grapple and submerge ?

[da newt]

So I'm running a game that is written with awakened trees that are described as grabbing PCs and bring them underwater (into a 10' deep pond), but no rules are provided to support this. The trees have a slam attack, but no grapple rider. This is for mid tier 2 PCs.

What would you recommend?

I'm leaning toward adding an auto grapple rider on a slam hit, and then underwater combat rules for folks in the pool with a DC 12 CON save at end of every submerged turn vs choking ...

[Psyren]

So I'm running a game that is written with awakened trees that are described as grabbing PCs and bring them underwater (into a 10' deep pond), but no rules are provided to support this. The trees have a slam attack, but no grapple rider. This is for mid tier 2 PCs.

What would you recommend?

Grapple is a universal combat action, meaning any creature with appropriate appendages can attempt it even if it's not in their statblock. The same is true of other combat actions like Dodge and Help.

However, if your plan is to add a free grapple attempt to the treants' slam attack(s), see below.


I'm leaning toward adding an auto grapple rider on a slam hit, and then underwater combat rules for folks in the pool with a DC 12 CON save at end of every submerged turn vs choking ...

Keep in mind that most creatures can hold their breath for 1+Con mod minutes before they start drowning (PHB 183). You can skip that and make them roll every round if you want to, but your players might consider that unfair. Whether or not they're okay with this, it will almost certainly make the encounter much more deadly and raise its CR - remember that suffocating in 5e means they are immediately put into dying status regardless of their HP, making this ability a DC 12 save or die.

Note also that by adding a free grapple to their hits you're essentially giving them a second attack, which should also be factored into their CR.

I would try and use the monster creation rules to estimate what effect a second attack and a DC 12 ability that does damage = the toughest party member's HP total might do to the monster's offensive CR, and recalculate accordingly. You may find that these two additions make your encounter's CR much too high for your group and necessitate further tweaks. I'd consider failing the Con save each round to not immediately lead to choking but rather to some HP loss or losing a minute of air.

[nickl_2000]

If you wanted to ratchet up the tension instead of making them start drowning immediately you could have a special attack like

Gut Punch: X damage, the PC must make a save vs X DC. On failure the PC expels some oxygen from their lungs, reducing the time they can hold their breath by 1 minute. Can only be done to a grappled creature.

[Catullus64]

So I'm running a game that is written with awakened trees that are described as grabbing PCs and bring them underwater (into a 10' deep pond), but no rules are provided to support this. The trees have a slam attack, but no grapple rider. This is for mid tier 2 PCs.

What would you recommend?

I'm leaning toward adding an auto grapple rider on a slam hit, and then underwater combat rules for folks in the pool with a DC 12 CON save at end of every submerged turn vs choking ...

I think that just having them grapple like any other creature, with opposed Strength (Athletics) check vs. Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics), is fine here. If the creatures have a multiattack, let them substitute one grapple attempt for each attack, in the same way that player characters with the Extra Attack feature can do. (Not RAW, but fairly sensible).

For the actual drowning approach, I like to use a synthesis of home rules and the extant ones. Note the number of rounds that the grappled PC can hold their breath under normal circumstances. Being throttled underwater by a tree isn't normal circumstances, however. On its turn, the grappling creature can use its action to continue trying to drown the grappled creature. If it does so, the grappled creature needs to make a Constitution saving throw, DC 8 + grappler's strength modifier + grappler's proficiency bonus. (Creature statblocks don't technically have a proficiency bonus, but they have a de facto one that you can riddle out from their skill or attack bonuses.) On a success, the grappled creature loses only one round of breath as normal. On a failure, they subtract a fixed number of rounds from the amount of time they can stay conscious while underwater. This number should vary with how deadly you want things to be; when I've done this in the past, I found 30 seconds to be just enough for there to be real tension without being too unfair.

[Keltest]

Keep in mind that most creatures can hold their breath for 1+Con mod minutes before they start drowning (PHB 183). You can skip that and make them roll every round if you want to, but your players might consider that unfair. Whether or not they're okay with this, it will almost certainly make the encounter much more deadly and raise its CR - remember that suffocating in 5e means they are immediately put into dying status regardless of their HP, making this ability a DC 12 save or die.

Worth pointing out, this is specifically holding their breath, as in they were able to inhale before being plunged underwater. I dont believe there are explicitly rules for whether or not somebody can take a breath before being forcefully plunged into some airless environment. You could probably have it be a con save without too much complaint. So if they fail the save, players have their con modifier number of rounds to rescue them before they suffocate, otherwise theyre good for a while, if really unhappy with the tree.

[Psyren]

If you wanted to ratchet up the tension instead of making them start drowning immediately you could have a special attack like

Gut Punch: X damage, the PC must make a save vs X DC. On failure the PC expels some oxygen from their lungs, reducing the time they can hold their breath by 1 minute. Can only be done to a grappled creature.

Yeah I'd lean more toward something like this. "Fail one save start dying" doesn't really fit with 5e's design ethos imo.


Worth pointing out, this is specifically holding their breath, as in they were able to inhale before being plunged underwater. I dont believe there are explicitly rules for whether or not somebody can take a breath before being forcefully plunged into some airless environment. You could probably have it be a con save without too much complaint. So if they fail the save, players have their con modifier number of rounds to rescue them before they suffocate, otherwise theyre good for a while, if really unhappy with the tree.

As written, the suffocation rules make no distinction between "prepared breath holding" or "suddenness." Even if you rule the creature had no chance to hold their breath before being submerged however, the rules for "if a creature runs out of breath or is choking" would likely kick in here, giving it 1+Con rounds instead of minutes of automatic check-free survival. Skipping that is within the DM's rights to do of course, but these rules are in the PHB/player-facing on top of having major stakes, and so the odds of a table argument are fairly high, hence my advice to try and find a compromise.

[Keltest]

As written, the suffocation rules make no distinction between "prepared breath holding" or "suddenness." Even if you rule the creature had no chance to hold their breath before being submerged however, the rules for "if a creature runs out of breath or is choking" would likely kick in here, giving it 1+Con rounds instead of minutes of automatic check-free survival. Skipping that is within the DM's rights to do of course, but these rules are in the PHB/player-facing on top of having major stakes, and so the odds of a table argument are fairly high, hence my advice to try and find a compromise.

Incorrect. The full text is thus:


A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 Hit Points and is dying, and it can’t regain Hit Points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 Hit Points.

Emphasis mine. There is a distinction between holding your breath, and choking or not holding your breath. What the rules dont offer any advice on is how to determine whether somebody could hold their breath before being forced into an airless environment.

[clash]

I find to make drowning rules actually fun and impactful during combat I had to homebrew them a bit. The way I run it is they make a save every round they are fully submerged. After 3 failed saves they fall unconscious and start making death saves. If the creature comes up for air at any time, the saves reset. Gives it some immediate threat but still a minimum of 3 rounds to impact.

[Psyren]

Incorrect. The full text is thus:



Emphasis mine. There is a distinction between holding your breath, and choking or not holding your breath. What the rules dont offer any advice on is how to determine whether somebody could hold their breath before being forced into an airless environment.

That's literally what I said :smallconfused: The rules specify either what happens if you're able to hold your breath (minutes), or what happens if you're not able to (rounds). In neither case is a Con saving throw vs. dying each round involved, both are instead automatic timers. In addition, neither case specifies what action or preparation is required to hold your breath.

[Keltest]

That's literally what I said :smallconfused: The rules specify either what happens if you're able to hold your breath (minutes), or what happens if you're not able to (rounds). In neither case is a Con saving throw vs. dying each round involved, both are instead automatic timers. In addition, neither case specifies what action or preparation is required to hold your breath.

I never said anything about a con saving throw vs dying each round? I said you could use a con save to see if somebody was able to inhale and hold their breath before somebody submerged them to decide which rule applied, and I said this specifically because the rules offer no advice on how to determine which one to use in this circumstance.

[Psyren]

I never said anything about a con saving throw vs dying each round?

But the OP did, and that's what I was replying to before you jumped in.

And while you're saying "you can make it a con save to see if you held your breath without too much complaint" I was cautioning that adding a save to a player-facing rule like this could indeed cause complaint.

[KorvinStarmast]

So I'm running a game that is written with awakened trees that are described as grabbing PCs and bring them underwater (into a 10' deep pond), but no rules are provided to support this. The trees have a slam attack, but no grapple rider. This is for mid tier 2 PCs.

What would you recommend?

I'm leaning toward adding an auto grapple rider on a slam hit, and then underwater combat rules for folks in the pool with a DC 12 CON save at end of every submerged turn vs choking ... I'd recommend that you apply the KISS principle. If they don't want to make the slam attack, they can grapple as a special melee attack, and then try to move the PC under the water. Then take a look at the rules for drowning/suffocation in Chapter 9. Most of what you want seems to me to be there. Once they have them grappled, they can keep on slam attacking the PC with the "free hand" on successive rounds.

[Segev]

I have often looked, but if I found it, I have forgotten where: are there rules to determine whether a creature had the ability to take/hold a breath before they were put in a situation where they need to?

Obviously, if Bob the Fighter is about to jump into the water to walk across the bottom of the lake in his full plate armor, he can stop to take a deep breath and hold it before jumping in. No action is specified as required for this, to my knowledge, but at the same time, nothing says it doesn't require an action, object interaction, bonus action, or reaction. It is left unstated, unless I am missing something.

If Bob is grappled and pulled underwater, does he have the time and knowledge to take that breath and hold it? Does he just automatically get to hold his breath the full time without taking a deep breath? Does it require his reaction?

Certainly, if it is not assumed that Bob can take the required action to "hold his breath" before he goes under, this is a much more threatening attack than if it is assumed automatically that Bob is holding his breath just as well as if he had intentionally dived in with a moment to prepare.

I don't know if there are rules beyond "DM adjudication." If there aren't, I propose EITHER requiring your reaction to "hold your breath" suddenly, or making it a Dexterity save to have the mental wherewithal to realize you need to gulp in and hold that breath in the brief time before you're submerged.

[Psyren]

I don't know if there are rules beyond "DM adjudication." If there aren't, I propose EITHER requiring your reaction to "hold your breath" suddenly, or making it a Dexterity save to have the mental wherewithal to realize you need to gulp in and hold that breath in the brief time before you're submerged.

There are not.

Even if you rule they didn't/couldn't do so though, RAW is they still have Con mod rounds before they're in danger of dying due to the "runs out of breath/is choking" clause.

[JackPhoenix]

Note also that by adding a free grapple to their hits you're essentially giving them a second attack, which should also be factored into their CR.

You're not, it shouldn't, and it isn't. Rider on an attack =/= another attack, and even if it was, it doesn't matter, because attacks that don't do damage (like grapple) don't influence CR.

[Sorinth]

It's definitely DM adjudication on whether they can hold their breath prior to being pulled under or not. My advice is allow them to take that breath, but each time they take damage they have to make a con save with a DC equal to the damage (min 10). Fail that and they are suffocating and so only have a few rounds.

This gives the trees something to do after they've grappled their target which is nice. You can even flavour their attacks as vines trying to wrap around the throat and strangle the players rather then a "slam" attack.

[sithlordnergal]

Keep in mind that most creatures can hold their breath for 1+Con mod minutes before they start drowning (PHB 183). You can skip that and make them roll every round if you want to, but your players might consider that unfair. Whether or not they're okay with this, it will almost certainly make the encounter much more deadly and raise its CR - remember that suffocating in 5e means they are immediately put into dying status regardless of their HP, making this ability a DC 12 save or die.

Note also that by adding a free grapple to their hits you're essentially giving them a second attack, which should also be factored into their CR.

I would try and use the monster creation rules to estimate what effect a second attack and a DC 12 ability that does damage = the toughest party member's HP total might do to the monster's offensive CR, and recalculate accordingly. You may find that these two additions make your encounter's CR much too high for your group and necessitate further tweaks. I'd consider failing the Con save each round to not immediately lead to choking but rather to some HP loss or losing a minute of air.

I don't remember where I saw/read this, but a good rule for this is that you have to actually state you're going to hold your breath before you're in a situation where you need to hold your breath in order for that 1+Con minutes to take effect. If you don't state you're actively holding your breath before you're put into a situation where you can't breath, then you bypass that and go straight to the "You survive a number of rounds equal to your Constitution Modifier". Additionally, you cannot hold your breath and speak at the same time, meaning spellcasters can't hold their breath and cast a spell with a Verbal component at the same time.

This makes Suffocation a LOT more dangerous and a LOT more of a serious threat. Especially because more players aren't going to hold their breath during combat, so you can hold them under water and suddenly they need to be freed within 2 to 3 rounds, or they drop to 0. I've added it to all of my games and it opens up so many strategies for players and myself.

[Sorinth]

Also keep in mind the fallback rules for everything are
1) DM describes the environment.
2) The players describe what they want to do
3) The DM narrates the results of the adventurers actions

So if the players say they take a deep breath before they get pulled underwater it's the DM's job to determine it's possible, whether a roll is needed, and if so what to roll and what DC to set. Now since there's no reason not to take a deep breath if the player can you can skip forcing the players to say they take a deep breath and go straight to the result/die roll.

[sithlordnergal]

Also keep in mind the fallback rules for everything are
1) DM describes the environment.
2) The players describe what they want to do
3) The DM narrates the results of the adventurers actions

So if the players say they take a deep breath before they get pulled underwater it's the DM's job to determine it's possible, whether a roll is needed, and if so what to roll and what DC to set. Now since there's no reason not to take a deep breath if the player can you can skip forcing the players to say they take a deep breath and go straight to the result/die roll.

Just be careful with this, because it could result in basically making any form of environmental hazard that uses suffocation pointless, especially in combat. If a player can take a deep breath for free when they're about to be shoved underwater, then they're always going to do this. It basically removes suffocation as a combat hazard unless they're a spell caster, and even then its only a hazard if the player only has verbal spells and no way to teleport out of the grapple. I know this from experience thanks to players trying to hold their breath only when it matters instead of thinking/planning ahead.

Personally, I just run it so that you have to decide if you're holding your breath at the start of your turn. If you aren't holding your breath at the start of your turn, then you're breathing normally, haven't taken a deep breath, and cannot do so if you're suddenly grappled and plunged under water. Additionally, you can't choose to hold your breath at the start of your turn if you're Surprised. Its sort of similar to averting your gaze when facing a Bodak. You can't avert your gaze on someone else's turn when you fight a Bodak, you have to choose to do so at the start of your turn, and can only do so if you're not surprised.

[Sorinth]

Just be careful with this, because it could result in basically making any form of environmental hazard that uses suffocation pointless, especially in combat. If a player can take a deep breath for free when they're about to be shoved underwater, then they're always going to do this. It basically removes suffocation as a combat hazard unless they're a spell caster, and even then its only a hazard if the player only has verbal spells and no way to teleport out of the grapple. I know this from experience thanks to players trying to hold their breath only when it matters instead of thinking/planning ahead.

Personally, I just run it so that you have to decide if you're holding your breath at the start of your turn. If you aren't holding your breath at the start of your turn, then you're breathing normally, haven't taken a deep breath, and cannot do so if you're suddenly grappled and plunged under water. Additionally, you can't choose to hold your breath at the start of your turn if you're Surprised. Its sort of similar to averting your gaze when facing a Bodak. You can't avert your gaze on someone else's turn when you fight a Bodak, you have to choose to do so at the start of your turn, and can only do so if you're not surprised.

It's the DM's job to determine whether it's possible or not, so in no way does it remove suffocation as an environmental hazard, the DM has to look at each case and make a ruling, in some cases it's automatic no check needed (Sinking in quicksand for example), in others it might be auto failure, and in others it's possible but we have to roll to see if they are successful. Personally in combat I don't buy that being grappled and plunged under water is in any way sudden enough to be an auto-failure unless it was during a surprise round (And even then I'd probably just impose disadvantage on the roll). Whereas with environmental hazards it seems much more likely to be a surprise and therefore either auto-failure or high DC but that's all going to depend on the hazard in question.

[da newt]

Party of 8, average level 8.5, vs 3 awakened trees (CR 2, 1 attack, 19 ST) and 4 KAMADAN (CR4).

This is not a boss fight, I'll be going w/ con mod rounds (min 1) before drowning at end of turn. The odds of me successfully choking out one PC is low ... odds of death approaching zero.

[Segev]

One bit of humor: technically, the PCs could just declare they're holding their breath at the start of combat every combat, and the rules wouldn't make them suffer for it. Even a PC with a Con of 10 or lower gets 5 rounds of free breath-holding, and most combats are over much sooner than that!

[Psyren]

One bit of humor: technically, the PCs could just declare they're holding their breath at the start of combat every combat, and the rules wouldn't make them suffer for it. Even a PC with a Con of 10 or lower gets 5 rounds of free breath-holding, and most combats are over much sooner than that!

That would be tougher to get away with as a caster than as a martial.

Hey - we found a tactic where martials are superior!

[Sorinth]

I can't imagine taking a deep breath would be anything more then a free action though, so there's no reason players couldn't take a deep breath at the end of each of their turns.

[sithlordnergal]

It's the DM's job to determine whether it's possible or not, so in no way does it remove suffocation as an environmental hazard, the DM has to look at each case and make a ruling, in some cases it's automatic no check needed (Sinking in quicksand for example), in others it might be auto failure, and in others it's possible but we have to roll to see if they are successful. Personally in combat I don't buy that being grappled and plunged under water is in any way sudden enough to be an auto-failure unless it was during a surprise round (And even then I'd probably just impose disadvantage on the roll). Whereas with environmental hazards it seems much more likely to be a surprise and therefore either auto-failure or high DC but that's all going to depend on the hazard in question.

It is the DMs job to determine all that, personally I just prefer to use a simple "You're not holding your breath unless you said you were at the start of your turn". Its quick, easy, and players can't really argue that they should have been given a check or lower DC when something happens. I will admit its harsh, but then I like to make my rules harsher for things like this.

Its just allowing such things to be done whenever should be done carefully since it does negate having those hazards in the first place. After all, what's the point of holding someone underwater via a grapple if they can just hold their breath for 2 or 3 minutes, when combat barely takes a minute already?

[Sorinth]

It is the DMs job to determine all that, personally I just prefer to use a simple "You're not holding your breath unless you said you were at the start of your turn". Its quick, easy, and players can't really argue that they should have been given a check or lower DC when something happens. I will admit its harsh, but then I like to make my rules harsher for things like this.

Its just allowing such things to be done whenever should be done carefully since it does negate having those hazards in the first place. After all, what's the point of holding someone underwater via a grapple if they can just hold their breath for 2 or 3 minutes, when combat barely takes a minute already?

And if they wanted to take another deep breath at some point during their turn is that going to cost their Action, Bonus Action?

[sithlordnergal]

And if they wanted to take another deep breath at some point during their turn is that going to cost their Action, Bonus Action?

I mean, one why would they need to take another deep breath? You already have it for a number of minutes equal to 1+Con Mod. Now, if they choose to hold their breath, then release it via speech or casting a spell with a verbal component, well sorry. You can hold your breath again at the start of your next turn. After all, each round is technically happening at the same time and in 6 second intervals. Its not "I cast a spell as he waits for me to do so", its technically "I cast a spell while he is plunging me into the water"

[Sorinth]

I mean, one why would they need to take another deep breath? You already have it for a number of minutes equal to 1+Con Mod. Now, if they choose to hold their breath, then release it via speech or casting a spell with a verbal component, well sorry. You can hold your breath again at the start of your next turn. After all, each round is technically happening at the same time and in 6 second intervals. Its not "I cast a spell as he waits for me to do so", its technically "I cast a spell while he is plunging me into the water"

And casting a spell with verbal components doesn't require speaking for 6s straight, so why wouldn't they be able to take a deep breath right after casting?

Anyways why not just go with my original suggestion and have taking damage possibly cause the loss of breath, that way it works equally against casters and martials and doesn't come across as being pedantic or trying to delve into the turn based but also simultaneous stuff that never has a good answer.

[sithlordnergal]

And casting a spell with verbal components doesn't require speaking for 6s straight, so why wouldn't they be able to take a deep breath right after casting?

Anyways why not just go with my original suggestion and have taking damage possibly cause the loss of breath, that way it works equally against casters and martials and doesn't come across as being pedantic or trying to delve into the turn based but also simultaneous stuff that never has a good answer.

Same reason I don't allow short rests immediately after a long rest. Occasionally you need to acknowledge its a game and that there are some rules I put in place at my table to keep things balanced, relevant, or dangerous, verisimilitude be damned. Plus, by making it so casting causes you to immediately lose the benefits of holding your breath with no chance of doing so again till the start of your turn, you give martial classes something they can excel at and Casters a nice pro vs con choice. Even if its a niche thing. Which is a net gain in my book. I may not see a need to nerf casters, but I also don't see a need to give them an easier time when they're under water.

[Segev]

Definitely a house rule, but perhaps more defensible on verisimilitude grounds: holding your breath requires concentration, and can be begun resumed on your turn. This has a near-identical effect of screwing over casters more than martials, but means even martial's have trouble maintaining it while fighting, since taking damage forces a concentration save.

[Keltest]

Definitely a house rule, but perhaps more defensible on verisimilitude grounds: holding your breath requires concentration, and can be begun resumed on your turn. This has a near-identical effect of screwing over casters more than martials, but means even martial's have trouble maintaining it while fighting, since taking damage forces a concentration save.

That would make drowning/suffocation more effective than even dispel magic at shutting down concentration spells like Haste, wouldnt it?

[Segev]

That would make drowning/suffocation more effective than even dispel magic at shutting down concentration spells like Haste, wouldnt it?

It would. Though that's "holding your breath," not "your last few rounds before suffocation hits." i.e. the minutes of held breath rather than the rounds of not-yet-suffocated. If you see concentrating on haste, you can still last a few rounds before you reflexively breathe in and start suffocating. You just can't focus on not exhaling and concentrate on a spell.

For a more forgiving version, just use concentration breaking rules on holding breath, but you can concentrate on something else, too. It's just that you lose your held breath if you lose concentration. Or would lose it.