Air Magic, Expanded! (& the new Air Sorcerer) PEACH

[GalacticAxekick]

Following my expansion of Earth magic and revision of the Stone Sorcerer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646358-Earth-Magic-Expanded!-(Sorcerery-Revised!)-PEACH#post25476110), I want to dramatically expand the variety of air-related spells 5e offers. And as a vehicle for this update, I'm introducing the Air Sorcerer subclass. Here are my design goals:
Write enough air spells that a spellcaster could learn nothin but air spells up to 20th level and still have room to choose between spells.
Write a good enough variety of air spells that a spellcaster could learn nothing but air spells up to 20th level without feeling like they sacrificed mechanical power to play their theme.
Write a Sorcerer subclass focused on getting the most out of air spells while have no access to non-air magic (like an Airbender in Avatar, for example)


Eventually, I want to do the same with Fire, Water, and other themes.

Let me know what you think of what's already there, and lend me your ideas for more spells and features!


Check it out here (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/O5RjvkJbSP_5)

[Goobahfish]

Cantrips

Blowgun is neat.

Adding Prone to Gust is a cool idea.

Hush is awesome. I wonder if it might make more sense as a concentration spell (1 minute)? Might make it too powerful of course.

So, if I read this right, Updraft is basically a 'double jump'? It is sort of a toned down Jump combined with a toned down feather fall. This seems quite powerful (not that it is a bad thing). Jump and Featherfall are a bit weak if anything. Could use a bit of a tweak I think.

I think giving Thunderclap an 'auto escape combat' function is probably a bit over-the-top. Perhaps just on a fail would be more appropriate.

Vortex is pretty neat.

Summary:
These are pretty cool. All of them at least 'seem' like things I might take for a character (which is saying a lot, most cantrips are just filler).

Level 1
Catapult, Feather fall, Jump, Thunderwave, Zephyr Strike. These all seem broadly correct for air magic.
Obviously with Updraft, I can't really imagine taking Jump or Featherfall (not that I'd take them anyway on a limited spell character).

Think Fast
I can't help but think this is slightly overtuned. +5 AC and half damage is pretty big. This might be better served as a 2nd level spell (to differentiate it from Shield). I get Shield lasts for longer but Shield is kind of on the edge of OP anyway.

Level 2
Dust Devil, Gust of Wind, Levitate, Shatter, Silence, Warding Wind.

Yep. Clearly you've chosen Thunder as the Air magic damage.

Suffocate. This is a bit too effective or useless. Without a save it feels very powerful vs low Con creatures but completely useless against anything with a con bonus of +3 or more. Not really sure how to adjust this but I do like the concept.

In the rules it is 1 minute/Constitution bonus (minimum 30 s).

Level 3
Fly, Pulse Wave, Wind Wall
All good choices

Level 4
Vaccuum
Very interesting but the Suffocation effect is still pretty brutal (i.e. unbalanced).

Level 5
Cone of Cold is an odd choice.
Control Winds and Telekinesis kind of make sense.

Level 6+
Yep.

---

Some ideas to throw around

Calming Winds. A low-level spell which creates an air pocket to avoid outside winds. Within the region, the air is nice and still, flames are protected etc. (What to do in a hurricane).

Pinning Downdraft. A mid-level spell which uses concentration to basically force enemies to being prone and requires a Strength save to move. Maybe some minor damage. This is in Control Winds, but a more combat-focused, small AOE version might be useful.

Solidified Air/Wind Bridge. A mid-level spell which allows you to create a continuing updraft which allows multiple creatures to 'drift' over a gap.

Trap sound. A low level spell that prevents sound escaping a ring. You can talk within it with impunity (might be better as an extension to silence).

Nearly Forgot:
Sudden Vaccuum Vortex. Creatures in a region are all thrown into each other (Strength save).

[GalacticAxekick]

Cantrips
Blowgun is neat.

Adding Prone to Gust is a cool idea.

Hush is awesome.Glad you like these!


I wonder if it might make more sense as a concentration spell (1 minute)? Might make it too powerful of course.I think it would be too powerful, yes.


So, if I read this right, Updraft is basically a 'double jump'? It is sort of a toned down Jump combined with a toned down feather fall. This seems quite powerful (not that it is a bad thing). Jump and Featherfall are a bit weak if anything. Could use a bit of a tweak I think.Updraft is a double jump, combined with a toned-down feather fall, yes! Strong for a cantrip, but weak for a 1st level spell: weaker than Jump and Feather Fall, which are already pretty bad spells.

If it's too powerful, I can simply split it into two spells: Updraft as a double jump and Air Cushion to break falls.


I think giving Thunderclap an 'auto escape combat' function is probably a bit over-the-top. Perhaps just on a fail would be more appropriate.Fair enough!


Vortex is pretty neat.

Summary:
These are pretty cool. All of them at least 'seem' like things I might take for a character (which is saying a lot, most cantrips are just filler).Glad you like them!


Level 1
Catapult, Feather fall, Jump, Thunderwave, Zephyr Strike. These all seem broadly correct for air magic.
Obviously with Updraft, I can't really imagine taking Jump or Featherfall (not that I'd take them anyway on a limited spell character).Yeah, there's no salvaging Jump and Featherfall. All I could do was include enough 1st level spells for the player to have options besides those two.


Think Fast
I can't help but think this is slightly overtuned. +5 AC and half damage is pretty big. This might be better served as a 2nd level spell (to differentiate it from Shield). I get Shield lasts for longer but Shield is kind of on the edge of OP anyway.I can't see myself spending a 2nd level spell slot on a chance to avoid one attack. I could nerf the spell, but I can't bump it up a level. How might I nerf it?


Suffocate. This is a bit too effective or useless. Without a save it feels very powerful vs low Con creatures but completely useless against anything with a con bonus of +3 or more. Not really sure how to adjust this but I do like the concept.Against creatures with a Con bonus of 3 or more, Suffocate still prevents speech and verbal components. It keeps the spellcaster from casting, the witness from testifying, and the watchman from blowing the bugle. It's a garrote you can use knock the guard out from 60 feet away, while hiding. I'm not worried about it being underpowered.

But if it's OVERPOWERED against creatures with low Con, I have to do something. How about I replace the second paragraph with this: "Your target can remain conscious for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, the target falls unconscious. Once the target can breathe again, it remains unconscious for 1 minute, until it takes damage, or until a creature uses its action to shake the target awake."

This puts the spell more on par with Hold Person (while you are concentrating on it) and Sleep (when you stop concentrating). It can't kill the target by itself, but it can render them vulnerable to attacks, or simply take them out of the fight while you focus on other targets.


In the rules it is 1 minute/Constitution bonus (minimum 30 s).Yes and no.




Suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 Hit Points and is dying, and it can’t regain Hit Points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 Hit Points.


PHB page 183






The Suffocate spell is based on the rules for choking, rather than the rules for holding breath. After all, you are ripping the air out of the target's lungs.


Level 5
Cone of Cold is an odd choice.
Control Winds and Telekinesis kind of make sense.Cone of Cold's description says "A blast of cold air erupts from your hands." That isn't appropriate? Kinda like when youu blow on food to cool it down, except way way more.


Calming Winds. A low-level spell which creates an air pocket to avoid outside winds. Within the region, the air is nice and still, flames are protected etc. (What to do in a hurricane).I like this idea! It's a bundle of niche effects, which makes up for them being niche. I might include a sort of diving-helmet-air-bubble effect too.


Pinning Downdraft. A mid-level spell which uses concentration to basically force enemies to being prone and requires a Strength save to move. Maybe some minor damage. This is in Control Winds, but a more combat-focused, small AOE version might be useful.I like this quite a bit! Which reminds me, I should probably include Earthbind


Solidified Air/Wind Bridge. A mid-level spell which allows you to create a continuing updraft which allows multiple creatures to 'drift' over a gap.I was about to say "this is Wind Walk", but I'm realizing now the Wind Walk does NOT let you walk on air, but rather turns you and your companions into living clouds.

I'm going to remove Wind Walk from this spell list and add your Wind Bridge.


Trap sound. A low level spell that prevents sound escaping a ring. You can talk within it with impunity (might be better as an extension to silence).Awesome idea!


Sudden Vaccuum Vortex. Creatures in a region are all thrown into each other (Strength save).Another really fun idea! Thanks!

[Breccia]

I read the vacuum spell. Naturally, I abhor it.

..get it?

No really, the idea of making a large barrier that blocks certain attacks is pretty handy. It's damned effective at shutting down dragons in particular, losing any spellcasting, wing attacks, and flight.

That said, I would recommend a few changes for contested effects of the spell.

1) It should mess up air elementals really badly. Like, ice storm level of damage on cast + damage per round they stay in it.

2) I'd have the vacuum resist wind magic up to its level. #1 and #2 give a reason to upcast.

3) You know what else doesn't work in a vacuum? Flames.

4) I'd allow a saving throw, probably Con, to let targets inside get a double lungful of air when the spell hits them. RAW, right now, this will kill many, many creatures in a few rounds, because if they breathe they don't get a saving throw or anything, just a short lifespan. They aren't even awoken by damage while still in the spell's effect.

Now I know you've said you're ripping the air from their lungs, but at the same time, there are spells that rip the water from their bodies, namely blight, and they don't immediately put them in Dehydration rules with no saving throw to avoid level(s) of Exhaustion, despite what the rules say about not drinking for days. Alternatively, using create or destroy water as an attack spell is universally frowned upon. A first-level spell destroys 10 gallons of water in an open container. A fourth-level spell that destroyes water in a living creature does 8d8 save for half, no Exhaustion. If you removed 10 gallons of water from a human body, you'd have a skeleton wrapped in beef jerky. Or...dust. Spells that create or destroy things like air and water out in the open should have different rules than spells that create or destroy things like air and water inside a creature who needs them.

As per usual, my thoughts are "how would the players feel if you hit them with it?" It already creates a 20 foot radius zone in which they cannot cast spells at all (well some sorcerers maybe), and you're also saying it will KO half the party, with no saving throw, if they don't flee within two rounds. Imagine being the Wizard, hell, imagine being the Rogue caught in that. D&D fights can be over quickly, but "kill me in 2 rounds or I win" doesn't sound like something most player parties are prepared for.

I guess, look at it this way: the villain has just used the Shove attack and pushed the PC overboard. Do you give them any kind of skill check or Saving Throw to hold their breath before they hit the water, even though it's not their turn? If you said "yes" then this spell should allow the same. Alternatively, if a PC says "I put my Grappled target in a choke-hold" do you respond with "okay, he can't cast spells and he's unconsious in two rounds and has no Saving Throw against either"? According to the rules you're quoting, you should. Why wouldn't everyone choke-hold the players every time? And they'd have a chance to escape by breaking the Grapple. Your spell has no such escape.

And "they can just walk out of the effect" isn't good enough for me. We've both played in enough dungeons to know rooms with one exit, smaller than 20 foot radius, are common. The spell is cast into the room, the Fighter blocks the only door for a few rounds, boom, easy victory.

Simply put, the utility/defense this spell offers is good enough that also making it a vicious killer offense spell against many targets just doesn't feel necessary, especially when you can just use suffocation to do that directly. I would encourage you to nerf the use of vacuum to easily disable many targets quickly, add mass suffocation to fill that...empty space...man, there should be a word for that.

[GalacticAxekick]

I read the vacuum spell. Naturally, I abhor it.

..get it?XD clever


1) It should mess up air elementals really badly. Like, ice storm level of damage on cast + damage per round they stay in it.Noted!! I'll add a clause for this.


2) I'd have the vacuum resist wind magic up to its level. #1 and #2 give a reason to upcast.That clause already exists. "Ordinary wind cannot pass through the vacuum. Tornados, hurricanes, and magical wind created by spell of 4th level or higher can not only enter the vacuum, but also cause this spell to end."


3) You know what else doesn't work in a vacuum? Flames.I thought I had already written this in, but clearly I haven't. Thanks for pointing this out!


4) I'd allow a saving throw, probably Con, to let targets inside get a double lungful of air when the spell hits them. RAW, right now, this will kill many, many creatures in a few rounds, because if they breathe they don't get a saving throw or anything, just a short lifespan. They aren't even awoken by damage while still in the spell's effect. After Goobahfish raised similar balance concerns, I already rewrote the spell to inflict unconsciousness but never death.


As per usual, my thoughts are "how would the players feel if you hit them with it?" It already creates a 20 foot radius zone in which they cannot cast spells at all (well some sorcerers maybe), and you're also saying it will KO half the party, with no saving throw, if they don't flee within two rounds. Imagine being the Wizard, hell, imagine being the Rogue caught in that. D&D fights can be over quickly, but "kill me in 2 rounds or I win" doesn't sound like something most player parties are prepared for.More like "move at most 20 feet in any direction, or break my concentration in 2 rounds". It's a serious ultimatum (even with the death effect removed), but far from insurmountable. In the enclosed spaces where Vacuum seems most dangerous, the caster themself would begin to suffocate! If there's room for the caster to escape the vacuum, there is almost certainly room for the targets (in this case, the players) to do the same.


I guess, look at it this way: the villain has just used the Shove attack and pushed the PC overboard. Do you give them any kind of skill check or Saving Throw to hold their breath before they hit the water, even though it's not their turn?No, I don't.


Alternatively, if a PC says "I put my Grappled target in a choke-hold" do you respond with "okay, he can't cast spells and he's unconsious in two rounds and has no Saving Throw against either"?Yes, I do! I have exactly that laid out in my expanded combat rules (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/pF3pQAU8c).


Why wouldn't everyone choke-hold the players every time?While the strangler spends round after round with both hands occupied (one grappling, one strangling) the victim is free to attack other targets and attack the strangler, potentially while making attempts to break free. If the victim breaks free, the strangler has made no progress in the fight, while the victim has dealt damage all the while. Those wasted turns are a big risk for the strangler to take.

At my table, enemies and players strangle when their target is too durable to fight by conventional means (e.g. a creature with high AC, high HP, damage immunities, or regeneration), when bloodshed is not an option (in a kidnapping or arrest), or when silence is of the essence (breaking out of jail, sneaking into a vault). Otherwise, enemies and players favor ordinary attacks.


And they'd have a chance to escape by breaking the Grapple. Your spell has no such escape.Breaking the caster's concentration and leaving the room are the obvious ways to escape. But you're right that this isn't as reliable as having a once-per-round save or ability check.


And "they can just walk out of the effect" isn't good enough for me. We've both played in enough dungeons to know rooms with one exit, smaller than 20 foot radius, are common. The spell is cast into the room, the Fighter blocks the only door for a few rounds, boom, easy victory.This is exactly the kind of scenario I'd love to see! I actually might not have come up with this, but I'll definitely use this scenario!

Puzzling through constraints like this (a whole party with a time limit and no air vs a fighter with all the time and air in the world) is exactly how I love my D&D encounters, rather than trading blows until the tougher team wins! It gives players the opportunity to make creative use of their abilities. For instance:
A Warlock player might use Eldritch Smite to knock the fighter prone and simply walk through his space.
A Sorcerer player might use metamagic to cast spells silently.
A Wizard player might search her huge spell list for anything useful that lacks verbal components (fittingly, Kinetic Jaunt could let the wizard move straight through the Fighter's space and has no verbal component!)
A martial player of any kind might grapple the enemy Fighter and simply drag him aside



Simply put, the utility/defense this spell offers is good enough that also making it a vicious killer offense spell against many targets just doesn't feel necessary, especially when you can just use suffocation to do that directly.I'm definitely open to nerfing the spell, given the powerful combination of utility of offense it offers. But I won't make it yet another "save to end" spell that leaves combat up to the dice rather than player creativity. I love the ticking timer.

A simple nerf would be making the spell end if the vacuum is ever out of the caster's sight. This way, the caster can't use this spell and run off someplace where the players can't break their concentration.

A similar nerf would be requiring the caster's action every round to maintain the vacuum. This way, the caster must stay close AND the caster cannot be attacking or otherwise harassing the players while they struggle to escape the vacuum. Just like the grappler-strangler I mentioned before, the caster is committed 100% to the vacuum working, and ends up wasting both rounds of combat and a 4th level slot if the vacuum fails.

[Goobahfish]

Cone of Cold's description says "A blast of cold air erupts from your hands." That isn't appropriate? Kinda like when youu blow on food to cool it down, except way way more.

It does fit tbh. It will make water magic a bit more difficult methinks.


If it's too powerful, I can simply split it into two spells: Updraft as a double jump and Air Cushion to break falls.

Keep it as is I say. I think the 'OP-vibes' is just because Featherfall and Jump are pretty bad.

Suffocation and Vacuum
I'd be inclined to allow a Strength save (i.e. strong lungs) which let you 'hold the air in'. Obviously in normal circumstances (space) this would be outrageously bad, but the vacuum is being maintained by magic and thus is artificial movement of particles so they can 'fight' you for the air so to speak. Then the choking/silence/falling etc kind of works reasonably well.

That said for suffocate compared to Hold Person... Hold Person gives you repeated saves. Against certain monsters, this would be save or suck which is probably a decent compromise.

[Abuzorg]

Why not put most of the core lightning damage spell on the Air list? Lightning damage is associated with air creatures, magic and environments pretty consistently in D&D, nevermind in most fantasy fictions. On top of that, thunder damage spells are already part of your list. Here is a list of spells I think you should add to your list :

Cantrips
Lightning lure
Shocking grasp

1st level
Witch bolt

2nd level
Dragon breath (lightning only)

3rd level
Call lightning
Elemental weapon (lightning only)
Lightning bolt
Lightning arrow

4th level
Conjure lesser elemental (air only)
Elemental bane (lightning only)
Storm sphere
Summon elemental (air only)

5th level
Conjure elemental (air only)

6th level
Chain lightning

[GalacticAxekick]

Why not put most of the core lightning damage spell on the Air list? Lightning damage is associated with air creatures, magic and environments pretty consistently in D&D, nevermind in most fantasy fictions. On top of that, thunder damage spells are already part of your list.Simply put, because this project only concerns the air.

EDIT: Here's a quick Storm Sorcerer (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/q3OX0W3InjmD), which grants access to various weather-related spells. But none of the class features involve anything but manipulating air, because my goal is to represent a controller of the air, and baking lightning/snow/rain effects into the class features would interfere with that.

Eventually, I'd like to write a more thorough Storm Sorcerer that focuses exclusively on lightning, and that includes a dramatic expansion of lightning-themed magic (including various magnetic effects and defibrillator-like healing effects)

[sandmote]

The message cantrip belongs to the school of transmutation and is blocked by solid surfaces (and magical silence) because it manipulates the vibrations in air. On that basis I would consider adding it to the spell list. Similarly, I'd include some spells that boost movement but which can be achieved in multiple ways, such a longstrider and expeditious retreat. Yes, the spell descriptions don't explicitly involve, but a bolstering tailwind could magically provide the same benefits.

Also, where's defenestration? You had a spell for throwing creatures on the stone sorcerer spell list, but not here?

[Damon_Tor]

I really like the spells you've written.

I still disagree, pretty strongly, with your design philosophy as it pertains to sorcerers and spell lists strictly limited by origin. But we've had that discussion before and it is, as before, a matter of taste.

The point is, the spells themselves are excellent, and credit where credit is due.

[GalacticAxekick]

The message cantrip belongs to the school of transmutation and is blocked by solid surfaces (and magical silence) because it manipulates the vibrations in air. On that basis I would consider adding it to the spell list.In my Divination homebrew project I rewrote Message to be explicitly a telepathy spell (totally silent, able to transmit images). Message as officially written would be fitting for the Air Sorcerer, though, so I encourage you to include it if you're using this project but not my Divination project.


Similarly, I'd include some spells that boost movement but which can be achieved in multiple ways, such a longstrider and expeditious retreat. Yes, the spell descriptions don't explicitly involve, but a bolstering tailwind could magically provide the same benefits. Will do!


Also, where's defenestration? You had a spell for throwing creatures on the stone sorcerer spell list, but not here?Gust, Thunderwave, Gust of Wind, Pulse Wave, and Telekinesis are all variations of "throw a creature using the wind".

EDIT: The way I rewrote Gust, it can shove a creature 5 feet, and it can move a lightweight object up to 30 feet. What if I added a clause that floating creatures (such as creatures under the effect of Vortex, Levitate and Fly) count as lightweight objects for this purpose? In other words, that you can throw them 30 feet?

This would give the Air Sorcerer a strong way to throw targets around without resorting to area effects or high level spells.

[GalacticAxekick]

I really like the spells you've written. [...] The point is, the spells themselves are excellent, and credit where credit is due.I really appreciate this! Thanks!


I still disagree, pretty strongly, with your design philosophy as it pertains to sorcerers and spell lists strictly limited by origin. But we've had that discussion before and it is, as before, a matter of taste.You can always give the Air Sorcerer access to the normal Sorcerer spell list at your table, and treat the Air Sorcerer spell list as merely the list of spells that interact with Air Sorcerer features.

Just like how wizard schools have features that interact with spells of X school!

[sandmote]

In my Divination homebrew project I rewrote Message to be explicitly a telepathy spell Oh, right.


Gust, Thunderwave, Gust of Wind, Pulse Wave, and Telekinesis are all variations of "throw a creature using the wind". I suppose, although it still feels weird there isn't a dedicated spell for "chuck a creature."


EDIT: The way I rewrote Gust, it can shove a creature 5 feet, and it can move a lightweight object up to 30 feet. What if I added a clause that floating creatures (such as creatures under the effect of Vortex, Levitate and Fly) count as lightweight objects for this purpose? In other words, that you can throw them 30 feet?

This would give the Air Sorcerer a strong way to throw targets around without resorting to area effects or high level spells. Its still a cantrip. I would at most grant flying and levitating creatures disadvantage on their saving throw.

I'm still bothered by how incredibly short these spell lists are. Additional suggestions: 4th level or higher thunder-dealing spells, a conversion of 3.5's Whispering Wind, and a version of pulse wave with a less restrained area (something like a lone, powerful gust that isn't next to you). Is Rime's Binding Ice insufficiently specific about the source of the effect that you could justify adding it?

[GalacticAxekick]

I suppose, although it still feels weird there isn't a dedicated spell for "chuck a creature."I've added Gale: a 1st level spell for this purpose. It's basically an upgraded Gust.


I'm still bothered by how incredibly short these spell lists are. Additional suggestions: 4th level or higher thunder-dealing spells,I'm stumped at the moment, but I'll try to come up with some!


a conversion of 3.5's Whispering WindAbuzorg wrote one a while ago, so I'll copy that. Thank you, Abuzorg!


and a version of pulse wave with a less restrained area (something like a lone, powerful gust that isn't next to you)I've added Jetstream: a 3rd level spell for this purpose


Is Rime's Binding Ice insufficiently specific about the source of the effect that you could justify adding it?No, I think it's safe to add it!

[sandmote]

I've added Jetstream: a 2nd level spell for this purpose Jetstream is really cool, but I was thinking more of an AoE Gale. On its own I'd leave Catapult where it is and leave Jetstream as the single target option. Though the added spells can probably help me speed through a rough draft of what I was thinking:


Great Squall
4th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
A burst of air roars in a 40 foot cube from point you can see within range. You choose the squall's direction. The squall extinguishes open flames and hedges out vapor, gas, and fog that can be dispersed by strong wind. Each creature of your choice that is Large or smaller must make a Strength saving throw. A creature can voluntarily fail this saving throw. A target that fails the saving throw and each object weighing 500 pounds or less is pushed 30 in the direction of the squall or until to crashes into a creature or object that was not pushed.

If a pushed creature or object crashes into a creature or object that wasn't pushed it and the target each take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for each 10 feet of movement remaining. Each target can only take up to 3d6 damage from being pushed into another target and up to 3d6 damage from pushing into another target.

The last sentence is to try to avoid shenanigan's of "100 tiny stones are each blown into the same giant," but I think there should be a more elegant way of handling it. The concept behind this spell being that if someone uses Wall of Stone or Wall of Force to make a bridge, the air sorcerer can (a) Fly up off the side and Pulse Wave everyone off or (b) use this from further away.

[GalacticAxekick]

Jetstream is really cool, but I was thinking more of an AoE Gale. On its own I'd leave Catapult where it is and leave Jetstream as the single target option. Though the added spells can probably help me speed through a rough draft of what I was thinking:I think you're on to something, but it needs a buff. As it stands, it might be weaker than Tidal Wave

[Yakk]

Blowgun is a bit too cataput-lite for my tastes. I get the idea. But what if it was an animate-objects lite instead of catapult lite? Like, let you make a melee spell attack with 1-4 light weapons? (no attribute bonus to damage)

Vortex should use the standard athletics/acrobatics checks to escape, not a save.

Thunderclap is significantly better than Shocking Grasp, as it prevents OAs even on a "miss".

Updraft replaces a 1st level spell, feather fall, and is better in practice (as it has a secondary function, and its fall prevention is almost the same). A bit much. Feather Fall was already a good 1st level spell, especially after T1.

Guide Arrows can become a 1 round duration, and at higher levels work on more arrows. Also, the reaction can be to make a miss hit?

Think Fast should be more obviously air based. I get how it works as an air-sorcerer.

Suffocate is way out of bounds. Don't-save-just-lose. Or do-nothing-that-matters, depending on monster stats.

Whispering Wind needs to mention the speed of the wind. Also, the size of the area where the whisper occurs.

Jetstream damage caps at 20d6 (70) for a 3rd level slot, or higher if you really cheese it (stuff 4 tiny creatures per 5' square, and that is up to 160d6 (560) damage.)

Blindsight is an in-game term. I'd rename the spell. Windsight?

Squall claims to have a 10 round duration, but lasts ... 3 rounds? It deals up to 18d10 (99) per target. It being a Divination makes no sense.

Vacuum is a "no save, just lose" aoe, assuming you can prevent foes from moving. Or do nothing that matters, depending on monster stats.

[GalacticAxekick]

Blowgun is a bit too cataput-lite for my tastes. I get the idea. But what if it was an animate-objects lite instead of catapult lite? Like, let you make a melee spell attack with 1-4 light weapons? (no attribute bonus to damage)If I wrote a spell like that, I would want it to be much more powerful than a cantrip.

Though you remind me, I should add Animate Objects to the spell list!


Vortex should use the standard athletics/acrobatics checks to escape, not a save.Noted! I'll fix that.


Thunderclap is significantly better than Shocking Grasp, as it prevents OAs even on a "miss".I dont balance spells against bad spells. I balance them against their spell level. If Thunderclap outperforms Shocking Grasp then I'll just rewrite Shocking Grasp


Updraft replaces a 1st level spell, feather fall, and is better in practice (as it has a secondary function, and its fall prevention is almost the same). A bit much. Feather Fall was already a good 1st level spell, especially after T1.Cool. I'll just split Updraft into two spells.


Guide Arrows can become a 1 round duration, and at higher levels work on more arrows. Also, the reaction can be to make a miss hit?Good ideas!


Whispering Wind needs to mention the speed of the wind. Also, the size of the area where the whisper occurs.I'll add a wind speed. But it makes no sense to say the size of the area where the whisper occurs. The whisker occurs at one point in space, and how far you hear it from depends on how good your ears are.


Jetstream damage caps at 20d6 (70) for a 3rd level slot, or higher if you really cheese it (stuff 4 tiny creatures per 5' square, and that is up to 160d6 (560) damage.)How realistic is it to get that many creatures in a row? In practice, I'd expect this to be weaker than Fireball


Think Fast should be more obviously air based. I get how it works as an air-sorcerer.

[...]

Blindsight is an in-game term. I'd rename the spell. Windsight?Like Longstrider and Jump, these spells are not necessarily air spells. They were originally written for my Divination homebrew project.


Squall claims to have a 10 round duration, but lasts ... 3 rounds? It deals up to 18d10 (99) per target. It being a Divination makes no sense.Squall is between edits. What you see is a copy-pasted spell format from a Divination spell, copy-pasted text the 8th level spell Tsunami, and a few edits on my part. When it's done, itshould resemble a weaker Tsunami


Suffocate is way out of bounds. Don't-save-just-lose. Or do-nothing-that-matters, depending on monster stats.

[...]

Vacuum is a "no save, just lose" aoe, assuming you can prevent foes from moving. Or do nothing that matters, depending on monster stats.The targets have at least 1 round (and realistically 2 or more rounds) to either break the castor's concentration or walk away.

The caster spends every action for the duration of the spell just keeping the spell active, and has to remain within range while doing so.

Is that so insurmountable?

[Yakk]

My point is it bypasses existing "hard to kill" mechanics. It does not interact with legendary resists or with HP.

It just happens.

For a monster with decent con, the suffocation does nothing to the fight; they die before they run out of rounds. For one with low con, it ends the fight bypassing every other stat of the monster and almost bypassing everything else the party does.

It either sucks or is broken. Which depends on a detail of a monster stat block that 5e does not consider key to the monster's difficulty, nor is super obvious to a PC.

[GalacticAxekick]

My point is it bypasses existing "hard to kill" mechanics. It does not interact with legendary resists or with HP.

It just happens.Right! Thats the fun of it! It bypasses passive defenses like AC, HP and saves, but gives the target one or more rounds and three different strategies for active defense (break concentration, escape range, prevent caster from taking the action)

I could easily have made it a Flesh to Stone style spell that gives you consecutive Con saves and brings you closer to suffocation with each failure. But that leaves everything to dice.


For a monster with decent con, the suffocation does nothing to the fight; they die before they run out of rounds.

For one with low con, it ends the fight bypassing every other stat of the monster and almost bypassing everything else the party does.

It either sucks or is broken. Which depends on a detail of a monster stat block that 5e does not consider key to the monster's difficulty, nor is super obvious to a PC.How would you fix it?

[Yakk]

I'd interact with damage and/or saves and/or other resolution mechanics and/or positioning.

Disadvantage on some kind of check? Advantage on some kind of check? Some kind of damage?

Gate effects behind some kind of save.

As a general rule, "you lose" should occur after a failed save, and a monster with a LR can negate a "you lose" spell by passing a single save. (There are very rare exceptions)

[GalacticAxekick]

I'd interact with damage and/or saves and/or other resolution mechanics and/or positioning.It definitely won't deal damage. The whole point of strangulation is to defeat enemies that are difficult to damage, or who you want fo incapacitate without harming.

I could make it consecutive Con saves, and unconsciousness on the 2nd or 3rd failure, akin to death saves. Successful saves and LR wouldn't end the spell, but would merely buy time. Leaving range or stopping the caster would remain the only ways to end the spell.


Disadvantage on some kind of check? Advantage on some kind of check?What would these have to do with suffocation?

[Yakk]

A low level spell which requires burning multiple legendary resists to avoid losing isn't balanced.

I can imagine not being able to breathe could cause lots of disadvantage problems.

Level wise, a single-target no-save silence is already OP, as it shuts down a spellcaster nearly completely.

1. Start with a save. If they make the save, the spell fails.

2. While suffocating, they get disadvantage on attacks.

3. At the end of each turn suffocating, you make another save. If you succeed, the spell ends.

4. At the end of con bonus turns (min 1), if the spell is still up, the creature falls unconscious.

...

Or rename it to "steal breath" and make it a 7-9th level spell, because "no save, you just suck" is the territory of T4 spells.

[GalacticAxekick]

A low level spell which requires burning multiple legendary resists to avoid losing isn't balanced.But it doesn't require that! I cannot stress enough, that a creature can move out of range, break the caster's concentration, or prevent the caster from taking an action, and a creature has ample time to do so.

Every creature that has LR has multiple ways to end this spell without using LR, and lots of time to do so:
Adult and Ancient Dragons (Con between 5 and 10) have 80 ft flight speed, high-damage breath weapons, and multiattack.
Empyreans (Con 10) have 50 ft flight speed, and a high-damage, stunning Maul attack
Liches, Demiliches, Mummy Lords and Vampires don't breathe
The Tarrasque (Con 10) is the Tarrasque


I can imagine not being able to breathe could cause lots of disadvantage problems.As far as 5e is concerned, no. Suffocation is just a ticking timer until unconsciousness. My goal with these spells is to take advantage of that unique mechanic. I'm not really interested in downplaying the timer and adding damage/nerfs to replace or support it.


Level wise, a single-target no-save silence is already OP, as it shuts down a spellcaster nearly completely.Even if it prevents the caster themselves from taking actions for the duration? That is, even if it shuts both the caster and the target down?


1. Start with a save. If they make the save, the spell fails.

2. While suffocating, they get disadvantage on attacks.

3. At the end of each turn suffocating, you make another save. If you succeed, the spell ends.

4. At the end of con bonus turns (min 1), if the spell is still up, the creature falls unconscious.Ignoring the disadvantage on attacks, here it is:

Suffocate
2nd level Transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

Choose a creature within range. You attempt to rip the air from your target's lungs. Your target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be unable to speak for the duration.

On each of your turns for the duration, if you are within range of your target and you are able to perform verbal and somatic spell components, you can use your action to tighten your strangle on the target. When you do so, your target must make an additional Constitution saving throw. After failing a number of these additional Constitution saves equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1), your target falls unconscious. Once the target can breathe again, it remains unconscious for 1 minute, until it takes damage, or until a creature uses its action to shake the target awake.

Creatures that do not need air (e.g. fish, frogs, undead and constructs), and creatures with the Hold Breath feature (such as whales and crocodiles) are unaffected by this spell.

Vacuum
4th level Transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration (up to 10 minutes)

Choose 20 foot radius sphere centered on a point in range. You clear the air away from this area, turning the area into a vacuum for the duration. The vacuum's edges shimmer like the surface of a pool, rendering them simultaneously visible and transparent.

On each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action maintain the vacuum, provided that you are within range of it. This spell ends if you fail to do so.

The vacuum has the following properties:

Decompression. Gaseous creatures (e.g. air elementals) take 5d8 force damage if they begin their turn within the vacuum, or if they enter the vacuum for the first time on their turn.
Flames. Flames within the vacuum are extinguished instantaneously.
Flight. Flight is impossible within the vacuum, except by magical means.
Wind. Ordinary wind cannot pass through the vacuum. If a tornado, hurricane, or magical wind created by spell of this spell's level or higher enters the vacuum, it causes this spell to end.
Silence. No sound can be created within or pass through the vacuum. Any creature or object entirely inside the vacuum is immune to thunder damage, and creatures are deafened while entirely inside it. Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there.
Suffocation. Each creature that ends its turn inside the vacuum must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing a number of saving throws equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1) the creature falls unconscious. Once the target can breathe again, it remains unconscious for 1 minute, until it takes damage, or until a creature uses its action to shake the target awake.

Creatures that do not need air (e.g. fish, frogs, undead and constructs), and creatures with the Hold Breath feature (such as whales and crocodiles) ignore this effect.
When this spell ends, air rushes back into the vacuum with a loud pop audible from 300 feet away.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the damage the vacuum deals to gaseous creatures increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 4th.


Or rename it to "steal breath" and make it a 7-9th level spell, because "no save, you just suck" is the territory of T4 spells.I think this would be seriously underpowered for a 7th level spell. All the target would need to do is move a short distance or break your concentration, which is trivial at such high levels. The spell would never accomplish anything without the support of the whole party, unless you were targeting a creature you could take out with a much lower level spell.

I suffocate the young dragon! "It flies 80 feet straight upwards, ending the spell"
I suffocate one of the revenants! "It never needed to breathe in the first place"
I suffocate one of the mind flayers! "It fires a mind blast or makes a tentacle attack! Make a DC 15 Int save. On a failure, you're stunned, and the spell will end"
I suffocate the assassin! "It sneak attacks you for 5d6+3 (20) piercing damage and 7d6 (24) poison damage (DC 15 Con save for half). Make a Con save to concentrate (roughly DC 16 if you took half the poison, or DC 22 if you took it all)
I suffocate the hobgoblin warlord! "About 10 creatures are all about to attack you. Get ready to make a lot of Con saves to concentrate"

[noob]

I did misread the title and saw "axe magic" then there was no axes which disappointed me.
Is axe magic a good idea?

[GalacticAxekick]

I did misread the title and saw "axe magic" then there was no axes which disappointed me.
Is axe magic a good idea?Here's your consolation prize.

Fell
1st level Evocation

Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: Touch
Components: S
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

Touch a handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe or glaive. You charge the weapon with the divine power to fullfill its purpose: to fell the tall and mighty.

The first time the weapon is used to hit a target at least one size category larger than its wielder, it deals an additional 2d8 slashing damage and knocks the target prone. Alternatively, the first time the weapon is used to hit a tree, pillar, or other inanimate structure, it ignore any damage thresholds or resistances that the structure might have and cleaves 5 ft straight into the structure.

In either case, this spell then ends.

Dice
1st level Evocation

Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: Touch
Components: S
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

Touch a melee weapon that deals slashing damage. You charge the weapon with the power to fullfill its purpose: to slice and dice

For the duration, attacks made with the weapon gain advantage. The first time the weapon is used to hit a target, additional gashes appear where the blade never struck, the target takes damage as if it were hit twice, and this spell ends.

For example, an axe could be used to dice a log into a neat pile of firewood; a dagger could be used to slice a spellbook into shreds of confetti; a longsword could be used to slash the wielder's full name, in cursive, into the target's chest; a scythe could be used to cut tall grass at a precise and even height.

[Breccia]

You're going to update Vacuum too, right?

[GalacticAxekick]

You're going to update Vacuum too, right?On the Homebrewery page, I already have. I can post it here if you like. But I'm still waiting to hear back about Suffocate from Yakk, and to hear back about each of my last replies to you, before I make any of these changes final.

There are a few things I dont like about these versions (for example, allowing a number of failed Con saves equal to the target's Con modifier, which gives high Con creatures way too much time. And allowing the initial Con save, which lets creatures avoid the whole thing passively).

I might edit them out (making unconsciousness come after exactly 2 failed saves, and removing the initial Con save). But first I want to hear back about the current versions.

[Goobahfish]

I think the changes to Suffocate and Vacuum make the spells less over-the-top but I get your concern about them not feeling super authentic.

What if they were something akin to:

Make a Strength save to avoid speech loss (I prefer the idea of a strong person having strong lungs).

At the end of X rounds, they make the Con save to avoid passing out.

That way, it has pretty good utility as a single target silence (especially vs spellcasters) but it also has the extra 'drown' utility. Failing 3 consecutive con saves is basically impossible (assuming you have a +3 to each at a minimum) but just delaying it until the last one isn't as bad. Moreover you could make it so they continue to make con saves every turn after the strangle period which puts a clock on it.

[Yakk]

I do like "make con saves each turn, 3 success the spell ends, 3 failure you fall unconscious". And get rid of the extra action cost.

My problem remains that "I do nothing but choke a single creature" is boring even if it is balanced. And making it con saves with con bonus count rounds makes optimal use really gamey.

Initial cast. Strength save; on success, spell has no effect. On failure, can't speak and start making con saves at the start of your turn. 3 success spell ends. 3 failure and fall unconscious and start to suffocate (using standard suffocation rules). Concentration, 10 minute duration.

Con saves don't apply if you don't need air. But it still blocks speech even in the undead.

It is a good single-target anti-spellcaster spell, and the choke to death remains usable (if not the core of the balance). By nixing the "burn actions to keep it up", I hope to make it more fun to use as a spell (it already costs concentration). 3 rounds of failed saves is unlikely to happen in a pitched battle, but is plausible to happen out of combat. Subtle spell becomes really fun here.

At higher levels, add additional targets (like hold person).

[GalacticAxekick]

I do like "make con saves each turn, 3 success the spell ends, 3 failure you fall unconscious". [...] Initial cast. Strength save; on success, spell has no effect. On failure, can't speak and start making con saves at the start of your turn. 3 success spell ends. 3 failure and fall unconscious and start to suffocate (using standard suffocation rules). Concentration, 10 minute duration.Not an option, for the aforementioned reason:



I'm definitely open to nerfing the spell, given the powerful combination of utility of offense it offers. But I won't make it yet another "save to end" spell that leaves combat up to the dice rather than player creativity. I love the ticking timer.


And get rid of the extra action cost. My problem remains that "I do nothing but choke a single creature" is boring even if it is balanced. [...] By nixing the "burn actions to keep it up", I hope to make it more fun to use as a spell (it already costs concentration).I'll happily get rid of the action cost!


And making it con saves with con bonus count rounds makes optimal use really gamey.I'll happily reduce the timer from "Con bonus failed saves" to "X failed saves". Preferably 2 failures.


Con saves don't apply if you don't need air. But it still blocks speech even in the undead.Good idea!


It is a good single-target anti-spellcaster spell, and the choke to death remains usable (if not the core of the balance).Not an option, for the aforementioned reason:



As far as 5e is concerned, [...] suffocation is just a ticking timer until unconsciousness. My goal with these spells is to take advantage of that unique mechanic. I'm not really interested in downplaying the timer and adding damage/nerfs to replace or support it.

Getting rid of the extra action cost, requiring a fixed number of failed saves, and guaranteeing the silence effect leaves me with this:

Suffocate
2nd level Transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

Choose a creature within range. You attempt to rip the air from your target's lungs. Your target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be unable to speak for the duration.

At the end of each of its turns for the duration, your target must make an additional Constitution saving throw. After failing two of these saves, your target falls unconscious. Once the target can breathe again, it remains unconscious for 1 minute, until it takes damage, or until a creature uses its action to shake the target awake.

Creatures that do not need air (e.g. fish, frogs, undead and constructs), and creatures with the Hold Breath feature (such as whales and crocodiles) do not need to make additional Constitution saves, but nonetheless cannot speak for the duration.

[GalacticAxekick]

I think the changes to Suffocate and Vacuum make the spells less over-the-top but I get your concern about them not feeling super authentic.

What if [...] at the end of X rounds, they make the Con save to avoid passing out.

That way, it has pretty good utility as a single target silence (especially vs spellcasters) but it also has the extra 'drown' utility. Failing 3 consecutive con saves is basically impossible (assuming you have a +3 to each at a minimum) but just delaying it until the last one isn't as bad. Moreover you could make it so they continue to make con saves every turn after the strangle period which puts a clock on it.I hadn't thought about how unlikely it is to fail several saves in a row. Even with -1 to Con saves, the odds of failing 3 DC 13 saves in a row is 34.3%. With +5 to Con saves, that's 4.3%. The odds of failing two in a row is 49% with -1 Con and 12.2% with +5 Con.

I'll definitely scrap the consecutive saves. For example:

Suffocate
2nd level Transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

Choose a creature within range. You attempt to rip the air from your target's lungs. Your target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be able to speak only falteringly for the duration.

At the end of its next turn, your target becomes completely unable to speak as your stranglehold grows tighter. And the end of its following turn, your target falls unconscious. Once the target can breathe again, it remains unconscious for 1 minute, until it takes damage, or until a creature uses its action to shake the target awake.

Creatures that do not need air (e.g. fish, frogs, undead and constructs), and creatures with the Hold Breath feature (such as whales and crocodiles) are not knocked unconscious by this spell, but nonetheless lose the ability to speak.

[Goobahfish]

This I think is much closer to a fun spell. ^_^

So they fail the save and they now have a clock to play against as their penalties begin to grow. It also very much distinguishes it from Hold Person as that spell gives you a save each turn until it stops working (at most 2 or 3 turns).

Good work ^_^

[GalacticAxekick]

Awesome! I'll consider Suffocate done and edit Vacuum to match! Thanks!

After that, this project will be just about done, and I'll move on to either water or fire!

[sandmote]

I think you're on to something, but it needs a buff. As it stands, it might be weaker than Tidal Wave I've been mulling this over as I write other things, and the only things I've been able to come up with are dealing damage on a save and knocking creatures prone after they're pushed.

3d6 + damage from being shoved into things might be reasonably balanced with the larger area, but both options still feel like the spell will be really similar to Tidal Wave.

[GalacticAxekick]

I've been mulling this over as I write other things, and the only things I've been able to come up with are dealing damage on a save and knocking creatures prone after they're pushed.

3d6 + damage from being shoved into things might be reasonably balanced with the larger area, but both options still feel like the spell will be really similar to Tidal Wave.Here's an idea:

Squall
6th level Evocation

Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 300 ft
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

You command a squall to blow along a line 30 feet tall, 30 feet wide and 100 feet long within range.

Immediately when you begin casting this spell, gentle wind begins to blow from the start of the line to the end of it. When you finish casting this spell at the start of your next turn, the breeze explodes into a violent squall, which roars across the line for the duration.

The squall has the following effects:
It is lightly obscured by mist and dust.
It deafens any creatures in its area.
It extinguishes unprotected flames in its area.
It hedges out any vapor that can be dispersed by wind.
It carries any loose, lightweight materials up and away.
Any creature that starts its turn in the squall or that enters the squall for the first time on its turn falls prone and is pushed 60 feet to the squall's end. A creature can walk or fly against the squall, reducing the distance they are pushed by 1 foot for every 1 foot that they spend. And a creature that is not pushed at all does not fall prone.

A creature with total cover against the squall is not pushed by it. When a creature starts its turn behind partial cover or enters partial cover for the first time on its turn, it can make a Dexterity saving throw with a –5 penalty, and treats the cover as full cover on a success.

Finally, a creature that is attached to a secure object is not pushed by the squall. When a creature starts its turn within reach of a secure object or reaches a secure object for the first time on its turn, it can make a Strength saving throw, and clings to that object on a success.

Still some things missing. Squall SHOULD make ranged attacks difficult or impossible, and should throw objects hard enough to deal damage. I just wanted to get the basic concept out: you have 1 round to take cover, escape, or stop the spell from casting before the no-save wind either locks you in place or throws you away.

[sandmote]

I'd reduce the distance pushed to 30 feet just to keep the spell from singlehandedly ending most forms of combat, but yeah, that's probably a much better direction to take the spell.

Otherwise, objects blown away should probably deal damage once when the spell starts, and then have all been cleared from the area. Add something about objects thrown into the area of the spell being blown too randomly to serve as an additional attack, maybe.

[GalacticAxekick]

I'd reduce the distance pushed to 30 feet just to keep the spell from singlehandedly ending most forms of combat, but yeah, that's probably a much better direction to take the spell.Ending most forms of combat is the point. It's supposed to be a big enough threat that you take the one round you have to do something about it... to do something about it.

If it pushes you 30 feet, it doesn't do anything at all:
The PC fighter and the NPC thug are face to face in melee. Every turn they stay exactly where they are standing (using no movement) and use their actions to attack.
When one of them is defeated, the other walks 30 feet (using their movement) to a new target.
Squall rushes across the battlefield.
The PC fighter and the NPC thug are face to face in melee. Every turn they stay exactly where they are standing (using 30 feet of movement) and use their actions to attack.
When one of them is defeated, the other walks 30 feet (using their movement and Dash) to a new target.


Otherwise, objects blown away should probably deal damage once when the spell starts, and then have all been cleared from the area. Add something about objects thrown into the area of the spell being blown too randomly to serve as an additional attack, maybe.Good idea!

[Breccia]

On the Homebrewery page, I already have.

I should have checked there first. Thanks!