Spelljammer interview confirms that Wildspace fades into the Astral Sea

[Millstone85]

https://youtu.be/wey7sgBplp4

"When you are on a world and you look up at the night sky, what you are looking at is basically Wildspace. And if you can figure out some way to get from there to up there, then you can experience that setting. And the way you usually do that, of course, is you hop on a ship that is space worthy and you head off into there.

As soon as you leave your world, you are now in Wildspace. And you can go across Wildspace to other worlds in the same system as the world that you were in. Or, if you go far enough, you can actually come to the edge of what is called a wildspace system and it starts becoming a little hazy and silvery. There is sort of a mystical silvery void that begins to surround you and distant stars shine through that void, sort of beckoning you.

And if you cross that veil into that silver void, you have just moved from Wildspace into what we call the Astral Sea."

So gone are the days of crystal spheres and the phlogiston. But that's alright, in my opinion, it works. I am just going to ignore Perkins' next sentence.

"And these two things together are part and parcel of what most D&D players call the Astral Plane."

If you are going to gut the Material Plane like that (it is more a collection of material planes now) at least let it keep Wildspace. :smalltongue:

[Unoriginal]

Isn't Wildspace the phlogiston/the thing filled with the phlogiston?



"And these two things together are part and parcel of what most D&D players call the Astral Plane."

If you are going to gut the Material Plane like that (it is more a collection of material planes now) at least let it keep Wildspace. :smalltongue:

Pretty sure Perkins misspoke here. He sometime does that (like everyone else, of course).

[Dr.Samurai]

Isn't Wildspace the phlogiston?
No Wildspace is like our outer space. It's normally inside of the Crystal Spheres.

The spheres used to float in the phlogiston. That doesn't appear to be the case anymore.

[Unoriginal]

No Wildspace is like our outer space. It's normally inside of the Crystal Spheres.

The spheres used to float in the phlogiston. That doesn't appear to be the case anymore.

Thanks, I get it now.

[Millstone85]

Pretty sure Perkins misspoke here. He sometime does that (like everyone else, of course).Should this text be blue? Anyway, his statement seems to align with the map shown in the video.

https://i.imgur.com/pa5fh1c.png
Also, I see astral dominions. Well, if 5e brought back the Elemental Planes but kept the 4e Elemental Chaos, I suppose that 5e might as well bring back the Outer Planes yet keep the 4e astral dominions.

[Unoriginal]

Should this text be blue?

No? I recall Perkins mixing up names in interviews. Which is normal when you're often talking about nearly 50 years of lore + the new stuff you've been involved in writing.



https://i.imgur.com/pa5fh1c.png
Also, I see astral dominions. Well, if 5e brought back the Elemental Planes but kept the 4e Elemental Chaos, I suppose that 5e might as well bring back the Outer Planes yet keep the 4e astral dominions.

Uh, so there is no longer a Material Plane. Weird.

[Envyus]

The Material Plane still exists it’s just broken up.

[ftafp]

Uh, so there is no longer a Material Plane. Weird.

no unified one anyway. It seems each material plane is its own distinct thing, which raises the question why something like dream of blue veil is needed to plane shift to a different one

[Phhase]

Crystal spheres and phlogiston were so unneeded and extra to me anyway. I don't need an abstract justification for making crossover episodes to be written into the fabric of reality. I've always preferred treating the Material plane as far larger than the cosmology might suggest, more akin to how it exists in life: an entire multiverse, anchored to a single planet, in an endless infinity of the unknown. Yes, the great wheel and all the god's attention revolves around this one single planet in one single system. But that's not all there is out there. There are other planets, other systems, other galaxies, other...things, far beyond the purview of what the gods understand.

[Millstone85]

I have these theories about the workings of wildspace systems. I hope they will be confirmed or refuted by the release.

The ethereal shore of a material world extends all the way to the edge of its wildspace system. It is thus possible to successfully cast etherealness in Wildspace. Some spelljamming ships can even phase out Romulan-style.
Going through the edge of a wildspace system while on its ethereal shore brings you not to the Astral Sea but to the Deep Ethereal.
Each wildspace system possesses its individual fey and shadow echoes. Going through the edge of a wildspace echo brings you not to the Astral Sea but to one of the Energy Planes: the Positive for fey wildspace and the Negative for shadow wildspace.

Edit: I don't have high hopes but I put the question on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Stonemill1985/status/1547160227715469312).


No? I recall Perkins mixing up names in interviews. Which is normal when you're often talking about nearly 50 years of lore + the new stuff you've been involved in writing.Alright. I thought that might have been a "No, no, no, they would never change the lore like that". :smallbiggrin:

[Warder]

I really dislike that change, but I've long since made my peace with not having the same vision for D&D as the dev team. I wonder though, will they do anything at all to explain this massive change in lore when it comes to established spheres like Realmspace, or just handwave it?

[Millstone85]

I wonder though, will they do anything at all to explain this massive change in lore when it comes to established spheres like Realmspace, or just handwave it?That's a tough cookie to chew.

I have an idea to make sense of the Spellplague/Sundering in this cosmology, in a way that mostly keeps it a Realmspace-specific event. First, the Outer Planes are massive clusters of astral dominions. Simultaneously, some astral dominions are linked (by the likes of the World Tree or the Celestial Staircase) to specific wildspace systems. When the Spellplague happened, Realmspace's astral dominions got ripped from their Outer Planes and left adrift in the vicinity of Realmspace. One, formerly an abyssal layer, even got thrown into the Elemental Chaos instead. Later, the Sundering brought all these back where they belonged.

But for the disappearance of the phlogiston, I got nothing. Maybe it is best to just hard retcon it.

[Unoriginal]

no unified one anyway. It seems each material plane is its own distinct thing, which raises the question why something like dream of blue veil is needed to plane shift to a different one

Dream of Blue Veil isn't the only way to travel from one world to another, but it makes it significant easier when you don't know the place you're going to.



But for the disappearance of the phlogiston, I got nothing. Maybe it is best to just hard retcon it.

Maybe they'll have a line somewhere in the book going "the Astral Sea, that some space sailors and sages call the phlogiston..." or the like.

[Warder]

That's a tough cookie to chew.

I have an idea to make sense of the Spellplague/Sundering in this cosmology, in a way that mostly keeps it a Realmspace-specific event. First, the Outer Planes are massive clusters of astral dominions. Simultaneously, some astral dominions are linked (by the likes of the World Tree or the Celestial Staircase) to specific wildspace systems. When the Spellplague happened, Realmspace's astral dominions got ripped from their Outer Planes and left adrift in the vicinity of Realmspace. One, formerly an abyssal layer, even got thrown into the Elemental Chaos instead. Later, the Sundering brought all these back where they belonged.

But for the disappearance of the phlogiston, I got nothing. Maybe it is best to just hard retcon it.

It also begs the question, what are stars in the new paradigm? Can you see other bits of the material plane THROUGH the Astral Plane and that's what stars are now? Or something else?

[Keravath]

I would have preferred an infinite series of universes composing the prime material plane with the ethereal linking all of these prime material universes and at another level the astral plane/sea interconnecting the prime material, ethereal and all of the other outer planes. Keep stars as stars and magic as an intrinsic feature of the different universes (perhaps with different levels of magic). Gods might be represented on one or more "prime material shards" but they would originate from another plane or planes connected via the astral plane.

Spell jammers would be able to traverse the "Astral sea" between other planes as well as the different shards of the prime material plane.

The only real difference between what they present and this approach is that each "Wildspace system" would be a complete universe rather than just a single solar system. Exploration of space would then not automatically lead to the discovery of other wildspace systems and the astral sea. This would support having both fantasy and technology based worlds of the prime material next to each other. Only civilizations that discovered the astral sea or the ethereal plane would be able to travel between prime material shards.

In addition, having an infinite prime material plane leaves many options for eternal conflicts between creatures of the outer planes fighting for influence on the prime material shards.

[Envyus]

no unified one anyway. It seems each material plane is its own distinct thing, which raises the question why something like dream of blue veil is needed to plane shift to a different one
Cause it's still the Material Plane even if an alternate one. Still Spelljamming over can be done instead.

[Envyus]

I really dislike that change, but I've long since made my peace with not having the same vision for D&D as the dev team. I wonder though, will they do anything at all to explain this massive change in lore when it comes to established spheres like Realmspace, or just handwave it?

What do you dislike about it.



In addition, having an infinite prime material plane leaves many options for eternal conflicts between creatures of the outer planes fighting for influence on the prime material shards.

That does not change with the current system.

[Millstone85]

It also begs the question, what are stars in the new paradigm? Can you see other bits of the material plane THROUGH the Astral Plane and that's what stars are now? Or something else?Stars could remain what they used to be, which is to say anything from luminous areas of the firmament to gargantuan fireflies living on it.

They could also be visible from the outside, and from a distance a wildspace system would appear as a single light in the Astral Sea.

Then there would be stars that travel the Astral Sea and affix themselves to various firmaments, including the aberrant stars with which neogi warlocks make pacts.

[Warder]

What do you dislike about it.

Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston are large parts of why Spelljammer has always been so appealing to me. The first mate calling out "Flow stations!" to get the crew to snuff out all the lights, pack away everything that can produce a flame and gather up material components for fire spells is such an evocative image, and that's just scratching the surface of it all. My first experience with Spelljammer was reading the Cloakmaster Cycle novels, and replacing the incredible setting described in those books with the most boring plane, the Astral, is baffling to me.

Buuut I don't buy 5e books anymore anyway, so it's all the same, really. If I ever run Spelljammer in 5e it'll be with the old setting.

[Millstone85]

The first mate calling out "Flow stations!" to get the crew to snuff out all the lights, pack away everything that can produce a flame and gather up material components for fire spells is such an evocative image, and that's just scratching the surface of it all.Speaking of "the Flow", wasn't the only flowing part of it these river-like currents? I suppose they could exist in the Astral Sea, flammability and all.

Now, the Astral already lets you travel at the speed of thought. But nah, mind speed is too slow (https://youtu.be/ygE01sOhzz0).

[Warder]

Speaking of "the Flow", wasn't the only flowing part of it these river-like currents? I suppose they could exist in the Astral Sea, flammability and all.

Now, the Astral already lets you travel at the speed of thought. But nah, mind speed is too slow (https://youtu.be/ygE01sOhzz0).

I was 100% sure of what that link would lead to before I clicked it, haha :)

And yeah, the flow-rivers are why the Flow is called the Flow. But I doubt they will be adapted to the Astral Plane - I sincerely don't understand why people would even spelljam through the Astral Plane. It seems like a much slower and far more dangerous and complex method than other ways to traverse the Astral, unless I'm missing something.

[Segev]

Does 5e have ways beyond an eighth or ninth level spell to easily / safely traverse the astral plane?

Phlostigon's association with only fire always bugged me, but I did prefer it and the crystal spheres to using the astral for this. However, I do not think spelljamming is automatically too hard and slow and arduous compared to already-extant methods as long as it's available to much lower-level characters.

[Millstone85]

I sincerely don't understand why people would even spelljam through the Astral Plane. It seems like a much slower and far more dangerous and complex method than other ways to traverse the Astral, unless I'm missing something.Here is what comes to mind.



Method
Pros
Cons


Casting plane shift twice.

Can take between 12 seconds and 8 hours, depending on available spellcasters.
Lets you skip hostile encounters.


7th-level spell.
Limited to 9 creatures and what they can carry.
Some randomness in the destination, unless you know a teleportation circle.


Casting dream of the blue veil.

Takes 6 hours and 10 minutes.
Lets you skip hostile encounters
Specifically targets a safe location.

7th-level spell.
Limited to 9 creatures and what they can carry.
Requires a magic item or a willing creature from the destination world.



Casting astral projection.

None.


9th-level spell.
Consumes 1,100 gp worth of jacinth and silver, per creature.
Limited to 9 creatures and what they can carry.
Takes 1 hour of casting followed by 1d4 x 10 hours of travel, during which your material body is unconscious.
Depending on where exactly the Astral ends, could leave you adrift in wildspace or drop you in the upper atmosphere of a world.



Spelljamming.

Allows for many passengers and the transport of goods.
If you then want to explore wildspace and its worlds, you have already brought your flying ship.



You need a spelljamming ship.
Takes 1d4 x 10 hours of travel in the Astral, plus undefined time through wildspace.

[Segev]

It does kind-of sound like they royally screwed up the astral projection spell in 5e. Too high a level for what it does compared to other spells now. In 3e, the high level was justified by it being the safest form of planar travel.

[Tanarii]

Between Spelljammer and Dragonlance for 5e, I now don't want to see Dark Sun for 5e.

[Envyus]

Astral Projection is still mostly safe.


Between Spelljammer and Dragonlance for 5e, I now don't want to see Dark Sun for 5e.

Why neither is out yet and you have not even seen them.

[Lord Torath]

I also really loved the crystal shells and the phlogiston. Heck, ships' crews weren't considered veterans until they'd had at least one trip through the phlo.

To be perfectly honest, I can't see what people had against crystal shells, other than the fact that they are radically different from the outer space we have in the real world. I loved the fact that they explained how you could have different rules in different settings. How the constellations in Krynn can rapidly shift without affecting the nighttime sky on Toril or Oerth. How you can have The Time of Troubles and the Spellplague on Toril have zero affect on Oerth and Eberon. And I rather liked the flammable nature of the phlo.

So now we have crystal shells without the crystal shell. Fly out far enough in Wildspace and you're now in the phlo astral sea. Stars are still whatever they were before, except instead of being on the inside of the crystal shell, they're on the surface of the Firmament? And that's better... how?

[Millstone85]

Stars are still whatever they were before, except instead of being on the inside of the crystal shell, they're on the surface of the Firmament?That was only speculation on my part.

[Envyus]

I also really loved the crystal shells and the phlogiston. Heck, ships' crews weren't considered veterans until they'd had at least one trip through the phlo.

To be perfectly honest, I can't see what people had against crystal shells, other than the fact that they are radically different from the outer space we have in the real world. I loved the fact that they explained how you could have different rules in different settings. How the constellations in Krynn can rapidly shift without affecting the nighttime sky on Toril or Oerth. How you can have The Time of Troubles and the Spellplague on Toril have zero affect on Oerth and Eberon. And I rather liked the flammable nature of the phlo.

So now we have crystal shells without the crystal shell. Fly out far enough in Wildspace and you're now in the phlo astral sea. Stars are still whatever they were before, except instead of being on the inside of the crystal shell, they're on the surface of the Firmament? And that's better... how?

The Astral Plane is more interesting than the Phlogiston.

[Segev]

The Astral Plane is more interesting than the Phlogiston.

Why/how so?

[Millstone85]

The Astral Plane is more interesting than the Phlogiston.
Why/how so?To someone not so familiar with the phlogiston, like me, it does give the impression of being a place where you would find nothing but spelljammers zipping their way to more interesting locations.

Whereas I know the Astral is not only a transitive plane but also the graveyard of the gods. They float there as giant petrified corpses on which githyanki and others build cities. They may still grant spells as vestiges, and fragments of them sometimes turn into new creatures.

[Segev]

To someone not so familiar with the phlogiston, like me, it does give the impression of being a place where you would find nothing but spelljammers zipping their way to more interesting locations.

Whereas I know the Astral is not only a transitive plane but also the graveyard of the gods. They float there as giant petrified corpses on which githyanki and others build cities. They may still grant spells as vestiges, and fragments of them sometimes turn into new creatures.

I do'nt know much about phlostigon, either, but it strikes me as something where encounters will be more interesting due to the alien rules of the environment.

[Tanarii]

Why neither is out yet and you have not even seen them.
But what they have shown is a drastic revamping of both settings.

Which is totally fine for newer players, they should get settings that fit the current zeitgeist. My problem is when they steal an existing setting to do it, and update not just the rules but core Lore. I'd rather they just design a new one.

I'll add Ravenloft to the list of setting that they ported forward with a drastic revamp. Forgotten Realms technically too, otoh FR has been revamped drastically for every edition, so poor FR fans should be inured to it by now.

[Telok]

I do'nt know much about phlostigon, either, but it strikes me as something where encounters will be more interesting due to the alien rules of the environment.

The phlo explosive/flammable nature changed some fights dramatically. Anything fire immune was extremely dangerous & fire spells were generally the best damage spells in the game at the time. Anyone who could rig remote ignition had an advantage if they were willing to damage wooden ships and spells didn't work for ignition due to an immediate detonation clause.

You couldn't suffocate in the phlo. Instead you went into a weird stasis that lasted until you hit air or entered a crystal sphere. This actually opens lots of interesting possibilities for lost beings & avoiding TPKs. No reason the bodies of dead gods are restricted to any one plane, they could turn up in the phlo too if that was anything but background fluff.

Nothing prevented building anything in the phlo. In theory a decanter of endless water could create a literal waterworld outside the spheres. In fact there wasn't even any restrictions on towing asteroid fortresses out there, or even complete worlds floating outside crystal spheres. You just aren't using a lot of fire when cooking.

Extra planar stuff explicitly does not work in the phlo. Annoyed that you can't keep something with innate plane shifting, teleports, or summoning as a prisoner? Stick it outside a crystal sphere. Rope trick & bags of holding? No use out there.

The astral being "timeless" has always been weird. Not sure if that's still a thing in 5e but it played merry havoc with logic & what did or didn't wear off or heal after a while. The assorted spot rulings I came across people making never made any sense or had any consistency. Basically "astral" has so much word & setting baggage that I have no decent idea what the d&d "astral" is supposed to be anymore. Just that its silver cords, color pools, and random unassociated junk that makes no sense.

[Envyus]

The phlo explosive/flammable nature changed some fights dramatically. Anything fire immune was extremely dangerous & fire spells were generally the best damage spells in the game at the time. Anyone who could rig remote ignition had an advantage if they were willing to damage wooden ships and spells didn't work for ignition due to an immediate detonation clause.

You couldn't suffocate in the phlo. Instead you went into a weird stasis that lasted until you hit air or entered a crystal sphere. This actually opens lots of interesting possibilities for lost beings & avoiding TPKs. No reason the bodies of dead gods are restricted to any one plane, they could turn up in the phlo too if that was anything but background fluff.

Nothing prevented building anything in the phlo. In theory a decanter of endless water could create a literal waterworld outside the spheres. In fact there wasn't even any restrictions on towing asteroid fortresses out there, or even complete worlds floating outside crystal spheres. You just aren't using a lot of fire when cooking.

Extra planar stuff explicitly does not work in the phlo. Annoyed that you can't keep something with innate plane shifting, teleports, or summoning as a prisoner? Stick it outside a crystal sphere. Rope trick & bags of holding? No use out there.

The astral being "timeless" has always been weird. Not sure if that's still a thing in 5e but it played merry havoc with logic & what did or didn't wear off or heal after a while. The assorted spot rulings I came across people making never made any sense or had any consistency. Basically "astral" has so much word & setting baggage that I have no decent idea what the d&d "astral" is supposed to be anymore. Just that its silver cords, color pools, and random unassociated junk that makes no sense.

So the thing about the Phlogiston is that along with a bunch of a stuff not working there which can be annoying, you can barely see, there is no gravity (Your Water World and building things would not work there as a result, plus unless you want to be in the dark going inside something is pointless). But the bigger thing is that by default there is nothing there, no creatures are native to it, and there are no worlds or objects in there by default.

The Astral Plane is timeless in that creatures don't age, require food or sleep there, they still heal. This has long been the case. The Astral unlike the Phlogiston also has things in it by default. Dead Gods, Githyanki, Astral Dreadnaughts, Color Pools, Astral Dominions, and other various things. Simply put by default it's more interesting than the empty Phlogiston.

[Warder]

So the thing about the Phlogiston is that along with a bunch of a stuff not working there which can be annoying, you can barely see, there is no gravity (Your Water World and building things would not work there as a result, plus unless you want to be in the dark going inside something is pointless). But the bigger thing is that by default there is nothing there, no creatures are native to it, and there are no worlds or objects in there by default.

This is not true. Look up things like the Lumineux or the Great Father and his Flowfiends. There are things in the Flow, and the Flow is not constant either - there's stuff like the Dark Regions and vast uncharted regions away from flowrivers. It's mostly empty, but the same can be said for the Astral Plane, and there's plenty of opportunity to run into adventure in the Flow itself.

[Telok]

The whole gravity plane thing that keeps spelljamming ships from being 100% zero-g all the time is also in effect in the phlistogon. So yeah, building & walking around on stuff works the same as in wildspace.

Now, that could go all wankadoodle with the rewrite/retcon. But in all previous versions there's no prohibition on hauling asteroids, ice bergs, and trees out of a crystal sphere to make your own little moon. Nothing saying the philostogon is totally empty & ininhabitable. While phlo native critters were rare they do exist.

[Millstone85]

Basically "astral" has so much word & setting baggage that I have no decent idea what the d&d "astral" is supposed to be anymore. Just that its silver cords, color pools, and random unassociated junk that makes no sense.It may still make sense to me, hopefully.

My favourite introduction to the Astral, and its relation to the Outer Planes, was provided in OotS#1138 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).

First, the Astral is a transitive plane. Or as Thor puts it "an endless expanse of weightless nothing that people mostly use only to get from one plane to another". That, I think, is a trait it shares with the Deep Ethereal and to an extent with the Phlogiston. Nonetheless, all those are also home to certain creatures. Sadly, my goofle-fu is failing me regarding the Phlogiston's "lumineux" that Warder mentioned.

Then, the Astral's particuliar brand of weightless nothing is made of thoughts. This aligns well with the 5e DMG's statement that "a storm of thought that batters travelers' minds rather than their bodies, a psychic wind is made up of lost memories, forgotten ideas, minor musings, and subconscious fears that went astray in the Astral Plane and conglomerated into this powerful force". In the comic, Thor describes a different type of psychic agglomeration, explaining the Outer Planes as "ideas that were so powerful, for better or worse, that they became places".

Finally, the Astral has the psychopompic (psychopompal? psychopompous?) function to bring souls to the Outer Planes. As Thor says, "The spirits of people who believe those things strongly are drawn to them, and help make the plane itself".


No reason the bodies of dead gods are restricted to any one plane, they could turn up in the phlo too if that was anything but background fluff.Knowing these things about the Astral, and that Planescape portrayed the D&D gods as being empowered and shaped by mortal faith, I think it is most thematic for divine corpses to be found in the Astral. They are like petrified thought patterns or something of that nature.

Moving on to the Astral's relation with the Material, it has long been clear that:

the Astral connects the Material to the Outer Planes, like the Ethereal connects the Material to the Inner Planes.
the Astral has no color pools to the Inner Planes, like the Ethereal has neither curtains nor borders with the Outer Planes.

Now it seems that astral color pools to the Material have become spherical, giving a clearer impression of containing a region of the Material within. And whoever tries to leave that region ends up passing through that veil.

What throws a wrench in my "makes sense with what we knew" narrative is how it appears that the Astral Sea is no longer the whole of the Astral Plane. I now have to account for Wildspace counting as another part of the Astral Plane. But I think I have a way out. Perhaps Wildspace is now akin to a "Border Astral", overlapping the Material in a way that is different yet similar to what the Border Ethereal does.

I really really wonder if it is still possible to cast etherealness in Wildspace, or if an astral dreadnought can now enter Wildspace. My guess is yes to the former and no the latter.

[Naanomi]

The Astral Plane is more interesting than the Phlogiston.
They are not mutually exclusive, you can have both

[Millstone85]

I wonder though, will they do anything at all to explain this massive change in lore when it comes to established spheres like Realmspace, or just handwave it?Going back to that, I just got an idea.


They are not mutually exclusive, you can have bothWhat if the gods were so annoyed with the Phlogiston that they decided to coat the inside of known crystal spheres with astral mists?

Now it looks like wildspace systems are shell-less and the Phlogiston is gone, but some spelljammers know the truth and are looking for ways to bypass the astral mists.

[Naanomi]

What if the gods were so annoyed with the Phlogiston that they decided to coat the inside of known crystal spheres with astral mists?
I'm not sure the Gods would have that kind of power for the most part

[Millstone85]

I'm not sure the Gods would have that kind of power for the most partThe gods of the gods, then, though still in the interest of the latter.

Perhaps there were too many Athar enclaves being built in the Flow.

[NCat]

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of the phlo being removed and replaced with the astral, since I feel it makes the universe just have less stuff in it. Like, sure the astral is also an empty space place, but is a different empty space place, a transitory place between planes. While like, the phlo was this whole other place you had to use a spelljammer to get to, which I feel makes the place and spelljammers cooler since its much harder to get to.

Like, I dunno, just being able to use a planeshift to get to the astral, and then get to another world from there, feels a bit off.

Admittedly, I haven't played in a spelljammer game, but the setting that my DM uses utilizes the lore of it, and like, running into an NPC who has actually made it out of the crystal sphere, or hearing that someone has a spelljammer, is really damn cool.

Ill also say I was never the biggest fan of the Dream of the Blue Veil spell either, it just felt too easy I guess?


But yeah, my biggest gripe is that, the lore for the astral exists and works, as does the lore on spheres and the phlo, but from what we're seeing so far with them making the spheres and phlo also the astral, it just feels confusing and less clear, as well as making the idea of travelling through worlds feel a bit less special.

[Naanomi]

There are things that are going to reconcile weirdly I think...

1) The phlogiston was divorced from the Gods and spiritual things, allowing space cultures to develop divergent from those in spheres. Imperial elves had little ties to Corellon, Spelljamming dwarves treated Moradin like an actual living progenitor in their system of ancestor worship. Now Spelljamming is happening in the Gods' backdoor and celestials/fiends/etc are expected to be relatively common encounters.

2) Why are so many Spelljamming races suddenly in the Astral? Some just seem odd there (Neogi, Kreen); but some are downright hostile conceptually. Illithid had a strong Spelljamming present... Which is now in the Githyanki stronghold? Beholders were a central Spelljamming race... Whose origin story is now tied to Astral Dreadnoughts or something yet are somehow back in the Astral?

3) Githyanki are now a central Spelljamming race I guess? Those Gith pirates that abandoned their subspecies' animosity and gave up the quest to kill Illithid on the flow are just... Gone or somehow thriving in the Githyanki base of operations?

4) Spelljammer was full of sci-fish giant ship threatening monsters... The Astral was full of wayward Outsiders and Psionic/Mental beings. Do we just have both now?

5) What happens to all the spiritual/mental things of the astral? Navigation through confidence? Speed through mental acuity? All just gone under the physical Spelljamming model?

[Lord Torath]

So the thing about the Phlogiston is that along with a bunch of a stuff not working there which can be annoying, you can barely see, there is no gravity (Your Water World and building things would not work there as a result, plus unless you want to be in the dark going inside something is pointless). But the bigger thing is that by default there is nothing there, no creatures are native to it, and there are no worlds or objects in there by default.
Wait, where did this stuff come from?

"you can barely see":
Phlogiston is rainbow-colored, glowing, flammable gas. The outer decks of your ship will be plenty bright. The inner decks will be darker, but that's what light and continual light spells (and portholes!) are for. The only thing I've read about it obscuring vision is that by the time you are close enough to a crystal sphere to see it, it looks like a flat wall. As I understand it, the curvature of the earth is visible at about 60 - 70,000 feet (SR-71 Blackbird cruising altitude). The earth is roughly 7,900 miles in diameter, or 41,851,000 feet. That's a distance-to-diameter ratio of about 600. A crystal sphere is on the order of hundreds of millions to billions of miles in diameter, which means that you need to be at least 50,000 to 500,000 miles away to see it as curved. That's the upper limit of how far you can see in the phlo, but I'd be more likely to limit it to 250 miles, which is about how far you can see through Earth's atmosphere at sea level before everything fades to blue (you know, assuming there was 250 miles of sea-level atmosphere in a straight line for you to look through).

"there is no gravity":
Gravity works the same way both inside and outside of crystal spheres. Grubbian (named after Jeff Grubb, one of the creators of Spelljammer) physics says that any object about 25' or larger exerts a force of 1 G toward it, unless it's in the atmosphere of a larger body. Crystal Shells have no gravity in and of themselves, so you can't walk on the surface of one: you'll push yourself off the surface with your first step. But your spelljamming ship will provide the same gravity whether you're in the phlo or inside a crystal sphere.

"there is nothing there":
Lost Ships has many things in the phlo. One of the adventure hooks features pirates who have a stash of equipment on some planetoids in the phlo, which means there are rocky bodies out there (I was mistaken - it's in a debris-filled sphere nearby). Mysterious spindle-shaped metal 'stars' called Flow Beacons can be found there (someone claims to have seen one light up with lines of flashing lights when the Spelljammer passed it). Ephemerals are the ghosts of people who have died in the phlo. 'Davies' are people (or creatures) who have run out of air in the phlo and gone into suspended animation, and can be revived by bring them into a breathable atmosphere. Many spelljammer monsters can create portals through a crystal sphere, and can thus be found in the phlo (as can any other creatures that might follow them). The Spelljammer itself can frequently be found there. It might not be as full of stuff as Wildspace is, but it's certainly not empty.

[Millstone85]

Beholders were a central Spelljamming race... Whose origin story is now tied to Astral Dreadnoughts or something yet are somehow back in the Astral?I have no idea what you are talking about, unless perhaps you are remembering my joke headcanon that an astral dreadnought is actually the distorted projection of an eye of the deep, complete with two tiny eyestalks hiding somewhere on its head.


What happens to all the spiritual/mental things of the astral? Navigation through confidence? Speed through mental acuity? All just gone under the physical Spelljamming model?My guess is that it will play on the confidence and mental acuity of whoever is at the spelljamming helm.


"you can barely see":
Phlogiston is rainbow-colored, glowing, flammable gas. The outer decks of your ship will be plenty bright. The inner decks will be darker, but that's what light and continual light spells (and portholes!) are for. The only thing I've read about it obscuring vision is that by the time you are close enough to a crystal sphere to see it, it looks like a flat wall.
I'd be more likely to limit it to 250 miles, which is about how far you can see through Earth's atmosphere at sea level before everything fades to blue (you know, assuming there was 250 miles of sea-level atmosphere in a straight line for you to look through).Interesting. I myself had assumed "the Rainbow Ocean" to be a blinding swirl of colors.

[Lord Torath]

There's nothing about ship-to-ship combat being any different in the phlo than in wildspace (other than fire effects being much more terrifying), so I always assumed that phlogiston is dim in small amounts. It will illuminate things when there's a lot of it, but in the quantities you'd get in, say a 10'x10' room, you'd only get very dim illumination. I remember reading something along those lines, but it's been a while, and my memory has been known to play tricks on me before. Time for a refresher!
Edit: Per the Concordance of Arcane Space (from the original Spelljammer: Adventures in Space boxed set), the inside of a ship in the phlo will be dark, unless lit with naturally glowing lights (fireflies, glowing moss or moths) or magical lights (bottom of page 10, second column).

I searched through Lost Ships for the planetoid in the flow and found I was mistaken, and the planetoid was inside a crystal sphere. But...
Ships in the Flow slow down when they encounter other bodies, such as ships and rogue planets...So there are still rogue planets in the Phlo.

[PattThe]

Should this text be blue? Anyway, his statement seems to align with the map shown in the video.

https://i.imgur.com/pa5fh1c.png
Also, I see astral dominions. Well, if 5e brought back the Elemental Planes but kept the 4e Elemental Chaos, I suppose that 5e might as well bring back the Outer Planes yet keep the 4e astral dominions.

Graphic design is my passion.

[Naanomi]

I have no idea what you are talking about, unless perhaps you are remembering my joke headcanon that an astral dreadnought is actually the distorted projection of an eye of the deep, complete with two tiny eyestalks hiding somewhere on its head.
I recall it being mentioned somewhere (I thought in Volo's) that the original beholders on each world are created when Astral Dreadnaughts peer through Astral Portals to those worlds and their will manifests into a Beholder... but I'll be honest when I tried to find an exact page number and wasn't able to find what I was looking for so... maybe I am misremembering?

[Segev]

Graphic design is my passion.

What's that got to do with what you quoted? Could you elaborate, please?

[ProsecutorGodot]

What's that got to do with what you quoted? Could you elaborate, please?

It's a meme, I think the intent is to poke fun at the attached image.

Not really sure how you could better present and label an image meant to convey what is essentially floating solar systems in a vast and nearly empty void space.

[Telok]

It's a meme, I think the intent is to poke fun at the attached image.

Not really sure how you could better present and label an image meant to convey what is essentially floating solar systems in a vast and nearly empty void space.

Well compared to some of the SJ maps of the flow out there that one's basically a few clip art tokens slapped on a bland swirly nondescript background. Its information content is pretty close to zero.

Here's a pretty basic verson of one that's just spheres & flows and a few hazards.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/spaes-map.jpg

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well compared to some of the SJ maps of the flow out there that one's basically a few clip art tokens slapped on a bland swirly nondescript background. Its information content is pretty close to zero.

Here's a pretty basic verson of one that's just spheres & flows and a few hazards.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/spaes-map.jpg

And it conveys about all the information it needs to. You have wildspace and between those spaces is nothing filled Astral Sea, except when it isn't. If indeed there is a need for a more detailed map I'm sure it can/will be made.

[PattThe]

WOTC loves their world axis cosmology. Make the astral plane a sea, scatter divine realms in the soup, say that's what the stars in the night sky are.
Seriously. You don't age in the astral. What, you get to live forever if you go a certain number of feet above the planet's surface? Well? How high up? At what point headed vertically off a fantasy world does CP want us to be considered on another plane of existence? What made spelljammer so good was that it was the material plane, that no astral bs was going on. That was a physical real world. Now, what, your alarm clock is a theoretical construct if you chuck it out the window when flying at barely sub-orbital velocities?

[Millstone85]

You don't age in the astral. What, you get to live forever if you go a certain number of feet above the planet's surface? Well? How high up?As it happens, that question just got answered by Crawford in a video on the astral elves. Or rather, the converse, when does the clock start ticking again? And that's when you move from the Astral Sea to Wildspace.


At what point headed vertically off a fantasy world does CP want us to be considered on another plane of existence?They are advertising the product as an exploration of the Astral Plane, now divided between the Sea and Wildspace, but I have a strong suspicion that Wildspace will turn out to be part of the Material Plane for all practical purposes.

[Telok]

And it conveys about all the information it needs to. You have wildspace and between those spaces is nothing filled Astral Sea, except when it isn't. If indeed there is a need for a more detailed map I'm sure it can/will be made.

The point is the given pic conveys to me that they're doing ****ing useless clip art tokens on a background and passing it off as a anything. Its a piss poor effort that I've seen outdone by kids with colored pencils.

The astral was supposed to be an infinite & fluid realm of ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Thats why all the silver cords, forming new bodies on new worlds, sorta-kinda-maybe-time, and "speed of will" jank exist for it. Are we turning it into just another generic empty ocean map?

It is, to me a signal that the "flatten, simplify to binary, & make everything generic" style of writing content & rules is being applied to SJ. Crystal spheres & the flow were "complicated" so just yank them & turn it into a generic ocean & islands type setting with space paint on it. I'd bet air & different gravity are too complicated too so those get dropped or handwaved like arrows & food do. I'm not seeing "lets take this thing full of ideas & bring it up to modern design & art", I'm feeling more of another Forgettable Realms reboot & retcon with throwing out anything more difficult than "go from point A to point B with the daily xp budget of level appropriate generic fights along the way".

I would like to be wrong, but the recent track record of design, writing, & art does not fill me with confidence.

[Millstone85]

The astral was supposed to be an infinite & fluid realm of ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Thats why all the silver cords, forming new bodies on new worlds, sorta-kinda-maybe-time, and "speed of will" jank exist for it. Are we turning it into just another generic empty ocean map?Oh dear, do I have bad news for you.

Segev is right, they did royally screw astral projection in this edition.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The point is the given pic conveys to me that they're doing ****ing useless clip art tokens on a background and passing it off as a anything. Its a piss poor effort that I've seen outdone by kids with colored pencils.

The astral was supposed to be an infinite & fluid realm of ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Thats why all the silver cords, forming new bodies on new worlds, sorta-kinda-maybe-time, and "speed of will" jank exist for it. Are we turning it into just another generic empty ocean map?

It is, to me a signal that the "flatten, simplify to binary, & make everything generic" style of writing content & rules is being applied to SJ. Crystal spheres & the flow were "complicated" so just yank them & turn it into a generic ocean & islands type setting with space paint on it. I'd bet air & different gravity are too complicated too so those get dropped or handwaved like arrows & food do. I'm not seeing "lets take this thing full of ideas & bring it up to modern design & art", I'm feeling more of another Forgettable Realms reboot & retcon with throwing out anything more difficult than "go from point A to point B with the daily xp budget of level appropriate generic fights along the way".

I would like to be wrong, but the recent track record of design, writing, & art does not fill me with confidence.

So we're just pretending now that this picture is the end all be all indication of the entire design of the Astral Sea and Wildspace? You realize there's going to be an entire book to go with this picture right?

[Millstone85]

So we're just pretending now that this picture is the end all be all indication of the entire design of the Astral Sea and Wildspace? You realize there's going to be an entire book to go with this picture right?To be precise, there will be three (thin) books and a DM screen...https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRpeRtVXIAIVo3F?format=png
https://i.imgur.com/pa5fh1cl.png

[ProsecutorGodot]

To be precise, there will be three (thin) books and a DM screen...https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRpeRtVXIAIVo3F?format=png
https://i.imgur.com/pa5fh1cl.png

They're being sold as a set, as far as I'm aware this is more or less just a reformatting of how some of the previous sourcebooks were released. The lore, monsters and adventure will be separated rather than bundled as they are in Rising from the last war or explorer's guide to wildemount.

[Millstone85]

They're being sold as a set, as far as I'm aware this is more or less just a reformatting of how some of the previous sourcebooks were released. The lore, monsters and adventure will be separated rather than bundled as they are in Rising from the last war or explorer's guide to wildemount.I mostly just wanted to point out where the map was from. Maybe being part of the DM screen is a good reason for it to be simple.

But as for my opinion on the new format:

Rising from the Last War is 320 pages long, including 37 pages of monsters and 15 of adventure.
Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is 300 pages long, including 20 of monsters and 45 of adventure.
The Spelljammer set will total 192 pages, including 64 of monsters and 64 of adventure.

For me, the division makes an already short product appear even shorter. And then a whole third of it will be dedicated to an adventure I would not have bought by itself.

[Warder]

To be precise, there will be three (thin) books and a DM screen...https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRpeRtVXIAIVo3F?format=png
https://i.imgur.com/pa5fh1cl.png

What in the world, how is that image ever useful on the back of a DM screen? I thought it was meant to be an example of the new Spelljammer setting, but apparently it's meant to be a reference image for DMs? For what reason, exactly? "Realmspace", "Dead god", "Wildspace system", what's there to reference?