Help making an OP hexblade?

[kaith282]

Hi Everyone!
After various events in the last campaign I'm playing, my character got a complete class change and became a hexblade. I usually work a lot on roleplay and social skills, but this time, since it makes sense that I suddenly become stronger at this point of the story, I would have liked to focus on damage optimization this time. Since I never played a Warlock before, I was overwhelmed by the amount of available options and I'm a bit confused. Can you help me build a really strong one? Thank you in advance!

PS Only two limits are that I would like it to be a dual weilder and that I'd like it to be good both in melee and ranged (eldritch blast).

Thank you everyone for you answers, didn't expect so many! After seeing your messages I thought it might be useful to add some info.
We are in the middle of the campaign so my starting level will be pretty high, level 13.
I agree with losing some utility if necessary, but I might also think about making him a bit weaker either in melee or ranged. Anyway, optimized damage would still be amazing. At this point, I might also consider using a single weapon. I'm trying to stay true to the original character's spirit while making these changes, but he is able to fight with one sword! Send your best ideas, you made me reconsider the limits I put hehe.

Might be able use feats that are exclusive for certain races since there are no elves and stuff in the setting, so they would remain unavailable otherwise and my Master said he could allow them.
Also, I'm a standard human.

I also consider multiclassing, as long as Hexblade remains the class with the highest number of levels!

[animorte]

Most of D&D 5e community: "You have chosen Hexblade. Congratulations, you are now OP."

First rule of Warlock: Agonizing Blast... I would also recommend Repelling Blast because the no-save, no-size limit, 10+ foot push is fantastic. Learn to position and you're golden.

[Skrum]

OK is multiclass on the table? Pure hexblade is very solid, but most of the reverence towards hexblade is the multiclass potential.

[Bobthewizard]

You'll need to go pact of the blade. Thirsting blade, eldritch smite, and eventually life drinker for invocations. Then you'll need agonizing blast to make eldritch blasts effective, and likely repelling blast. I think it's more fun to focus on one or the other so you can take some invocations for fun and flavor, but this is effective.

I'm not a huge fan of dual wielding on this build. Half-elf or elf with elven accuracy and great weapon master is better. But dual wielding will work ok. Just know the bonus action interferes with both hex and hexblade curse so you won't always get the second attack.

Straight hexblade is great, but you can consider dips in either sorcerer or bard for some low level spell slots, paladin for smites and low level slots, or fighter for action surge and a subclass.

[Skrum]

Most of D&D 5e community: "You have chosen Hexblade. Congratulations, you are now OP."

First rule of Warlock: Agonizing Blast... I would also recommend Repelling Blast because the no-save, no-size limit, 10+ foot push is fantastic. Learn to position and you're golden.

Heh, I'm gonna disagree there - if he wants to be melee and ranged, spending two invocations on ranged isn't really a great idea. I wouldn't take either of those things, honestly. Agonizing Blast is strictly EB damage, and if he's not blasting frequently, that's not a great investment. Repelling Blast even more so.

[animorte]

Heh, I'm gonna disagree there - if he wants to be melee and ranged, spending two invocations on ranged isn't really a great idea. I wouldn't take either of those things, honestly. Agonizing Blast is strictly EB damage, and if he's not blasting frequently, that's not a great investment. Repelling Blast even more so.

While I understand this sentiment, you might as well pick up one (or both) of them and maybe a utility invocation at level 2 (depending on party composition) because you can't get relevant melee invocations until higher levels anyway.

[Skrum]

While I understand this sentiment, you might as well pick up one (or both) of them and maybe a utility invocation at level 2 (depending on party composition) because you can't get relevant melee invocations until higher levels anyway.

Thirsting Blade is flatly required for the build, and that's at 5. Eldritch Smite if you want to have any kind of notable damage potential. Eldritch Mind if you want to maintain concentration as a melee character. That's your 3 invocations for 5th level. At level 7, I could see picking up Agonizing Blast. I guess if you wanted to stay more balanced you could switch Agonizing and Smite, but I definitely wouldn't take Agonizing over Mind or Thirsting Blade.

I favor Smite > Agonizing b/c Smite is a way more potent, boss-killer type attack. The auto-prone is huge, and even if you don't follow up with a grapple (great use of the secondary effect of Hex btw), if the initiative order is in your favor you can secure adv. for most of your party. But I could see taking Agonizing if you favor steadier, less bursty damage.

[Dork_Forge]

Thirsting Blade is flatly required for the build, and that's at 5. Eldritch Smite if you want to have any kind of notable damage potential. Eldritch Mind if you want to maintain concentration as a melee character. That's your 3 invocations for 5th level. At level 7, I could see picking up Agonizing Blast. I guess if you wanted to stay more balanced you could switch Agonizing and Smite, but I definitely wouldn't take Agonizing over Mind or Thirsting Blade.

I favor Smite > Agonizing b/c Smite is a way more potent, boss-killer type attack. The auto-prone is huge, and even if you don't follow up with a grapple (great use of the secondary effect of Hex btw), if the initiative order is in your favor you can secure adv. for most of your party. But I could see taking Agonizing if you favor steadier, less bursty damage.

If you're trying to juggle bladelock+range nowadays the answer is the feat that gives one additional invocation.

[Keravath]

Heh, I'm gonna disagree there - if he wants to be melee and ranged, spending two invocations on ranged isn't really a great idea. I wouldn't take either of those things, honestly. Agonizing Blast is strictly EB damage, and if he's not blasting frequently, that's not a great investment. Repelling Blast even more so.

My mostly melee warlock picked up Agonizing Blast as soon as there was a free invocation available. There are just too many situations in which a good ranged attack option is worthwhile and when it only costs one invocation the tax is pretty low.

A melee warlock needs Pact of the Blade (unless they decide to go tome warlock and use booming blade with shillelagh with one attack/round) Thirsting Blade which allows two attacks with the pact weapon, and usually improved pact weapon - they could take Agonizing blast as the remaining invocation - though there are lots of fun invocations.

The biggest "problem" is that it requires investment in feats and invocations for a melee warlock to do more damage than just Agonizing blast with a single invocation. Two weapon fighting is not one of those ways unfortunately.

P.S. I consider Eldritch Smite to be a "trap" option before level 11 - warlocks only have 2 spell slots and usually there are spells that are a better investment than using a spell slot to do a bit of extra damage and knock something prone - situationally it can be awesome but generally I don't find it that useful.

[Skrum]

I'm not *opposed* to agonizing blast - but I think there are several things better than it for a melee warlock. Take them first.

[animorte]

I'm not *opposed* to agonizing blast - but I think there are several things better than it for a melee warlock. Take them first.
Still disagree with this statement. Based on the bolded quote below, putting merely one invocation into creating a reliable ranged option is minimal effort for better rewards.


PS Only two limits are that I would like it to be a dual weilder and that I'd like it to be good both in melee and ranged (eldritch blast).

The thing about being good in both melee and range is not that you will necessarily have to sacrifice one for the other, but that you will have no invocations available for any form of utility. That is the issue nobody has really addressed. Are you ok with that, kaith282?

[Skrum]

Still disagree with this statement. Based on the bolded quote below, putting merely one invocation into creating a reliable ranged option is minimal effort for better rewards.


Take Eldritch Mind and maintain concentration on Hex. That'll increase your damage against the target whether you hit them at melee or range. EB + Hex is a respectable enough to fall back on when melee isn't possible or optimal.

To the OP - consider using the double-bladed scimitar. It has built in two-weapon fighting style and the duel-fighting feat (minus the +1 defense), and that's just for being proficient with it. It's really good. This would have good synergy with Hex as well, if you go that route.

Feat-wise, you've got a couple of options. Fey Touched gives you free casts, which are incredibly good for a warlock. Hexblood race is great for that as well. Hexblood with Fey Touched and you've got a free misty step, a free hex, a free disguise self, and another 1st level spell of your choice from the ench. or divination school. Silvery Barbs is the obvious pick, but there are other good ones as well.

Could also get heavy armor proficiency, thought remember you still have to hit Str requirements. May or may not be worth it. If you go this route, pick a background that gives athletics so you can at least make additional use of the points in Str to shove or grapple (synergy with Hex).

Drow or half-drow w/ drow magic is another very strong pick for race. They give a free spells and access to Elven Accuracy, which is incredibly potent with hexblade's curse.

That would probably be the three ways I'd recommend to play it -
1) hexblood, and take fey touched
2) half-drow w/ drow magic, take elven accuracy
3) some other race, take heavy armor proficiency.

IMO, Eldritch Mind is the hidden piece that makes hexblades tick. Especially once you reach 5th and can maintain Hex for up to 8 hours, casting it early in the day can make Hex a very potent source of damage.

Trap spell to avoid? Armor of Agathys. Avoid it. It's bad. You don't have the spell slots for that. Same with Hellish Rebuke. Don't take them, even though they're cool.

[J-H]

What level is your character?
A 1-level dip in Fighter at level 1 gets you Constitution saves, a fighting style, and heavy armor proficiency. Assuming you have access to full plate, you can pick up AC 19 or 21 (with a shield) pretty easily with this. I'm running a Fighter 1/Celestial (Blade) warlock 7 now and it's a big help to have good Con saves and high AC.

Eldritch Smite is meh because it consumes a spell slot, and you only get a couple of slots.

Hex is a decent spell, but consumes your bonus action to move around. Once you get 3rd and especially 5th level spell slots, Spirit Shroud is better. +1d8 or +2d8 damage on every hit beats out Hex, your bonus action is available for TWFing, and it prevents enemies from healing or regenerating. It also slows nearby enemies slightly so they can't run away as easily.

I would look at:
The two blade invocations
Cloak of Flies (free CHAMOD poison damage on adjacent enemies)
Fighter dip
Then pick spells as appropriate.

You have flexibility; use it. Get a few things that look fun and add versatility, like Flock of Familiars or Enemies Abound.

[Argis13]

Take Eldritch Mind and maintain concentration on Hex. That'll increase your damage against the target whether you hit them at melee or range. EB + Hex is a respectable enough to fall back on when melee isn't possible or optimal.

To the OP - consider using the double-bladed scimitar. It has built in two-weapon fighting style and the duel-fighting feat (minus the +1 defense), and that's just for being proficient with it. It's really good. This would have good synergy with Hex as well, if you go that route.

Feat-wise, you've got a couple of options. Fey Touched gives you free casts, which are incredibly good for a warlock. Hexblood race is great for that as well. Hexblood with Fey Touched and you've got a free misty step, a free hex, a free disguise self, and another 1st level spell of your choice from the ench. or divination school. Silvery Barbs is the obvious pick, but there are other good ones as well.

Could also get heavy armor proficiency, thought remember you still have to hit Str requirements. May or may not be worth it. If you go this route, pick a background that gives athletics so you can at least make additional use of the points in Str to shove or grapple (synergy with Hex).

Drow or half-drow w/ drow magic is another very strong pick for race. They give a free spells and access to Elven Accuracy, which is incredibly potent with hexblade's curse.

That would probably be the three ways I'd recommend to play it -
1) hexblood, and take fey touched
2) half-drow w/ drow magic, take elven accuracy
3) some other race, take heavy armor proficiency.

IMO, Eldritch Mind is the hidden piece that makes hexblades tick. Especially once you reach 5th and can maintain Hex for up to 8 hours, casting it early in the day can make Hex a very potent source of damage.

Trap spell to avoid? Armor of Agathys. Avoid it. It's bad. You don't have the spell slots for that. Same with Hellish Rebuke. Don't take them, even though they're cool.

Alright, a few things here. Two Weapon Fighting and hex just don't play nice together. Takes a bonus action to move hex, and TWF takes your bonus action. How often you have to not attack to move hex really depends on the number of enemies. If you're going to optimize, any threatening encounter has to have more than one big baddie to challenge the party, so we can expect more than one enemy if you're using a spell slot. You'll only be doing one attack the first round, to set it up, and then, depending on the number of enemies, moving it will seriously hamper your damage potential.

Second, you can't use Hex Warrior with a Weapon that has the Two-Handed property. This Double-Bladed scimitar has said property. If you didn't roll like a greek god and have fantastic DEX/STR, CHA, and decent CON, TWF doesn't work with Hexblade because you can have only one Hex Warrior weapon at a time, and all characters should have decent CON, and you need to keep you CHA at pace with ASIs while taking the right feats.

Third, Eldritch Mind is a good invocation. However, I would not recommend taking it for a melee Hexblade, as the fact that Warcaster letting you have a sword & board while spellcasting and 99% the benefit of Eldritch Mind is almost required, since you are stuck with one-handed weapons anyways. Take Eldritch Mind until you can take Warcaster, as +2 AC from a shield while spellcasting is too good to pass up.

The three builds are good as presented. Consider bless if DM has problems with silvery barbs - good use of concentration if you run out of Hexes. Elven Accuracy is great in general. Mountain Dwarf + Heavily Armored for the armor (No need to keep up STR) and two +2s, if your DM allows Tasha's Racial ASI Swapping.

I don't think that melee + hex is optimal for hexblade in general, however, except in the early game. Too easy to drop concentration on hex once too many times and get in a really poor situation, and the damage you do with hex doesn't scale at all as you go up in level. You'll be doing the same dpr with Hex up at level 20 as level 5, Apart from improving your Charisma, assuming you took thirsting blade invocation at level 5. Compare to investing in eldritch blast: It improves the number of beams you get at 11 and 17 as well as 5, and it's at range, and you get all sorts of fun invocations with it, and it also improves with your Charisma. Melee should be the backup plan, not the first thought, if you aren't Multiclassing. Hex, meanwhile, is a poor use of your concentration once you reach 5th level and get area shutdown spells like hypnotic pattern or hunger of hadar that simply end encounters.


Additionally, I do think that armor of agathys is a good spell, so long as you aren't focusing on melee and spending a bunch of slots on maintaining hex. I agree that hellish rebuke is a trap.


EDIT: Agree with J-H that spirit shroud is better than Ionce you get to 3rd level spell slots.

[animorte]

-snip-
If you aren't worried about the slot or concentration (probably War Caster over Eldritch Mind though), I agree that Hex is a solid damage boost.



Cloak of Flies (free CHAMOD poison damage on adjacent enemies)
You have flexibility; use it. Get a few things that look fun and add versatility, like Flock of Familiars or Enemies Abound.
I love Cloak of Flies and think it is quite underrated. Just be careful of allies.

The flexibility of the plausible Warlock builds is why they're my favorite class.

[Skrum]

Second, you can't use Hex Warrior with a Weapon that has the Two-Handed property.

Yup I forgot about that. So nevermind about that.

Re: Hex in general

The reason I like Hex is the duration. If you can make your Con saves, a single cast of hex can last you an entire adventuring day. Yes it takes your bonus action to move around, but that's usually not a problem. Cast hex in the first battle, rest and get your slots back, and now you've got 2 slot AND hex still running. A little fragile because you can drop concentration, but there's a lot of mileage to be gotten. Being efficient with slots is the #1 most important thing to playing a warlock effectively (for instance, if you've gotten to the "final battle" and you drop hex? Probably not worth recasting). But the mileage is why I strongly favor it over Shadow Blade or Spirit Shroud, spells with comparable effects.

[J-H]

Depending on your build and stats, you can also go a non-Cha Hexblade. My Fighter 1/Celestial Bladelock 7 has Str 16 and Cha 15. His DC is a bit low, but he hits pretty hard with his greataxe pact weapon. I just happen to use STR for to hit and damage.

Armor of Agathys can be optimized for. My Bladelock is a goliath, so he has 3 uses per long rest to reduce damage by 1d12+3 as a reaction. It helps stretch the AoA 15-20 temp HP for 1-2 additional instances of "no save, just damage" per combat.

[RSP]

Second, you can't use Hex Warrior with a Weapon that has the Two-Handed property.

Unless it’s also your Pact Weapon, then it gets the benefits of Hex Warrior regardless, I believe.

To the OP:

What level are you at? I’ve found melee Bladelocks don’t hold up well around the start of tier 3, in terms of staying up on the frontline. They just don’t have anything reliable or good enough to mitigate damage, and there are some heavy hitters at that point.

Just my two cents, but I’d be optimizing for other-than-melee if at (or approaching) that point: A blast lock with AB and RB would work better, I think.

[animorte]

What level are you at? I’ve found melee Bladelocks don’t hold up well around the start of tier 3, in terms of staying up on the frontline. They just don’t have anything reliable or good enough to mitigate damage, and there are some heavy hitters at that point.

Just my two cents, but I’d be optimizing for other-than-melee if at (or approaching) that point: A blast lock with AB and RB would work better, I think.
I believe your solution to this would be in the below:


OK is multiclass on the table? Pure hexblade is very solid, but most of the reverence towards hexblade is the multiclass potential.
Take a few levels into Paladin for the Channel Divinity and maybe up to auras. This would be more melee focused. If preferring better range, your AB + RB + Sorcerer levels instead.

[Hael]

Theres basically only 3 optimized hexblade builds b/c you are limited in what you can do, so you have to lean into things a bit.

The first is the standard blastlock with a shield. This is the easiest one, b/c your invocations are more free and hence will be a bit more caster oriented. EB/AB etc. Usually a summon for your concentration. Try to pick a race that has good keep away potential (Harengon etc)

The next are gish blade pact builds and yea, its pretty much elf/halfelf. Drow/ShadarKai.

Either Pam/GWM/EA or EA/SS (hexbow) and then potentially CBE late game if you get a magical hand xbow. These pretty much require investing heavy into invocations and the build usually needs darkness/ds early game to function (or faerie fire). They hit like trucks but are somewhat vulnerable to grappling/saves.

I played the Pamlock version into tier 3 and it was amongst the better gishes.

[kaith282]

Still disagree with this statement. Based on the bolded quote below, putting merely one invocation into creating a reliable ranged option is minimal effort for better rewards.



The thing about being good in both melee and range is not that you will necessarily have to sacrifice one for the other, but that you will have no invocations available for any form of utility. That is the issue nobody has really addressed. Are you ok with that, kaith282?

I'm actually okay with that, even though since it's already an advanced part of the campaign, my starting level with the new build would be level 13, so I don't know how big the issue will be. I should have enough invocations for both, shouldn't I? Anyway I will add more info on the main post! Thank you :smalltongue:

[Gignere]

Another option to build a switch hitting hexblade is to just get the improved pact weapon invocation and summon a long bow when you need range and summon a melee weapon when you need to melee. If you go elven accuracy it would apply to both range and melee. You still probably want to pick either GWM/SS but you wouldn’t be totally helpless when you need range or melee.

I second the double scimitar as a melee weapon. But this only works if you pick pact of the blade.

[Bobthewizard]

Second, you can't use Hex Warrior with a Weapon that has the Two-Handed property. This Double-Bladed scimitar has said property. If you didn't roll like a greek god and have fantastic DEX/STR, CHA, and decent CON, TWF doesn't work with Hexblade because you can have only one Hex Warrior weapon at a time, and all characters should have decent CON, and you need to keep you CHA at pace with ASIs while taking the right feats.



Yup I forgot about that. So nevermind about that.

If you take pact of the blade, you can use Charisma on two-handed heavy weapons.


Unless it’s also your Pact Weapon, then it gets the benefits of Hex Warrior regardless, I believe.

Correct


Another option to build a switch hitting hexblade is to just get the improved pact weapon invocation and summon a long bow when you need range and summon a melee weapon when you need to melee. If you go elven accuracy it would apply to both range and melee. You still probably want to pick either GWM/SS but you wouldn’t be totally helpless when you need range or melee.

As an elf or half elf, you can take both GWM and SS. SS is likely better damage than eldritch blast when you can get advantage. Although you can only use thirsting blade and life drinker with your pact weapon, not another weapon that is just your hex weapon.

[Khrysaes]

Take pact of the blade and the gunner feat.
Either have an artificer infusion, forge cleric level 1, or anyone that can cast the spell magic weapon, use it on a gun and then turn the gun into a magic weapon so that it can be turned into your pact weapon. You have 1 hexblade weapon (melee) and 1 pact weapon(gun) which also counts as a hexblade weapon.

Can also be done with a bow or crossbow.

I like multiclassing hexblade with swords bard. Swords bard abilities work on ranged weapons too.

[Skrum]

Daaamnn level 13. Ok then.

There's a million ways to make this character, but I'm liking an 11/2 split. Warlock 11 gives you 3 spell slots per SR, which is a massive improvement over 2. The other 2 levels I think should be fighter or sorcerer. Fighter if you want to be offensive (action surge novas are awesome), but sorcerer would give you additional slots to cast shield, silvery barbs, and absorb elements out of. Ironically, you should probably go sorcerer if you want to focus on melee, and fighter if you want to focus on range.

Fightlock
feats: war caster or skill expert, ASI (Cha), ASI (Cha)
take war caster if you want to sword and board. This provides additional defenses, which you'll need. Or, leave a hand open and take skill expert (athletics) for a eldritch smite/hex/grapple option

pact of the blade
invocations: agonizing blast, maddening hex, thirsting blade, eldritch smite, eldritch mind (if you didn't take war caster, something you like if you did. Repelling blast is a solid option)
also make sure to take fighter as your first level for heavy armor prof
stats: something like Str 15 (+1) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 15 (+1, +4 ASI's)

This is a pretty all-terrain option but because of your lack of slots and defensive reactions, I'd recommend sticking to range (3 EB + Hex + Maddening Hex is respectable) to soften targets up. When they get closer or you want to go for the kill, you can leap in with a 6d8 eldritch smite. You can follow it up with a grapple to maintain them being prone, if you didn't go for the shield. Action surge is fantastic nova material - one of the few ways to cast 2 leveled spells in a turn, or a spell plus an attack action. It's really strong.

Sorlock
I'd go for a basically the same build but orient a bit more towards melee. you'll need a background that gives athletics
feats: heavy armor prof, skill expert (athletics), ASI (cha)

Pact of the blade
invocations: thirsting blade, eldritch smite, cloak of flies*, eldritch mind, agonizing blast
sorcerer spells: shield, silvery barbs, absorb elements
Stats: same as above

So this build you can feel a little safer mixing it up because you have 3 slots to cast shield and silvery barbs out of (remember you can replenish them with your warlock slots too with your short rests. A single 5th level warlock spell is enough to get you back 2 of your sorcerer slots. Do this if you have warlock slots left going into a short rest). Keep cloak of flies and hex active as much as possible, knock enemies prone with eldritch smite, then grapple them. Your athletics check will be a very strong +13, and thanks to hex they'll generally have disadvantage on their roll. Now they have disadvantage on attacks, and you entire team as advantage. Cloak of flies is nice auto-damage to anyone you have grappled, if you take it.

*cloak of flies isn't terrible strong, so you could definitely swap this out for something else if you prefer. Dealer's choice.

[Keravath]

Second, you can't use Hex Warrior with a Weapon that has the Two-Handed property.


This isn't quite correct. This is a primary warlock character that is being discussed.

"If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type."

Hexwarrior works perfectly well with every pact weapon, no matter the weapon's type.

With 3 levels in hexblade warlock and Pact of the Blade, a warlock can summon up a two handed scimitar as their pact weapon and use hex warrior with it. It doesn't get around the bonus action economy issues but it is still likely a better choice than dual wielding.

[RSP]

Daaamnn level 13. Ok then.

Sorlock
I'd go for a basically the same build but orient a bit more towards melee. you'll need a background that gives athletics
feats: heavy armor prof, skill expert (athletics), ASI (cha)

sorcerer spells: shield, silvery barbs, absorb elements
Stats: same as above


If you go Divine Soul, you can add in Cure Wounds, and, if the campaign is going for a while, you can grab DS 3 next level for Meta Magic and 2nd level Sorc/Cleric Spells. Of note of these would be Aid, which, cast from a level 5 Warlock slot, would give 20 extra HPs.

Not world ending, but those 20 HPs can do a lot and lasts well past when that slot is recovered.

[Keravath]

Hi Everyone!
After various events in the last campaign I'm playing, my character got a complete class change and became a hexblade. I usually work a lot on roleplay and social skills, but this time, since it makes sense that I suddenly become stronger at this point of the story, I would have liked to focus on damage optimization this time. Since I never played a Warlock before, I was overwhelmed by the amount of available options and I'm a bit confused. Can you help me build a really strong one? Thank you in advance!

PS Only two limits are that I would like it to be a dual weilder and that I'd like it to be good both in melee and ranged (eldritch blast).

Thank you everyone for you answers, didn't expect so many! After seeing your messages I thought it might be useful to add some info.
We are in the middle of the campaign so my starting level will be pretty high, level 13.
I agree with losing some utility if necessary, but I might also think about making him a bit weaker either in melee or ranged. Anyway, optimized damage would still be amazing. At this point, I might also consider using a single weapon. I'm trying to stay true to the original character's spirit while making these changes, but he is able to fight with one sword! Send your best ideas, you made me reconsider the limits I put hehe.

Might be able use feats that are exclusive for certain races since there are no elves and stuff in the setting, so they would remain unavailable otherwise and my Master said he could allow them.
Also, I'm a standard human.

I also consider multiclassing, as long as Hexblade remains the class with the highest number of levels!

What are your level 1 starting stats for the character? Are the stats already set at level 13 or can they be changed? Answering some of your other questions and optimizing the character needs a bit more input.

Also, would the character use two handed weapons like a glaive or great sword?

A maximum damage hexblade would come from using PAM+GWM using a glaive or similar combined with Thirsting Blade, Life Drinker, and a reliable way to obtain advantage (like Shadow of Moil). Elven Accuracy increases both the chance to hit and crit (especially if you have hexblade's curse running). You also need resilient constitution since you need to have a good chance to maintain spell concentration in melee and I would take 12 levels in hexblade and one level in sorcerer. If you need darkvision then shadow sorcerer is a good pick.

Finally, include agonizing blast for an excellent ranged damage option.

[kaith282]

What are your level 1 starting stats for the character? Are the stats already set at level 13 or can they be changed? Answering some of your other questions and optimizing the character needs a bit more input.

Also, would the character use two handed weapons like a glaive or great sword?

A maximum damage hexblade would come from using PAM+GWM using a glaive or similar combined with Thirsting Blade, Life Drinker, and a reliable way to obtain advantage (like Shadow of Moil). Elven Accuracy increases both the chance to hit and crit (especially if you have hexblade's curse running). You also need resilient constitution since you need to have a good chance to maintain spell concentration in melee and I would take 12 levels in hexblade and one level in sorcerer. If you need darkvision then shadow sorcerer is a good pick.

Finally, include agonizing blast for an excellent ranged damage option.

My stats are made starting from a pointbuy that's a bit more than average I guess: 29 points. Stats would be 9, 14, 16, 10, 14, 16.
The idea is to improve Char to 20 with two ASIs and in case wisdom to 16 with Elven accuracy and Resilient. Kinda trying to stay true to the character as much as I can, and high wisdom is a must since he's senses work pretty good and has a strong will. Anyway, I'm here for suggestions and idea so feel free to change what sounds useless to you.
It would be okay to use a greatsword, but something like a glaive, despite being aesthetically appropriate, wouldn't be my character's cup of tea. If we have something to replace that and do as much damage, I would honestly prefer it.Reading your comments I'm getting an idea of what I want and I think pure Hexblade or a couple levels into fighter would be the best for the evolution of the character I have in mind. He is known to be a strong fighter and got magic lately after dying and making a deal with a Yokai. Because of this, I would like his magic to be mainly focused on improving his combat skills or giving some debuff. That's why I was looking at spells like Crown of stars and bestow curse, that loses its need for concentration with 5th level slots.

[Gignere]

My stats are made starting from a pointbuy that's a bit more than average I guess: 29 points. Stats would be 9, 14, 16, 10, 14, 16.
The idea is to improve Char to 20 with two ASIs and in case wisdom to 16 with Elven accuracy and Resilient. Kinda trying to stay true to the character as much as I can, and high wisdom is a must since he's senses work pretty good and has a strong will. Anyway, I'm here for suggestions and idea so feel free to change what sounds useless to you.
It would be okay to use a greatsword, but something like a glaive, despite being aesthetically appropriate, wouldn't be my character's cup of tea. If we have something to replace that and do as much damage, I would honestly prefer it.Reading your comments I'm getting an idea of what I want and I think pure Hexblade or a couple levels into fighter would be the best for the evolution of the character I have in mind. He is known to be a strong fighter and got magic lately after dying and making a deal with a Yokai. Because of this, I would like his magic to be mainly focused on improving his combat skills or giving some debuff. That's why I was looking at spells like Crown of stars and bestow curse, that loses its need for concentration with 5th level slots.

You can’t get resilient wisdom because warlock’s are proficient with wisdom saves. Resilient con would be great though and 14 with proficiency means great wis saves anyway.

My suggestion maybe 1 ASI for charisma, Elven Accuracy +1 Chr, Resilient con +1 con, +1 Chr and + 1 con.

I think you should get the following invocations:
1. Improved Pact Weapon
2. Thirsting blade
3. Devil’s sight
4. Eldritch Smite
5. Life Drinker
6. Whatever tickles your fancy

I wouldn’t rely on Eldritch Blast at all but rather when you need range just summon a long bow instead and in melee use either a greatsword or double bladed scimitar.

The best thing is that all your attack feats and invocations would apply to both your melee and range equally. Your next feat I would recommend would be either sharpshooter or GWM depending on you find yourself in melee or range more.

[Skrum]

You can’t get resilient wisdom because warlock’s are proficient with wisdom saves. Resilient con would be great though and 14 with proficiency means great wis saves anyway.

My suggestion maybe 1 ASI for charisma, Elven Accuracy +1 Chr, Resilient con +1 con, +1 Chr and + 1 con.

I think you should get the following invocations:
1. Improved Pact Weapon
2. Thirsting blade
3. Devil’s sight
4. Eldritch Smite
5. Life Drinker
6. Whatever tickles your fancy

I wouldn’t rely on Eldritch Blast at all but rather when you need range just summon a long bow instead and in melee use either a greatsword or double bladed scimitar.

The best thing is that all your attack feats and invocations would apply to both your melee and range equally. Your next feat I would recommend would be either sharpshooter or GWM depending on you find yourself in melee or range more.

Summoning a weapon takes an action. It is completely impractical to use it in combat.

Resil: Con is also....very questionable, IMO. I mean it does increase your actually Con save, which maybe is necessary at that level? But I think you're better off taking your first level as fighter. Do NOT take Resil: Con just for concentration checks. It's inferior to War Caster and Eldritch Mind.

[Gignere]

Summoning a weapon takes an action. It is completely impractical to use it in combat.

Resil: Con is also....very questionable, IMO. I mean it does increase your actually Con save, which maybe is necessary at that level? But I think you're better off taking your first level as fighter. Do NOT take Resil: Con just for concentration checks. It's inferior to War Caster and Eldritch Mind.

You should do the math on resilient con it is straight up better than advantage once your proficiency bonus hits about +4 and certainly at + 5.

[sithlordnergal]

My suggestion:

1) Take 2 levels of Fighter. That way you gain the Dual Wielding fighting style, and Action Surge.

2) Go Pact of the Blade.

3) You'll want the following Invocations:


Agonizing Blast: This gives you a powerful and reliable ranged attack
Improved Pact Weapon: Turns your Pact Weapon into a +1. Fun fact, due to the wording, it turns ANY weapon that lacks a +1 to +3 bonus into a +1. Including magic weapons. You can get a +1 Flametongue with this. It also allows you to use your weapon as your spell focus, so you don't really need War Caster
Thirsting Blade: Your Extra Attack
Eldritch Smite: This can be used to boost your nuke potential
Lifedrinker: If you get high enough to gain this, it'll be handy and up your damage a fair bit.



4) Feats


Dual Wielder: This will allow you to dual wield any weapon, to and including Lances
Fey Touched: +1 to Charisma and two free spells. You could take Shadow Touched too, but I find Misty Step is better for a Hexblade than Invisibility, plus Misty Step isn't on the Warlock spell list
Resilient Constitution: Fey Touched should help get you to 20 Charisma, and let you snag this. It'll help a ton with Concentration checks




EDIT: I just noticed you want to dual wield. I have changed my suggestion accordingly. If at all possible, become a small Creature, and buy yourself a mount. Then dual wield lances.

[kaith282]

You can’t get resilient wisdom because warlock’s are proficient with wisdom saves. Resilient con would be great though and 14 with proficiency means great wis saves anyway.

My suggestion maybe 1 ASI for charisma, Elven Accuracy +1 Chr, Resilient con +1 con, +1 Chr and + 1 con.

I think you should get the following invocations:
1. Improved Pact Weapon
2. Thirsting blade
3. Devil’s sight
4. Eldritch Smite
5. Life Drinker
6. Whatever tickles your fancy

I wouldn’t rely on Eldritch Blast at all but rather when you need range just summon a long bow instead and in melee use either a greatsword or double bladed scimitar.

The best thing is that all your attack feats and invocations would apply to both your melee and range equally. Your next feat I would recommend would be either sharpshooter or GWM depending on you find yourself in melee or range more.

Jeez I totally forgot about the wisdom saves haha I looked at too many classes lately :smallbiggrin:
I think I would be a main melee fighter. Also, I was trying to avoid ranged weapons because of the flavor. Summoning a sword is way too cooler than summoning a bow to me. Also, I would reflavor eldritch blast as blue/green spirit sword strikes thrown at distance, that would make me enjoy more playing from the rear once in a while. I also think Force damage isn't bad at all since we are going for high levels.

[RSP]

Summoning a sword is way too cooler than summoning a bow to me. Also, I would reflavor eldritch blast as blue/green spirit sword strikes thrown at distance, that would make me enjoy more playing from the rear once in a while.

I had a Bladelock where EB was throwing blades like Hela in Thor: Ragnorak. It does add to fun.

[sithlordnergal]

Summoning a weapon takes an action. It is completely impractical to use it in combat.

Resil: Con is also....very questionable, IMO. I mean it does increase your actually Con save, which maybe is necessary at that level? But I think you're better off taking your first level as fighter. Do NOT take Resil: Con just for concentration checks. It's inferior to War Caster and Eldritch Mind.

Yeah, you really don't want to be summoning a weapon in combat. Its essentially wasting your turn. That said, I disagree about Resi Con. War Caster is nice, but Resi Con is soo much better, since it applies to all Con saves. War Caster isn't going to do much for saves vs. Poisons or Diseases, and it actually becomes better than War Caster later on. Advantage is generally seen as effectively having a +5 to the roll. If you're using Tasha's rules, it should be child's play to get 15 Con, then take Resilient Con for 16. Even if you're only level 4, that's +5 to Con saves, equal to the advantage from War Caster.

[Quietus]

Summoning a weapon takes an action. It is completely impractical to use it in combat.

Resil: Con is also....very questionable, IMO. I mean it does increase your actually Con save, which maybe is necessary at that level? But I think you're better off taking your first level as fighter. Do NOT take Resil: Con just for concentration checks. It's inferior to War Caster and Eldritch Mind.

First level Fighter was my thought as well. Others have mentioned a 2/11 split, but I'd be doing 1/12. First level Fighter, get TWF fighting style + heavy armor + con saves, the rest Hexblade. This way you still get Life Drinker, applying double your charisma to damage on every hit. Sure, you lose out on that burst damage from Action Surge, but your damage every single turn is +5 per hit, over 3 hits. I'd probably follow up by taking Fighter up to 3 (Eldritch Knight for a couple long rest spell slots to use with Shield, or Battlemaster for maneuvers), then back to Hexblade, capping at 17 for 4 spell slots and your 9th level mystic arcanum.

As a 12th level Warlock, you've got 6 invocations; Agonizing Blast to make EB shine, plus Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, and Lifedrinker. Leaves you with 2 more invocations to spend on whatever you like.

[Keravath]

The biggest problem with fighter for heavy armor is that the character needs to put 15 into strength to make it feasible though this could be done by dropping dex to 8 and drop wisdom or con to get the extra points needed.

In addition, without either PAM for the bonus action attack or GWM for the additional damage, the character will do less damage with weapons than Eldritch blast with the one Agonizing blast invocation. (EB+AB at level 13 is 3x(d10+5) ... two weapon fighting even with the fighting style is only 3x(d6+5) and it uses your bonus action so a lot of the time it will just be 2x(d6+5). If you invest in the dual wielder feat which is a big price to pay this goes to 2x(d8+5) for using non-light one handed weapons. It can be boosted by using Spirit Shroud but that applies equally to any weapon attacks.

Two weapon fighting just doesn't lead to an "OP" hexblade since you can't even keep up with the damage from Agonizing blast.

Lifedrinker is good because it can add extra charisma damage on each attack with your pact weapon - but that again doesn't synergize well with two weapon fighting since one of the weapons won't be the pact weapon.

Con saves are extremely important for a melee fighter with spells - so either one level of Sorcerer or Artificer or Fighter to start followed by 12 levels of hexblade, or pick up resilient con. Pick up the Eldritch mind invocation for advantage if you need it.

Since standard human doesn't have darkvision - I'd also recommend the devil's sight invocation (see perfectly in totally dark conditions) or a level of shadow sorcerer.

A level of Artificer or Shadow sorcerer has the added benefit of 2 first level spell slots. Sorcerer also adds 4 cantrips. These spell slots are very useful for shield or extra castings of hex during an adventuring day. It feels bad using a 5th level slot for the shield spell - you have better things to use them for.

If your character would not use a glaive/spear/staff (which would work with Polearm Master) but would use a great sword then picking up GWM might be good.

However, without starting as a variant human, you only have 3 feats to play with. Two are needed if you want charisma to be 20 which leaves one for GWM or resilient or whatever.

So, you need to prioritize what is most important to your character.

Also, you haven't mentioned any magical weapons or other items - a magical weapon can become your pact weapon and then you don't need the improved pact weapon invocation.

Anyway - my suggestion for what it is worth -

1 shadow sorcerer - 2 1st level spells, 4 cantrips, con saves
2-13 hexblade warlock - pact of the blade

2 x ASI charisma +2, 1xGWM - you get a bonus action attack on a crit or kill. Use the -5,+10 for bonus damage if you have advantage or the target has a low AC. Maxing charisma gives the best chance to hit.

If you stick with hexblade you might have two more feats which could be Elven accuracy, Fey Touched, or resilient wis. Alternatively, you could go with hexblade 12/sorcerer 8 or whatever variation seems best - more sorcerer levels means more magical options.

Invocations would be something like (6 known at 12th level).
- Agonizing Blast
- Thirsting Blade
- Life Drinker
- Improved Pact Weapon (if you don't have a better weapon that you can make into your pact weapon - however, IPW works well with magic weapons with damage bonuses like flametongue that don't have a +1 to hit/damage)
- Devils sight (if you don't have darkvision and maybe even if you do since devils sight lets you see in darkness as if it was brightly lit)

- Eldritch Smite (might be ok with 3x short rest level 5 slots to use it on - certainly nice on a crit)
- Eldritch Mind (advantage on concentration saves can be useful)
- Eldritch Sight (always available Detect Magic can be a very convenient utility ability)


If you do decide to start with fighter 1 then you will need to sacrifice some of the other stats to get to 15 strength and it doesn't get you that much.

Starting with one level of Artificer gets you con saves and some level 1 spell slots plus access to cure wounds and some other useful spells - however, these are int based and your int is a dump stat so I wouldn't really recommend it.

[kaith282]

First level Fighter was my thought as well. Others have mentioned a 2/11 split, but I'd be doing 1/12. First level Fighter, get TWF fighting style + heavy armor + con saves, the rest Hexblade. This way you still get Life Drinker, applying double your charisma to damage on every hit. Sure, you lose out on that burst damage from Action Surge, but your damage every single turn is +5 per hit, over 3 hits. I'd probably follow up by taking Fighter up to 3 (Eldritch Knight for a couple long rest spell slots to use with Shield, or Battlemaster for maneuvers), then back to Hexblade, capping at 17 for 4 spell slots and your 9th level mystic arcanum.

As a 12th level Warlock, you've got 6 invocations; Agonizing Blast to make EB shine, plus Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, and Lifedrinker. Leaves you with 2 more invocations to spend on whatever you like.

Over three hits assuming I'm dual-weilding, right? Or am I missing something?

[kaith282]

The biggest problem with fighter for heavy armor is that the character needs to put 15 into strength to make it feasible though this could be done by dropping dex to 8 and drop wisdom or con to get the extra points needed.

In addition, without either PAM for the bonus action attack or GWM for the additional damage, the character will do less damage with weapons than Eldritch blast with the one Agonizing blast invocation. (EB+AB at level 13 is 3x(d10+5) ... two weapon fighting even with the fighting style is only 3x(d6+5) and it uses your bonus action so a lot of the time it will just be 2x(d6+5). If you invest in the dual wielder feat which is a big price to pay this goes to 2x(d8+5) for using non-light one handed weapons. It can be boosted by using Spirit Shroud but that applies equally to any weapon attacks.

Two weapon fighting just doesn't lead to an "OP" hexblade since you can't even keep up with the damage from Agonizing blast.

Lifedrinker is good because it can add extra charisma damage on each attack with your pact weapon - but that again doesn't synergize well with two weapon fighting since one of the weapons won't be the pact weapon.

Con saves are extremely important for a melee fighter with spells - so either one level of Sorcerer or Artificer or Fighter to start followed by 12 levels of hexblade, or pick up resilient con. Pick up the Eldritch mind invocation for advantage if you need it.

Since standard human doesn't have darkvision - I'd also recommend the devil's sight invocation (see perfectly in totally dark conditions) or a level of shadow sorcerer.

A level of Artificer or Shadow sorcerer has the added benefit of 2 first level spell slots. Sorcerer also adds 4 cantrips. These spell slots are very useful for shield or extra castings of hex during an adventuring day. It feels bad using a 5th level slot for the shield spell - you have better things to use them for.

If your character would not use a glaive/spear/staff (which would work with Polearm Master) but would use a great sword then picking up GWM might be good.

However, without starting as a variant human, you only have 3 feats to play with. Two are needed if you want charisma to be 20 which leaves one for GWM or resilient or whatever.

So, you need to prioritize what is most important to your character.

Also, you haven't mentioned any magical weapons or other items - a magical weapon can become your pact weapon and then you don't need the improved pact weapon invocation.

Anyway - my suggestion for what it is worth -

1 shadow sorcerer - 2 1st level spells, 4 cantrips, con saves
2-13 hexblade warlock - pact of the blade

2 x ASI charisma +2, 1xGWM - you get a bonus action attack on a crit or kill. Use the -5,+10 for bonus damage if you have advantage or the target has a low AC. Maxing charisma gives the best chance to hit.

If you stick with hexblade you might have two more feats which could be Elven accuracy, Fey Touched, or resilient wis. Alternatively, you could go with hexblade 12/sorcerer 8 or whatever variation seems best - more sorcerer levels means more magical options.

Invocations would be something like (6 known at 12th level).
- Agonizing Blast
- Thirsting Blade
- Life Drinker
- Improved Pact Weapon (if you don't have a better weapon that you can make into your pact weapon - however, IPW works well with magic weapons with damage bonuses like flametongue that don't have a +1 to hit/damage)
- Devils sight (if you don't have darkvision and maybe even if you do since devils sight lets you see in darkness as if it was brightly lit)

- Eldritch Smite (might be ok with 3x short rest level 5 slots to use it on - certainly nice on a crit)
- Eldritch Mind (advantage on concentration saves can be useful)
- Eldritch Sight (always available Detect Magic can be a very convenient utility ability)


If you do decide to start with fighter 1 then you will need to sacrifice some of the other stats to get to 15 strength and it doesn't get you that much.

Starting with one level of Artificer gets you con saves and some level 1 spell slots plus access to cure wounds and some other useful spells - however, these are int based and your int is a dump stat so I wouldn't really recommend it.

Thank you for this long answer! I read it all and it made me think a lot. I'm thinking about getting variant human because I really wanted Elven Accuracy to be in the build, but I'm also afraid to make the character too different from the idea I have of it. I might also give up on 1 CHA ASI to get elven accuracy. Since we are playing with the flanking rule, I might have some happy moments with a bit of team play, making that +1 to hit almost useless compared to the huge advantage of being able to throw the dice a third time!

[kaith282]

You can’t get resilient wisdom because warlock’s are proficient with wisdom saves. Resilient con would be great though and 14 with proficiency means great wis saves anyway.

My suggestion maybe 1 ASI for charisma, Elven Accuracy +1 Chr, Resilient con +1 con, +1 Chr and + 1 con.

I think you should get the following invocations:
1. Improved Pact Weapon
2. Thirsting blade
3. Devil’s sight
4. Eldritch Smite
5. Life Drinker
6. Whatever tickles your fancy

I wouldn’t rely on Eldritch Blast at all but rather when you need range just summon a long bow instead and in melee use either a greatsword or double bladed scimitar.

The best thing is that all your attack feats and invocations would apply to both your melee and range equally. Your next feat I would recommend would be either sharpshooter or GWM depending on you find yourself in melee or range more.

Love the way you distributed my feats/ASI. But still, I feel like flanking + elven accuracy would be a great way to use GWM, what do you think?

[Gignere]

Love the way you distributed my feats/ASI. But still, I feel like flanking + elven accuracy would be a great way to use GWM, what do you think?

Yep I personally would have prioritized GWM over maxing Chr for myself, but one of your early posts stated you wanted max charisma.

You can swap out the +2 charisma ASI for GWM and you’re all good.

Anyway if you like EB instead the sixth and final invocation just needs to be agonizing blast in my proposed build and you can switch hit with greatsword and EB as needed.

[Quietus]

Over three hits assuming I'm dual-weilding, right? Or am I missing something?

Exactly correct. Kerevath is correct in that heavy armor won't help you without the strength to use it, though, unless you're a dwarf, so there's that. Where Kerevath is mistaken is in assuming you wouldn't keep up with damage, dual wielding with Lifedrinker.

Eldritch blast + agonizing blast : 3d10+15, with no magic item further enhancing the damage. Average 31.5 damage.
Dual wield scimitars/shortswords with lifedrinker : 3d6+30, average 39.5 damage. Magic weapons can increase this further.

[kaith282]

Yep I personally would have prioritized GWM over maxing Chr for myself, but one of your early posts stated you wanted max charisma.

You can swap out the +2 charisma ASI for GWM and you’re all good.

Anyway if you like EB instead the sixth and final invocation just needs to be agonizing blast in my proposed build and you can switch hit with greatsword and EB as needed.

Yeah I was trying to build up a sheet and that's exactly how I did it:

Elven Accuracy
Great Weapon Mastery

Devil's sight
Eldritch Smite
Lifedrinker
Sign of ill omen
Thirsting Blade

I would use Hex and Bestow curse, using my great advantage with flaking to strike always, tryina get a crit with my 30% chance per turn, just to release the Eldritch Smite.
Might use Darkness to crush minions/humans who don't have darkvision.

how would I improve damage from here?

[kaith282]

Exactly correct. Kerevath is correct in that heavy armor won't help you without the strength to use it, though, unless you're a dwarf, so there's that. Where Kerevath is mistaken is in assuming you wouldn't keep up with damage, dual wielding with Lifedrinker.

Eldritch blast + agonizing blast : 3d10+15, with no magic item further enhancing the damage. Average 31.5 damage.
Dual wield scimitars/shortswords with lifedrinker : 3d6+30, average 39.5 damage. Magic weapons can increase this further.

So you think dual weilding might even be superior to GWM?

[Quietus]

So you think dual weilding might even be superior to GWM?

Depends on what you're going for, but probably not. There's a reason PAM+GWM+Glaive is the gold standard for damage-dealing hexblades. Only needs a single weapon, no question on whether your off hand weapon gets Lifedrinker benefits, off-turn opportunity attacks, and the ability to throw big haymakers with GWM when the AC isn't too bad. I gave a TWF setup specifically because I thought I saw you asking for that in the OP.

[kaith282]

Depends on what you're going for, but probably not. There's a reason PAM+GWM+Glaive is the gold standard for damage-dealing hexblades. Only needs a single weapon, no question on whether your off hand weapon gets Lifedrinker benefits, off-turn opportunity attacks, and the ability to throw big haymakers with GWM when the AC isn't too bad. I gave a TWF setup specifically because I thought I saw you asking for that in the OP.

Yeah I wouldn't play a Glaive at all with this character, for purely aesthetic reasons. It just doesn't fit the character to me. But I would play a greatsword. What's better in your opinion, two weapons or one (excluding glaives)? :P

[Gignere]

Yeah I was trying to build up a sheet and that's exactly how I did it:

Elven Accuracy
Great Weapon Mastery

Devil's sight
Eldritch Smite
Lifedrinker
Sign of ill omen
Thirsting Blade

I would use Hex and Bestow curse, using my great advantage with flaking to strike always, tryina get a crit with my 30% chance per turn, just to release the Eldritch Smite.
Might use Darkness to crush minions/humans who don't have darkvision.

how would I improve damage from here?

I would skip Sign of Ill Omen you can only cast Bestow Curse once per long rest. You should be casting spirit shroud if you want more damage instead. Especially if you can get easy access to advantage via flanking.

One invocation you may consider is Relentless hex to help you get into and out of flanking position more easily.

[Quietus]

Yeah I wouldn't play a Glaive at all with this character, for purely aesthetic reasons. It just doesn't fit the character to me. But I would play a greatsword. What's better in your opinion, two weapons or one (excluding glaives)? :P

Without feats supporting either one? TWF for sure.

With GWM? The more damage any single weapon hit is worth normally, the less valuable GWM becomes. Sure, you're increasing the damage on a given hit by 10, but you're risking giving up the 1d6+10 you already have in the process... and you may not get a bonus action attack at all, which is itself another 1d6+10. I haven't done the math, but my instinct is that in terms of pure DPS against most reasonable AC's, they're probably roughly equal. The key there is that one of them requires a feat, the other wants a 1-level dip for a fighting style.

[Gignere]

Without feats supporting either one? TWF for sure.

With GWM? The more damage any single weapon hit is worth normally, the less valuable GWM becomes. Sure, you're increasing the damage on a given hit by 10, but you're risking giving up the 1d6+10 you already have in the process... and you may not get a bonus action attack at all, which is itself another 1d6+10. I haven't done the math, but my instinct is that in terms of pure DPS against most reasonable AC's, they're probably roughly equal. The key there is that one of them requires a feat, the other wants a 1-level dip for a fighting style.

And a generous DM to rule you have 2 pact weapons otherwise your offhand weapon is only getting d6+5.

[Frogreaver]

TWF is bad on a hexblade.

Best damage feat is PAM but if that’s out for aesthetic reasons then let’s move on.

A great sword with GWM, elven accuracy and flanking is going to be your next best option. Use spirit shroud with it and even with only 18 cha you are looking at 2d6+2d8+4+4+10 = 34 damage per attack. You’ll trigger bonus action attacks fairly regularly as well.

Sword and shield is going to be solid as well. 1d8+2d8+5+5 = 23.5. Keep in mind flanking works both ways so enemies will be hitting and criting you a lot more often as well. The shield can help a lot there. Bonus points if you find a +x magic shield.

In terms of later progression I’d stay warlock. At 17 you can take foresight which will be a large boon. Not to mention another slot, level 8 spells, and more invocations.

[Keravath]

Exactly correct. Kerevath is correct in that heavy armor won't help you without the strength to use it, though, unless you're a dwarf, so there's that. Where Kerevath is mistaken is in assuming you wouldn't keep up with damage, dual wielding with Lifedrinker.

Eldritch blast + agonizing blast : 3d10+15, with no magic item further enhancing the damage. Average 31.5 damage.
Dual wield scimitars/shortswords with lifedrinker : 3d6+30, average 39.5 damage. Magic weapons can increase this further.

Not quite.

Life drinker only applies to the pact weapon so the bonus isn't +30. In addition, without the two weapon fighting style you also won't get the stat bonus on the off hand attack so the number is more like 3d6+20 (unless you take an ASI or fighter level for the fighting style - I think the level in sorcerer is actually much better for this build) or 30.5 damage on average AND it takes your bonus action which is useful for other spells like hex or casting Spirit Shroud (though magic weapons will increase this).

On the other hand, the melee attacks can work well after the first round with Spirit Shroud active especially since the OPs campaign is using flanking which increases the to hit chance.

However, compare this to a greatsword with GWM. The damage is then 2x(2d6+20) = 54. It does have a -5 to hit. However, with reliable advantage from flanking combined with elven accuracy this shouldn't be a big deal. In addition, it doesn't conflict with the bonus action except when it earns an extra attack from a crit or kill.

I think the highest damage warlock build (Life Drinker, +5 stat, GWM, PAM) is something like a glaive with PAM+GWM which is 2x(d10+20) + (d4+20) = 51 + 22.5 = 73.5 which is probably not far off when using Elven Accuracy with flanking for advantage (or even just advantage). This can also be boosted by casting spirit shroud in the first round from a 5th level slot for an extra 2d8 damage on each attack which would bring the average damage/round to 100.5.

The fallacy in these comparisons is assuming that the extra +10 damage from GWM can be regularly applied which isn't true in many cases except against lower AC targets unless the attacker has advantage (ideally with Elven Accuracy).

In any case, no matter which way you look at it, the dual wielding option is still the weakest melee approach in this case.

[kaith282]

TWF is bad on a hexblade.

Best damage feat is PAM but if that’s out for aesthetic reasons then let’s move on.

A great sword with GWM, elven accuracy and flanking is going to be your next best option. Use spirit shroud with it and even with only 18 cha you are looking at 2d6+2d8+4+4+10 = 34 damage per attack. You’ll trigger bonus action attacks fairly regularly as well.

Sword and shield is going to be solid as well. 1d8+2d8+5+5 = 23.5. Keep in mind flanking works both ways so enemies will be hitting and criting you a lot more often as well. The shield can help a lot there. Bonus points if you find a +x magic shield.

In terms of later progression I’d stay warlock. At 17 you can take foresight which will be a large boon. Not to mention another slot, level 8 spells, and more invocations.

Might you specify the source of damage in your calculations? I'm creating 3 characters these days so I'm getting a bit confused haha

[kaith282]

Not quite.

Life drinker only applies to the pact weapon so the bonus isn't +30. In addition, without the two weapon fighting style you also won't get the stat bonus on the off hand attack so the number is more like 3d6+20 (unless you take an ASI or fighter level for the fighting style - I think the level in sorcerer is actually much better for this build) or 30.5 damage on average AND it takes your bonus action which is useful for other spells like hex or casting Spirit Shroud (though magic weapons will increase this).

On the other hand, the melee attacks can work well after the first round with Spirit Shroud active especially since the OPs campaign is using flanking which increases the to hit chance.

However, compare this to a greatsword with GWM. The damage is then 2x(2d6+20) = 54. It does have a -5 to hit. However, with reliable advantage from flanking combined with elven accuracy this shouldn't be a big deal. In addition, it doesn't conflict with the bonus action except when it earns an extra attack from a crit or kill.

I think the highest damage warlock build (Life Drinker, +5 stat, GWM, PAM) is something like a glaive with PAM+GWM which is 2x(d10+20) + (d4+20) = 51 + 22.5 = 73.5 which is probably not far off when using Elven Accuracy with flanking for advantage (or even just advantage). This can also be boosted by casting spirit shroud in the first round from a 5th level slot for an extra 2d8 damage on each attack which would bring the average damage/round to 100.5.

The fallacy in these comparisons is assuming that the extra +10 damage from GWM can be regularly applied which isn't true in many cases except against lower AC targets unless the attacker has advantage (ideally with Elven Accuracy).

In any case, no matter which way you look at it, the dual wielding option is still the weakest melee approach in this case.

So would you suggest to jump into Fighter or Sorcerer for a level or two, or pure Hexblade?
Also, I have some doubts about spells with concentration in melee. Since every attack would make me take a concentration check, isn't it very likely to lose the effect even in a single turn, against enemies with multiple attacks/multiple enemies?

[animorte]

So would you suggest to jump into Fighter or Sorcerer for a level or two, or pure Hexblade?
Also, I have some doubts about spells with concentration in melee. Since every attack would make me take a concentration check, isn't it very likely to lose the effect even in a single turn, against enemies with multiple attacks/multiple enemies?
That's why you need War Caster, but even then getting hit a lot will eventually cause you to fail.

Sorcerer, you might want level 3 for metamagic. Otherwise you still get a lot of low level spells for just 1 or 2 level dip, especially versatile options with Divine Soul.

Fighter, on the other hand, you only need level 2 for Action Surge. Also you get Fighting Style at level 1 (and Second Wind, but that scales with Fighter level so... eh).

I would probably recommend Fighter, especially sense you've mentioned several times preferring melee combat.

[kaith282]

That's why you need War Caster, but even then getting hit a lot will eventually cause you to fail.

Sorcerer, you might want level 3 for metamagic. Otherwise you still get a lot of low level spells for just 1 or 2 level dip, especially versatile options with Divine Soul.

Fighter, on the other hand, you only need level 2 for Action Surge. Also you get Fighting Style at level 1 (and Second Wind, but that scales with Fighter level so... eh).

I would probably recommend Fighter, especially sense you've mentioned several times preferring melee combat.

Yeah that's what worries me about Concentrarion spells, and why I tend to avoid them! Warlock has very few slots and I'd like to avoid spending them for something I can lose. Bestow curse, on the other hand, has a solid 1d8 that doesn't require concentration from level 5, after the enemy fails one check. So assuming I'm taking two levels in fighter , what would the average damage be? (please include damage source in the calculation)

Also I really want to thank everyone again for all the answers, didn't really expect that!

[Gignere]

Yeah that's what worries me about Concentrarion spells, and why I tend to avoid them! Warlock has very few slots and I'd like to avoid spending them for something I can lose. Bestow curse, on the other hand, has a solid 1d8 that doesn't require concentration from level 5, after the enemy fails one check. So assuming I'm taking two levels in fighter , what would the average damage be? (please include damage source in the calculation)

Also I really want to thank everyone again for all the answers, didn't really expect that!

Well that’s why I suggested to you to take resilient con and +1 to con. It brings your con save bonus at level 13 to +9 this means unless you take over 21 points of damage you can auto succeed on concentration checks.

It’s also why I don’t like any of the dips for this build. Like if you do 2 levels of fighter or 3 sorcerer you lose an ASI or feat and an invocation. I think a straight 13 hexblade is great for what you want to do, high DPR melee with great nova potential.

However if you must dip I would only suggest a single level dip, but getting con proficiency this way without increasing your con you still need to roll con saves everytime you get hit. Because your con save is a +8 instead of +9 so you don’t auto succeed DC10. For casters I always prioritize the auto succeed, so you don’t get the sh*t happens roll on concentration when you take 1-2 points of damage.

[kaith282]

Well that’s why I suggested to you to take resilient con and +1 to con. It brings your con save bonus at level 13 to +9 this means unless you take over 21 points of damage you can auto succeed on concentration checks.

It’s also why I don’t like any of the dips for this build. Like if you do 2 levels of fighter or 3 sorcerer you lose an ASI or feat and an invocation. I think a straight 13 hexblade is great for what you want to do, high DPR melee with great nova potential.

However if you must dip I would only suggest a single level dip, but getting con proficiency this way without increasing your con you still need to roll con saves everytime you get hit. Because your con save is a +8 instead of +9 so you don’t auto succeed DC10. For casters I always prioritize the auto succeed, so you don’t get the sh*t happens roll on concentration when you take 1-2 points of damage.

I was also reconsidering the dips, but for more than this reason. I love some of the spells I get later and I hate the idea of needing two more levels to get them seems horrible. Foresight at 17th is insane, and would completely remove the need of flanking for elven accuracy.
Also Crown of Stars seems like a good usage of my bonus action to boost my damage, isn't it?

[RSP]

I was also reconsidering the dips, but for more than this reason. I love some of the spells I get later and I hate the idea of needing two more levels to get them seems horrible. Foresight at 17th is insane, and would completely remove the need of flanking for elven accuracy.
Also Crown of Stars seems like a good usage of my bonus action to boost my damage, isn't it?

CoS is a fine spell, but will your DM allow upcasted lower level spell as your 7th Mystic Arcana?

Conjure Fey at level 7 gives you a Korred for an hour, which is ridiculous. It’s combat applications are great, including its spells. Out of combat, at-will Stone Shape can be ridiculous.

If you can add some Summons/Conjures to your arsenal, it’ll let another creature tank some encounters, mitigating (in my opinion) the Bladelock’s biggest issue, somewhat (that being a glass canon, particularly by T3, where you’re at).

The more you can stay in the back with EB, the better.

[kaith282]

CoS is a fine spell, but will your DM allow upcasted lower level spell as your 7th Mystic Arcana?

Conjure Fey at level 7 gives you a Korred for an hour, which is ridiculous. ItÂ’s combat applications are great, including its spells. Out of combat, at-will Stone Shape can be ridiculous.

If you can add some Summons/Conjures to your arsenal, itÂ’ll let another creature tank some encounters, mitigating (in my opinion) the BladelockÂ’s biggest issue, somewhat (that being a glass canon, particularly by T3, where youÂ’re at).

The more you can stay in the back with EB, the better.

I must adming casting lower level spells with my mystic arcanum slots sounds pretty broken in general. Armor of Agathys lv 9 would be a bit too much in melee imo. But I don't think he would allow it and he'd have all the reasons. Also, summons and servants are not my character's cup of tea. In fact, I think I will also open a thread for suggestions about how to modify the level 6 ability!

[RSP]

I must adming casting lower level spells with my mystic arcanum slots sounds pretty broken in general. Armor of Agathys lv 9 would be a bit too much in melee imo. But I don't think he would allow it and he'd have all the reasons. Also, summons and servants are not my character's cup of tea. In fact, I think I will also open a thread for suggestions about how to modify the level 6 ability!

Using a 9th level slot on AoA is not, in any way, broken: quite the opposite, in fact.

45 temp HPs, with melee damage rider while they last, for an hour, compared to Blade of Disaster, Foresight, True Polymorph, or Psychic Scream, is not in AoA’s favor.

AoA, in general, doesn’t tend to do as much as people who use it would like to believe. In most situations where it’s actually effective (does it’s damage when the tHPs are lost), it’s effectively just damage mitigation. If your goal is to maximize your damage output, you’ll do more damage with your Action than you would wasting your Action casting AoA and having its retribution damage kick in.

[kaith282]

Using a 9th level slot on AoA is not, in any way, broken: quite the opposite, in fact.

45 temp HPs, with melee damage rider while they last, for an hour, compared to Blade of Disaster, Foresight, True Polymorph, or Psychic Scream, is not in AoA’s favor.

AoA, in general, doesn’t tend to do as much as people who use it would like to believe. In most situations where it’s actually effective (does it’s damage when the tHPs are lost), it’s effectively just damage mitigation. If your goal is to maximize your damage output, you’ll do more damage with your Action than you would wasting your Action casting AoA and having its retribution damage kick in.

Anyway my 9th level is already taken by foresight, too juicy with elven accuracy! :P

[Keravath]

As a melee character you WILL be hit and you WILL need to make concentration saves since your spells will be an essential part of what you can do. You can't avoid this so you need to plan to deal with it.

The two options are the resilient con feat or taking level 1 in a class with con saves.

War caster isn't as good a choice as resilient con since by level 13 con save proficiency is better than advantage from War Caster and you can get advantage via the Eldritch Mind invocation anyway.

With a 14 con and proficiency you will have +7 on con saves at level 13, +8 with 16 con - even without advantage you fail most con saves only by rolling a 1 or a 2 (or just a 1). With advantage you fail about 1/100 (1/400 with 16 con) checks when hit for 20 damage or less on each attack. You won't be failing con saves very often. In addition, if you are being hit 3 times in a round for more than 20 damage on each attack - your character likely won't be around long enough for the concentration saves to actually matter.

----

This gives you a couple of options - however, you would probably need to play a variant human with slightly lower secondary stats to get all the feats you want by level 13.

I think you mentioned point buy with 29 points ..

Option 1: Variant human (pure 13 warlock) : 8 14 16 10 12 16 to start with resilient con (the +1s in con and cha)

ASI/Feat: GWM, Elven accuracy, Fey Touched/Telekinetic/Telepathy - gives 18 charisma and you would use your next feat to boost charisma to 20. Fey Touched is likely a good choice though Telekinetic or Telepathy might be fun too. If you aren't desperate for Elven Accuracy or your DM doesn't let you take it because you aren't an Elf then just take +2 cha for 20 cha.

Option 2: Variant human (first level sorcerer/ 12 warlock) : 9 14 14 10 13 16 to start with GWM

ASI/Feat: +2 cha, Elven Accuracy, Fey Touched (or other +1 cha feat). This gives you constitution saves for melee fighting with spells and 20 cha at level 13 with Elven Accuracy. You would take resilient wisdom at character level 17 (warlock 16) to improve wis saves for the end game.


Comments:

The first option has more hit points, slightly better con saves, both con and wis saves but will have 18 cha for three more levels before you bump it to 20 at level 16. It will have the level 7 arcanum already.

The second option has 20 charisma so all its attacks will have a greater chance to hit and do slightly more damage. In addition, it has 2 utility 1st level slots, 2 more spells known, 4 cantrips and a first level sorcerer feature like 120' darkvision for shadow sorcerer or even a cure wounds spell from divine soul. A cure wounds spell cast with a +5 stat out of one of your 5th level warlock slots can be a useful form of emergency healing but might not fit your character.

Either of these choices has trade offs/benefits - you just need to decide which is more important to you.

If you really want to stick with standard human then it will take even more levels to get all the feats/ASI you want to round out the character abilities and I personally think it would be less than ideal but that is your call :)

P.S. My personal choice would likely be option 1.

[RSP]

What spells are you thinking of running that rely on Concentration?

You can certainly invest to pass most checks, however, this degree of investment may not be needed. CoS and Foresight aren’t Concentration. If using slots on Eldritch Smites, then you don’t necessarily need to worry about Concentration spells.

If, on the other hand, you have specific Conc spells you like, then it’s a matter of how much risking losing Conc is worth it to you.

[Hael]

If you want to be a bladelock in melee, you basically don’t have many options. Hex works for the first few lvls, but is basically suboptimal after that. From like lvl 3 onward, its more or less darkness/devilsight (not recommended for beginners), and then shadow of moil at lvl 7.

If you don’t run these spells, its really not worth being a bladelock compared to most other martials.

They mitigate the glass cannon side of the class somewhat. You aren’t targetable by many spells/effects, your effective AC will be semi reasonable and you can disengage (so you dont get swarmed).

On the offensive side, that sort of thing synergizes with EA/GWM/SS.

Without most or all of these elements, the build is going to struggle somewhat. Dual wielding for instance is already a rather nasty dpr loss (taking away much of the value of the build).

[kaith282]

As a melee character you WILL be hit and you WILL need to make concentration saves since your spells will be an essential part of what you can do. You can't avoid this so you need to plan to deal with it.

The two options are the resilient con feat or taking level 1 in a class with con saves.

War caster isn't as good a choice as resilient con since by level 13 con save proficiency is better than advantage from War Caster and you can get advantage via the Eldritch Mind invocation anyway.

With a 14 con and proficiency you will have +7 on con saves at level 13, +8 with 16 con - even without advantage you fail most con saves only by rolling a 1 or a 2 (or just a 1). With advantage you fail about 1/100 (1/400 with 16 con) checks when hit for 20 damage or less on each attack. You won't be failing con saves very often. In addition, if you are being hit 3 times in a round for more than 20 damage on each attack - your character likely won't be around long enough for the concentration saves to actually matter.

----

This gives you a couple of options - however, you would probably need to play a variant human with slightly lower secondary stats to get all the feats you want by level 13.

I think you mentioned point buy with 29 points ..

Option 1: Variant human (pure 13 warlock) : 8 14 16 10 12 16 to start with resilient con (the +1s in con and cha)

ASI/Feat: GWM, Elven accuracy, Fey Touched/Telekinetic/Telepathy - gives 18 charisma and you would use your next feat to boost charisma to 20. Fey Touched is likely a good choice though Telekinetic or Telepathy might be fun too. If you aren't desperate for Elven Accuracy or your DM doesn't let you take it because you aren't an Elf then just take +2 cha for 20 cha.

Option 2: Variant human (first level sorcerer/ 12 warlock) : 9 14 14 10 13 16 to start with GWM

ASI/Feat: +2 cha, Elven Accuracy, Fey Touched (or other +1 cha feat). This gives you constitution saves for melee fighting with spells and 20 cha at level 13 with Elven Accuracy. You would take resilient wisdom at character level 17 (warlock 16) to improve wis saves for the end game.


Comments:

The first option has more hit points, slightly better con saves, both con and wis saves but will have 18 cha for three more levels before you bump it to 20 at level 16. It will have the level 7 arcanum already.

The second option has 20 charisma so all its attacks will have a greater chance to hit and do slightly more damage. In addition, it has 2 utility 1st level slots, 2 more spells known, 4 cantrips and a first level sorcerer feature like 120' darkvision for shadow sorcerer or even a cure wounds spell from divine soul. A cure wounds spell cast with a +5 stat out of one of your 5th level warlock slots can be a useful form of emergency healing but might not fit your character.

Either of these choices has trade offs/benefits - you just need to decide which is more important to you.

If you really want to stick with standard human then it will take even more levels to get all the feats/ASI you want to round out the character abilities and I personally think it would be less than ideal but that is your call :)

P.S. My personal choice would likely be option 1.

Both options are actually pretty ok with my character, while as you said, healing is not something he would do.
Honestly, I made a temporary spell list of what seems in character and useful/fun to play/fun to see. I tried to avoid concentration spells to avoid this problem.
The stats you proposed with option 1 sound reasonable, the only problem is I can't replicate them on a pointbuy calculator so I don't know...

[kaith282]

What spells are you thinking of running that rely on Concentration?

You can certainly invest to pass most checks, however, this degree of investment may not be needed. CoS and Foresight aren’t Concentration. If using slots on Eldritch Smites, then you don’t necessarily need to worry about Concentration spells.

If, on the other hand, you have specific Conc spells you like, then it’s a matter of how much risking losing Conc is worth it to you.

Basically none, I have Hex in my temporary spell list but I'm not really planning to use it, and it's probably the level 1 spell I'm going to remove. Seems pretty useless at my level.
These are the spells I chose, you guys can give me your opinion and I might adjust it:

Eldritch Blast, True Strike, Blade Ward
Expeditious retreat, Armor of Agathys, Hex
Darkness
Dispel Magic, Counterspell
Banishment, Sickening Radiance
Scrying, Danse Macabre (trying to find a way to reflavor it, as I said minions are not on the table. Ghostly swords might be an Idea tho)
Circle of Death (Some area damage, might be useful against armies of minions)
Crown of Stars

[kaith282]

If you want to be a bladelock in melee, you basically don’t have many options. Hex works for the first few lvls, but is basically suboptimal after that. From like lvl 3 onward, its more or less darkness/devilsight (not recommended for beginners), and then shadow of moil at lvl 7.

If you don’t run these spells, its really not worth being a bladelock compared to most other martials.

They mitigate the glass cannon side of the class somewhat. You aren’t targetable by many spells/effects, your effective AC will be semi reasonable and you can disengage (so you dont get swarmed).

On the offensive side, that sort of thing synergizes with EA/GWM/SS.

Without most or all of these elements, the build is going to struggle somewhat. Dual wielding for instance is already a rather nasty dpr loss (taking away much of the value of the build).

In another thread I made I stated that I was asking for ideas to change my sixth level ability because both me and my master think the one given by hexblade doesn't feet the character. He agreed giving me Searing Vengeance instead, that seems a not so bad idea to mitigate the risk of disappearing from existence. What do you think , does this partially solve the problem?

[Gignere]

Basically none, I have Hex in my temporary spell list but I'm not really planning to use it, and it's probably the level 1 spell I'm going to remove. Seems pretty useless at my level.
These are the spells I chose, you guys can give me your opinion and I might adjust it:

Eldritch Blast, True Strike, Blade Ward
Expeditious retreat, Armor of Agathys, Hex
Darkness
Dispel Magic, Counterspell
Banishment, Sickening Radiance
Scrying, Danse Macabre (trying to find a way to reflavor it, as I said minions are not on the table. Ghostly swords might be an Idea tho)
Circle of Death (Some area damage, might be useful against armies of minions)
Crown of Stars

I think you should make room for spirit shroud, that’s actually one of the few spells that will up your melee damage.

Get rid of true strike it is less than useless, if your DM oks you swappping your level 6 feature with the Bladesinger feature you should grab Booming Blade and/or Greenflame blade.

Circle of Death is awful as well, 8d6 con save for half. Con save is the strongest save by far for monsters. Anyway my suggestion is to consider replacing it with Investiture of Stone, Eyebite, Conjure Fey, or Arcane Gate.

I’d also suggest replace Danse Macabre with Synaptic Static, that’s a better AoE than circle of death, adds a very nice rider, and targets a weaker save.

You might want to find some way to fit in shield spell, yes you don’t have the slots to spam it but sometimes it can turn that crucial hit into a miss and it is worth the level 5 spell slot to do it.

[Keravath]

Both options are actually pretty ok with my character, while as you said, healing is not something he would do.
Honestly, I made a temporary spell list of what seems in character and useful/fun to play/fun to see. I tried to avoid concentration spells to avoid this problem.
The stats you proposed with option 1 sound reasonable, the only problem is I can't replicate them on a pointbuy calculator so I don't know...

You said the following in an earlier post:

"My stats are made starting from a point buy that's a bit more than average I guess: 29 points. Stats would be 9, 14, 16, 10, 14, 16."

Each of the stat lines is set up for 29 points and not the standard 27 which is why you can't reproduce them with most point buy calculators (eg D&D Beyond) because they default to 27.

Option 1 points: 8 14 14 10 12 15 = 0+7+7+2+4+9 = 29 ... +1 con for resilient con, +1 con from variant human, +1 charisma from variant human = 8 14 16 10 12 16

Option 2 points: 9 14 13 10 13 15 = 1+7+5+2+5+9 = 29 points ... +1 for con and +1 for cha from variant human = 9 14 14 10 13 16

If you actually only have the 27 point buy and not the 29 you mentioned earlier then in option 1 drop int or wis by 2 or in option 2 drop str and wis or str and int by 1. Keep wis 13 if you plan to take resilient wis.

----

P.S. As for spells requiring concentration ... big melee ones are:

Spirit Shroud - when cast with a 5th level slot it adds 2d8 damage to every attack you make. I'm not sure what else you would want to cast if you are looking to do a lot of damage.

Shadow of Moil - this is the defensive option - it gives you advantage to hit most targets (made better with elven accuracy) and disadvantage to be hit as well as inflicting damage on anyone who does hit you.

Hypnotic Pattern - can shut down entire encounters against the right enemies but choosing it depends on what else you have picked up

Banishment - great for potentially taking two opponents out of the fight - upcast at 5th level - two creatures can be targeted.

Sickening Radiance - effectively area control/denial spell - long duration and works really well if someone in your party can cast wall of force or forcecage - becomes almost an instant death sentence against any creature that can't teleport.


Utility ones:

Fly - very useful in many situations
Invisibility - cast with a 5th level slot it will hide most of the party


Borderline at 13th level:

Hex - extra d6 damage on every attack that lasts up to 24 hours - but uses your concentration. Useful if you plan to use most of your spell slots for eldritch smite but want to do a bit of extra damage the rest of the time.

----

As for non-concentration spells - the list is pretty limited - some direct damage and utility mostly.

Misty Step - kind of a waste using a 5th level slot for it but when you need it - it is essential - however, you would probably get misty step and likely hex from your Fey Touched feat.

Dimension Door - again teleport getaway or utility travel but costs an action instead

Remove Curse, Counterspell, Dispel Magic - utility but probably better on many other characters unless your party doesn't have a character capable of casting them.

Combat:

Synaptic Static - psychic fireball - useful spell since you only have 5th level slots anyway.

Charm Monster (?) - not that useful a spell - makes a target friendly towards you but not the rest of the party - target has advantage on saves in combat - perhaps situational use if negotiating with a monster out of combat but they know they were charmed when the spell ends - not great

Blight - 9d8 single target damage (average 40.5) - not that great since you'd likely do more damage taking the attack action with GWM and Spirit Shroud running. 2 x (2d6+4+10+2d8) = 60 though do have to hit first

Thunderstep - 5d10 damage within 10' but isn't team friendly - though you can teleport any distance you can see within 90' - doesn't work if vision is obstructed since damage happens after you disappear.

Honestly - except for Synaptic Static which I consider a must pick - most of the non-concentration spells aren't great.

----

Anyway, most of the spells that would help a melee warlock the most would appear to be concentration.

[Keravath]

Basically none, I have Hex in my temporary spell list but I'm not really planning to use it, and it's probably the level 1 spell I'm going to remove. Seems pretty useless at my level.
These are the spells I chose, you guys can give me your opinion and I might adjust it:

Eldritch Blast, True Strike, Blade Ward
Expeditious retreat, Armor of Agathys, Hex
Darkness
Dispel Magic, Counterspell
Banishment, Sickening Radiance
Scrying, Danse Macabre (trying to find a way to reflavor it, as I said minions are not on the table. Ghostly swords might be an Idea tho)
Circle of Death (Some area damage, might be useful against armies of minions)
Crown of Stars

Just some comments ..

Darkness, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Danse Macabre, Expeditious Retreat, Scrying are all concentration. Without con saves they will be less reliable on a melee warlock (though you won't likely use Scrying in melee). Darkness should be paired with the Devil's sight invocation but Darkness by itself is still really useful at shutting down opponent spells requiring gaze attacks (eg vampires etc

Dispel Magic and Counterspell are good utility spells but other classes will do them better - depends on the rest of the party. If you are the only character who can cast these they are likely good choices.

Armor of Agathys - personally, I've never been a fan - you do get 25 temp hit points and losing each will cause a point of cold damage to the creature hitting you - but if you get hit for 25 damage in an attack or two (not unlikely at 13 level) the effect is basically gone in a round and I don't think it is worth a 5th level slot - it also only lasts an hour so you can't stack it across short rests. Also, you lose temp hit points first - so cast this, get hit by a fireball, and the spell is gone without doing any cold damage.

Circle of death is a huge necrotic fireball - so pretty cool - though maybe not the most effective (con save) and is really only useful if you are fighting a horde of creatures not near the party. However, Mass Suggestion and Conjure Fey could be decent competition depending on circumstances - but you only get one.

Crown of Stars is 7 ranged spell attacks each doing 4d12 radiant as a bonus action to use (Action to cast). Pretty decent extra damage but it will conflict with other uses of your action if you don't get a chance to cast it before combat starts. Also, since you only get one 7th level spell - options like Planeshift or Forcecage are also very tempting - though Planeshift might be campaign dependent in terms of utility use.

P.S. As mentioned, True Strike is probably one of the worst cantrips around so don't take it. :)

P.P.S. I also agree with the comments above - include the shield spell.

[kaith282]

I think you should make room for spirit shroud, that’s actually one of the few spells that will up your melee damage.

Get rid of true strike it is less than useless, if your DM oks you swappping your level 6 feature with the Bladesinger feature you should grab Booming Blade and/or Greenflame blade.

Circle of Death is awful as well, 8d6 con save for half. Con save is the strongest save by far for monsters. Anyway my suggestion is to consider replacing it with Investiture of Stone, Eyebite, Conjure Fey, or Arcane Gate.

I’d also suggest replace Danse Macabre with Synaptic Static, that’s a better AoE than circle of death, adds a very nice rider, and targets a weaker save.

You might want to find some way to fit in shield spell, yes you don’t have the slots to spam it but sometimes it can turn that crucial hit into a miss and it is worth the level 5 spell slot to do it.

Death Circle was meant to deal with hoards of humans, which are the main race and my character's primary target so far, it just seemed more thematic. That said, I completely missed the Synaptic static's secondary effect, that is actually pretty strong, I'll go for it!

The spells you quoted are pretty good but don't seem in line with my idea of the character. Anyway, I should find a way to replace Death Circle since I'm going with Synaptic static...

Replacing the sixth level ability with that from the Wizard sounds really good, casting Eldritch blast after a melee attack seems good and fun to play. But the other option is Searing vengence, which would give me back half hp + little AoE Damage. What's better?

[kaith282]

Just some comments ..

Darkness, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Danse Macabre, Expeditious Retreat, Scrying are all concentration. Without con saves they will be less reliable on a melee warlock (though you won't likely use Scrying in melee). Darkness should be paired with the Devil's sight invocation but Darkness by itself is still really useful at shutting down opponent spells requiring gaze attacks (eg vampires etc

Dispel Magic and Counterspell are good utility spells but other classes will do them better - depends on the rest of the party. If you are the only character who can cast these they are likely good choices.

Armor of Agathys - personally, I've never been a fan - you do get 25 temp hit points and losing each will cause a point of cold damage to the creature hitting you - but if you get hit for 25 damage in an attack or two (not unlikely at 13 level) the effect is basically gone in a round and I don't think it is worth a 5th level slot - it also only lasts an hour so you can't stack it across short rests. Also, you lose temp hit points first - so cast this, get hit by a fireball, and the spell is gone without doing any cold damage.

Circle of death is a huge necrotic fireball - so pretty cool - though maybe not the most effective (con save) and is really only useful if you are fighting a horde of creatures not near the party. However, Mass Suggestion and Conjure Fey could be decent competition depending on circumstances - but you only get one.

Crown of Stars is 7 ranged spell attacks each doing 4d12 radiant as a bonus action to use (Action to cast). Pretty decent extra damage but it will conflict with other uses of your action if you don't get a chance to cast it before combat starts. Also, since you only get one 7th level spell - options like Planeshift or Forcecage are also very tempting - though Planeshift might be campaign dependent in terms of utility use.

P.S. As mentioned, True Strike is probably one of the worst cantrips around so don't take it. :)

P.P.S. I also agree with the comments above - include the shield spell.

Really useful comments!
Yes, I am the only caster and magic is pretty rare in this campaign, but when it comes it hits hard. So I would keep them just in case the occasion to save my party's ass pops up.

Circle of Death and Darkness were actually meant to deal with hoards of humans, since we'll likely go at war at some point, and my character's main goal is to kill rulers of the nation. I might easily find myself fighting against 10/15 weak characters together, sometimes alone ( we also do one to one sessions with characters side stories), so even though I'm not still sure about getting concentration saves before the next ASI, it seemed a pretty good choice overall (Yes, I took devil's sight).

Crown of Stars will definetly be cast before battle!

I will include de shield spell as a last-second-ass-saver as suggested, removing the much less interesting Hex.

I might have misunderstood Armor of Agathys effect, honestly.

A protective magical force surrounds you, manifesting as a spectral frost that covers you and your gear. You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, both the temporary hit points and the cold damage increase by 5 for each slot.

RAW, I would say the enemy takes full damage as long as I stil have at least one of those temporary hit points. Am I wrong? If I am, I might change it even though it still mitigates pretty well the problem of being a glass cannon, together with Searing Vengeance.

[Segev]

This is a big "if," but if you're not using your concentration on anything else (e.g. maintaining hex), you can do a pretty nice amount of dual wielding damage by using a shadow blade as your off-hand weapon. It is simple, light, and finesse, and it does (when cast from the 5th level slot that a 13th level warlock is going to be using) 4d8+(str or dex mod) psychic damage per hit. Heck, if you can talk your DM into it (this is cheesy and questionably rules-legal - I say "questionably" because it's not impossible that it IS rules-legal, not because it's illegal but you might be able to talk him into it anyway), you might be able to bond a shadow blade as your pact weapon, and then you could call it up at will regardless of concentration. And still summon another one for your off hand, maybe, even, though concentration-free shadow blade even without dual wielding it would be pretty darned amazing, especially with Thirsting Blade.

While the thrown weapon property of a shadow blade is also really good - 4d8+statmod at 20/60 range isn't awful - it's only 1/turn and burns a bonus action to resummon it, so I think you still really want at LEAST Agonizing Blast, as well, in order to make your eldritch blast do 3d10+(3x charisma) damage.


Now, if multiclassing is on the table and you really want to focus on melee, a level or two of Paladin would be amazing for your build. Hexadins have the amazing power of turning their pact magic spell slots into smite damage for huge burst damage at the right time. Hexblade's Curse increases your chances of a critical hit, and I believe you declare smite AFTER seeing the die result. So if you crit, you declare a smite and deal double the spell level (so 10, in your case) dice of damage on top of the weapon's damage!

[kaith282]

You said the following in an earlier post:

"My stats are made starting from a point buy that's a bit more than average I guess: 29 points. Stats would be 9, 14, 16, 10, 14, 16."

Each of the stat lines is set up for 29 points and not the standard 27 which is why you can't reproduce them with most point buy calculators (eg D&D Beyond) because they default to 27.

Option 1 points: 8 14 14 10 12 15 = 0+7+7+2+4+9 = 29 ... +1 con for resilient con, +1 con from variant human, +1 charisma from variant human = 8 14 16 10 12 16

Option 2 points: 9 14 13 10 13 15 = 1+7+5+2+5+9 = 29 points ... +1 for con and +1 for cha from variant human = 9 14 14 10 13 16

If you actually only have the 27 point buy and not the 29 you mentioned earlier then in option 1 drop int or wis by 2 or in option 2 drop str and wis or str and int by 1. Keep wis 13 if you plan to take resilient wis.

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P.S. As for spells requiring concentration ... big melee ones are:

Spirit Shroud - when cast with a 5th level slot it adds 2d8 damage to every attack you make. I'm not sure what else you would want to cast if you are looking to do a lot of damage.

Shadow of Moil - this is the defensive option - it gives you advantage to hit most targets (made better with elven accuracy) and disadvantage to be hit as well as inflicting damage on anyone who does hit you.

Hypnotic Pattern - can shut down entire encounters against the right enemies but choosing it depends on what else you have picked up

Banishment - great for potentially taking two opponents out of the fight - upcast at 5th level - two creatures can be targeted.

Sickening Radiance - effectively area control/denial spell - long duration and works really well if someone in your party can cast wall of force or forcecage - becomes almost an instant death sentence against any creature that can't teleport.


Utility ones:

Fly - very useful in many situations
Invisibility - cast with a 5th level slot it will hide most of the party


Borderline at 13th level:

Hex - extra d6 damage on every attack that lasts up to 24 hours - but uses your concentration. Useful if you plan to use most of your spell slots for eldritch smite but want to do a bit of extra damage the rest of the time.

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As for non-concentration spells - the list is pretty limited - some direct damage and utility mostly.

Misty Step - kind of a waste using a 5th level slot for it but when you need it - it is essential - however, you would probably get misty step and likely hex from your Fey Touched feat.

Dimension Door - again teleport getaway or utility travel but costs an action instead

Remove Curse, Counterspell, Dispel Magic - utility but probably better on many other characters unless your party doesn't have a character capable of casting them.

Combat:

Synaptic Static - psychic fireball - useful spell since you only have 5th level slots anyway.

Charm Monster (?) - not that useful a spell - makes a target friendly towards you but not the rest of the party - target has advantage on saves in combat - perhaps situational use if negotiating with a monster out of combat but they know they were charmed when the spell ends - not great

Blight - 9d8 single target damage (average 40.5) - not that great since you'd likely do more damage taking the attack action with GWM and Spirit Shroud running. 2 x (2d6+4+10+2d8) = 60 though do have to hit first

Thunderstep - 5d10 damage within 10' but isn't team friendly - though you can teleport any distance you can see within 90' - doesn't work if vision is obstructed since damage happens after you disappear.

Honestly - except for Synaptic Static which I consider a must pick - most of the non-concentration spells aren't great.

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Anyway, most of the spells that would help a melee warlock the most would appear to be concentration.

No the Pointbuy calculator actually allows me to chose how many points I want to use, I think I just didn't get the actual starting scores. Anyway, I really have difficulty understanding why concentration spells are all so important for the build. I have very few slots, and since the idea is to maximize crit chances ande use my slots to use eldritch smite I'm having a hard time getting the point.. I see other spells are more as situational/fun/ for flavor. Is my strategy wrong? I see that spirit shroud gives a strong 2d8 per turn, but I also think flanking+elven accuracy is a strong alternative with eldritch smite since I'm very likely to have at least one or two crits for fight. Obviously I'm not saying my strategy is better, I'm just asking what's wrong with it since I seem to miss the point of this need for concentration spells.

[Keravath]

No the Pointbuy calculator actually allows me to chose how many points I want to use, I think I just didn't get the actual starting scores. Anyway, I really have difficulty understanding why concentration spells are all so important for the build. I have very few slots, and since the idea is to maximize crit chances ande use my slots to use eldritch smite I'm having a hard time getting the point.. I see other spells are more as situational/fun/ for flavor. Is my strategy wrong? I see that spirit shroud gives a strong 2d8 per turn, but I also think flanking+elven accuracy is a strong alternative with eldritch smite since I'm very likely to have at least one or two crits for fight. Obviously I'm not saying my strategy is better, I'm just asking what's wrong with it since I seem to miss the point of this need for concentration spells.

1) I think you are right about Armor of Agathys after re-reading it - it should do 25 hit points of damage every time when you are hit as long as you still have those temp hit points. This makes it very effective when you are hit by a number of small attacks and does little or nothing when the temp hit points are depleted by ranged or spell attacks. If you are fighting intelligent opponents, they might decide to use ranged attacks until the spell effect is gone - but that is campaign and DM dependent.

2) Spirit Shroud is 2d8 on every hit not per turn. So both attacks with the weapon from the Attack action as well as the bonus attack (if using GWM) and achieve a crit or kill - so it is up to 6d8 extra on every turn. Also if you plan to use the spell slots primarily for Eldritch Smite then you might want to consider casting a 24 hour hex spell at the start of the day if you aren't going to use concentration for anything else.

3) Con save proficiency isn't just for concentration at higher levels. Many spells with negative effects are either constitution or wisdom saves - so if possible it is good to have proficiency in both in tier 3 to tier 4. Sickening Radiance, Cloud kill, Cone of Cold, Circle of Death, Destructive Wave, Harm, Finger of Death, Sunbeam, Prismatic Wall and others ... quite a few spells where proficiency in con saves comes in handy (this is aside from concentration).

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Using spell slots for Eldritch Smite on crits is fun :) .. and isn't a bad strategy.

Each slot generates 12d8 damage on a crit. Spirit shroud would take 2-3 rounds of combat to get that much damage assuming most attacks hit - but it would keep going if your combats are longer than 3 rounds and does not require a crit to work. Keep in mind also that 12d8 works really well if you get a crit against a creature with a lot of hit points remaining (e.g. first round of combat) ... less useful if you are fighting half a dozen humans with 60 hit points each. 12d8 averages 54 damage plus your weapon damage - so maybe about 85. It kind of goes to waste when you hit a damaged creature with 20 hit points left - but you can't predict when you will roll a crit.

One of the other reasons to try to get crits and kills is to get the extra bonus action attack from GWM. (when you get the bonus action weapon attack you can skip using the Crown of Stars ability that turn so there is decent synergy).

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Spell slots are a resource you spend to accomplish your goals. They either perform a specific task, or you can use them to enhance what you are good at.

You only have 3 slots/short rest - depending on how the DM runs your game that may be lots or not enough. If the DM runs 3 combats between short rests then you could use them all in the first fight by smiting. On the other hand, with 3 slots for each fight, if short rests are frequent then you have more flexibility. However, how often will you want to use your spell slots to cast something like Synaptic Static, or Counterspell or Dispel Magic? If you have used all your slots smiting then you won't have a slot left for Counterspell if an opponent casts something nasty.

Spell slot use is a matter of trade offs that a warlock faces more than other classes. If you are the only magic user in your party then you may find that you rarely use a spell slot to smite (eg only on a crit against a very tough opponent with a lot of hit points remaining) because you need to retain some spell slots for party defences.

In cases like that, you might find yourself wanting to cast a concentration spell at the start of a fight that helps your side out (eg Banishment on a couple of tough enemies to lock them down for a minute - or if they are from a another plane - send them away for good if you maintain concentration for a minute) or enhances your ability for the entire fight (eg spirit shroud) and save the other slots for emergencies rather than using all the slots on smites. In this spell slot use scenario, proficiency in con saves for concentration checks is very useful - but that may not be the way you want to play it :)

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One last thought :) ... it is your decision what you want to play and how you want to play it, so choose whatever makes you feel the best about it and I hope you have a great time. It sounds like a cool campaign.

[Gignere]

1)great points

I agree with much of what Keravath has posted just wanted to add that Spirit Shroud damage is also multiplied on a crit, so it combos really well with Elven accuracy and easy advantage from flanking.

[kaith282]

As a melee character you WILL be hit and you WILL need to make concentration saves since your spells will be an essential part of what you can do. You can't avoid this so you need to plan to deal with it.

The two options are the resilient con feat or taking level 1 in a class with con saves.

War caster isn't as good a choice as resilient con since by level 13 con save proficiency is better than advantage from War Caster and you can get advantage via the Eldritch Mind invocation anyway.

With a 14 con and proficiency you will have +7 on con saves at level 13, +8 with 16 con - even without advantage you fail most con saves only by rolling a 1 or a 2 (or just a 1). With advantage you fail about 1/100 (1/400 with 16 con) checks when hit for 20 damage or less on each attack. You won't be failing con saves very often. In addition, if you are being hit 3 times in a round for more than 20 damage on each attack - your character likely won't be around long enough for the concentration saves to actually matter.

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This gives you a couple of options - however, you would probably need to play a variant human with slightly lower secondary stats to get all the feats you want by level 13.

I think you mentioned point buy with 29 points ..

Option 1: Variant human (pure 13 warlock) : 8 14 16 10 12 16 to start with resilient con (the +1s in con and cha)

ASI/Feat: GWM, Elven accuracy, Fey Touched/Telekinetic/Telepathy - gives 18 charisma and you would use your next feat to boost charisma to 20. Fey Touched is likely a good choice though Telekinetic or Telepathy might be fun too. If you aren't desperate for Elven Accuracy or your DM doesn't let you take it because you aren't an Elf then just take +2 cha for 20 cha.

Option 2: Variant human (first level sorcerer/ 12 warlock) : 9 14 14 10 13 16 to start with GWM

ASI/Feat: +2 cha, Elven Accuracy, Fey Touched (or other +1 cha feat). This gives you constitution saves for melee fighting with spells and 20 cha at level 13 with Elven Accuracy. You would take resilient wisdom at character level 17 (warlock 16) to improve wis saves for the end game.


Comments:

The first option has more hit points, slightly better con saves, both con and wis saves but will have 18 cha for three more levels before you bump it to 20 at level 16. It will have the level 7 arcanum already.

The second option has 20 charisma so all its attacks will have a greater chance to hit and do slightly more damage. In addition, it has 2 utility 1st level slots, 2 more spells known, 4 cantrips and a first level sorcerer feature like 120' darkvision for shadow sorcerer or even a cure wounds spell from divine soul. A cure wounds spell cast with a +5 stat out of one of your 5th level warlock slots can be a useful form of emergency healing but might not fit your character.

Either of these choices has trade offs/benefits - you just need to decide which is more important to you.

If you really want to stick with standard human then it will take even more levels to get all the feats/ASI you want to round out the character abilities and I personally think it would be less than ideal but that is your call :)

P.S. My personal choice would likely be option 1.


I think option one is the most useful one. I thought about concentration spells and doing the math I understood they are something not too hard to handle. With my master we agreed that since I have +8 in Con saves, so a 1/400 chance of failing, the chances are small enough to be considered not relevant (I took eldritch mind for the advantage, of course. So I won't make a check for damage that is less than 20, as we though throwing dices for every single attack for such a remote possibility is pretty useless.

[kaith282]

1) I think you are right about Armor of Agathys after re-reading it - it should do 25 hit points of damage every time when you are hit as long as you still have those temp hit points. This makes it very effective when you are hit by a number of small attacks and does little or nothing when the temp hit points are depleted by ranged or spell attacks. If you are fighting intelligent opponents, they might decide to use ranged attacks until the spell effect is gone - but that is campaign and DM dependent.

2) Spirit Shroud is 2d8 on every hit not per turn. So both attacks with the weapon from the Attack action as well as the bonus attack (if using GWM) and achieve a crit or kill - so it is up to 6d8 extra on every turn. Also if you plan to use the spell slots primarily for Eldritch Smite then you might want to consider casting a 24 hour hex spell at the start of the day if you aren't going to use concentration for anything else.

3) Con save proficiency isn't just for concentration at higher levels. Many spells with negative effects are either constitution or wisdom saves - so if possible it is good to have proficiency in both in tier 3 to tier 4. Sickening Radiance, Cloud kill, Cone of Cold, Circle of Death, Destructive Wave, Harm, Finger of Death, Sunbeam, Prismatic Wall and others ... quite a few spells where proficiency in con saves comes in handy (this is aside from concentration).

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Using spell slots for Eldritch Smite on crits is fun :) .. and isn't a bad strategy.

Each slot generates 12d8 damage on a crit. Spirit shroud would take 2-3 rounds of combat to get that much damage assuming most attacks hit - but it would keep going if your combats are longer than 3 rounds and does not require a crit to work. Keep in mind also that 12d8 works really well if you get a crit against a creature with a lot of hit points remaining (e.g. first round of combat) ... less useful if you are fighting half a dozen humans with 60 hit points each. 12d8 averages 54 damage plus your weapon damage - so maybe about 85. It kind of goes to waste when you hit a damaged creature with 20 hit points left - but you can't predict when you will roll a crit.

One of the other reasons to try to get crits and kills is to get the extra bonus action attack from GWM. (when you get the bonus action weapon attack you can skip using the Crown of Stars ability that turn so there is decent synergy).

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Spell slots are a resource you spend to accomplish your goals. They either perform a specific task, or you can use them to enhance what you are good at.

You only have 3 slots/short rest - depending on how the DM runs your game that may be lots or not enough. If the DM runs 3 combats between short rests then you could use them all in the first fight by smiting. On the other hand, with 3 slots for each fight, if short rests are frequent then you have more flexibility. However, how often will you want to use your spell slots to cast something like Synaptic Static, or Counterspell or Dispel Magic? If you have used all your slots smiting then you won't have a slot left for Counterspell if an opponent casts something nasty.

Spell slot use is a matter of trade offs that a warlock faces more than other classes. If you are the only magic user in your party then you may find that you rarely use a spell slot to smite (eg only on a crit against a very tough opponent with a lot of hit points remaining) because you need to retain some spell slots for party defences.

In cases like that, you might find yourself wanting to cast a concentration spell at the start of a fight that helps your side out (eg Banishment on a couple of tough enemies to lock them down for a minute - or if they are from a another plane - send them away for good if you maintain concentration for a minute) or enhances your ability for the entire fight (eg spirit shroud) and save the other slots for emergencies rather than using all the slots on smites. In this spell slot use scenario, proficiency in con saves for concentration checks is very useful - but that may not be the way you want to play it :)

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One last thought :) ... it is your decision what you want to play and how you want to play it, so choose whatever makes you feel the best about it and I hope you have a great time. It sounds like a cool campaign.


So I'm almost done with the character sheet and that's what came out:
Stats: 8, 14, 16, 10, 12, 18

Elven Accuracy and Resilient (CON)
Pact of Blade
Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker, Eldritch Mind, Thirsting Blade

level 6 Ability became Searing Vengeance

107 HP + 25 from Armor of Agathys + 53 from Searing Vengeance if I reach 0 = 185

Weapon is a Greatsword +1
I rely a lot on flanking for advantage and elven accuracy, so that I can use GWM not fearing the chance of missing the target

I made some math, please correct me if I'm wrong:

my average damage just using my weapon is (2d6 + 4 CHA + 4 Necrotic +1 +10 GWM) x2 = 52
Using spirit Shroud and Crown of Stars I might add 4d8 + 4d12 for a total of 18 + 26 = 44 on average, for a total of 92.
if I have Hexblade's Curse active, my attacks get another +5 for a total of 106.
activating a crit, which is very likely while Hexblade's curse is active ( 19-20 on 6 rolls would be a a 60% chance per turn if I'm doing the math right)
will deal an additional 26+9+5(40)
Finally, when I crit I would not use my bonus action for CoS, but I would instead activate Eldritch smite for a Smashing 12d8 (54)


So, that would make it a 52+18+10+40+54 = 174 Average using all my resources in the right turn.

Is that correct?

[Keravath]

So I'm almost done with the character sheet and that's what came out:
Stats: 8, 14, 16, 10, 12, 18

Elven Accuracy and Resilient (CON)
Pact of Blade
Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker, Eldritch Mind, Thirsting Blade

level 6 Ability became Searing Vengeance

107 HP + 25 from Armor of Agathys + 53 from Searing Vengeance if I reach 0 = 185

Weapon is a Greatsword +1
I rely a lot on flanking for advantage and elven accuracy, so that I can use GWM not fearing the chance of missing the target

I made some math, please correct me if I'm wrong:

my average damage just using my weapon is (2d6 + 4 CHA + 4 Necrotic +1 +10 GWM) x2 = 52
Using spirit Shroud and Crown of Stars I might add 4d8 + 4d12 for a total of 18 + 26 = 44 on average, for a total of 92.
if I have Hexblade's Curse active, my attacks get another +5 for a total of 106.
activating a crit, which is very likely while Hexblade's curse is active ( 19-20 on 6 rolls would be a a 60% chance per turn if I'm doing the math right)
will deal an additional 26+9+5(40)
Finally, when I crit I would not use my bonus action for CoS, but I would instead activate Eldritch smite for a Smashing 12d8 (54)


So, that would make it a 52+18+10+40+54 = 174 Average using all my resources in the right turn.

Is that correct?

Seems to be mostly correct. However, the hexblade's curse applies to every attack so it includes the bonus action attacks either with the weapon from GWM or from Crown of Stars.

If you get a bonus action attack with GWM the damage is 2d6+4+4+1+10 = 26 + an extra 2d8 = 35 total if Spirit shroud is running. However, spirit shroud also applies to the attack from crown of stars as long as you are within 10' of the target.

So your average damage could be a bit higher though both Hexblade's curse and Spirit shroud take a bonus action so if you want both running you will either need to start them before the fight or use the first two rounds of bonus actions to get it going.

The one issue with Crown of Stars is that it is a RANGED spell attack. Using this with an opponent within 5', no matter who you target, means it will be rolled with disadvantage. If you have advantage from flanking this will make it a straight attack roll so it is still decent but won't benefit from Elven Accuracy.

In any case, your typical damage would be something like

52 (2 great sword attacks) + 18 (spirit shroud) = 70 baseline with 2 attacks

The bonus action is another 26 (either crown of stars or another great sword attack due to crit or kill from GWM) + 9 (spirit shroud) = 35 (Crown of stars is either straight roll or disadvantage when within 5' of a target depending on whether you also have advantage due to flanking or another effect)

Hexblade's curse could add an extra +5 to each attack for 15 total

The chance of a crit with a crit range of 19-20 with elven accuracy is 27.1% on each attack with advantage (10% without advantage). The chance of getting at least one crit if you have three attacks with elven accuracy is 61.3%. So a crit isn't unlikely.

Assuming this is a great sword attack this would do an extra +7 damage, with another +9 if spirit shroud is running (spirit shroud as a bonus action should probably be the first bonus action of most fights). = +16

Finally if you do get a crit, using a level 5 spell slot for Eldritch smite is +12d8 damage on a crit = 54

Total average damage from 2 attacks with spirit shroud = 70 (round 1 casting spirit shroud)
Total average damage from 3 attacks with spirit shroud = 105 (round 2 with just spirit shroud)

Total average damage from 2 attacks with spirit shroud + hexblades curse = 80 (round 2 using bonus action for hexblade's curse)
Total average damage from 3 attacks with spirit shroud + hexblades curse = 120 (round 3 assuming both spirit shroud and curse are running)

Bonus damage on a crit from Eldritch Smite + extra weapon damage = 54 + 16 = 70

So you could reach something like 190 average damage on a round when you score a crit starting on the third round of combat with both spirit shroud and hexblade's curse running. Without hexblade's curse the damage from three attacks and a crit would average 175 but the chance of a crit drops to 14.3% for each attack or about 37% over 3 attacks.

These numbers rely pretty heavily on having advantage and Elven Accuracy to increase the to hit chances so that you don't miss much when using GWM.

[kaith282]

Seems to be mostly correct. However, the hexblade's curse applies to every attack so it includes the bonus action attacks either with the weapon from GWM or from Crown of Stars.

If you get a bonus action attack with GWM the damage is 2d6+4+4+1+10 = 26 + an extra 2d8 = 35 total if Spirit shroud is running. However, spirit shroud also applies to the attack from crown of stars as long as you are within 10' of the target.

So your average damage could be a bit higher though both Hexblade's curse and Spirit shroud take a bonus action so if you want both running you will either need to start them before the fight or use the first two rounds of bonus actions to get it going.

The one issue with Crown of Stars is that it is a RANGED spell attack. Using this with an opponent within 5', no matter who you target, means it will be rolled with disadvantage. If you have advantage from flanking this will make it a straight attack roll so it is still decent but won't benefit from Elven Accuracy.

In any case, your typical damage would be something like

52 (2 great sword attacks) + 18 (spirit shroud) = 70 baseline with 2 attacks

The bonus action is another 26 (either crown of stars or another great sword attack due to crit or kill from GWM) + 9 (spirit shroud) = 35 (Crown of stars is either straight roll or disadvantage when within 5' of a target depending on whether you also have advantage due to flanking or another effect)

Hexblade's curse could add an extra +5 to each attack for 15 total

The chance of a crit with a crit range of 19-20 with elven accuracy is 27.1% on each attack with advantage (10% without advantage). The chance of getting at least one crit if you have three attacks with elven accuracy is 61.3%. So a crit isn't unlikely.

Assuming this is a great sword attack this would do an extra +7 damage, with another +9 if spirit shroud is running (spirit shroud as a bonus action should probably be the first bonus action of most fights). = +16

Finally if you do get a crit, using a level 5 spell slot for Eldritch smite is +12d8 damage on a crit = 54

Total average damage from 2 attacks with spirit shroud = 70 (round 1 casting spirit shroud)
Total average damage from 3 attacks with spirit shroud = 105 (round 2 with just spirit shroud)

Total average damage from 2 attacks with spirit shroud + hexblades curse = 80 (round 2 using bonus action for hexblade's curse)
Total average damage from 3 attacks with spirit shroud + hexblades curse = 120 (round 3 assuming both spirit shroud and curse are running)

Bonus damage on a crit from Eldritch Smite + extra weapon damage = 54 + 16 = 70

So you could reach something like 190 average damage on a round when you score a crit starting on the third round of combat with both spirit shroud and hexblade's curse running. Without hexblade's curse the damage from three attacks and a crit would average 175 but the chance of a crit drops to 14.3% for each attack or about 37% over 3 attacks.

These numbers rely pretty heavily on having advantage and Elven Accuracy to increase the to hit chances so that you don't miss much when using GWM.

But still, the third attack with advantage would only extist in case I get rid of the disadvantage on CoS, am I wrong? since the third attack from GWM is dependent from a previous crit, I can only count it for the chances of getting a second crit in the same attack. To solve this problem I thought I could get later a 2 levels dip into fighter, fighting style tunnel fighter. I would also increase my nova potential of around 70 damages at that level, given that I would use the ASI at lv 16 to get CHA to a +5.

[Gignere]

But still, the third attack with advantage would only extist in case I get rid of the disadvantage on CoS, am I wrong? since the third attack from GWM is dependent from a previous crit, I can only count it for the chances of getting a second crit in the same attack. To solve this problem I thought I could get later a 2 levels dip into fighter, fighting style tunnel fighter. I would also increase my nova potential of around 70 damages at that level, given that I would use the ASI at lv 16 to get CHA to a +5.

The only way to get rid of the disadvantage from making a range attack in melee range is to get either the crossbow expert feat or gunner feat. Otherwise there is noway to do it and still get benefit from Elven accuracy. Even if you cancel out the disadvantage via foresight or flanking or whatever, because multiple instances of advantage doesn’t stack all you going to have is a normal roll.

Also GWM doesn’t just give a bonus attack on crits it also gives one when you kill creatures so it can actually happen on quite a lot of turns and actually make CoS less useful.

[Frogreaver]

The only way to get rid of the disadvantage from making a range attack in melee range is to get either the crossbow expert feat or gunner feat. Otherwise there is noway to do it and still get benefit from Elven accuracy. Even if you cancel out the disadvantage via foresight or flanking or whatever, because multiple instances of advantage doesn’t stack all you going to have is a normal roll.

Also GWM doesn’t just give a bonus attack on crits it also gives one when you kill creatures so it can actually happen on quite a lot of turns and actually make CoS less useful.

Yep. I agree that I wouldn't be relying on CoS in a melee fight. It does ink out a little more damage but it's an expensive resource for that little benefit. Instead use it + EB when you can't or don't want to be in melee.

[kaith282]

The only way to get rid of the disadvantage from making a range attack in melee range is to get either the crossbow expert feat or gunner feat. Otherwise there is noway to do it and still get benefit from Elven accuracy. Even if you cancel out the disadvantage via foresight or flanking or whatever, because multiple instances of advantage doesn’t stack all you going to have is a normal roll.

Also GWM doesn’t just give a bonus attack on crits it also gives one when you kill creatures so it can actually happen on quite a lot of turns and actually make CoS less useful.

idek why I said tunnel fighter, I meant close quarters shooter. wouldn't I get rid of the disadvantage and get to throw the dice three times with CoS too?

[Keravath]

idek why I said tunnel fighter, I meant close quarters shooter. wouldn't I get rid of the disadvantage and get to throw the dice three times with CoS too?

If your DM is allowing the close quarters shooter fighting style from UA then that would get rid of the disadvantage issue - allowing elven accuracy to be used if you have advantage.

It also gives you a +1 to hit and lets you ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover for attacks within 30' and it would work with Eldritch Blast too.

So one level of fighter for this fighting style might make sense if your DM allows it (since I think you have better options for the two feats/ASIs you have left).

[kaith282]

If your DM is allowing the close quarters shooter fighting style from UA then that would get rid of the disadvantage issue - allowing elven accuracy to be used if you have advantage.

It also gives you a +1 to hit and lets you ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover for attacks within 30' and it would work with Eldritch Blast too.

So one level of fighter for this fighting style might make sense if your DM allows it (since I think you have better options for the two feats/ASIs you have left).

I'd like two levels for even more nova potential with Action surge, but what would you suggest?

[meandean]

Go Paladin 5 so you can have a horse that also has a Crown of Stars.

(Am I serious? I dunno, probably not. I just always thought that was a really funny interaction. But it's certainly not like Pallocks are bad...)

[Keravath]

I'd like two levels for even more nova potential with Action surge, but what would you suggest?

Play what you think is fun. :) .. at this point, I'd just play your 13 warlock and see how well it works in play, how often the GWM riders trigger, whether Crown of Stars in melee works ok or really seems to need the fighting style.

As for a fighter levels ...
- They delay warlock features
- 2 levels of fighter loses out on the level 19 ASI which means that the +2 charisma for the ASI at 16 would be your last ASI/feat. That feat choice at 19 might be useful.
- the fighter level close quarters fighting style would help with both eldritch blast at melee range and Crown of Stars but with your build the only real application is for Crown of Stars - so I'd suggest playing the character and seeing how much of an issue it is. You could also pick up the fighting style via a feat at level 19 if you decided to just stick with warlock.

[kaith282]

Play what you think is fun. :) .. at this point, I'd just play your 13 warlock and see how well it works in play, how often the GWM riders trigger, whether Crown of Stars in melee works ok or really seems to need the fighting style.

As for a fighter levels ...
- They delay warlock features
- 2 levels of fighter loses out on the level 19 ASI which means that the +2 charisma for the ASI at 16 would be your last ASI/feat. That feat choice at 19 might be useful.
- the fighter level close quarters fighting style would help with both eldritch blast at melee range and Crown of Stars but with your build the only real application is for Crown of Stars - so I'd suggest playing the character and seeing how much of an issue it is. You could also pick up the fighting style via a feat at level 19 if you decided to just stick with warlock.

Yeah since the build is pretty done, I will just play it and see how it goes. Yeah the only application for the FS is with CoS, since I would use EB+ Repel Blast to keep enemies I don't want too close at distance (or throw them down a canyon). Also, 4d10+20+ 4d12 CoS, isn't too bad considering I will also have Foresight aka constant advantage for EA. I think I pretty much reached the goal and got the build I needed, Thank you everyone, you were all really kind and helpful!:smalltongue:

[kaith282]

Go Paladin 5 so you can have a horse that also has a Crown of Stars.

(Am I serious? I dunno, probably not. I just always thought that was a really funny interaction. But it's certainly not like Pallocks are bad...)

I will definetly try that in a future campaign, it sounds really fun haha