HD forms and then take class levels like Sorcerer, Wizard, or Prestige Classes
Tome Dragon Draconic Polymorphs or Shapechanges into other Dragon Forms.
Dragon of Eberron via its Loredrake Dragon Archetype allows your Dragon Caster Level including Spells Known, to be 2 higher in exchange for d10 instead of d12 Hit Dice, and not being able to cast any cleric spells.


Alternatively play a Dragon who is a Spellhoarding Dragon who casts as a Wizard (Dragon 313) not Sorcerer. The Dragon has a hoard with lots of knowledge, but also stores spells in its hide as an alternative Spellbook. With Uncanny Forethought and Spell Mastery Feat chain the Dragon can cast like a sorcerer with lots of spontaneous spells per day before other things like Runestaffs.

I prefer this 2nd option of the Spellhoarding Dragon and Uncanny Forethought but that is just me.

Well I would want a dragon that mached my level. So it would have to be CR 25+ for it to make any sence. I have a free feat slot at level 33, and i'm either going to get epic leasership to advance my current cohort (a gnome illusionist/ Killer Gnome/ Shadowcraft mage build) from level 24 to 31 or get a dragon cohort. But I would want to dragon to be as close to CR 30 as possible because if not, advancing the gnome would be much better. Basically, they (Gnome and Dragon) have to be about the same power for a dragon cohort to become a viable option. Like, if a level 31 gnome ilusionist would wipe the floor with a the dragon cohort I would be able to get at level 33, then I'm going epic leadership. However, if I can create a dragon cohort who has about a 50/50 change of winning against that cohort, then it become a cooler option - because I already have the gnome cohort - albeit at level 24 only.

Thats why I'm exploring the options of seeing if I can get the dragon cohort option to match the power of a level 31 gnome illusionist (CR 30/31) with optimization, classes, templetes, etc...



What's your leadership score? Epic Level Handbook lists a Wyrm Brass Dragon as an option for a character with Epic Leadership, having a level equivalent of 27. You'd need a leadership score of 44 to pull that off though.

If you're going with the Spellhoarding Dragon option (and it is awesome), I recommend one of the Dragon types that can access the full Cleric spell list. Normally, I'd say Bonze, Gold, or Silver for Alternate Form, but at these levels you can find other ways of going incognito.

Bear in mind, Spellhoarding requires the Dragon to have a higher-than-normal Int score, compared to others of the same type and age category. This means it can only be applied to Dragons that have had their ability scores customized by, e.g., the Elite Array. Of course, I think all Cohorts should have ability scores customized with the Elite Array, so it shouldn't be a problem.

I do use elite array for all my cohorts. And non-elite array for followers!

I currently have a leadership score (without epic leadership) of 39 for attracting cohorts and 41 for attracting followers. With epic leadership that would go up to 67/69 respectfully.



That was changed to level equivalent of 42 in ELH 3.5 update. Don't know why, as it's CR is 21 the original seems much fairer.

That seems like a very wierd and useless nerf.

[Jack_Simth]

Well... LA tends towards excessive, so class levels will almost always get you more than the LA will. So minimize the LA.

If you grab Draconic Cohort and Leadership both, something like a half-Dragon Wizard is a good choice. And Shapechange means it can be a full dragon most of the time.

That said: You probably want a different casting style to shore up your own. So perhaps a Half-Dragon Druid with Dragon Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dragonWildShape).

[Biggus]

That seems like a very wierd and useless nerf.

Yeah, I'd see if your DM will allow you to use the 3.0 version. I'm a pretty conservative DM when it comes to cheese and I'd definitely allow it, the 3.5 version seems designed to say "ok, you can have a dragon cohort but it's going to suck so hard you might as well not bother". If they were going to do that, why allow it at all?

Anyway, assuming you can use the 3.0 version and that you take Epic Leadership:

An ancient silver dragon is a 30th level equivalent, which is CR 23. A wyrm silver dragon is CR 24, only higher by 1 so arguably could count as 31st level. Dragons are typically under-CR'd by 1, so you're looking at a real CR of about 25. This is without magic items; with gear appropriate to a 31st-level cohort this would go up by about 2-3, for an actual CR of about 27-28. So, not as good as an actual 31st-level NPC, but not terrible either (not having full WBL means that their CR will be a bit lower than their level in reality, probably about 29-30 depending exactly how much they have).

In general, even using the 3.0 version special cohorts are weaker than the standard ones by about 5-10 points of CR, so you're unlikely to get one which is fully as powerful unless you do something like Jack_Simth suggests and take a cohort who can Shapechange into one.

[Melcar]

Yeah, I'd see if your DM will allow you to use the 3.0 version. I'm a pretty conservative DM when it comes to cheese and I'd definitely allow it, the 3.5 version seems designed to say "ok, you can have a dragon cohort but it's going to suck so hard you might as well not bother". If they were going to do that, why allow it at all?

Anyway, assuming you can use the 3.0 version and that you take Epic Leadership:

An ancient silver dragon is a 30th level equivalent, which is CR 23. A wyrm silver dragon is CR 24, only higher by 1 so arguably could count as 31st level. Dragons are typically under-CR'd by 1, so you're looking at a real CR of about 25. This is without magic items; with gear appropriate to a 31st-level cohort this would go up by about 2-3, for an actual CR of about 27-28. So, not as good as an actual 31st-level NPC, but not terrible either (not having full WBL means that their CR will be a bit lower than their level in reality, probably about 29-30 depending exactly how much they have).

In general, even using the 3.0 version special cohorts are weaker than the standard ones by about 5-10 points of CR, so you're unlikely to get one which is fully as powerful unless you do something like Jack_Simth suggests and take a cohort who can Shapechange into one.


So, a few questions:

1) Assuming my DM chooses to use the LA adjustments rework from this forum - which I had been advocating, what HD dragon could I get?

2) If I ran with the 3.0 version of Epic Leadership, would I be correct in asserting that I would be able to get a HD 35 ancient silver dragon? (as a level 33) Would I also be correnct in saying that I would be able to apply the Loredrake sovereign archtype and Loredrake template to it?

3) Would getting a dragon cohort from epic leadership (as per ELH) supersede the gnome cohort I have now, or would I get another/ second cohort? I would namely really like to have two cohorts. One gnome illusionist and one dragon. That would be an awesome team at my school! - this is also the reason I wanted to use the feat Dragon Cohort and simple expand the list acordinly... So essentially go my level -2+3 as the HD of dragon I woudl be able to get - since no old dragons have any LA just a dash (-), which I understand to mean 0. While I understand it actually mean that the dragon cannot be a cohort, this is a fairly high op epic game, so that point I think is moot here.

[Maat Mons]

Wait, you said you don't yet have Epic Leadership, but you also said you already have an ECL 24 cohort?

[Anthrowhale]

It's typically better to hire a dragon at 500gp/HD/year as per the draconomicon rather than spending a feat. For example, that's 18k gp/year for a great wyrm tome dragon. Squeezing in Abjurant Champion 5 (granting caster level 41 @CR 31) and Persistent Strength of the True Form is gravy.

[Melcar]

Wait, you said you don't yet have Epic Leadership, but you also said you already have an ECL 24 cohort?
Indeed, I have high enough leadership to have a level 24 cohort as of now, using only normal leadership.

[Maat Mons]

My understanding is that, without Epic Leadership, it's impossible to have a cohort above 17th level. You seem to be saying that you already have a cohort above that level even though you don't yet have Epic Leadership. I don't see how that works.

[redking]

My understanding is that, without Epic Leadership, it's impossible to have a cohort above 17th level. You seem to be saying that you already have a cohort above that level even though you don't yet have Epic Leadership. I don't see how that works.

Those might be rules from Power of Faerun, which if I recall correctly, extended out the regular leadership feat to be inclusive of epic leadership.

[Melcar]

Those might be rules from Power of Faerun, which if I recall correctly, extended out the regular leadership feat to be inclusive of epic leadership.

They are indeed! However, under those rules you can still only get to 25 as base leadership score, which only includes level and charisma. The rest you might get, from say influence modifier, feats or items etc, are added beyond the 25.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Melcar]

It's typically better to hire a dragon at 500gp/HD/year as per the draconomicon rather than spending a feat. For example, that's 18k gp/year for a great wyrm tome dragon. Squeezing in Abjurant Champion 5 (granting caster level 41 @CR 31) and Persistent Strength of the True Form is gravy.

Does this rule apply to all dragons? Because then I’m hiring a Great Wyrm Time Dragon!!!



Okay, that makes sense.
Yeah, sorry, I should probably have made that more explicit!

[Anthrowhale]

Does this rule apply to all dragons? Because then I’m hiring a Great Wyrm Time Dragon!!!
The rules is in Draconomicon under 'Dragons as Mounts' under 'Negotiating Service' on page 138.

There are no stated limitations on the type of dragon, so it's just a question of what your character has encountered. It's explicitly stated as a consequence of diplomancy, since the dragon starts at 'indifferent' and if you can make it 'helpful' it agrees. It also says the arrangement won't last for long unless the dragon is within one alignment step.

[Biggus]

It's typically better to hire a dragon at 500gp/HD/year as per the draconomicon rather than spending a feat. For example, that's 18k gp/year for a great wyrm tome dragon. Squeezing in Abjurant Champion 5 (granting caster level 41 @CR 31) and Persistent Strength of the True Form is gravy.

Well, that's a really stupid rule. They had hiring NPCs based on level in A&EG but updated to it being based on level squared in DMG2, this needs the same treatment.

Compare to the Dragon Ally spell (SpC p.73):


Tasks requiring up to 1 minute percaster level require a payment of 50 gp per HD of the called dragon. For a task requiring up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 250 gp per HD. Long-term tasks (those requiring up to 1 day per caster level) require a payment of 500 gp per HD. Especially hazardous tasks require a greater gift, up to twice the given amount. A dragon never accepts less than the indicated amount, even for a nonhazardous task.


So, a few questions:

1) Assuming my DM chooses to use the LA adjustments rework from this forum - which I had been advocating, what HD dragon could I get?

2) If I ran with the 3.0 version of Epic Leadership, would I be correct in asserting that I would be able to get a HD 35 ancient silver dragon? (as a level 33) Would I also be correnct in saying that I would be able to apply the Loredrake sovereign archtype and Loredrake template to it?

3) Would getting a dragon cohort from epic leadership (as per ELH) supersede the gnome cohort I have now, or would I get another/ second cohort? I would namely really like to have two cohorts. One gnome illusionist and one dragon. That would be an awesome team at my school! - this is also the reason I wanted to use the feat Dragon Cohort and simple expand the list acordinly... So essentially go my level -2+3 as the HD of dragon I woudl be able to get - since no old dragons have any LA just a dash (-), which I understand to mean 0. While I understand it actually mean that the dragon cannot be a cohort, this is a fairly high op epic game, so that point I think is moot here.

1) If you're using the rules as they appear in the ELH, level adjustments don't come into special cohort calculations (they were a recently-introduced variant rule when the ELH came out). As far as I know, the DM just decides the level equivalent of a creature based on the examples given in the table. If you're using 3.5 rules with level adjustments for monster cohorts, disregard the ELH table completely and work them out as normal.

2) Using ELH rules, you could certainly get an ancient silver dragon, giving it an extra HD for level 31 equivalent seems entirely reasonable but you'd have to ask your DM. I'm pretty sure the table on p.37 of the ELH is the entirely of the rules about special cohorts, so templates and archetypes aren't covered.

3) It's not explicitly stated whether Dragon Cohort gives you an extra cohort on top of the one from Leadership, but it could be inferred that it does because other Leadership-like feats (such as Undead Leadership) specify that they don't stack with Leadership, but DC doesn't.

[Ramza00]

Does this rule apply to all dragons? Because then I’m hiring a Great Wyrm Time Dragon!!!



Yeah, sorry, I should probably have made that more explicit!

Dragons in the Great War were hired to kill all the kings and generals 🐉, then they decided to stop offering their services.

Mutually Assured Dragons!

[Melcar]

Compare to the Dragon Ally spell (SpC p.73):
.

Is it just me, or does it seem very strange to have to pay a summoned creature, who is in fact an aspect? A summoned dragon is no more real, than a summoned monster… even if called through Gate, (which calls a real creature) you still don’t have to pay… what I mean by that is that the Dragon Ally spell does not seem consistent with how summon spells work - ergo I would be very hesitant to use that as an example.

You point about the price of hiring tho might very well be correct. Which takes precedence Draconomicon or PHB2?

Not that price is important, I’m just curious as to what book I should rest the price on…

EDIT: I see I had the wrong version, and it has been changed to Conjuration (calling)…