Need evaluation of a plan to kill the party

[HoboKnight]

Before people say, my plan is not cool: we are playing a high stakes game and my party expects competent opponent. Also, my party is super vigilant and smart and there is a good chance, they will find a way out of this. They are lvl 6: 2 fighters, cleric, barbarian and an artificer.

Party got on a bad side of a powerful cult and one of the clerics wants to kill them. Cultist is smart and has a lot of assets at his disposal, also, he is quite clear on the fact that brute force will not work against the party. So here is the plan:

Cultists henchmen kidnap a child, leaving tracks that lead to a nearby dungeon. Childs mother is super distressed, and it happens cultist guy is nearby. He offers her help - lets find a group of adventurers to get the child back from the dungeon. He leads the mother into the nearest town, to a town inn which happens to have an adventuring party in in. "Look, adventurers," the cultist points the mother to our group of PCs. Mother approaches, pleading them for help. My party, as is, rolls Insights, sees mother is not lying and take the quest. Mother leads them to the dungeon, where child is presumably hiding. Party and possible, the mother, enter the dungeon, start clearing it.

Cultist is observing the entrance from a safe distance. After party enters, cultist calls upon 3 ogres he has nearby and ogres pile up massive rocks onto the entrance (what sort of checks should be made here if party wants to remove the rocks? Basically, how big should rocks be?) As a final touch, cultist uses Decanter of Endless water to slowly flood the dungeon, guarded by 3 ogres outside. After a day dungeon is flooded.

What holes do you see in my plan, if any?

[Batcathat]

I would say the timing is the biggest problem. A trap that takes a day to kill the party leaves a lot of room to survive it. More specifically, I'm wondering how likely it is that the party will spot the giant boulders piled up by the entrance (or are the further away before the party enters? If that's the case the problem might be to quickly get them into position without the party noticing) and how the Decanter is positioned, it seems hard to place it so that it can fill the dungeon without the party being able to mess with it.

[meandean]

What one humanoid can do, another can do. Ogres "only" have Strength 19. An adventuring party, who can help each other on the checks, should be able to move what three ogres moved. There are also possible magical resolutions, depending on what spells they know.

Agreed that, if anything, this situation isn't dangerous enough. You want to get the players in the position where they think they have to choose between the sure thing of saving themselves before the chamber floods, vs. the risk of attempting to save the child and possibly drowning in the process. Of course, you shouldn't actually kill them if they choose to try to save the child. But that would be the tension here.

You can inform your cleric at the beginning of the day that they mysteriously have create or destroy water prepared, even if they didn't intend to prepare it. Then, once they get to the entrance, have a ticking clock situation where the cleric has to destroy the water coming in (or can choose to do something else like cast guidance -- but then the water level in the entrance chamber will rise...), while the other party members try to move the rocks. Again, they'll ultimately win, but you're trying to give everyone a role to play and make it exciting.

[Kvess]

The mother had contact with someone who hates the party, who directed the mother towards the party. Would that information be available to the party if they asked the right questions or rolled appropriately high on their checks? Would a sufficiently high perception check allow the party to spot a lookout at the dungeon, waiting for the party to enter?

Would you allow the party, in the right circumstance, to find out about this plot and prepare to get a jump on the cultists?

[J-H]

What else is in the dungeon?
An entire day should let them break rocks and get out, if they have tools and strength. Of course, then there are ogres and a cleric outside.
Everything in the dungeon that breathes is going to flee the rising water. This could lead to a big pile-up multi-way fight.

It's a decent plan, something you'd expect players to do, and should be fun.

Modifications:
-Glyph of Warding cast on a couple of the rocks to cause damage, explosions, or other fun times for the party.
-The ogres can be bribed or persuaded away from the cleric, maybe.
-The cleric uses Magic Mouth or something similar to taunt the party.
-What other exits to the dungeon are there? If none, there may be air pockets or air bubbles.

[Jay R]

Don't forget to put explosive runes on the first few boulders, and silent images of runes on many of the others. Also, once the boulders are in place, put a wall of stone around them to hold them there.

Might be a good idea for the boulders to be huge stones that had been previously prepared with shrink item. That way they are too heavy for the PCs or the ogres to move -- but when the ogres moved them, they only weighed 1/4,000 as much.

Yes, the cultists are possibly all clerics. But they know where to hire a few spells from an evil wizard, don't they?

[icefractal]

Decanters are surprisingly slow at filling large areas; unless this is a small dungeon you may need multiple to fill it in even a day. Also there needs to not be much drainage, so ideally a dungeon that's cut into solid stone or at least has well-maintained walls/floors. Not that these are complete impediments, just something that the party could potentially notice as unusual.

[Black Jester]

Before people say, my plan is not cool: we are playing a high stakes game and my party expects competent opponent. Also, my party is super vigilant and smart and there is a good chance, they will find a way out of this. They are lvl 6: 2 fighters, cleric, barbarian and an artificer.

Now that is an excellent wa to run a campaign - provide problems and give the players the opportunity to 'outsmart' you by finding a solution to the deathtrap dungeon.


Party got on a bad side of a powerful cult and one of the clerics wants to kill them. Cultist is smart and has a lot of assets at his disposal, also, he is quite clear on the fact that brute force will not work against the party.

Okay, why? If the cult has enough resources to prepare a dungeon, hire a handful of ogre goons, get a somewhat rare (and immensely useful) magical item, why is "hiring an assassin to poison their food" or "just lead them in a hut, barricade the doors and set that thing on fire, stabbing and shooting them when they get out" not the better option? Simple plans have the advantage that a) they require a lot less explanations allowing the players to understand quickly what's going on and b) makes your villains look less goofy and/or deranged (that is not necessariy a bad part. I really like my villains to be narcissistic buffoons who, after being the smartest person in a room once feel entitled to that idea).




Cultists henchmen kidnap a child, leaving tracks that lead to a nearby dungeon. Childs mother is super distressed, and it happens cultist guy is nearby. He offers her help - lets find a group of adventurers to get the child back from the dungeon. He leads the mother into the nearest town, to a town inn which happens to have an adventuring party in in. "Look, adventurers," the cultist points the mother to our group of PCs. Mother approaches, pleading them for help. My party, as is, rolls Insights, sees mother is not lying and take the quest. Mother leads them to the dungeon, where child is presumably hiding. Party and possible, the mother, enter the dungeon, start clearing it.

I think it is more poignant if evil cultists are not trying to use the players' (or their characters') morals against them. On the one hand, that might create the impression that the PCs get punished for caring about another human being and callousness would have been the "smart" way to handle the situation, which I would find quite unpleasant, and, on the other hand, if they are truly evil, that is probably not how they would think a trap could work.
The basic assumption of determining how other people act is by asking yourself the question "what would I do in the same situation?" This assumption, that others would react the same way I do in the same situation is not always correct, but it is a very basic approach to empathy. Now, if you have a morally deeply corrupted person, would that guy act out of misery/honour/helpfulness sprint into action? No, probably not. He might do so for a nice reward money, or the opportunity to get prestige and respect, but a good deed alone as its own reward is probably an idea that the true evil would scoff at.



Cultist is observing the entrance from a safe distance. After party enters, cultist calls upon 3 ogres he has nearby and ogres pile up massive rocks onto the entrance (what sort of checks should be made here if party wants to remove the rocks? Basically, how big should rocks be?) As a final touch, cultist uses Decanter of Endless water to slowly flood the dungeon, guarded by 3 ogres outside. After a day dungeon is flooded.

Don't use a dungeon where a simple cellar is sufficient. If you want to use a full dungeon, my solution would probably trying to recruit some its inhabitants to a makeshift alliance to break through the blocked entry ("we can either work together, or drown together. I am not any more fond of you oh, ghastly face-eating abomination, than you are of us, but we can murder each other after this crisis has be solved, deal?")
The slow death trap is a classic, feeling very pulpy and giving the players ample opportunity to come up with a solution. I would recommend a visible aid and a very clear ticking clock to increase the pressure and simulate the water rising in real time, giving the players the impression that their time will run out eventually. a large hourglass would probably work best.

[MoiMagnus]

What one humanoid can do, another can do. Ogres "only" have Strength 19. An adventuring party, who can help each other on the checks, should be able to move what three ogres moved.

It's not impossible but still much harder. As per PHB rules, every size category above Medium double the amount of weight you can carry/push/... So 3 Ogres are doing the work of 6 adventurers of Strength 19, or equivalently 10 adventurers of average Strength 11.5. [Assuming enough tools to make collaboration possible]

[ShedShadow]

Honestly, I like it. I think some of the others gave good suggestions, but I think your way is good. You could also have natural springs in the cave which lead out, but have those blocked by the ogres too, so that way the water rises faster than just one decanter of endless water.

[HoboKnight]

Now that is an excellent wa to run a campaign - provide problems and give the players the opportunity to 'outsmart' you by finding a solution to the deathtrap dungeon.

Okay, why? If the cult has enough resources to prepare a dungeon, hire a handful of ogre goons, get a somewhat rare (and immensely useful) magical item, why is "hiring an assassin to poison their food" or "just lead them in a hut, barricade the doors and set that thing on fire, stabbing and shooting them when they get out" not the better option? Simple plans have the advantage that a) they require a lot less explanations allowing the players to understand quickly what's going on and b) makes your villains look less goofy and/or deranged (that is not necessariy a bad part. I really like my villains to be narcissistic buffoons who, after being the smartest person in a room once feel entitled to that idea).


While I really appreciate all answers, I find Black Jesters answer to be best, because it is very within frame of our campaign/rules/unwritten rules. Given the enemies of PCs should be smart, let me illustrate the limitations of given ideas:
- poisoning their food: players are not common PCs. There is a good chance that a large number of them make the save
- leading them in a hut: in the current location, there is a large city, but it is Feywild and city is made of shrubbery. Super-sacred shrubbery that, if burnt, will bring a wrath of a local archfey upon the people burning it. City is surrounded by nature. Very few huts there

Maybe we come up with something good. :) Also decanter is a stupid idea. It really is a rare item.

ATM, as per plan, NPC attacker has at his disposal 11 goblin casters, mostly built around Spiked Growth/Heat metal. Ogres were added as an option, because I assume, they are not so hard to find in Feywild.

Really appreciate all the help!

[Black Jester]

While I really appreciate all answers, I find Black Jesters answer to be best, because it is very within frame of our campaign/rules/unwritten rules.

Thank you, good sir. This fool aims to please.


in the current location, there is a large city, but it is Feywild and city is made of shrubbery. Super-sacred shrubbery that, if burnt, will bring a wrath of a local archfey upon the people burning it. City is surrounded by nature. Very few huts there

So... your villains could frame the PCs for arson and isolate them, letting the archfey and their henchmen do the dirty work of (bonus points if the cult is also opposed to the archfey's rules: successfully pitching your enemies against each other is probably the closest an evil person comes to feel happiness.

Locking the player character in some sort of death trap isn't a stupid idea - especially, when this is a different kind of challenge to those they had experienced before. This might not fit every villain type (I really associate "locked in a death trap" with " now the adventurers have no choice but to listen to the evil monologue and have to acknowledge how brilliant Doctor Cultist, architect of all their pain (self-proclaimed) truly is"!

[Slipjig]

I think your biggest challenge may be the artificer. With 24 hours, he has a chance to swap his spells, and he has access to the full artificer list. With second level spells, he has access to Enlarge/Reduce (enlarging the fighters and reducing the rubble), and Rope Trick. Granted, Rope Trick is a temporary solution, but the fact that the dungeon isn't ALREADY full of water means that it isn't watertight, so it will drain eventually. Presumably the cultist will come get his decanter back at some point.

But I think this is a great challenge for a pulpy campaign. With no obvious solution, it's a good opportunity for the players to get creative.

[Olffandad]

If you have a Decanter of Endless Water, you should look up a classic Grimtooth dungeon trap.

This would probably involve luring the party to a lower chamber in the dungeon, trapping them in a chamber, and forcing them to solve a puzzle to escape the rising water before drowning.

A simple one would be the "Measure 4 gallon of water from 3 gallon and 5 gallon water jar" - before the flooding water fills the chamber and they can't activate the 4-gallon trigger to escape.

Or maybe it could be some counter-balance situation, where the room needs to fill with a certain amount of water before it tips over to reveal the next level of the dungeon, and the players need to stand fast and let it happen.

Otherwise, it's going to have to be a doozy of a trap if alert players have 24 hours of game time to solve the problem.

[Pex]

So you want to do rocks fall everyone dies.

Anyway, don't look for any flaws. Do the plan because that's what the cleric thought to do. When the party finds a way to get out they do so. That's supposed to happen. PC heroes thwart BBEG plans. That's how the game works. They also get a Decanter of Endless Water as treasure. It's just lying there after all. If they don't escape and everyone dies of suffocation or drowning, congratulate yourself on winning D&D. When a DM wants a TPK to happen, it will happen.